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Speaker 1: You're about to listen to one of our favorite episodes

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Speaker 1: of trust Me. Diane Lake joined us in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: one to discuss her experience with the Manson family. Then

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Speaker 1: scroll back in your podcast app to listen to part

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Speaker 1: two of this conversation with Diane from May nineteenth, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one. If you're new here followed the show so

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Speaker 1: you don't miss the July thirtieth th return of trust

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Speaker 1: Me on the Exactly Right Network.

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Speaker 2: Trust Me, trust.

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Speaker 3: Me, trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 1: I've never lived to you, and we never.

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Speaker 2: Have a live. If you think that one person has

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Speaker 2: all the answers, don't Welcome to trust Me, the podcast

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Speaker 2: about cults, extreme belief, and the abusive power from two

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Speaker 2: non Manson girls who've actually experienced it. I am Lola

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Speaker 2: Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth. Today our guest are

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Speaker 2: Diane Lake and Deborah Herman. Diane Lake, aka Snake, was

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Speaker 2: the youngest member of the Manson family, and Deborah is

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Speaker 2: the co author of her book called Member of the Family,

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Speaker 2: My Story of Charles Manson, Life Inside is Cold and

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Speaker 2: the Darkness that ended the Sixties. It is a great book.

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Speaker 2: Recommend it. I read it. It's episodes a two parter, folks,

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Speaker 2: because there's so much to the story. I cannot believe

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Speaker 2: that Diane was willing to come on and talk to us.

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Speaker 2: I am very grateful because this is fucking awesome. So

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Speaker 2: for everyone who hasn't read Helter Skelter and watch every

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Speaker 2: Charles Manson doc like I have, Diane did not have

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Speaker 2: anything to do with the Tate Lobyon com murders. In fact,

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Speaker 2: she was actually a key witness in the trial that

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Speaker 2: put Charlie in prison and the girls. She's going to

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Speaker 2: tell us about the tumult and trauma of her life

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Speaker 2: leading up to meeting Charles Manson, whom she knew as Charlie,

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Speaker 2: living in Los Angeles in the nineteen sixties with counterculture

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Speaker 2: parents and bouncing around communes with grown men going after her,

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Speaker 2: and what it was like when she first met Charles

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Speaker 2: Manson and his girls when she was just fourteen.

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Speaker 1: We talk about what it was like being with Charlie

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Speaker 1: dumpster diving, stealing cars, taking lsd and having sex. And

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Speaker 1: in part two next week, we'll get into Charlie's downward

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Speaker 1: spiral as he grew paranoid and began talking about a

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Speaker 1: race war, learning about the murders, testifying at the trial,

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Speaker 1: and finally facing her trauma.

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Speaker 2: I just love Diane and Deborah, both of them. They're

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Speaker 2: so great. I feel like they're us in you know,

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Speaker 2: however many years like I feel like we will be them.

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Speaker 2: We're them, They're us were them. But before we get

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Speaker 2: into that, our cultiest thing this week, we have a

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Speaker 2: story we're going to talk about that's in the news.

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Speaker 2: We sure do, and if y'all haven't heard about it,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of crazy. Megan, do you want to begin?

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there is a woman named Amy who has

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Speaker 1: started going by Mother God. It appears that started happening

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Speaker 1: around twenty eighteen. She started an ascension cult, got some followers.

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Speaker 1: But why Amy is in the news this week is

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Speaker 1: because she was discovered in a basement, mummified dead, with

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Speaker 1: makeup around her eye sockets and wrapped in Christmas light.

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Speaker 2: Let's be clear it was glitter around her eye sockets.

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Speaker 1: Apologies.

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Speaker 2: Her name was Amy Carlson and her group was called

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Speaker 2: Love Has Won. Yeah, she often went by the name

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Speaker 2: Mother God. And there were just like seven people in

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Speaker 2: the house, right, yep, and two two kids just chilling,

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Speaker 2: so let's be clear. Her body was not recently dead.

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Speaker 2: Her body was so badly decomposed. Her body was so

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Speaker 2: dead they could not even get her fingerprints.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she was extremely dead.

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Speaker 2: It's not funny, it's just so, it's just like what

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Speaker 2: was happening. So the group apparently said that she ascended. Oh,

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Speaker 2: here's some of the quotes. So on Sunday May first,

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Speaker 2: a man who appeared to be a member of the

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Speaker 2: group positive video during which he said mom has ascended

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Speaker 2: and quote completed her contract, and then he said is

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Speaker 2: the mission over?

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 2: Carlson apparently abandoned her family to teach spiritual intuitive ascension

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Speaker 2: sessions fifteen years ago, so not twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Oh apologies, my god.

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Speaker 2: I mean, she was on Doctor phil last year talking

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Speaker 2: about her group. But it doesn't look like they murdered her.

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Speaker 2: It looks like, according to one article, she was like

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Speaker 2: so obsessed with colloidal silver, which a lot of like

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Speaker 2: homeopathic medicine people, champion, But if you take too much

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Speaker 2: coloil silver, it can be poisonous.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 2: Also it can turn you blue. If you google coloidal

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Speaker 2: silver blue person, you will see that it can actually

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Speaker 2: literally permanently turn your skin blue. Which is fucking insane.

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Speaker 2: But it suspected that she was selling it as a quote,

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Speaker 2: a cure for COVID nineteen, not a cure of my friends,

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Speaker 2: and she was taking so much of it and she

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Speaker 2: had cancer, so it seems like she probably died from

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Speaker 2: these different things and then they just created this shrine

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Speaker 2: around her body, don't you.

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Speaker 1: Think, right? Right? Yeah, for sure?

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Speaker 2: And honestly, I gotta say, I was listening to some

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Speaker 2: death positive podcast last year and they were talking about

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Speaker 2: this ritual, this like death positive ritual, and I don't

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Speaker 2: remember what it's actually called, but where someone who's like

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Speaker 2: your guide through your grief comes over and you actually

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Speaker 2: let the body remain in your home for three days

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Speaker 2: and like say goodbye to your loved one properly, and

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Speaker 2: you know, cover them in beautiful things, and the practitioner

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Speaker 2: or whatever basically keeps dry ice around so the body

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Speaker 2: doesn't decompose. Actually thought that that sounded really nice. I

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Speaker 2: don't know. We're so afraid of death and we're so

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Speaker 2: like we want to avoid it, we don't want to

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Speaker 2: see it, And there's something I think that's really cool

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Speaker 2: about like facing it and making it be this loving

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Speaker 2: goodbye ritual instead of like, get it out of here.

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Speaker 2: We don't want to see that. We don't want to

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Speaker 2: know about death, you know what I mean. So that

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Speaker 2: version of it, I actually think is really cool. Letting

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Speaker 2: the body fully decompose in this bedroom, in this house

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Speaker 2: you're all staying, and maybe not as much.

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Speaker 1: But I don't understand. Was she mummified or was she decomposed?

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Speaker 2: I guess One article said mummified. One said her body

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Speaker 2: was so badly decomposed that they couldn't get her fingerprints.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know what that means. What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Well, one of I don't know. One of the interesting

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Speaker 1: things about her is that she in a past life

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Speaker 1: was Jesus.

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Speaker 2: And Marilyn Monroe. Wow, it's amazing how many people were

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Speaker 2: Marilyn Monroe in a past life and Jesus, Like, so

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Speaker 2: many people were them in a past life? Who was

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Speaker 2: it really? You know exactly which one? Who's the real one.

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Speaker 1: One of the most traumatizing moments of my life is

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Speaker 1: when my cat psychic told me my last life was

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Speaker 1: on a tugboat with my cat as my husband.

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Speaker 2: Wait, who did I'm sorry? Can you repeat that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? My cat psychic told me that my last life

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Speaker 1: I was on a tugboat and my cat was my husband.

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Speaker 2: So you have a cat psychic?

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, So.

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Speaker 2: Like a psychic who tells you about your your cat

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Speaker 2: right right, and well just cat.

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Speaker 1: I only had one session with her. It was a

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Speaker 1: birthday gift, and she was you know, what's the word,

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Speaker 1: uh not real?

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, but I figured but uh.

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Speaker 1: Hearing that your past life was just like, wow, cool,

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Speaker 1: We're like stealing food from restaurants and then going and

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Speaker 1: hiding out on our tugboat. And I was just like, no,

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Speaker 1: tell me, I was Marilyn Monroe. Tell me, I was, Jesus,

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Speaker 1: what is this? This is crazy?

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Speaker 2: You know what I would love to do. I would

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Speaker 2: love to go to a bunch of psychic people who

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Speaker 2: tell you what your past lives were, and give them

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Speaker 2: all different information about myself and see the different like

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Speaker 2: variations of past lives that come up. Clearly, y'all, I

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Speaker 2: do not believe in past lives. I know that some

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Speaker 2: of our listeners might, I personally do not, nor do

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Speaker 2: I believe that you can determine what your cat's right

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Speaker 2: past life was.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I wish I didn't believe in past lives,

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Speaker 1: but I think I do so bummer but yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: This lady, classic classic Meganaloa, Am I right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean past lives indicates that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: have to come back here again, which is just like lol.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't know, man, what do you think

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Speaker 2: you'll be in your next life?

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Speaker 1: Probably like West Kardashians child or.

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Speaker 2: Something that sounds right for you. I guess I'll come

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Speaker 2: back as jurtin the ground baby. Okay, okay, anyway, So,

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Speaker 2: can't wait to talk to Diane and Deborah. Are you ready? Ready,

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Speaker 2: Let's do it? Okay, here we go. Welcome Diane and

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Speaker 2: Deborah Dane Lake and Deborah Herman. So, Deborah, you are

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Speaker 2: the co author of Diane's book Member of the Family,

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Speaker 2: My story of Charles Manson, Life Inside his Could and

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Speaker 2: the Darkness that ended the Sixties. Can you both say

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Speaker 2: your names for our audience so they can tell the

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Speaker 2: difference between your voices.

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Speaker 5: Hello, I'm Diane Lake and I'm Deborah Herman and we're

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Speaker 5: used to like talking at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Thank you guys so much for being here. This is

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Speaker 2: truly a treat. I'm so excited to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: There's so much again into I finished your book today

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Speaker 2: and Wow, what an amazing story and so many just

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Speaker 2: incredible details. The way you painted the picture both of you, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: just really gave me a sense of what it felt

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Speaker 2: like to be there, which is something that you don't

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Speaker 2: really get to see very often. I feel like, often,

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Speaker 2: you know, stories focus on the graphic details and stuff,

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Speaker 2: but I really enjoyed reading about your life specifically. So

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Speaker 2: start us at the beginning. So, Diane, you originally grew

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Speaker 2: up in Minnesota. Your dad was an artist who was

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Speaker 2: sort of obsessed with this like California lifestyle and the

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Speaker 2: counterculture movement that was happening. Your family moves to Los Angeles,

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Speaker 2: and that's when your life kind of begins to change.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us about how your parents started doing

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Speaker 2: LSD and the first time that you took LSD my.

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Speaker 3: Mom actually got high on marijuana with the couple down

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Speaker 3: the street in Santa Monica. My dad was obviously ripe

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Speaker 3: to try it as well, so they tried it and remember,

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Speaker 3: you know, lots of laughing, and you know, they it

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Speaker 3: seemed like it was a good thing for them. I

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Speaker 3: smoked some marijuana with my dad one day, and then

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Speaker 3: he really got into Timothy Larry's whole rap about this epiphany,

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Speaker 3: you know, this new world. You know, it was this

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Speaker 3: alternative kind of reality that LSD was like a mind

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Speaker 3: opener to, you know, some truths that he had been

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Speaker 3: looking for. And so the first trip I took, I

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Speaker 3: took with my two best friends in my living room

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Speaker 3: and we read Timothy Larry's Tibetan.

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Speaker 5: Book of a Dead And I just want to interject

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Speaker 5: A lot of people focus on that point in the

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Speaker 5: book where you know, Diane, I think you must have

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Speaker 5: been what thirteen is now taking LSD and her father's

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Speaker 5: in the other room. He knows it's happening, and they

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Speaker 5: consider it in the context of today. Right, So if

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Speaker 5: you're looking at it from the context of that time frame,

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Speaker 5: which we tried to create, that whole the feeling, the time,

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Speaker 5: the place, it was very different because the purpose of

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Speaker 5: the psychedelic movement was to expand your mind, to change

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Speaker 5: the world and to make it a better place. And

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Speaker 5: so for her parents, I mean, at least presumably it

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Speaker 5: was like a sacrament. They were really thinking was going

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Speaker 5: to be good for her.

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Speaker 2: Right, It wasn't like handing her heroin and being like

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Speaker 2: go get addicted to this now child. Yeah, totally different.

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Speaker 5: Very different.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 5: In fact, Lola, you make a very good point. In

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Speaker 5: today's world, we would perceive that act as tantamount to

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Speaker 5: giving your child heroin. But that's not what the times

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Speaker 5: were like at that time. It was tune in, turn on,

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Speaker 5: drop out, and it wasn't people using drugs. Yeah, some

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Speaker 5: people were. The psychedelic movie real use exactly. It wasn't

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Speaker 5: about that, like a drink and a beer or you

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Speaker 5: know right, it was about my expansion.

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Speaker 1: What I found fascinating about it all is in the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the book just how completely different your life

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Speaker 1: was from anything like that. You know, you and your

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Speaker 1: mom are like on the sewing machine and cooking, and

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Speaker 1: suddenly it's this entirely different world. And I just can't

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Speaker 1: even imagine what that must have felt like.

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Speaker 3: I know, I have to give my mom a lot

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Speaker 3: of credit. I mean, she really trusted my dad and

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Speaker 3: she trusted God. I mean, she really felt like she

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Speaker 3: had seen an angel at the end of her bed,

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Speaker 3: you know, telling her everything was going to be okay.

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Speaker 3: When we were planning this dropping out because you know,

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Speaker 3: we've had a big yard sale and sold everything and

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Speaker 3: my dad had been converting a bread truck, which is

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Speaker 3: like a step van, you know, like a FedEx step

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Speaker 3: vand that you see.

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Speaker 2: Now, can you explain what dropping out means?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Back then, dropping out meant that you gave up

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Speaker 3: pretty much, gave up all your worldly possessions and you know,

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Speaker 3: just lived on a day to day basis, you know,

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Speaker 3: trusting God basically for your food and clothing. And you know,

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Speaker 3: at least in my parents' mind, that's what they were

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Speaker 3: aiming for. My dad was a big proponent of non materialism.

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Speaker 5: Because it was anti establishment. So many social changes were

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Speaker 5: happening during those years, during the late sixties, middle to

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Speaker 5: late sixties, culminating of course in nineteen sixty nine with

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Speaker 5: the crimes. But at that time, everybody it was the

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Speaker 5: Flower Children. They were all gathering at hate Ashbury because

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Speaker 5: that's what the LSD was doing. It was creating this

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Speaker 5: sense of connecting with one another, and so they were

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Speaker 5: just letting life come and they were getting out of

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Speaker 5: the establishment, which.

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Speaker 1: Is awesome, Like LSD. I love LSD. It's great, it's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Like what, yeah, you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to take it. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: do it.

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Speaker 1: There's a line.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, but that was you know people again. You

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Speaker 5: can't look at it through the lens of twenty twenty one. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: you have to look at it as what social changes

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Speaker 5: were happening right before the sixties and the changing tide.

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Speaker 5: You had a very repressed post war society in the fifties.

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Speaker 5: I have an imprint in my publishing company of TV classics,

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Speaker 5: and I watch the old shows. You know, her Mother

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Speaker 5: and Diane. They were like the role of women and

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Speaker 5: they were doing the women stuff and everything was changing, right.

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Speaker 2: The descriptions of being in Los Angeles in the sixties

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Speaker 2: sound so exciting. Yeah, I mean, you're going to these

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Speaker 2: love ins, You're seeing the Beatles at your stadium, You're

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Speaker 2: hanging out in Laurel Canyon and with all the hippies,

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Speaker 2: and everyone's like happy and loving, and at least on

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Speaker 2: the surface, it's like you're living this communal lifestyle in

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Speaker 2: these various forms before you ever meet Charles Manson. So

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Speaker 2: like the people coming over and living at your house

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Speaker 2: and you know you're used to a communal situation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, exactly. My dad got involved with the Oracle.

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Speaker 3: They a group of them wanted to start the newspaper

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Speaker 3: that was successful in San Francisco in Los Angeles, and

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Speaker 3: he was an artist and he got he started doing

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Speaker 3: those day glow posters, Oh fun, the day glow the

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Speaker 3: neon psychods, and so he was doing that for them,

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Speaker 3: and he was, you know, in their art department. And

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Speaker 3: then they lost their lease or whatever at their house,

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Speaker 3: and so a bunch of them moved in with us,

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Speaker 3: and then the paper kind of dwindled. And it was

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Speaker 3: through the oracle that my dad and a couple of

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Speaker 3: the other guys decided, Hey, let's you know, go on

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Speaker 3: the road. Let's drop out, right, And so they bought

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Speaker 3: these bread trucks and started converting them into like a camper.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 5: And just to see how exciting that sounds to you

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Speaker 5: as a young person in today's world, everything was beautiful

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Speaker 5: until it was car was what happened to you when

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Speaker 5: you went with that guy to San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: Well, a lot of water had gone under the bridge

305
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Speaker 3: at that point. But my parents were basically arguing about

306
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Speaker 3: what we were just talking about the role of a woman,

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Speaker 3: the role of a man. It was changing, right, And

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Speaker 3: they weren't arguing in a mean way, but they were

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Speaker 3: just philosophically discussing it, you know, and it did kind

310
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Speaker 3: of overlap into you know, what are the responsibility? My

311
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 3: dad was always trying to get my mom to come

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Speaker 3: and sit on the couch with him and read and

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Speaker 3: listen to Alan Ginsburg and you know, all these enlightened

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Speaker 3: you know, Autus Huxley, all these enlightened people. But she

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Speaker 3: had she was a domestic at heart, you know, she

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Speaker 3: liked keeping a nice house and you know, cooking, providing

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Speaker 3: for her family. She had three children, right, I was

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Speaker 3: the oldest. Anyway, At one point we had separated and

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Speaker 3: they had given me a note, you know, basically giving

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Speaker 3: me emancipation as a miner to live with this couple.

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Speaker 3: And then they went to the Grand Canyon and then

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Speaker 3: they came back and they were going to go to

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Speaker 3: Big Sir, and they said, hey, you know, they came

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Speaker 3: by and said you want to go with us, and

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Speaker 3: it was like yeah, So I went to Big Sir

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Speaker 3: with them. And it was there at Essalon that I

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Speaker 3: met this man, I don't know, like thirteen years older

328
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Speaker 3: than me, and when you're only fourteen, that's considerable, you know. Yeah,

329
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Speaker 3: And he was going to go to San Francisco and

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Speaker 3: you know, he asked me to go with him, and

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Speaker 3: I said, sure, yeah, I wanted to go to San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: By that point, I had enough people that you know,

333
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Speaker 3: felt that San Francisco Haye Ashbury area was the scene,

334
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,680
Speaker 3: you know, that was the place to go. And so

335
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Speaker 3: I went with him, and he ended up being a

336
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Speaker 3: drug dealer and left me in his house for you know,

337
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,520
Speaker 3: basically two weeks on my own, and I ended up

338
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Speaker 3: getting really sick, and when he came back, he took

339
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Speaker 3: me back to Big sur and they nursed me back

340
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Speaker 3: to health. And then I basically escaped because they lived

341
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Speaker 3: behind locked gates and they didn't think I was ready

342
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Speaker 3: to leave, and so but I was ready to leave,

343
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Speaker 3: and so I hopped the fence and stuck out my

344
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Speaker 3: thumb and miraculously got a ride for like three miles

345
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Speaker 3: by probably some lecherous old man, and I wasn't cooperating,

346
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Speaker 3: so he dropped me off, and then I stuck my

347
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Speaker 3: thumb out again and I got this incredible you know,

348
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Speaker 3: I got these three angel women in a white Cadillac

349
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Speaker 3: picked me up, and they wanted to go to Hollywood

350
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Speaker 3: and they wanted to meet Dean Martin and one of

351
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,679
Speaker 3: the gallons. They were from New Zealand and anyway, so

352
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Speaker 3: I knew the way to Hollywood. I knew enough, you know,

353
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Speaker 3: basically Pacific Coast Highway. I knew some people there. I

354
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Speaker 3: got them to the Sunset Strip and they dropped me

355
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Speaker 3: off there, and then I went to visit a you know,

356
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Speaker 3: a person or I knew somebody that knew somebody I

357
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 3: was looking for, you know, a friend of mine and

358
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Speaker 3: my parents, you know, like where are they? Because they

359
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 3: they weren't, you know, I didn't know where they went.

360
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Speaker 5: I left, I left.

361
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Speaker 4: Them, and they weren't when I went back three weeks later,

362
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Speaker 4: and so then it turned out they were at the

363
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Speaker 4: hog Farm, so that I ended up at the hog Farm.

364
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Speaker 3: You know, another iconic commune back then. It was Hugh

365
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 3: Romney and Bonnie Jean, his wife, were kind of the leaders,

366
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Speaker 3: and you know they later he round me later became

367
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Speaker 3: Wavy Gravy.

368
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Speaker 2: Wavy Gravy, you.

369
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,719
Speaker 3: Know, of Woodstock fame, and they weren't too happy with

370
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,399
Speaker 3: me showing up. My parents were happy to see me,

371
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Speaker 3: but you know, the community below wasn't too happy with

372
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Speaker 3: this commune living on this hill, and so they had

373
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Speaker 3: posted guards you know, to not let anybody go up there.

374
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Speaker 3: And so here I am, you know, this underage, sexually

375
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Speaker 3: active girl. So they had this little talk with me

376
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Speaker 3: that they weren't comfortable with my being there because I

377
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,120
Speaker 3: was jailbait, you know for some of the young musicians

378
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 3: and the young men coming up to the farm, which

379
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 3: they called it.

380
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Speaker 2: Right, it's the girl's fault when an age and appropriate

381
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Speaker 2: man wants to have sex with her, he must kick

382
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Speaker 2: the girl out, not the men.

383
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Speaker 5: Sorry, go on right, right, So, and we appreciate your

384
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,919
Speaker 5: perspective on that, because it was very true the women,

385
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 5: it was it was always going to be her fault

386
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 5: because she was an underage you know what. It was

387
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:07,200
Speaker 5: supposedly the sexual revolution, m but that was so one sided, right,

388
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 5: that's my opinion.

389
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 3: I mean, one of Charlie's things was always, you know,

390
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 3: you get rid of your inhibitions. So in other words,

391
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 3: spread your legs far and wide and do my bidding right,

392
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 3: and if you don't, it's your hang up. It's your

393
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 3: hang up.

394
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Speaker 1: That's so.

395
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Speaker 2: I just can't imagine how crazy that must have made

396
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,479
Speaker 2: you feel. Because free love everyone's doing. If like, if

397
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 2: I'm not participating in this movement, or I don't feel

398
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: comfortable with the sexual revolution, Like what's wrong with me

399
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: that I have personal boundaries? You know, I just can't

400
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 2: imagine how difficult it must have been at that time.

401
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 5: Oh there were no boundaries.

402
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 3: That wasn't even on our rainar.

403
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 5: Then this is your generations right right, benefit of boundaries,

404
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 5: right right, part of the whole.

405
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 3: Knee too thing. I mean, like, you know, People Magazine

406
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 3: did this three page spread on me, and when the

407
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 3: book came out, it came out in the same issue

408
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 3: where Harvey Weinstein and all his accusers were on the

409
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 3: front page, right, And I was like this little one

410
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 3: by two inch blurb on the front page. But it

411
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 3: really was hand in glove with the whole me Too

412
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 3: movement because I was coming out of my shame of

413
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 3: being associated with what with being taken advantage of right?

414
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 3: You know, It's like I was the one that had

415
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 3: the shame. I was the one that didn't want to

416
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 3: be associated and I mean I still really don't, but

417
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 3: it was like that's what these women were coming up against,

418
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 3: you know, is that hey, wait a minute, I was

419
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 3: taken advantage of right. They you know, the casting couch thing, yes,

420
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 3: is very you know, we all knew that was true,

421
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 3: that we just did. I didn't realize the consequences and

422
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 3: what it was really doing that it was the man.

423
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 5: That was in charge of all of that, right, you know.

424
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 3: And Charlie. Charlie wanted to be a pimp. You know,

425
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 3: he learned how to be a pimp when he was

426
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 3: in jail so that he could come out and he

427
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 3: could control women.

428
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 2: I learned that from your book. That's such an interesting

429
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 2: fact that he, like, he's just straight up used those

430
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 2: tactics very intentionally.

431
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 3: And we all were broken in some fashion or other.

432
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 2: Well vulnerable, yeah.

433
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 3: Had been abused or you know, had had been kicked

434
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 3: out of our family. I mean I was sort of

435
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,199
Speaker 3: really kicked out of my family. I think that Bonnie,

436
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 3: Jean and Hugh had a couple of friends come up

437
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 3: and kind of very nicely asked me would I like

438
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 3: to come and live with them? You know, and then

439
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 3: they're the ones that introduced me to Charlie.

440
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 2: I mean, we don't have to dwell on this part

441
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 2: of all, but you did experience so much abuse and

442
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 2: so many inappropriate relationships already by the time that you fourteen,

443
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 2: and reading about that couple made me really angry. I

444
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: don't I can't imagine how you must have felt in

445
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 2: your life. But we'll get into that in a minute.

446
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, what a vulnerable position to be in. And

447
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: fourteen is so young. It is so young.

448
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 5: I'll tell you something, Lola. When I started working with Diane,

449
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 5: I didn't know what to expect. I was just thrilled

450
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 5: and we connected and we started taking this journey together

451
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 5: where I would be interviewing her and getting the story.

452
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 5: And what was so shocking is that during the first

453
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 5: interview Diane was very kind of flat affect and would

454
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 5: just tell you as if she was one place and

455
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 5: her body was somewhere else. And then she told the

456
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 5: story that people would have to read the book, but

457
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 5: there's a very vivid scene of her childhood and she said,

458
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 5: she told me that particular story and then just glossed

459
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 5: over it. And I said, wait, wait, wait, back up,

460
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 5: do you realize what happened to you? And there was

461
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 5: lack of awareness And it wasn't really until we took

462
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 5: the whole journey together where Diane was able to reflect

463
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 5: back and say, you know, I was a victim, right,

464
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 5: So there wasn't awareness of inappropriate relationships and even how

465
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 5: Manson treated her. There was a lot of brainwashing.

466
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yes, so you're at the hog Farm,

467
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: Wavy Gravy essentially kicks you out. Tell us what happens next.

468
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: Then this other couple, and I think that they were

469
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: friends of Hugh and Bonnie Jean, showed up and invited

470
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: me to come and stay with them. And they didn't

471
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 3: live at the hog Farm, and so it's like, yeah,

472
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: because I didn't feel welcome. They didn't kick me out.

473
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 3: They said I could stay there, but they wanted me

474
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 3: to sleep in the attic, right, and I just I

475
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 3: just didn't feel welcome. And my parents, you know, had

476
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: already given me emancipation, and I'd been separated from them

477
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 3: for you know, a month or so, and they didn't

478
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 3: unfold me. Like I said, they were struggling with their

479
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 3: new roles as men and women, and the kind of

480
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: consensus there was it takes a village, which I think

481
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton really coined that phrase. But that was the idea,

482
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 3: is that the adults in the commune kind of collectively

483
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 3: looked over and after all the children.

484
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 5: Or not or not right or not. But I mean

485
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 5: that was the idea.

486
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 2: Until you become of jailbait age and then and then

487
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: you're up or then you're in the attic.

488
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 3: Right, and so anyway, so I went with this other couple,

489
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 3: but I didn't enjoy being with them. They shot speed

490
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 3: and I wasn't interested in doing anything besides smoking some

491
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 3: marijuana and taking melosty. And so they invited me to

492
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 3: come along with them to this to hey, meet this

493
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 3: groovy guy and his girls, is basically was the invitation.

494
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 3: And so I went with them and and I walked

495
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,959
Speaker 3: in and it was this house that I'd already lived

496
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 3: in with other people, so I knew the house that

497
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 3: I'd never heard of. Charlie and the girls and Isa right, yeah,

498
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 3: at the at the base of the canyon, just in

499
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: this little you know, it's now like a park. It's

500
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: like a preserve or a reserve type park. Anyway, I

501
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: walked in, and I think it was Lynette that came

502
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: up and went, Diane, you know, Charlie, Diane's here.

503
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 2: It's like, what you're like, who.

504
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: Are you right?

505
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 5: How do you know me?

506
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 3: It was magical and flabbergasting all at the same time.

507
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: And Charlie got up from the circle and came and

508
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: offered me a drink of his root beer and embraced

509
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 3: me and you know, welcome, hey, come and join us

510
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 3: in the circle, which was, you know, what we did

511
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 3: most of the time, especially in the evening. We'd gather

512
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 3: in a circle and Charlie would plays guitar and play

513
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: sing his songs and we would sing along.

514
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 1: Wow.

515
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: So and Lynette is squeaky correct, Yeah, yeah, Okay, this

516
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: redhead girl comes up and is like so excited to

517
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 2: meet you, and you don't know who she is, but

518
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: you're suddenly welcomed by this whole group of strangers. What

519
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: was your first impression of Tarlie? Like, what did he

520
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 2: seem like? What was the vibe?

521
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 3: Fun? Totally, you know, playful. He wasn't an imposing figure

522
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 3: at all. He's a short little guy, you know, or

523
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 3: was a short little man, and you know, with curly hair.

524
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 3: And really, I think I think we've analyze this. I

525
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 3: think he was like thirty three. Well, my youngest son

526
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 3: is thirty one, and I certainly don't think of him

527
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 3: as a lecherous old man, you know, and my oldest

528
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 3: son is thirty seven. But even when he was thirty three,

529
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: I mean, it was like, oh you know, handsome, and

530
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: also you need.

531
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 5: To understand there was an archetype of the long haired

532
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 5: guitar playing guru type person at that time, and he

533
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 5: would have fit into every group I knew, even though

534
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 5: I was just younger enough that I missed some of

535
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 5: that early mid sixties. But everybody, you know, if you

536
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 5: were at a party at your friend's house and somebody

537
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 5: took out a guitar and they had long hair, you

538
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 5: were all enamored. And I mean the guy with the guitar.

539
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 5: That's why they played the guitar right, they could get

540
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 5: the girls.

541
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: At that time.

542
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 5: He did not look or behave in ways that were

543
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 5: so outrageous. He was also so love bombing with each

544
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 5: of the women that even if he told them, hey,

545
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 5: I just got out of jail, it was like he

546
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 5: gas lit them in a way that made them feel

547
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 5: sorry for him. And all the women wanted to take

548
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 5: care of him and nurture him. And it wasn't like

549
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 5: today we might say, oh, you just got out of

550
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 5: a stint in jail and say, well, maybe I shouldn't

551
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 5: hang out with you. It wasn't like that at all.

552
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 3: And it was like for forgery. Forgery, and see.

553
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 5: How they can say now even today. Oh, it wasn't

554
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 5: that big a deal, right, he just was forging you

555
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 5: know why he wasn't He was a perfectly nice psychopath.

556
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: I mean right, No, when I could see how if

557
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: you're already rebelling against the system and that's like part

558
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: of your whole idea, your worldview, then that would be okay.

559
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was perfect for it. And I'm sure he

560
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 5: was very sexy, and he had trained himself to appeal

561
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 5: to women. And from my research, because Diane, when we

562
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 5: wrote the book, it was Diane's memories, we did nothing

563
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 5: to pollute that. Diane hadn't seen movies. She maybe read

564
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 5: Helter Skelter back when it came out in the day,

565
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,959
Speaker 5: but she hadn't seen all the videos and interviews. So

566
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 5: I was doing the research on the side. I read

567
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 5: one account at one point one of his girlfriends basically said,

568
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 5: you're a terrible lover, and she taught him how to

569
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 5: please the women, and then he went back into jail

570
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 5: and learned at the feet of the pimps right how

571
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 5: to control women. So he was training himself, right.

572
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: And one of the things I saw on the book

573
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 2: was that one of the things the pimps taught him

574
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 2: was to make the women feel really special and make

575
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: them feel really loved, which obviously came very much into

576
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: play later on Diane.

577
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 5: I'm sure you can attest to that he had that. Damn.

578
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a very special lover. I mean he

579
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 3: often would start with this, just this give and take

580
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: of your hands, you know, standing in front of each other.

581
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: You know, it was a dance. It was sweet. It

582
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 3: was to me, it was it was.

583
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 5: I remember memory of him in the early early day.

584
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

585
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: Right, you're putting your hands together, like touching hands and

586
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: moving them around. Is that kind of like?

587
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 3: Yeah? And it was just like this give and take,

588
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 3: you know, it.

589
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: Was it was like he was leading, right, he.

590
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: Was leading, but not forcefully. I mean it was it

591
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: was a dance. It was far play, but it was

592
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 3: very sweet, you know, and it was very gentle intimate.

593
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: It seems very intimate.

594
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, he really got under under their skin.

595
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 3: Yeah. It wasn't a wam bam, thank you ma'am.

596
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 5: You know, right, made feel like they were the only

597
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 5: one in his life.

598
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: M So you spend this wonderful night with him, how

599
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: do you end up actually coming to stay with them?

600
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 3: I kind of went back and forth for a few weeks.

601
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 3: They were planning this bus trip to New Mexico and Arizona,

602
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: and it was like right after Thanksgiving, and I didn't

603
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 3: want to be left behind. So the gentleman that had

604
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 3: introduced me to Charlie, Richard getting you know, after this

605
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 3: back and forth for a couple of weeks, he said,

606
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 3: you know, I don't I get a bad vibe. You know,

607
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 3: I don't think you should go with them, But I

608
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 3: didn't want to be left behind. It I didn't, you know,

609
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 3: where am I going to go? I didn't want to

610
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: go live with Richard and Leegre, and I didn't want

611
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: to go back to the I didn't feel welcome at

612
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 3: the hog Farm, and my parents weren't really paving the

613
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 3: way for me, you know, because they'd emancipated me, and

614
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 3: I was on my own, and I was the oldest

615
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: of the family. And I had always been very capable

616
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 3: and very an a student, and I'd always been very

617
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 3: independent and capable. Right, it's a new world. So anyway,

618
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 3: that that's what happened. So I went with them.

619
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: Can you tell us real quick why they recognized you?

620
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 3: Well, it turned out that Charlie had gone up to

621
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: the hog farm while I was in San Francisco. And

622
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 3: of course, you know, you've got two leaders, you know,

623
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 3: you've got you round me and you've got Charlie, two egos.

624
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 3: You know, it was like there, there wasn't like a

625
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 3: mutual and they didn't you admired And they called him

626
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: black Bus Charlie.

627
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 2: But my mom because he had a bus that was black.

628
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, my mom loved the girls and they all went

629
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 3: on a bus trip. They went on a bus trip

630
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 3: out to the desert looking for gas tanks. Charlie was

631
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 3: obsessed with gasoline. He was always, yeah, he always was

632
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 3: looking for gas tanks that he was going to weld

633
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 3: to the bottom of the bus so that he could

634
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,479
Speaker 3: have this you know, unlimited or you know, as much

635
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 3: of an unlimited supply of gas as possible. And then

636
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 3: as he like descended into madness, he often talked about

637
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 3: digging this huge pit and hijacking a gas tanker and

638
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 3: burying it in the desert so that we would have Yeah, no,

639
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: I mean that was one of his crazy illusions or delusions.

640
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 5: He even mentioned it as an aside comment in the

641
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 5: transcripts of the trial, where and people didn't really catch

642
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 5: it what he was talking about. But because I was

643
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 5: so familiar with Diane's story, and then I also did

644
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 5: the book Inside the Mansengery, and it examined all of

645
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 5: the transcripts and makes.

646
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 3: Us oh, it showed up again.

647
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 5: It does where he says, well, I just want to

648
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 5: go back to the desert and look for gasoline and whatever.

649
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: Oh what an interesting detail. Yeah, it's fascinating.

650
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 5: And it's not something people would notice if you didn't

651
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 5: understand his obsession. And it was all about going off

652
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 5: the grid.

653
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: Really, ultimately, it always is, isn't it.

654
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, because my parents had had this encounter with him,

655
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 3: and I was in San Francisco and they talked about

656
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 3: that we're going to go to San Francisco. Charlie and

657
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 3: the girls, We're going to go to San Francisco. My

658
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: mom gave them my picture. They gave them a photo

659
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: of me, and you're like, Hey, when you're in San Francisco,

660
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 3: look for this girl. You know, it's my daughter, you know.

661
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 3: And whether you know it's I don't know if she

662
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 3: said bring her back, you know, or just you know,

663
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 3: see how she's doing. I'm sure she was worried about me.

664
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I know she was worried about me.

665
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 3: So it was like either bring her back or you know,

666
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 3: bring me a report or something, right, and so but

667
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 3: I didn't know that. I didn't have that conversation with

668
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 3: my mom before I met Charlie and the girls. And

669
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 3: so when I walked in, see, they already knew.

670
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 5: Me blind magic like magic Charlie, which, of course he

671
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 5: used all of his seeming miracles to continue to create

672
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 5: the illusion that kept his people loyal.

673
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 4: You know.

674
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, I was so fascinated by the postulating, the

675
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: term postulating and what that meant for you guys, I mean,

676
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: can you explain that?

677
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 3: Is well, his idea of postulating was just like I mean,

678
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 3: I think that there was another, you know, leader of

679
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 3: something that talked about positive thinking. So think about something

680
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 3: positively and it will come to you. Well that's what

681
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 3: postulating was. So it was like if we needed money,

682
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: if we needed clothes, if we needed food, if we

683
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: needed gas, you know, we would think positive kind of

684
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 3: like a meditation. And I mean it's it's like a prayer,

685
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 3: but it wasn't called a prayer, right, you know, it

686
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 3: was it was just sending out into the universe your

687
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: needs and it was kind of suspect in some ways.

688
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 3: But I mean later when I thought about it as

689
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: a mature adult, But back then we just thought it

690
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: was like, Wow, he's really powerful.

691
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 2: Because your needs were getting met because you would he

692
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: would always get right.

693
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 3: And I'm sure that he manipulated some of that.

694
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.

695
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 5: That was also how people were thinking. And LSD would

696
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 5: expand your idea, your consciousness and this sense of connectedness

697
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 5: to all everything, the rocks, the universe, right, and it

698
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 5: was like they were creating this, you know, this manifestation

699
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 5: of anything that they needed. And that's also the idea

700
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 5: of going off, going away from the establishment and living

701
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 5: off the land and everybody loves each other, and you know,

702
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 5: it was that was the mindset.

703
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: How often was he on LSD.

704
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 3: We took honesty pretty frequently, I think that. But he

705
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: had a couple of bad trips. I remember there was

706
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 3: one really chaotic trip. We had decorated the back ranch

707
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 3: house with tapestries, you know on the walls and the ceilings,

708
00:38:54,760 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 3: you know, the Indian tapestries and you know, mattresses. It

709
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 3: was you know, we were gonna have had a special

710
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 3: guest musician who played the c tar. That's all I

711
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 3: remember is we took the LSD. We're all ready. I

712
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 3: think it was Paul Watkins that was on the cetar

713
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: and he plucked one string and it just was like

714
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 3: and I was gone. I mean, I like followed that

715
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 3: note into infinity.

716
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 5: Wow, I'm not encouraging the use of drugs a little

717
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 5: too fun.

718
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 3: I can't remember anything until I woke up in the

719
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: morning and the place was a shambles.

720
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 5: Well, and there's another thing that Diane remembered and also

721
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 5: was confirmed through other research, is that it's possible that

722
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 5: some of the reason that Manson ultimately did descend into

723
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 5: madness was he did have a really bad trip. It

724
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 5: was a messionic trip where he claims to have relived

725
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 5: the Crucifixion. And also, which is not uncommon, Alan Ginsberg,

726
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 5: when he took his LSD trip, suddenly became messionic. So

727
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 5: the whole generation of people were following someone who basically

728
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 5: had a psychotic break, right, And so you think of

729
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 5: it that way, and the followers or the family they

730
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 5: were taking LSD. He was administering it regularly, but he

731
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 5: didn't always take.

732
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 3: It m.

733
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 5: Or he didn't take as much right, so he could.

734
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: Be in control.

735
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 3: Yes, especially after that trip and then there had been

736
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 3: I mean the trip, I think the trip where he

737
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 3: experienced the crucifixion that he he was the messiah on

738
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 3: across took place in San Francisco. But then he I

739
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 3: remember a trip when we were at the Spiral Stirk

740
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 3: House where he re enacted.

741
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 5: That right is subconscious, you know.

742
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 3: And on LSD, you know, you see these light streams

743
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 3: from your hands and it just an ore and so

744
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 3: it's you know, it's very you see lots of light

745
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 3: reflected and so with anyway, so he had us convinced,

746
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 3: you know that we were seeing like a stigmata. I'm

747
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 3: sure that he used that.

748
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: Can you paint a picture of just what life was

749
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: like at first once you're living with them, Like what

750
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: are you doing every day?

751
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 3: Well, you know, everybody needs to eat and go to

752
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 3: the bathroom and shower, and so a lot of you know,

753
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 3: your life is revolves around you know, procuring and taking

754
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 3: care of those needs. So cooking, you know, we did

755
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: cooking and cleaning, and we made love and in the

756
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 3: evening we'd get in the circle and sing songs and

757
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 3: he'd give us a his little talk tos, which you know,

758
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 3: we're often about getting rid of your inhibitions and just

759
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 3: the whole new alternative culture kind of mindset. So it

760
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 3: wasn't it wasn't a total break from what I'd kind

761
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 3: of heard before, but it had just taken on, you know,

762
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: a new life. And as we moved along, he became

763
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 3: more protective. You know, he discouraged outside relationships unless I mean,

764
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: if he were going to bring somebody into the family.

765
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 3: But he was very selective.

766
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 2: Was he very selective about the women as well, or

767
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: just mostly selective about the men?

768
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: I think mostly the guys, Yeah, yeah, but I think

769
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 3: the girls, you know, the girls too. I mean, he

770
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 3: wanted he wanted them all to be beautiful, you know,

771
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 3: because as things moved forward, you know, and we got

772
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 3: closer to going to the desert, and once we, you know,

773
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 3: were introduced to the desert place, he'd always had been

774
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 3: talking about this black white race war. And it wasn't

775
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: until the White album came out, but it got nicknamed,

776
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 3: you know, Helter Skelter. But the whole idea he wanted beautiful.

777
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 3: He wanted us to make beautiful children and repopulate the world,

778
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 3: you know, after the apocalypse because that's basically what it

779
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 3: was going to be, you know, and then the black

780
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 3: Man wasn't going to be able to handle it, and

781
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 3: then he was they were going to ask for Charlie's help.

782
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: You know, right, I don't know.

783
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like when I talk about it,

784
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 3: I just I think, you know, oh my gosh.

785
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: He sprinkled a little bit of everything in there.

786
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 3: Yeah he did. And I think he I'm a special

787
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 3: teacher or I'm a retired special education teacher specialized in autism,

788
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 3: and you can get stuck, you know, you can get

789
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 3: stuck in these mindsets. And I think that's kind of

790
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 3: what happened to him, you know, whether he was on

791
00:43:59,040 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 3: the spectrum or not.

792
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: It's interesting that was like gasoline sounds like his special

793
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: interest or something. You know.

794
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did have these fixations.

795
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 3: Have these elevators, tractors, dinosaurs, whatever, you know. I mean,

796
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: they get fixated on.

797
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: Something and then that brain on LSD all the time. Yeah.

798
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 3: Right, So but he I think he had an auditory.

799
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 3: Uh he was kind of a savant auditorily, which to

800
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 3: me that meant that to me, what that meant was

801
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 3: kids with autism, I mean they can recite whole movies,

802
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 3: so stuff that he would hear, and he wasn't a

803
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: good reader. Lynette would have to read stuff for him.

804
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 3: But I think auditorily, I mean, he was as a

805
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 3: young person exposed to all kinds of sermons and then scientology,

806
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 3: and I mean and in jail music and so I

807
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 3: think that so he had all this auditory input that

808
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 3: I think he you just regurgitations kind it out right.

809
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: Yes, and he would mix it up, you know, mirror

810
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: whatever the person he was talking to need it probably

811
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: little snippets.

812
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 3: I think the little snippets of what he'd heard formed

813
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 3: his life reality on reality. He was gifted in that,

814
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 3: you know. And even with music, you know, he didn't

815
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 3: read music, you know, it was all auditory. So I

816
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 3: think he had this kind of almost a savant ability

817
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 3: to remember things auditorily.

818
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: That makes total sense. What was your relationship with him?

819
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: Like he'd be very kind obviously, but then he would

820
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: suddenly hit you right and like when you weren't expecting

821
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 2: it or like can you just describe that dynamic a

822
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: little bit?

823
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that as time went on and he

824
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 3: you know, he started having more control and and like

825
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 3: a bigger delusion or you know, idea of where we

826
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 3: were going or where he wanted us to go as

827
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 3: a family, and I just I don't think I was

828
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 3: totally on board, which I thank god, I thank god

829
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 3: that I wasn't right. And recently I kind of got

830
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 3: reacquainted with Catherine Chaer Gypsy, and she's ten years older

831
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 3: than me. She was kind of tasked with watching out

832
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 3: for me, or watching over me for Charlie.

833
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 2: Keeping an eye on you, keeping an eye on me.

834
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was also watching out for you because of Charlie,

835
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 5: because she saw that he was mistreating you.

836
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 3: But she said that I would, you know, I would,

837
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 3: I would listen that I would lose my focus and

838
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 3: I would just get up and wander off and like whatever.

839
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 3: So and I think that really it bothered him, and

840
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 3: I wasn't setting a good example, so he would make

841
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 3: an example.

842
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 5: And just think about it. You've got a cult leader, right.

843
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 2: You weren't submissive enough.

844
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 5: She would roll her eyes and kind of say, Charlie,

845
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 5: that doesn't make sense.

846
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 3: It was very cool to re connect with somebody that

847
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 3: knew me back then who was older. I mean ten

848
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 3: years older. That's significant, you know. And she had a

849
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 3: much wiser, more worldly view of everything.

850
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: Wow, that's so great that you guys got to connect, right, right.

851
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 3: I mean, this has been this has been such an

852
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 3: incredible journey since since I wrote the book, and you know,

853
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 3: the different interviews, and it's not just regurgitating what I

854
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 3: wrote in the book. I mean, it's like there's been

855
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 3: this whole because now I've read and seen more interviews

856
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 3: and been in, you know, quite a few documentaries and

857
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,919
Speaker 3: seeing other people's tape, and so the whole thing has

858
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 3: really kind of, you know, evolved into a more mature,

859
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 3: deeper understanding of what happened to me and what happened

860
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 3: to him. And you know, it's still kind of hard

861
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,760
Speaker 3: for me to understand how the murders happened.

862
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, but you know what's interesting, working with Diane and

863
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 5: doing so much research and then looking at the bigger

864
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 5: picture of cult behavior, it helped me understand how these

865
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 5: things can happen. And I went into working with Diane

866
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 5: with the question of how could this happen? Because these

867
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 5: were troubled young women. But they weren't what you would

868
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 5: think as maybe a throwaway or a young criminal, or

869
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 5: you know, they were not They were from mostly from affluent, homes, intelligent,

870
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 5: and people need to understand that when you have an

871
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 5: unequal power relationship, this kind of brainwashing or ultimate abuse

872
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 5: or control can happen in very It comes in many

873
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 5: many forms.

874
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 2: Exactly, anyone can be vulnerable, having a vulnerable moment in

875
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,720
Speaker 2: their life where they find a person or a group

876
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 2: that seems to be the answer to their problems and

877
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 2: that it really seems like what you needed at that

878
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 2: time in your life. Diane was a family and voila, Diane, Diane,

879
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: We've been waiting for you, like booms, there's a family,

880
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 2: you know, especially that age, I mean, gosh, yeah, fourteen

881
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 2: is so young.

882
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 3: You want to belong. Everybody wants to belong to something,

883
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,879
Speaker 3: and that's how gangs and isis. And you know all

884
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 3: of these these terrorists, even terrorist groups, you know, they absolutely, yeah,

885
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 3: get get sucked in because they want to be part

886
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 3: of something bigger than themselves and to feel We all

887
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 3: do in some I think in some.

888
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 2: Ways absolutely, I know I do, and yeah, debort to

889
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: feel special. Absolutely, I want to feel special. I want

890
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: to belong Topically.

891
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 5: Cult leaders may not even start out knowing they are

892
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 5: a cult leader, but what happens is with the progression

893
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 5: of that adulation from any group of people, it will

894
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 5: ultimately lead to having power over others and the mindset ultimately,

895
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 5: you know, just like in a domestic violence situation, the

896
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 5: people become isolated from the outside world. They're the only

897
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 5: information they're receiving is from the leader and the group,

898
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 5: so they're all kind of harvesting the same information and

899
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 5: it becomes a reality. And that's why someone from the

900
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 5: outside can look at the mindset and some of the

901
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 5: things that Diane and the others were believing at the time,

902
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 5: and they were believing it, and to the outside, it's

903
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 5: how how could you believe that? But when you're on

904
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 5: the inside, it is reality.

905
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 2: I mean I know that firsthand.

906
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 5: I know you too.

907
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 2: You know, I'm curious about your relationship with the other girls.

908
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: How was that In the beginning?

909
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 3: I would say I was the closest really to Lynette

910
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 3: Squeaky Squeaky, Yeah, yeah, Lynette and Charlie and I and

911
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 3: then Patty. I wasn't ever really that close to Susan Atkins.

912
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 3: But Patty was like the mother Earth. I mean, she

913
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 3: was like the salt of the earth. I mean, she

914
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 3: was just so down to earth. So incredibly down to earth.

915
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 3: So I felt close to her. When Leslie came on

916
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 3: the scene, I didn't feel I just didn't have anything

917
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 3: in common with her other than Charlie or text, you know,

918
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 3: because I never went to high school and so and

919
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 3: she was like homecoming queen or a princess or something,

920
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 3: you know, just totally I had no clue. I had

921
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 3: no clue what that was all about. And so to me,

922
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 3: she just seemed like, you know, very shallow and aloof

923
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 3: and just a silly girl. I don't know. I mean,

924
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 3: you know, she wasn't down to earth. You know, she

925
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 3: was very flighty, and Sandy was a prima donna to me.

926
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 3: You know, she was a spoiled rich girl and you know,

927
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 3: who felt like she'd been abused by her family. She

928
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 3: was kind of manipulative, and she wasn't my best friend.

929
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's just cool to hear this perspective,

930
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 2: because when you hear manson girls, you picture this like

931
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: monolith of the girls with the crosses, and they are

932
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 2: zombies and they're all have the exact same personality. But no,

933
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 2: like everyone was so different from each other.

934
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 3: But I had been you know, I hadn't really been

935
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 3: part of that aspect at all.

936
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 5: Oh, you need to understand that what you saw at

937
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 5: the trial was very much orchestrated from behind the scenes

938
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 5: between Manson Squeaky. There was a lot of manipulation of

939
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 5: the legal system because they had a goal, and that

940
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 5: was to get him out.

941
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: Right, of course, So there's a whole.

942
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 5: Backstory and a continuation. By that time, Diane was at

943
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 5: Patent State and was being held there for her own

944
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 5: safety and for treatment until she would.

945
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 2: Testify, right, And I want to get into that.

946
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 5: I don't mean to jump ahead, but the picture that

947
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 5: people have of these zombie like girls, they were true

948
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 5: believers at that point in Manson and that he was

949
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:46,800
Speaker 5: Man's son and that he was their only saving grace,

950
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 5: that this race war was going to happen, and the

951
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 5: only person who could save them would be him, and

952
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 5: they fully believed it, and they were all boiled to him, right.

953
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 3: And I think some of the proof of that, to

954
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 3: me is just how far gone they were in that belief.

955
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 3: Was the fact that when we got arrested for burning

956
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,760
Speaker 3: a road grader in Death Valley, it didn't have anything

957
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 3: to do with the murders. But Susan Atkins had a

958
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 3: warnt out and she got transferred to you know, La

959
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:23,240
Speaker 3: County Jail, and it was there that she started telling

960
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 3: her roommates about Charlie, right, And I mean did she

961
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 3: I think she really thought that the doors of the

962
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 3: jail were just going to fall off and they were

963
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 3: going to be free to go to the desert with Charlie.

964
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 3: And she was still like proud of that and trying

965
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 3: to I think, trying to convince these ab cellmates about

966
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 3: the reality. And then she started, you know, she believed

967
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 3: it so much that she started to tell them what

968
00:54:55,880 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 3: her part in these teneous murders. It's like, why would

969
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 3: you do that unless you were.

970
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 2: Totally totally brainwashed.

971
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 3: Without a doubt brainwashed.

972
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 5: And think about it too. At that time, there were

973
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 5: a lot of counter revolutionary groups, and at the time

974
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,240
Speaker 5: before they people understood what had really happened and why,

975
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 5: there were some of the counter revolutionary groups supporting what

976
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 5: had happened, thinking that it was a strike against the establishment. Oh,

977
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 5: and they actually felt that the murders were like a

978
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 5: revolutionary Yeah, there were horrible collateral damage, but this was

979
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 5: something good for the cause.

980
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 3: Oh.

981
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 2: I didn't know that.

982
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 5: Wowun is up and up is down, and you have

983
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 5: to consider the times.

984
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 2: I guess I knew that there were lots of domestic

985
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: bombings for political purposes, so I guess I could see

986
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 2: how that would make sense. But yeah, I had no

987
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 2: idea anyone interpreted it that way.

988
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 5: I can't think of the particular group. But there were,

989
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 5: you know, radical groups that came out in favor of

990
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 5: what he did. Now, of course, later they didn't necessarily

991
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 5: support him, but at first they thought that this you know,

992
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 5: they were attacking the establishment and making a statement, and

993
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,800
Speaker 5: you know, until they realized that it was very crazy.

994
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, you.

995
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: So back to the girls for a second. Did you

996
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 2: experience any jealousy because you had to share? I'm calling

997
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:34,760
Speaker 2: him Charlie just because that's what the book called him.

998
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 3: You know, when I think of him, I I don't

999
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 3: call him Charles Manson, right, you know, he's Charlie. I remember, though,

1000
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 3: thinking at some point that I was in love with

1001
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 3: him and that I wanted him to just take me,

1002
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 3: yeah off and marry me. You know, that was in

1003
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 3: the very early state, you know, very early stages. But

1004
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 3: they're really wasn't. I mean, we were like you know,

1005
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 3: sister wives for the most part, I mean, and that's

1006
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 3: what he encouraged, you know. So that was part of

1007
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 3: the brainwashing, is that we were to squelch those feelings

1008
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 3: of jealousy. That wasn't that wasn't okay. You know, you

1009
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 3: need to share and you know, share a like, and

1010
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 3: he did when you did spend time with just him,

1011
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 3: he did make you feel like you were you know,

1012
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 3: you were the special one. So and that was part

1013
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 3: of his training, and he pulled it off for the

1014
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 3: most part.

1015
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 2: How did you get the nickname Snake?

1016
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 3: I actually was responsible probably for giving myself that thing.

1017
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 3: Not that I wanted that nickname, but I had been

1018
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 3: fasting and because Charlie. That was one of Charlie's things too,

1019
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 3: is that we didn't really need food, so you know,

1020
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 3: and we certainly didn't want to get fat. And so

1021
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 3: I had been on like a lemon and honey fast

1022
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 3: forbably twenty days. Holy moly.

1023
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 5: I didn't realize it was that long.

1024
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, And anyway, and it was a hot summer day

1025
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 3: at the top of you know, Topanga Canyon and.

1026
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 5: Talk about hallucinating.

1027
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 3: Ill and I wasn't really even hallucinating. I just you know,

1028
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 3: I'm a kid and I just imagined what it would

1029
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 3: be like slithering through the tall cool grass as a snake,

1030
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 3: and so I just recat I mean, it's just, you know,

1031
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 3: it wasn't even like something I physically saw. It was

1032
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 3: just something that I got in the skin of the

1033
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 3: snake and what that would be like. And I was

1034
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 3: wanting that, you know, imagery to the girls in the

1035
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 3: kitchen into one of the places that we lived in

1036
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 3: Topanga Canyon and there from then on, I was Snake.

1037
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 3: Charlie gave everybody nicknames, so I just didn't have one yet, right.

1038
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, take away your original identity.

1039
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 3: But you know what's interesting, But I just found this

1040
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 3: out a couple of years ago, is that in the

1041
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 3: Chinese zodiac, I was born in the year of the Snake.

1042
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: Come on, that's crazy. Three, very good.

1043
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 3: It's humbling to have that nickname snake.

1044
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. So you were all dumpster diving, some people were

1045
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: stealing cars. You're I mean, I guess you sort of

1046
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 2: described every day. It's just everyday life is like getting

1047
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 2: the things done that you need to get done. How

1048
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 2: did you feel when the race work talk stuff began.

1049
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 2: Did you feel uncomfortable with that at all?

1050
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 3: Like, what was that like, yeah, it was you know,

1051
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 3: it was a little disconcerting. I grew up in Minnesota

1052
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 3: and my father and mom had you know, African American

1053
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 3: friends that would come over for dinner and they were

1054
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 3: just you know, I didn't have but in Los Angeles,

1055
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 3: you know, and then the Black Panthers and then you know,

1056
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 3: and Charlie would talk about it, and he'd been hearing

1057
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 3: about it, you know, since he was a little guy

1058
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,959
Speaker 3: in reform school and then prison, so this was like, oh,

1059
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 3: insider information kind of thing.

1060
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 5: In the context of the times. It sort of overlapped

1061
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 5: the peaceful demonstrations with Martin Luther King and he was

1062
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 5: assassinated in nineteen sixty eight, so you know, it was

1063
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 5: all during that time that at the same time, there

1064
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 5: was this undercurrent of activists who were the Black Panthers,

1065
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 5: who were saying, no, let's not do this peacefully, let's

1066
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 5: do you know, let's do this, let's have a revolution,

1067
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 5: and so it all was overlapping. So I think the

1068
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 5: rhetoric was supporting his upside down, thinking that this was

1069
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 5: going to happen and us. Another thing that you have

1070
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 5: to consider is that he would take pieces of information

1071
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 5: from many different sources and right down the street literally

1072
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 5: from I mean we drove there when we did our tour,

1073
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 5: right down from Spawn Ranch was right.

1074
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 6: What is it like a Fountain of the World world

1075
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 6: And they're another cult, yes, and their leader he espoused

1076
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 6: a race war and all of his followers believed in

1077
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 6: that race war.

1078
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:38,919
Speaker 5: And so again you've got a mishmash christ Naventa, thank you.

1079
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 5: That was gonna bother me all night, Christianava.

1080
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 2: This is another cult leader that like everybody kind of knows.

1081
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 5: Or it's well, he didn't. He was murdered or bombed,

1082
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 5: but the actual cult housing in the buildings are still there.

1083
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 3: I bet a remnant of them still are part of

1084
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 3: that cult.

1085
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 5: And they went there. Diane went there with Yeah, we went.

1086
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 3: We tried to recruit them, or we wanted them to

1087
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 3: recruit us. I don't know, we want we tried to

1088
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 3: combine forces with them. Oh.

1089
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 1: Interesting, that could have made it way worse.

1090
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1091
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 3: Yes, they didn't like Charlie.

1092
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 6: No.

1093
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 1: Oh, they were like opposing cult leaders exactly.

1094
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 5: Well, and their cult leader was dead but they were

1095
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 5: still loyal to him.

1096
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 2: Oh, so they were dead, and Charlie was like, let

1097
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 2: me go get these people who need a new leader.

1098
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 5: Ahh, making over an ant hill or something.

1099
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 2: Fas fascinating, And we will leave it there for now.

1100
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,479
Speaker 2: Stay tuned for next week. There is so much more

1101
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 2: to get into, Megan. Yes, say you're fourteen, Los Angeles sixties,

1102
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 2: pretty unstable childhood, lots of moving around, lots of communes,

1103
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 2: lots of predatory men coming after you. What do you

1104
01:02:58,280 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 2: think would you?

1105
01:02:59,240 --> 01:02:59,439
Speaker 3: Oh?

1106
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely would you meet up with Charlie?

1107
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Absolutely?

1108
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, go on, I mean how I mean, just in.

1109
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: Pure survival mode. She needed someplace to go and I

1110
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 1: would have too. And I think he from what I've

1111
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: read and what he sounds like, he can be very

1112
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 1: seductive in making you feel like there's a bigger purpose.

1113
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 1: And that's very compelling for my personal brain. So I

1114
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: totally understand your personal brain. My personal brain, my public brain.

1115
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 1: Totally different story.

1116
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 2: I agree, absolutely, Even just the moment that she described

1117
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 2: when she shows up to this house and they all

1118
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 2: just know who she is and they know her name

1119
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,439
Speaker 2: and they welcome her with open arms after being kicked

1120
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 2: out of this other place. I mean, even at age

1121
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 2: thirty three, my current age, that would be very alluring

1122
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 2: to me. Yeah, But imagine at fourteen. Oh my god.

1123
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 2: The age that we've talked about this in the past,

1124
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 2: fourteen is the age that, or maybe thirteen, but that

1125
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 2: I prayed to Satan for friends because God hadn't delivered me, really,

1126
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 2: you know, and.

1127
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: You believed in God, so that was a like real, right.

1128
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 2: I was desperate, so imagine and I had great parents

1129
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 2: who were you know, like loving parents, and I can't

1130
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 2: even imagine, like I can't imagine not joining the group

1131
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 2: at that time. Same, yeah, and of course, like it's

1132
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 2: all about this slow descent, right, his slow descent into madness,

1133
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 2: and by that point, that's your life, that's your community.

1134
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 2: So I urged people to consider, you know, obviously, some

1135
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 2: horrific murders happened. It's easy to think we could never

1136
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 2: do that because it's so horrible, but I urge folks

1137
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 2: to consider if they were in that same situation, you know,

1138
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:50,000
Speaker 2: and on all kinds of LSD, you might be susceptible.

1139
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 1: Do you think that if he hadn't gone so far

1140
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 1: down with drugs there would have been a totally different outcome.

1141
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 2: I don't know, because it seems like there was genuine

1142
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 2: mental illness an instability there already, like he'd had a

1143
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 2: track record of committing crimes his whole life, even in

1144
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 2: and out of jail, his whole life, So it doesn't

1145
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 2: seem like he was on the straight and arrow other

1146
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 2: than drugs, you know what I mean? Right, It seems

1147
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 2: like classic sociopath stuff like the unpredictable violent behavior. Clearly

1148
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 2: had a conscience, hadn't been much of a factor for him.

1149
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 2: So yea, So maybe it wouldn't have gotten to that

1150
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 2: particular point. But you know, one always wonders if the

1151
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 2: music career had gone well, you know.

1152
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 1: Isn't Andrew Keegan? Doesn't he have a cult in Venice?

1153
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's a cold or if it's

1154
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 2: a religion. I think he's like a pastor. Oh, people

1155
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 2: call it a could. I don't know if it's a

1156
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:38,760
Speaker 2: cold or if it's just like an independent religion. But

1157
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 2: we should have him on and find out.

1158
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 1: I've randomly spent a lovely afternoon with Andrew Keegan because

1159
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 1: I ran into him on the beach, didn't know who

1160
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 1: he was, and he had a parrot and a pug

1161
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 1: and a Pomeranian.

1162
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, does he only have pets that start with pee?

1163
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 2: A parent pug and a Pomeranian.

1164
01:05:57,760 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 1: Walk into a part.

1165
01:05:59,040 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 2: What is that?

1166
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, you know it's it's some crazy ship.

1167
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, wow parrot, just have a parrot. All right,

1168
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 2: y'all come back next week and hear the rest of

1169
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 2: the story.

1170
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 1: Yes, please do. I can't wait for y'all to hear

1171
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: the end of the story. And for now, remember to

1172
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 1: follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and never

1173
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: ever trus me me