1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: We have a pretty special classic for you this evening. 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. If you have ever listened to a podcast, 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: then you are familiar with the person we're going to 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: be talking to. A good friend of the show recurring guests, 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: the one and only legendary Payne Lendsy. I forgot that 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: we've been Pain. It's been working with us and you, 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: particularly Matt for a number of years. 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: Now, since twenty seventeen. 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: Man, it's been a long time. 11 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 4: That's right. This was kind of the first big, big 12 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 4: collaboration between you and Pain and the network. It's gone 13 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 4: on to yield some pretty amazing other things sequels to 14 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 4: the Monster series, like The Zodiac Killer and the DC Sniper. 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: That's crazy, there's nine shows at this point. But this 16 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 2: was the first time we ever got to hang out 17 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: with Pain together and just have a conversation. And we 18 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: talked about Atlanta, Monster Up and Vanished and several other things. 19 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 2: And I think it was right as Up and Vanished 20 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: Season two was getting ready to come out. 21 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a sneak peek of that. And so 22 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: without further ado, here it is. Folks catch up on 23 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: these and then tune in because there is a brand 24 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: new season of Up and Vanished on the way. 25 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 4: Now, not to mention his new chat show Talking to 26 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 4: Death that I think you might see some familiar voices 27 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 4: and faces on in the not too distant future. 28 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh god, we gotta do it. It's Tenderfoot. Also, 29 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 2: go listen Radical. That's a great new show that's Atlanta centric. 30 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 2: You'll be into it. It's cool. 31 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 32 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 33 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 5: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. 34 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my. 35 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 4: Name is Nolan. 36 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 5: They call me Ben. 37 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: We are joined with our super producer, Paul decand most importantly, 38 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: you are you. You are here, and that makes this 39 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. But not any 40 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: normal episode of stuff they'll want you to know, not 41 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: as if we've ever had a normal episode. 42 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 4: What is normal? 43 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,119 Speaker 1: I know that is Yeah, it changed so quickly on us. 44 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: But this episode is a little bit different because we 45 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: are delving into several different stories that you are doubtlessly 46 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: familiar with if you have explored podcasts in the past, 47 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: and we're not doing it alone. Today, we are joined 48 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: by filmmaker, documentarian, co creator and host of the hit 49 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: podcast Up and Vanished. Friends and neighbors, conspiracy realists and 50 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: skeptics alike. Say hello to Payne Lendsey. 51 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 3: Hey guys, it's up. 52 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: Not too much, man, we're just over here. You know, 53 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 2: on this show we talk about true crime a whole lot, 54 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 2: if we delve into all different aspects of it. But 55 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 2: we really were excited to talk to you somebody who's 56 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: created a whole show and series of shows about true crime, 57 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 2: specifically where you get to spend more than just one 58 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 2: episode talking about a case where you get to delve 59 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: into every single aspect, and you know, with your show 60 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: Up and Vanished as season one, man, the Tara Grinstad case. 61 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: I just wonder if anybody hasn't listened to this yet, 62 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: who was listening to the show right now? Can you 63 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: give everyone just kind of a brief overview of that case? 64 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, sure so, Stephen. One of Up in Vanished covered 65 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 3: a missing person's case in South Georgia is a missing 66 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 3: beauty queen and high school teacher named Tara Grinstead. It 67 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 3: was over ten years cold and there were no leads anymore, 68 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 3: and people pretty much just stopped talking about it in 69 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 3: South Georgia, and I came around and made a podcast 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 3: about our disappearance and just started interergering people in the town. 71 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 3: And then about six months into the podcast, about halfway through, 72 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 3: there was a major break in the case and a 73 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 3: tip came forth to law enforcement, which promptedly doesn't searched 74 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 3: this the con Orchard, and they made two arrests for 75 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 3: Tira's murder. So it was a huge story. And it's 76 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 3: bizarrely because when I first got involved, it was kind 77 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 3: of like this sort of part of the town that 78 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 3: people didn't want to talk about this anymore at all. 79 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 3: They were afraid to mention people's names. Over the years, 80 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 3: over a decade, people have pointed fingers at each other, 81 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 3: and they had kind of just given up on the 82 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 3: idea of, you know, ever really finding out what happened 83 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 3: to Tira. It was such a big mystery. But about 84 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 3: six months into the podcast, there was a major break 85 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 3: in the case, and from that point forward we essentially 86 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 3: followed these suspects and their friends and interviewed everybody, and 87 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 3: actually just recently the one of the accused, Ryan Duke, 88 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 3: hired a new attorney and in the next six months 89 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 3: or so there should be a trial in Tira grin 90 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 3: Said's case. 91 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: Oh man, wow, that's I mean, that's powerful stuff too. 92 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: And this is something that a lot of the folks 93 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: in our audience today are definitely wondering when they hear 94 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: about the story about the investigation that you conducted under 95 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: your own power, especially at first there several of the 96 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: people listening now are probably aspiring keyboard sleuths. Right to 97 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: use the phrase that I think you came up with, Matt, 98 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: So we'd like to ask on their behalf about the process. 99 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: How did you begin making these connections and tracking down 100 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: this information that in some cases it sounds like people 101 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: did not want you to find. 102 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: I mean, it's really difficult, but it's the same way 103 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 3: that you could think of on your own. If you've 104 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 3: ever been on Reddit or the of advanced discussion board, 105 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 3: different websites like web flues, it's all the same thing. 106 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 3: You know, you try to find people's names, you find 107 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 3: their contact information. Actually use Facebook a lot because you 108 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 3: can see their faces and you can and verify that 109 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 3: that's who they are. You can see their friends and 110 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 3: so I know all I do that usually just just 111 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 3: with my own real Facebook profile too, so you know, 112 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 3: if I'm reaching out to a stranger, I'm saying, hey, 113 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: look here's pictures of me and my family. I'm a 114 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 3: real person. I'm not just some catfish online. So you know, 115 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 3: it's a It can be exhausting sometimes because you know, 116 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 3: you can go down a rabbit hole that is just 117 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 3: completely just nothing, And you know, I've done that before 118 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: several times, admittedly, but I think you have to do 119 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: that to find the truth. Sometimes you don't know that 120 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 3: until you reach the bottom of that hole and you realize, oh, okay, 121 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 3: well there's nothing here, or this is just all wrong. 122 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 3: And that's kind of like the synopsis of Jason one 123 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 3: of up and Vanish in a lot of ways, you know, 124 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 3: I was. I basically started with the two or three 125 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 3: persons of interest that law enforcement had unofficially announced to 126 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 3: the media and that everyone had covered over the year, 127 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 3: and explore all of these people and their friends and 128 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 3: everything else extensively, and then it didn't really go anywhere. 129 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: Things were weird and suspicious, but there was nothing concrete, 130 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: none of it really made sense. And then sure enough, 131 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 3: out of the blue, there was a tip that came 132 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 3: forward and it was two guys. No one ever heard 133 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 3: of two former students. So you know, there's a lot 134 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 3: to be learned from my first go around, and I 135 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: definitely am applying a lot of that to season two. 136 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 3: And it's an entirely different case and it's complex in 137 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 3: different ways. 138 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: Oh, it most certainly is. And I want to get 139 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: into that in just a second paint. I just want 140 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: to stick on season one just because there are a 141 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: couple moments in here in Minutia I want to just 142 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: explore with you. So, you know, you're talking about just 143 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: giving your Facebook out to random people that you don't know, 144 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: You don't know how they're involved necessarily in the case, 145 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: at least behind closed doors, right, But you're putting yourself 146 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: out there doing that, And this is a small town 147 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: where people know each other, where there is a real 148 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: threat of some kind of perhaps retaliation from either a 149 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,679 Speaker 2: person or group of people that actually carried out this murder. 150 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 2: Like what kind of security measures did you end up 151 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: getting in place when you're walking around that town on foot, 152 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: when you're talking to people maybe in their house or 153 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: at a public place, Like, how do you protect yourself? 154 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 3: It's funny because at first I didn't really think about 155 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 3: it too much. I just have my blinders on, and 156 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: I was just being almost foolishly fearless about it and 157 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: just didn't really, you think too much about my own safety. 158 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 3: I was too determined to figure out what was going on, 159 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 3: and most of the time it was from the comfort 160 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 3: of my own home, if I was on my computer 161 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 3: and making phone calls. But when I went down there, 162 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,719 Speaker 3: I definitely took more precautions and I didn't really, you know, 163 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: make a whole bunch of noise when I was there. 164 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 3: And it really wasn't until the very end of the season, 165 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 3: after the arrest had been made and I was interviewing 166 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 3: different friends of the suspects, that I felt really uncomfortable 167 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 3: down in Oscilla, Georgia for the first time. And it 168 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 3: was at that point that I realized, Okay, I'm not 169 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,839 Speaker 3: coming down here again alone one, and I'm going to 170 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 3: have a completely different game plan whenever I come back here. 171 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 3: And so I've I've since been back to film some 172 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 3: stuff for the TV show that we have in the works, 173 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 3: and this this go around, we actually had security with us, 174 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 3: and they were outside of our door the whole night. 175 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 3: They were stay in the stayed in the same hotels 176 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 3: as we did, so we actually it's kind of hiring 177 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 3: security the last time we were there. 178 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 2: And by the way, that is the I think it's 179 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: been announced enough now that we can say that's been 180 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: it's going to be developed with Oxygen, right, Yeah, that's correct, 181 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 2: So look for the Up and Vanished TV show on 182 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: Oxygen everybody. 183 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and let us let us know what you 184 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: think about it, because it's no secret that here at 185 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: stuff they'll want you to know. We're also and can't 186 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: wait to see, can't wait to see how it all 187 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: turns out and how the puzzle pieces matched together. When 188 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about security, naturally we begin to wonder about 189 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: law enforcement, right, especially in the situation that occurs in 190 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: Up and Vanished Season one, And for everyone who's listening, 191 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: there may be spoiler territory here. But one of the 192 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: questions we have to ask is, given that the relationship 193 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: between law enforcement and journalists can be such a complicated thing, 194 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: did you feel any support or did you feel any 195 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: I guess, on the other extreme animosity from local authorities 196 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: when you were poking around initially in this case, well. 197 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 3: At first in Kira Ncid's case, At first, local law enforcement, 198 00:10:55,280 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: the Asila Police Department was pretty welcoming to me. They 199 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 3: wanted the case solved too, and they had essentially run 200 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 3: out of leads. Anyone who was going to go out 201 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 3: on a limb and try to solve this and piece 202 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 3: this together on their own, they supported that. So at 203 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 3: first it was they were pretty cooperative. Now, the GBI, 204 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 3: the Georgia Brew of Investigation, they never really talked to 205 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: me in the beginning, and from what I've heard, that's 206 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 3: sort of liked them. It's still an active case. In 207 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 3: their eyes, there was an active investigation, so they didn't 208 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: want to divulge any details about the case or really 209 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 3: comment on it too much. But really halfway through the 210 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 3: series is when things started to change. Once there was 211 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 3: two arrests in the case, it just got real again. 212 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 3: It went from being a cold case to a murder 213 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 3: case with two suspects that have been arrested, and so 214 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 3: with that comes all these new rumors about these people 215 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 3: and almost a live investigation again. And so from that 216 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 3: point forward, really no law enforcement wanted to talk to 217 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 3: me at all. And you know, really, if you listen 218 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: to the entire series, there's not a single interview with 219 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 3: a police officer that was a part of that case. None, 220 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 3: And it's kind of hard to imagine that now, but 221 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 3: that's just the way it was. 222 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 5: Wow. 223 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: But you so you did have assistance there, I mean, 224 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 2: there are so many voices on the show you had 225 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 2: assistance from investigators and some other people that came through 226 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 2: and ended up assisting you in some way. 227 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 3: Right, I wouldn't I wouldn't call it assistance. I think 228 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 3: it was just they were they were supportive of the 229 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 3: podcast and someone telling Terras's story on a major platform, 230 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: but they weren't giving me tips or pointing me in 231 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 3: a direction. They they feared very clear of that, and 232 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 3: really they it seemed like after the arrest they didn't 233 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 3: really want to touch the podcast at all. 234 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 4: So when you're out there interviewing folks, I'm sure you 235 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 4: want to travel lights so you can be kind of like, 236 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 4: you know, nimble and getting around and getting as much 237 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 4: in as you can. What kind of equipment do you 238 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 4: use when you're out in the field recording interviews and 239 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 4: chasing down leads? What's your kit? 240 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 3: My kit is my MacBook Pro and all my files 241 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 3: synced on Dropbox and for the team to share and 242 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 3: I usually I just run with a zoom Et six 243 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 3: and either a shotgun mic attached to it, or i'm running, 244 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 3: I guess a really short XLR cable to a better 245 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 3: sounding mic, and then someone's usually holding that. But I 246 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 3: like to have one eight six with an onboard mic 247 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 3: on it at all times, just in case I'm all 248 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 3: of a sudden talking to someone who's telling me something 249 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 3: very important, I'd rather not record it on my phone, 250 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: so I get some decent audio from an onboard microphone 251 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: with the zoom Mate six. But that's that's pretty much it. 252 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 2: It's pretty simple, that's awesome, and it's actually pretty affordable. 253 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: And there are some other versions of that zoom that 254 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 2: you can get there even cheaper. If you're thinking about 255 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: starting your own thing listening out there or you know, 256 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: checking it out, you can you can affordably get some 257 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: stuff to make a pretty cool show. 258 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: And we'll return to this story after a word from 259 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back. While we're talking about inspiration, 260 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: let's take a let's go a little bit further down 261 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole, because, as longtime listeners know, pain You 262 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: and Tenderfoot TV did not just create up and vanished 263 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: you also have created Atlanta Monster along with for Peak 264 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, a collaboration with our very own Matt Frederick. 265 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: And Ben Bowlin and Paul Decint and you know. 266 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's a teamwork makes the dream work. But 267 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: the reason this goes to a question inspiration is I'm 268 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: sure many people are curious to learn what originally inspired 269 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: you and Donald and your team at Tenderfoot to investigate 270 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: the story of Wayne Williams. 271 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely really was. It was my business partner Donald 272 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 3: who brought Wayne Williams to my attention, and I had 273 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 3: never heard of the Atlanta child murders before it happened 274 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 3: in the early eighties, and I just started diving into 275 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 3: the story and looking into it and just taking me 276 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 3: back to that time period and seeing how different Atlanta was. 277 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 3: I just saw so many different reasons to tell this story. 278 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 3: Beyond the question whether or not Wayne Williams was in 279 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 3: Center Guilty. I saw sort of painting a picture of 280 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 3: a time period that was in some ways forgotten that 281 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 3: shouldn't be. If I didn't know about the Atlanta Chilo murders. 282 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 3: That meant that there was probably thousands, hundreds of thousands 283 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 3: of people who also didn't know about the child murders, 284 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 3: and it turns out that was correct. I just saw 285 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: there was so much to explore there, and I thought 286 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 3: the race part of it seemed to stremely relevant to today, 287 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 3: and I thought that we could, you know, extract some 288 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 3: sort of positive silver lining message from it in some 289 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 3: way so difficult, I thought that we did that, and 290 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 3: I just thought it was in some way the history 291 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 3: lesson for people and even for myself. And that's why 292 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 3: I thought it was so cool, because as I was 293 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 3: diving through all the old archives and just intergering these 294 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: people being taken back to a time period that I 295 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 3: wasn't a part of and seeing how different it was 296 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 3: really kind of opened my mind a little bit. There's 297 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 3: a lot of reasons why I chose to tell the 298 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 3: story of the Atlanta child murders, and they weren't all 299 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 3: about Wayne Williams. 300 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: Just for anybody who hasn't listened yet, Hey to do 301 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: this to you, fame, but can you give us an 302 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 2: overview of the Atlanta jal murders case? 303 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 3: You mean you haven't listened to Atlanta Monster, I. 304 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: Mean I haven't heard any of it. 305 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 3: If you haven't listened to Atlanta Monster. You should be 306 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 3: pressing pause right now. 307 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: That's true. 308 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: So Atlanta Monster is about the Atlanta child murders that 309 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 3: occurred in the eighties. There's a man in prison for 310 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 3: some of the murders. His name is Wayne Williams, and 311 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 3: for the past several decades a lot of people have 312 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 3: questioned whether or not Wayne Williams is the right guy, 313 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 3: and Wayn Williams today in twenty eighteen still says I'm 314 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 3: not the guy. I didn't kill anybody. So there's always 315 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 3: a bunch of a bunch of conspiracies around this case, 316 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 3: a lot of different advocates either for against Wayne Williams, 317 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 3: and a lot of unsolved murders of these children either way, 318 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 3: how do you slice it. There was upwards of twenty 319 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 3: eight to thirty kids on this list of children who 320 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 3: were murdered in Atlanta in that time period, and only 321 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,479 Speaker 3: about half of them were blamed on Wayne Williams. And 322 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 3: what at least it was basically is a bunch of 323 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 3: unsolved murders of children. And so either way there was 324 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 3: a huge injustice done, whether Wayn Williams was a serial 325 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 3: killer or not. So we essentially explored that and not 326 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 3: to get too much away. But during the podcast, we 327 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 3: make contact with Wayne Williams in prison and he gives 328 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 3: us his take on everything, and he's still claiming his innocence, 329 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 3: but as he gives us new information that is supposed 330 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: to prove his innocence, we kind of go back through 331 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 3: that and dissect it and find out whether or not 332 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 3: it's legitimate. And it's it's complicated, but it would take 333 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: listening to the whole series to get a big to 334 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 3: get the bigger picture. 335 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 2: So you you did talk to Wayne Williams. 336 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: I did. 337 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: Now, perhaps you don't have to, you don't have to 338 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: answer this pain, but I'm just gonna ask it. How 339 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 2: does one talk to a convicted possibly serial killer in prison? 340 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 3: Oh? My, I don't know how I did that. It 341 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 3: was I found it pretty difficult, just because I had 342 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 3: to sort of put on this sort of persona of 343 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 3: one to hear everything he had to say. And I 344 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 3: wanted to gain his trust, and I did want to 345 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 3: hear him out. I wanted to hear he told me 346 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 3: he had proof that he was innocent, so I wanted 347 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 3: to hear it. I was going to give him the 348 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 3: benefit of my own doubts and hear him out. But 349 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 3: over time it just became really difficult because he would 350 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 3: call me it random hours from different numbers in prison, 351 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 3: and we would just talk for long periods of time 352 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 3: about the same exact things, and I started realizing that 353 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 3: he wasn't really calling me to tell me he was 354 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 3: innocent or for me to get him out of prison. 355 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 3: He didn't really seem too concerned about that. He really 356 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 3: just wanted the spotlight. He wanted to He wanted someone 357 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 3: to talk to like myself, and if it wasn't me, 358 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 3: it was somebody else. And so over time it became 359 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 3: harder to talk to him, and my patience levels to 360 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 3: typically decreased. My patience was pretty much lost there by 361 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 3: the end, and I had to sort of pass way 362 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 3: Williams off hit Donald's for a little bit because we 363 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 3: were building the podcast, and you know, our calls weren't 364 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 3: very constructive. They were just sort of rehashing things that 365 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 3: didn't really make sense, and so just kind of grabbing 366 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 3: the steering wheel and taking it somewhere at all, anywhere 367 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 3: of significance was just plain difficult. But we did our 368 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 3: best to extract as much information, legitimate information as possible, 369 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 3: whether or not that was true. You know, it's to 370 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 3: be seen. 371 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 2: Just for some more background information here, just paining you're 372 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 2: talking about just how little time you actually had when 373 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: we were in production of this. So there was a 374 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 2: production team on the house stuff works end that would 375 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 2: you know, engineer and work on the shows and edit 376 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: to a certain extent, but most of everything was edited, 377 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: at least in the major first pass by you by 378 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 2: paying himself as he's also like going on recording everything 379 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: and doing the interviews and stuff. So yeah, time was 380 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 2: of the essence. And I can't imagine getting stuck on 381 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: the phone for like two hours at a time. 382 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: Oh you're in a crunch, and even the hassle of 383 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: going through the bureaucratic steps necessary to gain access right 384 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: to convicted Yellen. So were your calls monitored as well? 385 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: Surely they were, right. 386 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 3: Definitely, any call that came from the prison itself, it's 387 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 3: always monitored, and there's a little voice that comes on 388 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 3: before the call starts that lets you know for sure 389 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 3: that it's definitely being recorded. 390 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: And these in these conversations, you know, you hit on 391 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 1: the fact that there was at times this feeling of 392 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: talking to a broken record or hearing a record on repeat. 393 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: But one thing that fascinates me in this story is 394 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: something that you mentioned at the very top when we're 395 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: talking about this, that you found stories and threads that 396 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: did not necessarily have a direct relationship with Wayne Williams. 397 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: Could you tell us maybe one or two aspects of 398 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: this journey that surprised you as you dug further into 399 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: the investigation. 400 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 3: I guess the most surprising part of it to me 401 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 3: was just how severe the injustice was to some of 402 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 3: these families. Talking to the families myself and just hearing 403 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 3: their stories in person really changed my entire perspective of 404 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 3: the Atlanta Chawmers and Wayne Williams and what the true 405 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 3: injustice was here. So that threat alone was the biggest, 406 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 3: just sort of seeing all these children's murder cases essentially 407 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 3: being swept under the rug, and the FBI and the 408 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 3: Atlanta police honing in on Wayne Williams and wanting this 409 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 3: to go away so badly, and for reasons that aren't 410 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 3: just about catching a killer, reasons that are about preserving 411 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 3: the city these you know, the way the city looks 412 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 3: and feels to the newcomers, and just Atlanta was on 413 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 3: the rise, and people in power saw this as something 414 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 3: that needed to go away, and it needed to go 415 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 3: away fast. And so with that mentality came this sort 416 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 3: of sweeping under the rug with these cases. And so 417 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 3: what happened is you talk to these families and almost 418 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 3: all of them will tell you that they don't think 419 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 3: Wayn Williams did it. And in my opinion, I don't 420 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 3: think that that's because Wayn Williams didn't necessarily kill their 421 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 3: their son or their daughter. I think it's because they 422 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 3: were it was never proven to them otherwise. No one 423 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 3: ever proved to these families that Wayne Williams killed their child. 424 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 3: And that's the biggest part of this whole mystery to me. 425 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 3: And so over the years, decades and decades, it sort 426 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 3: of perpetuates this idea of conspiracies, and you know, with 427 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 3: the KKK involved, all these other different threads that just 428 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 3: come to light because it was never proven to them 429 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 3: that it was Wayne Williams. Even if it was Wayne Williams, 430 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 3: they would still tell you otherwise because over the years, 431 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 3: it's sort of they've developed this sort of way of 432 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 3: thinking about it, and you know, it's just awful. But 433 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 3: that was the biggest thread that I wanted to explore 434 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 3: outside of just Wayne Williams themselves, was sort of the 435 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 3: impact on the families and the way people have perceived this. 436 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 3: Generations ago people felt this way about it and now 437 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 3: they're telling this way about it. Just sort of seeing 438 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 3: the then and now and kind of exploring all the 439 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 3: different people that were affected by this and their views 440 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 3: on it, to me, was really just the core of the. 441 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: Podcast, dude. So okay, this is another kind of personal question. 442 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: Making a show like Up a Vanish or Ortlanta Monster 443 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 2: it requires a certain amount of obsession. I think you 444 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 2: would agree with that, just to get it right. 445 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 3: Definitely. 446 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: Have you found that that has any psychological effects in 447 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: a w makes you think about the world differently or 448 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: just shapes your vision in some way in the real 449 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: world while you're walking around, If you've got all this 450 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 2: dark stuff just kind of looming in the back of your. 451 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 3: Head, yeah, I mean, it definitely has an effect on you. 452 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 3: It's a pretty dark subject matter, and I try not 453 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 3: to focus too much on the dark parts of it. 454 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 3: I'm not the kind of person who wants to take 455 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 3: the story of a murder and just punctuate all the 456 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 3: story details of it. That is not something that I'm 457 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 3: ever interested in I'm more interested in interviewing the people 458 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 3: surrounding this event or this unsolved mystery and sort of 459 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 3: diving into the hundreds of people that it affects, or 460 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 3: even in the thousands. So I try to like keep 461 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 3: my focus on things that aren't the darkest elements of 462 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 3: these stories. But regardless, at the core of it is 463 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 3: this really sad and disturbing story, whether it's a missing 464 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 3: person's case or it's the Atlantic slow murders, and so 465 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 3: it definitely has an effect on me psychologically, but I 466 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 3: do my best to sort of tune that out and 467 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 3: not let that affect my day to day life and 468 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 3: also not affect the way I tell the story. It's 469 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 3: really really easy, especially if you're becoming obsessed over a 470 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 3: murder case or a story like this, to just kind 471 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 3: of lose all side of what's what the reality is, 472 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 3: you know, what's really going on. It's easy to get 473 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 3: lost in it, and then you could come up with 474 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 3: an episode that sounds crazy to people. So I have 475 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 3: to kind of check myself at all times, and you know, 476 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 3: keep a certain amount of distance. Even though I'm plopping 477 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 3: myself right in the middle of these things, I still 478 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 3: have a certain amount of distance I keep, and that's 479 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 3: for my own safety and my own sanity, really, and 480 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 3: also so I can tell a better, more objective true story. 481 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 4: So does Wayne Williams ever like shoot you the occasional 482 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 4: text or anything. 483 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 3: Ah, not anymore. I think you've got I think his 484 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 3: cell phones got snatched up. But I've definitely got some 485 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 3: phone calls from prison that I believe ar Wayne, and 486 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 3: I haven't even listened to the voicemails, but I think 487 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: it's tolly Wayne Williams. But really, since the podcast, I 488 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 3: haven't really been talking to him at all. I think 489 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 3: that if I were to reach out to him and 490 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 3: want to talk to him again, he would totally do 491 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 3: it without a doubt, and at the drop of the 492 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 3: hat he would hop on the phone and be on 493 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 3: any of my podcasts, I would think. 494 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 4: And we're going to take a quick break and then 495 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 4: we'll be right back. 496 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: All right, we're switching gears here. We're moving to the present. 497 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 2: We're getting to Up and Vanish season two, which just 498 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: came out August twentieth, is when it was first the 499 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 2: first episode came out. I've listened to it. I hope 500 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: you out there have also listened to it. So it 501 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 2: focuses on the disappearance of Crystal an Is Risinger, Reisinger, Risinger, Risinger. 502 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 2: And so let's just get into exactly how this case 503 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 2: is different from season one tera Grinstead's case. 504 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 3: There's a lot of similarities, and there's a lot of 505 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 3: differences between season one and season two of Up and Vanished. 506 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 3: The main differences are, well, in jeason one, it was 507 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 3: a small town, right, it was Oscilla, Georgia, South Georgia, 508 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 3: kind of middle of nowhere, off the highway, a few 509 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: thousand residents, pretty small. In this case, we are even 510 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 3: more remote. We are three and a half almost four 511 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 3: hours southwest of Denver, and the closest store really that's 512 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 3: a Walmart or you know, a chain restaurant, is over 513 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 3: an hour drive away from here. And this town only 514 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 3: has one hundred and fifty residents. Now, there's people outside 515 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 3: the town in this area called the Baca, that has 516 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 3: about a thousand or so more. But in the town 517 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 3: proper of Crestone, where this missing person's case is set, 518 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 3: it's a very tiny place and it's also a very 519 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 3: unique place. This is a place full of over fifteen 520 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 3: different spiritual centers, it's a very holy place that attracts 521 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 3: different proof seekers and people seeking enlightenment. See, have all 522 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 3: these kind of interesting people here, and it's really the 523 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 3: reason that Crystal came here was for all the positive 524 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 3: energy here and all the different ways of life that 525 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 3: are kind of clashing here together and working together as one. 526 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 3: And that draws a lot of people from all over 527 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 3: the world here. And what I've found is that even 528 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 3: though this is a very holy place, a very spiritual 529 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: place in the mountains, it's eight thousand feet elevation, it's 530 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 3: a beautiful place. Even though it's all these great things, 531 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 3: it's not immune to evil. Just like everywhere else in 532 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 3: the world, in Denver, in Atlanta, and any big city, 533 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 3: there are bad people there. And just because this is 534 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 3: a holy place in a special place, unfortunately, it seems 535 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 3: like it's not immune to bad people. And that's what 536 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 3: we're exploring now, is you know what happened to Crystal. 537 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 3: We don't know. Crystal family doesn't know, law enforcement does 538 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,719 Speaker 3: not know. And so we're here in Creston and I'm 539 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 3: actually here now on this pretty bad WiFi talking to 540 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 3: you guys. But we're here trying to find out and 541 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 3: we want to tell Crystal story and memorialize her and 542 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 3: you know, introduce a different, unique person to the world. 543 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 3: And that's what we're excited to do. 544 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 4: So, you know, beyond just you know, worrying about people 545 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 4: wanting to murder you in your sleep, I'm out where 546 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 4: you are in this very rural area, there's other things 547 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 4: you have to worry about, like, you know, hostile wildlife. 548 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 4: What's what's that like? 549 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 3: So apparently the wildlife here is extremely abundant. I mean, 550 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 3: I'm right now, I'm looking out the window and I 551 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: just see huge mountaintops that are just a few hundred 552 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 3: yards away from me. I'm surrounded by mountains. The people 553 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 3: are the smaller population here. There are more animals here 554 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 3: than there are people, and it's just an extremely vast place. 555 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 3: I was talking to one local named David, and he 556 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 3: was telling me a story about his friend who we 557 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 3: kind of cover this in episode two. One of his friends, 558 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 3: a bear broke into her car because she left food 559 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 3: in her car, and somehow the bear fumbled the door 560 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 3: and hopped inside, and then the door closed and then 561 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 3: it locked, and so she comes out the next morning 562 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 3: and she finds literally a raging bear eating the inside 563 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: of her car, and so someone had to go over 564 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 3: there with a big broom and poke the door open 565 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 3: and the bear runs off. And there's mountain lions here, 566 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 3: there's wolves, there's all kinds of animals that are really 567 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 3: in your face here, and so obviously with the terrain 568 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 3: and the wildlife here, like it is one of the 569 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 3: possibilities because we don't know what happened to Crystal. Is 570 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 3: you know, the she go into the woods hiking and 571 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 3: you know, have an accounter with an animal, or is 572 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 3: she have an accident somewhere. There's tons of cliffs here, 573 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 3: there's mind stafts here, There's a bunch of unexplored territory 574 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 3: that's just off the grid that would be very difficult 575 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 3: to find someone in if you needed help. So there's 576 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 3: tons of possibilities. It's not just this idea of there 577 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 3: being bad people here or something which are everywhere. There's 578 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 3: also this element of being in the wild and it's 579 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 3: very real here. 580 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: It's it's also intriguing that you mentioned being in the 581 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: wild and living an off the grid sort of life 582 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: here because from what we understand, aspects of this case 583 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: may touch on something that we've talked about in the 584 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: past on the show, The Rainbow Gatherings this intentional, recurring 585 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: community wherein people I guess only trade or give things 586 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: to each other. Also a place candidly or an environment 587 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: candidly known for a being very open and welcoming to 588 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: certain types of drugs. 589 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 3: Definitely, there are tons of groups like that here. The 590 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 3: Rainbow Gathering is just one of them that comes through 591 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 3: every now and then. There are countless different groups and 592 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 3: religious groups and spiritual centers and different beliefs, and you 593 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 3: may even refer to some of them as cults. There's 594 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 3: all kinds of different groups here and they're kind of clashing, 595 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,239 Speaker 3: and it's this melting pot of the best of the 596 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 3: best and the worst of the worst, and it just 597 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 3: opens so many different possibilities to where Crystal may have 598 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 3: gone or what may have happened to her. And so 599 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 3: in episode two we do cover the Rainbow Gathering briefly 600 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 3: because talking to the Sheriff's department here, one of the 601 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 3: early rumors was that someone said they saw getting this 602 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 3: car with a group of people and they were going 603 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 3: to the Rainbow Gathering. They reached out to the Rainbow Gathering, 604 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 3: no one's seeing Crystal, and it kind of fizzles out personally. 605 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 3: I don't think she went there. I think something else 606 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 3: happened to her, but the possibility is still there, and 607 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 3: if not the Rainbow Gathering, maybe it's something else. There's 608 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 3: tons of groups of people here who do weird stuff, 609 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 3: and you know, not all of it is bad, but 610 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 3: some of it includes drugs and sort of a rougher 611 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,319 Speaker 3: lifestyle that could potentially put someone in danger. And so 612 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 3: there's so much to explore with the different types of 613 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 3: people here and what they believe in and what they do. 614 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 3: And you know what Crystal was Crystal associated with them? 615 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 3: You know, we don't know, but that's one of the 616 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 3: avenues that we're exploring. 617 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 2: You know, there's this is completely off topic, but also 618 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 2: in episode two you speak to someone named Candace, and 619 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 2: Candace Candace is part of this thing that's called the 620 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 2: u watch Tower that's out there in a valley somewhere. 621 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about that. 622 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's funny. I was actually at the UFO 623 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 3: watch Tower yesterday and talking to the other lady who 624 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 3: works there, who's very nice. Her name is Judy. But 625 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 3: there's just outside of town on the main highway, there's 626 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 3: a UFO watchtower, which is literally exactly what you think 627 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 3: it is. It's a watch tower where you go and 628 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 3: look for UFOs in the sky. And beyond just being 629 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 3: this platform where you can have this essentially unadulterated view 630 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 3: of the sky, it's also a place that, according to them, 631 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,439 Speaker 3: is very holy and there's different portals here and all 632 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 3: this sort of magical stuff happens there. Right, So your 633 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 3: first inclination is where mine is at least. Yeah, right, 634 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 3: you know, I believe in UFOs. I've seen UFOs once 635 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 3: in my life, and I think that there's definitely odd 636 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 3: things happening in the sky sometimes that isn't explained. But 637 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 3: you start talking about portals and this being some you know, 638 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 3: they're mentioning that there's a space craft buried under this place, 639 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 3: and they sounds kind of, you know, untrue to me, 640 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 3: or I'm at least skeptical at first. And then she said, well, 641 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 3: pull out your phone and open your compass app I 642 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 3: said okay, And so I start walking around and she 643 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 3: said that way and she pointed to the left, that's Norse, 644 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 3: and then on my compass to the far right it 645 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 3: said North. So I started walking around and my compass 646 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 3: literally was jumping around like crazy. It didn't know where 647 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 3: we were or what was going on, and everyone's phone 648 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 3: was doing it. So it wasn't a magnetic thing. It's 649 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 3: like a satellite thing or something. But what maybe it's 650 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 3: just a coincidence. But for whatever reason, if you pull 651 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 3: a compass out in this place, it doesn't know where 652 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: you are, what's going on, or something is interfering with it. 653 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,959 Speaker 3: So after I saw that happen with my own eyes 654 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 3: this is yesterday, I opened my own eyes up a 655 00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 3: little bit more and kind of I don't know if 656 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 3: I believe everything, but I am open to it. People 657 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 3: have a bunch of different beliefs here, and it's not 658 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 3: my job to tell them it's true or untrue. I 659 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 3: just want to learn more about it. And I've seen 660 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 3: some stuff in my own eyes, and that was one 661 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 3: of them. But that's one of many places that are 662 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 3: extremely unique and really worth checking out. And actually a 663 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 3: funny little side note this is I thought it was 664 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 3: kind of funny. So we were there yesterday getting some 665 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 3: more audio with the owner. It was just us there 666 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 3: and a car pulls up with two people in it. 667 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 3: It was like a husband and wife and they pulled 668 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 3: me aside and said, hey, do you make a podcast. 669 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, I do. They said is it 670 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 3: up and vanished and I said yes, are you paying? Yes? 671 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 3: And they said that's so crazy. Because as we were 672 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 3: rolling up we just finished episode two. I was like, 673 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 3: this is absolutely insane right now, what are the chances? 674 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 3: So I guess people are as interested in Crestone as 675 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 3: I am, and it's not all bad. There's a lot 676 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,359 Speaker 3: of good people here, a lot of interesting people here, 677 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 3: and there's a lot to learn here. But yeah, I 678 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 3: thought that was so strange that the only run in 679 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 3: I had yesterday was with a listener who had just 680 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 3: heard on the podcast Candace telling this story about UFO's 681 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 3: in the sky. And then I overhear them as I'm 682 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 3: leaving Candace telling them the same story that they heard 683 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 3: on the podcast just a few minutes earlier. 684 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,919 Speaker 2: That is so awesome. All right. So there's one more 685 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 2: just connection that we have to ask you about, and 686 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 2: that is this little Netflix documentary called Wild Wild Country 687 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 2: and the Ragniche movement. 688 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 3: Is there? 689 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 2: What is the connection between that group of people and Crestone. 690 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 3: So I was in a different interview. I was talking 691 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 3: about a guy who will emerge later on in the series, 692 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 3: and he's one of the people who attends the Drum Circles. Guy, 693 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 3: very eclectic, very interesting background. His life story is just 694 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 3: would blow your mind. But as we were in there, 695 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 3: in his hobbit shaped house, he calls it a Hobbit house. 696 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 3: It looks like it's straight out of Lord of the 697 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 3: Rings and he built it himself. We're in this hobbit 698 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 3: house of his and I see a picture of Rajniche 699 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 3: on the wall, and so one of our producers asked 700 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 3: him about it, and he says that he was a 701 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 3: part of that group. He was there, and then after 702 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,879 Speaker 3: he left there, he came to Crestone and he's been 703 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 3: here ever since. I was like, that's unbelievable. And I 704 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 3: had just finished Wiwold Country, which is amazing. You should 705 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 3: check it out if you haven't. But that just gives 706 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 3: you a little insight to the kind of people that 707 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 3: are here. It's the same kind of people. It's a 708 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 3: bunch of different beliefs and everyone is very convicted about it, 709 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 3: but they all work together in unison and it's pretty 710 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 3: bizarre to see. But just everyone here has their own story. 711 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 3: You do not end up in Christone is at the 712 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 3: very end of the road. It You do not end 713 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 3: up here on accident. So everyone came here for a reason. 714 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,720 Speaker 3: So the more people you talk to, the more interesting 715 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 3: stories you find, because everyone has a backstory. 716 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 4: And we start to hear in the early episodes of 717 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 4: the new season about one of the reasons people might 718 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 4: have ended up there, which is the kind of somewhat 719 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 4: booming to my understanding, drug scene, and Crystal supposedly possibly 720 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 4: had some involvement in that world. Is there anything that 721 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 4: you can tell us about what might be coming next 722 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 4: to some kind of teaser. Don't want any spoilers, but 723 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,320 Speaker 4: this is fascinating stuff. 724 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. So this being a very spiritual place, over the years, 725 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 3: it has attracted sort of a drug culture, and I 726 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 3: think it's in some way it's been perpetuated by the 727 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 3: legalization of marijuana. Hear personally marijuana youth. That's totally fine. 728 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 3: That's not a big deal to me. It shouldn't be 729 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 3: a big deal anywhere, And it's extremely legal here. No 730 00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 3: one even thinks or talks about it. There's you know, 731 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:05,280 Speaker 3: weed stores everywhere here. But I think that being so remote, 732 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 3: it's not very policed here. There's not a lot of 733 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 3: police presence here, and so I think what's happened over 734 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 3: time is what the sheriff refers to as trust fund kids, 735 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 3: people kids that are in their mid twenties late thirties 736 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 3: who have money and don't work and just come out 737 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 3: here and live off bridge and sort of kind of, 738 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 3: you know, linger around town and cause disruptions and just 739 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 3: living wild out here and being crazy. And there's been 740 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 3: a over the years, the past couple of years, there's 741 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 3: been more and more people like this, And so what 742 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 3: we're thinking is that at some point along Crystal's journey 743 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 3: here in Crestone, she had a run in with these 744 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 3: people and got closer with them, and something in this 745 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,760 Speaker 3: friend circle may have happened. And so as the series 746 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 3: goes on, we start kind of honing in on who 747 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 3: and what are we looking for here. Who did Crystal 748 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 3: know here that knows where she is? Because we are 749 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 3: very confident that someone here knows where Crystal is And 750 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 3: the question is why aren't they saying anything about it? 751 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,280 Speaker 3: And is it a murder case? 752 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:22,719 Speaker 2: Dude? Okay, are you sold? Yeah? I'm in, I'm in. Well, 753 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 2: like I said, I just listened to season two today, 754 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 2: so or excuse me, episode two today, and yes, I 755 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 2: just want to go to that watchtower. That's all I 756 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 2: want to go. Spend line. 757 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: Man, It's so cool that you love it, and we 758 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: hope that you listeners will take this as a sign, 759 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,280 Speaker 1: whether directly from us or from some extraterrestrial in the sky, 760 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: to check out Up and Vanished season two. And just 761 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: to be completely clear with everyone listening, Matt Noll, super 762 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 1: producer Paul and I also don't know what's going to happen, correct, 763 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: so sore, we are experiencing this story along with you 764 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: and Paine. We want to thank you so much for 765 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: giving us this first hand look behind the scenes of 766 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: Up and Vanished, of Atlanta Monster and a little bit 767 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,320 Speaker 1: of a prescient look at Up and Vanished season two. 768 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: But these are some huge projects that you have done 769 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: with Tenderfoot TV, which is the larger entity at work here. 770 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: Could you tell our listeners where they can go to 771 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 1: learn more about upcoming projects from Tenderfoot Sure. 772 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 3: Our company website is tenderfoot dot TV. As far as 773 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 3: up Advantage goes, you can go to Upandvantas dot com. 774 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 3: We're currently in season two. There's been two episodes released 775 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,360 Speaker 3: so far or play on going twelve episodes, but also 776 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 3: sprinkling in a few bonus episodes that are really, in 777 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 3: my eyes, not even bonus episodes. The will be people 778 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 3: that you meet along this journey that you may find 779 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 3: very interesting, and we found them pretty interesting as well. 780 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,359 Speaker 3: So some of the side episodes will be sort of 781 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 3: on these different characters they run into and all the 782 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 3: strange ways they intersect into Crystal's life. But yeah, all 783 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,840 Speaker 3: the social media handles are up and vanished to follow me. 784 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 3: It's just Payne lindsay. But yeah, we're excited about season 785 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,279 Speaker 3: two and hope to have a positive result and at 786 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 3: the very least be able to memorialize Crystal and tell 787 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:26,800 Speaker 3: her story. 788 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,240 Speaker 2: Awesome, thank you so much, Pain. We all look forward 789 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 2: to the journey that we're going to take with you 790 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 2: as you take us there. 791 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: Agreed. 792 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:34,720 Speaker 3: Awesome. 793 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: Agreed. And as a reminder, if you, for some reason 794 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: have not listened to Atlanta Monster yet, you can listen 795 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: to the entire thing today. It is very much binge worthy. 796 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: You can also find every single show that we have 797 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,800 Speaker 1: ever done on our website Stuff they don't want you 798 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 1: to know dot com. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, 799 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: and Twitter. We don't want to have to do the 800 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: whole run down. 801 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, there we did, and that's the end of this 802 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 2: classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about 803 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 2: this episode, you can get into contact with us in 804 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 2: a number of different ways. One of the best is 805 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 2: to give us a call. Our number is one eight 806 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 2: three three st d WYTK. If you don't want to 807 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,320 Speaker 2: do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email. 808 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 5: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 809 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to know is a production 810 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 811 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.