1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: Brought to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch, committed 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: to bringing higher finance to lower carbon named the most 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: innovative investment bank for climate change and sustainability by the Banker. 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: That's the power of Global Connections. Bank of America North 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: America member f d i C. This is Masters in 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: Business with Barry Ridholtz on Boomberg Radio. This week on 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: the podcast, I have James Glick. He is an author 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: and journalist at The New York Times who has covered 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: science and technology for a long time. I've been a 10 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: fan of his for many, many years, going back to 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: really the first book he ever wrote, called Chaos, Making 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: of a New Science. I'm a physics geek, it's sort 13 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: of my background, and at the time this book came out, 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: it was really cunning edge stuff. It was absolutely fascinating. 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: It's not the most accessible subject, but i'mronically long before 16 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: I joined finance, chaos UH and chaos theory had all 17 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: sorts of applications UH to the world of markets and investing. 18 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: It's not a coincidence that theoretical physicists and mathematicians end 19 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: up working on Wall Street. The ability to deal with 20 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: issues of uncertainty and probability and randomness are really really 21 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: helpful when when thinking about markets. This was a really 22 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: unusual book. It's a very challenging subject and Click makes 23 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: it accessible and really quite quite fascinating and enjoyable. UH. 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: From the book comes the term the butterfly effect, which 25 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: Click is credited with popularizing. But that's just one book 26 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: he had written many years ago. He's written dozens of books, 27 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: including biographies on Richard Lineman and Isaac Newton, and What 28 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: Just Happened, which is about technology, and Faster, which is 29 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: about changes in technology. I think his his magnum opus 30 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: is UH The Information, A History A Theory of flood. 31 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: It is just a brilliant exposition about information theory and 32 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: how all technology has tracked various ways of communicating uh 33 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: as people. UM, It's really a brilliant, brilliant book. Who 34 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: was nominated for a Pulitzer Uh. It's totally totally readable. 35 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: I I found it to be delightful to just dive into. 36 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: I think I read it on the beach on vacation 37 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: in in in a day and a half for two days. UH. 38 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: And his most recent book is actually a little off 39 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: the beaten path. It's quite charming. It's called Time Travel History, 40 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: and it discusses how time travel as a concept has developed. 41 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: You you may be shocked to learn that before H. G. 42 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: Wells's book The Time Machine, there was no such thing 43 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: as time travel. Nobody had even conceptualized it. It simply 44 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: didn't exist. Anyway, I could babble about the books he's 45 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: written about over and over again. Rather than do that, 46 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: let's just jump right to my interview, my conversation with 47 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: James click Voss Masters in Business with Barry Ridholtz on 48 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: Boomberg Radio. My special guest today is James Gleek. He 49 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite science writers, perhaps best described 50 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: as a historian of science ideas, looking at the impact 51 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: of technology on our understanding of the world. He is 52 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: the author of Chaos, Making of a New Science, The Information, 53 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: A History, A Theory of Flood, and his latest book 54 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: is Time Travel History. Several of his books have been 55 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: nominated for Pulitzer Prizes and National Book Finalist Awards. The 56 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: Information was awarded the pen Literary Science Award as well 57 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:16,559 Speaker 1: as the Royal Society Witton Prize for Science Books. James Glick, 58 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg. Well, thank you. I'm happy to be here. 59 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: I have to start out asking about your background, because 60 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: you're really the fact that you're a science writer is 61 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: sort of surprising. You majored in English and linguistics. How 62 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: did that morph into science writing? I was a journalist. 63 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: I wasn't. I wasn't any kind of scientist, and I 64 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: I never intended to be a science writer, and I'm 65 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: hardly I don't really think I'm a science writer now. 66 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: And you know, Time Travel isn't really a science book. 67 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: Well not yet, but one day it might be. Well 68 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: we we can dream, but it isn't. But but it 69 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: really isn't. I mean, I have a I have a 70 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: feeling that if you go into the bookstore you can 71 00:04:58,080 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: probably find it in the science section. But I think 72 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: it's actually it's actually a mistake. So in general, your 73 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: books are these deeply researched, years in the making sort 74 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: of projects. What what made you approach book writing in 75 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: that way? I approached book writing in the first place 76 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: as a journalist and deeply researched. Well, that's you know, 77 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: that's what you do. You go out and you talk 78 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: to people, you do reporting. I thought of it as 79 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: reporting before I thought of it as research. It's changed, 80 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: it's changed a little bit over the years. But my 81 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: first book, Chaos was about something dramatic that was happening 82 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: in the world of science that wasn't getting any attention 83 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: as far as I could see. And I learned about 84 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: it almost by accident when I was writing a profile 85 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: of a of a scientist, and I was only writing 86 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: profiles of scientists because I was interested in science. I 87 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: liked it, so which would that be Mandelbrod or or Um. No. Ways, 88 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: the way it actually came about was I wrote a 89 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: profile early on of Douglas Hofstader. Sure I read go 90 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: to lesch Bach exactly right, and he was, you know, 91 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: he was a computer scientist and was um had a 92 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: lot to say about consciousness. And he was the one 93 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: who told me that he had heard about this thing 94 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: called Kass theory that was going on, and that that 95 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: not just mathematicians and physicists but also economists and meteorologists 96 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: and by all everybody was talking about chaos theory, but 97 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: it was very much under the radar. And I thought, well, 98 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: that sounds kind of cool, and it was, and and 99 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: I've been recommending that book for for many years. Well, 100 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: will come back to that, um so somewhat unusual career path. 101 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: Then if you started out as a journalist, how do 102 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: you veer from someone doing broad interviews to somebody doing 103 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: these really deep dives into very very comprehensive and complicated 104 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: subjects like information theory or chaos theory. Well, chaos theory 105 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: just you know, as I said, started out as a 106 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: kind of journalism I was. I felt I was reporting 107 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: on something that was very real, that was happening in 108 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: the world, and it just happened to be science, and 109 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: I approached it. I intended to approach it the way 110 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: a political reporter would approach politics, or a reporter specializing 111 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: in art would approach art. You know, it just happened 112 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: to be science, and a line a bunch of experts 113 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: asked them questions, some dumb questions, and figure out what 114 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: was going on, and I wanted to My goal in 115 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: that book wasn't so much explained the ideas of chaos 116 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: as tell the story of how this new science was 117 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: being born, and tell the stories of the individual scientists 118 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: and find out what they were thinking and how they 119 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: communicated with one another. And that was just I mean, 120 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: that's the kind of book I like to read, So 121 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,679 Speaker 1: that's the kind of book I wrote. But it's true. 122 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: Um not the usual approach to writing a book on 123 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: science then, or do you think of the Worst Day 124 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: of Dagon? Similar? But I'm not sure there is one 125 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: usual approach. You know, science writing covers a lot of territory, 126 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: a lot of there's a kind of science writing that's 127 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: written by scientists, and they write about their own work, 128 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: or they write about other things in the field. I mean, 129 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: I was a huge admirer of Stephen Jay Gould, who 130 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: wrote um the most beautiful essays, and they often turned 131 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: into books about his own work and work that was 132 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: connected to his work. And he had a very broad 133 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: view of the world, and you could learn a lot 134 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: from reading his stuff. And there are many there are 135 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: people today who write about physics, who are physicists, and 136 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: they're just trying to explain, maybe in a popular way, 137 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: the things they know. I don't like the word popularization, 138 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: maybe because I'm not an expert myself. You know, I'm 139 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: not trying to popularize things. I'm trying to write about 140 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: things that I care about and in some cases barely 141 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: understand when I get started. The word popularize often implies 142 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: a dumbing down from mass audience. Exactly, you're you have 143 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: never been accused of of doing and I don't know 144 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: how you dumb care. I don't know. I've been accused 145 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: of just about everything. Barry, thank you, but um, but 146 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: not that. No, but I'm not. I don't need to 147 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: dumb anything down. I need to raise my own understanding 148 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: to the level of grasping the stuff I'm writing about. 149 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My 150 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: guest this week is James Glicky is the author of 151 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: numerous books, most recently time Travel History, and let's jump 152 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: right into this. I was astonished to learned from your 153 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: book that prior to H. G. Wells, there really wasn't 154 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: a whole lot of discussion of time travel. How is 155 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: that possible? Not just not a lot of discussion? Time 156 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: travel didn't exist. The words the words literally were not 157 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: used in English. If you had said to somebody, are 158 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: you interested in time travel? They would have just looked 159 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: at you as if you were crazy. And yes, I 160 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: was astonished too. If there was one thing that got 161 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: me going on this as a book subject, it was 162 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: that discovery that that the idea of time travel has 163 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: had a relatively short lifetime, barely essential. And the reason 164 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: it's hard to believe. I mean, I I assume that 165 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: that some of the people listening to us are thinking, well, 166 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: that's not true, that's ridiculous. What about X and X 167 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: might be I'm going to guess now people might be thinking, 168 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: weren't there Greek myths that involved traveling through time? Or 169 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: what about a Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens, which was 170 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: a little before H. G. Wells that clearly didn't involve 171 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: time travel, then involved We're going to show you a 172 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: potential future. That is the difference, and then rip Van 173 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: Winkle sleeps into the future. And you could say, you 174 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: could argue, with the advantage of hindsight, that that's a 175 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: kind of time travel if you want to explore the literature, 176 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: which I did have to do extensively there. Um, there 177 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: were sort of precursors to the idea, but until H. G. Wells, 178 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: nobody imagined a machine or any other method where you 179 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: could choose to transport yourself to another place in time, 180 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: in the past or in the future. There was no 181 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: possibility of volition, and of course Wells jumped right into it. 182 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: He invented a machine with a lever, and his time 183 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: traveler as he called him, hops on the machine and 184 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: sends himself hurtling into the future. So what was it 185 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: that led you to an interest in time travel? It's 186 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: so different than most of your other world, where there's 187 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: an underlying theme of some specific branch of science and 188 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: the impact that it in technology has on society and culture. 189 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: And it's a more philosophical approach to a harder science 190 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: e sort of discussion. This is very science fiction, fun 191 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: sort of thing. What made you say let's try this? 192 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: I would say it's you're right, it's not a science book. 193 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a philosophical book. At least 194 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: there's some certainly some philosophy in it. It couldn't be avoided. 195 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: Once again, I I wanted to tell a story, and 196 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: the story was It started with a question. The question 197 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: was why did this powerful and exciting, kind of exhilarating 198 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: idea of time travel arise in the first place? Why 199 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: did it arise at this particular time in the mind 200 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: of H. G. Wells, a young writer he had never 201 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: written a book before, trying to make a living in 202 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: eighteen England. And then what happened to turn this primitive 203 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: version of time travel, born out of the blue, into 204 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: the very complicated and various cornucopia of things that were 205 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: so familiar with today. I mean, we've got time travel cartoons, 206 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: you know, I know, eight year old to get up 207 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: in the morning and start arguing about the paradoxus of 208 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: time travel. We are very sophisticated about time travel, and 209 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: so I wanted to chart that as a story, to 210 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: watch the ideas get handed from one person to another, 211 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: and watch new writers. And we're talking about people who 212 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: range from pulp science writers in New York in the 213 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: nine twenties to literary writers like James Joyce and Virginia 214 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: Wolf also in the early twentieth century, and scientists beginning 215 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: with Einstein, all toying with ideas of time in very 216 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: imagine native new ways. We have a tendency to you know, 217 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: we live in the world and we know how things are, 218 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: and we have a tendency to think it's always been 219 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: like that, but it hasn't. And I just think it's 220 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: it's really fun to watch the ideas transform. That's classic 221 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: hindsight biases that well, of course it worked out this way. 222 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: How else could it have worked out. It's very difficult 223 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: to go back and unimagined an idea after you're familiar 224 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: with it. So what was it about the Industrial Age 225 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: and whatever, all of the new technologies that came about 226 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: at the turn of the prior century, in the ninet 227 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: whatever that put this out in the air and allowed 228 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: so many people to conceptualize it when it had never 229 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: really been thought about previous. There were a lot of 230 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: things happening all at once. One thing that was happening 231 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: was that there was a new idea of futurity. There 232 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: was a new ability to imagine the future and a 233 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,479 Speaker 1: new interest in the future that depended on the Industrial 234 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: Revolution and then the acceleration of technology. G When you 235 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: think about it, if you took your time machine back 236 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: and arrived on a farm in the fifteenth century and 237 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: asked the first person you met, what is what do 238 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: you think the world is going to be like for 239 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: your grandchildren? They would say, what are you talking about? 240 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: The world is going to be the same for my grandchildren. 241 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: You know they're going to be using the same plows 242 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: that I'm using because my grandparents used those plows, and 243 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: there was nothing like the conception that we have of 244 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: the progress of technology, which starts to seem inevitable to us. 245 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: But by the end of the nineteenth century, there were 246 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: railroads steaming across the landscape. There was the electric telegraph 247 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: sending instant messages at the speed of electricity, and people 248 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: were very conscious of how life was changing. They could 249 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: see their lives changing right in front of them, and 250 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: then they could start to wonder and get excited about 251 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: how life was going to be in a hundred years. 252 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: How significant were railroads along with the telegraph and in 253 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: having people recognize that time wasn't necessarily a constant that 254 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: they had to think about time zones in different places 255 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: across the country. How important was that development to Ah, Well, 256 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: that's a really good question, Barry, because you're right it was. 257 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: It's exactly because of railroads and the telegraph, both of 258 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: those technologies that clocks were changing. The telegraph made it 259 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: possible to synchronize clocks electrically across great distances, which had 260 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: never been possible before. When you think about it, if 261 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: you had a clock in New York and you had 262 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: a clock in Chicago, who would care what those you know, 263 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: because because it would take days to get from New 264 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: York to Chicago. So first the railroad made it kind 265 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: of necessary to have accurate clocks in different places and 266 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: help people notice that the sun was in a different 267 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: place in the sky in New York and Chicago. And 268 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: then the telegraph made it possible to synchronize the clocks. 269 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just Eighth d Well, it was also 270 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: Einstein who was living in a world with these new technologies, 271 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: and as a patent clerk, he was reading patents that 272 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: had to do with synchronizing clocks, and he was starting 273 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: to think about what what if you take a clock 274 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: and you put it in motion at high speed? Does 275 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: anything change? You know, all of these things were happening 276 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: at once. I'm Barry Ridults. You're listening to Master's in 277 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: Business on Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is James Glick. 278 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: He is the author of numerous books, most recently time 279 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: travel History. His first book was Chaos, Making of a 280 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: New Science. And I have to ask you, this is 281 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: an extremely complex subject in physics. What on Earth made 282 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: you for your first book say, I know, I'll tackle 283 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: chaos theory? Well, it wasn't, I know it was it 284 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: was Woa, there's a thing called chaos theory. Okay, I mean, right, 285 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: we we've it's it's kind of familiar now. People now, 286 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: for example, have seen Jurassic Park and they watched Jeff 287 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: Goldblum explain chaos mansplain chaos theory in fact, but it 288 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: was brand new. And I was interested in science and 289 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: writing about some scientists, and I heard about this thing, 290 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: and I thought, I want to know what that is. 291 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: And then as I learned what it was, I realized 292 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: that it was a kind of science that really mattered 293 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: to people who might not otherwise care about the esoterica 294 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: of theoretical physics. It was a very, I felt, a 295 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: very human kind of science. And one thing, one thing 296 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: that was unusual about it was that it was cross disciplinary. 297 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: That it involved people studying the weather, people studying the 298 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: physiology of the human heart. It involved economics as well 299 00:18:53,880 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: as theoretical physics. And that was because irregularity and disorder 300 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: and complexity arise in all of these different areas, and 301 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: as humans, we're interested in that, right. I mean, I'm 302 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: not a scientist myself, so I have the kind of 303 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: I have the prejudice that if I'm interested in it, 304 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 1: other people are going to be interested in it too. 305 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: It can't be that esoteric, and that was true of chaos. 306 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: So you're credited with making the expression the butterfly affect 307 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: a household word. Um explained what the butterfly Well, I 308 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: didn't invent the butterfly effect. It was invented by a meteorologist, 309 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: Edward Lorenz, who was one of the pioneers of chaos theory, 310 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: and he discovered and proved that the Earth's weather is 311 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: a chaotic system in this in this definite technical sense, 312 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: that it's so unstable and so subject to small perturbations 313 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: that the flapping of a butterfly's wing in one part 314 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: of the globe at one instant can actually affect the 315 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: the path of a hurricane a month later on the 316 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: far side of the globe. That is not obviously true. 317 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: I mean it could be the Earth's weather could be 318 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: designed in a different way such that the flapping of 319 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: the butterfly's wings would just dissipate and it wouldn't be important, 320 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: and it would take a giant perturbation to actually have 321 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: an effect on something as large as the course of 322 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: a hurricane. So that's a surprise, and it had to 323 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: be proved mathematically and it does turn out to be true. 324 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: And it's why to this day, weather forecasting, no matter 325 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: how powerful our computers get, is such an imperfect science. 326 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: So so let's talk about something else that involves imperfect 327 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: forecasts where small perturbations have outside effects, and that's the 328 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: stock market. I'm gonna pull a line from Chaos the book. 329 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: Markets exhibit unstable, a periodic behavior in deterministic nonlinear dynamism 330 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: sensitive to initial conditions. Now you were writing in general 331 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: about theory of chaos, but that is very applicable to 332 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: stock markets. That they're nonlinear, meaning a small change can 333 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: have an outsize effect. That they're not they're a periodic 334 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: in that there's sort of a cycle. You know, it's 335 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: colder in the winter and warmer in the summer, but 336 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: the day to day changes appear to be fairly random. 337 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: There are all sorts of interesting parallels between chaos theory 338 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: and the markets. Have you ever heard much back from 339 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: people who work in finance or or work investing as 340 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: to how chaos theory is applicable to investing. I have 341 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: heard from people, and people have tried to explore it, 342 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: and in fact, some of the chaos scientists who I 343 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: wrote about in that book all those years ago, try 344 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: to apply k Us theory to the markets, and I 345 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: can't say whether they had any particular success. Personally, I'm 346 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: a little bit skeptical. I think if anybody had had 347 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: a magic trick for applying the science of chaos to 348 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: making money in the market, well, I don't know if 349 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: we'd know about it. Coming up, we continue our conversation 350 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: with James Glick discussing information theory and human history. I'm 351 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: Barry rid Hults. You're listening to Masters in Business on 352 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. My special guest this week is author James Glick, 353 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: whose most recent book is called Time Travel History. He's 354 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: previously written biographies of Richard Feynman and Isaac Newton, as 355 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: well as a couple of other books, Chaos, The Making 356 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: of a New Science, and what I think is a 357 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: tour to force book. The information a flood, a history, 358 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: a theory. I got that backwards somewhat. Let's talk a 359 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: little bit about this, because this is really a fascinating, 360 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 1: fascinating book. Human beings are information seeking creatures? Discuss Well, 361 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: it's like an essay question. Yes, first of all, that's 362 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: obviously true, right, Information is is what we live on. Well, 363 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: is it obviously true? Because when you were referring previously 364 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: to the farmer who lived the same life as his 365 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: grandparents and expected his children and grandchildren to live the 366 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: same life, and there was no growth from learning and 367 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: applying new information, maybe we haven't always been information seeking creatures. Well, exactly, 368 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: you're making my point for me, Barry. We have always 369 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: been information seeking creatures. We didn't always know it. We 370 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: didn't we didn't use the word information. The word information 371 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: now has a scientific meaning, and we're comfortable with that. 372 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: Even if we aren't scientists. We know what the unit 373 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: of measure of information is. It's the bit, right, That's 374 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: a fundamental particle, on or off, yes or no. It's 375 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: at the root of all of our computers and our 376 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: communication devices. Information is being transmitted in bits, but that's 377 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: the language of how it's communicated. It's it's on or off. 378 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: And with that binary system you can create a universe 379 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: of things. Is but is that really the bottom building 380 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: block of of information there is? Because there's nothing smaller 381 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: than yes or no, than yes or no. It's if 382 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: you want to if you want to measure how much 383 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: information there is in something, how much information is there 384 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: in a book? How much information is there in three 385 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: minutes of audio of a certain quality? How much information 386 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: is there in a photograph or a video. We're fairly comfortable, 387 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: I think, asking that question how much information? It implies 388 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: that information is a thing you can measure, and if 389 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: you're measuring it, there has to be a unit of measure, 390 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: and there has to be well, there wouldn't have to 391 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: be a smallest amount. You could imagine an infinitesimal amount 392 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: of information, But in fact there is a smallest amount. 393 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: It's one bit. There can't be any less than that. 394 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about some of the 395 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: concepts that come up in the book, starting with drums 396 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: and going to alphabets. How does that then move on 397 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: to computing and more complex technologies. Because we now have 398 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: this expansive view of information as a kind of general 399 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,479 Speaker 1: category of things, we can think about all the different 400 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: information technologies. Well, we know there are a lot of 401 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: them that rule our lives now, right, we've got an 402 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: information gadget in our pocket. Probably we a lot of 403 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: information comes to us on screens. The networks of the 404 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: Internet are a kind of information technology, just as television 405 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: is and before that the radio. But before that there 406 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: was the telegraph, and before that, if you you know, 407 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: we start to think more broadly about information. We know 408 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: that the printing press was an information technology, and even 409 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: before that, the invention of the alphabet changed the way 410 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: human beings process, transmit, and store information. So all of 411 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: those are technologies, and you can start to think about 412 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: what they have in common and what the differences are, 413 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: and how they evolved and how they changed our lives. 414 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the modern era and the Internet. 415 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: What's the significance of Wikipedia. What's the significance of the 416 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: Internet for our ability to perceive and manipulate information. That's 417 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: a pretty big question. What's the significance? There are a 418 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: lot of things going on all at once. You mentioned Wikipedia. 419 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: I happen to like Wikipedia. I'm a fan. In fact, 420 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: I think it's it's really an extraordinary monument in the 421 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: information era. Of all of the giant information enterprises, it's 422 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: the only one that isn't designed to make money. It's 423 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: never made a penny, and if it continues on its 424 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: current course, it never will. It's entirely crowdsourced. When it 425 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: started out, it was kind of famously inaccurate, right, And 426 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: maybe it is in some circles famously inaccurate. Schools probably 427 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: don't allow students to cite Wikipedia as a final source 428 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: on anything. Newspapers certainly don't. On the other hand, we 429 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: all rely on it, a lot, more of us rely 430 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: on it than it then admit it. And it's astoundingly 431 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: good when you think about it. You know, if you 432 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: want to start doing research on any subject, you look 433 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: it up on Wikipedia, and it doesn't matter so much 434 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: what was written. As the whole run of sources to 435 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: truly authoritative sources at the bottom is a great place 436 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: to start doing sources you can cite and quote if 437 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: you can't quote Wikipedia, right, Okay, So here we are 438 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 1: both praising Wikipedia. And yet it remains true that at 439 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: this moment anybody who's listening to us could, as a 440 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: prank look up any not any because some of them 441 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: are are kind of protected now, but could look up 442 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: most of what's on Wikipedia, just change it. So it's 443 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: a kind of miracle that, given its vulnerability to mischief 444 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: and to just plain carelessness, it's as accurate as it is. 445 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: The people who are inclined to make mischief are far 446 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: less motivated than the people who really care deeply about 447 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: a subject. You have a run of different experts writing 448 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 1: about it. It's a crowdsourced version of an encyclopedia. And 449 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: it seems Yeah, the mischief makers can have a little 450 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: fun on the on the periphery, but the people who 451 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: cared deeply about something aren't gonna allow it to be despoiled. 452 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: Or at least that's how it seems to work in 453 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: the real world. Yeah, of course there are other problems too. 454 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: Besides besides obvious errors, there there's opinion and their points 455 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: of view, and and we we seem to be living 456 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: through an election where um, people have not just different opinions, 457 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: but they feel entitled to their own sets of facts. 458 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: And Wikipedia, like the rest of us, gets embroiled into 459 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: disputes over over what's actually true because and this has 460 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: been called the post factual era well, and and with 461 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,959 Speaker 1: the best of intentions, we can't ever be absolutely certain 462 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: that we have a claim to to the truth. And 463 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: so now another thing I guess we've learned from Wikipedia, 464 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: or maybe from the Internet in general, is two always 465 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: at least I think this is what we should have 466 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: learned to have a little bit of humility about what 467 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: we think we know to be true, to recognize that 468 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: our knowledge is provisional, to keep an open mind and 469 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: continue to listen to other possibilities as scientists do as 470 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: the best scientists have always done. The best scientists don't 471 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: say here's the truth. I have arrived at it. That's final, 472 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: end of story for those of you joining us. Now 473 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: we're speaking with James Glick. He's the author of The Information, 474 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: A Theory of History of Flood. Let me pull a 475 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,959 Speaker 1: quote out of the book that I really like you wrote, 476 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: the same paradox was destined to reappear in different guises, 477 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: each technology of information bringing its own power and its 478 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: own fears. Would we say that's still true today? Well, 479 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: isn't it. Every time we get a new social network, 480 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: or a or a a new uh, a new device, 481 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: some people worry that it's just gonna drain us of humanity, right, 482 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: that we're gonna we're going to maybe gain some kinds 483 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: of knowledge and then lose some of their skills. And 484 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: that's always been true. I mean, when when electronic calculators arrived, 485 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: people started very quickly to forget how to do arithmetic. 486 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: But before that, when well, for that matter, when writing 487 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: was invented, Plato worried about the effect it was going 488 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: to have on human memory. I used to have a 489 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: thousand phone numbers in my head. Now, courtesy of the 490 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: I phone, I don't know anybody's phone number. So there 491 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: you go. And is that a good thing or a 492 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: bad thing? You can take your pick. I would I 493 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: suspect I only have a finite capacity, and I'm freeing 494 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: up some space for perhaps more useful functions. But along 495 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: the same lines, while I was preparing for this, uh 496 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: and researching and googling certain things, I came across Louis c. 497 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: K On I think it was on Conan, and he 498 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: does this hilarious bit about everything is amazing and nobody's happy. 499 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: It's told in Jess. But how accurate is that sentiment? Well, yes, 500 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: it's it's partly a joke because it's an exaggeration to 501 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: say that nobody's happy. But I think what he's pointing 502 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: out is is something that's healthy that we have these 503 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: We have tremendous powers. We have what would have looked 504 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: to our grandparents like the magical abilities to access one 505 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: another there and to access sources of information. And yet 506 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: we don't necessarily feel any smarter, and that's good because 507 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: we aren't any smarter. We have we have new sources 508 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: of knowledge, and we have new reasons to worry about 509 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: attention deficit disorder, to worry about um, about new sources 510 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: of error, and as I say too, hopefully remain humble. 511 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: We have been speaking with author James Glick, most recently 512 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: writing Time Travel a History on Twitter. You're at James 513 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: Glick spelled g L E I c k at James Glick. 514 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and stick around 515 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: for the podcast extras, where the tape will continue to 516 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: roll as we discuss all things time travel related. Be 517 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: sure and check out my daily column on Bloomberg View 518 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: dot com or follow me on Twitter at Riholts. I'm 519 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: Barry Riholts. You've and listening to Masters in Business on 520 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio, brought to you by Bank of America. Merrill Lynch. 521 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: Seeing what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. 522 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: Global Research that helps You Harness disruption. Voted top global 523 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: research firm five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Finner and 524 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: Smith Incorporated. Welcome to the podcast, James, thank you so 525 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: much for doing this. I have been a fan of 526 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: yours for quite a while, and i've I've enjoyed your books, Um, 527 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: and I remember not just plowing through Chaos, which for 528 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: a recovering physics want was a delight, but The Information 529 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: was one of those books that was I can't complimented enough. 530 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: It's a tour de force of information theory and human 531 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: technological development. It's almost as if information theory is an 532 00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: overlay across every single technology that we've developed, more or 533 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: less from sharp and Stones forward. Is that an overstatement 534 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: or no? I think you got that. I think you've 535 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: got that exactly right, Mary, And you know we're pretty 536 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: well aware of that. These days, we hear a lot 537 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: about information. We know this is the information age. It's 538 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 1: been the information age now for more than fifty years. 539 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: So it's it's interesting too to stop and explore that 540 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: and figure out how information became a thing and and 541 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: how we can make it a useful part of our 542 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: lives without letting it overwhelm us. So I I went 543 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: through Chaos, I reviewed UM the Information I revisited faster. UM. 544 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: I didn't go through Isaac Newton or or Feynman, Although 545 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: I've listened to his lecture, so I'm kind of more 546 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: or less up to speed with that. And I started 547 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 1: time travel recently, and I'm I'm pretty much halfway through. 548 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: So I have some questions for you about it that 549 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: I find fascinating, many of which you allude to in 550 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: the beginning, And hopefully I'm not going to ask you 551 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: stuff that you resolve later in the book. But one 552 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: of the questions that comes up over and over again 553 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: philosophically in the book is time real? Does time actually exist? 554 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: Or is it just an allusion to us pathetic humans? 555 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: And isn't that kind of Isn't it funny that we 556 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: even ask a question like that, because and physicists do 557 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: ask it. Physicists even have they have symposia on the 558 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: question of whether time is real? Well, what does that mean? 559 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: Because if time isn't real, what have we been talking 560 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: about for all of these millennia. It's one of the 561 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: oldest concepts in the book. It is, I believe, in English, 562 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: the noun most frequently used in the language time time. 563 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: That's quite fascinating. Well, the the counter argument is, there's 564 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: only the presence you going from. We'll start with the 565 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: big bang and end up with universal entropy and the 566 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: heat death trillion years in the future. And we can 567 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 1: conceptualize the future, we can recall our own distorted perspective 568 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 1: of the past, but really there's only the here and now, 569 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: and what might be or what might have come before 570 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 1: is just that progression along. Well, there's there's what you 571 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: you might call the kind of naive person in the 572 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: street view of time, and before before that sounds too condescending, 573 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: I should say, that's that's my view of time. That 574 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: is I'm going to endorse the naive view. And and 575 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: that view is is this. It's that the only thing 576 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: that's real is the present. What's happening now, that's real, 577 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: this instant, this instant, I'm looking at you, you're looking 578 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: at me. Here we are. But I said that a 579 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,760 Speaker 1: few seconds ago, and now it's gone. It's the past 580 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: and it was real, but it's not real. We have 581 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: lost access to it. We have a memory of it, 582 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: we have records, we have artifacts, we have ruins. But 583 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: the past is gone and the future isn't real because 584 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: it doesn't exist yet. We can imagine it, we can 585 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: think about it, we can worry about it, we can 586 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: fear it. But it's not real the way the present is. 587 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: And so if you believe that, then you have what 588 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: I consider to be a kind of reasonable view of 589 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: how time works. Um, why do you say that's the 590 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: naive man in the street view? Because physicists have developed 591 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,439 Speaker 1: a more complicated view of the universe, which which we're 592 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: also familiar with, in which time is like a fourth 593 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: dimension of space, and time and space together have an 594 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: independent reality that we call space time. And you can 595 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: imagine all of creation, all of existence, as a four 596 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: dimensional space time continuum. And if you imagine this thing 597 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: as a big block, then the past is there, and 598 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: the future is there, and there's a point that our 599 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: consciousness happens to be moving through and we call that 600 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: the present. But it's an illusion to think that only 601 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: that part is real. All the rest is real too, 602 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: and you can make calculations about them using the equations 603 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: of physics. So along those lines, I think the phrase 604 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: in the book is the pink worm. Basically, somebody's life's 605 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: lifespan as existing through four dimensions, and you're seeing them. 606 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: They start out crawling, they end up on two legs, 607 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: and ultimately end up on on on three legs with 608 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: the cane. Isn't that just an abstract conception as well? 609 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: Or does physics say, well, if you really make the 610 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: fourth dimension real, that that is its own existence as well? Well? 611 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: That that pink worm that comes from a science fiction 612 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: story by Robert Heinlin, And we can we can imagine that. 613 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: You can wrap your heads around that. If you imagine 614 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: the human being that you are now as a three 615 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: dimensional object, what's the four dimensional version? It starts with 616 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 1: you as a baby, and it ends with you dead, 617 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: and along the way you could, you know, construct a 618 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: well along pink worm. But that's you know, that's a match. 619 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: That's a fantasy, right, I mean, we're still here are 620 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: We're just the three dimensional blobs that we are, and 621 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: and we are changing from one form to another. What 622 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: about Stephen hawkings um time travel party. I found that 623 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: to be kind of amusing, although I think he made 624 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: a small error in his in his calculus. What's the error? 625 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 1: So my naive view of time travel, assuming it exists, 626 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: which is a giant assumption. Um, you could go back 627 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: in time, and you could go so there's time that 628 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,720 Speaker 1: has not yet unrolled yet. Picture the manaphor is a 629 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: film camera. You can you can shoot a movie and 630 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: you can always go back and rewind and look at 631 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: anything you've shot, and you could go forward to where 632 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 1: you currently are, but you can't see anything that has 633 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: not yet been filmed. So you can travel back in time, 634 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: and you could travel up to the present, but no 635 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: further than that. Um, so you can't go into the 636 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: future that has not yet uh unrolled. So the first 637 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: time Stephen Hawkins does that the future hasn't occurred. There 638 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 1: are no time travelers to come back. It's only at 639 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: some future date in an alternative lot timeline that travelers 640 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: can come back to the future. And so this is 641 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: that's how we know, Stephen Hawkins taught us. This is 642 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: the first go through. We're not really living an alternative time. Well, 643 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: you've got an interesting theory, so in in your theory 644 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,280 Speaker 1: as possible to the pet as possible, to the past, 645 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: but not to the future beyond where it's unrolled. And 646 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about Stephen Hawkings famous invitation to time travelers. 647 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: He printed up an invitation and said, dear dear time 648 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,319 Speaker 1: travelers from the future, you're invited to this party, which 649 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: took place last week. And then he said, well, nobody 650 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: showed up. Therefore, I have proved that time travel doesn't exist. 651 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: There are no time travelers from the future among us. 652 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: He should know better because he created the paradox, had he, 653 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: and he was right this go around. But if there 654 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: is time travel that's evented a thousand years hence, then 655 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 1: in the alternative timeline where they come back and visit 656 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: his party, won't he be surprised? Well, I think Hawking was. 657 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: It was partly putting that out there with his tongue 658 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,280 Speaker 1: in his cheek, just to touch and then he, like 659 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: like other physicists, like to have fun with time travel 660 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: because it's such an exciting idea. Um. One person I 661 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: ran into said he had he had yet another theory 662 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: of for why we aren't seeing the time travelers in 663 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: our midst and it's that they're afraid of disease. There 664 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 1: you go, they don't have an immune system the way 665 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,359 Speaker 1: settlers on a new continent catch diseases that they aren't 666 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: prepared for. And so what we should do is create 667 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: quarantine areas and then sound send out the infantition. Again. 668 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: There you go. That that makes a lot of sense. 669 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: Or they could be similarly fearful of the butterfly effect 670 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: and not wanting to change future history. I'm early in 671 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: the book you talk about something I've always wondered, which 672 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 1: isn't the time aspect of it, but it's the physical 673 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: space aspect of it. We have we have the Earth 674 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: um rotating, revolving, we have the Sun and moving around 675 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 1: the entire galaxy. The galaxy is expanding from from the 676 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: point of of the Big Bang. How do you physically 677 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 1: end up given all this motion in those three dimensions? 678 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 1: When you so the Earth today, if you go into 679 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: a time machine right here and you want to go 680 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: back a thousand years, you're that taught three dimensional, those 681 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: three coordinates. It is not here, it's it's we're really 682 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: getting into the weeds here, Barry. And And it's true 683 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 1: that this is the kind of thing that if you're 684 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: going to construct a science fiction story, you have to 685 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 1: worry about, or if you don't want to worry about it, 686 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: you have to you know, a little a little hocus focus, 687 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: a little hocus focus. So H. G. Wells, when he 688 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: wrote The Time Machine, didn't worry about that. You know, 689 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 1: it didn't occur to him, or if it occurred to him, 690 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: he decided his readers weren't going to think about it, 691 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: so his time machine just advances through space and he 692 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: ignores the fact that the whole Earth is going to 693 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: be in a different place. You know, um, nowadays you 694 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: can do whatever you want if you if you want 695 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: to construct a science fiction story. And everybody who watches 696 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Who knows that the tardest, the Great Blue British 697 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: London Police block box travels through time and through space 698 00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,919 Speaker 1: and so it gets to go wherever the Doctor wants 699 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: to ascended. So I know, I only have you for 700 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: a finite amount of time, and I have a million 701 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: questions for you. Let me jump right to my favorite 702 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,759 Speaker 1: few questions I asked all my guests. Um, So, as 703 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,880 Speaker 1: a writer, who are some of your early mentors? I 704 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: don't think I had mentors because I started out as 705 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: a as a journalist. I was a reporter. I was 706 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: an editor. My my first boss at the New York 707 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: Times was the great Sydney Schanberg, who was a magnificent 708 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:37,479 Speaker 1: foreign correspondent who was Metropolitan editor when I started working 709 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: at the New York Times, and I I revered him 710 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: and still still revere him. But I can't say that 711 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,319 Speaker 1: he had all that much time for me. Um, So 712 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: let's talk about other writers and editors who might have 713 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: influenced your approach to writing. Who who do you feel 714 00:44:54,840 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: has been a um an influence on on your work? Well? Also, 715 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: let me say two contradictory things. One is I write 716 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: a kind of nonfiction that is has journalism at its root, 717 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,760 Speaker 1: even though I haven't really been a journalist for a while. 718 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: And one person, one writer I admired very much when 719 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: I was starting out, was Gay to Leaves, who, um 720 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: you know his he's known for his books now. I 721 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: don't know how well known he'll he'll be to our listeners, 722 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: but um, he wrote in Back in the Dark Ages 723 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: profiles for Esquire magazine that were absolutely magnificent. They were 724 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: a kind of writing that I really aspired to that 725 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: involved no first person, nothing about him, just kind of 726 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: intensively reported kind of work where you knew so much, 727 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,320 Speaker 1: you spent so much time with your subject and knew 728 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: so much about your subject that you could that you 729 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:06,439 Speaker 1: could achieve something close to omniscience, and you could write 730 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: about your subject the way a novelist would you. You wouldn't. 731 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,400 Speaker 1: You wouldn't just do an interview where you're talking to 732 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 1: your subject but but you would be eavesdropping on the 733 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 1: conversations that your subject is having as he or she 734 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: went through daily life. Narrative nonfiction. I love that kind 735 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,240 Speaker 1: of writing. And so the other half of my answer 736 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: to your question is I read fiction. It's it's I 737 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 1: don't read very much nonfiction myself, because the writer's I 738 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,879 Speaker 1: admire most tend to be fiction writers. So let's talk 739 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 1: a little bit about your favorite books. Tell tell us 740 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 1: some books that either recently or way back when, that 741 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,840 Speaker 1: that you've really enjoyed. All right, Well, you know, favorite 742 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: books books is so arbitrary and changes week by week. 743 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: So I feel entitled to name a couple of books 744 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 1: that I talked about in time Travel because their time 745 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,280 Speaker 1: travel books, and but they aren't necessarily obvious time travel books. 746 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,280 Speaker 1: So one of them is um by the great Ursula 747 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,839 Speaker 1: k Legwin, a novel called The Lathe of Heaven, and 748 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:16,320 Speaker 1: it's not exactly time travel. It involves a helpless man 749 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,480 Speaker 1: who discovers that when he dreams, he is reshaping the future. 750 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 1: And well, hilarity ensues that I want to give the 751 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,480 Speaker 1: book away. It's a it's an imaginative tour to force 752 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: someone just did a fantastic profile on her. I want 753 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: to say it was either The Atlantic or Esquire New 754 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 1: Yorker New Yorkers that just was out like two weeks ago. 755 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 1: Actually I say that, and now I'm not a d 756 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,960 Speaker 1: percent sure, so they can check this and go back 757 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,240 Speaker 1: and edit it. But yes, I'm a great fan of hers. 758 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: She's she is just a great spirit as well as 759 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,719 Speaker 1: a great writer. Who else? Who else? Do you? What 760 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,880 Speaker 1: other books are you? Well? And the last book that 761 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: I wrote about in time Travel is the most recent 762 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 1: book by William Gibson, science science fiction writer who really 763 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,399 Speaker 1: is his visionary and transcends science fiction. And he had 764 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: avoided time travel through his whole career, even though his 765 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 1: books were set in the future. He for one reason 766 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 1: or another wasn't interested in time travel. And then suddenly 767 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 1: in his latest book, The Peripheral, he invents a new 768 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:26,759 Speaker 1: kind of time travel that is very um redolent of 769 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:31,680 Speaker 1: our world of cyberspace, which is appropriate because William Gibson 770 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: invented cyberspace. Neuromancer was mona Lisa overdrive, And so I'll 771 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,360 Speaker 1: recommend The Peripheral. The Peripheral give us a non time 772 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: travel book that you've enjoyed of recently. Um alright, well 773 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 1: just um, because I just finished reading it and Patchett's 774 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: new novel, Commonwealth, which is nothing that there's no science 775 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: fiction or anything else. She's a beautiful writer. It's a 776 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: family story that takes place over generations. And if you 777 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: forced me to bring it back to the conversation, which 778 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 1: you're not trying to do, I would say that she 779 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:15,839 Speaker 1: also is a master of using time and memory in 780 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: creative narrative ways. Sommon Wealth, so let me I'm gonna 781 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:28,160 Speaker 1: go or of script a moment. You're an accomplished writer. No. 782 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,279 Speaker 1: Three of your books nominated for Pulitzers. When you are 783 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:37,120 Speaker 1: reading something, are you just reading for escapist pleasure? Does 784 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: the craft intrude on your ability to read? Are you 785 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,560 Speaker 1: sort of noticing little oh, I see what they did here? 786 00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,960 Speaker 1: Are you noticing techniques? Or do you get definitely? But 787 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,319 Speaker 1: first of all, why escapist pleasure? Can't I just read 788 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: for you know, virtuous life, life enhancement. Well, but but 789 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:02,680 Speaker 1: that's how the criticism has always been about fiction versus nonfiction. 790 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,920 Speaker 1: I need for pleasure, and I don't feel guilty about that. 791 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:11,120 Speaker 1: But it's it's true that when I'm writing. In particular, 792 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,840 Speaker 1: there are times it often happens that I'm reading a 793 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,920 Speaker 1: book and suddenly I think, ah ha, I can steal that. 794 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: And I and I'm meaning a technique or meaning a 795 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,799 Speaker 1: technique or the way a sentence is constructed, or a 796 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,880 Speaker 1: rhythm or something I don't even know what it is, 797 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,000 Speaker 1: but something I'll need to I'll need to put the 798 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,360 Speaker 1: book down for a second and rush over to the keyboard. 799 00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:43,360 Speaker 1: So so you, as you're reading, you are stealing. But 800 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,440 Speaker 1: by the way, the reason I ask every single guest 801 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:53,040 Speaker 1: for some of their favorite books. I've had a dozen billionaires, 802 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 1: I've had just as many Nobel laureates in the studio 803 00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: and other people of accomplishment, and pretty much every single one. 804 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,880 Speaker 1: When you get to the question, so what do you 805 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: attribute your success to? The concept of constantly learning, constantly reading, 806 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: being able to take advantage of the information that someone 807 00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: someone basically lives a lifetime and says, here, I'm gonna 808 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,279 Speaker 1: spend a year and spill out what I've learned over 809 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:30,360 Speaker 1: fifty years. Have this to to ignore? That is a 810 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,799 Speaker 1: a tremendous waste and the idea of accessing books and 811 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,320 Speaker 1: knowledge and other people's experience comes up over and over. 812 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you specifically what you get out 813 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,319 Speaker 1: of reading, because you're a professional writer and and you 814 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,920 Speaker 1: pretty much address the question the way I was hoping, 815 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,120 Speaker 1: But I always asked the question. And it's amazing how 816 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,160 Speaker 1: animated some people become about the books that are so 817 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:03,520 Speaker 1: significant to them. They really, um seem to have credited 818 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:08,080 Speaker 1: reading as as an enormous part of their development. So 819 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,759 Speaker 1: so that's why that that comes up. Um, So what 820 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:17,520 Speaker 1: do you do outside of writing for for pleasure? What 821 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: do you do, uh to to keep yourself? Um, I'm 822 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: gonna rephray, I'm gonna ask that again in a slightly 823 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,800 Speaker 1: different way. So outside of the office, outside of writing, 824 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:40,279 Speaker 1: what do you do to relax away from books? What 825 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,000 Speaker 1: does anybody do? I don't know. I go to movies, 826 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:48,800 Speaker 1: I listen to music, I go to place I occasionally 827 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,759 Speaker 1: it's hard, as as it may be to believe I 828 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:56,359 Speaker 1: actually just sit quietly. Okay, that that's not hard to 829 00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,000 Speaker 1: believe at all. And and now, um, by the way, 830 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,080 Speaker 1: that's a question that had come from listeners, and people 831 00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,560 Speaker 1: always ask ask people what they do to relax outside 832 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,960 Speaker 1: of the office. And then my last it's kind of 833 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,200 Speaker 1: an interesting question. There's no office, you know, I mean 834 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,319 Speaker 1: there is an office. You have a computer somewhere. Are 835 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,319 Speaker 1: you have a desk? Right? So what do you when 836 00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:21,120 Speaker 1: you're away from the desk? That I I for the 837 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:26,560 Speaker 1: most part, I assume people are conceptualizing, um, a sort 838 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,759 Speaker 1: of grinding workload and what do people do outside of that? 839 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:33,240 Speaker 1: And these are not I can as someone who writes 840 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,680 Speaker 1: a daily column, I can tell there's an enormous amount 841 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,600 Speaker 1: of work and thought and activity and energy that goes 842 00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,560 Speaker 1: into this. It's not There may not be a physical office, 843 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,920 Speaker 1: but there is clearly a defined workspace and a lot 844 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,840 Speaker 1: of labor goes into that. Is that a fair statement? 845 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,799 Speaker 1: That's fair? Um? And there is an office, it's just 846 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,400 Speaker 1: in my house. Okay. Uh So, if a millennial or 847 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,040 Speaker 1: someone who graduated from college came up to you and 848 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,719 Speaker 1: said they were interested in a career as either a 849 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,080 Speaker 1: journalist or an author, what sort of advice would you 850 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 1: give them? Well? I got two pieces of advice. The 851 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:20,080 Speaker 1: first one is don't take too much advice from um, 852 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: people much older than yourself, And the second is just um, right, 853 00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,080 Speaker 1: the only way to the only way to learn how 854 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,880 Speaker 1: to write is to write, and um, reading about writing 855 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 1: isn't going to help. Going to school to learn how 856 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,319 Speaker 1: to write isn't going to help. You just have to 857 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,160 Speaker 1: have to write. And um, if you need to find 858 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,080 Speaker 1: somebody to give you orders, then you know, try to 859 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,560 Speaker 1: work for a newspaper. So I like the paradox of 860 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,720 Speaker 1: here's my advice, don't take my advice. I find that interesting. 861 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:57,080 Speaker 1: And finally, so you've been writing The Chaos came out 862 00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,279 Speaker 1: in eighty seven, You've been writing thirty plus years. What 863 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,160 Speaker 1: is it that you know about the craft of writing today? 864 00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,200 Speaker 1: You wish you knew thirty years ago? When you begin, 865 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,480 Speaker 1: the question implies that I know something about the craft 866 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,880 Speaker 1: of writing. And are you really going to fight me 867 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:19,359 Speaker 1: on that? I really am seriously, Ye, Pulitzer nominations, I 868 00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:24,759 Speaker 1: know this is embarrassing. Three National Book Awards. You clearly 869 00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,839 Speaker 1: know a thing or two about writing. Maybe I don't 870 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,439 Speaker 1: know what I know that I feel each time I'm 871 00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,080 Speaker 1: still figuring it out each time. Is that true you 872 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,520 Speaker 1: when you approach a new book. I do not lie 873 00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:40,080 Speaker 1: to you, Barry. I do not sit down and think, Okay, 874 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,360 Speaker 1: here's I don't have a file of index cards of 875 00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:45,480 Speaker 1: things I've learned. I think, oh my god, what am 876 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,799 Speaker 1: How am I going to do it this time? So 877 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,640 Speaker 1: each time you approach a new topic, a new subject, 878 00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:55,360 Speaker 1: a new book, you're starting from scratch. It's literally a 879 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,200 Speaker 1: blank page. Now what am I going to do with this? Oh, 880 00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,359 Speaker 1: it's always it's always a blank page. It well, the 881 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,520 Speaker 1: page itself, but the approach how you I have to 882 00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,120 Speaker 1: imagine that you have developed some skills and some techniques over, 883 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:13,600 Speaker 1: I must have some skills. But if you're accusing me 884 00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:18,680 Speaker 1: of of withholding some some magic sand click, he's not sharing. 885 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,000 Speaker 1: You know. If if other people are giving you the secret, 886 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,080 Speaker 1: I'd like I'd like to know what they are. But um, yeah, 887 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,920 Speaker 1: I'll tell you that when I write the book about 888 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:34,200 Speaker 1: this radio series. Here. Let me save people the three 889 00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,400 Speaker 1: things that come up over and over and over again. 890 00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:41,719 Speaker 1: It's hard work, it's reading, and it's a little bit 891 00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,279 Speaker 1: of luck that has those three things have come up 892 00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,040 Speaker 1: from person to person to person. And I'm referring to 893 00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:53,840 Speaker 1: people who are you know, by any measure of traditional wealth, 894 00:56:54,520 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: professional accolades, whatever, awards, and you kind of nor when 895 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,240 Speaker 1: you hear the same things over, I'm fortunate that somehow 896 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,799 Speaker 1: I've talked this building into allowing me to do this 897 00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:12,799 Speaker 1: and conning people like yourself into coming here. Um, and 898 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,560 Speaker 1: and that comes up over again. Well, I absolutely agree 899 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,920 Speaker 1: with all three of those. Oh, so there it is. 900 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,360 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to put words into your math. I 901 00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,400 Speaker 1: just wanted to share those three. We have been speaking 902 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:29,520 Speaker 1: with author James Glick, most recently. Um, he put out 903 00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:34,080 Speaker 1: the book Time Travel of History. I also highly recommend 904 00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,760 Speaker 1: the information. And if you have any sort of bend 905 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,960 Speaker 1: towards physics, I would tell you chaos is just a 906 00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,760 Speaker 1: fascinating and by the way, it's held up very well, 907 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,240 Speaker 1: mostly because you don't make any declarations. Um, this is 908 00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:49,720 Speaker 1: how it is, and this is how it's always going 909 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: to be. It's a history of what took place in 910 00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:55,960 Speaker 1: chaos theory up to that point. And I think the 911 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,120 Speaker 1: book is the test of time. You're raising your eyebrows 912 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,160 Speaker 1: and now I'm I'm I'm thanking you for saying that. Okay, well, 913 00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm not the only person who said that Time Travel 914 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,640 Speaker 1: of History. If you enjoy this conversation, be shure and 915 00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:12,760 Speaker 1: check out the other hundred or so uh such chats 916 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:14,840 Speaker 1: on iTunes. Just look up an inch or down an 917 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,160 Speaker 1: inch and you can see the rest of them. I 918 00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,840 Speaker 1: would be remiss if I did not think my booker, 919 00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:24,840 Speaker 1: Taylor Riggs. We love your comments and feedback. Be sure 920 00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:29,040 Speaker 1: to write to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg 921 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,000 Speaker 1: dot net. I'm Barry rid Holts. You've been listening to 922 00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,800 Speaker 1: Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio, brought to you by 923 00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,400 Speaker 1: Bank of America. Merrill Lynch committed to bringing higher finance 924 00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,480 Speaker 1: to lower carbon named the most innovative investment bank for 925 00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:47,280 Speaker 1: climate change and sustainability by the Banker. That's the power 926 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:50,960 Speaker 1: of Global Connections. Bank of America North America member f 927 00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:51,440 Speaker 1: D I C