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Speaker 1: Hi there, thanks for being with us today. We're sitting

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Speaker 1: here with Princess Mabel von Naranya. Did I say your

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Speaker 1: name correctly?

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Speaker 2: Pretty well?

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, well yeah, I'm an American, so you know

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Speaker 1: you got to cut me some slack. We're under a

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Speaker 1: lot of pressure these days. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being with us today.

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Speaker 2: Very nice to be with you, Chelsea, really really lovely.

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Speaker 2: Oh wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So this is great. This is going to be

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Speaker 1: a nice educational episode for our listeners since many people

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Speaker 1: aren't aware. There's actually a child marriage crisis all around

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Speaker 1: the world, including here in the United States. So our

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Speaker 1: guest today is here to talk about that. For International

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Speaker 1: Day of the Girl, which is tomorrow, we wanted to

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Speaker 1: shed some light on this issue, and we have somebody

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Speaker 1: who knows a lot about it, so let's discuss it.

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Speaker 1: Says that nearly twelve million girls become brides each year,

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Speaker 1: which means that every three seconds a girl is forced

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Speaker 1: into marriage. I would presume that most Americans would never

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Speaker 1: think that that's happening in this country.

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Speaker 2: Not just that Americans wouldn't think about it. I think

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Speaker 2: most people all over the world were ignoring this, and

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Speaker 2: I mean think about it. The girl. Every three seconds,

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Speaker 2: that's a girl and another girl, and it goes on

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Speaker 2: and on and on, and this is incredibly damaging. So

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Speaker 2: it's a huge problem. But this imagine that you are,

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Speaker 2: let's say, a fourteen year old girl, whether you're growing

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Speaker 2: up in the US or whether you're growing up in

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Speaker 2: Latin America in Africa. One day you come out of

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Speaker 2: school and basically your parents have decided that you're no

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Speaker 2: longer going back to school, and they're going to marry

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Speaker 2: you off to a man that you haven't chosen, who's

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Speaker 2: often a bit older than you are, and you're basically

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Speaker 2: shipped off to go live with his family. And these

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Speaker 2: girls then often end up being you know, abused, either

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Speaker 2: by their in laws or by their husbands. And also

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Speaker 2: these are girls that often for them, their their wedding

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Speaker 2: night is not a happy event. Their wedding night might

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Speaker 2: be the night when they get pregnant while they are

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Speaker 2: physically children themselves.

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Speaker 3: Talk a little bit about some of the health risks

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Speaker 3: to younger girls who do get pregnant and like what

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Speaker 3: that can do to their bodies or why their bodies

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Speaker 3: are not prepared for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we all remember when we were, you know, teenagers,

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Speaker 2: we might already get our period and things, but we're

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Speaker 2: physically still still children in a way. And so what

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Speaker 2: you see is that teenagers, girls who get pregnant are

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Speaker 2: much more likely to either have complications when they're pregnant

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Speaker 2: or in childbirths. They're more likely to die in childbirths.

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Speaker 2: But also what we see happening is that their babies

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Speaker 2: are much less likely to survive the first year of life.

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Speaker 2: And many of these child brides live in places where

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Speaker 2: you don't have good health services, so if they get complications,

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Speaker 2: they can't go to a hospital or to a clinic

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Speaker 2: to get supported. Can I just ask you how you

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Speaker 2: got it?

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Speaker 1: I know you've worked with Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela,

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Speaker 1: and how did you get involved in this work?

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Speaker 2: So I was very lucky, like you say, Chelsea, to

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Speaker 2: work with a group called the Elders, which Nelson Mandela

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Speaker 2: had created, and it's a group of former heads of government,

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Speaker 2: of former UN secretary generals, really eminent individuals, including President

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Speaker 2: Jimmy Carter was a member of this group, and they

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Speaker 2: wanted to work on gender inequality. They were saying that

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Speaker 2: the fact that men and women are not equals is

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest injustices of our times. And not

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Speaker 2: only that, is also kind of stupid because if we

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Speaker 2: want to get out of poverty, women have to play

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Speaker 2: their role. It's often women who lived their families out

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Speaker 2: of poverty. And so they then started looking at like

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Speaker 2: what's happening, And we then came across the issue of

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Speaker 2: child marriage, and the issue of child marriage was it's

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Speaker 2: on the one end, you know, the two words child marriage,

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Speaker 2: say it all and everybody realizes this is not okay.

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Speaker 2: But at the same time, the world was basically not

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Speaker 2: paying attention. And I think that to a large extent

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Speaker 2: and is because these girls, they're minors. They don't often

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Speaker 2: have passports, many of these girls don't speak English. A

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Speaker 2: lot of them in places like Africa Asia don't even

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Speaker 2: have access to mobile phones, and so these girls can't

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Speaker 2: really self organize. They do not realize that what is

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Speaker 2: happening here is actually not normal and that it should stop,

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Speaker 2: and that it's not good for them. If it stops,

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Speaker 2: it's also good for their families.

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Speaker 1: And to be clear, this is a very male problem.

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Speaker 1: It's not like women are looking at young girls and saying,

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Speaker 1: let's marry these girls off.

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Speaker 3: Right, like only men have to be told by the

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Speaker 3: government not to marry actual children.

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Speaker 2: Right. It's often the father's or the community as a

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Speaker 2: whole that drives this. And it's sometimes done because of poverty.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you are really poor in your marry

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Speaker 2: your daughter of you have one less mouth to feet.

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Speaker 2: It's sometimes done because of sexual safety, because the fear

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Speaker 2: that if your daughter isn't married by a certain age,

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Speaker 2: a man might misuse her and then you know, she

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Speaker 2: kind of dishonors herself and the family. It's sometimes done

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Speaker 2: because of tradition. People just think like this is normal,

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Speaker 2: so they keep doing it. And it's always done in

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Speaker 2: a way because girls are looks upon as being less

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Speaker 2: than men and you know, less valuable, and so you

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Speaker 2: can do this with them. And I think, I mean

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Speaker 2: for me one of the So when the elders wanted

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Speaker 2: to take this on, one of the places where I

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Speaker 2: went was to Ethiopia and Africa to learn about this

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Speaker 2: much more, and I'll never forget. At some point I

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Speaker 2: sat down with a group in northern Ethiopia, where four

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Speaker 2: out of every five girls are married once they're eighteen,

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Speaker 2: and I sat down with this group of married girls,

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Speaker 2: young girls, and I asked the girl next to me,

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Speaker 2: how old when you got married? And she looked at

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Speaker 2: me and she said, well, I don't really know because

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Speaker 2: I don't have a birth cert. Difficult, so many girls

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Speaker 2: who get bored, people don't register them because it's oh

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Speaker 2: a girl, we don't need to register her. But she said,

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Speaker 2: I must have been between five and seven years old

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Speaker 2: when I got married. And I was sitting there, and

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Speaker 2: I mean, I still get emotional when I think about it,

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Speaker 2: because at that time my daughters were five and six

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Speaker 2: years old. I realized that even the lottery of life,

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Speaker 2: they have been born there, they would probably have been

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Speaker 2: child rights. And this is one of the things that

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Speaker 2: drives me in everything I do, this idea that it's

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Speaker 2: wrong that the place where you were born, that your

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Speaker 2: geography would define your destiny of life. You know, the

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Speaker 2: opportunities you get. I mean, I strongly, strongly believe that

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Speaker 2: everybody deserves equal opportunities. And that's why I'm so passionate

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Speaker 2: working on this issue.

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Speaker 1: And so your organization is called Vow VOW. Tell us

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Speaker 1: about the moment that you had the idea for VOW

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Speaker 1: at one of your friend's weddings.

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Speaker 2: That's correct. So you know, I've been done for the

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Speaker 2: last fifteen years, been working to end child marriage because yes,

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Speaker 2: an it's a sad problem. But the good news is

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Speaker 2: that there is a lot that we can do in

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Speaker 2: order to actually keep girls in school, to make sure

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Speaker 2: that communities realize that when you give the girls the

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Speaker 2: rights they deserve, you know that that that is could

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Speaker 2: not just that that is good not just for the girls,

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Speaker 2: but for the communities. And so we realized we need

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Speaker 2: to get more money to local organizations communities in Latin America,

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Speaker 2: in Africa and Asia that worked to change this and

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Speaker 2: to mobilize that money. One day, I was going to

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Speaker 2: a wedding of friends, and you know how it goes

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Speaker 2: when you go to a wedding week before and you

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Speaker 2: get the panic what should I wear? You know, and

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Speaker 2: what should I buy for the couple? And so I

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Speaker 2: went to their wedding website and you know, they had

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Speaker 2: like many you know, a wedding list where you know,

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Speaker 2: you can buy china and glass and I don't know what,

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Speaker 2: and they said, or alternatively give money to they had

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Speaker 2: chosen the good calls, and that's for me. It was

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Speaker 2: a light bulb moment. I thought like, wait, what if

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Speaker 2: the moment that people celebrates love under happy circumstances, people

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Speaker 2: who chose each other, and they're like, Okay, yes, I

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Speaker 2: want to share my life with you. What if we

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Speaker 2: turn those moments into fundraising moments to make sure that

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Speaker 2: girls elsewhere in the world can also choose love on

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Speaker 2: their own terms. And so that's where Voul for Girls

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Speaker 2: was born. And of course it's not just only people

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Speaker 2: are getting married who can contribute. I mean basically anybody

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Speaker 2: can contribute to Voul for Girls. And the beauty of

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Speaker 2: it always that one hundred percent of the money we

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Speaker 2: raise goes to the projects on the ground. And I've

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Speaker 2: seen with my own eyes how very small amounts of

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Speaker 2: money can make a huge difference for girls.

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Speaker 3: And I'm curious, you know some of those organizations that

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Speaker 3: are boots on the ground in these various locations, like

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Speaker 3: what are what are some of the things that they're doing?

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Speaker 3: Are they promoting education? Like what are some of the programs?

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Speaker 2: Promoting education is definitely one. Sometimes you know, girls don't

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Speaker 2: go to school because they don't have mentoral hygiene, you know, pats, etc.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes it's an intervention that that helps to keep

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Speaker 2: girls in school, or it is, you know, making sure

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Speaker 2: that the bus fee can be paid so that you know,

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Speaker 2: she doesn't have to walk alone along dangerous roads. A

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Speaker 2: lot of the projects what we see is basically helping girls,

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Speaker 2: bring them together in girls clubs where they learn about

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Speaker 2: their rights. I mean, I've met so many girls who

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Speaker 2: did not realize that they're equal to boys, that they

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Speaker 2: have rights, that they should have choice in life, and

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Speaker 2: that's incredibly empowering for girls. So, you know, I met,

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Speaker 2: for example, these group of girls and they had found

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Speaker 2: out that one of them was going to be married off,

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Speaker 2: and so they then collectively went to the father of

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Speaker 2: the girl who was going to be married off, and

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Speaker 2: they told him about their rights and about that it

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Speaker 2: was wiser to keep the girl in school, and they

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Speaker 2: managed to convince the father that indeed they should keep

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Speaker 2: the girl out of marriage for another couple of years.

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Speaker 2: I've also seen places where they do education around sexuality,

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Speaker 2: helping I mean, I've done too many girls in the

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Speaker 2: world who are told that they should not get pregnant,

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Speaker 2: but who do not know how you get pregnant. And

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you don't know how to avoid pregnancy,

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Speaker 2: of course, then you might end up with with an

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Speaker 2: early pregnancy and then and to being very married off.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's working with the fathers, helping them to understand

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Speaker 2: that what might seem the right thing to do is

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Speaker 2: actually not a wise thing to do marrying their daughters off.

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Speaker 2: And then what you see is this spreads like you know, like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how you say this in English. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: It's like spreads like wildfire, basically wildfire.

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Speaker 2: There you go. And so what you see is that

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Speaker 2: you then get entire communities who first where everybody is like,

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Speaker 2: of course, in our community, girls are married by the

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Speaker 2: age of sixteen. They're now like, no, no, no, we

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Speaker 2: do not marry our girls anymore before they're they're sixteen

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Speaker 2: or before they are eighteen. And so they take so

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Speaker 2: much pride in that that's amazing, and that in the

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Speaker 2: end benefits the boys in the men as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember a few years ago reading in that

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Speaker 3: book Half the Sky. It was so amazing to me

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Speaker 3: to read that when you invest in women, whether that's

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Speaker 3: education or you know, small loans for businesses or that

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Speaker 3: sort of thing, it benefits the entire community in such

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Speaker 3: a more drastic way than if you invest, just like

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Speaker 3: generally in the community. Because women are reinvesting in their community,

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Speaker 3: they're raising people who are more educated because they have

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Speaker 3: an education, and it like the cycle really continues when

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Speaker 3: you educate and help women and support women.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think you covered a couple of these questions,

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Speaker 1: but I was wondering if you could share with us

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Speaker 1: some of your like some of the wins that your

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Speaker 1: organization has had. Have you been able to change laws anywhere?

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Speaker 2: So we have seen in the last fifteen years. I

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Speaker 2: think the biggest win is that the issue of child

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Speaker 2: marriage is now widely recognized as a problem. And I

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Speaker 2: think you know, because if you have a problem, but

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Speaker 2: you don't recognize it as a problem, you can't start

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Speaker 2: solving in So I think that, in a way is

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Speaker 2: the biggest win. Then what we have seen is that

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Speaker 2: there are more countries that have now laws that make

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Speaker 2: it very clear eighteen is the minimum age of marriage.

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Speaker 2: We also see more countries that have policies now to say, okay,

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Speaker 2: this is what we're actually going to do in order

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Speaker 2: to keep girls out of marriage, and so worldwide we

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Speaker 2: have seen the decrease worldwide. Before one out of every

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Speaker 2: four girls would get married before eighteen. That has now

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Speaker 2: gone down to one out of five girls, So that

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Speaker 2: is real progress. And if you look at the United States,

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Speaker 2: what is very interesting and I when we started working

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Speaker 2: on this, I hadn't realized that child marriage was also

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Speaker 2: an issue in Europe and in the United States. But

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Speaker 2: you see how sometimes our preconceptions can be completely wrong.

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Speaker 2: What is very interesting that the total number of child

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Speaker 2: prides in the United States is not as big as

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Speaker 2: for example, in India, whereas every year about three million

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Speaker 2: girls get married. I mean in the United States it's

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Speaker 2: much less. It's I believe around twenty five thousand. But

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Speaker 2: what was strange in the United States, until about five

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Speaker 2: or six years ago, in every state you could get

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Speaker 2: married before the age of eighteen, either because there's no

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Speaker 2: minimum law at all, so girls as young as two

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Speaker 2: could get married. Also boys, but it's often the girls

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Speaker 2: that had and stoop or they would have a minimum age,

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Speaker 2: but it wouldn't be eighteen. Let's say fourteen or fifteen,

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Speaker 2: or they would have eighteen as minimum age, but they

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Speaker 2: would say there can be exceptions. If the parents agree

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Speaker 2: or if the judge degrees, then it's okay. And I

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Speaker 2: of course don't get this because we do not trust.

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Speaker 2: In America, young people are not allowed to vote until

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Speaker 2: they're eighteen because apparently we think they're not wise enough

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Speaker 2: to do that. American people, young people are not allowed

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Speaker 2: to drink until they're I think it's eighteen. You know,

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Speaker 2: you're not allowed to twenty one. Yeah, yeah, And so

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Speaker 2: all these things you're considered too young to do them

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Speaker 2: until you're eighteen or even older. But for child marriage

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Speaker 2: it would be okay, that's yeah, doesn't make sense, that's crazy.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for all of the work that you're doing.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's incredible. I mean, to take all of

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Speaker 1: this on, it's so necessary. So how can people can

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Speaker 1: people donate to vow for girls?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? I mean, look, my experience with all the change

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Speaker 2: making work that I've done my life is that we

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Speaker 2: can all make a difference, but nobody can do it alone.

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Speaker 2: So on this issue, part of what we need is funding.

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Speaker 2: And especially in a time where you know, governments are decreasing,

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Speaker 2: including in the United States. You know, USAID has ceased

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Speaker 2: to exist, So when money is actually is going down

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Speaker 2: for these things, I think we as ordinary humans need

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Speaker 2: to step up and help to make sure that that

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Speaker 2: financing continues to go to these to these young girls.

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Speaker 2: So yes, please give to Vow for Girls, and we

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Speaker 2: make sure that that money really rives with good local

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Speaker 2: organizations that do the work. And the only thing is

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Speaker 2: if you believe that it's important that laws get changed.

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Speaker 2: In the United States, we have now an increasing number

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Speaker 2: of states where laws have been changed to make sure

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Speaker 2: that eighteen is the minimum age of marriage and no exceptions.

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Speaker 2: But that is only I believe in about ten states

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Speaker 2: so far, so I would highly recommend it. If you

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Speaker 2: want to help there, you can also write to your

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Speaker 2: governor or your congressman or woman and urge them to

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Speaker 2: change that. It's an organization in the United States called

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Speaker 2: Unchained at Last that actually does a lot of work

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Speaker 2: and on their website you can find out what is

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Speaker 2: happening in your own state, etc. Wonderful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll link in the description to Vow for Girls

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Speaker 3: and Unchained as well.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and thank you for being with us today

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Speaker 1: and educating us allah on this.

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Speaker 2: I'm really grateful that you guys are using this International

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Speaker 2: Day of the Girl to highlight this really important issue.

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Speaker 2: And I'm very grateful to everybody who will help to

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Speaker 2: make sure that girls can be girls and not price.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Thanks Maybel, Thanks Maybel, Bye bye bye.

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Speaker 1: I just announced all my tour dates they just want

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Speaker 1: on sale this week. It's called the High and Mighty Tour.

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Speaker 1: I will be starting in February of next year, so

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Speaker 1: I will be touring from February through June. I haven't

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Speaker 1: added second shows yet, but we probably will be to

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Speaker 1: some of these. So go get your tickets now if

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Speaker 1: you want good seats and you want to come see

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Speaker 1: me perform, I will be on the High and Mighty Tour.

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Speaker 3: Do you want advice from Chelsea? Right into Dear Chelsea

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Speaker 3: Podcast at gmail dot com. Find full video episodes of

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Speaker 3: Dear Chelsea on YouTube by searching at Dear Chelsea Pod.

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Speaker 3: Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert executive

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Speaker 3: producer Catherine law And be sure to check out our

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Speaker 3: merch at Chelseahandler dot com