1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Boo, Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Wanha and this is the Big Take Asia 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 2: from Bloomberg News Today. In the show, a conversation with 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 2: Waijuan Shan, a Chinese economist, businessman, and author based in 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 2: Hong Kong. Michelle Hussain, and editor at large for Bloomberg Weekend, 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 2: sat down with Sean in Bloomberg's Hong Kong office in June. 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: Shawn's life has been one of extraordinary contrasts, from doing 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 2: hard labor in the Gobi Desert to being taught by 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Janet Yellen and becoming one of Hong Kong's most prominent 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: investors Today. Sean runs PAG, one of the largest private 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: equity firms in Asia, with more than fifty five billion 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 2: dollars in assets under management. In this interview, Sean talks 13 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 2: about everything from his childhood during the Cultural Revolution to 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 2: Trump's trade battle with China. Here's Michelle's edited conversation with 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: Wai John Shan, co founder and executive chairman of pg. 16 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Wai Jianshan, I'm really pleased to be doing this 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: because I think yours is a very important story and perspective. 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 3: Thank you so very much, I mean disappoint you. 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: No, I don't think that's possible. You know both China 20 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: and America intimately. Indeed, you called your memoir a story 21 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: of China and America. With months of tariff threats and uncertainty, 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: How would you characterize this period in US China relations. 23 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 3: I think this is probably about the worst relationship that 24 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 3: I have seen since nineteen seventy two one Richard Nixon 25 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 3: visited Beiji. The two countries are engaged in the economic war, 26 00:01:54,800 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 3: including tread war, including technology war, which is much more 27 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 3: intensified than twenty eighteen when the first trade war started. 28 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: Do you feel that personally as well as as an 29 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: investor and a financier. I asked that because you were 30 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: personally part of the moment of openness between China and 31 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: the US. You were one of the first Chinese students 32 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: to go and study in the US. You were perfectly 33 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 1: placed to take advantage of the free market coming to 34 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: China and to be a bridge in many ways between 35 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: China and America. 36 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: Yes, I was, and I felt lucky to be part 37 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 3: of it. When China first opened up after the establishment 38 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: of diplomatic relationship between China and the United States, in 39 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy nine. I went to America in ninety eighty, 40 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 3: and I was very much a beneficiary of this relationship. 41 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: But I think we're at the point where America would 42 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 3: try to do everything possible to contain China. The relationship 43 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: was very good when China was far behind the United 44 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 3: States in economic size, and at that time it was 45 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 3: a honeymoon period because America didn't feel threatened by China 46 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: anyway at all, and America in fact helped China develop. 47 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: But it became quite obvious by the first mister Trump's 48 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: term that China was gradually catching up with the United 49 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 3: States in economic size. And America is very much used 50 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 3: to being number one economic power in the world in 51 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 3: the past one hundred and fifty years, and that growth 52 00:03:55,160 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 3: by China itself is perceived as a threat to the 53 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 3: supremacy of the United States. 54 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: So can America successfully keep China from catching up or 55 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: overtaking it? Because I know you've said in the past 56 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: that you don't think that America can really hurt China 57 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: too much more than around the edges the periphery. 58 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 3: Yes, I did say so, and in fact, in twenty 59 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 3: nineteen I published an article in Foreign Affairs. The title 60 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: of the article was the Unwinnable Trade War. I said 61 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 3: that the only country that can contain China is China 62 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 3: itself by making policy blunders, and I don't think that 63 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 3: any other country, including the United States, will be able 64 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 3: to do so. A trade war is not good for anyone, 65 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 3: and certainly not for China. But I think China is 66 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: in need of shifting its growth model away from dependence 67 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 3: on esports in the direction of private consumption. Private consumption 68 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 3: accounts for less than forty percent of China's GDP compared 69 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 3: to sixty eight percent for the United States, and China 70 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 3: has depended on esports for economic growth for too long. 71 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: Let's talk about your own life and the extraordinary story 72 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: that you tell in your book Out of the Go 73 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: be my story of China and America. It's about the 74 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: first forty years of your life, essentially a searing tale 75 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: of growing up during the Cultural Revolution. What kind of 76 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: home were you born into in Beijing in nineteen fifty four. 77 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 3: Oh, my parents or clerks in the Chinese bureaucracy. My 78 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 3: father was customers officer and my mother was a secretary. 79 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: Would you call it middle class? 80 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 3: There was no such a concept as middle class in 81 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 3: China at the time, and China was an egalitarian society 82 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 3: when I was a child, which meant that everybody was 83 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 3: equally poor. 84 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: I was struck by reading that. Even as a small child, 85 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: you became aware that there was not enough food to 86 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: eat at home. Your mother was always the last to eat, 87 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: and you could see the difference in her face and 88 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: her body right. 89 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 3: She was seriously male nourished. She would be the last 90 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 3: one to eat at dinner table, just eating whatever left 91 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 3: over because there was a full shortage all across country. 92 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 3: It was the so called greatly Forward of nineteen fifty eight. 93 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 3: It was a disastrous policy failure. During that period time 94 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 3: many people start to death. Estimates vary from twenty million 95 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 3: to thirty six minute. Even in Beijing, the capital of 96 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: the city, people didn't have enough to eat, including my family. 97 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: You describe also this collective effort that you see around you, 98 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: and that involves your family as well, where everyone is 99 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: collecting scrap metal, the little pieces of their stoves and 100 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: anything they can find and throwing them into I mean, 101 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: not what you could describe as a bad yeah, I 102 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: mean makeshift, totally makeshift to be part of an effort 103 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: to make steel, a national effort to make steel. 104 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a drive to increase steel production all 105 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 3: across the country, so the entire population was mobilized to 106 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: do so. And I was just about four or five 107 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 3: years old, and I remembered many things related to that campaign, 108 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 3: including basically knocking steel accessories on your stove and on 109 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: your door and everything, and threw them into backyard furnaces 110 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: to make steel. In the end, of course, you make 111 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 3: wastes because none of the still made by backyard furnaces 112 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 3: was useful. But it was a national fever to catch 113 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 3: up with more advanced countries in still production. 114 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: And were your parents fully signed up to that? Were 115 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: they true believers in Chairman Mao? 116 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 3: At that point I have no way of knowing because 117 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 3: I was too small, but everybody was involved. 118 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, But later on I think you realize that they 119 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: were not fully signed up to all of this, that 120 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: they were unhappy about some of what they saw, including 121 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: you being sent away into the countryside. Later didn't your 122 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: father say to you at one point that he had 123 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: lost his education during the when he joined the communists, 124 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: but he didn't think his children would lose their education, correct? 125 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 3: And this is the only time I detested some happiness 126 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 3: in what he tells me. And he said that we 127 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 3: joined the revolution for the purpose of getting a better 128 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 3: knife for our children. We didn't realize he said that 129 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 3: our children would not have an education either, And that 130 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 3: was when I was just about to be sent to 131 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 3: the Govie Desert at the age of fifteen to do 132 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 3: hard labor. 133 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: But your education had stopped, hadn't it at the age 134 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: of twelve. 135 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: Yes. It was very chaotic period of time in the 136 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 3: Chinese history, And honestly, this is the reason why I 137 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: wrote my memoir, because I think that period of history, 138 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 3: horrific as it was, should be remembered less we forget 139 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 3: and repeat that history. And my school ended when I 140 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 3: was twelve, just about to graduate from elementary school, and 141 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 3: then the entire country the school system was shut down. Initially, 142 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 3: we were very happy because we thought, well, this was 143 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 3: going to be a vacation. But I didn't know this vacation, 144 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 3: so called vacation, lasted as long as ten years, so 145 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 3: I and my peers were deprived of a formal education 146 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 3: during that period of time. The Cultural Revolution, the so 147 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 3: called cultural revolution, he was really culturally going backwards. I 148 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 3: was able to pick up education after ten years. For 149 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 3: most my peers it was forever, because if you lose 150 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 3: your schooling for ten years, it's exceedingly difficult to pick 151 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 3: up if you have not kept up studying by yourselves. 152 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: We'll have more from Michelle's interview with Wayjan Shan after 153 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: the break. 154 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: Take us back to being a young teenager still in 155 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: Beijing as the Cultural Revolution is truly setting in. You 156 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: seem to have been caught up in the fervor of 157 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: it with your friends. You do record that there's this 158 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: moment that does make you feel sick to the stomach 159 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: when you see an elderly woman, the vice principal of 160 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: a school, being beaten to death. 161 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 3: That was the most horrific scene I had ever seen 162 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: in my life by that stage, to see somebody so 163 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 3: brutally beaten by a group of teenage girls, it was 164 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: hard to watch. As I recorded in the book, we 165 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 3: saw it and then we quickly left because we couldn't 166 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: bear it. And there was so much milence during the 167 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 3: early days of the Cortron Revolution. It was just horrible. 168 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 3: Many people died in that month of August in nineteen 169 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 3: sixty six as students rebuilt against their teachers or anybody 170 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: of authority, and many students resorting to miners against their teachers. 171 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: And when you went away, when you were sent to 172 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: Inner Mongolia in nineteen sixty nine, this was I think 173 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: about sixteen million other Chinese teenagers. 174 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: About ten percent of China's urban population. 175 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: Was sent from the cities to the countryside's. 176 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 3: Most massive deurbanization. Uh, you know, in human history, I think. 177 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: But despite having seen the violence, you write in the 178 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: book that at the moment you're being sent off, you 179 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: are full of life, energy, ambitious and hope. Did you 180 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: see it as a new adventure. 181 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 3: I was a teenager and to leave my parents and 182 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 3: to do something all on my own, it was exciting initially. 183 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: And what was the reality in the Gobi desert? 184 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: It was very harsh. We had to do very hard labor. 185 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 3: The living conditions were horrorful. The weather was already very cold, 186 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: and there was never enough to eat. So very quickly 187 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 3: we became disillusioned. But we couldn't get out of that place. 188 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 3: There was no freedom to leave, so I ended up 189 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 3: spending many years in the Gobi desert. 190 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: What was the what was the conversation amongst you and 191 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: the other boys you were with. Did people talk about rebelling? 192 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 3: We were not so conscious of thinking about that. We 193 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 3: were having banquets every day by talking about good food. 194 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 3: We would talk about what kind of good food that 195 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 3: you could get if you go back to a restaurant 196 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 3: in Beijing, even though restaurants were very basic and there 197 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 3: were very few in Beijing at the time, but we 198 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: were so far away from our homes in Beijing, so 199 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 3: that's all we could talk about every day. At the time, 200 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 3: I had very strong desire that somebody would invent a 201 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 3: drug so that you take it you would not feel 202 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 3: hungry anymore. I had no idea many years later that 203 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 3: people actually developed such a drug. One food became too plenty. 204 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: How did you manage to read and what did you read? 205 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: Given that part of the Cultural Revolution was against learning. 206 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 3: And there was very little time to read after days 207 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 3: of hard work. But I was very curious, and I 208 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 3: also thought that someday some knowledge would be useful. But 209 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 3: mind you, there were no books, so I just read 210 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 3: whatever books I could laim my hands on, and therefore 211 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 3: my education self study was totally chaotic and random and 212 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 3: no system at all. At one time, I didn't have 213 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: any books to read. The only thing available was the 214 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: Insecticide Manual, so I read it for probably two weeks, 215 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 3: and I became very familiar with insecticide, and even to 216 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 3: this day, I wouldn't have some knowledge about how to 217 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 3: use insecticide after the break. 218 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: Sean talks about his life after he left the desert. 219 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: You finally came back to Beijing in nineteen seventy five. 220 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: What did you find on your return of the state 221 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: of your family, the city. 222 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 3: Well, the city was the same, but my family was 223 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 3: largely dispersed when I went to the Gobi Desert in 224 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 3: the Mongolia. My sister was sent to another remote part 225 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 3: of China. My mother was sent to it another remote 226 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: part of China. My father and my younger brother stayed 227 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 3: in the city. So in nineteen seventy five, when I 228 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 3: went back to Beijing, we finally became reunited after six 229 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 3: long years. 230 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: And the reason you managed to get out of the 231 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: Gobi Desert was because you had passed a test that 232 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: enabled you to be one of the lucky few to 233 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: go to college. 234 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: It was a strange system that candidates to go to 235 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: college were elected, were voted to take that opportunity. Find 236 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 3: the people around you. So I was lucky enough that 237 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: my friends and the peers around me gave me modes, 238 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 3: so I was able to eventually get out. 239 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 1: And then Chairman Wau died in nineteen seventy six, which 240 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: was a key moment not only for China but also 241 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: in your own life. Do you think that a younger 242 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: generation in China today are fully aware of the extent 243 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: of the cruelties of that time. 244 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 3: For those who really want to learn about that period 245 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 3: of time, they should be able to get a very 246 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: good picture of what happened. But as you say, it's 247 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 3: not taught in the school, so it's not in the 248 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 3: general awareness of the younger generation. I will give you 249 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 3: example of this. I was invited to be an independent 250 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 3: director of a bank in shan Zen, and such a 251 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: position had to be approved by regulators, so I had 252 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 3: to fill out some forms. After we submitted the documents 253 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 3: the forms, a question came, the question was why did 254 00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 3: you not fill out middle school? I asked mysel secretary 255 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 3: to respond to say, I have never been to middle 256 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 3: school or high school or secondary education. And then the 257 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 3: second question came, the question was why not? And I 258 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 3: thought this person must have known nothing about the Cultural Revolution, 259 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 3: so I answered by email for this question, you will 260 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 3: have to ask the great leader Chairman Mouth. 261 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: Does this lack of teaching about basic facts to do 262 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: with the impact of the Cultural Revolution disappoint you because 263 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: the Communist Party has officially repudiated Yes, the Cultural Revolution. 264 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 3: I don't think that it's so necessary for the entire 265 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: population to fail in the past, but of course this 266 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 3: should not be removed from our consciousness, and that's the 267 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 3: reason I wrote the book. It turns out most of 268 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 3: my readers are young people. Many young people come to 269 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 3: me and to say, my parents went through the same thing, 270 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 3: but they never tell us much. They have very strong 271 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 3: curiosity to learn what their parents' experience, which I think 272 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 3: is very good. 273 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: When you came to the US, where you were then 274 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: taught by Janet Yellen in California, what made the biggest 275 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: impression on you? 276 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 3: I was honestly quite dazzled by America when I first arrived. 277 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 3: It was so developed in a way I read about 278 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 3: but never saw with my own eyes. It was extremely impressive. 279 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 3: The infrastructure was first rate, especially the highway system. Everything 280 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 3: was very impressive. And I used to Berkeley, where I 281 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 3: studied for my PhD. What impressed me was how liberal 282 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 3: it was. You under's nickname for Berkeley, the People's Republic 283 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 3: of Berkeley, and indeed it was true to that nickname. 284 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: I think there were times when in America the Gobi 285 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: Desert experiences came back to you. Wasn't there a moment 286 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: when you heard people using the expression bolt and you 287 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: remembered what that actually meant to you? 288 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 3: Correct? When I was in the Gobi in winterheim, there 289 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 3: was no fuel and there was no heating, and the 290 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 3: only source of fuel was dried common yourrors. So we 291 00:21:54,680 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 3: would spend hours in the Gobi trying to collect tried commoneurs, 292 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 3: and then we burned the combineurs right before bedtime to 293 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 3: give us enough heat to remove our clothes before getting 294 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 3: into or killed for the night. So when I heard 295 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 3: this version Booth, I thought that thing used to be 296 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 3: so dear for us. 297 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: You did go back to the Gobe Desert, you saw 298 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: those places again in two thousand and five. Yes, what 299 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: was left that you remembered? 300 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 3: Most of the shelters we built, the barriers were built 301 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 3: for ourselves or washed away by weather and rain. Because 302 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 3: it was all clay, mud and straw. Very few people 303 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 3: of my generation were still there. When I was near, 304 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: our farm had about three hundred people, and now only 305 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 3: a couple were there. Their life was better because this 306 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 3: couple we're raising some pigs and sell the piglets to 307 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 3: other farmers. A great improvement from my Goby days, but 308 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 3: it was still very poor. 309 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: And the difference between your life and theirs, how do 310 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: you reconcile yourself to that. Your life is almost on 311 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: a completely different it's a panet now with all your 312 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: successes in business. 313 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, you find common rules. My best friends are friends 314 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 3: from the Gobi Desert. We suffer together, we survived together. 315 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: We took care of each other. And most my friends 316 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: live in the bottom of the society in China today 317 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 3: because without education you wouldn't be able to make much 318 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 3: art of your life, even after the Orful Revolution, but 319 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 3: we're still the best friends. In fact, there are some 320 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 3: photographs I included in the book taken by a friend 321 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 3: of mine from the Gobi Desert, and some of the 322 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 3: photos are accepted by m Plus Museum to be displayed 323 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 3: starting July the twenty eighth. I sent the invitation to 324 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 3: my Gobi friends, all of them. I'm very excited about it. 325 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: Speaking of Hong Kong, this is the city that you've 326 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: made your home. What would you say has been the 327 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: impact of the National Security Law brought in five years ago. 328 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 3: I think that it is restored a calm in the city. 329 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 3: In twenty nineteen, the city was as chaotic as what 330 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 3: I saw during the thirty days of the Colorful Revolution. 331 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 3: There was violence, there was chaos, Traffic was stopped, and 332 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 3: my wife and I were somewhat fearful of going out 333 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 3: onto the streets speaking Mandaring because some Mandarin speakers were 334 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 3: beaten up on the streets for speaking the put On 335 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 3: Mendoring dialect. And there was a very strong, antime maintained 336 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 3: tone among the protesters at that time, and we actually 337 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 3: considered moving somewhere else because we didn't feel that Hong 338 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 3: Kong was very safe. And I compared Hong Kong's National 339 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 3: Security Law with that of the UK. I don't see 340 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 3: it to be any more dracooning than the UK's law, 341 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 3: and most people who would not be affected by. 342 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: It, but someone like Jimmy Lai, who has called you 343 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: a friend, someone you knew over many years in business 344 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: in this city. You're almost the same age. It's had 345 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: a terrible impact on him. He's under trial under this 346 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: law and he could face very serious consequences, even a 347 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: life sentence. Is that fair? 348 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 2: You know? 349 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 3: In the trial, one thing was brought up, and that 350 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 3: is in twenty nineteen, I wrote an article which has 351 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 3: sent to Jimmy for publication in his newspaper. The title 352 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 3: of the article was democracy hijacked in Hong Kong, because 353 00:26:54,840 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen, China proposed universal suffrage for Hong Kong pandems, 354 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 3: and of course Jimmy was a leader or part of 355 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 3: that camp was beminly op posed and eventually beatoled this measure. 356 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 3: And I spoke with some of them and I said 357 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 3: nothing is perfect and you need to let the door open. 358 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 3: In any case, I sent this article and he wouldn't 359 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 3: take it. He told me that he didn't agree with me. 360 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 3: And then I sent it to the Ft, which published it. 361 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 3: And then the chief editor of the newspaper, Apple Daily 362 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 3: called me and said, Shan, we're very surprised that the 363 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 3: Ft took your article. And I said, welcome to democracy. 364 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 3: In a democracy, I may disagree with you, but I 365 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 3: would defend your right to speak, and I think that's 366 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 3: very important. That's the true democracy. 367 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: But Jimmy La hasn't had his right to speak or 368 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: doesn't have a right to speak anymore because of this law. 369 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 3: And I think that for legal matters, it's not for 370 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 3: you and I to oppin what is the right thing. 371 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 3: I truly think that the rule of law in Hong 372 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 3: Kong is very much alive, and that's very important for 373 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 3: Hong Kong because that's the essence of the so called 374 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 3: one country, two systems. 375 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: Finally, I wonder what aspects of your go be desert 376 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: years are still with you today. Does the experience come 377 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: back to you in your sleep? Is it there in 378 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: your habits, in how you see the world? 379 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 3: In some ways, yes, you know, for many years, even 380 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 3: decades after I came back from the Govie, I very 381 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 3: often would have a dream that letting me out of 382 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 3: the go Bee was just a mistake, a bureaucratic error, 383 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 3: and I had to go back, and I would wake 384 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 3: up frightened, very fearful. So once you had the experience 385 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 3: like that, it would be with you for your entire life. 386 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 3: Nothing is harder, nothing is tougher than those years, and 387 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 3: therefore everything else. I do you any hardship, any difficulties 388 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 3: that I encounter doesn't seem too so hard, Doctor w. 389 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: Johnshan, Thank you, thank you. 390 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 3: It's pleasure. This is the Big Take. 391 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: Asia from Bloomberg News. I'm wanh. This conversation was part 392 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 2: of the Bloomberg Weekend Interview, where hose Michelle Hussain speaks 393 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: to influential voices in politics, business and culture from around 394 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: the globe. You can find an annotated transcript of this 395 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: interview with way Johan Shan, as well as an archive 396 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 2: of past conversations with leaders like Elon Musk and UK 397 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Keir Starmer at Bloomberg dot com, slash Weekend 398 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 2: or in the Bloomberg Gap. Our special thanks to Jessica 399 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: Beck and Ed Johnson. Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend.