1
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:19,440
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greese.

2
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:25,279
Speaker 2: All as cheerleader, Mom's best friend. Mom just moves to

3
00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:30,640
Speaker 2: another state for a new job, supporting her sixteen year

4
00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:35,680
Speaker 2: old daughter all on her own. She gets so much

5
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,680
Speaker 2: like my mom and dad did and is gone from

6
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 2: the house at six a m. For this new job

7
00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,760
Speaker 2: and renewable energy. I think it was. She wakes her

8
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,920
Speaker 2: teen girl up, Lizabeth before she goes to work to

9
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:52,800
Speaker 2: make sure she's up and about because she's got a

10
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,520
Speaker 2: really big day. She's cheerleader and she's going to cheer

11
00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,040
Speaker 2: or be in a group of cheerleaders, a dance or

12
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,840
Speaker 2: a cheer and a big Christmas parade. So it's a

13
00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,479
Speaker 2: big day. So Mom wakes Lizabeth up and heads to work,

14
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:16,720
Speaker 2: works all day long, flies to the Christmas parade to

15
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,800
Speaker 2: see her daughter. She sees cheerleaders go by, and she

16
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,400
Speaker 2: doesn't see Lizabeth. Finds out no one else has heard

17
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:30,200
Speaker 2: from Lizabeth since that morning. At seven point thirty am

18
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:39,920
Speaker 2: flies home. Her daughter, the a student, the cheerleader, already

19
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,600
Speaker 2: got it all mapped out to go to nursing school,

20
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:53,040
Speaker 2: is in her pjs in the bathtub dead. I really

21
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,040
Speaker 2: don't even know how to go past that, because all

22
00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,280
Speaker 2: I can think about are my two sixteen year old twins.

23
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,960
Speaker 2: But for Elizabeth's sake and for her mother's sake, We're

24
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,200
Speaker 2: going to move forward. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

25
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

26
00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,840
Speaker 2: and on Serious XEM one eleven. How did this whole

27
00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 2: thing occur? Listen to our friend John Linley.

28
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,920
Speaker 3: As Jacqueline Medina leaves for work at six am, she

29
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,840
Speaker 3: wakes her daughter. She has plans too. The cheerleading squad

30
00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 3: is meeting at Edna High School for practice ahead of

31
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,680
Speaker 3: the Christmas parade planned for the afternoon. Jacqueline Medina arrives

32
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,120
Speaker 3: at the parade, excited to see her daughter perform, but

33
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,240
Speaker 3: Elizabeth is not. With the rest of the cheerleaders in

34
00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 3: the parade, friends confirmed they hadn't seen Elizabeth in the

35
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:49,560
Speaker 3: parade either.

36
00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,360
Speaker 2: Let's just stop right there with man all star panel

37
00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,640
Speaker 2: including Elaine Ardiaz, joining us out of this jurisdiction in

38
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,680
Speaker 2: Texas Senior Crime Report at the Messenger. But first I

39
00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 2: want to go to renowned as psychologist, TV radio trauma

40
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,400
Speaker 2: expert Karen Start. She's at Karenstark dot com. That's Karen

41
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 2: with the c Karen That's just making my chest hurt

42
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,120
Speaker 2: because I'm imagining that moment that you're looking out and

43
00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,440
Speaker 2: you see the parade and then you see the cheerleaders

44
00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,079
Speaker 2: and you look and your daughter's not with the cheerleaders.

45
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,560
Speaker 2: That's all she's been talking about for a week, is

46
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,400
Speaker 2: being in this Christmas parade and she's not there.

47
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 4: It's such an awful story, ante because this mother is

48
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,720
Speaker 4: so close to her daughter. She was very young when

49
00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:47,360
Speaker 4: she had her, and she's just waiting for her daughter

50
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,880
Speaker 4: to come along. Everything is about her child, So we

51
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 4: know that kind of attachment and what it means when

52
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 4: all of a sudden you think, Wow, what happened to her?

53
00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,640
Speaker 2: And the end, you know, asking everybody in the stands,

54
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,640
Speaker 2: whoa do you see? Have you seen Liz? Have you

55
00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,360
Speaker 2: seen Lizabeth? And none of the moms has seen her,

56
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 2: and then she goes down to the cheerleaders. They haven't

57
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:13,360
Speaker 2: seen her. You know. It's reminded me when I got

58
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 2: a call in New York that my dad had to

59
00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,839
Speaker 2: go in the hospital and I moved Heaven and Earth

60
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 2: was out in the street at midnight with the children

61
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,479
Speaker 2: trying to get a cab to get to an airport

62
00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 2: that frantic searching that trying to get to the person

63
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,279
Speaker 2: you love. Joining me Elaine Ardias out of San Antonio,

64
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,640
Speaker 2: Senior crime reporter at the Messenger, and you can find

65
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,760
Speaker 2: her at the Messenger dot com. Elaine, thank you for

66
00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,720
Speaker 2: being with us. Tell me about Edna. It's about just

67
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,080
Speaker 2: under six thousand people population and this high school and

68
00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,719
Speaker 2: this parade. What was happening that morning that morning.

69
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,560
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just a town like Edna.

70
00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,839
Speaker 6: That's the place where everyone is going to be at

71
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,880
Speaker 6: the parade. So that is all anyone is talking about,

72
00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,599
Speaker 6: from parents, family members, the kids at school, they're probably

73
00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,040
Speaker 6: getting out of school early.

74
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,920
Speaker 5: I mean, I am from Texas. I know these towns

75
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:17,320
Speaker 5: and it.

76
00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,400
Speaker 6: Is what they are preparing for. And so of course

77
00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,840
Speaker 6: even at school, everyone was at school. They're probably wearing

78
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:25,720
Speaker 6: their cheerleader outfits, you know.

79
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,400
Speaker 5: Foot because the big football game.

80
00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,560
Speaker 6: Was going to be happening that week Edna High School.

81
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,080
Speaker 6: We're entering the semi finals and if you know Texas,

82
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 6: you know we love football. So this is like that

83
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,360
Speaker 6: is just what the entire town was talking about and

84
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 6: getting ready for.

85
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 2: I'm trying to imagine the same the big Christmas parade

86
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,159
Speaker 2: Lizbeth being in the mom being so proud. I mean,

87
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,799
Speaker 2: Chris mcdona is joining me direct from the Cold Case Foundation,

88
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 2: former homicide detective, and you can find him at Colecasefoundation

89
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,120
Speaker 2: dot com. Or I didn't find him there. I found

90
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,599
Speaker 2: him during the Coburger trial because I hadn't gotten to

91
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,279
Speaker 2: the scene yet, and I found him online in a

92
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,479
Speaker 2: car driving I don't know, two miles an hour all

93
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,839
Speaker 2: around the crime scene, I would say three or four

94
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,840
Speaker 2: miles outside of it, driving and pointing things out. I

95
00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 2: felt like I was in the car and it really

96
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,160
Speaker 2: gave me an incredible framework of what was happening and

97
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 2: to layout geographically until I could get out there myself.

98
00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,720
Speaker 2: That's how I found Chris mcdonna. You know, Chris mcdonna,

99
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:43,839
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about you have children, thinking about how

100
00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,279
Speaker 2: I don't know how to make this sound right. Not

101
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:49,960
Speaker 2: in a bad way, but you kind of lived through

102
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,839
Speaker 2: your children. But what I mean, not in a weird

103
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:58,240
Speaker 2: way like a stage mom. But their triumphs are your triumphs.

104
00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,039
Speaker 2: When they do well, man, when the twins do well,

105
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,760
Speaker 2: I'm on top of the world. When Lucy gets a

106
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,640
Speaker 2: good grade, or John David made the jav basketball team.

107
00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:08,719
Speaker 2: I want to just do a flip in the front yard.

108
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,960
Speaker 2: And when they're hurting, I'm just devastated. And I'm just

109
00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,920
Speaker 2: imagining this mom. She's so happy Lizabeth is making these

110
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,280
Speaker 2: great grades. She's already planned her college. I think it's

111
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,960
Speaker 2: Arlington University. Isn't that the one she wanted to go to, Elaine, Yes,

112
00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 2: that's the one to study nursing. I mean it just

113
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,680
Speaker 2: the mom is a single mom, and she's devoted her

114
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:39,760
Speaker 2: life to rearing, to bringing up Lizabeth, and just don't

115
00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 2: you know how happy she was sitting up in those

116
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 2: stands saying her daughter help lead the Christmas parade for Pete's.

117
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 7: Sake, and Nancy, I mean dreams, pride, love, And then

118
00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:57,080
Speaker 7: it quickly turns into panic, every parent's worst nightmare. Where

119
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 7: is my daughter? Where is my daughter? And then I

120
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,600
Speaker 7: can only imagine, you know what she was experiencing, the

121
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,720
Speaker 7: poor family mom, specifically when she immediately got to her

122
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:15,600
Speaker 7: house that apartment, opened that door, and could could sense well, wait.

123
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,040
Speaker 2: A minute, there's another twist to this, Chris, I was

124
00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,320
Speaker 2: thinking about the timeline. Let me get this from Elaine

125
00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,280
Speaker 2: Ardias and joining me also is Nicole de Bord Potch

126
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:30,080
Speaker 2: Globe high profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction in Texas,

127
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,680
Speaker 2: former prosecutor. You can find her at Houston Criminal Defense

128
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:39,160
Speaker 2: dot com. And doctor Todd Barr Board certified anatomic clinical

129
00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,800
Speaker 2: forensic Pathologists featured in Thin Places Essays from in Between

130
00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,240
Speaker 2: Elaine Ardias. Now, after work, did the mom go home

131
00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,120
Speaker 2: to change clothes? She did?

132
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,040
Speaker 8: She was on all so.

133
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,600
Speaker 6: I mean, she was on a construction site and she

134
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,000
Speaker 6: worked in renewable energy.

135
00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 5: It's the Houston area.

136
00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 8: I'm sure half.

137
00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:08,480
Speaker 6: The town does. And you know she went home, but again,

138
00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,400
Speaker 6: she's thinking about the parade.

139
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,200
Speaker 5: She runs in, she changes.

140
00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:18,000
Speaker 6: Grabs, you know whatever, and runs out to get to

141
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,560
Speaker 6: the parade, and you know it was in and out.

142
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 6: She wasn't and why would she think that her daughter

143
00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:25,560
Speaker 6: was in there?

144
00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,840
Speaker 2: So bottom line, I've been nice to her. When she

145
00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 2: runs in after work to change clothes, her daughter is

146
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,520
Speaker 2: already dead in the bathtub with the shower curtain pulled,

147
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,439
Speaker 2: and she doesn't know it. No. I was thinking about

148
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 2: this timeline and I realized, when mom goes home to

149
00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,400
Speaker 2: change to look good in front of all of her

150
00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,319
Speaker 2: daughter's friends, her daughter is on the other side of

151
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:53,040
Speaker 2: the Wall.

152
00:09:53,679 --> 00:10:09,480
Speaker 1: Dead Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

153
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:14,800
Speaker 2: Doctor Todd Barr joining US renown pathologist Dodger Bar. How

154
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 2: can you tell how long someone has been dead?

155
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 9: So there's several waves of checking the time of death

156
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,240
Speaker 9: and what we use. We rely on rigor mortifs, which

157
00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,000
Speaker 9: is the siffening of the muscles that occurs after death

158
00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,840
Speaker 9: that usually sets in between six to eight hours. In

159
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:40,400
Speaker 9: the post mortem interval, becomes very firm for about twenty

160
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,560
Speaker 9: four to thirty six hours and then starts to go

161
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 9: away after that time, so it breaks down. So there's

162
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,280
Speaker 9: sort of like in the initial interim after death, the

163
00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,240
Speaker 9: body is still loose and placid, and then the muscles

164
00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,959
Speaker 9: start to tighten up after about six to eight hour

165
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,600
Speaker 9: and going to full rigor mortis for about twenty four

166
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,960
Speaker 9: hours and then it wanes. At the other end, the

167
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,840
Speaker 9: other thing is lividity, which is the pooling of the

168
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,120
Speaker 9: blood in the postmartum setting. Once someone passes, the blood

169
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 9: starts to leak out of the blood vessels and settles

170
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,199
Speaker 9: towards gravity. So if they're lying on their back, you'll

171
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,960
Speaker 9: get this sort of discoloration that occurs in the skin

172
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,160
Speaker 9: in the lower part of the body. That's closest to

173
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,680
Speaker 9: where gravity would be pulling in the case if they're

174
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,240
Speaker 9: on their back would be you know, on their back side,

175
00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:43,320
Speaker 9: except where there's pressure and lividity becomes sort of pink

176
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,440
Speaker 9: and purple, and if you can push on it and

177
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:51,400
Speaker 9: it blanches out. That's a relatively new time of death.

178
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,920
Speaker 9: I would say within the first six hours. After about

179
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,080
Speaker 9: six hours that liviidity fixes itself and if you were

180
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 9: to roll somebody over, that lividity would not move. If

181
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,480
Speaker 9: it was if somebody was moved in the early stages

182
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:12,400
Speaker 9: of death, that lividity would then shift to the new position.

183
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,480
Speaker 9: So if somebody had been dead for say six to

184
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,920
Speaker 9: eight hours in one position and then rolled, that lividity

185
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,280
Speaker 9: would not change. It would be fixed. So that's one

186
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,120
Speaker 9: of the things that when we go to crime scenes.

187
00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,240
Speaker 9: If you see somebody that's on their face like face down,

188
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,839
Speaker 9: but the lividity is on the back side of the.

189
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,080
Speaker 7: Body, we know that that body's been moved.

190
00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,280
Speaker 9: So those are are several of the ways that we

191
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,360
Speaker 9: can determine time of death and how long a body

192
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,720
Speaker 9: has been dead. Along with temperature, there's a called algamortis,

193
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,160
Speaker 9: which is the temperature of the body, depending on the

194
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 9: environment that they're in that temperature. Will the temperature of

195
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,480
Speaker 9: the body will decrease by a certain amount per hour

196
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,920
Speaker 9: depending on the temperature of the environments that they're in.

197
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:07,319
Speaker 2: Will the victim's body stabilize at the ambiance temperature?

198
00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:08,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, yes it will.

199
00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,480
Speaker 2: And back to rigor. You stated that I speaking with

200
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,840
Speaker 2: doctor Todd Barr. Everybody on the panel jumping if you've

201
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,760
Speaker 2: got a question for him. Doctor Barr, you stated that rigor,

202
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 2: the stiffening of the limbs starts to set in. Did

203
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:24,680
Speaker 2: you say after about six hours?

204
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's generally about six to eight hours. I mean,

205
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:34,800
Speaker 9: there are there are definitely environmental settings that change that.

206
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,000
Speaker 9: If someone's in a very cold environment, or someone's in

207
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,359
Speaker 9: a very warm environment, it can accelerate or de accelerate

208
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:47,680
Speaker 9: the the sifting of the muscles and the lividity. But

209
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,320
Speaker 9: if someone is in a a regular setting, you know,

210
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:56,040
Speaker 9: seventy to seventy five degree room, they're not in a

211
00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 9: you know, overly hot environment, the process goes, you know,

212
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,360
Speaker 9: pretty much in a standard format.

213
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,360
Speaker 2: I want to go back to rigor. It sets sin

214
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,040
Speaker 2: between six and eight hours. And then did you say

215
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,160
Speaker 2: the victim will remain in rigor or the body stiff

216
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 2: until about twenty four hours, and then the body loosens up.

217
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, so after about twenty four hours, the bodies start,

218
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:30,400
Speaker 9: you know, with the decomposition process. The bonds that hold

219
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,520
Speaker 9: that riger together start to break, and so the riger

220
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 9: loosens up.

221
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 2: What bond, what bond holds it together there.

222
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,760
Speaker 9: So it's kind of a complicated chemical process that the

223
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 9: muscles go through.

224
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,200
Speaker 2: Just dummy down for me, the chemical process the muscles

225
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 2: go through.

226
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, So what happens is there are bonds that the muscles,

227
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 9: the cells of the muscles make, and the energy that

228
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 9: it takes to create those bonds break down over time.

229
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,640
Speaker 9: It's just like anything else that just as time goes on,

230
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 9: things just start to break down. So riger occurs and

231
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,280
Speaker 9: is pretty well in its at the height within about

232
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,880
Speaker 9: eight to twenty four hours, and then after that, just

233
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,040
Speaker 9: the normal process, those bonds just start to wear off

234
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,440
Speaker 9: and break out, so the munks loosen up again.

235
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,160
Speaker 2: Now I realized I'm asking a lot of questions about

236
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 2: how a body behaves and how you can time a

237
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,360
Speaker 2: time of death, because it's very critical in this case,

238
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,600
Speaker 2: very critical. Indeed, I wanted to ask you about the

239
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:47,120
Speaker 2: algamortis translation the temperature of the body. You state that

240
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:52,880
Speaker 2: you can tell if the body is reached beyond temperature

241
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 2: in the room question. So often people see on TV

242
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:03,000
Speaker 2: and in movies that the victim's temperature is actually taken

243
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,600
Speaker 2: in the armpit or some other way or some other

244
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,600
Speaker 2: part of the body. Is that real? Does that really happen?

245
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,080
Speaker 9: In my experience, we did not rely heavily on the

246
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 9: algamortives the temperature A lot of times. What people will

247
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,240
Speaker 9: do in the old days, I didn't see this in

248
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,040
Speaker 9: my career, but they would make an incision and stick

249
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 9: the thermometer into the liver tissue so to get like

250
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,200
Speaker 9: a core temperature.

251
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,960
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm just absorbing what you just said. In

252
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,720
Speaker 2: the old days, they make an incision in the body

253
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:47,960
Speaker 2: and place a thermometer into the liver to determine what body.

254
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 9: Tip the core temperature. Yes, a lot of times in

255
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 9: the current the way we do it now, most people

256
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 9: either put it under the armpit or they'll take a

257
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,640
Speaker 9: rectal temperature. What they want to do is get as

258
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,720
Speaker 9: close to the core temperature, which is the internal temperature.

259
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,400
Speaker 9: So you know, you can't really do like an oral

260
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,880
Speaker 9: temperature from the mouth because it's too far away from

261
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 9: the core. Armpits are kind of too far away from

262
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:14,600
Speaker 9: the core rectal temperature.

263
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,760
Speaker 2: And why do you need the core timp of the body.

264
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 9: Because that will that will tell you where the actual

265
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 9: temperature of the body is. That you know, when you

266
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 9: go out and you are out in the snow thing

267
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 9: in the winter time, your fingers get really cold, so

268
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 9: you can't really rely on the temperature of the extremities.

269
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,960
Speaker 9: You need the temperature of the internal temperature of the core.

270
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,720
Speaker 2: Okay, I know you probably don't realize this, doctor Todd Barr,

271
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,320
Speaker 2: because this is your everyday vernacular, but we think you're

272
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,479
Speaker 2: pretty brilliant. That was an incredible explanation. The reason this

273
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,359
Speaker 2: is so important is I need to figure out time

274
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 2: of death. Now there are other things. Let me go

275
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 2: to Nicole to board hotch Globe veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor.

276
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,440
Speaker 2: Of course, we're gonna look at extrinsic evidence to determine

277
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 2: time of death. Did she make a phone call and

278
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,040
Speaker 2: speak to somebody at seven point fifteen and then they

279
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,479
Speaker 2: call back at seven thirty and she didn't answer the phone.

280
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,160
Speaker 2: My point is I'm clearing the mother That's where I'm

281
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,679
Speaker 2: going with this. Did the mother have anything to do

282
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,320
Speaker 2: with this? Absolutely not at all. But I don't want

283
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 2: some a whole defendant trying to push to blame on mom.

284
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,200
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, if I thought even a tiny bit

285
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 2: the mother had anything to do with this, I'd be

286
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,239
Speaker 2: on her like a cheap suit. But I don't. I

287
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,399
Speaker 2: believe her. I believe everything that she has said. I

288
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,760
Speaker 2: listened very carefully. I've watched her demeanor, and I don't

289
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 2: need to believe her because her story is completely accurate.

290
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,880
Speaker 2: There is video cam of her leaving, her cell phone,

291
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 2: leaves with her at the time that she leaves. There

292
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 2: are communitytions that the girl had with other people after

293
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 2: mom leaves, we think. But that's why I'm nailing down

294
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 2: the time of death, and I will use any and

295
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 2: all means to do that. Nicole Debord Hotch Globe, I

296
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,880
Speaker 2: mean you have to. You've got to get the algamortis,

297
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,359
Speaker 2: the temperature, the rigor. You've got to look at the

298
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 2: liverra mortis, have the blood has settled. You have to

299
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,639
Speaker 2: look at extrinsic evidence, like her cell phone, her social media,

300
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 2: the mother's cell phone, the video surveillance is there. Do

301
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 2: they have a burglar alarm at times when somebody goes

302
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 2: in and out of the house A lot of them do.

303
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 2: So explain why this is so significant, Nicole, Well.

304
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 8: It's so important, and you're so right. Of course, immediate

305
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 8: family members are absolutely always going to be someone that

306
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,479
Speaker 8: the police need to examine to determine whether or not

307
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,199
Speaker 8: they could potentially be a suspect. You know, obviously in

308
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,880
Speaker 8: this case, I'm in the same boat that you're in

309
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,919
Speaker 8: and completely you believe the mother, But it's still a

310
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 8: very relevant inquiry and incredibly important that this information is

311
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 8: documented correctly because a defense attorney, you can expect, will

312
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 8: be examining this timeline in the context of the suspect

313
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 8: that is ultimately arrested for the crime and put on trial,

314
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,879
Speaker 8: So they need to know was all of this data collected,

315
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 8: was it recorded accurately? Is it possible that there was

316
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 8: an alibi for the person who's ultimately accused.

317
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,959
Speaker 2: And you know, Nicole Debord Hosch Club, it's not just

318
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 2: it's your job to cover every base. It is your

319
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 2: job to explore every avenue, whether you believe mom or don't.

320
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 2: I do, But it's not just proving your case. Number

321
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 2: one is your job, is your ethical duty. Number two,

322
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:50,919
Speaker 2: if you want to win your case, you have to.

323
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,119
Speaker 2: And number three, you want to shoot down any cocamamie

324
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 2: defense they may have before they even raise it, you know,

325
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 2: attack them before they can attack you. Let's pick it

326
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: back up where we were with John Limley.

327
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,160
Speaker 3: In fact, no one had heard from Elizabeth since seven

328
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 3: point thirty that morning. Worried, Jacqueline starts calling her daughter's

329
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 3: cell phone. The calls go straight to voicemail. Jacqueline Medina

330
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 3: heads home to the apartment. The two of them share

331
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 3: and more. On the way to her apartment, Jacqueline Medina

332
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 3: calls Elizabeth's phone NonStop, each call going to voicemail. When

333
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 3: Medina gets home, the door is unlocked. Inside, nothing seems

334
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 3: out of place. When Jacqueline goes into the bathroom, she

335
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 3: pulls back the shower curtain, finding Elizabeth Medina unconscious. She

336
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,880
Speaker 3: calls nine to one one for help.

337
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 2: Okay, that actually makes me nauseous, Karen Stark. The thought

338
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 2: of pulling back your shower curtain and seeing the one

339
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 2: you love the most, your world, your heart, your music,

340
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: your air is lying there dead in her pajamas. I

341
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 2: mean I don't know how this mom is putting one

342
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 2: foot in front of the other.

343
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 4: That's such a terrible, a terrible visual. We can all

344
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 4: picture it and how horrific it must have been. And

345
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 4: this mom really, Nancy, I know you love the kids.

346
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 4: She's like you. She's dedicated to this girl. She moved here,

347
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 4: she moved there for her. It's all about her daughter.

348
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 4: And so this is something that I can't imagine she

349
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 4: will ever be able to get over. She'll need a

350
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 4: lot of help just to get through her gaze.

351
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 2: Man, I know it. One step at a time. Yeah,

352
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 2: take a lesson to crime Onlines Lee Egan.

353
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 10: The Enna Police Department receive a call of an unresponsive

354
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 10: juvenile at about seven pm at the Cottonwood Apartments. First

355
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 10: responders work to save the teen's life, but she's pronounced

356
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 10: dead at the scene. Jackal Madina tells katrk that there

357
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 10: was no forced entry into the apartment and there are

358
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,439
Speaker 10: only two keys. Jack Medina has one and Elizabeth had

359
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 10: the other. According to the teen's aunt, she was still

360
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 10: in her pajamas, leading the family to believe she was

361
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 10: murdered that morning before school.

362
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 2: Well, that makes absolute sense. Elaine Ardia is joining me.

363
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 2: Senior investigative crime reporter at the Messenger, Elaine Ardias, again,

364
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Tell me about the

365
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 2: apartment complex. And just because there's no forced entry, that

366
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that the killer is someone known to the victims.

367
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 2: You know, somebody knocks at my door. I think I've

368
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 2: got the twins trained. I look out first, I see

369
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 2: who it is. I ask, even though I can see them,

370
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,239
Speaker 2: who is it? And I hear what they say, is

371
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 2: it an Instacart?

372
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 9: Well?

373
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: Did I order an Instacart? Is it an Amazon? Did

374
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 2: I order an Amazon? But a sixteen year old girl,

375
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 2: somebody may have knocked at the door. I don't know

376
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 2: if they've got a peephole. I don't know if she

377
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: can see out. From what I could see of the apartment,

378
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 2: there was not a way for her to see who's

379
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 2: on the other side of the door. So she may

380
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 2: have just opened the door. And the guy says, hey,

381
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 2: can I bar you phoned the fact that she opened

382
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 2: the door? It's over. So what can you tell me

383
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 2: about this area of town? Elaine Ardias? And do you

384
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 2: know anything about that apartment complex?

385
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 6: These apartment complexes, you know, they're very big, but at

386
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 6: the same time.

387
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 5: Everyone knows everyone. But we're talking.

388
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 6: About a sixteen year old girl getting ready for school.

389
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 6: It's possible that there was a knock at the door,

390
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 6: or even if she had the door unlocked. There are

391
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 6: apartment doors very common that they're not modernized, you know,

392
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 6: and they don't automatically lock when you close them. You

393
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 6: could have just opened up the door. Again, this is

394
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 6: a town of six thousand people. Things like this don't

395
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 6: happen there.

396
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 5: And so everyone trusts everyone, and no one's a stranger,

397
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 5: even if they are, you know, So the last thing

398
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 5: on anyone's mind is that if I opened the door.

399
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 6: There's a murderer standing in front of me. So these

400
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 6: are the kind of you know, apartment complexes that everyone

401
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 6: always kind of has an eye open.

402
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: Do you know if it was they were on the

403
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: bottom or the third floor? What floor were they on

404
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: of the apartment that part? I have not seen. I

405
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 2: have an either, and I've really looked jump in Chris

406
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: mcdonna about how a perp could have gotten in without

407
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: the mother or the daughter knowing the perp.

408
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 7: So, Nancy, there's a couple of ways. First of all, obviously,

409
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 7: the suspect has to be very familiar with that geographic

410
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 7: region i e. Meaning that the apartment complex as a whole.

411
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 7: So what the cops are going to do right off

412
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 7: the bat from one of the very first things is

413
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 7: they're going to do as we've talked in the past

414
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 7: about a victim risk continuum, and this is obviously a

415
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 7: very low risk situation. So you have a young girl

416
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 7: getting ready for school, she's found deceased in her bathtub.

417
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 7: And now the second question they're going to have is, Okay,

418
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 7: we got a low risk situation here. What is the

419
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 7: contact point here to your point on this question, and

420
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 7: the contact point meaning how does the suspect know that

421
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 7: this young lady is in this apartment number one, number two.

422
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 7: If the suspect did know she's in this apartment, who

423
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 7: are the geographic connections within this building and or what

424
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 7: brought him to this building? Is it a social media

425
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 7: hook ie is fishing for her? Is it a scenario

426
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 7: where he knows somebody is he working in the area

427
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 7: and he's been surveilling her accidentally may have seen her,

428
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 7: and all those variances should be taken into place or

429
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 7: taken into consideration right from the get go, And that

430
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 7: would kind of set the play for him, maybe using

431
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 7: a roosh at the front door. She opens the door. Hey,

432
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 7: I'm the maintenance guy. And this is just hypothetical, of course,

433
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 7: but those are the kind of scenarios that could potentially

434
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 7: play out in there.

435
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: Taking a look at Cottonwood apartments right now, and they

436
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: all seem to be universally two stories with even the

437
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 2: bottom the bottoms have a balcony or a porch of sorts,

438
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 2: and you know the number. Think about Coburger again, he's

439
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: supposed to boy for so many aspects of crime. A

440
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: sliding glass door the easiest thing in the world to

441
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 2: get into. Okay, I want to move forward. I don't

442
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 2: know if they know the purp or not, but I

443
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: do know there was no forest entry. And another thing,

444
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: isn't it true? Back to Elaine or d a senior

445
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: crime report of the Messenger, things looked in order. It

446
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 2: didn't look like anything that there had been a struggle

447
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 2: of any.

448
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 9: Sort, right struggle.

449
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 6: Nothing was taken. Again, no force to entry socy.

450
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 2: Previous break ins would also be Chris, gohey, please, you're right.

451
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 7: Previous break ins in that geographic region and or that

452
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 7: apartment would be critical in a.

453
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 2: Case you're so right, You're so right, and again everyone

454
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: jump in. We need all the wisdom and knowledge that

455
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: everybody on this panel has. And then we get a

456
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: little bit of a break. Take a listen to our

457
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: cut five Crime Online.

458
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 10: The search for a suspect begins the day after Lizbeth murder,

459
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 10: and the police release surveillance photos of a person in

460
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 10: a vehicle of interest. The bearded man in the photo

461
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 10: is wearing a black vocalhooded sweatshirt and he's seen driving

462
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 10: a silver Ford Tourists. Police it's possible that he is

463
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 10: a tattoo behind his right ear. Few other details are released.

464
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: And not only that he's running. I mean, let's get

465
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: real about it.

466
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace back to you.

467
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: Chris mcdona. If you don't want to bring attention to

468
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: her yourself, don't run from a crime scene. Has nobody

469
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: watched a movie? If you want to get away with it,

470
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 2: you walk out calmly. I mean, I don't need to

471
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: help any fellows out there listening in. But he's sprinting

472
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: from the area of that apartment to his four Taurus.

473
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: It's like taking out an ad on Third Avenue. Find

474
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: me I did it.

475
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, Nancy, and talk about a huge red flag.

476
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 7: And when he gets into that car because they are

477
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 7: so close believe it or not, to the US border,

478
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 7: and there are camera systems all over those highways.

479
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 2: Man, you're not kidding. I mean you know Nicole de

480
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: Boord hotch Globe now criminal defense attorne, former prosecutor. That's

481
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: one thing I love to argue to jury's. Hey, you

482
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: see a Saint trooper come up behind you on the interstate.

483
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: You might touch your brake to slow down a little bit,

484
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 2: but do you really take off at one hundred and

485
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: twenty mph? No, flight is indicative of guilt. Now, many

486
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: jurisdictions that cannot be instructed to the jury. The judge

487
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: can't say the stakes and still argue it. Here you

488
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: got a guy running early in the morning, caught on

489
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: surveillance video straight to his car from the area of

490
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: her apartment.

491
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 8: Absolutely, and in Texas you can most certainly make that

492
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 8: argument as a prosecutor that flight is indeed as an

493
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 8: indicator of guilt, and the person is flinging because of

494
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 8: a guilty conscience, And so you can certainly expect that

495
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 8: the prosecutor, ultimately, if his case goes to trial will

496
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 8: be making those types of argument, arguments that you know,

497
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 8: if he's just casually walking around the apartment complex, there

498
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 8: would be no reason for him to suddenly take off

499
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 8: running and then jump into his car and flee.

500
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: The doctor barr. How do you obtain DNA from under

501
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: a dead victim's fingernails?

502
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 9: We use We use these little paddles that like sort

503
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 9: of scrape under the nails. We also will clip the

504
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 9: fingernails right down to the quick and so you not

505
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 9: only take the nail off, but you also scrape under

506
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 9: the nail. The other thing I wanted to mention was,

507
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 9: I don't know if this was brought up in this

508
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 9: case or not, but in this particular case, being that

509
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 9: she's a young woman, we don't know what the motive is.

510
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 9: I would certainly want to do a sexual assault kid.

511
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 9: Oh gosh, yes, he very well could have left DNA

512
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 9: behind that way as well.

513
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: And we've just seen in the Long Island serial killer case,

514
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: Rex Huerman suspect number one, that hair the suspect's wife

515
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: has been found on at least one or not, if

516
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: not more, of the many many victims, most likely a

517
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: transfer from the defendant. But long story short, there's a

518
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: possibility of a hair transfer, a sex assault kit, fingernails,

519
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: all that would be entered into the DNA database, but

520
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: then a stroke of luck. Take a listen to Jackie

521
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: Howard crime online.

522
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 11: Two days after the murder of Elizabeth Medina, Edna police

523
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 11: announce and arrest the suspect as a twenty three year

524
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 11: old undocumented migrant thought to have been living in the

525
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 11: US for the past five years. His name Rothael go

526
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 11: Via Romero. He was captured about seventy five miles north

527
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 11: of Edna in Schulenburg, Texas, where he reportedly has family.

528
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 11: Romero is jailed on suspicion of capital murder. KPRC reports

529
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 11: his bond is set at two million dollars.

530
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: Chiwylane Ardia is joining a senior crime A reporter. The

531
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: messenger Eline, tell me everything you know about his capture.

532
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 6: The Edna Police Department had been working with so many

533
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 6: law enforcement agencies, from the Texas Rangers to DPS to

534
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 6: all sorts of other agencies, and they got a call

535
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 6: that they needed this is the person that they were

536
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 6: looking for.

537
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 2: Because of the photo that was released.

538
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 9: Because of the photos, so.

539
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 6: There was a five thousand dollars reward attached to it

540
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 6: as well, and so people called in and at that time,

541
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 6: what we didn't know was that they started coordinating with Schulenberg,

542
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 6: Texas Police. Schullenberg is another small Texas town about an

543
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 6: hour north of Edna.

544
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 5: So we're talking, this is all.

545
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 6: Outside of Houston, and these are these little towns that

546
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 6: are sort of dotted along the highway, and so it's

547
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 6: an hour north of Edna, and they coordinated with Schulenberg.

548
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 6: They went to the house they suspected he was at.

549
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 5: And it was without incident.

550
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 6: They when they went and knocked at the door, whoever

551
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 6: the door said, yes, he's here, and so police arrested him.

552
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: At that time, Question Elaine Ardas, I've heard reports that

553
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 2: we now have a CEOD cause of death.

554
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 4: What is it that she was stabbed to death?

555
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 6: She was found stabbed to death in her pajamas in

556
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 6: the bathtub.

557
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut eleven Dave Mac.

558
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 12: Police now say Elizabeth Medina was stabbed to death, her

559
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 12: body left in the bathtub. Rafael Govea Romero, twenty three,

560
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 12: arrested in the murder after police and Texas rangers acted

561
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 12: on a tip. They went to Romero's family home in Schulenberg,

562
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,919
Speaker 12: seizing evidence from Romero's Silver Taurus which police say links

563
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 12: him to Medina's death. Romero is an undocumented demigrant living

564
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 12: in the US on an expired visa, police said. Edna

565
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 12: Police Chief rig Boone said Romero has been in the

566
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 12: US illegally after overstaying his visa. His family has reported

567
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 12: that lived in Schullenberg for about five years. Romero has

568
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 12: been detained by US Immigration and Customs enforcement. No motive

569
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 12: has been released for the deadly stabbing.

570
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: Of course, the state never has to prove a motive.

571
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: But coincidentally, I think we've got a motive. Take a

572
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: listen to our cut seven Lee Egan.

573
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 10: Jackal Mandina tells local news agencies that it's possible that

574
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 10: her daughter's death is related to a recent break in

575
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 10: at their unit, and the police chief, Rick Boons his

576
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 10: items missing from the apartment were found in Romero's possession.

577
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,720
Speaker 10: Details on how Romero was captured have not been revealed,

578
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 10: but police say Romero confessed to the murder. Jackal Mandina

579
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 10: does not recognize the suspect.

580
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: To Nicole Deeboord Hotch Globe joining us the brutal stabbing

581
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 2: death of a tain girl first thing in the morning,

582
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: right after mom leaves, getting ready to go cheer in

583
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: this jurisdiction is one aggravating circumstance to seek the death penalty.

584
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 2: Of course, particularly heinous, that's everywhere. But what about if

585
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: a murder occurs during the commission of another felony such

586
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 2: as burglary, robbery, or rape.

587
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 8: All of those things would would make this case eligible

588
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 8: to be considered for the death penalty. And that's something

589
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 8: that I can guarantee. Given the horrific nature of the

590
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 8: fact of this case, this jurisdiction will be seriously considering.

591
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 2: I don't want this guy to just be deported. You know,

592
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: very often you hear me Chris McDonald talk about I

593
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: got to pay for this guy's three hots in a cot.

594
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 2: I don't mind paying for this guy's three hots in

595
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: a cot until it gets to the DP, which is

596
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: going to be a long time if it's even sought.

597
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: But you know what, sometimes it's worth Chris.

598
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 7: You're very correct, Nancy, And this is the kind of

599
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 7: guy that is obviously showing signs that he probably would

600
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 7: have done this again had he not been arrested. I mean,

601
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 7: the fact that he hides the body he flees. He

602
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 7: possibly could have broken in before. This is not his

603
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 7: first rodeo, and it would have kept on going.

604
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 2: And he definitely was stealing stuff. I mean items were

605
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: At first when they went in, nothing was apparently missing,

606
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: but then they realized when they got him he had

607
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 2: items from the home. But to hell with the items.

608
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: The girl, it's all that mattered, Nancy.

609
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 4: I'm wondering when he broke in the first time that

610
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 4: was him is he saw pictures of her and that's

611
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 4: what brought him back there. That he didn't really know her,

612
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 4: but he saw pictures, photographs.

613
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 2: We wait as just as of foals, and our prayers

614
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: are with Lizabeth's mother. She is in pure hell right now.

615
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 2: Goodbye friend, you