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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. A reduction of shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio Transition to Putt.

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Speaker 1: She looked absolutely beautiful. She had to kiss curls going.

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Speaker 1: She was in a pair of Type Jean. She had

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Speaker 1: breast at that time. So we started talking and she

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Speaker 1: told me, girl, you need to get on models. Girl

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Speaker 1: used to get on moans. Yes, Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Laverne Cox Show. On today's episode, we'll be talking

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Speaker 1: about the life of someone who means so very much

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Speaker 1: to me. Tracy Norman is legendary in the modeling world.

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Speaker 1: In the nine seventies, she helped great color barriers as

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Speaker 1: a black high fashion and commercial model. She was the

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Speaker 1: first black woman to appear on a box of clear

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Speaker 1: Ale hair color number of five twelve dark auburn and

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Speaker 1: incredible achievement for any model at the time. Norman has

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Speaker 1: modeled and been photographed for publications such as Essence, Vogue Italia,

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Speaker 1: Harper's Bizarre India, among others. She used to walk the

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Speaker 1: runway twice a day in Paris for Valenciaga. All this

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Speaker 1: from a woman from Newark, New Jersey, who had been

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Speaker 1: assigned mail at birth, but no one knew. I discovered

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Speaker 1: her about eleven years ago and couldn't stop talking about her.

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Speaker 1: Discovering Tracy just opened up this this world for me

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Speaker 1: of just imagining what her life was like, what trans

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Speaker 1: life was like in the seventies in New York, which

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Speaker 1: I've always been obsessed with the fact that there was

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Speaker 1: a black trans woman on a claral hair color box

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Speaker 1: that was in drug stores all over the country. Just

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Speaker 1: is deeply in aspiring to me to this day. And

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Speaker 1: found her number and called her, and eleven years later

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Speaker 1: we get to have a conversation here on this podcast

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Speaker 1: about her life, her groundbreaking career, and how her resilience

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Speaker 1: and ability to reinvent herself have carried her back into

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Speaker 1: the arms of the modeling world today, Open and free.

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Speaker 1: But first, please be advised that there is a short

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Speaker 1: story which references an assault that some may find disturbing

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Speaker 1: and or triggering. Please enjoy my conversation with Tracy Africa Norman. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm here, Hello, Tracy Norman, Welcome to the podcast. How

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Speaker 1: are you feeling today, Darling? I am doing great and

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Speaker 1: thank you for allowing me to be a part of this.

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Speaker 1: It is my absolute joy and pleasure to be able

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Speaker 1: to have this conversation with you. You you are your

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Speaker 1: living legend, and you are so important to me and

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Speaker 1: to our community, and I believe to the world. I

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Speaker 1: would love to get started by letting folks know a

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Speaker 1: little bit about you. But I want to start with

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Speaker 1: the day that you met Irving Penn, one of the

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Speaker 1: fashion world's most iconic photographers and ended up on the

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Speaker 1: pages of Italian Vogue. Can you talk us through the

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Speaker 1: day that that happened. Yeah. Sure. I got a phone

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Speaker 1: call from a friend album Brundy, and he gave me

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Speaker 1: a phone call because at that time I was still

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Speaker 1: learning how to walk. Because he was training me, so

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Speaker 1: a listing of when the seven that venue shows were

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Speaker 1: going on. So he would send me to these places

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Speaker 1: and what I would do is take my portfolio with

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Speaker 1: me and in order for me to get in, because

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Speaker 1: it's invitation only, I would to tell them that I

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Speaker 1: am a student at f I T and they would

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Speaker 1: let me come in and line up behind the wall.

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Speaker 1: The day that I was discovered she sent me to

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Speaker 1: the Pierre Hotel. I was assuming that I was going

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Speaker 1: to see another fashion show, so as I was coming

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Speaker 1: across the street. I noticed on the opposite side of

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Speaker 1: Fifth Avenue, in front of the hotel, there was a

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Speaker 1: group of models that I had recognized, so I followed

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Speaker 1: him all on the elevator. We attendant was there and

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Speaker 1: they knew the fort that they were going to, so

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Speaker 1: she let us off at the floor. I went to

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Speaker 1: the right, not knowing where I was going, and the

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Speaker 1: other girls went to the left and they went down

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Speaker 1: this very long hallway to this huge suite on the end.

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Speaker 1: But all the girls was lined up outside and they

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Speaker 1: were going in. One time. I just send online. For

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Speaker 1: some reason, my feet would move and I just stayed

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Speaker 1: there and I was the lastly all mine. So when

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Speaker 1: I went in, I didn't realize that I was speaking

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Speaker 1: to Mr Penn at the time. He asked me my

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Speaker 1: name and was I was an agency, and I told

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Speaker 1: him no, and yes that I had if I had

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Speaker 1: a picture, that I could leave him with my information,

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Speaker 1: which I did, and about three days later I got

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Speaker 1: a phone call from his assistance telling me that that

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Speaker 1: I'm being vote for Italian Vogue and it's the two

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Speaker 1: days shoot fifteen hundred dollars for each day. That is amazing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: do you remember how old you were roughly when all

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Speaker 1: of this happened. Yeah, I graduated in seventy two at eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and that didn't take place until seventy five, so I

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Speaker 1: was in my early twenties. And for the very first

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Speaker 1: go see that you didn't even know you were on,

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Speaker 1: you ended up an Italian vogue. That is an unbelievable story.

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Speaker 1: It's so crazy. Can you tell me what the she

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Speaker 1: was like? Well, when I got to the studio, there

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Speaker 1: was people were setting up the cameras. I saw Mr Penn.

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Speaker 1: He was sitting out a desk and he was talking

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Speaker 1: on the phone. I waved to him and he pointed

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Speaker 1: me to the dressing room and there were a couple

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Speaker 1: of girls that were already there who was getting their

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Speaker 1: makeup and hair done. I said good morning to everybody,

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Speaker 1: but no one spoke m hmm. Interesting. And so afterwards,

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Speaker 1: Peggy Diller came through the door and came into the

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Speaker 1: dressing room. I said hello to Peggy, and she was

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Speaker 1: the one that spoke back to me, and she told

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Speaker 1: me that I was pretty. I thanked her and it

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Speaker 1: was just her aura that I levitated to. And then

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Speaker 1: we got dressed, we got our makeup, and hair done,

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Speaker 1: got dressed and sat in front of the camera. He

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Speaker 1: placed everybody started taking photos and that was that full day.

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Speaker 1: And then the second day we went through that whole

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Speaker 1: process again. And after the phone shoot, even before I

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Speaker 1: got undressed to to leave, he approached me and said,

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Speaker 1: let me make a phone call. So he called an

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Speaker 1: agency and he was speaking on the phone to the

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Speaker 1: owner and said that he was going to send this

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Speaker 1: new girl by and he wants him to sign me

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Speaker 1: up to the agency. M hmm. And when he was talking,

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Speaker 1: he said that he had a young Beverly Johnson standing

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Speaker 1: in front of him. That's amazing. And there to restarted,

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Speaker 1: because after that then I had the meeting with Soli himself.

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Speaker 1: He signed me and things were progressing from there. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I want to just unlet folks know that Zoli was

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Speaker 1: a modeling agency at the time. They represented a lot

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Speaker 1: of the models in the day. This is and Peggy Dillard.

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Speaker 1: Folks told know is the second black woman to be

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Speaker 1: up here on the cover of American Vogue after Beverly Johnson.

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Speaker 1: So how did your life change after he was signed

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Speaker 1: with Zoli. It was a whirlwind because I started booking immediately,

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Speaker 1: and I wasn't even seeing clients. They were making phone

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Speaker 1: calls and the word was getting out that there was

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Speaker 1: a young Beverly Johnson on the scene and so first,

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Speaker 1: because I didn't know what I was doing, basically, he

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Speaker 1: started sending me to Florida to do catalog work. Even

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Speaker 1: though he didn't want these pictures in my portfolio, he

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Speaker 1: still wanted me to get comfortable in front of the camera.

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Speaker 1: And when I came back, he said that I needed

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Speaker 1: to show up at such and such a place at

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Speaker 1: such a time and it was a test. So I

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Speaker 1: did not knowing that this test was for cloud All

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Speaker 1: uh and that's how they were picking girls. So the

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Speaker 1: hairdresser was there, the makeup artist and the photographer. They

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Speaker 1: liked my photo and two days later I got a

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Speaker 1: phone call from Jobe saying that I got the job

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Speaker 1: to be on a hair color box and the photo

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Speaker 1: shoot went well and he wanted me to come in

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Speaker 1: to sign the contract. So I signed a three year contract. Wow,

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Speaker 1: how long after the Italian Vogue you did the Claire

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Speaker 1: All hair color box moment happened to you? Remember that?

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Speaker 1: I think was about six months later because I was

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Speaker 1: still flying down to Florida to to get familiar being

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Speaker 1: in front of the camera, learning how to move and

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Speaker 1: also at that time still trying to lose weight. That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: So this is an iconic moment. Tracy was on a

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Speaker 1: clear all hair color box and the color was all

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Speaker 1: burned and it's a born beautiful on that hair color box,

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Speaker 1: which is just such a beautiful image. In the first

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Speaker 1: time I heard about Tracy, were read about her with

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Speaker 1: Monica Robert's blog The Transgrio. May Monica rest in peace,

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Speaker 1: and immediately googled you after I read the article and

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Speaker 1: saw that iconic image, and I think my mother used

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Speaker 1: that hair color. I remember seeing that hair color box

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Speaker 1: when I was a little kid in Alabama. So is

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Speaker 1: it my understanding that this claral hair color boxes in

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Speaker 1: drug stores all over the country. Yes. I went into

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Speaker 1: the drug store one day with my mom and I

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Speaker 1: came around to look for shampoo and hair conditioner, and

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Speaker 1: then that was the same aisle that their hair color

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Speaker 1: boxes was in, and I saw my boxes, started yelling

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Speaker 1: for my mom in the store. Oh my god. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was very exciting. It's so exciting to think about.

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Speaker 1: So you are this black trans girl from Newark, New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get to all of your background. But

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Speaker 1: you're standing in a drug store and you're on a

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Speaker 1: Claral hair color box. I mean, anything else about how

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Speaker 1: you felt in that moment seeing that it was for real.

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Speaker 1: I was just like an awe and yelling for my mom,

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Speaker 1: and she was just so proud. And so we just

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Speaker 1: took a couple of boxes off the shelf and took

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Speaker 1: them home, and she kept one. I kept one for

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Speaker 1: as long as I could. We were just delated. Wow.

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Speaker 1: So so at this time, it's because it's about nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy five, you're getting you're starting to model. You're modeling

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Speaker 1: for Essence magazine, You've already model for Vogue, You've booked

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Speaker 1: in the first six months, you booked a Claire All

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Speaker 1: campaign with the Whirlwind part of it. Can you paint

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Speaker 1: a picture for us of what you know a day

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Speaker 1: and an evening might be like in the life of

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Speaker 1: Tracy Norman modeling in the seventies. So I went to

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Speaker 1: a couple of parties. Well, I went to the garage,

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Speaker 1: of course, but then all the models were going to

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Speaker 1: the garage anyway, so I went there. I also went

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Speaker 1: to studio fifty four at one point where a local

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Speaker 1: designer who was from Noork who lucked up and got

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Speaker 1: a big contract in his own showroom on Seventh Avenue.

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Speaker 1: His name was Jamie McDonald. He rest us all. There

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Speaker 1: was three three girls and two guys and got off

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Speaker 1: the limo and they opened up the gates and the studio.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the night. I'm obsessed with that whole era. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a lot of celebrities that you recognized in there.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of models you recognized in there.

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Speaker 1: It was a very busy place. And then they had

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Speaker 1: the huge balcony and so you know, I was just

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Speaker 1: making the rounds going up into the balcony. There was

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Speaker 1: a lot of um, drugs and sex going on in

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Speaker 1: the balcony because it was very dark. So I excused

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Speaker 1: myself from the balcony came back down to the thing war.

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Speaker 1: So the whole group got together because we were in

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Speaker 1: coordinating colors. Um, we were all in white and the

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Speaker 1: designer was in red. So we all just stayed on

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Speaker 1: the dance floor and started dancing. Amazing. That's incredible. And

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Speaker 1: now along your trens and no one knows do you

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Speaker 1: have I just think about the moment in my life

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Speaker 1: early transition, when I before or I would sort of

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Speaker 1: disclose to people that I was trans and sort of

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Speaker 1: the anxiety that I would have. Um, and I've talked

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Speaker 1: to other girls who lived stealth, and that's sort of

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Speaker 1: the anxiety of people discovering and like losing it all.

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Speaker 1: Was that under the surface for you during that first

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Speaker 1: shoe for Vogue, during the shoe for Claire All and

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Speaker 1: when you were doing modeling for the catalog? What was

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Speaker 1: that whole thing like for you psychologically and emotionally. Um,

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Speaker 1: I didn't give it a second thought because I identified

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Speaker 1: myself as a woman all of that time. I didn't

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Speaker 1: identify with being trans There was no such word back

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Speaker 1: then in the seventies anyway, So I always identified with

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Speaker 1: being a woman. So can you take us back a

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Speaker 1: little bit. You so you were born and raised in Newark,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey. What was your family life like growing up

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Speaker 1: in Newark? Well, growing up with my mom, I mean

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Speaker 1: she had to hold down jobs. This was a woman

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Speaker 1: back in the fifties and sixties, a single mom, So

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Speaker 1: you know, she was very busy and we had different

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Speaker 1: babysitters at some point, and there was a, um, a

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Speaker 1: house that I was in. I believe it might have

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Speaker 1: been my mother's brother's wife we were staying at, I'm

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Speaker 1: not really sure. And so she lets she let me

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Speaker 1: out while she sat on the steps with with my sister,

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Speaker 1: holding my sister, and she let me out. There on

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Speaker 1: that particular street, you know a lot of kids were

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Speaker 1: in front of their homes and playing in the streets

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Speaker 1: and riding their bikes, and so I just you know,

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Speaker 1: was playing with the other kids and wandering, and a

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Speaker 1: teenage boy that was across the street called me over,

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Speaker 1: invited me into his house, and that's when I was

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Speaker 1: already molested. Wow. Wow, did this just happen once? Um?

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Speaker 1: Did you tell your parents about it? Um? It only

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Speaker 1: happened one time. The second time he called me over,

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Speaker 1: he invited me into his bed. Mom at that time,

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Speaker 1: and so as he was undressing, you know, his chicking

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Speaker 1: down his pants and his underwear. UM, a friend of

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Speaker 1: his came out the closet and I jumped up and

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Speaker 1: ran out. And then so days after that, it was

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Speaker 1: the first time I was hearing the words fagged gay.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what all of that meant. Wow. So

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Speaker 1: after the after the assault O. Their kids started calling you,

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Speaker 1: calling you fagged and cissy. After that you were assaulted. No,

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Speaker 1: just the two guys that were going to assault me.

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Speaker 1: But I ran out the house. Wow, I'm so sorry

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Speaker 1: that happened to you. That is there's so many stories

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Speaker 1: about young people. I'm experiencing this and I experienced it

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Speaker 1: myself and it was not easy, and I'm still dealing

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Speaker 1: with the sort of the trauma and the shame from

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Speaker 1: that incident out. Yeah, I'm so sorry that happened to you.

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Speaker 1: Do you? Do you ever? Do you want to say

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Speaker 1: anything else about that moment in your in your childhood? Um? No,

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Speaker 1: because I never went back over to their house anymore,

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Speaker 1: and I just stayed um near the house that I

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Speaker 1: was being baby set hat M. Do you I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: skip ahead a little bit. Do you remember the first

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Speaker 1: time that you dressed up in girls clothes and went out?

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Speaker 1: Do you remember that first experience? Is like, Yeah, two

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Speaker 1: friends of mine, Jamie McDonald, the designer and Dale Rochester,

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Speaker 1: who was a dancer at the Albany Dance Troupe, And

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Speaker 1: they said we were going out to Halloween. Did you

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Speaker 1: want to come? And I said sure. She said, well

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Speaker 1: we want to dress you up like a girl. So

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Speaker 1: Jamie created dis turban from my head. Dar Will put

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Speaker 1: on all of its makeup. Jamie, it dis dressed for me.

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Speaker 1: And so we went into New York trying to get

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Speaker 1: into some clubs that they knew about, and they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: let us in because we looked too young. So we

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Speaker 1: hung out in front of the clubs and there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of you know, gay men going in and

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Speaker 1: out of the club. So that was my first experience.

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Speaker 1: And I was loving me because I saw myself in

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Speaker 1: a mirror and I was like, okay, how old were

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Speaker 1: you roughly when this happened. I was living as my

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Speaker 1: father saw fifteen fifteen years older in New York City,

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Speaker 1: trying to get into the clubs. They wouldn't let you in, yes,

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Speaker 1: and here I am dressed up like a girl. So

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Speaker 1: I was feeling beautiful. I'm sure you were, um and

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Speaker 1: so this would have been the mid sixties or so. Yeah, yes, amazing, amazing.

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Speaker 1: When you graduated from high school. I love this story.

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Speaker 1: When you graduated from high school, what did you say

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Speaker 1: to your mother? Well, immediately after I received my diploma

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Speaker 1: with what we went outside. We sat on the steps

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Speaker 1: I handed her my diploma and she was very proud,

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Speaker 1: and so I just looked at her and told her, Mommy,

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Speaker 1: I'm gay, And I told her that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a woman. And she said she always knew. She

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Speaker 1: was afraid to approach me because she thought that maybe

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Speaker 1: that I would reject what she was saying to me.

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Speaker 1: So she opened up her arms and gave me a

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Speaker 1: huge hug. At that time, I wasn't even thinking. I

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Speaker 1: didn't think that my mother was going to throw me

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Speaker 1: out in the streets. I didn't know. You know, I

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Speaker 1: just had to get it out because at that particular

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Speaker 1: time in my life I just had to be free. Yeah, free,

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Speaker 1: and who that male person was? Yeah? Absolutely. So it's

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Speaker 1: interesting that you said you're gay and you wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a woman, and so I think there was set

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Speaker 1: to conflation between being gay and being trans at the time.

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Speaker 1: Rumor learning how you learned that language where you had

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Speaker 1: you started hormones by then, Um, how did you begin

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Speaker 1: to understand that you could become a woman. Well, I

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Speaker 1: I learned those words when I was like fifteen, like

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Speaker 1: it was my father and being around Jamie McDonald and

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Speaker 1: Daryl because they were going to gay clubs, and so

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Speaker 1: I just associated being gay. Do that? Got it? Got it?

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Speaker 1: Did you see trans people at the clubs when you

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Speaker 1: were going to the clubs? Yes? I did the trans people,

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Speaker 1: but that wasn't until later. Um. I went to a

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Speaker 1: club called the Up to Down Staircase, and that's one

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Speaker 1: of my first experience of seeing of women like myself.

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Speaker 1: There were a mixture of white, Hispanic and black, and

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Speaker 1: they just looked absolutely beautiful. So I knew I was

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Speaker 1: in the right place, and I that's what I wanted

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Speaker 1: to be. How old were you? Do you remember how

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Speaker 1: old you were when you saw these women at the club?

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Speaker 1: I think I was about seventeen, and I was just

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Speaker 1: amazed and wondering, how did they, you know, started looking

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Speaker 1: like that? But I did run into a friend, um,

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Speaker 1: but we weren't in the same class and junior high school.

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Speaker 1: And her name was Putting at the at the time,

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Speaker 1: not at that time, but to transmition to Putting. And

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Speaker 1: so I was sitting out in pint of my father's

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Speaker 1: building and she was coming up the streets and I

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Speaker 1: recognized her, but she looked absolutely beautiful. She had to

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Speaker 1: kiss curls going. She was in a pair of type Jean.

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Speaker 1: She had dress at that time. So we started talking

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Speaker 1: and she told me, girl, you need to get on mold. Girl,

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Speaker 1: you need to get on moans. Yes, So what she

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Speaker 1: did was reach into her pocket book and she gave

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Speaker 1: me a box of birth control pills. Because it's pure hormones.

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Speaker 1: They were white pills and then they were blue pills

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Speaker 1: on the bottom. She said, don't take those. She didn't

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Speaker 1: explain why, she just said, don't take those, just take these.

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Speaker 1: And I saved them until I graduated high school because

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going to happen. I was

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Speaker 1: still living with my father and he thought this was

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Speaker 1: a phase that I was going through and I would

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Speaker 1: grow out of it. You obviously did not gride of it,

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Speaker 1: so you didn't start taking the pills until after high school.

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Speaker 1: Until after high school, I still had them with me,

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Speaker 1: and I started popping them in that summer that I graduated.

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Speaker 1: And now, in terms of getting more birth control pills

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Speaker 1: or hormones, did you continue to get them from her?

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Speaker 1: Did you find other sources? What was that process? Like,

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Speaker 1: I'm always curious about that. Yeah, I found other sources

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Speaker 1: through other girls that I had ran into in New

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Speaker 1: York and they knew a doctor in New York City

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Speaker 1: on Fifth Avenue and he was giving hormone shots. You

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Speaker 1: had to bring cash so you could get a single

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Speaker 1: lot of double and so I started going there. Once

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Speaker 1: I learned where he was, I was going. UM started

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Speaker 1: going every two weeks, then once a month. When I

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Speaker 1: was getting injections, it was a funny taste in my mouth,

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Speaker 1: and at one point I did throw up, but I

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Speaker 1: don't know what it was from what I kept going back. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, this reminds me of my first hormone shot.

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Speaker 1: There was a doctor on the Upper West Side this

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Speaker 1: is He was a plastic surgeon, but on Wednesdays he

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Speaker 1: it was sort of trans day. So you go into

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Speaker 1: the waiting room and they're all these trans women who

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Speaker 1: were just gorgeous, and they had stories and they had

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Speaker 1: a lot of surgery and apparently he had been around

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Speaker 1: for a long time. Wow. So so you're so you're

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Speaker 1: taking hormones for a while. Um, you you're transitioning. Did

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Speaker 1: you still live with your mom or did you move

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Speaker 1: to the city. No, I was still living with my mother,

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Speaker 1: and so UM. Person by the name of Tommy Garrett,

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Speaker 1: who was a big Ford mom who lived in Nork

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Speaker 1: at that I knew before my transition. He looked at

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Speaker 1: me and so he said me that I was beautiful

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Speaker 1: and I should become a model. And I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: why not? Same for a short break. When we come back,

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Speaker 1: Tracy tells us about the day that changed her career

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Speaker 1: and life forever. Okay, we're back. I want to fast

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Speaker 1: forward a little bit. Um, So you've been modeling, you've

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Speaker 1: done mcclar all campaign. What I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: the day at the Essence magazine photo shoot where everything changed.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk us through what you remember about the

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Speaker 1: day when everything changed for you in the modeling business. Yes? Um,

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Speaker 1: my second time assessors magazine, Susan Gailler, called the agency

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Speaker 1: and had me come by the office to explain to

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Speaker 1: me exactly what the photo shoot would be about. So

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Speaker 1: I met her in the office. She introduced me to

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Speaker 1: a woman that was going to box brade my hair

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Speaker 1: individually and then beat my hair. And you know, all

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Speaker 1: of these gold bees and so that's about two and

399
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: a half days for them to blade my hair then

400
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: beat each in every grade and so, and mind you,

401
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to get any sleep becaus soon as

402
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: you turn, you go clink clink clink lit while all

403
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 1: those bees and the beats were very heavy. So the

404
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: fourth day was the photo shoot. I showed up, got

405
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: my makeup done, and susan Um was explained to me

406
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: what she wanted from me in front of the camera

407
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: to act like Cleopatra sailing down the Nile. So we

408
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: was walking around with this beautiful shoal around her and

409
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: she took it off, and she told me to take

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Speaker 1: my bra off, and she tied that around me and

411
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Speaker 1: nodded it in the back. Then we went on home

412
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Speaker 1: to set. She sat me down in front and gave me,

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Speaker 1: you know those two states that my mind is going blank,

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Speaker 1: but those two ghold states that Cleopatra would hold when

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00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: she was sitting on her throne. So she gave me

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00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: bold and told me to pretend that I was Cleopatra.

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Speaker 1: And for I was just concentrating on the camera and

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Speaker 1: giving them the different angles and moving my body slowly.

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Speaker 1: And suddenly, after a few minutes of them taking the photos,

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Speaker 1: and they were very excited, the photographers in the stand,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, these are so beautiful, and she yelled out,

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00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: Tracy D's are so beautiful. We might even use one

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Speaker 1: of these for the Christmas edition. So after she said

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00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: that someone came into the door, he called Susan over

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00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: to him and they had this conversation. I was still

426
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: taking photos, but twill Susan got to him, it just

427
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: felt wrong. It felt very neative, and it Smartford notice

428
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: that I was losing concentration, so he told me the rest.

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Speaker 1: When he told me the rest, I just glanced over

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Speaker 1: to who was talking to Susan and it was one

431
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: of the assistant hairdressers from the first photo shoot that

432
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: I did with Essence, and he left. I was still

433
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: sitting in front of the cameras. She went over to

434
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: the camera box and looked at the photos, then looked

435
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: at me, looked at the photos and said, well, I

436
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: think we have it. So she liked cut the set.

437
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: She'll tell you she didn't, but she cut the set.

438
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: That was it. And I went into the dressing room

439
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: and I was, you know, putting on my clothes and

440
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: I was sitting down, um, and then she came in

441
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: and started rubbing my shoulders and looking at me in

442
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: the mirror. And that's when I realized what was going on,

443
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: because the way she looked at me was different than

444
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: the other times being in her office. Anyone ever looked

445
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: at you the way she was looking at you in

446
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: that moment. No, no, unprofessional, No unprofessional. But in the

447
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: world before you were modeling, had you seen that? Luck Well,

448
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: doing transition, it's a mess. Yeah, the hot men, you know,

449
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: until you can get to the point where you you know,

450
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: your look is developing and and you're getting to know

451
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: your body and you're you know, you're dressing better and

452
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: you're wearing a braa now because your breast is growing.

453
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: And until those things take take place. Oh yeah, So

454
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: look you saw her give you in the mirror that

455
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: day was a look you had seen when you were

456
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: in transition and people were basically spooking your tea or

457
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: you know, clocking you yes. And then what happened when

458
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: she was massaging, even looking at you in the mirror,

459
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: What happened next? She just thanked me for coming. And

460
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: then she took her took her shawl and and went

461
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: went off. And I had her sign my voucher. And

462
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: the next day when I got up, I called the

463
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: management to my booker and they said that I didn't

464
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: have anything. I didn't have any ghos sees. I didn't

465
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: have any testing. There was nothing, and that went on

466
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: for two weeks. Two weeks. So before the essence shoot,

467
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: how many ghostees would you be going on a day?

468
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: For example, I was going to be clients every day

469
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: since I joined the the agency. After they stopped me

470
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: from going to Florida, UM, they started setting me out

471
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: to different magazines, et cetera. So I was definitely testing

472
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: in front of the camera and seeing photographers. But after

473
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: that essence shoot, there was literally nothing. My career stopped,

474
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: did you so you you don't know for sure what happened, right,

475
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: So two weeks go by? What do you do after

476
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: those two weeks? Yeah, I just got up one morning,

477
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: got dressed and went to Zulei and tried to find

478
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: what was going on. And so they had me wait

479
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: in the meeting room and uh Zoli came in itself.

480
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: Instead of me talking to my booker, he came in

481
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: and told me that he was dropping me and didn't

482
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: give me a read. The only reason that he gave

483
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: me was a photo shoot that I had did a

484
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,959
Speaker 1: test with down by the Port Authority. I had on

485
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: these leather pants, a white jacket, my hair was snatched back,

486
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: and I had some sunglasses standing next to a up sign,

487
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: and so he pointed at my hits in that picture,

488
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: and so he said, you're still too too big for

489
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: the agency, and that was his excuse. But I had

490
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: lost weight because I was spending the sample close, which

491
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: were a size six at that time. So you're fitting

492
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: the samples and you've booked jobs. You're you're consistently booking,

493
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: you know, And so you he tells you he's dropping you.

494
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: You basically think and suspect that you're you know, I

495
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: guess your secret is out on What was your life

496
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: like after that? But my life kind of was going

497
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: downhill because after I got my check from Cleveral, I

498
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 1: was able to leave New Jersey and get my very

499
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: first apartment on seventy of Street and Western Avenue, and

500
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,719
Speaker 1: I had my dog with me, So my mind was

501
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: that I had rent to pay and a dog to feed.

502
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: So I was just working and thinking in those terms

503
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: as I was going to work, Yeah, this is this

504
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: is a job that pay you pay your bills, and

505
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you don't have an agency, so

506
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: you can't pay your bills. So what happened next, Well,

507
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: I was running out of savings, and you know, I

508
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: wasn't able to at some point pay my rent. My

509
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: mom came over and just packed up my clothes, wrapped

510
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: my dog, and got in the car and went back home.

511
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: Did you were you able to work at all? I

512
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: tried to work at short Hill small and I did

513
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: landage job and one of the smaller boat Peaks. Instead

514
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: of working at at the Bloomingdale's or the Macy's or

515
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: any of the department stores, I got a job at

516
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: a smaller boat Seek. It was a shoe store, Italian

517
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: shoe store called Milono Um. They made Italian shoes for

518
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: Moni and most of the high end Italian designers. So

519
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: the store had just opened and I got a job,

520
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: and I was thereful maybe about I would say five months.

521
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: And one afternoon all of a sudden was getting full

522
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: with people just staring in the window. And I'm assuming

523
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: that somebody in the mall, the gay person knew me

524
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: and brought the girlfriends by to see me. Wow, and

525
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: so reading their lips they were asking where where I'm

526
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: the only female in the store besides the owner of

527
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: the store, and and and my coworker, which was a

528
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: male and they just said where, and you could see

529
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: that word coming out of their mouths. So late that day,

530
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: when you know, I was getting off this confirmed it

531
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: and get catching a bus back to north from Short Hills.

532
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: I got on the bus, sat down in the front

533
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: like I normally do, and a girl got on and

534
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: she was yelling going back to the bus with that

535
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: man that looks a woman. Oh my god, yeah, Paul me.

536
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: She didn't even look at me. She passed me and

537
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: was saying it, Wow, Jesus, did you continue to work

538
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: at this door? After that, the work got around to

539
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: him maybe about I would say a couple of weeks later,

540
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: because he was full time. Then I went part time

541
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: and then I went no time. Now, mind you, mind you.

542
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: I had a little specistication behind me during you know,

543
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: doing my little modeling day, so I knew how to dress,

544
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: I knew how to conversate with with the customer, and

545
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: so I was slowly building up a clientele and so

546
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: they would come in and asked for me. And then

547
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: you know, it got back to him and it went

548
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: from full time part time, no time. So you lose

549
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: another job because people find out your business. Yes, So

550
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: after all of this all that you've been through, where

551
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: do you go from here? So? Um, I ran into

552
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 1: a girlfriend of mine who started modeling around the same

553
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 1: time that I did in North before all the Claire

554
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: All and the Essence magazine and so her name was

555
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 1: Sherry Gordon, beautiful, breathtaking woman. And she said that she

556
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: was going to Paris that I want to go, And

557
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: I said, okay, when are you going? She said right now,

558
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to the airport's every night to see if

559
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,720
Speaker 1: I can get a standby ticket on c w A.

560
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: So I said, okay, let me get my money together,

561
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: and you know, give me your number. We exchanged numbers

562
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: and so my mom gave me the money and I

563
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: told her that I was going to Paris, but I

564
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: had to get a passport, so we had to wait

565
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,240
Speaker 1: for that. But when I got my ticket, my standby ticket,

566
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: I got my past that the same day. Do you

567
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: have any issues or we're getting your passport? No, because

568
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: I used my sister's per certificate and your sister's name

569
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: Gail correct, Yes, so you became Tracy Gail Norman after that. Yeah, modeling,

570
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: I was Tracy Gail Norman. But my passport, said Gail

571
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: Norman and between Sherry and I we may have had

572
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty dollars between the two of us.

573
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: So we landed in Paris, got into a hotel, and

574
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: the model that I told you about, Tommy Garrett, he

575
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: was already there, but we didn't know where he was.

576
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: We just had his number and he was only three

577
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: blocks away. And so when he came over, we went

578
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,919
Speaker 1: out and got something to eat, and that afternoon he said, well,

579
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: you guys got a better hotel room than I have

580
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: that I do, so I'm going to get my stuff

581
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: and move him with you. So he he moved in

582
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: with us. And so Sherry already had a connection with

583
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: the Marbeling agency, and so did Tommy. Tommy had his

584
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: connection with the modeling agency. I didn't, so I won't

585
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: with Sherry the next day to go to her agency

586
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: to see if they would book me. But they didn't.

587
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: So the goal sees that she was going on, I

588
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: would just follow her. But I wasn't tall enough. My

589
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: his was still too big. I still had to lose

590
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: weight because you really had to be skinny to be

591
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: in Paris, because the clothes were cut more narrow, so

592
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: a size fix was not happening. Ye, so, but I

593
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: was able to land a job at the palace. Now

594
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,959
Speaker 1: the Palace is equivalent to Studio fifty four in New York.

595
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: Tommy already knew the owner and the proprietor to the

596
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: project club underneath the palace, which was the Privilege, and

597
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 1: that's where we would he walked about every night, and

598
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: it happened to being maybe a three months later. Um

599
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: the owner was having his birthday party at the palace,

600
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 1: and so the proprietor for the Privilege wanted to put

601
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: on something special, so he asked me to get a

602
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: couple of other girls. Sherry didn't want to do it,

603
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 1: So I got a couple of other girls that Tommy knew,

604
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: and we put on the show Diana Russ and the Supreme.

605
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: So I was panamoning to stop in the name of love,

606
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: and it was such a hit. He loved it because

607
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: it was you know, it was just so magical, and

608
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: he tired us and we were making a hundred dollars

609
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: each night. That's amazing. So does Tommy, does Tommy know

610
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: the t Does Tommy know your secret? Does the girl

611
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: what I forget her name? That you were staying with

612
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: the other of them know your business or no, yes,

613
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: both of them knew. Sherry I met doing um after

614
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: my transition and I was becoming the smaller in locally

615
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: and doing local shows. But she knew, she knew that

616
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: well she was she was told or she knew. It

617
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: didn't matter to her anyway, however she found out and

618
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: so Commy knew me before my transition. Got it. Got it?

619
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: So how long did you work at the Palace and

620
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: then how how did you end up working for Balenciaga.

621
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: I worked at the Palace for about a year doing that,

622
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: so we were able to save up money and get

623
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: our own place. Tommy and I and Sharon had met

624
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: her future husband doing that whole year, so Tommy and

625
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: I we got a flat. But Tommy had got hooked

626
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: up with a guy that he liked, and so three

627
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 1: was a crowd. So he found a dancer who was

628
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 1: with a friend of America, black American dancer who was

629
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: in need of a roommate. So I joined him and

630
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: became his roommate. But he traveled a lot with the

631
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: dance company that he was with, so basically I had

632
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: the apartment to myself. So one day a phone call

633
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: came through and the woman who was asking for the

634
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: girl that was there before. So the girl I was

635
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: there before was a model, but she went back to

636
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: New York. So I told her that she went back

637
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: to New York. And then I instantly said, are you

638
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: looking for a model? And she said yeah. I said,

639
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: well I'm a model. Can I come in for the interview?

640
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: She said sure? Can you come in? Like this was

641
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: a Monday, can you come in on Wednesday? And I

642
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: lied to her and I told her what, I have

643
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: a previous engagement and it will be finished in two weeks. Uh,

644
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: why why did you lie? Because under its too big

645
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: to fit in anything, and so I needed time to

646
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: lose weight. And in order for me to lose weight,

647
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: I went on my popcorn diet, which that wall I

648
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: ate popcorn, water, and hot tea. How often did you

649
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: eat the popcorn? Did this work? I'm like popcorn and

650
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: picking all the carbs and popcorn popcorn when you eat

651
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: one thing? And I was drinking um. I was drinking

652
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: hot tea and just water all day and that's all.

653
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: And then I went down to the corner store and

654
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: got um this sandwich wrapped plastic and I literally wrapped

655
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: from my knees all the way up to my breast

656
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: in sandwich wrap. And I walked all over the city

657
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: for two weeks to lose this weight. Wow, how much

658
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: weight did you lose? Do you even remember how much

659
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: it was? I had no idea, but I went to

660
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: the to the interview. She took me upstairs to the

661
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 1: dressing room and she gave me this beautiful, super narrow

662
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: leather skirt to put on. Someone called her from the

663
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: room and so I was trying to squeeze it up

664
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: past my buttox and it wouldn't go. So what I

665
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: did would lay down on the floor to flatten my

666
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: butt wriggled into the skirt, and so she came in

667
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: the room and I asked her. I said, well, can

668
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: you help me with the zipper? So I just sucked

669
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: my gut in and she just wipped it up. Wow.

670
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: And she took me in there to see the designer.

671
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: He asked me to walk. I walked to him and

672
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: he said great. And that's how I got the job.

673
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: Being in the showroom for Balonciaga. It was four girls

674
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: and all of them were white, and I was the

675
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: only black girl. In my mind was a showroom where

676
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: you just modeling for potential culture clients? Were you modeling

677
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: for buyers? Who were you showing the clothes to? What

678
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 1: was that process? We were modeling for both for some

679
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: buyers and couture. One day, there was just one woman

680
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 1: in the audience sitting with the designer and she saw

681
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: the whole show and she bought clothes like that. You're

682
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: basically modeling in house, then basic modeling in the showroom. Yeah,

683
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: I was just in house. I wasn't able to do

684
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: any of the other shows because I didn't have an agent,

685
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: which kind of saved me because all the black girls

686
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: from New York were also in Paris, so they would

687
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: have recognized me, and I would have lost any job

688
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: that I got with a designer. So you're at Balenciaga

689
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: doing two shows a day. How long did that last?

690
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: How long did that go on? Do you remember? That

691
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: was about a year that I was a show room model,

692
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: and it was kind of torturous because French shoes are

693
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: very narrow and so I we have two hour lunches

694
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: and every day that after the first show, I would

695
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: go home to my apartment and run cold water in

696
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: the tub and stick my feet in the cold water

697
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: thing because the shoes were so tight. They weren't my side.

698
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: I've been there, girl, I've been really the worst. Juice

699
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: are too small are absolutely the worst. It's like you

700
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: feel like you're gonna I um, but you have to

701
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: keep a smile on your face and you have to

702
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: stand toll and walk. Absolutely, so it happened to you

703
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: were at Bluntiago for a year. Why did you leave Blantiago?

704
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: Well after that, it was during the summer, so everybody leaves,

705
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: and so my friend told me, he suggested I should

706
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: go to Italy. And there was the same situation where

707
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: the summer everyone leaves and they go abroad, or they

708
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 1: go come to America. Wherever they go, they just leave

709
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: the city. And so the city was dead. But I

710
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,439
Speaker 1: was able to do a Trump show at a coliseum there,

711
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: and then after that, um, I got a ticket back

712
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: to New York. I didn't even go back to Paris.

713
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: I should have went back to Paris. That was just

714
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: a regret that I had that I should have went

715
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: back to Paris, but I didn't, and I went back

716
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 1: to New York. Why didn't you go back to Paris?

717
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: You know, there's no work that wasn't even magazine book.

718
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: So I just went back to mom's house and went

719
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: to a smaller boutique agency, which was Grace de Marco.

720
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: There was a black loan agency, and so they hired

721
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: me on the spot, and that's how I got the

722
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: Ultra Sine cosmetic contract. And that's also the that was

723
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 1: a test that I did for Avon and the photographer

724
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: took the work up there and they liked my photo

725
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: that he took, and so they called me in and

726
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: I signed a contract with them for a year. And

727
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 1: the cosmetic company with Johnson's Cosmetics, Ultra Schine, they signed

728
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: me to a year contract. Amazing. Roughly what year with

729
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: this has been? Are we in the eighties now? Yeah,

730
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: we're about in the mid eighties, in the mid eighties.

731
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 1: So you come back from Paris, you get a boutique agency,

732
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: and then you get an ultrachine and an Avon contract.

733
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: That's pretty awesome. I've seen those photos there, um pretty epic. Yeah.

734
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,479
Speaker 1: I I hadn't been with them for a long time either,

735
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: but I already had like, you know, shots that I

736
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: did in Paris, shots that I did in New York.

737
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 1: Of course, being on a hair color box. So do

738
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: you think by the time you got back to New

739
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: York from Paris that like the rumor, I guess you're

740
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: in a new agency. Were you concerned that people were

741
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: gonna know know your business? What was that like? I

742
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: wasn't really even thinking about that. I just wanted to work.

743
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: So but they did find out because any magazine ran

744
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 1: the ads, Um, well they're magazines, you know, ran the ads,

745
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: and so people started recognizing me. Glas and Marco got

746
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: a call. I got discharged. Oh my god. So basically

747
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: right after the ads started running, someone called the agency

748
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: and then you got dismissed. Jesus Christ. Yeah, people started

749
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: recognizing me, so um, they made a phone call, and

750
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: that was that. Wow, we have to take another break.

751
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: But when we returned, why would you Chasey's mind when

752
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: she got a message from Clarel after almost four decades? Alrighty,

753
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: then let's just dive right back in. When I think

754
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: about how it was a big deal for black models

755
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: to have any kind of campaign, I just just think

756
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: about reading about Veronica Webb and Naomi Campbell and and

757
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: a mom back in like the seventies and eighties, and

758
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: how difficult it was to get beauty campaigns and that

759
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: was the goal for a lot of models at the time.

760
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: It's the way is the way I understand it. And

761
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: so at this too point, by the eighties, you've booked

762
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: three like sort of major campaigns. I'm just thinking if

763
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: you hadn't been outed, Like, what could you have done

764
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: if like because you were when you were booking a

765
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: lot and you were working a lot. Do you ever

766
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: think about that? Well, I mean, yeah, but you know,

767
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 1: like said, when I got with dres Dell Marco, I

768
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: had no I you know, I had no idea because

769
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,720
Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking in those terms. I had started working

770
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: with it, and I you know, and I was loving

771
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: the atmosphere, and I figured that, you know, a smaller agency,

772
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: I was able to hide longer, you know, instead of

773
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: a high end agency like UM Solely and because he

774
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: was famous it was like the third biggest agency in

775
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: New York at the time, Solely and so UM. I

776
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 1: just thought, you know, I might be able to just

777
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: slide in there and start working again. But it didn't happen.

778
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: What happened after you were dropped by this agencing? Well,

779
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: I after that I kind of got depressed about I

780
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: guess it was depression. The thing about depression that you

781
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: don't even know you're you're depressed, because I've never experienced

782
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: depression before. So I started hanging out with the wrong people,

783
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 1: and the drugs got involved in my life. And and

784
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: and when I did that, my best friend knocked on

785
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: my door one day and literally saved my life. Oh

786
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: how did your friends tape your life? I had hit

787
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: rock bottom and so there was no joy in my life.

788
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: And Douglas is a very funny, silly person, and he

789
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: started out all putting a smile back on my face,

790
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: and he was starting to come over to my to

791
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: my apartment every day and we would just hang out

792
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: and start talking and sorry, getting a little emotion, It's okay, okay, mhm.

793
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: And then he um started putting me in front of

794
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: the camera and building my confidence back up. Yeah, and

795
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 1: that's how mhm I became his news mm hm, m hm.

796
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 1: And we started hanging out more and more. And people

797
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 1: like Tommy and Douglas have a tendency, like my mom,

798
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: to shelter me, to protect me, and so he started

799
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 1: doing that. And I was being spoiled by him because

800
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 1: he would just give me dresses, make me dresses any time.

801
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: That I knew dresses, and that was around the time

802
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,760
Speaker 1: that I needed to work. So he told me about

803
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: still Center, and I went and got hired a show Center.

804
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: I just I want to just pause for show Center.

805
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: For people who saw Opposed, they saw a little bit

806
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 1: of what show Center was. But show Center was basically

807
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: a peep show that was existed in Times Square in

808
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: the eighties and I think early nineties and the Madonna

809
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: Open Your Heart video, it kind of like what the

810
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: peep shows were. I guess at the time. Is that

811
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: how you would describe show Center, Tracy exactly. And I

812
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: didn't mind it because the dates couldn't touch you. They

813
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: were behind this petition they hand your money through the slot,

814
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: whatever it is that they need you to do, etcetera, etcetera.

815
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: And um, show Center was where the girls worked, Okay,

816
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: And when we say the girls with the trans girls,

817
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: I think what I find so interesting about show Center

818
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: is that and what sounds beautiful actually about it at

819
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: the time. There's a lot of trans women I've read

820
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: about at the time who worked as show Center in

821
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: the eighties, and so the trans women were able to

822
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: go someplace, make a honest living, be safe and support

823
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 1: themselves and then go about their business and go about

824
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: their lives exactly exactly, because we make good money. All

825
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: of us make good money, and you start building your

826
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: own clienteles, you know, dates that were there specifically for you.

827
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: It was great money at the time. So you start

828
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: working at show center. Douglas is making you close. Um

829
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: did you do? What were you doing outside show center? Um?

830
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: I was hanging out with a girlfriend there, and so

831
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: we went to the balls and met people from the

832
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: House of Africa. That's how I became a member first.

833
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: And so the founders didn't want to be mother and

834
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: father anymore, so they elected me and Eddie to be

835
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: mother and father, and that's how I became mother. What

836
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: year with this? Roughly, this was in the early nineties,

837
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: I believe late eighties, early nineties, when I became involved

838
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: in the Health of Africa and had settled my name

839
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: Tracy Africa got over the ball community. I was bringing

840
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: something different to the table, and so I stood out

841
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 1: when I would be on the runway. Well, you had

842
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: modeled professionally for many years. Yeah, so I only knew

843
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 1: one way to do it, and so that's how I became,

844
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: you know, so popular. I first went to a ball

845
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: in the early seventies. It was very exciting. I've always

846
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: said that the ball community has the most talented people

847
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: on earth, and at that time, back then, it was

848
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: all about the girls. It wasn't about what it is now,

849
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: the vogueing and and predominantly the male part of what's

850
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: going on in the ball community. Now, I think the

851
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 1: girls just sending to pick back up. Gotcha, gotcha amazing.

852
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: So for those out there who don't know, balls are

853
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: these events. If you've seen the film Paris Is Burning,

854
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: or if you watched your show Pose, it's balls with

855
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: these houses where people sort of in their communities, you know,

856
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: for the House of the Asia, the House of Extravaganza,

857
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: et cetera. So there were places where there were families,

858
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: and in the balls would be these events where kids

859
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: would unwalk or vogue for trophies and various categories. But realness,

860
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 1: bim queen face, et cetera, et cetera. For those who

861
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: don't know what balls are, I want you skip ahead

862
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: a little bit. And when I I discovered you in

863
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: two thousand nine, I believe I started telling everyone I

864
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: knew about you. And then someone suggests to someone said, oh,

865
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: you should play Tracy in a movie. And I was like,

866
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: oh my god, that's a great idea. And I read

867
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, So I like, I did

868
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: some research and I got your phone number. I don't

869
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: know if you remember this. I got your phone number

870
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: and I called you in New Jersey and I, you know,

871
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: I explained to who I was. At this point, I've done,

872
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: you know, done some reality television. This was two thousand

873
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: and ten, and you told me your story. You were

874
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 1: amazing and so generous with your time, and then I said,

875
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 1: I would love to do, you know, a TV show

876
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: or a movie, a TV movie about you. When you

877
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: freaked out the secondness at TV, you were like, no, no, no,

878
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: I can't do that. You know, I can't have people

879
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: find out just the whole idea of that was just

880
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: like you know, you was like, I would I will

881
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,959
Speaker 1: never do this. And then in two thousand fifteen, I

882
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: saw an interview with you in New York magazine for

883
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: The Cut where you told your story, and I was

884
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: so happy and excited that you have finally come forward

885
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: to tell your story because it is legendary. It's epic,

886
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 1: the life that you have lived. What made you in

887
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen, decided to come forward and tell um,

888
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: tell your story. Um Douglas Douglas. Uh. They got in

889
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: touch with Douglas because nobody knew how to get in

890
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: touch with me. And it took a minute for me

891
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: to agree to the story. So it took like maybe

892
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: about four or five days because he was saying, we'll

893
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: look you're older now. You know, if you lived a

894
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: full life, you know you have nothing to lose, and

895
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: you know, at least tell your story because you've accomplished

896
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: something that nobody else had and that you know your

897
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: story should be told. I was kind of forced to

898
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: live a very private life. Even when I was working

899
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 1: at show Center. After I left that, it was still private.

900
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: Even when I was going for the ball after that,

901
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: I was still private. Yeah. I wasn't a fixture. I

902
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 1: learned a long time ago. When you're a fixture, whether

903
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 1: you go over a group of friends house all the time,

904
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: or you go to the neighborhood bar, or you go

905
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: anywhere a nightclub, people that get to know you start

906
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 1: disrespecting you. What do you mean by that started disrespect

907
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,879
Speaker 1: you in what way? They feel as though they can

908
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: say anything to you and be too familiar with you,

909
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: and they don't even really know you. They just see

910
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: you at these places, have small conversations with you, and

911
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: you know, just like just you know, just saying things

912
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: that were all wrong. They make assumptions about who you are, ye,

913
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: making a point asking me about my sex life, and

914
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: you know, just things like that, things are that are

915
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 1: off the wall and none of nobody's business. Yeah, I

916
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: feel you. I feel here well all the sports to

917
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: be this owner. Yeah. So when you decide, so you

918
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 1: tell your story to New York magazine, the story comes out.

919
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: What what did that feel like after all these years?

920
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: What was that like to sort of have this newspaper article,

921
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: you know, sort of claiming all of your history and

922
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: everything that you've been through. What was that like In

923
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: the beginning, when I the story came out, they attached

924
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 1: transgender to my name. That was kind of a throwback

925
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: for me, you know, because in the interview I explained

926
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: to her that I never identified as transgender, identified as

927
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: as a woman. For you, so for you, transgender with

928
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: something different and obviously that that word didn't exist back

929
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: in the day. So that didn't feel right to you.

930
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 1: It didn't feel authentic to you to have that in

931
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 1: front of your name. No, it didn't. It didn't feel right.

932
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: And then you know the girls today, they're very proud

933
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: and telling the community, telling people who they are what

934
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: they are, and I was trained not to because when

935
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 1: a child that was born in the fifties grew up

936
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies, so there was no way

937
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 1: that I was able to wear that T shirt and say,

938
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, I'm trans and I'm proud during that quality. Also,

939
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: back in the day, the protocol when trans people transitioned

940
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: was to like, you don't tell anyone, You keep your

941
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: business to yourself for safety, for all kinds of reasons.

942
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: It was girl people just didn't say anything. Back then.

943
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: Half of them you didn't even know because they left privately. Absolutely,

944
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,919
Speaker 1: I'm I'm very happy that we found out about you, though,

945
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: because I've always been inspired, deeply inspired by your story.

946
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: And what it's also inspiring is that after Claire All

947
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 1: saw the New York Magazine article, they approached you. Can

948
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about that. Yes, I

949
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: had got this email that Claibar wanted to reach out

950
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: to me. I think they tech a Douglas first again,

951
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: and he forward the email to me and they were

952
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: very evasive. On the phone, the woman on the other

953
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: end introduced herself to me and she said she was

954
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 1: representing a company and the company is interested in speaking

955
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: with you. Would you be interested? And I said, sure,

956
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: why not? And so we went to this restaurant where

957
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: we were having lunch and meeting the rest of the clients,

958
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 1: and they all sat down and so um one of

959
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 1: the people that I was meeting was saying, do you

960
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: know why you're here? I said, no, I have no clue.

961
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: So they think, well, we're from Clara and we would

962
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: like to have you come back to clar role, and

963
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 1: so many emotions was going through my brain. I was

964
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 1: feeling like I wanted to cry, I wanted to laugh.

965
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: I felt like a you know, like nervous. I was,

966
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 1: you know, like a little shaky because it was just

967
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: it was overwhelming that Clarall, even though it's under a

968
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: new owner, invited me back to represent the company. And

969
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 1: so I was just so honored with that, so amazing,

970
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 1: so beautiful. The ads are gorgeous, the photos of gorgeous.

971
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: How did it feel when you went on the shoot

972
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: for Claire All. I think forty years later. Well, I

973
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: asked them. I was joking, well jokingly kind of seriously, said, um,

974
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: do you guys know how old I am? Laughing and

975
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 1: said I said, well, you know I'm in my early sixties,

976
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: because I think I was in my earlier mid sixties

977
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: at the time. And yeah, so it was just you know, overwhelming.

978
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: And then then flew me out to California, putting me

979
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: up in the hotel. We went to the studio and

980
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 1: I met everybody can addresser and makeup people, and then

981
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: I had did differmmercial for them that day, and I

982
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: also did the advertisement for or the magazine next day.

983
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 1: You've been modeling for Douglas, right, So, but did if

984
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: how did it feel being back you did? We did

985
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: it all just kind of come right back to you

986
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: when you're a friend of the camera again. Yeah, when

987
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 1: I got in front of the camera, it felt very natural,

988
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 1: and I was comfortable enough to start moving, you know,

989
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: in front of the camera. Amazing. Now I have to

990
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 1: ask you this. So Susan Taylor. After the New York

991
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 1: Magazine article came out, she was interviewed by New York

992
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: Magazine and said, some really interesting things. Are you aware

993
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:51,439
Speaker 1: of the article and what she said in the article, Yes,

994
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,919
Speaker 1: New York Mac called me up and discussed it with me. Yeah.

995
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: In the article, she said that she she did not

996
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 1: remember shutting down the photos. She that she had no

997
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 1: recollection of that. She also said that she knew that

998
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: I don't. The language she used was disturbing, but she

999
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 1: said that she knew your business, um, and that everyone knew,

1000
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: and that she never would have You were safe at

1001
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: essence is what she what she said basically, and that

1002
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: she never would have let you go. UM. She also

1003
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 1: said in the article that she wanted to contact you

1004
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: and talk to you about it. Has she contacted you?

1005
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:28,919
Speaker 1: What do you think about what she said in that article? Um?

1006
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 1: New York mag asked me the same thing and I said,

1007
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 1: no comment. They gave me her phone number and I

1008
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: said no, thank you. I just felt like meeting her

1009
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: would be a waste of time if she says she

1010
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: don't have remember things. And I can describe exactly what

1011
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: she had on that day. She had on a cashmere

1012
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 1: pull over sweater cream color um, cream color pleated pants.

1013
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 1: She had on camel color Italian boots with a camel

1014
01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: color belt, another belt with the a black and green

1015
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: shawl that she had gotten on a trip to Egypt,

1016
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: and that's what she wrapped around my dress. I remember

1017
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: for bathing because it was a shocking moment for me.

1018
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 1: So I remember everything. I remember what the photographer had on.

1019
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 1: I remember what the makeup artist had on. I remember

1020
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 1: what the person that came in the Doorheall years ago,

1021
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 1: I got to confront a kid who would bullied me.

1022
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 1: They didn't remember any of the bullying. I remember every

1023
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: single detail. When something horrible happens to you, you remember

1024
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 1: all the details and what's deep. As the bullies often

1025
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 1: don't remember at all. They're like, oh that that happened.

1026
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: Oh I didn't I don't remember. Um. So yeah, Oh, Tracy,

1027
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much for sharing all this today.

1028
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: I'm just so blown away by your life and I'm

1029
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 1: just so grateful that you've shared it with us today.

1030
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 1: Is there's something else you want to wrap up with

1031
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: and share with the people. Sure. I recently received an

1032
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 1: email from the Only in Black History Museum and they're

1033
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,439
Speaker 1: in contact and negotiations with me to put my work

1034
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 1: in the museum in Washington, d C. Oh my god,

1035
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 1: that's amazing. Oh we are History is so important, and

1036
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with our history and you are living history

1037
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 1: that everyone should know about. So I like to end

1038
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 1: the podcast with a question that comes from my therapy,

1039
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 1: and basically the question is what else is true? And

1040
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: it's basically, if something is challenging in our lives and

1041
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 1: that creates anxiety or nerves or whatever, there is something

1042
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 1: else in our lives that we can also lean into

1043
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 1: that is positive, that it's neutral or positive, and it

1044
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 1: can shift our nervous systems. It can shift like the

1045
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: day we're having. So I ask you today, Tracy Africa Norman,

1046
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 1: what else is true? Well? When I try not to

1047
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: concentrate on the negative, and so I'm on the spiritual journey.

1048
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:04,919
Speaker 1: So I read my daily word every day, I read

1049
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 1: the Bible, and I read these self help books that

1050
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 1: we're giving to me, and you know, surrounded myself with

1051
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: positive people and I just stay away from the natives

1052
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: and there you go, there you go. Thank you so much,

1053
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 1: miss Norman. I am deeply honored that you've taken this

1054
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 1: time to share your incredible story with us. Thank you,

1055
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: and I'm honored that you reached out to me. It's

1056
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 1: just amazing that your love has shined on my light

1057
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 1: for so long, and we've been in conversations through texting

1058
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 1: and it's just so joyful. Thank you so much. I

1059
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: really appreciate that. Thank you, Thank you, Miss Norman. Thank you,

1060
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 1: and stay safe. That was amazing And I think if

1061
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 1: there are any takeaway days we can glean, there's there

1062
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 1: are many. I think about how important it is to

1063
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: honor our history. Transgender isn't a term that Tracy seems

1064
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: to want to embrace, but she is living trans history

1065
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 1: and having a sense of what her life was like

1066
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: in the seventies and eighties and nineties is deeply important

1067
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Speaker 1: to me as a transperson, deeply inspiring. And this, this

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Speaker 1: thread throughout Ms Norman's life is that she had support

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Speaker 1: Tommy Sherry, her friends who dressed her up for the

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Speaker 1: very first time, and of course Douglas. These people throughout

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Speaker 1: her life community that have kept her alive and given

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Speaker 1: her sustenance and a warm place to land. Community is

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Speaker 1: so important. Family is so important. If it's not your

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Speaker 1: family of origin, it can be a chosen family. How beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. If

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Speaker 1: you like what you here, please rate reviews, subscribe, and

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Speaker 1: share with everyone you know. Join me July when I

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Speaker 1: kick off our next series of episodes with Dr Cornell West, philosopher,

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Speaker 1: republic intellectual professor, and one of my greatest spiritual teachers.

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Speaker 1: You've probably heard him on the Type Rope podcast, seeing

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Speaker 1: him on CNN, or read one of his twenty books

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Speaker 1: on race, democracy and justice, and I am so very

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Speaker 1: excited to share our powerful conversation on love, truth, and

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Speaker 1: so much more. You can find me on Instagram and

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Speaker 1: Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox

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Speaker 1: for Real. Until next time, stay in the love. The

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Speaker 1: Laverne Cox Show is a production of Shonda land Audio

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Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from

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Speaker 1: Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.