1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Austra. This week protests, pipelines and 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: property destruction. It seems like every day a new bit 3 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: of climate activism makes the news a vang covered in soup. 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: What is worth more? All life? The two of the 5 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: France halted by protesters dragging them off the road. You 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: can actually see him the dragging off the road. Prascalino 7 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: extet de France Yellow Jersey obviously threw one down in 8 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: the ditch. There scenes here and we don't need that 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: disrupt in this bicycle right. Fights breaking out between enraged 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: drivers and activists blocking roads scraps. They are picking up 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: protesters one by one and dragging them. As alarm and 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: urgency grows about the lack of action on climate change, 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: the tactics employed by activists are escalating, with frequent examples 14 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: of direct action and civil disobedience, many that annoy people 15 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: but succeed in attracting the attention they seek. My guest 16 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: today is Andreas Maum, an associate professor of human ecology 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: at Lund University who has thought long and hard about 18 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: how to make the climate movement more effective. He is 19 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: the author of How to Blow Up a Pipeline, where 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: he argues that if the climate movement wants to be successful, 21 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: it must embrace even more radical action, including violence in 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: the form of property destruction, alongside peaceful protests. We have 23 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: to escalate, I mean, will be completely irrelevant if we 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: continue to march dressed in polar bear costumes in twenty 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: thirty five, If, as seems likely to be the case, 26 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: the world is on fire, it's an even greater extent 27 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: then than what it is now. On this week's episode, 28 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: Andreas discusses the moral case for property destruction, why he 29 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: thinks the climate movement can't succeed without it, and whether 30 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: capitalism can survive the end of fossil fields. Andreas, Welcome 31 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: to zero. Thank you so much. Chance. So, in How 32 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: to Blow Up a Pipeline, you argue that no revolution 33 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: throughout history has succeeded without accompanying violence, and that for 34 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: the climate movement to succeed, it needs violent action. But 35 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: violence is a very high threshold to cross. Can you 36 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 1: first make the case why the world is in such 37 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: a dire position that the violence is needed as an antidote. Yeah. 38 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: Let me just first point out that what I argue 39 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: in the book is that we should use property destruction, 40 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: So violence against things. I explicitly say that we should 41 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: not engage in violence against people. We shouldn't aim to 42 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: extinguish lives, but we should aim to extinguish SUVs and 43 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: coal mines and oil pipelines and all the machines that 44 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: are killing people around the world and are affecting should 45 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: real violence against people, Yeah, I mean the dire state 46 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: we're in, it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's 47 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: following the news who's not living under stone. I mean, 48 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: a lot of Pakistan is still underwater as we speak. 49 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: A lot of Nigeria is also submerged under water after 50 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: unprecedented floods. There is a very bad and protracted drought 51 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: crisis on the Horn of Africa, and on and on 52 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: it goes. And all of these extreme weather events that 53 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: we see now are the results of the emissions that 54 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: have accumulated over the past two centuries. What we're experiencing 55 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: this year in twenty twenty two is but a foretaste 56 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: of what is to come. It's a mistake to think that, ah, 57 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: this is what global warming looks like. No, it's not. 58 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: Global warming is hardwired to deteriorate in so far as 59 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: emissions continue, and they do continue. Not only do they continue, 60 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: but what we're experiencing right now after the pandemic and 61 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: the rebound and reinforced by the war in Ukraine, is 62 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: an exceptional profit bonanza for the oil and gas companies 63 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: used to reinvest in even more pipelines, gas terminals, coal mines, 64 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: exactly what we cannot have anymore. So clearly, what the 65 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: climate movement or anyone else for that matter, has done 66 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: so far has been insufficient. We haven't done enough because 67 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: we have come nowhere close to reining in the forces 68 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: that are bent on just pouring more fossil fuels on 69 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: the fire. But dug me through the historical examples that 70 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: you write about in your book, where you say, for 71 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: any large movement there is usually a violent arm that 72 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: is helping bring about change. That it's not always the peaceful, 73 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: the non violent arm, which may be larger, but a small, 74 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: targeted violent arm that also does it. Yeah. So I 75 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,239 Speaker 1: should point out that the discussion of historical cases in 76 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: this book that I wrote is brief and superficial, and 77 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 1: it's formulated in response to a particularly kind of narrative 78 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: that was developed by people in the climate movement. Notably 79 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: extinction rebellion that says that we had these precedents, these 80 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: examples in history where people have successfully defeated injustices through 81 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: exclusively non violent means, and we're going to do the 82 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: same on the climate front. So the cases that are 83 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: usually adduced here are the struggle against slavery in the Americas, 84 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: suffragets on the struggle for women's right to vote, the 85 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: civil rights movement in the US, anti colonial movements with 86 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: a focus on India, the struggle against Apartheide, and various 87 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: democratic revolutions. And if you go through each and one 88 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: of these cases, you see that that isn't exactly what happened. 89 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: There's a lot of peace washing required to establish the 90 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: storyline that there was no militancy, no violent confrontation, no 91 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: property destruction, no riots or anything like that. It was 92 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: just peaceful civil disbeinience I mean slavery to begin with, 93 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: Where should you even start? The historical interpretation of these 94 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: events is biased. To put it mildly, the Suffragets used 95 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: very extensive campaigns of arson and even bombing, and tremendous 96 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: amount of property destruction to fight for the women's right 97 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: to vote. The civil rights movement in the US had 98 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: a very productive relation to a more radical flank in 99 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: the form of urban riots and movements like the Nation 100 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: of Islam and the Black Power movement. This is the 101 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: classical case for the theory of the radical flank. These 102 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: groups made the civil rights mainstream represented by Martin Luther King, 103 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: appear less dangerous in the eyes of the institutions of 104 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: white supremacy, and therefore they were inclined to concede to 105 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: their demands because they knew that unless we do this, 106 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: we'll end up with Malcolm X and stoke the carmac 107 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: on of those people who are ten times worse. The 108 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: various democratic revolutions, including the toppling of the Berlin Wall, 109 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: included property destruction. I mean, people didn't go up to 110 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: the Berlin Wall and caressed the cement. They broke it 111 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: into pieces. So if you look into the evidence, the data, 112 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: which isn't hard to come by, for all of these 113 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: historical cases that the strategic pacifists point to as examples 114 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: and models for how we're going to win the climate battle, 115 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: the narrative falls apart because that's just not what happened. 116 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: Although in these violent cases, even in the places where 117 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: property destruction was the main motive, there were related debts. 118 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: So let's just understand that you are advocating for violence 119 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: against property, not humans. So first, why is it okay 120 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: to do that to property? And second what happens when 121 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: humans are unintentionally harmed in the process. Yeah, so this 122 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: is a very important and tricky question. I mean, morally, 123 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: there is a significant difference between slashing tires of an 124 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: suv and stabbing piercing someone's lungs. I think that's the 125 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: example I use in the book. I mean the moral 126 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: difference between destroying an inanimate objects that doesn't have a life. 127 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: It's something qualitatively different from going after a person with 128 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: a life and ending that life or harming that person deliberately. Now, 129 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: if you want to way to campaign that exclusively targets things, 130 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: not people, you have to have a collective discipline in 131 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: that movement where people agree that we're going to sabotage things, 132 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: We're going to destroy things, but are not harming individual 133 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: human beings. We're not assassinating executives or shooting corps or 134 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: something like that. This kind of collective discipline isn't easy 135 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: to establish, but I don't think it's impossible. We have 136 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: quite a few examples from history and from more contemporary 137 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: periods where that collective discipline has been successfully pursued. There 138 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: were environmental movements that had their own disadvantages in my 139 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: view in the nineteen nineties in the US and elsewhere 140 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: that waged quite methodic, systematical campaigns or properly destruction without 141 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: ever harming human beings. I think the uprising after the 142 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: murder of George Floyd is another example where people in 143 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: the US destroyed a lot of property, including police property, 144 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: and that included riots, but there was a general implicit 145 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: understanding that we're not going to assassinate corps or you know, 146 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: guns and shoot them or something like that. And that's 147 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: not for lack of guns in the US. There's any 148 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: country in the world where you can get hold of 149 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: a gun and shoot a corp is probably in the US. 150 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: But I think the movement new and this collective self 151 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: discipline extended to that gigantic movement that developed in the 152 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: wake of the murder of George Floyd, that was a 153 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: step that shouldn't be taken. And I think that now 154 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: that the climate movement is beginning to experimenting with sabotage 155 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: and discussing it and reflecting on property instruction. There is 156 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: a very strong consensus that it's out of the question 157 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: that we would use arms to physically injure the lives 158 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: of people who engage in fossil fuel extraction or whatever. 159 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: It would be morally wrong and it would also harm 160 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: our cause. Now we've seen a number of high profile 161 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: groups that have taken direct action in the name of 162 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: climate There is a group called the Tire Extinguishers, which 163 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: does not slash tires but deflates them. We have groups 164 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: in the UK like Insulate Britain that stop motorway traffic, 165 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: and Extinction Rebellion has been doing actions that have stopped 166 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: many parts of London from completely operating, including stopping public transport. 167 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: These all get attention and they are succeeding in highlighting 168 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: climate change. You know, there are people who love them, 169 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: they're people who hate them. But are these good examples 170 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: of the kinds of action you'd like to see? Well? 171 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: I advocate a diversity of tactics, which means that I 172 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: think we should try almost everything. Like I said, we 173 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: shouldn't engage in assassinations or terrorism, or use arms or 174 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: anything like that, but until that line or boundary, we 175 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: need virtually everything, which means that we need petitions, we 176 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: need court cases, we need parliamentary campaigns. We need in 177 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: gels and lobbing efforts. We need actions of the time 178 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: that extinction Rebellion has undertaken. We need mass demonstrations, school strikes, 179 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: trade unions, all the way up to sabotage and property destruction. 180 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: That said, and with the greatest respect to everything that 181 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: Extinction Rebellion or XR has accomplished over the past three years, 182 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: I do think that targeting general urban life has a 183 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: particular logic that makes some sense. It attracts a lot 184 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: of attention, but it can also be quite imprecise in 185 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: its targeting of virtually anything and anyone. I think that 186 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: it's more strategically productive to do things such as just 187 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: stop oil, another of these offshoots from XR has done 188 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: when they have blockaded the actual distribution and processing of oil, 189 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,119 Speaker 1: because that is to go to the source of the problem. Likewise, 190 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: I think the tire extinguishers when they deflate SUVs, have 191 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: a high degree of precision because they go after machines 192 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: that are completely pointless and that cause luxury emissions, and 193 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: that's much more effective and politically fruitful than, for instance, 194 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,359 Speaker 1: stopping a subway train, which the x Are did infamously 195 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: in late twenty nineteen in London, which had no political 196 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: logic to it whatsoever. Because that's even part of the solution, 197 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: it's not part of the problem. My personal preferences are 198 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: for mass actions or small group direct actions that target 199 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: fossil fuel infrastructure and machines for luxury emissions with a 200 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: high degree of precision, could you explain the difference between 201 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: luxury and subsistence emissions and why it is okay to 202 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: target one and not the other. Yeah, So the classical 203 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: distinction hereness between emissions that are the outcome of subsistence 204 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: like ativities as in farmers cultivating vice for instance, and 205 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:11,839 Speaker 1: the rice paddies producing methane. You don't attack that because 206 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: these emissions are byproducts of activities that reproduce these humans lives. 207 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: Luxury emissions are emissions that stem from economic activities that 208 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: have no such function. So people who drive SUVs or 209 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: take private jets for seventeen minutes when they could just 210 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: as well have taken public transportation, or who have their 211 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: super yachts or whatever. Don't do this because they wouldn't 212 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: survive otherwise, you know, it's not like their bodies would 213 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: dissolve if they didn't have these machines or commodities. They 214 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: do it primarily to flaunt their wealth. It's part of 215 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: a luxury lifestyle, which means that these emissions are completely pointless. 216 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: But they're all are the most damaging ones because they 217 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: produce these excesses of CO two. So the carbon inequality 218 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: in populations is increasing all the time, where it's you know, 219 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: the distribution of emissions gets more and more skewed, and 220 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: it's more and more concentrated at the top. And these 221 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: emissions would presumably be the first that you take down 222 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: because they can be easily done away with, because no 223 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: one would die from not having to write a super yacht. 224 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: The problem is that governments are beholding to precisely these 225 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: class interests, so they are much much more likely to 226 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: do it the other way around. If they're targeting anyone, 227 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: that's probably working people, because that's usually the people that 228 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: they target. So the climate movement needs to target luxury 229 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: emissions when no one else does. You've participated in direct 230 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: action yourself. In two thousand and six and seven in Sweden. 231 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: You deflated tires of SUVs in twenty sixteen in Germany 232 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: and broke through the fence of a coal power plant, 233 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: which then had to be shut down. Do you think 234 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: those efforts have been more successful than the other, less 235 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: direct or less focused efforts. No, I can't claim that 236 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: there has been any major success on the part of 237 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: these campaigns because they've been extremely limited in scale. We 238 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: don't know yet if sabotage and property destruction will work 239 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: because it hasn't been tried on a significant scale enough. 240 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: I mean, what we do know from the campaign of 241 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: defeating SUVs back in two thousand and seven was that 242 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: it seems to have cost or at least contributed to 243 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: a significant drop in SUV sales in Sweden that year. 244 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: And you see I think similar signs now with the 245 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: tire extinguishers. That you have mainstream outlets such as telegraph 246 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: advising car consumers to not purchase SUVs because then they 247 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: run the risk of waking up in the morning to 248 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: deflated tires. But it needs to happen on a much 249 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: much greater scale for us to know its full effects. 250 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: What I argue in the book is that there is 251 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: a potential here that awaits expiration and activation that we 252 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: should make the most of this tactic. As for the 253 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: tire extinguishers, what's so great about their particular tactic is 254 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: that it's so easy for people to copy it. We 255 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: just need a little bit of courage to go out 256 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: in the cover of the night and deflate SUV tires. 257 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: So that's a type of action that spread very easily, 258 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: and I think we'll continue to do so. You say 259 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: it hasn't been tested at scale, but here is an 260 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: ongoing test right in turning off gas supplies to Europe. 261 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: Russia has in a metaphorical way, if not a literal sense, 262 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: blown up its pipelines to Europe. And what has that done. 263 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: It has brought many European economies to their knees. Sri 264 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: Lanka ran out of petrol and diesel. Okay, there was 265 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: some money problem, but also it was at a time 266 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,959 Speaker 1: when petrol and diesel prices were so high Pakistan couldn't 267 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: buy natural gas that it had built infrastructure to be 268 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: able to provide subsistence emissions, which is real power to 269 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: people who really needed, not luxury emissions. So if we 270 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: do take it to the logical extreme and blow up pipelines. 271 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: If these are the impacts that we will see, how 272 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: do you think people would join such a movement. Yeah, 273 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: but this isn't the first time in history that we 274 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: have oiler price shocks with metaphorical suspension of pipelines. That's 275 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: exactly what we had in nineteen seventy three with the 276 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: first circled oil crisis, or in nineteen seventy nine eighty 277 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: with the second oil crisis with the Iranian revolution, and 278 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: none of these acts, just like with what's happening with 279 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: Putin's pipelines of gas to Europe, had any kind of 280 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: client him, its agenda behind them. And I mean Putin 281 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: isn't doing this because he wants to stop fossil fuel. 282 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: To the contrary, he wants to continue as much as possible. 283 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: And it's virtually a climate denialist as far as I know. 284 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: A climate movement that would shut down fossil fuel infrastructure 285 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: would do it in a completely different kind of political 286 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: context than with another logic and message, and it would 287 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: have to be combined, of course, with a demand to 288 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: roll out solar and wind power at the highest possible 289 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: speed through public investment, and that is the response that 290 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: has to be provided to questions of energy poverty and 291 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: energy crisis that we're seeing unfolding in the world and 292 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: hitting of course poor people primarily. The absurdity here is 293 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: that solar and wind are becoming cheaper and cheaper and 294 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: cheaper year by years, so that in most places around 295 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: the world there are cheaper per unit of energy than 296 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: fossil fuse. However, for big energy companies, that's not an 297 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: incentive to invest in them because the profits are much 298 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: higher in oil and gas. So big big companies such 299 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: as you know, Saudi aramcoor or Xon or BP, what 300 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: they're doing right now is that they're using these high 301 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: profits on fossil fuels that are partly caused by the 302 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: war in Ukraine to invest even further in fossil fuels, 303 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: despite the fact that we have a situation where the 304 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: world economy as a whole would gain strictly financially from 305 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: a complete shift from fossil fuels to renewabooks. And that's 306 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: a perversity of the system that has to be challenged somehow. 307 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: Let's take that and split it open a little bit more. So, 308 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: what's happening right now with the Russia situation is that 309 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: access to fossil fuels has been suddenly cut off. What 310 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: you're suggesting is you would do it in a way 311 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: where you wouldn't have such sudden disruptions, even though blowing 312 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: up a pipeline is a sudden action, so to speak. 313 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 1: But you'd do it strategically such that you are not 314 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: bringing entire economies to the knees. But the driving mantra 315 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: for oil and gas companies, and this is the term 316 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: they themselves invented. It's called the social license to operate. 317 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: They say, we need a social license to operate, and 318 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: currently that license comes from providing energy that the world 319 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: needs and doing it in a way that is cheap 320 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: enough and reliable enough for them to be able to afford. 321 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: The thing that they are worried about is when climate 322 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: change takes the social license to operate out, because people 323 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: know that the products they're using and the emissions that 324 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: are being caused by those products is exactly what's harming 325 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: the world. This is the moment where that social license 326 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: to operate swings back into their favor. You mean this 327 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: moment of the war. Yes, yeah. If they are successful 328 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: in establishing the notion that the only option on the 329 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: table is more fossil fuse, and governments have largely gone 330 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: with that. Early in the war there was a moment 331 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: a little bit similar to early in the pandemic, where 332 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: people thought that, oh, now this might be the big 333 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: opportunity to get rid of fossil fuse, because now it's 334 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: demonstrated to everyone that the reliance on Russian fossil fuels 335 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: has made us vulnerable. So let's just ditch fossil fuels 336 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: and have the transition finally to renewables. It didn't happen 337 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: with the pandemic. It didn't happen with the war, and 338 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: with the war instead, what you've seen is, of course 339 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: countries in Europe trying to replace Russian fossil fuse with 340 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: other kinds of fossil fuse. What you could do is 341 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: you could massively roll out solar and wind, but that 342 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 1: would require public investment on a large scale, and it 343 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: would require a degree of coordination and a degree of coercion. 344 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: You would have to overrule local resistance against certain wind 345 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: projects and stuff like that. There's no technical reason for 346 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: the failure to use the war as a spur to 347 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: the transition. It's a political thing. It's clear that property 348 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: destruction can be viewed as a form of violence. But 349 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: with climate change causing more and more destruction and death, 350 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: why don't we see fossil fuel use as similarly violent. 351 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: That's coming up after the break. Let's talk through one 352 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: thing that you have mentioned in the past that I'd 353 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: love for you to explain in a different way. So 354 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: you're talking about violence against property. Here you explain to 355 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: us the moral case, Like, you know, you shouldn't be 356 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: going out and killing humans, but there are studies that 357 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: show clearly that every million tons of C or two 358 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: that is put out into the atmosphere does kill people. 359 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: So there is a moral act of violence being committed. 360 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: But that moral act of violence isn't seen today as 361 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: a moral act of violence. Why is that? Exactly? This 362 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: is the big problem, or one of the big problems. 363 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: So I think that it's becoming clearer by the day 364 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: that taking up fossil fuels out of the ground and 365 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: putting them on fire is an act of violence. It's 366 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: an act of sending indiscriminately projectiles into the human population, 367 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: blindly hitting primarily civilian populations in the global cut. The 368 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: reason that this isn't yet seen by the broader public 369 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: as the kind of violence that it is is that 370 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: it's mediated through the atmosphere. You will never see a 371 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: fossil fuel executive standing on the top of the Pakistani 372 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: farmer and having his knee on the neck of someone 373 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: in the way that Derek Chovin had his body on 374 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: top of George Floyd in a kind of immediate body 375 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: to body, direct hands on violence. Violence in a warming 376 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: world is filter, is mediated through the atmosphere, and it 377 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: hits people at a great distance away from the sources 378 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: of extraction and combustion, and therefore it's very difficult to 379 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: see it for what it is. The task for the 380 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: climate movement is to make clear for people that these 381 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: are acts of violence. Building new pipelines today, a new 382 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: gas terminals, opening new oil fields, or acts of violence 383 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: that need to be stopped. They kill people. We know that, 384 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: and it's it's again. You have to be aware that 385 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: it's we are at a different point in history. So 386 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: doing these things one hundred years ago might not have 387 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: caused a lot of harm because the atmosphere wasn't yet 388 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: filled with seal two. Now that it's filled, it's over 389 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: filled with seal two. Adding more C two to the 390 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: atmosphere means you're doing direct harm to people and other 391 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: forms of life. Now, the other thing that has made 392 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: a big difference is that the climate movement has been 393 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: growing in number, and that's for many reasons. There's better organizing, 394 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,719 Speaker 1: there's better connection of science to an extreme weather event, 395 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: there's obviously more awareness of the impact. But also when 396 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: somebody goes out and does an action, it emboldens other 397 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 1: people to join that movement. Most of that, however, just 398 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: because of the nature of movements as they have existed 399 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: so far, has been through non violence. But what you 400 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: are suggesting is property damage, and that is a violent activity. Now, 401 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: I struggle with the idea of joining a protest at all, 402 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: and I definitely will struggle with one where I knew 403 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: that there's going to be some sort of property damage involved. 404 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: And so, how do you think this movement will grow 405 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: if violence or property damage is supposed to be one 406 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: central tenet? Yeah, So, first of all, I emphasize in 407 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: the book, and I hope I've made a clear elsewhere too, 408 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: that the bulk of all activities to the climate movement 409 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: undertakes will continue to be non violent in nature. That 410 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: has to be the case. Question is should we add 411 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: something more to our arsenal, And I think there's a 412 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: case to be made for that, including that some people 413 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: would be more maybe not you, maybe not me, but 414 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: some people would be more inclined to join if there 415 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: was a greater moment of antagonism and militancy. And I 416 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: do think that the climate movement needs to be better 417 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: at articulating anger as a key emotion in climate politics. 418 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: I think obviously there's a great risk that sabotage, property 419 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: destruction in any form will deter people, and that's one 420 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: reason why we need to be careful and intelligent about 421 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: what kind of sabotage we're undertaking. So we're not going 422 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: to blow up a pipeline in the middle of a 423 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, Latino community in Houston that accidentally sets 424 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: on fire houses and people have to flee or something 425 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: like that. That would be very bad thing to do. 426 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: But there might be other kinds of fossil fuel installations, 427 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: including you know, just the other week and now, speaking 428 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: about what happened in August in Germany, you had in 429 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: the Gillende going into a site where a gas pipeline 430 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: was under construction, and conducting quite extensive sabotage against that site. 431 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: And I think that is something that can be explained 432 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: to people and people can make sense of it, because 433 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: it's clear that this is precisely the kind of installations 434 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: that we can't have any more of. So it depends 435 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: on how you do it. Right now, you can imagine 436 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: that one act of property destruction can lead to another 437 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: act of violence, so and aggravated ASUV driver whose tires 438 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: have been deflated might end up being more aggressive to 439 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: cyclists on their road, or if you're in the US, 440 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: there's a very real danger of getting shot because guns 441 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: are so easy to come by, And of course there 442 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: is the sort of reaction that state power brings in 443 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: where harsh sentences are given to protesters and activists. Do 444 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: you think these are just inadvitable consequences of what you're 445 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: proposing and that we should just be ready for them, 446 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: well to an extent in the sense that I don't 447 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: know that history can generate a single example of the 448 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: movement that has challenged deeply entrenched interests without having to 449 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: grapple with the problem of repression from state apparatusis and 450 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: various kinds of backlash from people who are deeply invested 451 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: in the status quo. That's part of the game that 452 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: we're playing here, and we can't really run away from it. However, 453 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that we should be sanguine or cynical 454 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: about this and say that inevitably people will be shot 455 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: by infuriated suv owners, so let's just go with it, 456 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: or sooner or later we'll all end up in jail. 457 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: We should try to minimize this kind of reaction and 458 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: minimize the harm that it can do to the movement 459 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: that begins. I think with the break with the idea 460 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: that part of climate activism is to get arrested and 461 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: stand trial and subject yourself to repression, and that's part 462 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: of the classical civil disobedience protocol. You know that once 463 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: you've done your action, you also allow yourself to be arrested, 464 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: and you make your case in the court, and you 465 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: assume responsibility for what you've done by doing your prison 466 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: and sentence or something like that. I really think that 467 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: we've had enough of that and that we should from 468 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: the climate movement instead think of it this way. We 469 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: want to accomplish as much as possible ball with as 470 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: little repression as possible. So it's a much better gain 471 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: or a much better win for us if we managed 472 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: to shut down a coal fired power plant or something 473 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: like that with zero activists being arrested. That's not going 474 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: to guarantee, of course, that we will always out with 475 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: the courts. No, we won't. If we're in a running 476 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: battle with an existing, deeply entrenched social order. Yes, people 477 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: will suffer costs. That's what social struggle means virtually by definition, 478 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: if it's a real confrontation that shakes things up properly. 479 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: So we are seeing a significant backlash to the existing 480 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: non violent protests in the UK. The Police and Crime Bill, 481 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: which was strendened in twenty twenty two, provide specific provisions 482 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: that tackle protests like extinction rebellion to block traffic and 483 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: can put people into jail for ten years if laws 484 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: are broken. If we go down the property instruction route, 485 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: I'd real likely to see more politicians and more of 486 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: the status quo campaigning on law and order to bring 487 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: in even stricter punishment. That's what always happened when you escalate. Yes, 488 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: so if you go from just nice demonstrations to civil 489 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: disobedience of the XR kind, you will have these more 490 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: punitive laws that you see if you take the next 491 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: step and go into sambotage and property destruction, yes there 492 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: will also be tougher sanctions. But this is how the 493 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: vested interests of business as usual or the prevailing order 494 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: always react to challenges. We cannot from that draw the 495 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: conclusion that we have to opt for tactic that doesn't 496 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: incure the wrath of the existing structure, because that means 497 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: basically staying at home or not posing any danger to 498 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: the system. As soon as you do pose a danger 499 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: to the system, this is what you'll get in return, 500 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: and that's a sign that you're doing something good, that 501 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: you're actually challenging some interests. Now, I do think that 502 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: when we're looking at the climate crisis, we need to 503 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: take into account that this crisis will only get worse 504 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: and we have to escalate. I mean, will be completely 505 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: irrelevant if we continue to march dressed in polarbial costumes 506 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: in twenty thirty five, like within the nineteen ninety five, If, 507 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: as seems likely to be the case, the world is 508 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: on fire, it's an even greater extent then than what 509 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: it is now. Also, I think that the social license 510 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: for repression against climate activists, if you see what I mean, 511 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: will inevitably undergo some kind of change the worst this 512 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: crisis becomes. At least, that's what you have to hope, 513 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: if there's any rationality left in the species and in 514 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: our societies, that people will have a greater degree of 515 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: understanding and sympathy with climate activists who are fighting against 516 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: spiraling death. In the book, you tell the story of 517 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: two climate workers, Jessica Rasnichick and Ruby Montoya, who sabotaged 518 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: the Dakota Access Pipeline in twenty sixteen. Now, Resnichick has 519 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: been sentenced to eight years in jail with a terrorism enhancement. 520 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: Do you think it was worth it? Yeah, obviously. I 521 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: think she's a heroine and I have the greatest respect 522 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: for her. Now, it's a very complicated legal case, with 523 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: a lot of back and forth and the infiltration and 524 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,959 Speaker 1: FBI and collaboration of things like that. I'm not fully 525 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 1: up to date with the latest twists in the story, 526 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 1: but anyway, what we know is that these two activists 527 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: ran up and down the Dakota Access Pipeline and destroyed 528 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: as much of it as they could. Then they ended 529 00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: their campaign, and after a while they decided to give 530 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: themselves in and went public with their act to inspire 531 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: others and let themselves be arrested. That's one way of 532 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: doing it. Another way of doing it is what people 533 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: did in British Columbia in late February twenty twenty two, 534 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: when you had twenty activists storming a site where the 535 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: coastal gas link pipeline was being constructed in the wet 536 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: Suit and First Nation territory, and they chased the way 537 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: guards and took over the site and used trucks and 538 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: bulldozers to smash every equipment that they could. When the 539 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: police came to the site, they kept the police away 540 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: until they were all gone, these activists, and they had 541 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: also destroyed methodically all video surveillance cameras, so there was 542 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: no evidence of who had done this, and as far 543 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: as I know, not a single of these twenty activists 544 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 1: has been arrested. That's another way of approaching this problem 545 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: of having a very high profile action of property destruction 546 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: and then making sure that no one is arrested, and 547 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: to me, that's more productive. I talked to the novelist 548 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 1: Amitav Koch, who you probably know, who's written nonfiction books 549 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: about climate change, and we were talking about your book 550 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: and he said this which has stayed with me. He said, 551 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: if you and I, as brown people were to get 552 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: involved in property damage, imagine what would happen. And honestly, 553 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: it was a scary thought. And the more I've thought 554 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: about it, the more I've been scared. Because I came 555 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: to the UK as an immigrant. I was on a 556 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: visa working in organizations where my visa was tied to 557 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: my work. And you know, even if I was not brown, 558 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: I would still be very careful, and I was, and 559 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: I've always been very careful about making sure everything is 560 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 1: done right because I never want to be caught out 561 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: as doing something wrong. You know, I'm a journalist. Another 562 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: reason why you have to do it so to do 563 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: anything of this level of disruption in a public setting 564 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 1: is it's so hard for me to appreciate how much 565 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 1: courage it takes that I fear it's not enough. I 566 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: don't know if people understand why they should even be 567 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: taking this step. So you're talking about brown or non 568 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: white people in the global North. Yes, so, yes, I 569 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: mean I get your point, but I think this situation 570 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: here is very complicated and it has a lot of 571 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: different answers to First of all, if we're looking at Europe, 572 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: it's not exactly the case that racialized communities are the 573 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: most adverse to various kinds of political violence. If you 574 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: look at France, for instance, or my own country, Sweden, 575 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 1: when riots happen, if they happen at all, I mean, 576 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: in Sweden, rioting is an extremely rare phenomenon. But if 577 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: anyone is ever rioting, it's non white people. And why 578 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: is that because at the bottom of the pile, and 579 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:07,439 Speaker 1: they are angry about being systematically discriminated against. So it's 580 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: not like political violence in Sweden or in France or 581 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: anywhere else in Europe is some kind of a white 582 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: privilege or a white monopoly. And I also think that 583 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: the relation to the cops here is it's more like 584 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: the other way around. In Extinction rebellion in twenty nineteen, 585 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: in its first iteration was extremely cop positive. If you 586 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: if you know what I mean. You know, they would 587 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: send flowers to the police and say we're doing this 588 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: for the you two and stuff like that. And if 589 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: anyone got upset about that, it was non white people 590 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 1: who would argue that no people from racialized communities would 591 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: would you know, love bomb the police the way you do, 592 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: you're really telling us that this is not a movement 593 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,399 Speaker 1: for people who are systematically harassed by the police. On 594 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: the other hand, of course, there is something to it 595 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: that certain people can engage in more high profile, provocative 596 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: political actions than others and risk less consequence. I mean, 597 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: I think me, being a white man, even just saying 598 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: and writing those things, is a way for me to 599 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: use a privilege. I also happened to be an academic 600 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: with a tenure position, so I have a relatively secure 601 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: employment situation, and I'm more or less intentionally use this 602 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,879 Speaker 1: privilege to say and write things that would have been 603 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: much more difficult for a non white woman in a 604 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: precarious working situation. Is that me exercising my privilege? Yes, 605 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: it is. But sometimes this is the way that you 606 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: should exercise your privilege. I think. So if some of 607 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,879 Speaker 1: us can say or do things and get away with it, 608 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: I don't see why that is necessarily wrong in and 609 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: of itself. So it's a it's a complicated picture, but 610 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: I don't I don't think it's the case that this 611 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: is only for white people. No, I don't think you 612 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: were once asked about the fact that is it only 613 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: possible to win in the climate freight by overthrowing capitalism, 614 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: and you said, no, do you still think that. I 615 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: think that what we know is that it's by definition 616 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: impossible to get the climate classes under any kind of 617 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: control and limit its damage without abolishing, forever for good, 618 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: the part of the capitalist class that profits from the 619 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: production of fosil fuse. So we can't have that. We 620 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: cannot have private property and fossil fuse. We cannot have 621 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: capital accumulation based on the extraction of fosiph fuse. Does 622 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: that mean that when we accomplish that, capitalism as an 623 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: entire mode of production also goes out of existence. That 624 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: I don't think we can know for sure. I think 625 00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: it's logically conceivable to have capitalism without fossil use. However, 626 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 1: if we're actually abolishing this core of fossil capital that 627 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: profits from fossil fuse, we are setting in motion social 628 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:20,280 Speaker 1: processes that might there will take us beyond the existing 629 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: economic system or political order. We talked a little bit 630 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: about anger, and you said the climate movement needs to 631 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:34,439 Speaker 1: get better at understanding it, at exploring it, at expressing it. 632 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: But anger in society manifests in terrible ways because simmering 633 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: anger has health consequences, has physical health consequences, has mental 634 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: health consequences. But as a tool it can be used 635 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 1: for good. So what has been through your exploration of 636 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: these topics of of anger, which I feel like is 637 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: one thing that you have been trying to articulate for 638 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 1: the climate movement that you think is the right way 639 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: to understand anger and use anger. Well, I think the 640 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: deleterious effect of anger come primarily when anger is you know, 641 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: bolted up and kept on the inside and not given 642 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: any kind of vent to. That's when people suffer from it, really. 643 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: But when you have some kind of an outlet for anger, 644 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 1: and an outlet that is legitimate and justified, then that's 645 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: I think beneficial way of dealing with that emotion. It's 646 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: helpful for the people who have that emotion. And I 647 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: also think that in the case of climate, a lot 648 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: of people feel despair, hopelessness, paralysis, fear, and other kinds 649 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: of emotions that are demobili thing and that tend to 650 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:07,240 Speaker 1: produce anguish and exciting and the alternative often is anger. 651 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,359 Speaker 1: Because we know from psychological research that if there's any 652 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: emotion that fuels social mobilization. It's anger, be it the 653 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,840 Speaker 1: uprising after the murder of George Floyd, or the Me 654 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: Too movement, or the Yellow Vests, or the struggle against 655 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: slavery or whatever. Anger is normally the psychic fuel of 656 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: the movements of that sort. So this is the emotion 657 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: that the climate movement also needs to learn to give 658 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: voice too, and we haven't seen that at scale yet. 659 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 1: It's still in the future. Thank you. There was a 660 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: wonderful conversation. Thank you. I appreciate. One thing is clear, 661 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: rewiring the world to run on clean energy will need creativity. 662 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,320 Speaker 1: A political movement, whether it is based on an ideology 663 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: you agree with or not, is the perfect poopore for 664 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:13,760 Speaker 1: shaking things up. Thanks so much for listening to Zero. 665 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate, review, and subscribe 666 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify, Tell a friend, or 667 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: paint it on your nearest pipeline. If you've got a 668 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,759 Speaker 1: suggestion for a guest or topic or something you just 669 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: want us to look into, get in touch at Zero 670 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd 671 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: and senior producer is Christine riscoll Our. Theme music is 672 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: composed by Wonderlely. Many people help make Zero a success. 673 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,480 Speaker 1: This week a special thanks to podcast producer Magnus Hendrickson, 674 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: who helps us rest easy by canceling unnecessary meetings. We're 675 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: going to be off for the next couple of weeks 676 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: for the New Year's happy holidays, and thanks for listening 677 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: to Zero in twenty twenty two. I'm Akshatrati. See you 678 00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:03,799 Speaker 1: in the new year. The Ett