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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan.

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Speaker 1: Never told your protective I heard you, and.

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Speaker 2: Yea, we are so excited to welcome back. All Right,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to list these off, and I know

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna miss up. Award winning activist, writer, journalist, podcaster,

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Speaker 2: one of the Times Women of the Year, and friend

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Speaker 2: of the show obviously, Raquel Willis, welcome back.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on. It's good to be back.

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Speaker 2: Congrats are the well deserved, hard earned title of all

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Speaker 2: the things, but including Times Women of the Year.

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Speaker 4: Hello, yeah, I mean it's it's been a wild year.

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Speaker 4: So it's actually interesting because they named me one of

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Speaker 4: Time's Women of the Year and then like a few

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Speaker 4: weeks later, we're like, we all someone to name me

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Speaker 4: to the Time one hundred and I was like, okay, sure,

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Speaker 4: let's just get it all out of the way this

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Speaker 4: year and leave nothing for the rest of my life.

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Speaker 2: Nothing for the rest of my life, I know, honestly,

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Speaker 2: like just the fact that I'm much older than you

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Speaker 2: and you have all of these accolades, I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 2: really behind. But also I love being able to say

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Speaker 2: I know her, so you know it feels like I

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Speaker 2: won just by being able to do that.

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Speaker 5: So thank you for letting me do that as well.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, these honors are great and amazing,

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Speaker 4: and I know they add a lot of shine, but

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Speaker 4: you know they can never capture all of the work

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Speaker 4: that's happening, right, So Samantha, like, we're going to reframe

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Speaker 4: this and just say they just got like a little

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Speaker 4: snippet of amazing folks out there and they're coming back

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Speaker 4: for you.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Okay, I'm gonna take that in.

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Speaker 2: But just know, yes, I'm really glad to see that

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Speaker 2: you are getting the flowers while you can, because I

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Speaker 2: know as part of your journey in podcasting as well

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Speaker 2: as obviously a journalism, is to talk about those who

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Speaker 2: didn't get the flowers when they were alive.

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Speaker 5: And you've been a very, very busy woman.

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Speaker 2: So thank you once again for coming on to our show,

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Speaker 2: our little tiny show. We're so excited to have you

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Speaker 2: back on. But just in case we have some new listeners,

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Speaker 2: can you tell them a bit about yourself?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 4: Can I also say I'm thinking and I think I've

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Speaker 4: been on stuff Mom never told you, like more than

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Speaker 4: maybe any other podcast because This is like maybe my

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Speaker 4: third or fourth time being on since every kind of

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Speaker 4: iteration of it. So shout out to y'all for loving

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Speaker 4: on your girl and bringing her on.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, so I'm rockel Willis.

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Speaker 4: I am all of the things that Samantha just said, writer, activists,

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Speaker 4: a bunch of things. Much of my work focuses on

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Speaker 4: black trans power and liberation. And I know some folks

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Speaker 4: are like, oh, okay, well, maybe this has nothing to

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Speaker 4: do with me, but no, honey, it has everything to

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Speaker 4: do with you, because I feel like all of our

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Speaker 4: liberation is bound up in each other, so you know,

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Speaker 4: through storytelling, through social justice and direct action. I'm always

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Speaker 4: interested in how we can tell more nuanced, fuller stories

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Speaker 4: of the lives of people on the margins.

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Speaker 1: And we absolutely love that and are happy to have

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Speaker 1: you on anytime. And the last time you were here,

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Speaker 1: you were talking about your really amazing book is just

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Speaker 1: absolutely fantastic, and your latest podcast, which you have a

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Speaker 1: second season coming out now, so what can we expect

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Speaker 1: in season two?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank y'all again for having me.

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Speaker 4: When I was talking about my memoir The Risk It

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Speaker 4: Takes to Bloom, What a time that was, What a

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Speaker 4: tour I had but yees. So we're back with season

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Speaker 4: two of Afterlives. This series is really all about the

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Speaker 4: lives and legacies of trans folks that we've lost too

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Speaker 4: soon to so many different systems, so many different dynamics.

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Speaker 4: The first season delved into the story of Leilee and Polanco.

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Speaker 4: So she was a twenty seven year old trans Afro

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Speaker 4: Latina who died in Riker's custody, and we told her

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Speaker 4: story through the movements that she inspired.

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Speaker 3: She was a part of ballroom culture.

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Speaker 4: She was someone who inspired after her death, the fight

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Speaker 4: for ending solitary confinement in New York, decriminalizing sex work,

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Speaker 4: and so much more. And so the second season we

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Speaker 4: were like, Okay, how can we go bigger?

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Speaker 3: And we went about as big as.

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Speaker 4: You can go and wanting to delve into the life

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Speaker 4: of Marsha P.

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Speaker 3: Johnson.

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Speaker 4: So if you don't know who Marsha P. Johnson is,

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Speaker 4: you know, well, we're going to get you caught up.

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Speaker 4: She is a movement for mother for the LGBTQ plus movement.

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Speaker 4: There are a lot of myths and legends about her,

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Speaker 4: that she was on the ground the nights of the

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Speaker 4: Stonewall riots, and that she threw the first brick, and

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Speaker 4: so that there's actually an episode this season where we

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Speaker 4: kind of unpack that what's true, what's real. But we

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Speaker 4: also wanted to get into her humanity. And I know

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Speaker 4: this very well now. I mean, we were just talking

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Speaker 4: about these time honors, but I think there's a way

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Speaker 4: that when we start putting people on a pedestal, we

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Speaker 4: start throwing out these terms like legend and iconic, in

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Speaker 4: some way we kind of trip them of their complexity

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Speaker 4: or of their humanity, like we forget that, No, they're

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Speaker 4: just living and breathing and messy and having, you know,

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Speaker 4: all types of love and romantic experiences. And so that

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Speaker 4: was kind of the humanity we wanted to bring back

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Speaker 4: to Marsia. And I'm so excited for folks to hear

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Speaker 4: this season.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I was listening to the first episode,

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Speaker 2: that was something that you did talk about a lot

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Speaker 2: about having to bring back humanity to see her struggle,

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Speaker 2: to see the beauty in her struggle as well as

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Speaker 2: beauty in her legend and the things that she did

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Speaker 2: in her activism.

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Speaker 5: And you did a great.

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Speaker 2: Job in narrating her story in such an empathetic and

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Speaker 2: again human way. Why do you think this is so

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Speaker 2: important when it comes to talking about as I would say,

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Speaker 2: iconic and legendary person as Marsha.

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Speaker 4: I think it's important because we get a different kind

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Speaker 4: of less and when we give that humanity back, you know,

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Speaker 4: when we put people on these pedestals, I think it

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Speaker 4: can kind of detach us in a way where we're like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 4: what is my part in all of this? Because I'm

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Speaker 4: never going to live up to that, And it's like,

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Speaker 4: that's not actually what it's about. It's actually about us

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Speaker 4: giving ourselves grace for our humanity, for the mistakes we

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Speaker 4: may have made, and also understanding that we can have

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Speaker 4: major impact simply by living in authenticity.

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Speaker 3: And that's one.

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Speaker 4: Thing that I hope we really kind of drive home

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Speaker 4: for folks in an effective way with the season.

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Speaker 3: I love the parts of Marcia's.

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Speaker 4: Story that I didn't know right, Like I didn't know

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Speaker 4: much about her family life growing up, that she was

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Speaker 4: always kind of this eccentric character, that she always had

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Speaker 4: a love of performance. We got to talk to her

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Speaker 4: sister Jeanie and her nephew Al who she babysat when

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Speaker 4: he was a kid, which is like you got babysat

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Speaker 4: by Marsha P. Johnson, and there's this beautiful story that

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Speaker 4: they tell about her being a part of this choir.

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Speaker 3: I won't give all the details, but that she was

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Speaker 3: never a.

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Speaker 4: Great singer, but somehow in her charisma, her offbeat singing

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Speaker 4: made people really feel.

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Speaker 3: A sense of warmth and love from her.

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Speaker 4: And so I just love like those little anecdotes that

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Speaker 4: she was always kind of marching to the beat of

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Speaker 4: her own drum and somehow that brought people in right.

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Speaker 2: And I think there's something that we don't talk enough about,

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Speaker 2: especially when it comes to activists and people who really

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Speaker 2: were the beginning of movements, is the mental health capacity

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Speaker 2: and some of the struggles which you hit at Bay beginning.

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Speaker 2: You were like, Okay, we can't talk about this without acknowledge.

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Speaker 2: She had some struggles when it came to mental health,

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Speaker 2: and they're not shameful, but she was never necessarily ashamed

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Speaker 2: of it either. She just said, this is what it is.

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Speaker 2: Why I go back and forth, because there's so much

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Speaker 2: need in trying to open up that level of conversations

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Speaker 2: that we're not demonizing this at the same time, we're

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Speaker 2: also not using this as an excuse and I feel

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Speaker 2: like you're opening this dialogue up in an amazing way.

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Speaker 2: What can we expect in this level of understanding when

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Speaker 2: it comes to talking about mental health, especially with Marsha.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the beautiful things

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Speaker 4: that we get to do in this time is that

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Speaker 4: we can look back at, say, someone like Marcia who

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Speaker 4: died over thirty years ago now and look at other

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Speaker 4: elements of their life and be able to maybe understand

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Speaker 4: them in ways that people.

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Speaker 3: At the time couldn't.

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Speaker 4: And so we've had a whole revolution and talking about

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Speaker 4: mental health in the last at least decade that I

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Speaker 4: think really is beneficial because we can look at Marsha,

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Speaker 4: who was someone who had moments that she considered to

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Speaker 4: be breakdowns. She had moments where she was institutionalized due

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Speaker 4: to her mental health struggles, and there was never any

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Speaker 4: kind of official diagnosis or anything, which I also think

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Speaker 4: is beautiful too, because sometimes we don't have to have

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Speaker 4: that kind of perfect label for it. We can just

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Speaker 4: understand that the difficulties of life really can make it

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Speaker 4: impossible for everything to be perfect and flawless and smooth,

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Speaker 4: and that's okay.

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Speaker 3: And even though she had these.

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Speaker 4: Moments with difficulties around mental health, she still had a

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Speaker 4: commitment to making the world better, to being a beacon

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Speaker 4: and a pillar of her community. Was still committed to

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Speaker 4: being an artist. I mean, she was a person who

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Speaker 4: performed on stage. I didn't know before we worked on

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Speaker 4: the series that she was She went to perform out

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Speaker 4: in London, right, So like she wasn't just performing here

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Speaker 4: in the States, but like she got to travel internationally,

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Speaker 4: and so that also just kind of added more of

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Speaker 4: a dimension to the impact that she had and the

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Speaker 4: and the large life that she lived.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, I didn't realize that she would international either

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Speaker 2: a whole different I wonder, Oh, I wonder are you

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Speaker 2: going to be tackling.

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Speaker 5: Those specific performances outside.

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Speaker 3: We will.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we have some great deep dives there. I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 4: hopefully my production team isn't like, girl, you're giving away

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Speaker 4: too much.

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Speaker 5: But you know, that's a hints. We gotta get some

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Speaker 5: hints while you're here.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: I think that that's just a beautiful thing for folks

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Speaker 4: to know that Marcia did travel, did have stints and

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Speaker 4: places outside of New York. She was born in New Jersey, right,

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Speaker 4: So she wasn't initially a New Yorker. She kind of

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Speaker 4: became a New Yorker, which I think is kind of

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Speaker 4: that quintessential story. It is like you leave home for

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Speaker 4: a lot of folks and go to the big city,

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Speaker 4: not even just New York. You know, we talk about

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Speaker 4: Atlanta so much because that's so near and dear to

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Speaker 4: our hearts, and y'all are based there. But leaving and

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Speaker 4: going to that big city and trying to figure out

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Speaker 4: who you are in a different context like that was

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Speaker 4: also a part of Marcia's story too.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that.

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Speaker 2: And just kind of like, going on with the first

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Speaker 2: episode of the podcast, you say something that feels like

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Speaker 2: it's both obvious but also not said enough or untold

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Speaker 2: that trans people have always been here, And I think

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Speaker 2: that's statement is both small.

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Speaker 5: But huge, and.

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Speaker 2: It just feels like with the things we learned about Marcia,

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Speaker 2: because again, she kind of has been put in a box,

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Speaker 2: like I knew her as and it was recently, like

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Speaker 2: you were talking about, you know, you didn't know a

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Speaker 2: lot of history until you got to college or you

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Speaker 2: you know, for me, honestly was as I was trying

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Speaker 2: to become a podcaster in this specific field, intersectional feminism,

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Speaker 2: that I was figuring out all of these historical figures

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Speaker 2: such as Marcia, and I was like, oh, wow, so

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Speaker 2: let's talk about Stonewall because I knew of it, but

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Speaker 2: didn't know much of it. But when it comes to

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Speaker 2: things like this talking about trans people have always been here.

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Speaker 2: What makes the statement so important and relevant today?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I want to hone in on what you shared.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I am the first to tell folks like

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Speaker 4: I didn't know so much about trans experience, you know,

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Speaker 4: until I was in the thick of it, honey.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that's true for a lot of us.

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Speaker 4: Rights not until you have these moments in life that

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Speaker 4: kind of push you to expand more, to learn more,

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Speaker 4: to seek out information, to make sense of what you're absorbing.

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Speaker 3: And I grew up in small town Augusta, Georgia.

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Speaker 4: You know, so I was also in this context in

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Speaker 4: the late nineties early two thousands where it was still

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Speaker 4: very taboo to talk about any type of queerness. I

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Speaker 4: grew up very Catholic and religious, and so I definitely

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Speaker 4: was not getting maybe the education I needed around who

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Speaker 4: I was going to be in the world. And I

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Speaker 4: think Marcia and the history that's kind of attached to

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Speaker 4: her like the Stonewall riots, this kind of history of

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Speaker 4: clear resistance and activism was like a bomb for me,

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Speaker 4: for someone who felt.

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Speaker 3: So different, so othered for so long.

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Speaker 4: It felt in a way like coming home spiritually to

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Speaker 4: this person that now I consider one of my chosen ancestors.

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Speaker 4: So I think that it was really important to be

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Speaker 4: candid about that that there's always an opportunity for us

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Speaker 4: to learn.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to feel like you're late to the

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Speaker 3: ball game.

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Speaker 4: I guess, And also in this time, it's important for

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Speaker 4: us to be clear that trans and gender nonconforming and

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Speaker 4: non binary folks.

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Speaker 3: Have always been here.

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Speaker 4: You know, we're facing a moment where we have this

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Speaker 4: authoritarian figure and this regime back in power, and Trump

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Speaker 4: is really pushing this idea that trans people and intersects

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Speaker 4: people and anybody with kind of a more marginalized experience,

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Speaker 4: that we don't exist. You know, we're facing attacks on

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Speaker 4: all sides, whether it's queer and trans people facing restrictions

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Speaker 4: around access to healthcare, or it's these DEI discussions right

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Speaker 4: where they're trying to strip not just queer and trans people,

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Speaker 4: but folks of color and women from their rightful positions

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Speaker 4: and their professions and in their careers. So it's important

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Speaker 4: for us to tell the truth about these marginalized experiences

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Speaker 4: in this time because that's a part of our radical defiance, right,

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Speaker 4: we have to defy this idea that we don't exist.

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Speaker 4: And I think, as a trans person, I just want.

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Speaker 3: To be a bridge. You know.

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Speaker 4: I know that there are a lot of young trans

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Speaker 4: people out there who are seeing these attacks and wondering, well.

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Speaker 3: What does this mean for them?

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Speaker 4: But they need to know that there were folks that

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Speaker 4: were fighting an even grizzlier and more difficult times, who

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Speaker 4: were fighting in advance for them, who were loving them

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Speaker 4: in advance. And I just want to use my work

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Speaker 4: to be a bridge so that they know that their

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Speaker 4: footsteps that we can walk in.

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Speaker 2: That's beautiful. I'm gonna neath that quilted somewhere because that's

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Speaker 2: I'm just write that down if I forget, because that's

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Speaker 2: such an amazing concept, and especially with the work that

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Speaker 2: you do, with the work that you've been doing, and

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Speaker 2: as loud as you have been for this type of advocacy,

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Speaker 2: which I feel like with what makes people like you

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Speaker 2: and Marsha so iconic, I'm gonna use that term in

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Speaker 2: that because there there is willingness to be that example.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's such a tough role to play in general,

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Speaker 2: and especially today as we are navigating such interesting spaces

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Speaker 2: with but like social media and the Internet and AI

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Speaker 2: and all of that, Like there's it feels so much

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Speaker 2: bigger and so sometimes harder to try to dispel some

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Speaker 2: of the misinformation and mis representation that's out there. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I first of all, thank you, and uh I love

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Speaker 2: I look.

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Speaker 5: I love looking up do you. Even though I'm so

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Speaker 5: much older than you, I'm like.

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Speaker 3: I want to be I'm so much older.

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Speaker 2: I am so much older and I feel it today especially, but.

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Speaker 5: But you don't think so.

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Speaker 4: But that's one of the beautiful things I think, especially

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Speaker 4: in like queer and trans community, is that you know,

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Speaker 4: age is a little different from us because people come

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Speaker 4: into their identities at different points in life, which means

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Speaker 4: they come into different information and understandings of the world

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Speaker 4: at different points in their lives. Right. I mean, I

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Speaker 4: have people you know who are elder who are like

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Speaker 4: thanking me, and I'm like, no, no, thank you, because.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't be able to do what I do.

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Speaker 4: Without the blocks of the foundation that you put down

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Speaker 4: for me.

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Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because as many cyclical things that

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Speaker 2: as we have seen, it feels so disappointing, especially again

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Speaker 2: with this administration because it's definitely cyclical, but seeing all

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Speaker 2: of the people who are younger than me doing the

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Speaker 2: significant work, feeling that hope, this is the hope that

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad that I continue to learn so much

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Speaker 2: more through other people and again like the generations after

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Speaker 2: me and I'm learning from y'all.

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Speaker 5: I'm like, yes, I need more of this.

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Speaker 2: I've been missing out and feeling again, like even with

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Speaker 2: all the darkest things that we see, feeling all the

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Speaker 2: fear and seeing the protests and seeing all of the

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Speaker 2: you know, demonizing of just good people, to see the

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Speaker 2: goodness in people who are fighting that really does bring

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Speaker 2: so much hope in this in this time. So yes,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna keep talking about how amazing I think you are.

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Speaker 5: Because I love it.

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Speaker 2: But I also have to talk about the fact that

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Speaker 2: you brought up something that made me me laugh in

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Speaker 2: that episode, because any and I have talked about this before,

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Speaker 2: but you talked about your tumbler I wrote in college,

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Speaker 2: which reminded me because Aye and I have talked about this.

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Speaker 5: I had an old zenga. This is pre tumblr, did.

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Speaker 4: You Yeah, I was in high school, but I or

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Speaker 4: middle in high school, I had a.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't find mine, I think because it shut down.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, but it made me think of all the

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Speaker 2: things that I had lost, and I'm like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I kind of wish I could be able to read it,

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Speaker 2: just to be embarrassed of it myself. But I had

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Speaker 2: to ask, what made you think of these old posts

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Speaker 2: and why did you want to.

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Speaker 5: Share it with listeners? And I'm really glad you did.

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Speaker 4: By the way, Well, I have to give so much

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Speaker 4: love to our production team, I mean, Dylan Hoyer, Joey

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Speaker 4: pat Julia Furlan, and so many others. Really, this season

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Speaker 4: wanted to use this as an opportunity to to kind

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Speaker 4: of get more meta and get more into the process

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Speaker 4: of what it is like for me to revisit these stories,

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Speaker 4: and particularly the story of someone I considered it to

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Speaker 4: be a north Star like Marsha, And so as we

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Speaker 4: were kind of planning the season, you know, one of

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Speaker 4: the questions they had for me because it kind of

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Speaker 4: had to interview me so that we could put more

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Speaker 4: of myself into the narrative was when did you first

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Speaker 4: hear about Marcia? And I kind of talked about the

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Speaker 4: impact of the internet, you know, and thinking about what

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Speaker 4: I probably read about her first on like a Wikipedia

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Speaker 4: page in like the late two thousands, but it probably

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Speaker 4: really wasn't until I made it to college, was studying.

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Speaker 4: I was in women's studies classes, meeting queer and trans

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Speaker 4: community in a real way for the first time, and

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Speaker 4: we were all connecting on Tumblr.

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Speaker 3: And Tumblr was like.

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Speaker 4: That era where people would throw out social justice warrior

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Speaker 4: as like a slur, right, So like for those of

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Speaker 4: us who were in our feminist bag before it really

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Speaker 4: kind of hit the mainstream in a bigger way, you know, it.

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Speaker 3: Was it was the trenches out here. You know.

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Speaker 4: There were all of these horrible narratives like calling feminists

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Speaker 4: all like lesbians, as pejorative, or saying that we weren't attractive,

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Speaker 4: or you know, like or we were completely man hating

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Speaker 4: in a in a particular way.

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Speaker 3: Like it was. It was just really grizzly and gnarly

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Speaker 3: at that time.

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Speaker 4: But Tumblr was really one of the few safe spaces,

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Speaker 4: I guess you could say, on the Internet where we

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Speaker 4: could gather we could be our want to be woke

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Speaker 4: selves as much as we wanted to.

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Speaker 3: And we could learn, like you could literally learn theory.

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Speaker 4: So now we have like TikTok where people are doing

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Speaker 4: you know these TikTok universities and you know, these series.

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Speaker 3: Where they're educating folks.

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Speaker 4: But a lot of that, for the first time in

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Speaker 4: a major way, was happening on Tumblr.

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Speaker 2: I contend, Oh, I never did get into the Tumblr

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Speaker 2: like I think I got, Like I said, Zinga was

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Speaker 2: my thing, and then I did a little bit of

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Speaker 2: MySpace and that was about the end.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, Tumblr was also the platform that really

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Speaker 4: allowed you to do multiple things at once with media, right,

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Speaker 4: so it was kind of like ig and Facebook and

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Speaker 4: the platform formerly known as Twitter, yes, all in one,

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Speaker 4: so you could kind of do different types of micro blogging,

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Speaker 4: which was cool.

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Speaker 3: Yes, you know.

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Speaker 4: Now you know, all of these other platforms have kind

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Speaker 4: of bitten off of that idea, and you know Ig

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Speaker 4: has threads now and Twitter has more capabilities with media.

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Speaker 3: But the time, it was really Tumblr that was letting

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Speaker 3: you do it all in one place.

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Speaker 5: Was it pre Reddit? That's just a.

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Speaker 3: Rereddit's been around longer than Tumblr.

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Speaker 5: Oh really, but I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: Actually, I can't remember when Reddit got on my radar.

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Speaker 4: I kind of want to say Reddit has been around

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Speaker 4: at least since the MySpace days, and maybe it just

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Speaker 4: wasn't as big.

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Speaker 5: Okay, soone not have to look into this later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we did do an episode on Reddit, so we

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Speaker 1: should know this, but I.

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Speaker 5: Don't think we did a timeline timeline like.

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Speaker 2: Did you that was departmentalized that episode and I've forgotten.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I just did a quick google, all right because

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Speaker 4: right now, and I'm saying it was founded in two

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Speaker 4: thousand and five. So but you know what I will say,

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Speaker 4: I don't think Reddit was big as like remember when

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Speaker 4: there was like Yahoo answers yes, like that's was like

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Speaker 4: and asked me it was like those were big, and

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Speaker 4: then I feel like, y'ah just like fell off a.

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Speaker 5: Cliff oh yeah, oh yeah, and.

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Speaker 3: Then I guess read it came in and took that space.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like I'm aging myself in this conversation

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Speaker 2: as well, So I'm gonna stop this, stop this right now.

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Speaker 4: No, You're good, But but you know, it was fun

442
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 4: going back through my Tumblr and kind of seeing in

443
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 4: real time my.

444
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 3: Embrace of my trans identity.

445
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 4: So I kind of read off some posts where I'm

446
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 4: talking about I just came out to like my mom

447
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 4: and like all these things, and and also figuring out, well,

448
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 4: what is my connection to black trans history and figures

449
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 4: like Marsha in real time? So like you were saying,

450
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 4: you wish you had your zanga like Tumblr and so

451
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 4: far back that I don't have it, Like I never

452
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 4: completely deleted it.

453
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 3: I just kind of shut like locked it down.

454
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: I'm grateful that you didn't delete it, because hearing you

455
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 2: read off those posts were amazing. I was like, yes,

456
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: I remember this like ideal, like when you go back

457
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 2: to seeing what you wrote and you're like what, But

458
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 2: at the same time, yes, I was really profound.

459
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, give yourself credit.

460
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 2: Well, if you could, what is something you would tell

461
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 2: that Tumblr writing baby self today?

462
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 4: What would I tell myself? You know, I look back

463
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 4: and sometimes I'm like, do I get less fearless the

464
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 4: old draget or do I get more fearless Because I

465
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 4: just look back at moments and I'm like, girl, that

466
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 4: was brave. I guess I would just encourage myself. I

467
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 4: would just be like, keep going, listen to that inner voice.

468
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 4: It's not gonna stare you wrong, And that's kind of

469
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 4: what I would tell myself at various points throughout my life.

470
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: It's like, just keep.

471
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 4: Listening to your convictions, listening to your heart, because that's

472
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 4: where your values are.

473
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: Well. Going back to the podcast, as we've been talking about,

474
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 1: you have some really amazing interviews and clips of Marcia

475
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: as well as amazing stories from friends of hers. What

476
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: was the response from the people you worked with when

477
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 1: you told them about this podcast.

478
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that they.

479
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 4: Were overwhelmingly excited for the opportunity to elevate Marcia's story,

480
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 4: but also like in a format that allowed them to

481
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 4: talk about the nuances. You know, Marcia had a very

482
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 4: complex existence, which I think is true for a lot

483
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 4: of transpher so, but especially in that time, the language

484
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 4: was so different. You know, she used different identifiers at

485
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 4: different points throughout her life. There were points where she

486
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 4: was having a medical transition, and then there were points

487
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 4: where she didn't have access to the medical part of

488
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 4: her transition anymore, and so there are people who use

489
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 4: more masculine pronouns for her, so that was interesting. But

490
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 4: everyone called her Marsha, So you know, there was kind

491
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: of this understanding that it was clear she was moving

492
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 4: through the world as Marcia.

493
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 3: I think people's understanding.

494
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 4: Of who she was really had to shift as society shifted,

495
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 4: and so I think that that was an interesting dynamic

496
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 4: in talking to friends and people who knew her during

497
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 4: her lifetime, was that it didn't seem like she was

498
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 4: a stickler about how they referred to her except.

499
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 3: The name, So that was cool.

500
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 4: I think folks also just wanted to be clear that, like, yes,

501
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 4: Marcia has been fashioned into this icon and in some

502
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 4: ways she was a legend when she was alive because

503
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 4: people didn't know about her presence and.

504
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 3: Action within the Sonewall Riots, but.

505
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 4: She largely wasn't supported materially in that time. She dealt

506
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 4: with a lot of barriers to housing at different points

507
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 4: in her life, not including kind of her growing up

508
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 4: with her origin family and then kind of the last

509
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 4: decade where she was roommates with her friend Randy Wicker,

510
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 4: but she dealt with houselessness at various points. She engaged

511
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 4: in sex work as a means of survival for arge

512
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 4: chunks of her life. So you know, it's interesting and

513
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 4: I think we kind of hold that tension of like

514
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 4: she was this very important and sherished figure. And also

515
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 4: there were just huge chunks of her life where her

516
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 4: living conditions were precarious, and so how does that happen?

517
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 4: And I think that we still see that today, right,

518
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 4: Like I know plenty of particularly black trans folks who

519
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 4: are highly visible but also are struggling with material conditions,

520
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 4: you know, because visibility doesn't necessarily mean vitality. It doesn't

521
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 4: mean that your leadership may be respected, for instance, in

522
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 4: the nonprofit space or even in the corporate space. Right,

523
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 4: So those things are interesting, But I love how we

524
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 4: kind of.

525
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 3: Thread those needles.

526
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 4: I think we do a good job ofind of talking

527
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 4: about that tension and that complexity.

528
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: You, yes, absolutely, And I do love that. I love

529
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: painting the full picture of someone that so many of

530
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: us learn about in maybe just a snippet in a

531
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: history book if we're lucky, until we do get to

532
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: college or something like that. And it is I love

533
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: that you're bringing in this sort of you know, she

534
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: sings and it's not well or but she's very enthusiastic

535
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: and that endears people to her. These facets of her,

536
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: and you've already given us so much. We don't want

537
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: to make your producers angry at you, But is there

538
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: something else that you think you can tease that listeners

539
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: might be surprised at a learning about this kind of

540
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: legendary figure this season.

541
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 4: Well, you know, one of the things that's really key

542
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 4: in the story, and that was like a big goal

543
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 4: for our production.

544
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 3: Was to tell a.

545
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 4: Essentially a black trans history of the HIV AIDS crisis

546
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 4: in which Marshall lived threw. And so I think that

547
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 4: we get to do something unique because when I think

548
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 4: about the HIV AIDS crisis, I didn't really have many

549
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 4: stories of how trans people were impacted by it or

550
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 4: survived it. You know, even of the elders that I

551
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 4: do know now, many of them, their heyday was like

552
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 4: really in the nineties, right or even the late eighties,

553
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,479
Speaker 4: and so you don't really get that glimpse into what

554
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 4: it was like when the epidemic really kind of popped

555
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 4: off in the early eighties. So I love that we

556
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 4: get a chance to kind of add a new dimension

557
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 4: to the HIV AIDS crisis, and we get to talk

558
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 4: about how Marcia continue to be a pillar of community

559
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 4: in that time. You know, she was losing friends left

560
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 4: and right like everyone else, and we learned that she

561
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 4: was a caretaker in that time, and so that's kind

562
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 4: of this beautiful narrative that we get. And I also

563
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 4: want to add that we get to have some really deep,

564
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 4: robust interviews with Tourmaline, who is the official biographer of Marsha.

565
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 4: Now she just released the first definitive biography on Marsha

566
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: called The Joy and Defiance of Marsha P.

567
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 3: Johnson, and so we got to kind of.

568
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 4: Lean on her scholarship in a beautiful way and also

569
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 4: in view her a few times. So I'm so excited

570
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 4: for us to kind of hear from Tourmaline about what

571
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 4: the experience was like, kind of uncovering a lot of this.

572
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: Yes, that is so exciting, and that kind of relates

573
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: to the next question. You've spoken about how learning about

574
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: Marcia was so impactful for you when you were doing

575
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: this podcast this season. What are some lessons that you

576
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 1: learned personally through your research and learning more about Marsha's life.

577
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting, you know, one thing I knew, but

578
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 4: like this has been another lesson in is the importance

579
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 4: of us preserving stories and if it's not our own,

580
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 4: of people that we love and care about, and and

581
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 4: a lot of the archival material we had access to

582
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 4: was material captured on video by her roommate Randy Wicker,

583
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 4: who was an activist in his own right and actually

584
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 4: was the first openly gay person to appear on television essentially,

585
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 4: and also I think on radio to like tell history

586
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 4: on radio, and this was kind of like the era

587
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 4: right before Marsha's era.

588
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: But this whole process was just.

589
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 4: Another lesson in the importance of safeguarding and protecting our stories,

590
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 4: because we wouldn't have been able to tell as rich

591
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 4: and as deep of a story without the work of

592
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 4: people like Randy Wicker, Michael Casino, and even a lot

593
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 4: of the archives we were able to lean on, like

594
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 4: one archives at USC libraries in California and so many more.

595
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 4: So we've got to do that work, especially in this time.

596
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 4: I mean, one of the things that we know about

597
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 4: fascism is that.

598
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 3: They come after narratives.

599
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 4: So that's why we've been seeing these curricula bands and

600
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 4: these book bands over the last few years increase. We've

601
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 4: been seeing a deep connection between what happened in Nazi Germany,

602
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 4: right where they burned books that were all and materials

603
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 4: and research that was all about queerness and transness produced

604
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 4: by Magnus Hirschfeld and his Institute of Sexology.

605
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 3: So that is an important lesson that I.

606
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 4: Hope people can kind of take away, is that we've

607
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 4: got to safeguard, defend, and protect our stories for posterity.

608
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 5: I love that.

609
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 2: I mean, that's definitely something we talk about on a

610
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 2: constant basis when we talk about historical figures and calling

611
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 2: them first or calling them, you know, giving the title

612
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,479
Speaker 2: the first woman to do this, for first Black women

613
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: to do this, and understanding that this is.

614
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 5: What we found.

615
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: But because we do know how ugly white supremacy is

616
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 2: and how they'd love to stamp out all of this

617
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 2: history of marginalized people in general, and why it's so

618
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: important that there are records and people are telling these stories.

619
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: And it's such a beautiful thing when you do get

620
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: to actually understand who who paved this movement. I think

621
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 2: about the fact that when you were talking about Marcia

622
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: and you were giving bits and pieces of her interviews

623
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 2: or her conversations with her friends, and she talked about

624
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: how powerful the black and brown trans gay community could

625
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: be if they just came together, and how big of

626
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 2: a movement they really could have thinking about that. I

627
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 2: was like, man, she really is defining intersectionality before that

628
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: word even came out in such a way that she's

629
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: just simply saying, we have this power because we understand

630
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 2: the needs for the most marginalized. And it's like boom

631
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: in episode one, you already jump onto this conversation, and

632
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 2: I just think about all of her work and advocacy

633
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: with that kind of just general general conversation she's just

634
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: having with one person or a few people. But of

635
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 2: course looking back and like seeing all that progress she

636
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: was saying all that amazing statement. Today we're back with

637
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: an administration that we really are actually trying to put

638
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: so much setback in this progress. So I want to

639
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: I want to connect your studies and research and ask

640
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: what do you think Martial's words would be or thoughts

641
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: would be to her community as they continue with her activism,

642
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 2: with this activism, with your activism to day.

643
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I want to add another dynamic because I

644
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 4: actually think, you know, when we're talking about Marcia, when

645
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 4: she's talking about us coming together and understanding how our

646
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 4: struggles are bound together, she largely wasn't you know, just

647
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 4: talking to black and brown trans people. I mean, in

648
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 4: that time, it really was Marcia and Sylvia talking to

649
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 4: a lot of white CIS gay people and saying, hey,

650
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 4: trans people have been here since the beginning, and you know,

651
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 4: I think the unspoken thing is like, actually, trans folks,

652
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 4: gender non conforming folks, drag folks, or as they would say.

653
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 4: At the time, there were all these different categories of

654
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 4: people considered queens, right, so street queens, scare queens, all

655
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 4: of that, but also the sex workers, the people who

656
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 4: were most at risk of being arrested. We're the backbone

657
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 4: of the movement, and we're the ones who were the

658
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 4: most willing.

659
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 3: To try and hold.

660
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 4: Power as we know it accountable, you know, like they

661
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 4: were the first ones to really push back against the

662
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 4: New York Police Department during the Stonewall riots.

663
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 3: And I think that that is still true today.

664
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 4: You know, we still have this kind of eternal queer

665
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 4: struggle around, and not just in the queer community, but

666
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 4: I think it's very pronounced in our community between assimilation

667
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 4: and kind of radical authenticity, because there's this idea, well,

668
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 4: if we just soften our edges, if we just silence ourselves,

669
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 4: if we just kind of push away the folks who

670
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 4: are considered the most disrespectable.

671
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 3: Then we'll get ahead. And that has.

672
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 4: Never actually worked, you know, it actually just gives permission

673
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 4: for more discrimination.

674
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: Down the way.

675
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 4: And I think about that quote, right, it's like if

676
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 4: they didn't comfort it, it's like if they didn't come

677
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 4: for you in the morning, they'll come for you at night,

678
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 4: or something like that. I think that that's true and

679
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 4: we have to remember that. And I think that that's

680
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 4: at the heart of what Marcia was really trying to

681
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 4: get people to understand.

682
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 3: Was that we're all on the chopping block.

683
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 4: If anybody's on the chopping block, right, that kind of

684
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 4: in her own way kingism, you know, mlka, right, that

685
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 4: kind of idea of injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. I

686
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 4: think she and Sylvia were sounding that alarm in their

687
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: own ways. And then I think the other piece from

688
00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 4: Marcia's that despite the struggles, you still deserve joy and

689
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 4: beauty and Tourmaline talks about this so so definitely. You

690
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 4: know that there's such a through line of pleasure in

691
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 4: Marsha's life, even without all of the things that we

692
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 4: often kind of associate with pleasure, like she still lived

693
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 4: in abundance.

694
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 1: I love that A lot of times when we have

695
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: activists on here, like you, we talk about you people. Yeah, yeah,

696
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: we talk about things like burnout are things like, you know,

697
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: not taking care of yourself or feeling like you can't

698
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: have that joy or feeling like you can't take that

699
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 1: space for yourself, and how that actually ultimately kind of

700
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: takes you out of the whole thing because your body

701
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: is just like, oh, you can't do this anymore.

702
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

703
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: So, as a leader in activism yourself, as someone who's

704
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: been in activism for a while, what is some advice

705
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,439
Speaker 1: that you might have for up and coming activists who

706
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: are fighting for liberation today.

707
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

708
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 4: It's funny because I don't think that I'm always good.

709
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 4: I think that it's cyclical for me, Like I have

710
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 4: periods where I'm better about my self care and periods

711
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 4: where I'm just kind of in the thick of it

712
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 4: and just like we got to just keep going.

713
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 3: And that's kind of the mode that I'm in right now.

714
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 4: So I honestly don't feel like I'm in any position

715
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 4: to advise anyone, but I do think it's important for

716
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 4: us to prioritize our health as much as possible, you know,

717
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 4: when and if you can eat well and also understand that,

718
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 4: like your relationships have their own kind of meters of healthiness, right, So.

719
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 3: Making sure that like.

720
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 4: You're able to show up for the people closest to

721
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 4: you and also ask of them to show up for

722
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 4: you and figure out what those ways look like. I

723
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 4: think rest is important. I think we have a backlash

724
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 4: right now against rest. People are like, don't say rest

725
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 4: is a radical act and revolution andary.

726
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 3: And actually there was this post.

727
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 4: By Immani barbaran amazing disability rights activists, who was saying,

728
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 4: you know.

729
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, actually self care and rest.

730
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 4: Is radical and this is why, and really was talking

731
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 4: about the history of it that it really kind of

732
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 4: came from Audrey Lord and her cancer journals where she

733
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 4: was kind of talking about the importance of rest as

734
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 4: self preservation so that you can keep going, so that

735
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 4: you can keep fighting, so that you can keep living

736
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 4: the full life that you deserve. And so what I

737
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 4: take away from that is that you know, if you

738
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 4: don't sit yourself down, your body is going to do

739
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 4: it for you. So what are the ways that we

740
00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 4: can intervene before we get to that critical point? And

741
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 4: then also I think there's always a collective lesson as

742
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 4: well is that, you know, if you want to have

743
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 4: a commitment to your community and to others, you have

744
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 4: to figure out how to preserve yourself so that you

745
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 4: can continue to be in.

746
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 3: Right relationship with everyone else.

747
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 4: Right, So there is like a duty of self care

748
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 4: to the collective, not just to you as an individual.

749
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: Yes, that's a great answer, because Samantha and I are

750
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: both struggling with our bodies. Basically told us to sit.

751
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 2: Down, let us think it for a minute, because I

752
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: want to push back a little bit finde.

753
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, it's so interesting. We have such an

754
00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 4: emphasis on how do we keep looking young?

755
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 3: Right, and.

756
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 4: You know what, what would it mean for us to

757
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 4: actually focus more on how do we keep feeling young

758
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 4: and able to do the things that bring us joy

759
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:18,399
Speaker 4: for as long.

760
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 2: As possible, thinking our bodies for actually carrying us this

761
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 2: far right. So obviously you just said you're in active mode,

762
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,760
Speaker 2: So we know you're a multitasker with lots of things,

763
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: things that you're juggling. What are some things we can

764
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: look forward to from you in the future outside of

765
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 2: just this, not just obviously including this podcast the shade.

766
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 5: You know, I'm just saying you.

767
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 2: Should self care, but you've got stuff giving it.

768
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 4: Well, I am a co founder of an organization, gender

769
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 4: liberation movement, So we are doing a lot of work

770
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 4: right now around narrative power and direct action in this time.

771
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 4: And funny enough, you know we're talking about healthcare and

772
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 4: self care and bodies. You know, one of our biggest

773
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 4: values is bodily autonomy, and so we've been doing a

774
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 4: lot of work within that realm to get folks to

775
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 4: understand the connection between the fight for.

776
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 3: Reproductive justice and access to.

777
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 4: Abortion and the fight for gender firming care, because we

778
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 4: need a mass movement that understands that we all deserve

779
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 4: bodily autonomy and for it to be protected and defended.

780
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 4: So that's a lot of our work right now. We've

781
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 4: also just working with affirming families trying to shore up

782
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 4: those safeguards as we await a ruling in the US

783
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 4: Vskurmti case, which is at its heart a case about

784
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 4: access to gender firm and care for youth. So there

785
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 4: are a lot of parents and a lot of guardians

786
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 4: and other adults who really want to make sure that

787
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 4: our youth continue to have access to the care that

788
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,439
Speaker 4: they deserve. And there are a lot of youth who

789
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 4: want to keep fighting. Honey, Trump does not scare them,

790
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 4: you know, They're like, we know.

791
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 3: It's risky, but it is what it is.

792
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 4: We want to be out here on the front lines.

793
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 4: So we've been doing a lot of that work this year.

794
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 3: So you can.

795
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,959
Speaker 4: Continue to learn more about Genderlib at genderlib dot org

796
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 4: and also follow us on the socials. We're always updating

797
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 4: folks and still writing. You know, I have a few

798
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 4: book ideas in the oven, so stay tuned about that.

799
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 5: See, I knew you had much more.

800
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 2: Don't act like you're You're not. You weren't ready for that,

801
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: because we know you constantly go But with that, so

802
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 2: the last time we kind of already mentioned this, you

803
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 2: already touched on quite a bit. And I'm really glad

804
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: you said the word joy because last time we asked

805
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 2: you how you take care of yourself and doing all

806
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 2: this chaos and especially with your book tours. But I

807
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 2: want to ask how have you been able to protect

808
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 2: your piece and what is giving you joy right now?

809
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 4: Oh, protecting my piece has looked like not being at

810
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 4: the whim of this whiplash inducing news cycle. You know,

811
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 4: I'm paying attention to the top line items and keeping

812
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 4: it moving.

813
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 3: I am not.

814
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 4: Delving so deeply in it or letting it consume every

815
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 4: waking moment. I think that's just important for all of

816
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:51,439
Speaker 4: us to remember as we continue to endure this era

817
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 4: of Trump again. So that's a way I'm maintaining my piece.

818
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 3: Hmmm.

819
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 4: And then Joy, I mean, I just had a birthday recently,

820
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 4: so Gemini and I got to see Beyonce on my birthday.

821
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 4: So I went to Cowboy Carter had my little cowboy,

822
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 4: my sequin cowboy hat on and a nice little like

823
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 4: red fringe body suit.

824
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 3: So I really had the best time. It was just

825
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 3: really beautiful.

826
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 4: And it's also probably month right, So in between the

827
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 4: protesting and the speaking and everything, I'm getting some party.

828
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: In Okay, Okay, okay, you doing some line dancing.

829
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 3: That's not my ministry, but I support.

830
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: You know.

831
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 4: The only line dancing I'm doing is maybe at like

832
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:53,240
Speaker 4: my family re union.

833
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 3: You know, we do our electric slide, We'll do the wobble.

834
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 5: Okay, you haven't done the fan.

835
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 3: What's on the phone?

836
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 4: No, I no, it's not for me.

837
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 3: It's not another thing. I would not look cute doing it,

838
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 3: but I support.

839
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 4: You gotta know your limits. That's another way I'm protecting

840
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 4: my piece.

841
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 3: Okay, not I want to see that.

842
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 5: Oh no, I kind of do what all.

843
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: This kind of feels like if one day somebody is

844
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: doing a podcast about you, Raquel, they'll be like, you

845
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't do the fan blind dancing, the line dancing, no way.

846
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 4: But I love a fan though, so you know I'll

847
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 4: do a fan but not the fan.

848
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 5: Not the boots on the ground fan dance. All right,

849
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 5: fair enough.

850
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: Oh, it's always such delight having you here. Thank you

851
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: so much for taking the time. We hope to keep

852
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: the street going and have you back again.

853
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel it's gonna happen.

854
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: Okay, I can't wait to hear about this new book

855
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 1: whatever it may be.

856
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 3: Pressure. Thanks.

857
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 4: I mean, I've been doing a lot of freelance writing,

858
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 4: so it's funny the nuggets are out there, so you know,

859
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 4: I guess I'm doing like a Taylor Swift Easter egg

860
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 4: kind of moment.

861
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 1: Let me go. Yeah, I love these kinds of things. Well,

862
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Where can

863
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: the good listeners find you?

864
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you can learn about my work.

865
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 4: Rockelwillis dot com our organization Gender Liberation Movement at genderlib

866
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 4: dot org. Afterlives has a website afterlivespot dot com or

867
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 4: you can just find it wherever you get your amazing podcasts.

868
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 4: As a as a fellow label mate with iHeart Media,

869
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 4: I have to you know, urge you to, you know,

870
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 4: use the iHeart Podcast app.

871
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: But you know wherever you get a podcasts, yes and

872
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: the listeners, please go do that. Raquel, You're doing such

873
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: amazing work and we always love talking to you. Thank

874
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 1: you for coming on.

875
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 3: Thank you.

876
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: If you would like to contact us, you can. Our

877
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 1: email is hello at stuff Iever Told You dot com.

878
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: You can find us on Blue Sky. I'm also a

879
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at Stuff I've Never

880
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: Told You, prost on YouTube, give a te pap with story,

881
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: and we have a book you can get wherever you

882
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: get your books. Thanks as always to you our superdu

883
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Speaker 1: just Christina or executive producer My and er contributor Joey.

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Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I

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Speaker 1: Never Told You boection my Heart Radio. For more podcast

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Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, you can check out the Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast wherever we listen to your favorite shows,