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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we

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Speaker 1: are bringing you an emergency substitution vault episode because Rob

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Speaker 1: and I and Seth just had the every podcaster's nightmare

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Speaker 1: where we had an episode all recorded, uh and and

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Speaker 1: ready to have for you tomorrow, and it was lost

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Speaker 1: to due to a technical glitch. Uh you should have

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Speaker 1: heard the sounds of anguish echoing through my home. Uh. So,

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Speaker 1: so instead we are bringing you a vault episode. But

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Speaker 1: it's a really good one, so that this should really

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Speaker 1: be a treat. This was our interview with Mary Roach

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Speaker 1: from last year, originally published on September, and it's about

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Speaker 1: her wonderful, funny and fascinating book Fuzz When Nature breaks

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Speaker 1: the law. Absolutely, so let's go ahead and dive right

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Speaker 1: into it. And Neil's say, the book Fuzz is available

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your books. Yes, oh oh, and so

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Speaker 1: Whistling Part four, which we were going to have for

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Speaker 1: you today, We're gonna have to re record that episode.

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Speaker 1: That'll be a strange experience, but we that that should

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Speaker 1: be out for you. I believe next Tuesday. We haven't

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Speaker 1: had this happen in a very very long time. So

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Speaker 1: this this is an exceedingly rare occurrence. So uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: it'll be business as usual next week. Can we create

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Speaker 1: the illusion? Can we make it feel like the first

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Speaker 1: time again? I don't know. We'll see what happens. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In today's

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Speaker 1: episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we have a

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Speaker 1: special interview guest. It's science writer Mary Roach. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: be chatting with her about her new book Fuzz When

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Speaker 1: Nature Breaks the Law, which is out today where where

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Speaker 1: you get your books. This is my first Mary Roach book,

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Speaker 1: and I love it it. I I feel ashamed now

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Speaker 1: that I had never read one of her books before. Um,

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Speaker 1: but she has such an infectious and enjoyable prose style

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Speaker 1: that really gets in your head. Um. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that I wanted to emphasize in the intro here

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Speaker 1: because because I had just been thinking about it. In

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Speaker 1: terms of subject matter, this book gets into a lot

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Speaker 1: of kind of dark and grizzly sounding stuff. But it

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Speaker 1: is but despite that it is a really funny book.

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Speaker 1: It is like one of the most laugh out loud

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Speaker 1: funny books I've read in a long time. Yeah, it's engaging,

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Speaker 1: it's weird, it's fun. Um. I was telling my wife

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Speaker 1: about the book, and she's read Mary Roach before, and

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Speaker 1: my wife was like, well, some of that sounds a

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Speaker 1: little dark. I don't know, I want to read that

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Speaker 1: right now. But but of course this has always been

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Speaker 1: the way with Mary Roach books. There they do get

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Speaker 1: into dark territory, but they are always fun and and humorous. Um.

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Speaker 1: If you're not familiar out there. Her previous book include

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Speaker 1: two thousand three Stiff, which is about cadaver's two thousand

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Speaker 1: five Spook, which is about scientific inquiries, especially early scientific

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Speaker 1: inquiries into the supernatural, two thousand eights Bunk, which is

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Speaker 1: about sexuality, two thousand tens Packing for Mars, which is

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Speaker 1: about the science scientific research into UH into into the

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Speaker 1: Quest for Space, two thousand thirteens Gulp, which is about

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Speaker 1: human digestion uh and then two thousand sixteens book was Grunt,

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Speaker 1: which is about military scientific investigations. I've read all of

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Speaker 1: these and I think this is the This is the

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Speaker 1: fourth time Mary has actually been on stuff to blow

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Speaker 1: your mind, as she previously dropped in to talk about

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Speaker 1: packing for Mars Gulp and Grunt. She's either our most

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Speaker 1: featured guests at this point or she's tied for the honors.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember either way, Friend of the Show's status

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Speaker 1: is definitely in place. Mary Roach, thanks for joining us today. Cook.

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Speaker 1: Could you introduce yourself? Of course, I'm Mary Roach. As

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Speaker 1: you said, I have a nonfiction author, and my most

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Speaker 1: recent book is called Fuzz SubTime Is When Nature Breaks

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Speaker 1: the Law. I have been so enjoying this book. I

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Speaker 1: love your dry, humorous prose style in it, and I

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Speaker 1: thought before we got any broader questions about about the

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Speaker 1: book and what you've learned from writing it, I thought

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Speaker 1: it would be good to kick off with an example

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Speaker 1: of the kinds of experiences you cover in the book.

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Speaker 1: And so I loved the story you cover in the

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Speaker 1: very first chapter about the Wildlife Human Attack Response Training

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Speaker 1: course you went through in Las Vegas. Could you tell

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Speaker 1: us a bit about this conference and and what got

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Speaker 1: you there and what it was like? Sure? Sure, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's called uh Wildlife Human Attack Response Training UH or WART,

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Speaker 1: which by its founders admission, is a terrible acronym. So

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Speaker 1: WART is a five day course which I was lucky

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Speaker 1: enough to be able to sit in on, and it's

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Speaker 1: most almost entirely attended by people who deal with wildlife

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Speaker 1: attacks the aftermath of the attack, and it's basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're setting up a crime scene and you're doing forensics,

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Speaker 1: as you might in the case of a human on

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Speaker 1: human killing, uh, and you're trying to trying to take evidence,

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Speaker 1: collect evidence, established linkage between the perpetrator and the victim. Um.

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Speaker 1: And if they've they've caught an animal that they think

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Speaker 1: might be the animal and the DNA doesn't match or

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Speaker 1: they don't they're not able to establish that linkage, they'll

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Speaker 1: release the animals. So there's these bizarre parallels to the

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Speaker 1: human the human criminal justice system. But for me, it

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Speaker 1: was just a fascinating five days of hanging out and

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Speaker 1: hearing a lot about predator attacks and the aftermath, which

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Speaker 1: was both fascinating and often quite grizzly g R. I

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Speaker 1: yes's not easy, um and so yeah, And it was

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Speaker 1: utterly fascinating to me because I've you know, I've never

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Speaker 1: encountered this world and did not know that these crime

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Speaker 1: scenes were processed that way and that this work was done. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you include some details about like these sessions where

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Speaker 1: you would be given a mannequin that had these wounds

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Speaker 1: inflicted on it with saws and knives and things, and

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Speaker 1: you'd have to establish what type of animal it was

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Speaker 1: from the wounds on the mannequin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: They had these soft touch mannequins. They're not like something

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Speaker 1: you'd see in a store window. They were they were

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Speaker 1: you know, they're fleshy, I'll say fleshy. And they were

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Speaker 1: the people who had created these wounds were people who've

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Speaker 1: seen that. I mean, they were based on actual bodies

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Speaker 1: and the wounds on the victims of attacks. Some of

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Speaker 1: them bear, some of them cougar or mountain lion um

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Speaker 1: and uh quite uh quite realistic, I have to say.

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Speaker 1: And and so they were, they were. We all had workstations,

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Speaker 1: you know, they were about it. There were about eight

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Speaker 1: or more, maybe a few more workstations. Each group had uh,

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Speaker 1: mock victim. And the idea was, look at these wounds

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Speaker 1: and what can you learn And you can pretty quickly,

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Speaker 1: uh make a distinction between first of all, human versus

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Speaker 1: animal and then uh uh mountain lion versus bag. They

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Speaker 1: kill in very different ways. They have very different teeth

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Speaker 1: and claws, and the marks on the body and the

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Speaker 1: wounds will tell you, um quite readily who the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: or what species the perpetrator was UM. And then after

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Speaker 1: that is established and you sort of you're moving down

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Speaker 1: to more than nitty gritty of looking at saliva, you know,

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Speaker 1: matching DNA between the victim and the animal. So you

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Speaker 1: might be doing that with saliva on the victim's body

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Speaker 1: or blood. You might be looking into the gums of

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Speaker 1: the animal to see is their human tissue there and

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Speaker 1: does is that? Does that match the victims So you

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Speaker 1: just like you might do on you know, C s

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Speaker 1: I or one of those shows that I never watched

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Speaker 1: with those forensics shows, so uh, super interesting stuff. One

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Speaker 1: of the details from the section that really stuck with

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Speaker 1: me was in warning to everyone, this is about to

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Speaker 1: get gruesome. The idea of since bears tend to when

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Speaker 1: they do attack humans, which is rare, but when they do,

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Speaker 1: they tend to bite repeatedly at the face that you

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Speaker 1: might expect to say, find human facial features like lips

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Speaker 1: or something, it's stuck in the bear's teeth or the stomach.

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Speaker 1: You would examine the bear's stomach contents and they're you know,

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Speaker 1: they're they're uh not necessarily chewing all that thoroughly, and

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Speaker 1: so you might find you know, an entire i or

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Speaker 1: in one case, a part of the scalp with a

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Speaker 1: mohawk haircut and which in fact match the victim's hairstyle.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, with bears, because bears, when they attack each other,

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Speaker 1: they use their teeth and go for the face. They

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Speaker 1: go for each other's face because that's lightly furred and

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Speaker 1: they can inflict more damage. And that's the sets. They're

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Speaker 1: kind of Achilles heel, which is in there on their head,

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Speaker 1: not their foot. Uh, so they're u that's kind of

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Speaker 1: what they do and when that which makes for some

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Speaker 1: pretty horrible injuries. Also you see that also um with

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Speaker 1: with cougars because they they're biting at the neck um.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes you know when um, I use the comparison

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Speaker 1: again rather grizzly, but when you think of biting into

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Speaker 1: a very ripe plum, how when you bite into it,

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Speaker 1: the skin pulls away. So so what you sometimes have

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Speaker 1: is kind of these scalpings as at work. Was that

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Speaker 1: you know, if you if you try if you're an

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Speaker 1: animal and you're trying to get your jaw around a

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Speaker 1: human head, you're hitting bone right away, and then you

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Speaker 1: close your jaws and it pulls the skin away. So

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Speaker 1: some of these um mannequins were really a little tough

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Speaker 1: to tough to see, and I can imagine coming upon

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Speaker 1: the real thing would be pretty disturbing. But one of

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Speaker 1: the interesting things that is this is a takeaway from

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Speaker 1: observing all these different kinds of wounds, is that almost

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Speaker 1: all of them indicate that we are not really what

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Speaker 1: this animal has evolved to use its jaws or claws on.

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Speaker 1: And so like you described with the with the cougars

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Speaker 1: biting the back of the head or bears attacking humans,

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Speaker 1: the bites almost reveal the strangeness of this encounter between

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Speaker 1: the human and the animal. Right a bear bears eating

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Speaker 1: I mean they're they're mostly eating nuts, berries, fruit, um,

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Speaker 1: if sometimes fish, grasses. So they have molars that they

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Speaker 1: have a jaw that goes side to side, and they

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Speaker 1: got molars for crushing and grinding um. So there, so

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Speaker 1: the bites on a human, it's a it's it's messy,

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Speaker 1: is the way it was put. It's kind of a

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Speaker 1: messy affair. Whereas uh, a mountain line and as does

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Speaker 1: a leaps attacks secures, the pride does a killing bite.

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Speaker 1: So these puncture wounds, these triangular puncture wounds, it's a

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Speaker 1: less messy death, if you will. So, yeah, you can

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Speaker 1: really see how the animals equipped to gather its food

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Speaker 1: and uh. And with mountain lions, yeah, they do tend

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Speaker 1: to they pounce and kill. They are predators and true carnivores,

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Speaker 1: but they're not in true we're not on the menu

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Speaker 1: they like deer or wild pigs or they're not they're

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Speaker 1: not going after humans. Very very rarely a whole decade.

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Speaker 1: We'll go buy in California where we don't have a

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Speaker 1: single mountain lion fatality. It's just a very unusual occurrence. Now,

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Speaker 1: speaking of bears, I sually, I really enjoyed the how

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Speaker 1: not only with the bear chapter, but you know, multiple

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Speaker 1: chapters in the book. You you kind of you turn

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Speaker 1: our pre existing notions of these animals kind of on

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Speaker 1: their head, even if we think that our pre existing

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Speaker 1: notions are kind of you know, well informed. Uh, but

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Speaker 1: with the with the bear in particular, when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about the break ins that are perpetrated by bears, and

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Speaker 1: in these cases, how it seems like the bear is

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Speaker 1: such a contradiction. Can you speak to like some of

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Speaker 1: those some of those details about like how how reckless

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Speaker 1: they can be, but then so how just almost hauntingly precise. Sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I spent some time in um Picken County, Colorado, on

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Speaker 1: the outskirts of downtown Aspen, up in the hills. Um

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Speaker 1: and this is a ski resort town. We're up in

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Speaker 1: the mountains. We are in bear territory. Uh, and so

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Speaker 1: uh the bears are the bears start to realize nuts

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Speaker 1: and berries, these are great, grab apples, choke cherry, this

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Speaker 1: is great. But these humans, these humans seem to have

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Speaker 1: some really good stuff inside their homes. And a bear

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Speaker 1: that kind of realizes that surprisingly adept at popping a

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Speaker 1: window or even turning. They call the bear handles their

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Speaker 1: French door handles, which just pushed down on and pushed

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Speaker 1: the door and it opens quite easily. So bears are

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Speaker 1: find it very easy to to get into two people's

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Speaker 1: homes and people are sometimes surprised. And it depends on

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Speaker 1: the bear. But some bears, like the break in that

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Speaker 1: where I went to the aftermath of this break in

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Speaker 1: and the bear had gone through a downstairs, through a

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Speaker 1: deck leading to a bedroom downstairs and then up to

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Speaker 1: the kitchen. Didn't knock anything over. Uh, didn't even leave

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Speaker 1: footprints sun bears. Um. The guy who the wildlife invested

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Speaker 1: was Colorado Fishing, Game and Fish and Wildlife that he

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Speaker 1: was talking about how they they will sometimes reach in,

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Speaker 1: like take out a carton of eggs and inside, or

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Speaker 1: or take out things that they don't want to put

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Speaker 1: them aside. One bear allegedly opened hers she's kiss, opened

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Speaker 1: the foil her, she's kiss uh, and and ate that.

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Speaker 1: So they're there. Yeah, they there. While they can create,

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Speaker 1: you know, awful mess, whether it's on a body or

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Speaker 1: in someone's kitchen, sometimes they're surprisingly um precise and laid back.

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Speaker 1: It's it's interesting how different their person individual personalities are.

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Speaker 1: Was it from uh, the person you were speaking with

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Speaker 1: the Colorado Fish and Wildlife that you got that fact about,

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Speaker 1: or at least the allegation that some of these bears

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Speaker 1: apparently have brand preferences when it comes to ice cream,

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Speaker 1: like they really like Hoggin Dawes, but they don't like

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Speaker 1: the store brand. Yes, it was it was. It was

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Speaker 1: a woman from the neighboring town is it's Snowmass. I

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Speaker 1: think the it's a it's a again a mountain resort

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Speaker 1: ski and mountain biking resort town. Tina White I believe

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Speaker 1: her name was, and she said that the black bears

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Speaker 1: in the area they prefer premium brands. They will not

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Speaker 1: touch Western Family ice cream, which I guess is like

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Speaker 1: a low rent brand that they have in Colorado and

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Speaker 1: they're like, no, no, no, thank you. I gotta say

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Speaker 1: the parts of that chapter where you were talking about

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Speaker 1: the bears getting into the trash, the unsecured trash outside

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Speaker 1: of fancy restaurants, that was really making me hungry when

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Speaker 1: you were listing all the foods they were stabbing their

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Speaker 1: snouts into, so the rotten barata cheese and the and

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Speaker 1: the sustainable scuna salmon, and exactly if they were like

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Speaker 1: this is some good than let's see. Let's let's go

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Speaker 1: a little broader for a second here and just talk

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Speaker 1: about the book itself, which again is fuzz when when

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Speaker 1: nature breaks the law. I was just wondering, how how

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Speaker 1: long have you been planning this particular book, and is

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Speaker 1: there is there anything in particular that you can point

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Speaker 1: to as being like the inspiration point that led you

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Speaker 1: down this road. Oh, I wish I had a great

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Speaker 1: origin story because people people often ask about that, and

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Speaker 1: um I came to it this one. And it's a

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Speaker 1: really kind of circuitous roundabout, not necessarily all that interesting. Half.

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Speaker 1: I had originally gotten interested in wildlife crime scene forensics,

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Speaker 1: but not when the animals are the perpetrators, but when

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Speaker 1: the animals are the victims. Uh So, I was up

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Speaker 1: at this forensics lab that the Fish and Wildlife Department has,

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Speaker 1: talking to this woman who was an expert in how

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Speaker 1: to tell counterfeit versus genuine dried tiger penis, because of

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Speaker 1: course it's illegal to traffic in animal endangered animal parts

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Speaker 1: and uh, as it turns out, almost always was being

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Speaker 1: passed off as tiger penis is deer or horse or cow,

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Speaker 1: partly because those are easier to come by and they're

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Speaker 1: bigger and more impressive. And if you're trying to quote

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Speaker 1: unquote cure erectile dispon or make yourself more virile, a

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Speaker 1: little tiger penis doesn't. It doesn't have the right optics. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's a long winded way of saying I was up

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Speaker 1: at this lab the Fish and Wildlife National Wildlife Forensics Laboratory,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, well, this, this could be an interesting area.

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Speaker 1: But as it turns out, I was not going to

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Speaker 1: be able to follow any open investigations. I wasn't to

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Speaker 1: be able to tag along with investigators and do the

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Speaker 1: kind of thing I really have to do for my

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Speaker 1: books to make it interesting for myself hopefully for the reader.

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Speaker 1: So that was a dead end, and I kind of

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Speaker 1: various other things happened. But I eventually thought, well, what

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Speaker 1: if I turned it around, and what if the animals

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Speaker 1: were the perpetrators and the people are the victims, and

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Speaker 1: and you know what, what would what's to be done there?

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Speaker 1: And I learned that there's in fact a whole science

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Speaker 1: that's devoted to this, called human wildlife conflict and the

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Speaker 1: science of human wildlife conflict, and there's conventions and scientists

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Speaker 1: and researchers. So I thought that could be an interesting

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Speaker 1: world to step into. So it was a circuitous path,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. It wasn't. I have not been attacked, or

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Speaker 1: not until the book, by any animals. You were you

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Speaker 1: were robbed by a monkey, I was mugged by mcc Yes,

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Speaker 1: I was. So when I when I picked up the

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Speaker 1: book and was getting into it. You know, I expected

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Speaker 1: a lot of it, of course, to be happening in

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Speaker 1: a contemporary setting and dealing with our modern world, thinking like, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is where the legal system has led, and this

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Speaker 1: is where you know, the growth of human populations and

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Speaker 1: expansion has led. So I was really surprised and interested

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Speaker 1: when you mentioned a book from nineteen o six, The

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Speaker 1: Criminal Prosecution and Punishment of Animals. But I believe E. P. Evans,

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Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about this? Sure, That's

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Speaker 1: something I came upon very early on and also pushed

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Speaker 1: me towards this topic. A bizarre book. This is a

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Speaker 1: book detailing the things that human societies used to do

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Speaker 1: to deal with animals and insects that were committing crimes

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Speaker 1: against them, crimes in the sense of the following our laws,

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Speaker 1: you know, stealing or or committing manslaughter, and what used

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Speaker 1: to happen is that they were uh, criminally prosecuted. The

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Speaker 1: example I've given the book is this case. It's from

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Speaker 1: sixteen fifty nine and Northern le A province in northern Italy,

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Speaker 1: and um caterpillars were eating a lot of the crops, lettuces,

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Speaker 1: whatever they were and these caterpillars will do they're hungry.

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Speaker 1: They've got, you know, bulk up for their little transition.

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Speaker 1: And so the community that the um whoever, the magistrate

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Speaker 1: or the head person was posted summons legal summons on

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Speaker 1: the trees in the area requesting that the caterpillars appear

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Speaker 1: in court on a set date, at which point, the

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Speaker 1: summons said they would be assigned legal representation and a

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Speaker 1: trial would ensue. And of course the caterpillars did not

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Speaker 1: appear at court, but by that time had pupated, weren't

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Speaker 1: causing any problems anymore. But but that's this book. It's

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Speaker 1: like four hundred pages of well documented situations and cases.

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Speaker 1: There were, you know, livestock, some of it pigs, pigs

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Speaker 1: killing small children. Not don't care about that happening much today,

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Speaker 1: but apparently used to have, and with some frequency, the

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Speaker 1: pigs being tried, executed, sometimes imprisoned. And I thought this,

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Speaker 1: I almost thought this was a hoax because it was

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Speaker 1: so so bizarre. But the bat the appendix as a

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Speaker 1: number of these documents and UM in some detail in

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Speaker 1: Latin a lot of the times sometimes French. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: so it was it was real, and it was not

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Speaker 1: that there were just simple minded people. It was the way,

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Speaker 1: the way the author explained it. It was a way

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Speaker 1: to um display the breadth of your powers as as

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Speaker 1: a legal entity or as a leader. You know, even

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Speaker 1: nature must follow my rules and you will be punished.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of a display, kind of ludicrous, but

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Speaker 1: a display of dominion and power and I control all so.

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Speaker 1: But but the the details were quite quite amazing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: people ritz w r I t rits of ejectment that

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Speaker 1: were stuffed into the burrows of rats like you must

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Speaker 1: leave them. They get the premises under genalty of law. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: legal system not the best approach of the animals. They

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Speaker 1: don't read, they don't care. They just want a place

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Speaker 1: to have a nest or get something to eat, and

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Speaker 1: we offer that and they take advantage of it. These

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Speaker 1: are crimes of opportunity for the most part. Anyway, that

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Speaker 1: that book is a fascinating I thought particularly easy to

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Speaker 1: get through, but a fascinating read. Nineteen o six when

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Speaker 1: that book was published, do you think these kinds of

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Speaker 1: legal actions were at all um based on a certain

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Speaker 1: theological understanding of law. I don't recall any mention of

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Speaker 1: this in the book. But you know, was there an

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Speaker 1: idea that maybe if you issued a certain kind of legitimate,

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Speaker 1: uh sanctioned by the court, that somehow God would enforce

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Speaker 1: it or something. Yeah, yes, there there definitely was a

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Speaker 1: religious element. There was this sense that this belief that

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Speaker 1: these plagues and these um actions of these animals were

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Speaker 1: being or a punishment on the people themselves, that that

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Speaker 1: God was punishing us by sending these creatures. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was that was tied into it. There was a

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Speaker 1: belief that we the community are being punished and so

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Speaker 1: you know, we will I mean, I don't know that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what you're asking, but that was that was definitely

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Speaker 1: part of the part of the belief. But but on

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Speaker 1: the subject of theology and religion, you do, and later

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Speaker 1: in the book get into that a bit, talking to

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Speaker 1: individuals about like what is what is one's religious responsibility

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Speaker 1: towards these animals that we may think of as vermin. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I spent some time in India, which has quite a

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Speaker 1: different attitude and relationship attitude toward animals and relationship with them,

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Speaker 1: partly because a lot a lot of the deities and

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Speaker 1: Hinduism are animals, where there you know, they appear as

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Speaker 1: animals or the spouse as an animal, or they ride

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Speaker 1: around on an well they themselves like Onunt him on

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00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: is you know, the monkey head and Gunnash the elephant

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Speaker 1: cows are considered sacred. So it's a when when those

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Speaker 1: animals start to cause problems. Um, people are not as

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Speaker 1: quick to rush in to calling the authorities to exterminate

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Speaker 1: them or call them. Uh, there's a there's a stigma

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Speaker 1: attached to that. You know, New Delhi the tremendous problems

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Speaker 1: of macaques, troops of not just not just Deli, all

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Speaker 1: over cities in northern India. Macaques cause a lot of problems.

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Speaker 1: And uh, one of the things that's done in Na

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Speaker 1: Delhi is to catch them and transport them down to

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Speaker 1: this large sanctuary in the southern part of the city.

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Speaker 1: It used to be a mine and now it's reallywilded

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Speaker 1: and is a place where the maccaques are let loose.

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00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: And it's very very hard for the authorities to hire

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Speaker 1: monkey catchers. I mean, that's is this just you would

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Speaker 1: you would be looked at a scance if you were

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Speaker 1: somebody who was trapping and man handling macaques because of

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00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: the religious significance of these animals. The other thing going

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Speaker 1: on while their pests and nuisances to people that people

407
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: are also they gather at temples, these monkeys because they

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Speaker 1: know people will and offerings. They will not only inside

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Speaker 1: the temple or you know, the more conventional um offerings

410
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: are made, but when they go outside, they see the

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Speaker 1: monkey and they will give the monkey, you know, fruit

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Speaker 1: or little packets of soda or whatever. Then they'll they'll

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Speaker 1: So they're they're both encouraging the animal and then also

414
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Speaker 1: being harassed by it. So it's a sticky problem there.

415
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Speaker 1: The reli the religious the religious elements make it more

416
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Speaker 1: complicated when when it comes to finding some sort of solution.

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Speaker 1: There are several examples in the book where you discuss

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Speaker 1: animals that in some way interact or have conflict with,

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Speaker 1: or live alongside humans, and how there might be a

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Speaker 1: sort of emergent evolutionary pressure on animals that know how

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Speaker 1: to exploit human and just like just to the right

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Speaker 1: extent without overstepping and then being being dealt with violently.

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Speaker 1: Like you talked about this in the chapter with the bears,

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Speaker 1: which I thought was really interesting, how there there could

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Speaker 1: be a kind of evolutionary advantage for what are called

426
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Speaker 1: the fat Albert bears and bears that are you know,

427
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: get in and get a lot of calories out of

428
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: your fridge, but are less likely to have a scary

429
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: conflict with a person or less likely to damage the house. Right, Yeah,

430
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,479
Speaker 1: the the fat fat Albert was a bear that, uh

431
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 1: was quite good at breaking into people's cabins and homes.

432
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: This is again Colorado. But people would marvel afterwards, like,

433
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: came in here, didn't damage anything. Maybe we're kind of impressed,

434
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: you know, okay, rated the fridge took some stuff, didn't

435
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: break anything. So so not as likely to be angry

436
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: or to perceive this creature as a threat and to

437
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: call uh Colorado Parks and Wildlife and and you know,

438
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: request something be done about the bear. So so then

439
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: you know, the more at Alberts, the more these bears

440
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,479
Speaker 1: persist and survived to breeding age, the more you're going

441
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: to sort of see more hopefully more fat Alberts. Because

442
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 1: the bears that are very aggressive, uh, that are aggressive

443
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 1: toward people or their pets, and that break in and

444
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: cause a lot of damage. They to use the phrasing

445
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 1: of the person I was talking to, they're gonna get

446
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: whacked fast like some people are going to be feel threatened,

447
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: They're going to complain, They're going to call the agency.

448
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: Agency is going to come out set a big covert

449
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: trap and that animal will be destroyed. So uh, possibly, yes, possibly,

450
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: you know, the fat alberts will be seeing more and

451
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: more of them and fewer and fewer of the aggressive

452
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: ones and that could be a good thing over time. Now,

453
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: in your your section, in your in Fuzz dealing with

454
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: animals on the highways, you discuss self driving car solutions

455
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: to animal strikes. Uh. And I found this very fascinating

456
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: as well. How does it seem that self driving cars

457
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: are likely to react to animal on the road in

458
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: the future. Well, right now, there's something called a large

459
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: animal detection system. So an animal that kin a long legged,

460
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: tall animal. Uh, anything that comes into the path, the

461
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: beam of the detector that fits that visual profile will

462
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: cause the car to stop that I mean, the brakes

463
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: will be applied. H And the reason is a large

464
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: animal detection system. What they're hoping to prevent is collisions

465
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: with a moose and elk or an elk, because those

466
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: animals are tall enough that if the car strikes them,

467
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: it strikes them in the legs, and the entire torso

468
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: and head and antler's cart whales back over the car.

469
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: And these animals are tall enough that that that they

470
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: come through the windshield and land on the driver and

471
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: or the passenger. And um the result is often a

472
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 1: broken neck, death or or or paralysis. So um, it's

473
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: quite different than just hitting a deer. On the deers,

474
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: I mean, there's gonna be a lot of damage to

475
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: the car and to the deer, but often the person's

476
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: the person survives without serious injury, unless, of course they

477
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: swerved and hit a tree and went off the road. Um.

478
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: So a self driving car, uh, the ones that I

479
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: heard about I called, UM. I think I've talked to

480
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: someone at Volvo Volvo and SB because there's they're sold

481
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: a lot in northern regions. Are have concerns about moose

482
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: hitting moose because there's a lot of fatalities. But when

483
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: it I got curious about small animals, like how does

484
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: the car decide when it should just plow forward because

485
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: it's safer to hit a pet than it is to swerve,

486
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: or how you know how Uh if you stop short

487
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: for a small animal, then the car behind now smashes

488
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: into you. How do you how does a car make

489
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,479
Speaker 1: those decisions? You know, at what point is it's safer

490
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: for the human for the driver to just go ahead

491
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: and hit the raccoon um, instead of serving to save

492
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: the animal's life. And I tried to get an interview

493
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: with someone at Weymo UH and a couple of other places,

494
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: and they don't They didn't want to talk about that.

495
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: They don't want to They didn't want to engage on

496
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: the topic, which leaves me to think they haven't quite

497
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: worked out worked out what to do, because it's it's

498
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: it's situation by situation, UM. The worst thing to do

499
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: in the case of a small animal on the road

500
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: with you know, if there's trees and things on the

501
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: side of the road, you know, to swerve sharply um

502
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: and and put yourself at risk of going off the

503
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: road and hitting a tree or a rock or a barrier. Um.

504
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: That that's not what you want to do. But but

505
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: it's also to say, well, our cars will just go

506
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: ahead and plow into your dog or cat or recoon

507
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: to save your life. We will just be just plowing

508
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: right on through without even breaking or even blinking an eye.

509
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: So that you know, that the optics of that are

510
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: kind of awful too. So that's a question that I

511
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: have that I that as far as I know, hasn't

512
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: really been answered. I think that the priorities right now

513
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: and they've got so many other things to figure out

514
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: before they get down to what do we do about

515
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: someone's beagle? Yeah, I mean it reminds me of stuff

516
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: I've read recently just related in general to self driving cars.

517
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: They're just about all the things we do sometimes just

518
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: nonsensical risks that we cake be a you know, a

519
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: risky left hand turn, or the fact that yet that,

520
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: like I'm driving to pick my kid up from school,

521
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: I might swerve around the chipmunk in the road, and

522
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: it was in retrospect it was dangerous, But also in retrospect,

523
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would have done anything else, you know,

524
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: And how do you translate or improve upon that that

525
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: kind of decision making and the machine right, and how

526
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: do you tell a small animal from a kid on

527
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: a small bicycle, And how do you i mean, those

528
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: those fine grain distinctions, how do you trust the car

529
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: to make those? It's it's really it is really tricky

530
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: on um. Yeah, and even you know, I have a

531
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: a new issue, a new edition of Stiff coming out

532
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: and with an epilogue where I went back and I

533
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: talked to me like what's new in these topics, And

534
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: one of the things that came up was passenger safety

535
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: in a self driving car. If you you don't need

536
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: to be at the steering wheel in a set position,

537
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: if you can now sit sideways or or you know not,

538
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: you're not confined as you were as a driver. Well,

539
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: now in an impact, how do you keep that person safe?

540
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: Where do you put the air bags? If somebody people

541
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: can kind of sit across from each other and you know,

542
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: you freed people up in the interior of the car,

543
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: how do you keep them How do you keep them safe?

544
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: Where does the airbag go? How do you you know,

545
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: how do you configure the seatbelt? So all of that

546
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: has to be a rethought and probably, you know, the

547
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: small animal portion of it will be pretty far down

548
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: the list. Is there? Is there a date for the

549
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: new edition of Stiff? Yeah, this this week, I think that,

550
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: I think August thirty one, the new edition with a

551
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: snazzy new cover comes out. Yeah, this is of course

552
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: your your your first big book that that that kicked

553
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: it off. Yeah. My first book, kind of Stiff, came

554
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: out in three I think it was. Yeah, Yeah, yeah,

555
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: I've I've read that, I've read I've read all of

556
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: your books that have come out. They're always always thank you, jeez.

557
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear that. So one thing I found

558
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: interesting about um the sections of the book involving humans

559
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: and animals that come into violent conflict UM, is that, well,

560
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: you so you have a chapter about leopards in India

561
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: that intentionally stalk humans as prey. Repeatedly they become habituated

562
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: to this, and you got me wondering, what are some

563
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: of the broad truths about the difference between animals that

564
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: sort of stumble into hapless encounters with humans that might

565
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: turn violent, versus animals deliberately stalk humans as prey. Yeah,

566
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: the broad truth is that it's very uncommon for an

567
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: animal that can easily attack and kill a human to

568
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: do that. We are not really on the typically, we

569
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: are not on the menu. Something has to change. And

570
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: in the Middle Himalaya, where I was in India, a

571
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: couple of things happened. One the theory that Jim Corbett,

572
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: who was brought into hunt down some of these kind

573
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: of famous man eaters, as he called them. His theory

574
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: was that during the pandemic of nineteen seventeen, there were

575
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: so many people dying that the traditional ritual of you know,

576
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: taking the body to the river and building a pyre,

577
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: and you know that wasn't happening, and they would, um

578
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: it came up with a more expedient ritual, which is

579
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: to put a hot coal in the mouth and send

580
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: the body off down the hill towards the river, not

581
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: to actually the track and do the whole ritual. And

582
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: so there were a lot of bodies that were now

583
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: available and leopard will scavenge. And the US belief was

584
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: that they developed a taste for human meat that way,

585
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: and that they then went on to incorporate human meat

586
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: into their diet going forward. Um, that's a that's a

587
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: theory that may well be true. Um. The theory of

588
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: the researcher that I traveled with was had to do

589
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 1: with what's going on in that part of the world,

590
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: which is a lot of farming communities. Um, the men

591
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: have given up farming and gone to look for work

592
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: in the cities, and so there's a lot of rewilding land.

593
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: It's it's occupied by people. Are a lot of you know,

594
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 1: women and children left behind there. But there's cover now

595
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: for and there's a lot of brush around homes and

596
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: communities and which leopards need to hunt. They will sneak

597
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: up and then you know, cover the last distance in

598
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,959
Speaker 1: a burst of speed and a pounds. So they tend

599
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: to need to have of earth. Also, livestock there isn't

600
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: being as well tended, so it's kind of be it

601
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: falls prey to the leopards and the people, the people

602
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: who are watching the livestocks. Sometimes there kids and uh

603
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: of the individuals killed by leopards in that region in

604
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: this once this researcher study were kids under ten. Uh,

605
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: So there's opportunities that weren't there for for animals that

606
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: hunt and and and sadly a human or a child

607
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: there or the or people's pets. They're they're easier to

608
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 1: catch than a deer or a wild pig. So part

609
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: of it maybe leopards just realizing this is an easy dinner.

610
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of these uh, these stories

611
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: in some way involve um rapid changes or modification to

612
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: the landscape done by humans. Yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah

613
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: that the situation there with elephants againssing to me anyway,

614
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 1: number of deaths five deaths a year caused by human

615
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: deaths caused by elephants UM. And what's happening there is

616
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: there's there's this elephant corridor as it's called. The elephants

617
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: tend to move along this path looking for food. UM.

618
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: It's across northern India to the border with Nepal, and

619
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: these regions are seeing an influx of refugees and also

620
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: Terry has felt several establishments. There's roads coming through and

621
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: the elephants are getting this is the term pocketed, stuck

622
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: in little pockets, and elephants eat a lot they travel

623
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: and sizable herds and they are turning to the farmers

624
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: crops for food because they don't have enough food and

625
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: they're stuck. They can't keep moving on the way they

626
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: used to. And so then that's when you have conflict

627
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: because you have these um villagers who they're they're depending

628
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: on this food to survive. You know, it's it's subsistence farming.

629
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: And so you know, a troop of elephants that comes through,

630
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: even if they don't eat what you're growing, they're gonna trample,

631
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: you know, you get the seven or eight elephants are

632
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: going to cause a tremendous amount of damage. So people

633
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: see the elephants coming onto their land and they'll run

634
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: out and they'll try you know, they're they're angry and

635
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 1: they're upset, and they tend to they tend to be

636
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: deaths from getting trampled or knocked over or I mean

637
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: the elephant even if they're that's not the elephant's intent.

638
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: It's a very big animal and it's just knocks you

639
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 1: with its trunk. It can kill you. And um, so

640
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: so yes, it's it's humans moving into the territory and

641
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: and changing the landscape in ways that Steiny's their their

642
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: natural behaviors and they're there their way of surviving and

643
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: getting food. You see that also, you know highways, interstate

644
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: highways in this country, sometimes they're put in without taking

645
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: a look at, well, what what animals migrate seasonally to

646
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 1: get food, go to a different elevation to get food

647
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: or to breede, and are we cutting them off? You know?

648
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: That's so that's um that's a problem. And you can

649
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: build an over asked but that's an expensive thing to

650
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: do and you know, much better to look at that

651
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: beforehand saying, you know, what is the situation here in

652
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: this this sloth of land. What kind of wildlife do

653
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: we have? And how did they move each year seasonally? Um?

654
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: Is there is this a bad idea? Correct me if

655
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. But I think another example of that kind

656
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: of thing about um modification of the landscape and and

657
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,439
Speaker 1: the problems that causes is like poor choices about the

658
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: relationship between different types of plants or fruit bearing plants,

659
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: especially and settled areas. Like I think you give the

660
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: example of was it an aspen or somewhere else in

661
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: Colorado that the city was planting crab apple trees within

662
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: the city even while they're trying to solve their bear problem.

663
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: But then the other thing that stuck with me was

664
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: I think you were talking about um cabins being like sited.

665
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: Somebody buy a plot of land and build a cabin

666
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: right in the middle of a bunch of natural berry trees,

667
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 1: so that would be the place where like the bears

668
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: would already be habituated to. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

669
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: The crab apples and downtown aspen Um they mean crab

670
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: apple if you I mean, if you've seen a crab

671
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 1: apple tree it's they're tiny crab apples, but their own sect,

672
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: their clusters of them kind of like grapes, and the

673
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: bears just sort of like opens its mouth, you know,

674
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: and like pulls its mouth down the branch and gets

675
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: these big mouthfuls. I mean, the crab apple tree is

676
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: just heaven't you know, if you're an animal looking to

677
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: get a concentrated food source and lots of calories to

678
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: put on weight before you hibernate crab apple tree. Yeah.

679
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: So the fact that those are planted in downtown, Um,

680
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: they're pretty when they blew. Yeah, that's true. They are

681
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 1: lovely in the spring, but creating creating some issues there

682
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: and and there was even efforts to get them the

683
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: city to take them out and they resisted that, which

684
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: this seems a little it was a little ill advised.

685
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I mean here in the in the

686
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: Bay area, a lot up in the hills in Berkeley

687
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: and Oakland, a lot of deer. So it really behoo

688
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: as you when you do your landscaping, to plant plants

689
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: that deer are not interested in. That is something any

690
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: good landscape or here will do is suggest plants that

691
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: deer I don't like. Otherwise you won't have much landscaping

692
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: very soon. And of course that this all leads to

693
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: some people might might jump to the conclusion, well, don't

694
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: don't we need to kill more of these animals, And

695
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: that's that's something you discuss quite a bit, like this

696
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: idea that if sometimes these just elaborate efforts to remove

697
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: the animals that then just backfire for for reasons that

698
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: you get into in the book. Um And at one

699
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: point you you refer to quote the inside out history

700
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 1: of conservation in America, which which I think I love

701
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: the way you put that there, because yeah, dealing with

702
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: how conservation in America is often not tied up in

703
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 1: these also these eradication movements or in the hunting movement.

704
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: Can you speak to some of that that complexity there? Well, sure,

705
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: concert conservation, wilderness conservation came out of a desire to

706
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: set aside these large pristine tracts of wilderness so that

707
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 1: hunters would have a place to hunt. Essentially, they were

708
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 1: they were hunt and fish and they're still, I mean,

709
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: to this day, we have a lot of government land

710
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: that is managed by wildlife agencies, and wildlife agencies are

711
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: funded still by hunting licenses and taxes on equipment. So

712
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: there's it. There is this link. I mean, on the

713
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: one hand, it is fabulous that these these were set aside,

714
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: that they didn't become agricultural land. I live in in

715
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: California and if you go out to the Central Valley

716
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: Um there are these little pockets of California as it

717
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: used to be, these wetlands with these tremendous diversity of

718
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: bird life that you know, bird bird stopping over and

719
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: during migration. You know, you have you know, ducks, gadwalls, geese,

720
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,959
Speaker 1: just dozens of species. It's the birders paradise. But there's

721
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: also a little hunt tea cabins for duck hunters who

722
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 1: come and the land was set aside by and for hunting,

723
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: but it's also something you know, for hikers and and birders.

724
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 1: And it's a weird it is. You know, I, as

725
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: a bird watcher used to go out there. I never

726
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: knew about the little hunters cabins. It's kind of like

727
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: this sort of secret reality of that that area and

728
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: those wetlands. But it really struck me, you know, driving

729
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: home going from this really beautiful kind of verdant swath

730
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: of California, leaving that behind and going out into the

731
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: more typical Central Valley California, which is just a big

732
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: flat expanse of big agriculture, you know, of crops, and so,

733
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: you know, I felt very grateful towards the people who

734
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: had set this land aside. And you know, there is

735
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: this sort of distance of hunters and birders now, uh

736
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: and uh, but it is it is strange to think

737
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 1: about the fact that some of our um park lands

738
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: and wilderness areas were originally set aside for people who

739
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: love to hunt. But of course there's still the funding

740
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: issue here, right, And that's something you get into in

741
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: the in the book that you have these conservation efforts

742
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: that are still still funded by hunting, funded uh, by phishing, etcetera.

743
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: And I guess you know, in a perfect world that

744
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: would all balance out, but there are cases, it seems

745
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: like where it raises the question is this the right approach?

746
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: Should there not be you know, more federal funding for conservation? Yeah?

747
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: I think that there tends to be a mistrust. You know,

748
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: if the money is coming from hunting and fishing, um,

749
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: isn't there temptation on the agency's part to put the

750
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: desires of those of their constituents first, you know, can

751
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: we trust them to be unbiased and neutral saviors of

752
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: the land. Um so, and there is there is there

753
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: has been talk of of of separating separating, making the

754
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: funding for some of these conservation efforts federal funding, making

755
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: it into pendant of hunting and fishing, you know, creating

756
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: some sort of body or pool of money that would

757
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: would be earmarked for conservation and and AND's just sort

758
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: of creating some distance between the two. So so, yeah,

759
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 1: that is a concern. And and I think it would

760
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: be great too for that to happen. Thank So here's

761
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: a question that might be a little odd, but I

762
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: wonder if you have thoughts about it. How do you

763
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: think about motive, the concept of motive differently in a

764
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: criminal justice context when the perpetrator of a crime is

765
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: not human, because a big part of human criminal justice

766
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: is about understanding and establishing motive, treating crimes differently based

767
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: on what the motive was or what the perpetrator's understanding was. Uh.

768
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: The thing about the internal brain states that motivate the

769
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: attacks of non human animals, it seems like you could

770
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: think about them either as like less complex than their

771
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 1: human equivalence. And thus may be easier to understand. Often

772
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: and animal is just feeling threatened in some way or

773
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: might be hungry or you could think about them is

774
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: maybe more obscure because animals are more alien to our

775
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: experience and they can't explain their motives in language. Yeah,

776
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: the question of motive, it's interesting. In India, that's factored in. Uh,

777
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 1: the cases are treated differently. Um. If it's if it's

778
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: um a predatory attack versus a defensive attack. UM. So

779
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: that's if there's if there's a series, there's kind of

780
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 1: a you know, three strikes rule. You know, if if

781
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: this if the animal is coming in and praying on

782
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: intentionally praying on livestock or or people. You know, that's

783
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 1: that's different from a defensive attack. That with leopards, there are,

784
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: as we've talked about before, there are predatory attacks where

785
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: the animal is specifically and intentionally going after a human.

786
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 1: But there are tremendous numbers of If you go further

787
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: south into the tea growing regions, which I also spent

788
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: some time the in the in the tea on the

789
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: tea plantations, Lepers sometimes sleep under the tea plants because

790
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 1: it's shady air and it's cooler, and the tea workers,

791
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,760
Speaker 1: the pluckers, people plucking the leaves will sometimes surprise an animal.

792
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: The animal will like leap up. Sometimes there's an injury,

793
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: rarely a fatality, but that's a that's a that's that's

794
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:30,479
Speaker 1: a defensive just an altercation that happened because the person

795
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: surprised the animal and it felt threatened. So those are

796
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: considered differently than a predatory attack. So there is that

797
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 1: distinction made. Um. You know, here in the US, when

798
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: an animal harms a person, it's it's it's considered a

799
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: public health threat, and it's it's typically that's that it

800
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: has crust a line. Regardless of whether the bear was

801
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: surprised and was defending itself, we tend to not make

802
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: that same distinction. If it harms or if it kills

803
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: a person, it will be destroyed. Even if it was

804
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: the person had a dog, the dog ran at the bear,

805
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 1: the bear got upset, the person sort of tried to intervene.

806
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: The bear turned and attack the person. You know that

807
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: there's no trial where we can we can set forth

808
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: the reality of the situation and why the bear might

809
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: have done it, and what the what the situation created

810
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,240
Speaker 1: and in a sense kind of come out a motive

811
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: or lack of motive. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. So in

812
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: the American context, um, the way we react to conflict

813
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: with animals is maybe less understanding of whether or not

814
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: they might be justified, and it is more just kind

815
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: of a pure utilitarian You know, if if an animal

816
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: has harmed a human or or or a pet or something,

817
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: it's just thereafter considered probably dangerous and thus usually is

818
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,760
Speaker 1: dealt with violently. Well, yeah, it's a it's a public

819
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: safety issue. When the public safety is threatened that you

820
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: know that that's gonna the people are going to be

821
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 1: the priority, not the animal. I mean, I did talk

822
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: to this a bear, a bear researcher who had spent

823
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 1: some time I believe it was in Nepal where they

824
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: have God. Now I'm forgetting which species it is. I

825
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: think there bears there bears that come in and they

826
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: raid the property and they they sometimes get into altercations

827
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 1: where someone is injured. And he said to the person

828
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: in the community who responds to when these attacks happened,

829
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: he said, if you saw a bear on a person,

830
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: would you shoot the bear? And the guy said, it's

831
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: not up to me. To decide which life is more important.

832
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: It was just a different you know, it's a it's

833
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: a it's a very different mindset of you know, the

834
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: value and the rights of animals versus humans. And you know,

835
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: I'm not I mean, it doesn't surprise me that we

836
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: in the United States have the rules that we do.

837
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's public safety. You know, it's if you

838
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: if your family is being you know, is in harms,

839
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: then that there's gonna be agencies that will come in

840
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: and try to mitigate that threat. That's what we do.

841
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: So again, the book is is fuzz When Nature Breaks

842
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: the Law by by Mary Roach And I want to

843
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: stress that we we didn't ask about anywhere close to

844
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: all of the animals or scenarios or topics that you

845
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: discussed in the book. It's just it's it's it's it's

846
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: just so I would like each chapter. Uh, you know,

847
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: it impressed me. There's so much discussed in the book.

848
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: It's an unsecured garbage can overflowing the trees. Oh, I

849
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: love that. Can I use that as a blurb on

850
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: the paperback? Yes? Well, but but I thought, just just

851
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: for anyone out there, like what if you were to

852
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: summarize like, what does the big take come you want

853
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: people to have from reading fuzz Uh? You know what

854
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: what would that be? Well, first of all, I know,

855
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: I want I want people to know it's a fun read.

856
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: It's not. I mean sometimes talking about these things it

857
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 1: can seem like a bit of a downer. It's animals

858
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: there sometimes ending up being destroyed. But now I try,

859
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 1: I try to keep things entertaining and light, and there's

860
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: lots of room for that in this book. Um. But

861
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: as a as a takeaway, um, you know, I just

862
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: hope that people because people have a tendency to just

863
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 1: especially since we use the words pest and nuisance, and

864
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,919
Speaker 1: I do use the word nuisance in the book as well.

865
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: We have this tendency to immediately when we've got an

866
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: animal coming onto our property doing something we don't want

867
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: it to do. We want to just pick up the

868
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 1: phone and call someone and make it go away. And

869
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: there's the way, there's there's things that prevent any further damage.

870
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: There's there's you know, you can exclude the animal, you

871
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: can call someone who actually has the welfare of the

872
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 1: animal in mind. And the Humane Society of the United

873
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: States is a great web page, species by species, here's

874
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: some things to do to solve resolve the problem without

875
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: harming or killing the animals. So I just I just

876
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: not not to be all on a soapbox or anything,

877
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: which just just to try to to calm down and

878
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: think about think about what you might do before you

879
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: call the wildlife control operator to set a trap and

880
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 1: let it go in a park and which is not

881
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: supposed to do, etcetera, or set a trap and um

882
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: or put out a very glue trap. I can't believe

883
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: they even sell those anymore. So that's not a very

884
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: short takeaway, is it. But that's that's what I guess.

885
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: I'd like people to just to think before they act

886
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: a little bit right. Well, and I do want to

887
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: concur that the book book is is very fun and

888
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: very funny, uh like all your books. I laughed, but

889
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 1: I also I also felt sad at times. It made

890
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: me think about things in a new way. So I

891
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 1: essentially I felt all the fields as the as the

892
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: young people say fully concur, well, thanks thank you, oh

893
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: thank you, thanks for taking time out of your data

894
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: to come on the show and discuss the book totally.

895
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, most welcome. Thank you all right, well,

896
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: thanks once more to Marry Roach for taking time out

897
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: of her day to come on the show and chat

898
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: with us. Her website if you want to learn more

899
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: about her and her work is Mary roach dot net.

900
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: And as mentioned in the episode, there's also this new

901
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: edition of Stiff out now as well with new cover arts,

902
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: so so look for that if you've never read it,

903
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: this will be a great Halloween season to pick it

904
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:26,959
Speaker 1: up or or Spook for that matter, both of those

905
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: I think would make for tremendous Halloween seasonal reads. In

906
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: the meantime, if you would like to check out other

907
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you can find

908
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: us wherever you get your podcast look for the Stuff

909
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed. We have core science

910
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: episodes on Tuesday and Thursday, Artifact episodes on Wednesday, uh

911
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: listener mail on Monday's. Friday is our time to cut

912
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 1: loose and talk about a weird film with Weird House Cinema,

913
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: and then on the weekend you get a rerun. Huge

914
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

915
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

916
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: with feed, act on this episode or any other to

917
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: suggest topic for the future, just to say hello. You

918
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

919
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production

920
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

921
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

922
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: you're listening to your favorite shows.