Speaker 1: So Samson, Samson, mal Mark Xcelion, Mark Moss, Thanks, thanks
Speaker 1: for sitting down with me. I want to talk about
Speaker 1: your big project that you're working on, which is the
Speaker 1: biggest project and probably the most important project, which is
Speaker 1: like sovereign state nation state nation state adoption. But let's
Speaker 1: start back a little bit on some backstory. So Blockstream. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: So Blockstream potentially arguably the biggest, most important kind of
Speaker 1: company in the bitcoin space.
Speaker 2: Still is one of the most important companies. Okay, and
Speaker 2: I was there, Yeah.
Speaker 1: You were there, So what was that? What were you
Speaker 1: doing there?
Speaker 2: So at Blockstream, I was the chief Strategy Officer, which
Speaker 2: kind of is a very broad title, and I was
Speaker 2: handling a variety of things, basically business, product and marketing,
Speaker 2: but trying to take the stuff that we're building and
Speaker 2: make it more palatable for the masses and accessible. So
Speaker 2: Blockstream is a very engineering heavy company, a lot of
Speaker 2: very talented skilled engineers at the protocol level, but then
Speaker 2: making something that people can use as a product or
Speaker 2: app on their phone, I think is a slightly different
Speaker 2: skill set. So that was what I was bringing to
Speaker 2: the table and trying to do that and also get
Speaker 2: more liquid adoption that's the bitcoin side chain, and I
Speaker 2: ended up working with Al Salvador on their bitcoin law
Speaker 2: push and the subsequent digital securities laws.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what products were they that blockstream graded that
Speaker 1: you were pushing for adoption?
Speaker 2: Basically everything, So green wallet it's a bitcoin and liquid wallet,
Speaker 2: the liquid network itself. We're trying to bootstrap the federation
Speaker 2: and get more members involved, more exchanges to integrate and
Speaker 2: basically be prepared for high fee environments where there is
Speaker 2: congestion and kind of like now, yeah, well it's past now,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it'll it comes up from time to time,
Speaker 2: and it shows that you still need that use case. Right,
Speaker 2: Lightning is good for payments, micro transactions, but not great
Speaker 2: for moving large amounts of bitcoin back and forth very rapidly.
Speaker 2: So again this is a great time to reiterate that
Speaker 2: you need tech like side chains to let people move quickly. Right,
Speaker 2: everyone can technic open a really big lightning channel to
Speaker 2: an exchange, but at that point you might as well
Speaker 2: just send it on chain R. So it just shows
Speaker 2: that it's very it's a very critical piece of bitcoin infrastructure.
Speaker 1: Liquid be in a side chain, yes.
Speaker 2: And then blockxom also had blocks from Satellite which is
Speaker 2: the satellite constellation in geosynchronous orbit that's broadcasting the Bitcoin
Speaker 2: blockchain all around us right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a big project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another critical piece of infrastructure. So that one
Speaker 2: actually helps prevent against network splits. So if an undersea
Speaker 2: cables cut to a particular region with a lot of mining, which.
Speaker 1: Is a potentially big attack.
Speaker 2: Vector exactly, So that would mitigate that because as long
Speaker 2: as one person there is running a Bitcoin node and
Speaker 2: then to the satellite, then they will kind of bridge
Speaker 2: all those transactions with the rest of the network. So
Speaker 2: that's another way to prevent high level attacks on the network.
Speaker 1: What about let's talk about that just for a second.
Speaker 1: So this is something that I've been thinking about. We
Speaker 1: saw something I will get into, but I mean, we're
Speaker 1: seeing the rise of censorship centers, of a movement of
Speaker 1: communication obviously payment technology, etc. And if it doesn't you
Speaker 1: don't have to go too far back. As a matter
Speaker 1: of fact, I think I saw like Chinese submarines were
Speaker 1: like hovering over, like Taiwan's like internet cables. I think
Speaker 1: I saw like a news headline, right. I think it
Speaker 1: was in the Arab Spring Egypt cut the internet going
Speaker 1: into Egypt, right to try to cut that down. So
Speaker 1: I think in the US there's somewhere three to five
Speaker 1: cables that give all the Internet here, so we just
Speaker 1: cut those off and then there's no Internet. And so
Speaker 1: that seems like it would be an attack on bitcoin,
Speaker 1: right if you'd cut off the Internet. So does the
Speaker 1: blockstream satellites do they prevent the help attack, help prevent
Speaker 1: against that attack or just against the bitcoin network attack?
Speaker 2: Probably just for bitcoin for bitcoin, Yeah, but it's it
Speaker 2: could be scaled up. I mean, I think Adam Beck
Speaker 2: is working on bidirectional colms through bloxtoom satellite, and in
Speaker 2: that case it could potentially help with other things, but
Speaker 2: it's never going to be able to sustain like a
Speaker 2: country level load of data transfer, right Yeah. So but
Speaker 2: I think that kind of attack is mitigated now with
Speaker 2: things like starlink, right, so you're not completely dependent on
Speaker 2: terrestrial internet. So blocktoam satellite was the first step to
Speaker 2: kind of decentralize away from trustrial internet, and then you
Speaker 2: have starlink as a second layer on that.
Speaker 1: But in regards to the in regards to the just
Speaker 1: the blockstream satellites, could you still transact bitcoin? You just
Speaker 1: can't use the Internet. I'm not saying like the whole
Speaker 1: country move onto Internet, Like we have starlink for that,
Speaker 1: but would you still able to use bitcoin?
Speaker 2: Do that? You can keep your note in sync, but
Speaker 2: if you want to send the transaction, you'll have to
Speaker 2: find a way to get it over SMS or something else.
Speaker 2: Got it until Adam finishes bi directional got it? Okay?
Speaker 1: Okay? All right? So those are the big projects.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what else was there? Blockshream mining was another thing
Speaker 2: that we started.
Speaker 1: Like kind of one of the later projects, right.
Speaker 2: Not that late. I think that started around the time
Speaker 2: I joined because I kind of foresaw that China was
Speaker 2: gonna clamp down on mining, so we wanted to start
Speaker 2: that movement of hash rate out of China. I think
Speaker 2: we're one of the first to set up in North
Speaker 2: America actually. And what else is there? At Blockstream? It's
Speaker 2: been a while since i've shield blockstream stuff. I think
Speaker 2: there's gotta be one more lightning of course. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: the early blockstream project, but a lot of the things
Speaker 2: also blo info it was the one of the first
Speaker 2: really important block explorer projects too, because this is another
Speaker 2: potential attack factor too, like coming off of the block
Speaker 2: size wars, it was actually a bit of a precarious
Speaker 2: environment because the big blockers were controlling all the block explorers,
Speaker 2: so they could just flip it to I don't know,
Speaker 2: be cash and say this is the real chain, and
Speaker 2: you'll confuse a large chunk of the world thinking well, yeah,
Speaker 2: my transaction is not there while it's on the real
Speaker 2: bitcoin now right right. So having that and then mempool
Speaker 2: space coming out I think helps with that because that
Speaker 2: mitigates one more attack factor. But if you look at
Speaker 2: it from a high level, a lot of the stuff
Speaker 2: that blockstream is working on is to kind of augment
Speaker 2: Bitcoin and mitigate high level attacks.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the high level attacks. Because you
Speaker 1: were around and somewhat instrumental during the block size wars,
Speaker 1: the nerd wars, the civil wars or whatever, right, which
Speaker 1: was basically trying to do that change the block size.
Speaker 1: So what was your position in that? I mean, I
Speaker 1: know you were someone instrumental. Explain that and it seems
Speaker 1: like that same conversation is popping back up again today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's a it's a bit less of a
Speaker 2: threat these days. I mean, it's just a bunch of
Speaker 2: guys with NFTs, so it's a bit different. Back then,
Speaker 2: it was almost every single miner, mining pool, and almost
Speaker 2: every exchange, so it's a very different landscape today than
Speaker 2: it was back then. But yeah, like you're saying it
Speaker 2: was an attack, it was people trying to change the
Speaker 2: bitcoin protocol and force that through through just the being
Speaker 2: big players in the space. Right you had coin Base,
Speaker 2: blockchain Info, bitmain basically everybody, and then you had just
Speaker 2: a few bulwarks of resistance, like Blockstream is one. But
Speaker 2: Blockstream was under heavy attack at the time because it
Speaker 2: was the RBTC guy saying blockstream controls Bitcoin, so they
Speaker 2: can't really do much, right, They're kind of pinned down.
Speaker 2: And then I was a COO at BTC China at
Speaker 2: the time, and I came in and basically allied with
Speaker 2: Adam and Blockstream, and it was a credible outside voice
Speaker 2: that kind of said, yeah, they don't control bitcoin, No
Speaker 2: one controls bitcoin. And then I think another exchange that
Speaker 2: was on the side of fighting for small blocks was bitfinex,
Speaker 2: and they opened up some of the markets that later
Speaker 2: on helped kill some of those forks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so in that I mean basically the chain was
Speaker 1: forked and so we got the big blockchain BTC or
Speaker 1: b BCH a ry and then now the BSV hard
Speaker 1: to keep trap BCH. So that's the big blocks, and
Speaker 1: then we kept the small blocks and the chains forked
Speaker 1: and so then it was about who was going to
Speaker 1: choose which chain to run with? Yeah, and so then
Speaker 1: with these big players, which one were they going to
Speaker 1: start signaling? Is that kind of how went down?
Speaker 2: Well, more or less they were. There were several forks
Speaker 2: that they were supporting. I think it was like bitcoin XT,
Speaker 2: Bitcoin Unlimited, Bitcoin Classic. It's like with two x and
Speaker 2: then be cash came. But they were just pushing every
Speaker 2: single one trying to find one that's stuck, and none
Speaker 2: of them stuck and none of them succeeded.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the fight was over trying to increase the
Speaker 1: block size. So you get more through put on that,
Speaker 1: do you think? Because blockstream was already working on Liquid
Speaker 1: as a side chain, So then they realized that the
Speaker 1: scaling solution was not to increase the block size, but
Speaker 1: was to do some sort of side chain like Lightning
Speaker 1: or Liquid. Is that why I kind of where Blockstreams
Speaker 1: kind of ideology was on that they realized the scaling
Speaker 1: solution was something different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think it's Adam's thinking, which is very
Speaker 2: based on computer science, right, which is yet to scale
Speaker 2: technology and layers. Otherwise you can end up with gigabyte
Speaker 2: sized blocks or terabyte blocks, and then the network just
Speaker 2: centralizes again back to data centers, right, which is kind
Speaker 2: of the problem with ethereum. Right. But if you want
Speaker 2: everything else, yeah, if you want bitcoin to be decentralized,
Speaker 2: you have to keep the block small. But that was
Speaker 2: the battle on the surface, which was we want to
Speaker 2: scale it to help people, or as Roger Vera would say,
Speaker 2: so everyone could buy coffee with bitcoin right.
Speaker 1: On the main chain, on the main chain, because I
Speaker 1: need my coffee to be immutable for all of history.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what we're seeing.
Speaker 1: Today, Like I don't want to be censored on my
Speaker 1: cup of coffee exactly.
Speaker 2: It's so important. Yeah, but we're seeing a little of
Speaker 2: that today with the pictures on the chain, with the
Speaker 2: ordinals and all the other stuff, right, Like, you don't
Speaker 2: need your picture in the chain and immutable for all
Speaker 2: time because that can be copied. What you really want
Speaker 2: is a certificate or a pointer or a timestamp. Really,
Speaker 2: but that's a we can get in that later if
Speaker 2: you want. But the fight was on the surface level
Speaker 2: that we need to help if you help everybody and
Speaker 2: scale bitcoin, right, But I think at a deeper level
Speaker 2: it was about fighting to change the protocol and using
Speaker 2: a very innoculous, seemingly friendly, helpful way to do so,
Speaker 2: which was because we want to buy coffee and let
Speaker 2: the unbanged to use bitcoin. But if you can change
Speaker 2: the block size, you can change everything else. So it's
Speaker 2: a very slippery slope and it would set a very
Speaker 2: bad precedent that bitcoin can just.
Speaker 1: Like we were talking about before we start recording, just
Speaker 1: like with ethereum. So Ethereum changed the monetary policy to
Speaker 1: be the ultrasound money.
Speaker 2: They can change to be anything they want, but.
Speaker 1: The fact that they changed it means they're not exactly Yeah,
Speaker 1: so by changing to become that, the change actually proved
Speaker 1: that they can't be that.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the FED could become ultrasound money too. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but they can also print and they can tighten. They
Speaker 2: can do whatever they want. So it's the same with theorem.
Speaker 2: They can change it at will. But the block size
Speaker 2: war was too was over that discussion like can it
Speaker 2: be changed? And the answer is no.
Speaker 1: Yeah, on the ordinal piece. To your point, putting the
Speaker 1: jpeg in there seems a little silly. Putting the King
Speaker 1: James Bible in there doesn't seem so silly, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: people today, over the last decades, decades, two decades, have
Speaker 1: been literally risking their lives, laying their lives down to
Speaker 1: sneak a physical copy of a Bible into China or
Speaker 1: North Korea. And now it can just be in the
Speaker 1: censorship resistant network. Whatever they want to censor. Three D
Speaker 1: gun schematics could be in there. So while the jpeg
Speaker 1: seems a little silly, I mean, there could be good
Speaker 1: use cases I suppose for that type of script. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I think Michael Saylor said that he'd put his
Speaker 2: will on the chain, and.
Speaker 1: The will would be a good example.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that could be good too, But I think you
Speaker 2: can get the same effect if the If there's no
Speaker 2: censorship of the thing, then you don't need to put
Speaker 2: it on. But if there is, then maybe it would help.
Speaker 1: Right, But if you need censorship resistance and immutability.
Speaker 2: If you need censorship resistance, you need. But most use cases,
Speaker 2: like the will, I don't think it's cool, But no
Speaker 2: one's going to censor your will.
Speaker 1: What about those movies you know where like they sneak
Speaker 1: into the library and they get the dad's will and
Speaker 1: they change it.
Speaker 2: Well, you can do a timestem.
Speaker 1: You can have it your a journey.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can hash it, right, So you just
Speaker 2: embed the hash, right, and that solves ninety nine point
Speaker 2: ninety nine of all use cases.
Speaker 1: Right, And embedding a hash would then point to the
Speaker 1: location where it's at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could do that too, but the key thing
Speaker 2: is you want to hash it so you can show
Speaker 2: that this was the actual original document, right, And that's
Speaker 2: enough for ninety nine point nine percent of every single
Speaker 2: use case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a good point. Not everything needs to
Speaker 1: be decentralized. Not everything needs to be censorsive resistant or
Speaker 1: immutable like a cup of coffee. And I think that's
Speaker 1: one thing that kind of swept over the whole, you know,
Speaker 1: blockchain world is like, not everything has to be decentralized.
Speaker 1: JPEGs don't need to be decentralized. Yeah, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of reasons why things actually shouldn't be decentralized or and
Speaker 1: specifically like achieving consensus for example, like emails sort of decentralized,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't need to achieve consensus to work correct
Speaker 1: something like that. So let's fast forward past that. So
Speaker 1: you were working there, you guys started working on this
Speaker 1: whole volcano bond thing, and I don't know if this started.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I don't have any inner working
Speaker 1: knowledge of blockstream, but just you know, following along at
Speaker 1: the back on podcast, et cetera, you launched this mining thing,
Speaker 1: which then you kind of had a bond or some
Speaker 1: sort of security for the mining.
Speaker 2: The BMN, the blockstream mining note.
Speaker 1: Okay, the big struck. Yeah, okay, did that kind of
Speaker 1: then move into the kind of volcano mining in nel
Speaker 1: Salad or is that kind of how that started or.
Speaker 2: What kind of So the volcano stuff, it kind of
Speaker 2: started as a meme because people say, oh, you have volcanoes,
Speaker 2: you can mine bitcoin, so you should start a volcano mine.
Speaker 2: And then I think Alistair Millen Max Kaiser said make
Speaker 2: a volcano bond. But it was just like an idea.
Speaker 2: But because we had constructed the blockstream mining note, I
Speaker 2: kind of took that and created the actual structure for
Speaker 2: what the bond could look like where they could potentially
Speaker 2: get rid of their debt in ten years by creating
Speaker 2: this bitcoin bond, which would be so the bigcoin bond
Speaker 2: is the superstructure, and the superstructure is really just half
Speaker 2: of the funds raised would go to buy bitcoin, hold
Speaker 2: it for five years, and then share sell it and
Speaker 2: share the upside. The other half goes into doing a
Speaker 2: revenue generating productive activity. So it's like also to be
Speaker 2: the best bond ever because it's backed half by hardest
Speaker 2: asset on the planet and the other half is revenue generating,
Speaker 2: whereas most bonds are just pure debt, pure debt and
Speaker 2: nothing backing it except for hope. So I think it's
Speaker 2: a more pragmatic way to create this type of instrument
Speaker 2: as we move to a future where money could evaporate
Speaker 2: and disappear one day. So you denominate your debt in dollars,
Speaker 2: but you back it with hard assets and a productive
Speaker 2: revenue generating activity, which in al Salvador's case would be
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining. But that can be transplanted to other places too,
Speaker 2: So there's interest in Ecuador and Costa Rica in hydro bonds,
Speaker 2: so using hydropower to mine bitcoin, and potentially you could.
Speaker 1: Volcano bonds hydro bonds that's really just a power source,
Speaker 1: but ultimate it's a bitcoin bond.
Speaker 2: Well, technically you could do it with anything. It just
Speaker 2: has to be a revenue generating activity to cover the
Speaker 2: coupon of the bond. So right now we're talking to
Speaker 2: some people in Africa, and you know there's tons of
Speaker 2: rare earth minerals in Africa. So you could construct a
Speaker 2: bitcoin bond where the revenue generating activity is mining, like
Speaker 2: real mining to extract rare earth minerals for whatever, and
Speaker 2: then you still have that bitcoin component, so that's.
Speaker 1: The holding bitcoin and then of the revenue generating activity.
Speaker 1: So then they started picking up steam in El Salvador,
Speaker 1: but then did they get put on hold? Right?
Speaker 2: So the president, well, we announced it together and it
Speaker 2: was supposed to go out like in spring twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: and then they got caught up fighting the gangs and
Speaker 2: trying to stabilize that. And I think there there was
Speaker 2: a piece that was needed before that, which was the
Speaker 2: digital securities loss. That was something that we were advising
Speaker 2: them on. Sala could pass that, but that would allow
Speaker 2: them to issue the bonds themselves under their own regulatory framework,
Speaker 2: and that has passed I think a few months ago,
Speaker 2: so potentially they could come out end of this year,
Speaker 2: and I think the bitfec's team is more involved with
Speaker 2: them now on the issuance, so I think they said
Speaker 2: something like maybe end of this year they will do something,
Speaker 2: but I'm not too involved in that anymore.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, but you saw enough of that and enough
Speaker 1: potential that you decided to leave Blockstream and go move
Speaker 1: your career onto helping nation states adopt bitcoin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's Jen three.
Speaker 1: That's where you're at now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not just nation states. We want to
Speaker 2: accelerate hyper bitcoonization or accelerate bitcoin adoption around the world.
Speaker 2: So while Blockstream is one of the most important companies
Speaker 2: in the space and they're doing excellent work, what I
Speaker 2: want to do is get more get bitcoin in the
Speaker 2: hands of the masses. So we're trying to relaunch our people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the people.
Speaker 1: So we're reading and that is that a top down
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I bottom up or top down?
Speaker 2: It's both. So right now we're doing all the nations
Speaker 2: state stuff we're doing is the top down stuff, engaging
Speaker 2: with politicians and governments. But at the bottom up level,
Speaker 2: we want to launch Aqua and start to get more
Speaker 2: adoption and focus on Latam first. But the angle that
Speaker 2: we're taking is that we want to be a bitcoin
Speaker 2: and stable coin wallet because right now in latinin they
Speaker 2: are seeking dollar denominated value, so they're using tether already
Speaker 2: at big time. It's dominant in Latin America. A lot
Speaker 2: of people in the US don't really understand that because
Speaker 2: you know, you have excellent banking and everything. Well maybe
Speaker 2: not anymore.
Speaker 1: But at one of the meetings last night, I talked
Speaker 1: to somebody from Central America, maybe maybe Latam and he
Speaker 1: was saying the exact same thing. They're moving, you know,
Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars. He's like, we're doing it over tether.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's true. But most bitcoin wallets don't have tether,
Speaker 2: right because they're Bitcoin and lightning. Yeah, but we plan
Speaker 2: to have bitcoin as your savings account, and then we
Speaker 2: have a spending account section which is tether and Lightning
Speaker 2: and liquid.
Speaker 1: Now that would be a custodial wallet.
Speaker 2: No, non custodia because Tether is actually on liquid. So
Speaker 2: because we're a bitcoin and liquid wallet, you have everything
Speaker 2: in one view. And we're hoping that we'll take away
Speaker 2: some of the transaction volume and aum from the ship
Speaker 2: chains and bring it onto liquid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can already use stable coins on ethereum, right,
Speaker 1: so you could self custody that yourself and the other
Speaker 1: chains as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then you have to use ethereum.
Speaker 1: Right. So this way you can put using liquid, you
Speaker 1: can put it on the Bitcoin chain and.
Speaker 2: It's on the liquid chain, right, but it.
Speaker 1: Would just a side chain of Bitcoin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the wallet supports built, so you generate one
Speaker 2: seed and it will spawn your Bitcoin wallet and your
Speaker 2: liquid wallet.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, so that's the big project right now, and
Speaker 1: that's that's important because people in Latin are really for anywhere.
Speaker 1: I mean, unfortunately, I think we agree there's an evolutionary
Speaker 1: process to bitcoin and bitcoin adoption and the evolution from
Speaker 1: a collectible store value medium exchange. And so for shorter
Speaker 1: term purchases, stable coins are still a pretty good solution,
Speaker 1: especially in emerging markets. Is that kind of the theory.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But it's more that I think there's a bigger
Speaker 2: cognitive leap you have to make to get into bitcoin,
Speaker 2: whereas for them they're already seeking dollars, right, paper dollars
Speaker 2: or any way they can get them. Yeah, anyway they
Speaker 2: can get them. So you're kind of just giving them
Speaker 2: the thing that they're looking for already, and you don't
Speaker 2: have to say you should get bitcoin. But when they
Speaker 2: install Aqua, they'll see, oh there's bitcoin that's hop there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's for saving. Yeah, this is for spending.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But ironically, like people in developing in the Global South
Speaker 2: with runaway inflation, for them taking dollars to saving, right,
Speaker 2: But at least we can get them onto the track
Speaker 2: of using bitcoin and bitcoin side chain.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you know, I kind of have this theory.
Speaker 1: It's not really a theory. I think it's just human nature,
Speaker 1: is that we don't really move until the pain's high enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I believe in chiropractic, but I don't typically go unless
Speaker 1: my back hurt's reel bad, right, or like someone that
Speaker 1: needs rehab, they don't want to go to rehab unless
Speaker 1: they hit rock bottom kind of thing, right, And so
Speaker 1: in the US, most of us don't have pain high enough.
Speaker 1: In Canada, during the Trucker rally, the pain was en
Speaker 1: But in Latam the pain is high enough. Right, they're
Speaker 1: witnessing double triple digit inflation. So like you don't need
Speaker 1: to explain why they need to get out of their
Speaker 1: fiat currency. Like into something else.
Speaker 2: Well, the other thing is a lot of the central
Speaker 2: bank regulations don't let them get out of their currency too, right,
Speaker 2: there's limit, yeah, capital controls. But also in Argentina they
Speaker 2: have their official rate which is like half of the
Speaker 2: real rate. Right, so if you wanted to do it too,
Speaker 2: you're gonna get cut right at the start.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? So the real rate,
Speaker 1: being like a black market rate, is different than the
Speaker 1: official rate.
Speaker 2: It depends which way you're looking at. If I say
Speaker 2: the real rate is the I think it's called the
Speaker 2: blue rate, right, they call it blue.
Speaker 1: It's not black.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not black, but it's the rate on the street,
Speaker 2: the street rate. And then you have the official rate,
Speaker 2: which is really bad. And that's the one at the bank.
Speaker 1: Okay, to exchange their local currency to a dollar.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Argentine pays of two dollars, right, Okay.
Speaker 1: So they give you a horrible exchange rate, but on
Speaker 1: the street you get a much high rate. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's to prevent people from going into dollars. And
Speaker 1: it's probably not that easy to go into dollars.
Speaker 2: It's actually quite easy. There's a ton of money changes everywhere. Okay,
Speaker 2: But then you won't be able to do it at
Speaker 2: the bank, right, So you're going to you know, various
Speaker 2: streets they're called quava caves, and you go in there
Speaker 2: and you change your money and they take tether and
Speaker 2: dollars or whatever.
Speaker 1: Okay, so then people are using tether. They have tether wallets,
Speaker 1: they just not have a wall that has tether and
Speaker 1: bitcoin in both.
Speaker 2: Maybe there's some shit coin wallets that have bitcoin, but
Speaker 2: you know it's not ideal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, So that's the plan. So then
Speaker 1: that's like a decentralized approach from the bottom up. Now
Speaker 1: when you talk about like from top down nation state
Speaker 1: adoptions specifically going to like the governments, then you're trying
Speaker 1: to get them to go to like you know what
Speaker 1: else Overeigty did making it like a legal tender. And
Speaker 1: I hear people in the United States going, you know,
Speaker 1: we should make it legal tender or whatever, And I think,
Speaker 1: does it need to be legal tender? Because whatever we
Speaker 1: want to be used as money is money. If I
Speaker 1: want to trade you this iPhone or I want to
Speaker 1: give you three hours of my labor, like we say,
Speaker 1: what the medium of exchange is?
Speaker 2: Right to a point, the benefit of legal tender is
Speaker 2: that it removes cap gains, right, So that is really
Speaker 2: what you need. Legal tender is cool, it's an endorsement
Speaker 2: and you can do all.
Speaker 1: These nations in Latam have the cap gains issue if
Speaker 1: it's not legal tender.
Speaker 2: Some of them okay, but at least in the US
Speaker 2: and Canada. Right, technically, if you if we did the
Speaker 2: trade phone for bitcoin, then it's a taxable, taxable event, right,
Speaker 2: and that prevents bitcoin from being used as money. But
Speaker 2: if a country has no cap gains, like Switzerland, they
Speaker 2: could just adopt bitcoin and say yeah, because there's nothing
Speaker 2: stopping you, right.
Speaker 1: But in Latam or Argentina, Peru has massive inflation going
Speaker 1: on right now, obviously Venezuela, et cetera. I mean, they
Speaker 1: could just start using bitcoin without it being legal tender.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can always use bitcoin. The question is
Speaker 2: how above board is it? And can someone go after
Speaker 2: you for using bitcoin?
Speaker 1: So it's better curious in those countries that you're working
Speaker 1: with down there, that's kind of your target market, the
Speaker 1: Latam countries. So in those countries, do you need to
Speaker 1: kind of have that top down approval of it for
Speaker 1: the people to be able to start using it.
Speaker 2: Well, not really, because you already have communities that use it, right,
Speaker 2: But I think getting the top down is beneficial because
Speaker 2: of two reasons. First, you make it above board, so
Speaker 2: every transaction you do is completely legitimate and no one
Speaker 2: can come after you for paying tax on whatever. Right.
Speaker 2: The second is mitigation of nation state level attacks. So
Speaker 2: my thinking is if we get them to adopt bitcoin,
Speaker 2: embrace bitcoin, mine bitcoin, have a bitcoin bond, they're less
Speaker 2: likely to attack the network.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: If they're a minor, they're probably not going to ban mining. Right,
Speaker 2: if they're holding bitcoin as a treasury asset, they're not
Speaker 2: going to ban non custodial wallets what was the term again,
Speaker 2: self hosted wallets, right, like they are in Europe. So
Speaker 2: I think you have to engage on some level with
Speaker 2: the governments otherwise you end up with very poor policy decisions,
Speaker 2: like in ther Conunion. So it's sort of like defending
Speaker 2: bitcoin by educating people in the government.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it seems like in the G seven countries
Speaker 1: at least, there's a massive attack. To your point, Europe's
Speaker 1: trying to ban self hosted wallets. We're seeing a rise
Speaker 1: of just censorship period, Right, they want a sensor movement.
Speaker 1: We talked about being in Canada right sensoring movement. The
Speaker 1: G twenty agreed to putting a passport system in health
Speaker 1: passport system in as the G twenty censorship of information.
Speaker 1: So now the G seven have all put in laws
Speaker 1: against disinformation and whatever, hateful speeches, et cetera. And now
Speaker 1: censorship on financial transactions. So lots of laws going in
Speaker 1: in Europe to your point, self hosted Wallace potentially, and
Speaker 1: now the US with the restrict Act. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just insanity. But that's like the G seven, Like we
Speaker 1: don't really see that happening in Latam or are you
Speaker 1: is there a fight going on down there? Or do
Speaker 1: you think this is maybe where game theory starts playing out,
Speaker 1: where like good, okay, G seven, G twenty, go ahead
Speaker 1: and do that to yourselves, but it's going to grow
Speaker 1: down here.
Speaker 2: Well, it's definitely going to grow down there because I
Speaker 2: think it's like you're saying, like, unless the pain is
Speaker 2: high enough, people aren't going to do something. And the
Speaker 2: pain in the Global South has been high for a
Speaker 2: very long time, so they're just fine looking for a
Speaker 2: way to get out. But until the advent of bitcoins,
Speaker 2: is no way out right, there was no there's no
Speaker 2: there's no exit, no exit, but now there is an exit.
Speaker 2: So the fight I think, like the G seven countries
Speaker 2: are basically doing it to themselves, right, whether they understand
Speaker 2: it or not, they're just killing themselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But the fight I think in Latin will be against
Speaker 2: the global organizations like the World Bank and the IMF,
Speaker 2: which are trying to prevent them from getting out of
Speaker 2: that debt spiral, right, or getting out of debt slavery.
Speaker 2: So in Argentina, you know, the IMF a couple of
Speaker 2: years back said we'll give you a loan, but you
Speaker 2: shouldn't adopt Well, they said crypto, but no one cares
Speaker 2: about crypto. Is about bitcoin. They said, you know, don't
Speaker 2: adopt crypto and we'll give you a loan. And they said, okay,
Speaker 2: But I think there's a new election coming. There's actually
Speaker 2: a lot of elections coming up in Latin, and that
Speaker 2: means there's a big opportunity for the landscape to just
Speaker 2: change completely.
Speaker 1: So they might are most of those elections going like communist, socialist.
Speaker 1: I mean what we saw in Chile, they tried to
Speaker 1: you know, they adopted a card carrying communist with a
Speaker 1: new communist constitution in Brazil like that seemed to be
Speaker 1: a pretty socialist communist you know, coup that happened there, whatever,
Speaker 1: if you want to call it that. Are you seeing that?
Speaker 1: I mean, is that? Do you think that's hurtful for
Speaker 1: adopting something like bitcoin.
Speaker 2: Well, you have to run with the tides, like the
Speaker 2: political tide will change, yeah, and sometimes it's changing for
Speaker 2: the worst, like in your examples. But in Argentina they
Speaker 2: have a pro bitcoin candidate, Heavier Milla, and he's spoken
Speaker 2: about bitcoin in the past and he could potentially be
Speaker 2: a champion a bitcoin. I know there is a potentially
Speaker 2: pro bitcoin presidential candidate in Guatemala.
Speaker 1: We have two in the US.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but one on both sides of the aisle.
Speaker 2: It's pretty amazing, it is. So it's hard to say,
Speaker 2: but we'll have to see. And this is why we've
Speaker 2: been making trips like Jen three, We've been going on
Speaker 2: these missions and trying to engage the next potential presidential candidates.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what's your prediction there? Which which countries do
Speaker 1: you think seem to be the most favorable and maybe
Speaker 1: might be not a prediction as to which one is
Speaker 1: the next one, but which ones, which one seemed to
Speaker 1: be the most open, most favorable, Which ones you think
Speaker 1: will probably move into some sort of maybe not even
Speaker 1: full adoption, but acceptance.
Speaker 2: It's hard to say. I can't predict the outcome of
Speaker 2: the elections, but there are certain countries that could potentially
Speaker 2: adopt bitcoin. So I guess the question is what does
Speaker 2: adopt bitcoin mean? If it means bitcoin legal tender, and
Speaker 2: then I have no idea because it's really hard. Al
Speaker 2: Salvador is a unique oddity I think, in which they
Speaker 2: had a presisd Boo Kelly has a super majority of
Speaker 2: the Congress, right, so they can pass the laws very easily,
Speaker 2: whereas in most other countries it's very hard to get
Speaker 2: anything passed. So if you ask me which country is
Speaker 2: going to put out a bitcoin law, I have no idea.
Speaker 2: But I think there are countries that could adopt bitcoin.
Speaker 2: And when I say adopt bitcoin, it's more broad. It
Speaker 2: could be mining, it could be with a bond or
Speaker 2: just having bitcoined, a treasury asset, or a law. It
Speaker 2: could be any of those things. So Guatemala, I think
Speaker 2: is interesting because they have a law already called divisis,
Speaker 2: which is they allow you to use any foreign currency
Speaker 2: and with bitcoin as legal tender, and al Salvador it
Speaker 2: is a foreign currency. So that standing of bitcoin from
Speaker 2: Alsalva or adopting it is actually very important because that
Speaker 2: lets us do more interesting things with it because it
Speaker 2: has formal recognition. So Guatemala, they don't actually need a law.
Speaker 2: Someone just has to say, basically interpreting the current law,
Speaker 2: that bitcoin can be used for payments and everything, and
Speaker 2: then you're done. And we're working with some people in
Speaker 2: Mexico to see if the Mexican law would afford that
Speaker 2: same option. And Panama is also interesting too because they
Speaker 2: don't have a central bank and it was founded on
Speaker 2: the premise that you can use whatever money you choose to.
Speaker 2: So Guatemala and Panama could potentially be the next ones.
Speaker 2: But they would be easy because they don't need to
Speaker 2: do anything. Someone just has to say, yes, you can
Speaker 2: use bitcoin, Yes you can use bitcoin, and you're done.
Speaker 1: So seeing as you've left blockstream, you've gone over here.
Speaker 1: This is your thing now now a nation state option
Speaker 1: top down, bottom up, and hitting both those approaches actively
Speaker 1: working with the governments, et cetera, trying to I don't
Speaker 1: want to say influence, educate education, educate potential people, right,
Speaker 1: the education you don't need to influence if you can
Speaker 1: educate them properly, I guess right. So then what is
Speaker 1: what's your goal? I mean, what's the outlook here?
Speaker 2: I mean the goal is to ensure an orderly transition
Speaker 2: into a bitcoin standard. So if you look at the
Speaker 2: world today, it's still mostly on FIAT, but you and
Speaker 2: I both believe we're probably moving to a bitcoin standard ultimately, right,
Speaker 2: The question is when? On what timeframe?
Speaker 1: I think it's certin We would certainly agree that all
Speaker 1: fiats are dying and they're on their last legs and
Speaker 1: there has to be a replacement, and there's not another
Speaker 1: Fiat replacement, so what is it? So then it's almost
Speaker 1: like we need a decentralized ledger that nobody can control.
Speaker 1: It's almost like that.
Speaker 2: So if we are going there, then it's better to
Speaker 2: It depends on your time horizons too, so I'm thinking
Speaker 2: five to ten years, and in five to ten years
Speaker 2: that's pretty quick actually, and it means that countries need
Speaker 2: to start adopting now and having some sort of bitcoin
Speaker 2: strategy in place, because when it comes time when the
Speaker 2: shit hit the fan. You don't want people to try
Speaker 2: to figure out how do I get my feet into bitcoin?
Speaker 2: That's just mass chaos. And you've seen this historically through
Speaker 2: demonetization events India and twenty sixteen had one. They pulled
Speaker 2: some notes out of circulation. People actually died because they
Speaker 2: couldn't pay for medical procedures, or they died from exposure
Speaker 2: from lining up trying to convert their old bill to
Speaker 2: the new bill. But just take that and imagine all
Speaker 2: fiat moneys are now failing rapidly and people need to
Speaker 2: get into bitcoin. You need to have all those rails
Speaker 2: in place, all that infrastructure in place, and the government
Speaker 2: needs to know what to do because they control a
Speaker 2: lot of the money still. So our thinking is if
Speaker 2: we can get them onto some sort of bitcoin adoption strategy,
Speaker 2: now we can mitigate that chaos down the road, yeah,
Speaker 2: and have an orderly transition and people can move into bitcoin.
Speaker 2: So parallel tracks. So like Al Salvador, they're still on
Speaker 2: the dollar, but they have bitcoin. You could be Argentina
Speaker 2: and be dollarized and with bitcoin, or you could be
Speaker 2: Mexico and have the Mexican peso and bitcoin. Sure, and
Speaker 2: this in my view, is the best outcome we can
Speaker 2: get for the next few years to have parallel tracks
Speaker 2: in multiple places.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And a lot of that could be driven
Speaker 1: bottom up, I mean, if there's demand for it. So
Speaker 1: in Mexico they have the peso, but they also accept
Speaker 1: dollars in a lot of places, right, not everywhere, and
Speaker 1: they get the real places they won't. But I also
Speaker 1: really like the bitcoin bond situation because now any country
Speaker 1: that has excess energy could instantly start making revenue. And
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of interesting because if you look
Speaker 1: back through history, it was like the nations that had
Speaker 1: natural resources, you know, typically oil that flourish because they
Speaker 1: had that cheap amount of energy. And now you have
Speaker 1: a nation like Al Salvador who has really no natural
Speaker 1: resources bananas or whatever, right, but they have this volcano.
Speaker 1: Was a volcano good for Well, now they could create
Speaker 1: revenue off of that. And then you look at like
Speaker 1: the landscape of like the South Pacific and all the
Speaker 1: atolls that have volcanoes on them, and like the ability
Speaker 1: for them to start generating revenue off of that. So
Speaker 1: it seems like the greed aspect is always a good angle,
Speaker 1: right If governments can create excess revenue and potentially raise
Speaker 1: extra revenue off of bonds without having to go through
Speaker 1: the IMF or whatever like.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the biggest benefit of the bonds is
Speaker 2: that they can raise the capital to tap into those resources.
Speaker 2: So Al Salvador has to expand their geothermal generation capacity still, right,
Speaker 2: they only have a few plants right now, but they
Speaker 2: have a lot of geothermal potential, right, But the bond
Speaker 2: would let them build new plants, and then once the
Speaker 2: plants are built, they're good for fifty eighty years. And
Speaker 2: that's all bitcoin. And I think that transformation is not
Speaker 2: yet fully appreciated by most people around the world. They
Speaker 2: don't yet understand that bitcoin is now money, and money
Speaker 2: is now bitcoin. Bitcoin is information and energy. So if
Speaker 2: you have energy, you have money. Right. So the Middle
Speaker 2: East has lots of oil and they've figured it out
Speaker 2: pretty easily. Well, oil is money. We can build cities
Speaker 2: in the desert. And in the case of the UAE,
Speaker 2: they actually pay you to be AMORTI. You don't pay taxes,
Speaker 2: you get paid. And this can actually happen in many
Speaker 2: places around the world. It could happen in Al Salvador
Speaker 2: and Indonesia in the Philippines. So Indonesia and the Philippines
Speaker 2: have a massive amount of geothermal energy. So if they
Speaker 2: can just tap into that, they could be the next
Speaker 2: Dubai or whatever. Right, Yeah, and I think this potential
Speaker 2: is what we're trying to educate them on align their incentives.
Speaker 2: So if you think about bitcoin from a very high level,
Speaker 2: this is a piece of software that brilliantly aligns incentives
Speaker 2: across the board between end users, miners, and everyone else. Right,
Speaker 2: And we can kind of take that and amplify that
Speaker 2: for nation states too and show them, well, you can
Speaker 2: mine bitcoin and you don't need to tax anybody, because
Speaker 2: every country right now is looking for ways to generate
Speaker 2: tax revenue. Sure, so why not just tap into what
Speaker 2: you have? And I think with the Global seuth they're
Speaker 2: more amenable to this concept. Right, like the G seven,
Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of hope. Canada has massive
Speaker 2: amounts of hydropower. Right Technically, in Canada you could fit
Speaker 2: three entire bitcoin networks. Wow, and just mine in Canada.
Speaker 2: There's enough energy for that.
Speaker 1: But Canada has no gold either, So yeah, for them,
Speaker 1: we have zero goal.
Speaker 2: So until there's a seismic shift in the government, then
Speaker 2: I don't have much hope, but in the end, necessity drives.
Speaker 1: A lot of change back where the pain's high enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll see what happens. Yeah, hopeful.
Speaker 1: No, I love it, you know. You back to Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 1: I mean the benefits they have is they can get
Speaker 1: the oil on the ground and they can ship the oil.
Speaker 1: But you can't ship energy from a geothermal unit, like
Speaker 1: like you can't really transmit that very far. There's no
Speaker 1: way to package it and ship it. And so mining
Speaker 1: allows them to monetize that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the beautiful thing is I tell them, like,
Speaker 2: even if you don't believe in bitcoin and you don't
Speaker 2: want it, just mine it and sell to someone else, right,
Speaker 2: someone else will buy it, will even if.
Speaker 1: You think it's fools gold. Yeah, and people want to
Speaker 1: buy it, sell this.
Speaker 2: There's this incredibly liquid market and there are buyers. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's almost negligent.
Speaker 1: And have they been pretty receptive to that.
Speaker 2: Well, that's usually the light bulb moment. Yeah, I tell them, first,
Speaker 2: your energy could fund everything through bitcoin, and then you
Speaker 2: don't have to keep bitcoin. You can just sell it
Speaker 2: all and.
Speaker 1: You don't even have to mention bitcoin. It's like Hey,
Speaker 1: would you like to make an extra billion dollars a
Speaker 1: year or whatever that's way more or whatever that number
Speaker 1: is right, And then well, how do I make an
Speaker 1: extra billion dollars by running data centers? What the data
Speaker 1: centers do doesn't really matter, and you just kind of
Speaker 1: like work your way in. If you drop bitcoin too soon,
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, never mind, never mind, are kind of
Speaker 1: a thing like that. So is your theory? Then you
Speaker 1: said five ten years, which it's always timeframe. Five ten
Speaker 1: years is actually seems pretty short. Pretty short time frame
Speaker 1: it is. But you think like a game theory will
Speaker 1: play out here where potentially the G seven, maybe even
Speaker 1: more than that, really get aggressive and try to clamp
Speaker 1: down because they're trying to protect the status quote they
Speaker 1: want their system to maintain. But the people who aren't
Speaker 1: in the system, they don't care. They have nothing to lose, right,
Speaker 1: and so those ones will adopt, And if that happens out,
Speaker 1: then those countries will have the upper hand, the advantage.
Speaker 1: How you see it kind of playing out.
Speaker 2: I think they'll try to clamp down, but they're going
Speaker 2: to face civil unrest at home just because their policies
Speaker 2: make no sense, right, Like, if you look at Germany,
Speaker 2: they shut down all their nuclear and then they're burning coal, right,
Speaker 2: and they're proud of that for some reason.
Speaker 1: But they're they're they're chopping down forests and burning wood
Speaker 1: and they're proud of that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think they're importing trees from the US to burn too,
Speaker 2: So I don't see how sustainable that is.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So they might try to clamp down or crack down,
Speaker 2: but they're just going to self immolate themselves, self destruct. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I don't think they can successfully clamp down. And
Speaker 2: as Bitcoin's dominance grows, those globalist organizations lose more and
Speaker 2: more power too. So all you need to do is
Speaker 2: have a few bitcoin bonds in the wild, right, And
Speaker 2: that just makes and I am a I am f
Speaker 2: loan look useless.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's the game theory. So as long as
Speaker 1: one or two people are doing it, then other people
Speaker 1: are going to see that. I did see Liechtenstein said
Speaker 1: they were going to start accepting bitcoin for government payments,
Speaker 1: and so again that's just like another little crack in
Speaker 1: the game theory, so to speak, you know, the more adoption.
Speaker 2: Okay, well we're engaged with Litenstein, Oh you are, Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 2: we're engaged with a lot of countr Yeah, we can't
Speaker 2: talk about a lot of stuff yet, but yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: if you knew everything I knew, you'd be super bolish
Speaker 2: on bitcoin.
Speaker 1: I'm already bullish on bitcoin, but maybe so that's good.
Speaker 1: So okay, so you can't disclose it. But if we knew,
Speaker 1: if we knew what you knew, if we knew what
Speaker 1: was going on in the conversations inside some of these governments,
Speaker 1: it's pretty favorable, I would say.
Speaker 2: So it's just pragmatism at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I just go back to just human greed,
Speaker 1: like which government doesn't want more money? Which government doesn't
Speaker 1: want to turn more of the resources into money.
Speaker 2: And they all do except for some of the G sevens.
Speaker 1: Except for some of the G sevens, And that's the
Speaker 1: pain is not high enough. They can still just print
Speaker 1: for now, right, But the nations that aren't able to
Speaker 1: do that, like George Carlin, and there's a big old club,
Speaker 1: and you're not in it. So all those countries, they
Speaker 1: are not in it, and their choices either one go
Speaker 1: to the IMF and give up massive amounts of sovereignty,
Speaker 1: potentially change the entire makeup of their country. In Ukraine,
Speaker 1: I saw this article this week. It was the third
Speaker 1: largest debtor to the IMF, and the IMF is making
Speaker 1: them change the entire property ownership of their government. Their country.
Speaker 1: Ukraine is the bread basket of Europe, right, some of
Speaker 1: the most fertile land, and they're taking all the land
Speaker 1: from the farmers and basically give them to the oligarchs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so like, if you're a country that doesn't want
Speaker 1: to give that up, what's your other option?
Speaker 2: It's only bitcoin.
Speaker 1: It's only bitcoin. Yeah, So okay, well I think we
Speaker 1: can end it with that. Man, if we knew what
Speaker 1: you knew, we'd be even more bullish on bitcoin. Anything
Speaker 1: else that you want to talk about or draw attention to.
Speaker 1: What can people do to get involved in this anything?
Speaker 2: So last year when I was on stage, I said,
Speaker 2: you know, everyone should try to do something. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: I think that maybe stirred up some people, But a
Speaker 2: lot of people have started reaching out and engaging with us.
Speaker 2: So we have, you know, groups in multiple countries working
Speaker 2: with US, facilitating meetings and doing.
Speaker 1: That with AQUA or with just nation state nation state.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think the call, I would say is
Speaker 2: keep doing that, Like you can reach out. You don't
Speaker 2: need to talk to me or Jenna three, but you
Speaker 2: should try to do something and try to fix the
Speaker 2: system that you're in because it's only.
Speaker 1: An awareness, change the conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's only through our work that we can affect change.
Speaker 2: If we just sit back and wait, nothing will happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. And I know we
Speaker 1: have a big international audience, So talk about it, share
Speaker 1: the information, continue to bring adoption or just education around it,
Speaker 1: and we can really have a bottom up approach. And
Speaker 1: I think kind of like we's on Al Salvador. You
Speaker 1: get that bottom up approach and then the top goes,
Speaker 1: what the heck is going on? Oh it's pretty good,
Speaker 1: let's go do that. So cool, all right, Samson, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thanks Mark, It's been fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah,