WEBVTT - Unveiling Economic Challenges: Advocating for Bitcoin Adoption with Samson Mow

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<v Speaker 1>So Samson, Samson, mal Mark Xcelion, Mark Moss, Thanks, thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for sitting down with me. I want to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>your big project that you're working on, which is the

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<v Speaker 1>biggest project and probably the most important project, which is

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<v Speaker 1>like sovereign state nation state nation state adoption. But let's

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<v Speaker 1>start back a little bit on some backstory. So Blockstream. Yeah, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So Blockstream potentially arguably the biggest, most important kind of

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<v Speaker 1>company in the bitcoin space.

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<v Speaker 2>Still is one of the most important companies. Okay, and

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<v Speaker 2>I was there, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>You were there, So what was that? What were you

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<v Speaker 1>doing there?

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<v Speaker 2>So at Blockstream, I was the chief Strategy Officer, which

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<v Speaker 2>kind of is a very broad title, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>handling a variety of things, basically business, product and marketing,

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<v Speaker 2>but trying to take the stuff that we're building and

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<v Speaker 2>make it more palatable for the masses and accessible. So

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<v Speaker 2>Blockstream is a very engineering heavy company, a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>very talented skilled engineers at the protocol level, but then

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<v Speaker 2>making something that people can use as a product or

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<v Speaker 2>app on their phone, I think is a slightly different

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<v Speaker 2>skill set. So that was what I was bringing to

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<v Speaker 2>the table and trying to do that and also get

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<v Speaker 2>more liquid adoption that's the bitcoin side chain, and I

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<v Speaker 2>ended up working with Al Salvador on their bitcoin law

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<v Speaker 2>push and the subsequent digital securities laws.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so what products were they that blockstream graded that

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<v Speaker 1>you were pushing for adoption?

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<v Speaker 2>Basically everything, So green wallet it's a bitcoin and liquid wallet,

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<v Speaker 2>the liquid network itself. We're trying to bootstrap the federation

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<v Speaker 2>and get more members involved, more exchanges to integrate and

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<v Speaker 2>basically be prepared for high fee environments where there is

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<v Speaker 2>congestion and kind of like now, yeah, well it's past now,

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<v Speaker 2>but yeah, it'll it comes up from time to time,

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<v Speaker 2>and it shows that you still need that use case. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>Lightning is good for payments, micro transactions, but not great

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<v Speaker 2>for moving large amounts of bitcoin back and forth very rapidly.

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<v Speaker 2>So again this is a great time to reiterate that

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<v Speaker 2>you need tech like side chains to let people move quickly. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>everyone can technic open a really big lightning channel to

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<v Speaker 2>an exchange, but at that point you might as well

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<v Speaker 2>just send it on chain R. So it just shows

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<v Speaker 2>that it's very it's a very critical piece of bitcoin infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 1>Liquid be in a side chain, yes.

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<v Speaker 2>And then blockxom also had blocks from Satellite which is

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<v Speaker 2>the satellite constellation in geosynchronous orbit that's broadcasting the Bitcoin

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<v Speaker 2>blockchain all around us right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a big project.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's another critical piece of infrastructure. So that one

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<v Speaker 2>actually helps prevent against network splits. So if an undersea

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<v Speaker 2>cables cut to a particular region with a lot of mining, which.

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<v Speaker 1>Is a potentially big attack.

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<v Speaker 2>Vector exactly, So that would mitigate that because as long

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<v Speaker 2>as one person there is running a Bitcoin node and

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<v Speaker 2>then to the satellite, then they will kind of bridge

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<v Speaker 2>all those transactions with the rest of the network. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's another way to prevent high level attacks on the network.

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<v Speaker 1>What about let's talk about that just for a second.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is something that I've been thinking about. We

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<v Speaker 1>saw something I will get into, but I mean, we're

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<v Speaker 1>seeing the rise of censorship centers, of a movement of

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<v Speaker 1>communication obviously payment technology, etc. And if it doesn't you

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<v Speaker 1>don't have to go too far back. As a matter

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<v Speaker 1>of fact, I think I saw like Chinese submarines were

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<v Speaker 1>like hovering over, like Taiwan's like internet cables. I think

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<v Speaker 1>I saw like a news headline, right. I think it

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<v Speaker 1>was in the Arab Spring Egypt cut the internet going

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<v Speaker 1>into Egypt, right to try to cut that down. So

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<v Speaker 1>I think in the US there's somewhere three to five

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<v Speaker 1>cables that give all the Internet here, so we just

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<v Speaker 1>cut those off and then there's no Internet. And so

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<v Speaker 1>that seems like it would be an attack on bitcoin,

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<v Speaker 1>right if you'd cut off the Internet. So does the

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<v Speaker 1>blockstream satellites do they prevent the help attack, help prevent

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<v Speaker 1>against that attack or just against the bitcoin network attack?

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<v Speaker 2>Probably just for bitcoin for bitcoin, Yeah, but it's it

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<v Speaker 2>could be scaled up. I mean, I think Adam Beck

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<v Speaker 2>is working on bidirectional colms through bloxtoom satellite, and in

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<v Speaker 2>that case it could potentially help with other things, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's never going to be able to sustain like a

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<v Speaker 2>country level load of data transfer, right Yeah. So but

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<v Speaker 2>I think that kind of attack is mitigated now with

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<v Speaker 2>things like starlink, right, so you're not completely dependent on

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<v Speaker 2>terrestrial internet. So blocktoam satellite was the first step to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of decentralize away from trustrial internet, and then you

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<v Speaker 2>have starlink as a second layer on that.

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<v Speaker 1>But in regards to the in regards to the just

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<v Speaker 1>the blockstream satellites, could you still transact bitcoin? You just

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<v Speaker 1>can't use the Internet. I'm not saying like the whole

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<v Speaker 1>country move onto Internet, Like we have starlink for that,

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<v Speaker 1>but would you still able to use bitcoin?

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<v Speaker 2>Do that? You can keep your note in sync, but

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<v Speaker 2>if you want to send the transaction, you'll have to

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<v Speaker 2>find a way to get it over SMS or something else.

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<v Speaker 2>Got it until Adam finishes bi directional got it? Okay?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay? All right? So those are the big projects.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what else was there? Blockshream mining was another thing

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<v Speaker 2>that we started.

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<v Speaker 1>Like kind of one of the later projects, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Not that late. I think that started around the time

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<v Speaker 2>I joined because I kind of foresaw that China was

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<v Speaker 2>gonna clamp down on mining, so we wanted to start

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<v Speaker 2>that movement of hash rate out of China. I think

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<v Speaker 2>we're one of the first to set up in North

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<v Speaker 2>America actually. And what else is there? At Blockstream? It's

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<v Speaker 2>been a while since i've shield blockstream stuff. I think

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<v Speaker 2>there's gotta be one more lightning of course. Yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 2>the early blockstream project, but a lot of the things

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<v Speaker 2>also blo info it was the one of the first

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<v Speaker 2>really important block explorer projects too, because this is another

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<v Speaker 2>potential attack factor too, like coming off of the block

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<v Speaker 2>size wars, it was actually a bit of a precarious

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<v Speaker 2>environment because the big blockers were controlling all the block explorers,

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<v Speaker 2>so they could just flip it to I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>be cash and say this is the real chain, and

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<v Speaker 2>you'll confuse a large chunk of the world thinking well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>my transaction is not there while it's on the real

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<v Speaker 2>bitcoin now right right. So having that and then mempool

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<v Speaker 2>space coming out I think helps with that because that

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<v Speaker 2>mitigates one more attack factor. But if you look at

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<v Speaker 2>it from a high level, a lot of the stuff

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<v Speaker 2>that blockstream is working on is to kind of augment

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<v Speaker 2>Bitcoin and mitigate high level attacks.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's talk about the high level attacks. Because you

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<v Speaker 1>were around and somewhat instrumental during the block size wars,

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<v Speaker 1>the nerd wars, the civil wars or whatever, right, which

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<v Speaker 1>was basically trying to do that change the block size.

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<v Speaker 1>So what was your position in that? I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>know you were someone instrumental. Explain that and it seems

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<v Speaker 1>like that same conversation is popping back up again today.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but it's a it's a bit less of a

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<v Speaker 2>threat these days. I mean, it's just a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>guys with NFTs, so it's a bit different. Back then,

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<v Speaker 2>it was almost every single miner, mining pool, and almost

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<v Speaker 2>every exchange, so it's a very different landscape today than

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<v Speaker 2>it was back then. But yeah, like you're saying it

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<v Speaker 2>was an attack, it was people trying to change the

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<v Speaker 2>bitcoin protocol and force that through through just the being

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<v Speaker 2>big players in the space. Right you had coin Base,

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<v Speaker 2>blockchain Info, bitmain basically everybody, and then you had just

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<v Speaker 2>a few bulwarks of resistance, like Blockstream is one. But

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<v Speaker 2>Blockstream was under heavy attack at the time because it

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<v Speaker 2>was the RBTC guy saying blockstream controls Bitcoin, so they

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<v Speaker 2>can't really do much, right, They're kind of pinned down.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I was a COO at BTC China at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, and I came in and basically allied with

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<v Speaker 2>Adam and Blockstream, and it was a credible outside voice

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of said, yeah, they don't control bitcoin, No

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<v Speaker 2>one controls bitcoin. And then I think another exchange that

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<v Speaker 2>was on the side of fighting for small blocks was bitfinex,

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<v Speaker 2>and they opened up some of the markets that later

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<v Speaker 2>on helped kill some of those forks.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so in that I mean basically the chain was

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<v Speaker 1>forked and so we got the big blockchain BTC or

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<v Speaker 1>b BCH a ry and then now the BSV hard

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<v Speaker 1>to keep trap BCH. So that's the big blocks, and

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<v Speaker 1>then we kept the small blocks and the chains forked

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<v Speaker 1>and so then it was about who was going to

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<v Speaker 1>choose which chain to run with? Yeah, and so then

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<v Speaker 1>with these big players, which one were they going to

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<v Speaker 1>start signaling? Is that kind of how went down?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, more or less they were. There were several forks

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<v Speaker 2>that they were supporting. I think it was like bitcoin XT,

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<v Speaker 2>Bitcoin Unlimited, Bitcoin Classic. It's like with two x and

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<v Speaker 2>then be cash came. But they were just pushing every

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<v Speaker 2>single one trying to find one that's stuck, and none

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<v Speaker 2>of them stuck and none of them succeeded.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so the fight was over trying to increase the

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<v Speaker 1>block size. So you get more through put on that,

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<v Speaker 1>do you think? Because blockstream was already working on Liquid

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<v Speaker 1>as a side chain, So then they realized that the

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<v Speaker 1>scaling solution was not to increase the block size, but

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<v Speaker 1>was to do some sort of side chain like Lightning

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<v Speaker 1>or Liquid. Is that why I kind of where Blockstreams

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<v Speaker 1>kind of ideology was on that they realized the scaling

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<v Speaker 1>solution was something different.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So I think it's Adam's thinking, which is very

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<v Speaker 2>based on computer science, right, which is yet to scale

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<v Speaker 2>technology and layers. Otherwise you can end up with gigabyte

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<v Speaker 2>sized blocks or terabyte blocks, and then the network just

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<v Speaker 2>centralizes again back to data centers, right, which is kind

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<v Speaker 2>of the problem with ethereum. Right. But if you want

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<v Speaker 2>everything else, yeah, if you want bitcoin to be decentralized,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to keep the block small. But that was

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<v Speaker 2>the battle on the surface, which was we want to

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<v Speaker 2>scale it to help people, or as Roger Vera would say,

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<v Speaker 2>so everyone could buy coffee with bitcoin right.

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<v Speaker 1>On the main chain, on the main chain, because I

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<v Speaker 1>need my coffee to be immutable for all of history.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's what we're seeing.

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<v Speaker 1>Today, Like I don't want to be censored on my

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<v Speaker 1>cup of coffee exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so important. Yeah, but we're seeing a little of

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<v Speaker 2>that today with the pictures on the chain, with the

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<v Speaker 2>ordinals and all the other stuff, right, Like, you don't

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<v Speaker 2>need your picture in the chain and immutable for all

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<v Speaker 2>time because that can be copied. What you really want

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<v Speaker 2>is a certificate or a pointer or a timestamp. Really,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's a we can get in that later if

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<v Speaker 2>you want. But the fight was on the surface level

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<v Speaker 2>that we need to help if you help everybody and

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<v Speaker 2>scale bitcoin, right, But I think at a deeper level

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<v Speaker 2>it was about fighting to change the protocol and using

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<v Speaker 2>a very innoculous, seemingly friendly, helpful way to do so,

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<v Speaker 2>which was because we want to buy coffee and let

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<v Speaker 2>the unbanged to use bitcoin. But if you can change

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<v Speaker 2>the block size, you can change everything else. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>a very slippery slope and it would set a very

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<v Speaker 2>bad precedent that bitcoin can just.

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<v Speaker 1>Like we were talking about before we start recording, just

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<v Speaker 1>like with ethereum. So Ethereum changed the monetary policy to

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<v Speaker 1>be the ultrasound money.

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<v Speaker 2>They can change to be anything they want, but.

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<v Speaker 1>The fact that they changed it means they're not exactly Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so by changing to become that, the change actually proved

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<v Speaker 1>that they can't be that.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, the FED could become ultrasound money too. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but they can also print and they can tighten. They

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<v Speaker 2>can do whatever they want. So it's the same with theorem.

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<v Speaker 2>They can change it at will. But the block size

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<v Speaker 2>war was too was over that discussion like can it

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<v Speaker 2>be changed? And the answer is no.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, on the ordinal piece. To your point, putting the

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<v Speaker 1>jpeg in there seems a little silly. Putting the King

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<v Speaker 1>James Bible in there doesn't seem so silly, right, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>people today, over the last decades, decades, two decades, have

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<v Speaker 1>been literally risking their lives, laying their lives down to

0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.160
<v Speaker 1>sneak a physical copy of a Bible into China or

0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:58.480
<v Speaker 1>North Korea. And now it can just be in the

0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:03.559
<v Speaker 1>censorship resistant network. Whatever they want to censor. Three D

0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:07.480
<v Speaker 1>gun schematics could be in there. So while the jpeg

0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:09.520
<v Speaker 1>seems a little silly, I mean, there could be good

0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.080
<v Speaker 1>use cases I suppose for that type of script. Yeah.

0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think Michael Saylor said that he'd put his

0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:16.040
<v Speaker 2>will on the chain, and.

0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:17.520
<v Speaker 1>The will would be a good example.

0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:19.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that could be good too, But I think you

0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:24.040
<v Speaker 2>can get the same effect if the If there's no

0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:25.920
<v Speaker 2>censorship of the thing, then you don't need to put

0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:27.800
<v Speaker 2>it on. But if there is, then maybe it would help.

0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.959
<v Speaker 1>Right, But if you need censorship resistance and immutability.

0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.560
<v Speaker 2>If you need censorship resistance, you need. But most use cases,

0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:37.080
<v Speaker 2>like the will, I don't think it's cool, But no

0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:38.240
<v Speaker 2>one's going to censor your will.

0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:40.280
<v Speaker 1>What about those movies you know where like they sneak

0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.200
<v Speaker 1>into the library and they get the dad's will and

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:42.920
<v Speaker 1>they change it.

0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:45.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, you can do a timestem.

0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:47.400
<v Speaker 1>You can have it your a journey.

0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:49.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you can hash it, right, So you just

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.480
<v Speaker 2>embed the hash, right, and that solves ninety nine point

0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.040
<v Speaker 2>ninety nine of all use cases.

0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Right, And embedding a hash would then point to the

0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:57.800
<v Speaker 1>location where it's at.

0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you could do that too, but the key thing

0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.360
<v Speaker 2>is you want to hash it so you can show

0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.200
<v Speaker 2>that this was the actual original document, right, And that's

0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.880
<v Speaker 2>enough for ninety nine point nine percent of every single

0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:10.400
<v Speaker 2>use case.

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's a good point. Not everything needs to

0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:16.040
<v Speaker 1>be decentralized. Not everything needs to be censorsive resistant or

0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.680
<v Speaker 1>immutable like a cup of coffee. And I think that's

0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.800
<v Speaker 1>one thing that kind of swept over the whole, you know,

0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.920
<v Speaker 1>blockchain world is like, not everything has to be decentralized.

0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.360
<v Speaker 1>JPEGs don't need to be decentralized. Yeah, there's a lot

0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:31.120
<v Speaker 1>of reasons why things actually shouldn't be decentralized or and

0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.440
<v Speaker 1>specifically like achieving consensus for example, like emails sort of decentralized,

0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:37.800
<v Speaker 1>but it doesn't need to achieve consensus to work correct

0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.280
<v Speaker 1>something like that. So let's fast forward past that. So

0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:43.840
<v Speaker 1>you were working there, you guys started working on this

0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.400
<v Speaker 1>whole volcano bond thing, and I don't know if this started.

0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:49.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, I don't have any inner working

0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.360
<v Speaker 1>knowledge of blockstream, but just you know, following along at

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:56.480
<v Speaker 1>the back on podcast, et cetera, you launched this mining thing,

0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.160
<v Speaker 1>which then you kind of had a bond or some

0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.240
<v Speaker 1>sort of security for the mining.

0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.720
<v Speaker 2>The BMN, the blockstream mining note.

0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, the big struck. Yeah, okay, did that kind of

0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.840
<v Speaker 1>then move into the kind of volcano mining in nel

0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Salad or is that kind of how that started or.

0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.240
<v Speaker 2>What kind of So the volcano stuff, it kind of

0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.760
<v Speaker 2>started as a meme because people say, oh, you have volcanoes,

0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 2>you can mine bitcoin, so you should start a volcano mine.

0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.000
<v Speaker 2>And then I think Alistair Millen Max Kaiser said make

0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.280
<v Speaker 2>a volcano bond. But it was just like an idea.

0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.560
<v Speaker 2>But because we had constructed the blockstream mining note, I

0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:33.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of took that and created the actual structure for

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.479
<v Speaker 2>what the bond could look like where they could potentially

0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.720
<v Speaker 2>get rid of their debt in ten years by creating

0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:44.160
<v Speaker 2>this bitcoin bond, which would be so the bigcoin bond

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.440
<v Speaker 2>is the superstructure, and the superstructure is really just half

0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.800
<v Speaker 2>of the funds raised would go to buy bitcoin, hold

0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:52.920
<v Speaker 2>it for five years, and then share sell it and

0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.360
<v Speaker 2>share the upside. The other half goes into doing a

0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.320
<v Speaker 2>revenue generating productive activity. So it's like also to be

0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.160
<v Speaker 2>the best bond ever because it's backed half by hardest

0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.440
<v Speaker 2>asset on the planet and the other half is revenue generating,

0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.600
<v Speaker 2>whereas most bonds are just pure debt, pure debt and

0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.480
<v Speaker 2>nothing backing it except for hope. So I think it's

0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.600
<v Speaker 2>a more pragmatic way to create this type of instrument

0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:20.840
<v Speaker 2>as we move to a future where money could evaporate

0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.200
<v Speaker 2>and disappear one day. So you denominate your debt in dollars,

0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.720
<v Speaker 2>but you back it with hard assets and a productive

0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.360
<v Speaker 2>revenue generating activity, which in al Salvador's case would be

0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.720
<v Speaker 2>bitcoin mining. But that can be transplanted to other places too,

0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:39.320
<v Speaker 2>So there's interest in Ecuador and Costa Rica in hydro bonds,

0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.800
<v Speaker 2>so using hydropower to mine bitcoin, and potentially you could.

0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.160
<v Speaker 1>Volcano bonds hydro bonds that's really just a power source,

0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:47.280
<v Speaker 1>but ultimate it's a bitcoin bond.

0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, technically you could do it with anything. It just

0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.880
<v Speaker 2>has to be a revenue generating activity to cover the

0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.560
<v Speaker 2>coupon of the bond. So right now we're talking to

0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.440
<v Speaker 2>some people in Africa, and you know there's tons of

0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.640
<v Speaker 2>rare earth minerals in Africa. So you could construct a

0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.760
<v Speaker 2>bitcoin bond where the revenue generating activity is mining, like

0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:12.720
<v Speaker 2>real mining to extract rare earth minerals for whatever, and

0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.960
<v Speaker 2>then you still have that bitcoin component, so that's.

0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:21.000
<v Speaker 1>The holding bitcoin and then of the revenue generating activity.

0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.400
<v Speaker 1>So then they started picking up steam in El Salvador,

0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.160
<v Speaker 1>but then did they get put on hold? Right?

0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.400
<v Speaker 2>So the president, well, we announced it together and it

0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.400
<v Speaker 2>was supposed to go out like in spring twenty twenty two,

0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:40.120
<v Speaker 2>and then they got caught up fighting the gangs and

0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:44.600
<v Speaker 2>trying to stabilize that. And I think there there was

0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:46.760
<v Speaker 2>a piece that was needed before that, which was the

0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.520
<v Speaker 2>digital securities loss. That was something that we were advising

0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.440
<v Speaker 2>them on. Sala could pass that, but that would allow

0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.160
<v Speaker 2>them to issue the bonds themselves under their own regulatory framework,

0:16:57.520 --> 0:16:59.640
<v Speaker 2>and that has passed I think a few months ago,

0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.640
<v Speaker 2>so potentially they could come out end of this year,

0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.960
<v Speaker 2>and I think the bitfec's team is more involved with

0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.480
<v Speaker 2>them now on the issuance, so I think they said

0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.760
<v Speaker 2>something like maybe end of this year they will do something,

0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.520
<v Speaker 2>but I'm not too involved in that anymore.

0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay, but you saw enough of that and enough

0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.960
<v Speaker 1>potential that you decided to leave Blockstream and go move

0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.520
<v Speaker 1>your career onto helping nation states adopt bitcoin.

0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:25.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's Jen three.

0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:26.720
<v Speaker 1>That's where you're at now.

0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:28.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it's not just nation states. We want to

0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 2>accelerate hyper bitcoonization or accelerate bitcoin adoption around the world.

0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.719
<v Speaker 2>So while Blockstream is one of the most important companies

0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.280
<v Speaker 2>in the space and they're doing excellent work, what I

0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.800
<v Speaker 2>want to do is get more get bitcoin in the

0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.200
<v Speaker 2>hands of the masses. So we're trying to relaunch our people. Yeah,

0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:46.879
<v Speaker 2>the people.

0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.160
<v Speaker 1>So we're reading and that is that a top down

0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, I bottom up or top down?

0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.440
<v Speaker 2>It's both. So right now we're doing all the nations

0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.520
<v Speaker 2>state stuff we're doing is the top down stuff, engaging

0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:00.840
<v Speaker 2>with politicians and governments. But at the bottom up level,

0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.960
<v Speaker 2>we want to launch Aqua and start to get more

0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.639
<v Speaker 2>adoption and focus on Latam first. But the angle that

0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.840
<v Speaker 2>we're taking is that we want to be a bitcoin

0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.720
<v Speaker 2>and stable coin wallet because right now in latinin they

0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:18.840
<v Speaker 2>are seeking dollar denominated value, so they're using tether already

0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.719
<v Speaker 2>at big time. It's dominant in Latin America. A lot

0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:23.719
<v Speaker 2>of people in the US don't really understand that because

0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, you have excellent banking and everything. Well maybe

0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:27.520
<v Speaker 2>not anymore.

0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:29.560
<v Speaker 1>But at one of the meetings last night, I talked

0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:34.320
<v Speaker 1>to somebody from Central America, maybe maybe Latam and he

0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.000
<v Speaker 1>was saying the exact same thing. They're moving, you know,

0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.320
<v Speaker 1>one hundred million dollars. He's like, we're doing it over tether.

0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's true. But most bitcoin wallets don't have tether,

0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.720
<v Speaker 2>right because they're Bitcoin and lightning. Yeah, but we plan

0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.720
<v Speaker 2>to have bitcoin as your savings account, and then we

0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.600
<v Speaker 2>have a spending account section which is tether and Lightning

0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:53.480
<v Speaker 2>and liquid.

0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.560
<v Speaker 1>Now that would be a custodial wallet.

0:18:56.240 --> 0:19:00.399
<v Speaker 2>No, non custodia because Tether is actually on liquid. So

0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.399
<v Speaker 2>because we're a bitcoin and liquid wallet, you have everything

0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.600
<v Speaker 2>in one view. And we're hoping that we'll take away

0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.400
<v Speaker 2>some of the transaction volume and aum from the ship

0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.520
<v Speaker 2>chains and bring it onto liquid.

0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can already use stable coins on ethereum, right,

0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.400
<v Speaker 1>so you could self custody that yourself and the other

0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:20.120
<v Speaker 1>chains as well.

0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:21.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but then you have to use ethereum.

0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:23.840
<v Speaker 1>Right. So this way you can put using liquid, you

0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:25.480
<v Speaker 1>can put it on the Bitcoin chain and.

0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.800
<v Speaker 2>It's on the liquid chain, right, but it.

0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:29.000
<v Speaker 1>Would just a side chain of Bitcoin.

0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but the wallet supports built, so you generate one

0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.560
<v Speaker 2>seed and it will spawn your Bitcoin wallet and your

0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:35.240
<v Speaker 2>liquid wallet.

0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Okay, so that's the big project right now, and

0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.280
<v Speaker 1>that's that's important because people in Latin are really for anywhere.

0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.359
<v Speaker 1>I mean, unfortunately, I think we agree there's an evolutionary

0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.359
<v Speaker 1>process to bitcoin and bitcoin adoption and the evolution from

0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.639
<v Speaker 1>a collectible store value medium exchange. And so for shorter

0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.040
<v Speaker 1>term purchases, stable coins are still a pretty good solution,

0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.119
<v Speaker 1>especially in emerging markets. Is that kind of the theory.

0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But it's more that I think there's a bigger

0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:05.840
<v Speaker 2>cognitive leap you have to make to get into bitcoin,

0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:09.560
<v Speaker 2>whereas for them they're already seeking dollars, right, paper dollars

0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.399
<v Speaker 2>or any way they can get them. Yeah, anyway they

0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.960
<v Speaker 2>can get them. So you're kind of just giving them

0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.520
<v Speaker 2>the thing that they're looking for already, and you don't

0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:18.520
<v Speaker 2>have to say you should get bitcoin. But when they

0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.480
<v Speaker 2>install Aqua, they'll see, oh there's bitcoin that's hop there. Yeah,

0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:23.920
<v Speaker 2>and it's for saving. Yeah, this is for spending.

0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:24.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.359
<v Speaker 2>But ironically, like people in developing in the Global South

0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.800
<v Speaker 2>with runaway inflation, for them taking dollars to saving, right,

0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.639
<v Speaker 2>But at least we can get them onto the track

0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.440
<v Speaker 2>of using bitcoin and bitcoin side chain.

0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:40.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So you know, I kind of have this theory.

0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.080
<v Speaker 1>It's not really a theory. I think it's just human nature,

0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:45.200
<v Speaker 1>is that we don't really move until the pain's high enough.

0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:46.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.280
<v Speaker 1>I believe in chiropractic, but I don't typically go unless

0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.359
<v Speaker 1>my back hurt's reel bad, right, or like someone that

0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:53.120
<v Speaker 1>needs rehab, they don't want to go to rehab unless

0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:54.800
<v Speaker 1>they hit rock bottom kind of thing, right, And so

0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.360
<v Speaker 1>in the US, most of us don't have pain high enough.

0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:00.240
<v Speaker 1>In Canada, during the Trucker rally, the pain was en

0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.120
<v Speaker 1>But in Latam the pain is high enough. Right, they're

0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:07.159
<v Speaker 1>witnessing double triple digit inflation. So like you don't need

0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:08.800
<v Speaker 1>to explain why they need to get out of their

0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:10.640
<v Speaker 1>fiat currency. Like into something else.

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, the other thing is a lot of the central

0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:16.840
<v Speaker 2>bank regulations don't let them get out of their currency too, right,

0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.480
<v Speaker 2>there's limit, yeah, capital controls. But also in Argentina they

0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.280
<v Speaker 2>have their official rate which is like half of the

0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.000
<v Speaker 2>real rate. Right, so if you wanted to do it too,

0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.960
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna get cut right at the start.

0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:31.160
<v Speaker 1>What do you mean by that? So the real rate,

0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:33.520
<v Speaker 1>being like a black market rate, is different than the

0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:34.200
<v Speaker 1>official rate.

0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.240
<v Speaker 2>It depends which way you're looking at. If I say

0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.760
<v Speaker 2>the real rate is the I think it's called the

0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:40.720
<v Speaker 2>blue rate, right, they call it blue.

0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:41.440
<v Speaker 1>It's not black.

0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:44.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's not black, but it's the rate on the street,

0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:46.679
<v Speaker 2>the street rate. And then you have the official rate,

0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:50.200
<v Speaker 2>which is really bad. And that's the one at the bank.

0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:54.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, to exchange their local currency to a dollar.

0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Argentine pays of two dollars, right, Okay.

0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:58.960
<v Speaker 1>So they give you a horrible exchange rate, but on

0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:03.160
<v Speaker 1>the street you get a much high rate. Yeah. Yeah,

0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.399
<v Speaker 1>And that's to prevent people from going into dollars. And

0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:08.280
<v Speaker 1>it's probably not that easy to go into dollars.

0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:12.800
<v Speaker 2>It's actually quite easy. There's a ton of money changes everywhere. Okay,

0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:14.639
<v Speaker 2>But then you won't be able to do it at

0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:17.240
<v Speaker 2>the bank, right, So you're going to you know, various

0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.000
<v Speaker 2>streets they're called quava caves, and you go in there

0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.040
<v Speaker 2>and you change your money and they take tether and

0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:23.200
<v Speaker 2>dollars or whatever.

0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so then people are using tether. They have tether wallets,

0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:28.119
<v Speaker 1>they just not have a wall that has tether and

0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:29.119
<v Speaker 1>bitcoin in both.

0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:31.919
<v Speaker 2>Maybe there's some shit coin wallets that have bitcoin, but

0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:32.959
<v Speaker 2>you know it's not ideal.

0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:35.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, So that's the plan. So then

0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.480
<v Speaker 1>that's like a decentralized approach from the bottom up. Now

0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:40.800
<v Speaker 1>when you talk about like from top down nation state

0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.720
<v Speaker 1>adoptions specifically going to like the governments, then you're trying

0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:45.639
<v Speaker 1>to get them to go to like you know what

0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.480
<v Speaker 1>else Overeigty did making it like a legal tender. And

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:50.200
<v Speaker 1>I hear people in the United States going, you know,

0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:53.520
<v Speaker 1>we should make it legal tender or whatever, And I think,

0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:57.080
<v Speaker 1>does it need to be legal tender? Because whatever we

0:22:57.119 --> 0:22:59.600
<v Speaker 1>want to be used as money is money. If I

0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:01.359
<v Speaker 1>want to trade you this iPhone or I want to

0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:03.920
<v Speaker 1>give you three hours of my labor, like we say,

0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:05.280
<v Speaker 1>what the medium of exchange is?

0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Right to a point, the benefit of legal tender is

0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.360
<v Speaker 2>that it removes cap gains, right, So that is really

0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:15.800
<v Speaker 2>what you need. Legal tender is cool, it's an endorsement

0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and you can do all.

0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.600
<v Speaker 1>These nations in Latam have the cap gains issue if

0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:22.520
<v Speaker 1>it's not legal tender.

0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:25.640
<v Speaker 2>Some of them okay, but at least in the US

0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:28.760
<v Speaker 2>and Canada. Right, technically, if you if we did the

0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:32.280
<v Speaker 2>trade phone for bitcoin, then it's a taxable, taxable event, right,

0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:35.600
<v Speaker 2>and that prevents bitcoin from being used as money. But

0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:38.800
<v Speaker 2>if a country has no cap gains, like Switzerland, they

0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:43.160
<v Speaker 2>could just adopt bitcoin and say yeah, because there's nothing

0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:44.119
<v Speaker 2>stopping you, right.

0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:48.560
<v Speaker 1>But in Latam or Argentina, Peru has massive inflation going

0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.560
<v Speaker 1>on right now, obviously Venezuela, et cetera. I mean, they

0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:54.840
<v Speaker 1>could just start using bitcoin without it being legal tender.

0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:58.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you can always use bitcoin. The question is

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:01.600
<v Speaker 2>how above board is it? And can someone go after

0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:02.680
<v Speaker 2>you for using bitcoin?

0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:05.840
<v Speaker 1>So it's better curious in those countries that you're working

0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:07.439
<v Speaker 1>with down there, that's kind of your target market, the

0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.960
<v Speaker 1>Latam countries. So in those countries, do you need to

0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:13.040
<v Speaker 1>kind of have that top down approval of it for

0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:14.480
<v Speaker 1>the people to be able to start using it.

0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, not really, because you already have communities that use it, right,

0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:20.800
<v Speaker 2>But I think getting the top down is beneficial because

0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:24.440
<v Speaker 2>of two reasons. First, you make it above board, so

0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:29.000
<v Speaker 2>every transaction you do is completely legitimate and no one

0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:32.200
<v Speaker 2>can come after you for paying tax on whatever. Right.

0:24:32.320 --> 0:24:35.679
<v Speaker 2>The second is mitigation of nation state level attacks. So

0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:38.719
<v Speaker 2>my thinking is if we get them to adopt bitcoin,

0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:42.800
<v Speaker 2>embrace bitcoin, mine bitcoin, have a bitcoin bond, they're less

0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:44.080
<v Speaker 2>likely to attack the network.

0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:44.320
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:49.159
<v Speaker 2>If they're a minor, they're probably not going to ban mining. Right,

0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:52.119
<v Speaker 2>if they're holding bitcoin as a treasury asset, they're not

0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:57.200
<v Speaker 2>going to ban non custodial wallets what was the term again,

0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:02.399
<v Speaker 2>self hosted wallets, right, like they are in Europe. So

0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 2>I think you have to engage on some level with

0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:10.760
<v Speaker 2>the governments otherwise you end up with very poor policy decisions,

0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:16.959
<v Speaker 2>like in ther Conunion. So it's sort of like defending

0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:19.680
<v Speaker 2>bitcoin by educating people in the government.

0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it seems like in the G seven countries

0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:25.840
<v Speaker 1>at least, there's a massive attack. To your point, Europe's

0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:30.520
<v Speaker 1>trying to ban self hosted wallets. We're seeing a rise

0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:33.680
<v Speaker 1>of just censorship period, Right, they want a sensor movement.

0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:36.919
<v Speaker 1>We talked about being in Canada right sensoring movement. The

0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:39.560
<v Speaker 1>G twenty agreed to putting a passport system in health

0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:43.680
<v Speaker 1>passport system in as the G twenty censorship of information.

0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:46.440
<v Speaker 1>So now the G seven have all put in laws

0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:50.399
<v Speaker 1>against disinformation and whatever, hateful speeches, et cetera. And now

0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:54.880
<v Speaker 1>censorship on financial transactions. So lots of laws going in

0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:59.159
<v Speaker 1>in Europe to your point, self hosted Wallace potentially, and

0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:01.800
<v Speaker 1>now the US with the restrict Act. I mean, it's

0:26:01.840 --> 0:26:06.720
<v Speaker 1>just insanity. But that's like the G seven, Like we

0:26:06.760 --> 0:26:08.919
<v Speaker 1>don't really see that happening in Latam or are you

0:26:09.040 --> 0:26:10.800
<v Speaker 1>is there a fight going on down there? Or do

0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:13.120
<v Speaker 1>you think this is maybe where game theory starts playing out,

0:26:13.160 --> 0:26:15.760
<v Speaker 1>where like good, okay, G seven, G twenty, go ahead

0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:17.440
<v Speaker 1>and do that to yourselves, but it's going to grow

0:26:17.440 --> 0:26:17.920
<v Speaker 1>down here.

0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:20.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's definitely going to grow down there because I

0:26:20.200 --> 0:26:22.639
<v Speaker 2>think it's like you're saying, like, unless the pain is

0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:25.080
<v Speaker 2>high enough, people aren't going to do something. And the

0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:27.520
<v Speaker 2>pain in the Global South has been high for a

0:26:27.600 --> 0:26:29.800
<v Speaker 2>very long time, so they're just fine looking for a

0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:32.960
<v Speaker 2>way to get out. But until the advent of bitcoins,

0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:35.280
<v Speaker 2>is no way out right, there was no there's no

0:26:35.600 --> 0:26:38.119
<v Speaker 2>there's no exit, no exit, but now there is an exit.

0:26:38.600 --> 0:26:41.280
<v Speaker 2>So the fight I think, like the G seven countries

0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:44.400
<v Speaker 2>are basically doing it to themselves, right, whether they understand

0:26:44.440 --> 0:26:45.760
<v Speaker 2>it or not, they're just killing themselves.

0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:46.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:50.720
<v Speaker 2>But the fight I think in Latin will be against

0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:54.400
<v Speaker 2>the global organizations like the World Bank and the IMF,

0:26:54.760 --> 0:26:57.280
<v Speaker 2>which are trying to prevent them from getting out of

0:26:57.320 --> 0:27:00.800
<v Speaker 2>that debt spiral, right, or getting out of debt slavery.

0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:03.680
<v Speaker 2>So in Argentina, you know, the IMF a couple of

0:27:03.720 --> 0:27:05.840
<v Speaker 2>years back said we'll give you a loan, but you

0:27:05.840 --> 0:27:08.600
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't adopt Well, they said crypto, but no one cares

0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:11.120
<v Speaker 2>about crypto. Is about bitcoin. They said, you know, don't

0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:14.040
<v Speaker 2>adopt crypto and we'll give you a loan. And they said, okay,

0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:17.560
<v Speaker 2>But I think there's a new election coming. There's actually

0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:20.199
<v Speaker 2>a lot of elections coming up in Latin, and that

0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:23.399
<v Speaker 2>means there's a big opportunity for the landscape to just

0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:24.320
<v Speaker 2>change completely.

0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:30.240
<v Speaker 1>So they might are most of those elections going like communist, socialist.

0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:33.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean what we saw in Chile, they tried to

0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:36.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, they adopted a card carrying communist with a

0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:40.399
<v Speaker 1>new communist constitution in Brazil like that seemed to be

0:27:40.440 --> 0:27:44.000
<v Speaker 1>a pretty socialist communist you know, coup that happened there, whatever,

0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:46.080
<v Speaker 1>if you want to call it that. Are you seeing that?

0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:47.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, is that? Do you think that's hurtful for

0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:49.240
<v Speaker 1>adopting something like bitcoin.

0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, you have to run with the tides, like the

0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:55.800
<v Speaker 2>political tide will change, yeah, and sometimes it's changing for

0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:59.160
<v Speaker 2>the worst, like in your examples. But in Argentina they

0:27:59.160 --> 0:28:03.679
<v Speaker 2>have a pro bitcoin candidate, Heavier Milla, and he's spoken

0:28:03.720 --> 0:28:06.840
<v Speaker 2>about bitcoin in the past and he could potentially be

0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:11.840
<v Speaker 2>a champion a bitcoin. I know there is a potentially

0:28:11.880 --> 0:28:14.280
<v Speaker 2>pro bitcoin presidential candidate in Guatemala.

0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:15.359
<v Speaker 1>We have two in the US.

0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's amazing.

0:28:17.600 --> 0:28:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but one on both sides of the aisle.

0:28:19.880 --> 0:28:24.160
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty amazing, it is. So it's hard to say,

0:28:24.200 --> 0:28:26.920
<v Speaker 2>but we'll have to see. And this is why we've

0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:29.240
<v Speaker 2>been making trips like Jen three, We've been going on

0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:35.000
<v Speaker 2>these missions and trying to engage the next potential presidential candidates.

0:28:35.320 --> 0:28:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so what's your prediction there? Which which countries do

0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:43.080
<v Speaker 1>you think seem to be the most favorable and maybe

0:28:43.240 --> 0:28:46.720
<v Speaker 1>might be not a prediction as to which one is

0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:48.240
<v Speaker 1>the next one, but which ones, which one seemed to

0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:50.040
<v Speaker 1>be the most open, most favorable, Which ones you think

0:28:50.080 --> 0:28:52.720
<v Speaker 1>will probably move into some sort of maybe not even

0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:54.360
<v Speaker 1>full adoption, but acceptance.

0:28:55.320 --> 0:28:58.480
<v Speaker 2>It's hard to say. I can't predict the outcome of

0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:03.040
<v Speaker 2>the elections, but there are certain countries that could potentially

0:29:03.880 --> 0:29:06.239
<v Speaker 2>adopt bitcoin. So I guess the question is what does

0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:08.880
<v Speaker 2>adopt bitcoin mean? If it means bitcoin legal tender, and

0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:11.560
<v Speaker 2>then I have no idea because it's really hard. Al

0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Salvador is a unique oddity I think, in which they

0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:20.000
<v Speaker 2>had a presisd Boo Kelly has a super majority of

0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:23.520
<v Speaker 2>the Congress, right, so they can pass the laws very easily,

0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:26.400
<v Speaker 2>whereas in most other countries it's very hard to get

0:29:26.400 --> 0:29:29.960
<v Speaker 2>anything passed. So if you ask me which country is

0:29:30.000 --> 0:29:32.520
<v Speaker 2>going to put out a bitcoin law, I have no idea.

0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:35.480
<v Speaker 2>But I think there are countries that could adopt bitcoin.

0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:37.880
<v Speaker 2>And when I say adopt bitcoin, it's more broad. It

0:29:37.880 --> 0:29:40.440
<v Speaker 2>could be mining, it could be with a bond or

0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:44.600
<v Speaker 2>just having bitcoined, a treasury asset, or a law. It

0:29:44.600 --> 0:29:47.760
<v Speaker 2>could be any of those things. So Guatemala, I think

0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:51.360
<v Speaker 2>is interesting because they have a law already called divisis,

0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:54.400
<v Speaker 2>which is they allow you to use any foreign currency

0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:58.720
<v Speaker 2>and with bitcoin as legal tender, and al Salvador it

0:29:58.800 --> 0:30:03.640
<v Speaker 2>is a foreign currency. So that standing of bitcoin from

0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:06.720
<v Speaker 2>Alsalva or adopting it is actually very important because that

0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:10.360
<v Speaker 2>lets us do more interesting things with it because it

0:30:10.440 --> 0:30:16.680
<v Speaker 2>has formal recognition. So Guatemala, they don't actually need a law.

0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Someone just has to say, basically interpreting the current law,

0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:24.600
<v Speaker 2>that bitcoin can be used for payments and everything, and

0:30:24.600 --> 0:30:26.840
<v Speaker 2>then you're done. And we're working with some people in

0:30:26.840 --> 0:30:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Mexico to see if the Mexican law would afford that

0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:36.120
<v Speaker 2>same option. And Panama is also interesting too because they

0:30:36.160 --> 0:30:38.440
<v Speaker 2>don't have a central bank and it was founded on

0:30:38.480 --> 0:30:41.320
<v Speaker 2>the premise that you can use whatever money you choose to.

0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:45.920
<v Speaker 2>So Guatemala and Panama could potentially be the next ones.

0:30:46.320 --> 0:30:49.000
<v Speaker 2>But they would be easy because they don't need to

0:30:49.040 --> 0:30:51.280
<v Speaker 2>do anything. Someone just has to say, yes, you can

0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:55.640
<v Speaker 2>use bitcoin, Yes you can use bitcoin, and you're done.

0:30:55.920 --> 0:30:58.800
<v Speaker 1>So seeing as you've left blockstream, you've gone over here.

0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:01.560
<v Speaker 1>This is your thing now now a nation state option

0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:05.400
<v Speaker 1>top down, bottom up, and hitting both those approaches actively

0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:09.720
<v Speaker 1>working with the governments, et cetera, trying to I don't

0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:13.360
<v Speaker 1>want to say influence, educate education, educate potential people, right,

0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:16.160
<v Speaker 1>the education you don't need to influence if you can

0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:18.960
<v Speaker 1>educate them properly, I guess right. So then what is

0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:21.280
<v Speaker 1>what's your goal? I mean, what's the outlook here?

0:31:21.400 --> 0:31:26.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean the goal is to ensure an orderly transition

0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:29.600
<v Speaker 2>into a bitcoin standard. So if you look at the

0:31:29.600 --> 0:31:34.200
<v Speaker 2>world today, it's still mostly on FIAT, but you and

0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:37.680
<v Speaker 2>I both believe we're probably moving to a bitcoin standard ultimately, right,

0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:39.480
<v Speaker 2>The question is when? On what timeframe?

0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:41.920
<v Speaker 1>I think it's certin We would certainly agree that all

0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:46.000
<v Speaker 1>fiats are dying and they're on their last legs and

0:31:46.040 --> 0:31:48.520
<v Speaker 1>there has to be a replacement, and there's not another

0:31:48.560 --> 0:31:51.560
<v Speaker 1>Fiat replacement, so what is it? So then it's almost

0:31:51.600 --> 0:31:53.840
<v Speaker 1>like we need a decentralized ledger that nobody can control.

0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:55.040
<v Speaker 1>It's almost like that.

0:31:55.800 --> 0:31:59.000
<v Speaker 2>So if we are going there, then it's better to

0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:01.840
<v Speaker 2>It depends on your time horizons too, so I'm thinking

0:32:01.880 --> 0:32:04.400
<v Speaker 2>five to ten years, and in five to ten years

0:32:05.120 --> 0:32:09.040
<v Speaker 2>that's pretty quick actually, and it means that countries need

0:32:09.080 --> 0:32:12.320
<v Speaker 2>to start adopting now and having some sort of bitcoin

0:32:12.400 --> 0:32:16.000
<v Speaker 2>strategy in place, because when it comes time when the

0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:19.280
<v Speaker 2>shit hit the fan. You don't want people to try

0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:21.840
<v Speaker 2>to figure out how do I get my feet into bitcoin?

0:32:22.120 --> 0:32:25.640
<v Speaker 2>That's just mass chaos. And you've seen this historically through

0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:29.440
<v Speaker 2>demonetization events India and twenty sixteen had one. They pulled

0:32:29.440 --> 0:32:32.640
<v Speaker 2>some notes out of circulation. People actually died because they

0:32:32.680 --> 0:32:36.640
<v Speaker 2>couldn't pay for medical procedures, or they died from exposure

0:32:36.640 --> 0:32:38.600
<v Speaker 2>from lining up trying to convert their old bill to

0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:42.440
<v Speaker 2>the new bill. But just take that and imagine all

0:32:42.480 --> 0:32:45.960
<v Speaker 2>fiat moneys are now failing rapidly and people need to

0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:48.320
<v Speaker 2>get into bitcoin. You need to have all those rails

0:32:48.360 --> 0:32:52.440
<v Speaker 2>in place, all that infrastructure in place, and the government

0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:55.560
<v Speaker 2>needs to know what to do because they control a

0:32:55.600 --> 0:32:59.640
<v Speaker 2>lot of the money still. So our thinking is if

0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:03.880
<v Speaker 2>we can get them onto some sort of bitcoin adoption strategy,

0:33:03.920 --> 0:33:07.440
<v Speaker 2>now we can mitigate that chaos down the road, yeah,

0:33:07.920 --> 0:33:12.160
<v Speaker 2>and have an orderly transition and people can move into bitcoin.

0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:15.320
<v Speaker 2>So parallel tracks. So like Al Salvador, they're still on

0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:18.240
<v Speaker 2>the dollar, but they have bitcoin. You could be Argentina

0:33:18.480 --> 0:33:22.280
<v Speaker 2>and be dollarized and with bitcoin, or you could be

0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Mexico and have the Mexican peso and bitcoin. Sure, and

0:33:25.800 --> 0:33:28.120
<v Speaker 2>this in my view, is the best outcome we can

0:33:28.160 --> 0:33:31.200
<v Speaker 2>get for the next few years to have parallel tracks

0:33:31.240 --> 0:33:32.160
<v Speaker 2>in multiple places.

0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:34.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, And a lot of that could be driven

0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:38.040
<v Speaker 1>bottom up, I mean, if there's demand for it. So

0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:39.960
<v Speaker 1>in Mexico they have the peso, but they also accept

0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:42.280
<v Speaker 1>dollars in a lot of places, right, not everywhere, and

0:33:42.320 --> 0:33:44.640
<v Speaker 1>they get the real places they won't. But I also

0:33:44.720 --> 0:33:47.720
<v Speaker 1>really like the bitcoin bond situation because now any country

0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:51.000
<v Speaker 1>that has excess energy could instantly start making revenue. And

0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:53.360
<v Speaker 1>I think it's kind of interesting because if you look

0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:54.959
<v Speaker 1>back through history, it was like the nations that had

0:33:55.040 --> 0:33:58.640
<v Speaker 1>natural resources, you know, typically oil that flourish because they

0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:00.560
<v Speaker 1>had that cheap amount of energy. And now you have

0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:02.920
<v Speaker 1>a nation like Al Salvador who has really no natural

0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:06.720
<v Speaker 1>resources bananas or whatever, right, but they have this volcano.

0:34:07.560 --> 0:34:09.680
<v Speaker 1>Was a volcano good for Well, now they could create

0:34:10.440 --> 0:34:12.520
<v Speaker 1>revenue off of that. And then you look at like

0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:15.319
<v Speaker 1>the landscape of like the South Pacific and all the

0:34:15.360 --> 0:34:18.720
<v Speaker 1>atolls that have volcanoes on them, and like the ability

0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:21.239
<v Speaker 1>for them to start generating revenue off of that. So

0:34:21.280 --> 0:34:25.200
<v Speaker 1>it seems like the greed aspect is always a good angle,

0:34:25.280 --> 0:34:28.360
<v Speaker 1>right If governments can create excess revenue and potentially raise

0:34:28.480 --> 0:34:30.319
<v Speaker 1>extra revenue off of bonds without having to go through

0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:31.480
<v Speaker 1>the IMF or whatever like.

0:34:33.120 --> 0:34:35.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think the biggest benefit of the bonds is

0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:38.640
<v Speaker 2>that they can raise the capital to tap into those resources.

0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:44.560
<v Speaker 2>So Al Salvador has to expand their geothermal generation capacity still, right,

0:34:44.840 --> 0:34:47.200
<v Speaker 2>they only have a few plants right now, but they

0:34:47.200 --> 0:34:50.120
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of geothermal potential, right, But the bond

0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:52.920
<v Speaker 2>would let them build new plants, and then once the

0:34:52.960 --> 0:34:58.720
<v Speaker 2>plants are built, they're good for fifty eighty years. And

0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:02.680
<v Speaker 2>that's all bitcoin. And I think that transformation is not

0:35:02.840 --> 0:35:06.040
<v Speaker 2>yet fully appreciated by most people around the world. They

0:35:06.040 --> 0:35:11.320
<v Speaker 2>don't yet understand that bitcoin is now money, and money

0:35:11.360 --> 0:35:15.040
<v Speaker 2>is now bitcoin. Bitcoin is information and energy. So if

0:35:15.080 --> 0:35:19.040
<v Speaker 2>you have energy, you have money. Right. So the Middle

0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:21.600
<v Speaker 2>East has lots of oil and they've figured it out

0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:24.840
<v Speaker 2>pretty easily. Well, oil is money. We can build cities

0:35:24.880 --> 0:35:29.800
<v Speaker 2>in the desert. And in the case of the UAE,

0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:33.120
<v Speaker 2>they actually pay you to be AMORTI. You don't pay taxes,

0:35:33.560 --> 0:35:38.239
<v Speaker 2>you get paid. And this can actually happen in many

0:35:38.239 --> 0:35:40.320
<v Speaker 2>places around the world. It could happen in Al Salvador

0:35:40.880 --> 0:35:46.120
<v Speaker 2>and Indonesia in the Philippines. So Indonesia and the Philippines

0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:49.160
<v Speaker 2>have a massive amount of geothermal energy. So if they

0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:52.120
<v Speaker 2>can just tap into that, they could be the next

0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:57.719
<v Speaker 2>Dubai or whatever. Right, Yeah, and I think this potential

0:35:58.200 --> 0:36:01.239
<v Speaker 2>is what we're trying to educate them on align their incentives.

0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:03.600
<v Speaker 2>So if you think about bitcoin from a very high level,

0:36:03.880 --> 0:36:07.320
<v Speaker 2>this is a piece of software that brilliantly aligns incentives

0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:12.839
<v Speaker 2>across the board between end users, miners, and everyone else. Right,

0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:16.440
<v Speaker 2>And we can kind of take that and amplify that

0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:19.399
<v Speaker 2>for nation states too and show them, well, you can

0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:22.919
<v Speaker 2>mine bitcoin and you don't need to tax anybody, because

0:36:22.920 --> 0:36:25.240
<v Speaker 2>every country right now is looking for ways to generate

0:36:25.280 --> 0:36:28.759
<v Speaker 2>tax revenue. Sure, so why not just tap into what

0:36:28.840 --> 0:36:32.719
<v Speaker 2>you have? And I think with the Global seuth they're

0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:36.240
<v Speaker 2>more amenable to this concept. Right, like the G seven,

0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:38.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't have a lot of hope. Canada has massive

0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:42.480
<v Speaker 2>amounts of hydropower. Right Technically, in Canada you could fit

0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:46.520
<v Speaker 2>three entire bitcoin networks. Wow, and just mine in Canada.

0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:48.160
<v Speaker 2>There's enough energy for that.

0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:50.319
<v Speaker 1>But Canada has no gold either, So yeah, for them,

0:36:50.360 --> 0:36:51.120
<v Speaker 1>we have zero goal.

0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:55.799
<v Speaker 2>So until there's a seismic shift in the government, then

0:36:56.280 --> 0:36:59.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't have much hope, but in the end, necessity drives.

0:36:59.760 --> 0:37:01.440
<v Speaker 1>A lot of change back where the pain's high enough.

0:37:01.520 --> 0:37:03.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we'll see what happens. Yeah, hopeful.

0:37:03.520 --> 0:37:05.760
<v Speaker 1>No, I love it, you know. You back to Saudi Arabia.

0:37:05.760 --> 0:37:07.359
<v Speaker 1>I mean the benefits they have is they can get

0:37:07.360 --> 0:37:09.080
<v Speaker 1>the oil on the ground and they can ship the oil.

0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:13.880
<v Speaker 1>But you can't ship energy from a geothermal unit, like

0:37:13.880 --> 0:37:16.480
<v Speaker 1>like you can't really transmit that very far. There's no

0:37:16.480 --> 0:37:18.760
<v Speaker 1>way to package it and ship it. And so mining

0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:20.759
<v Speaker 1>allows them to monetize that.

0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And the beautiful thing is I tell them, like,

0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:26.279
<v Speaker 2>even if you don't believe in bitcoin and you don't

0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:29.279
<v Speaker 2>want it, just mine it and sell to someone else, right,

0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:31.439
<v Speaker 2>someone else will buy it, will even if.

0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:33.120
<v Speaker 1>You think it's fools gold. Yeah, and people want to

0:37:33.120 --> 0:37:33.839
<v Speaker 1>buy it, sell this.

0:37:34.480 --> 0:37:38.880
<v Speaker 2>There's this incredibly liquid market and there are buyers. Yeah,

0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:41.040
<v Speaker 2>so it's almost negligent.

0:37:41.120 --> 0:37:42.680
<v Speaker 1>And have they been pretty receptive to that.

0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:45.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's usually the light bulb moment. Yeah, I tell them, first,

0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:50.600
<v Speaker 2>your energy could fund everything through bitcoin, and then you

0:37:50.640 --> 0:37:52.320
<v Speaker 2>don't have to keep bitcoin. You can just sell it

0:37:52.360 --> 0:37:52.920
<v Speaker 2>all and.

0:37:52.880 --> 0:37:54.479
<v Speaker 1>You don't even have to mention bitcoin. It's like Hey,

0:37:54.760 --> 0:37:56.560
<v Speaker 1>would you like to make an extra billion dollars a

0:37:56.680 --> 0:38:00.279
<v Speaker 1>year or whatever that's way more or whatever that number

0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:02.040
<v Speaker 1>is right, And then well, how do I make an

0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:05.520
<v Speaker 1>extra billion dollars by running data centers? What the data

0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:08.080
<v Speaker 1>centers do doesn't really matter, and you just kind of

0:38:08.080 --> 0:38:10.600
<v Speaker 1>like work your way in. If you drop bitcoin too soon,

0:38:10.640 --> 0:38:12.600
<v Speaker 1>they're like, oh, never mind, never mind, are kind of

0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:14.840
<v Speaker 1>a thing like that. So is your theory? Then you

0:38:14.880 --> 0:38:18.480
<v Speaker 1>said five ten years, which it's always timeframe. Five ten

0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:21.360
<v Speaker 1>years is actually seems pretty short. Pretty short time frame

0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:24.719
<v Speaker 1>it is. But you think like a game theory will

0:38:24.719 --> 0:38:27.560
<v Speaker 1>play out here where potentially the G seven, maybe even

0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:30.720
<v Speaker 1>more than that, really get aggressive and try to clamp

0:38:30.719 --> 0:38:32.640
<v Speaker 1>down because they're trying to protect the status quote they

0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:34.759
<v Speaker 1>want their system to maintain. But the people who aren't

0:38:34.800 --> 0:38:37.680
<v Speaker 1>in the system, they don't care. They have nothing to lose, right,

0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:40.239
<v Speaker 1>and so those ones will adopt, And if that happens out,

0:38:40.280 --> 0:38:43.960
<v Speaker 1>then those countries will have the upper hand, the advantage.

0:38:44.120 --> 0:38:45.279
<v Speaker 1>How you see it kind of playing out.

0:38:45.320 --> 0:38:47.200
<v Speaker 2>I think they'll try to clamp down, but they're going

0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:52.080
<v Speaker 2>to face civil unrest at home just because their policies

0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:54.640
<v Speaker 2>make no sense, right, Like, if you look at Germany,

0:38:54.680 --> 0:38:57.759
<v Speaker 2>they shut down all their nuclear and then they're burning coal, right,

0:38:58.080 --> 0:38:59.560
<v Speaker 2>and they're proud of that for some reason.

0:38:59.680 --> 0:39:03.040
<v Speaker 1>But they're they're they're chopping down forests and burning wood

0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:03.960
<v Speaker 1>and they're proud of that. Yeah.

0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:07.000
<v Speaker 2>I think they're importing trees from the US to burn too,

0:39:07.480 --> 0:39:10.799
<v Speaker 2>So I don't see how sustainable that is.

0:39:11.000 --> 0:39:11.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:39:11.360 --> 0:39:14.439
<v Speaker 2>So they might try to clamp down or crack down,

0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:20.760
<v Speaker 2>but they're just going to self immolate themselves, self destruct. Yeah,

0:39:20.840 --> 0:39:23.920
<v Speaker 2>so I don't think they can successfully clamp down. And

0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:28.560
<v Speaker 2>as Bitcoin's dominance grows, those globalist organizations lose more and

0:39:28.600 --> 0:39:31.040
<v Speaker 2>more power too. So all you need to do is

0:39:31.120 --> 0:39:33.319
<v Speaker 2>have a few bitcoin bonds in the wild, right, And

0:39:33.400 --> 0:39:36.160
<v Speaker 2>that just makes and I am a I am f

0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:37.720
<v Speaker 2>loan look useless.

0:39:37.920 --> 0:39:42.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, that's the game theory. So as long as

0:39:42.000 --> 0:39:43.719
<v Speaker 1>one or two people are doing it, then other people

0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:46.600
<v Speaker 1>are going to see that. I did see Liechtenstein said

0:39:46.600 --> 0:39:48.920
<v Speaker 1>they were going to start accepting bitcoin for government payments,

0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:51.680
<v Speaker 1>and so again that's just like another little crack in

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:55.400
<v Speaker 1>the game theory, so to speak, you know, the more adoption.

0:39:55.719 --> 0:39:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well we're engaged with Litenstein, Oh you are, Yeah, Okay,

0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:00.920
<v Speaker 2>we're engaged with a lot of countr Yeah, we can't

0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:03.160
<v Speaker 2>talk about a lot of stuff yet, but yeah, yeah,

0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:05.840
<v Speaker 2>if you knew everything I knew, you'd be super bolish

0:40:05.840 --> 0:40:06.360
<v Speaker 2>on bitcoin.

0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:10.399
<v Speaker 1>I'm already bullish on bitcoin, but maybe so that's good.

0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:13.000
<v Speaker 1>So okay, so you can't disclose it. But if we knew,

0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:14.360
<v Speaker 1>if we knew what you knew, if we knew what

0:40:14.400 --> 0:40:17.439
<v Speaker 1>was going on in the conversations inside some of these governments,

0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:19.319
<v Speaker 1>it's pretty favorable, I would say.

0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:22.359
<v Speaker 2>So it's just pragmatism at the end of the day.

0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:24.480
<v Speaker 1>Right, I mean, I just go back to just human greed,

0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:28.480
<v Speaker 1>like which government doesn't want more money? Which government doesn't

0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:32.800
<v Speaker 1>want to turn more of the resources into money.

0:40:32.320 --> 0:40:34.840
<v Speaker 2>And they all do except for some of the G sevens.

0:40:35.120 --> 0:40:37.440
<v Speaker 1>Except for some of the G sevens, And that's the

0:40:37.440 --> 0:40:39.600
<v Speaker 1>pain is not high enough. They can still just print

0:40:39.719 --> 0:40:41.880
<v Speaker 1>for now, right, But the nations that aren't able to

0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:44.160
<v Speaker 1>do that, like George Carlin, and there's a big old club,

0:40:44.200 --> 0:40:45.400
<v Speaker 1>and you're not in it. So all those countries, they

0:40:45.360 --> 0:40:47.560
<v Speaker 1>are not in it, and their choices either one go

0:40:47.640 --> 0:40:50.400
<v Speaker 1>to the IMF and give up massive amounts of sovereignty,

0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:55.440
<v Speaker 1>potentially change the entire makeup of their country. In Ukraine,

0:40:55.440 --> 0:40:58.040
<v Speaker 1>I saw this article this week. It was the third

0:40:58.120 --> 0:41:01.680
<v Speaker 1>largest debtor to the IMF, and the IMF is making

0:41:01.680 --> 0:41:06.840
<v Speaker 1>them change the entire property ownership of their government. Their country.

0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:09.440
<v Speaker 1>Ukraine is the bread basket of Europe, right, some of

0:41:09.480 --> 0:41:11.480
<v Speaker 1>the most fertile land, and they're taking all the land

0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:14.120
<v Speaker 1>from the farmers and basically give them to the oligarchs. Yeah,

0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:16.680
<v Speaker 1>and so like, if you're a country that doesn't want

0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:18.960
<v Speaker 1>to give that up, what's your other option?

0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:21.000
<v Speaker 2>It's only bitcoin.

0:41:21.080 --> 0:41:25.680
<v Speaker 1>It's only bitcoin. Yeah, So okay, well I think we

0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:27.160
<v Speaker 1>can end it with that. Man, if we knew what

0:41:27.200 --> 0:41:30.440
<v Speaker 1>you knew, we'd be even more bullish on bitcoin. Anything

0:41:30.480 --> 0:41:33.160
<v Speaker 1>else that you want to talk about or draw attention to.

0:41:33.200 --> 0:41:35.440
<v Speaker 1>What can people do to get involved in this anything?

0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:39.040
<v Speaker 2>So last year when I was on stage, I said,

0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:41.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, everyone should try to do something. Yeah, And

0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:46.000
<v Speaker 2>I think that maybe stirred up some people, But a

0:41:46.040 --> 0:41:48.839
<v Speaker 2>lot of people have started reaching out and engaging with us.

0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:52.520
<v Speaker 2>So we have, you know, groups in multiple countries working

0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:56.320
<v Speaker 2>with US, facilitating meetings and doing.

0:41:56.239 --> 0:41:59.879
<v Speaker 1>That with AQUA or with just nation state nation state.

0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I think the call, I would say is

0:42:03.600 --> 0:42:05.480
<v Speaker 2>keep doing that, Like you can reach out. You don't

0:42:05.480 --> 0:42:07.480
<v Speaker 2>need to talk to me or Jenna three, but you

0:42:07.480 --> 0:42:09.920
<v Speaker 2>should try to do something and try to fix the

0:42:09.920 --> 0:42:12.080
<v Speaker 2>system that you're in because it's only.

0:42:11.880 --> 0:42:13.960
<v Speaker 1>An awareness, change the conversation.

0:42:14.200 --> 0:42:16.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's only through our work that we can affect change.

0:42:17.000 --> 0:42:19.200
<v Speaker 2>If we just sit back and wait, nothing will happen.

0:42:19.360 --> 0:42:22.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. And I know we

0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:25.759
<v Speaker 1>have a big international audience, So talk about it, share

0:42:25.800 --> 0:42:29.960
<v Speaker 1>the information, continue to bring adoption or just education around it,

0:42:30.200 --> 0:42:33.200
<v Speaker 1>and we can really have a bottom up approach. And

0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:34.719
<v Speaker 1>I think kind of like we's on Al Salvador. You

0:42:34.719 --> 0:42:36.439
<v Speaker 1>get that bottom up approach and then the top goes,

0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:38.759
<v Speaker 1>what the heck is going on? Oh it's pretty good,

0:42:38.800 --> 0:42:41.880
<v Speaker 1>let's go do that. So cool, all right, Samson, Well,

0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:42.799
<v Speaker 1>thank you appreciate it.

0:42:42.840 --> 0:42:43.839
<v Speaker 2>Thanks Mark, It's been fun.

0:42:43.920 --> 0:42:44.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah,