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Speaker 1: So Samson, Samson, mal Mark Xcelion, Mark Moss, Thanks, thanks

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Speaker 1: for sitting down with me. I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: your big project that you're working on, which is the

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Speaker 1: biggest project and probably the most important project, which is

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Speaker 1: like sovereign state nation state nation state adoption. But let's

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Speaker 1: start back a little bit on some backstory. So Blockstream. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: So Blockstream potentially arguably the biggest, most important kind of

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Speaker 1: company in the bitcoin space.

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Speaker 2: Still is one of the most important companies. Okay, and

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Speaker 2: I was there, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You were there, So what was that? What were you

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Speaker 1: doing there?

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Speaker 2: So at Blockstream, I was the chief Strategy Officer, which

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Speaker 2: kind of is a very broad title, and I was

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Speaker 2: handling a variety of things, basically business, product and marketing,

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Speaker 2: but trying to take the stuff that we're building and

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Speaker 2: make it more palatable for the masses and accessible. So

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Speaker 2: Blockstream is a very engineering heavy company, a lot of

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Speaker 2: very talented skilled engineers at the protocol level, but then

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Speaker 2: making something that people can use as a product or

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Speaker 2: app on their phone, I think is a slightly different

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Speaker 2: skill set. So that was what I was bringing to

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Speaker 2: the table and trying to do that and also get

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Speaker 2: more liquid adoption that's the bitcoin side chain, and I

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Speaker 2: ended up working with Al Salvador on their bitcoin law

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Speaker 2: push and the subsequent digital securities laws.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so what products were they that blockstream graded that

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Speaker 1: you were pushing for adoption?

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Speaker 2: Basically everything, So green wallet it's a bitcoin and liquid wallet,

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Speaker 2: the liquid network itself. We're trying to bootstrap the federation

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Speaker 2: and get more members involved, more exchanges to integrate and

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Speaker 2: basically be prepared for high fee environments where there is

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Speaker 2: congestion and kind of like now, yeah, well it's past now,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, it'll it comes up from time to time,

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Speaker 2: and it shows that you still need that use case. Right,

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Speaker 2: Lightning is good for payments, micro transactions, but not great

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Speaker 2: for moving large amounts of bitcoin back and forth very rapidly.

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Speaker 2: So again this is a great time to reiterate that

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Speaker 2: you need tech like side chains to let people move quickly. Right,

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Speaker 2: everyone can technic open a really big lightning channel to

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Speaker 2: an exchange, but at that point you might as well

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Speaker 2: just send it on chain R. So it just shows

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Speaker 2: that it's very it's a very critical piece of bitcoin infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: Liquid be in a side chain, yes.

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Speaker 2: And then blockxom also had blocks from Satellite which is

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Speaker 2: the satellite constellation in geosynchronous orbit that's broadcasting the Bitcoin

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Speaker 2: blockchain all around us right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a big project.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another critical piece of infrastructure. So that one

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Speaker 2: actually helps prevent against network splits. So if an undersea

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Speaker 2: cables cut to a particular region with a lot of mining, which.

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Speaker 1: Is a potentially big attack.

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Speaker 2: Vector exactly, So that would mitigate that because as long

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Speaker 2: as one person there is running a Bitcoin node and

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Speaker 2: then to the satellite, then they will kind of bridge

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Speaker 2: all those transactions with the rest of the network. So

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Speaker 2: that's another way to prevent high level attacks on the network.

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Speaker 1: What about let's talk about that just for a second.

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Speaker 1: So this is something that I've been thinking about. We

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Speaker 1: saw something I will get into, but I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: seeing the rise of censorship centers, of a movement of

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Speaker 1: communication obviously payment technology, etc. And if it doesn't you

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Speaker 1: don't have to go too far back. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, I think I saw like Chinese submarines were

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Speaker 1: like hovering over, like Taiwan's like internet cables. I think

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Speaker 1: I saw like a news headline, right. I think it

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Speaker 1: was in the Arab Spring Egypt cut the internet going

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Speaker 1: into Egypt, right to try to cut that down. So

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Speaker 1: I think in the US there's somewhere three to five

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Speaker 1: cables that give all the Internet here, so we just

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Speaker 1: cut those off and then there's no Internet. And so

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Speaker 1: that seems like it would be an attack on bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: right if you'd cut off the Internet. So does the

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Speaker 1: blockstream satellites do they prevent the help attack, help prevent

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Speaker 1: against that attack or just against the bitcoin network attack?

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Speaker 2: Probably just for bitcoin for bitcoin, Yeah, but it's it

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Speaker 2: could be scaled up. I mean, I think Adam Beck

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Speaker 2: is working on bidirectional colms through bloxtoom satellite, and in

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Speaker 2: that case it could potentially help with other things, but

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Speaker 2: it's never going to be able to sustain like a

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Speaker 2: country level load of data transfer, right Yeah. So but

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Speaker 2: I think that kind of attack is mitigated now with

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Speaker 2: things like starlink, right, so you're not completely dependent on

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Speaker 2: terrestrial internet. So blocktoam satellite was the first step to

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Speaker 2: kind of decentralize away from trustrial internet, and then you

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Speaker 2: have starlink as a second layer on that.

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Speaker 1: But in regards to the in regards to the just

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Speaker 1: the blockstream satellites, could you still transact bitcoin? You just

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Speaker 1: can't use the Internet. I'm not saying like the whole

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Speaker 1: country move onto Internet, Like we have starlink for that,

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Speaker 1: but would you still able to use bitcoin?

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Speaker 2: Do that? You can keep your note in sync, but

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Speaker 2: if you want to send the transaction, you'll have to

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Speaker 2: find a way to get it over SMS or something else.

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Speaker 2: Got it until Adam finishes bi directional got it? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Okay? All right? So those are the big projects.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what else was there? Blockshream mining was another thing

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Speaker 2: that we started.

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Speaker 1: Like kind of one of the later projects, right.

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Speaker 2: Not that late. I think that started around the time

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Speaker 2: I joined because I kind of foresaw that China was

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Speaker 2: gonna clamp down on mining, so we wanted to start

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Speaker 2: that movement of hash rate out of China. I think

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Speaker 2: we're one of the first to set up in North

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Speaker 2: America actually. And what else is there? At Blockstream? It's

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Speaker 2: been a while since i've shield blockstream stuff. I think

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Speaker 2: there's gotta be one more lightning of course. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: the early blockstream project, but a lot of the things

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Speaker 2: also blo info it was the one of the first

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Speaker 2: really important block explorer projects too, because this is another

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Speaker 2: potential attack factor too, like coming off of the block

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Speaker 2: size wars, it was actually a bit of a precarious

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Speaker 2: environment because the big blockers were controlling all the block explorers,

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Speaker 2: so they could just flip it to I don't know,

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Speaker 2: be cash and say this is the real chain, and

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Speaker 2: you'll confuse a large chunk of the world thinking well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: my transaction is not there while it's on the real

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Speaker 2: bitcoin now right right. So having that and then mempool

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Speaker 2: space coming out I think helps with that because that

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Speaker 2: mitigates one more attack factor. But if you look at

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Speaker 2: it from a high level, a lot of the stuff

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Speaker 2: that blockstream is working on is to kind of augment

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Speaker 2: Bitcoin and mitigate high level attacks.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about the high level attacks. Because you

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Speaker 1: were around and somewhat instrumental during the block size wars,

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Speaker 1: the nerd wars, the civil wars or whatever, right, which

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Speaker 1: was basically trying to do that change the block size.

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Speaker 1: So what was your position in that? I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know you were someone instrumental. Explain that and it seems

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Speaker 1: like that same conversation is popping back up again today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's a it's a bit less of a

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Speaker 2: threat these days. I mean, it's just a bunch of

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Speaker 2: guys with NFTs, so it's a bit different. Back then,

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Speaker 2: it was almost every single miner, mining pool, and almost

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Speaker 2: every exchange, so it's a very different landscape today than

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Speaker 2: it was back then. But yeah, like you're saying it

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Speaker 2: was an attack, it was people trying to change the

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Speaker 2: bitcoin protocol and force that through through just the being

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Speaker 2: big players in the space. Right you had coin Base,

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Speaker 2: blockchain Info, bitmain basically everybody, and then you had just

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Speaker 2: a few bulwarks of resistance, like Blockstream is one. But

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Speaker 2: Blockstream was under heavy attack at the time because it

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Speaker 2: was the RBTC guy saying blockstream controls Bitcoin, so they

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Speaker 2: can't really do much, right, They're kind of pinned down.

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Speaker 2: And then I was a COO at BTC China at

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Speaker 2: the time, and I came in and basically allied with

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Speaker 2: Adam and Blockstream, and it was a credible outside voice

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Speaker 2: that kind of said, yeah, they don't control bitcoin, No

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Speaker 2: one controls bitcoin. And then I think another exchange that

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Speaker 2: was on the side of fighting for small blocks was bitfinex,

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Speaker 2: and they opened up some of the markets that later

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Speaker 2: on helped kill some of those forks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so in that I mean basically the chain was

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Speaker 1: forked and so we got the big blockchain BTC or

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Speaker 1: b BCH a ry and then now the BSV hard

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Speaker 1: to keep trap BCH. So that's the big blocks, and

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Speaker 1: then we kept the small blocks and the chains forked

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Speaker 1: and so then it was about who was going to

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Speaker 1: choose which chain to run with? Yeah, and so then

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Speaker 1: with these big players, which one were they going to

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Speaker 1: start signaling? Is that kind of how went down?

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Speaker 2: Well, more or less they were. There were several forks

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Speaker 2: that they were supporting. I think it was like bitcoin XT,

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Speaker 2: Bitcoin Unlimited, Bitcoin Classic. It's like with two x and

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Speaker 2: then be cash came. But they were just pushing every

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Speaker 2: single one trying to find one that's stuck, and none

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Speaker 2: of them stuck and none of them succeeded.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the fight was over trying to increase the

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Speaker 1: block size. So you get more through put on that,

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Speaker 1: do you think? Because blockstream was already working on Liquid

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Speaker 1: as a side chain, So then they realized that the

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Speaker 1: scaling solution was not to increase the block size, but

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Speaker 1: was to do some sort of side chain like Lightning

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Speaker 1: or Liquid. Is that why I kind of where Blockstreams

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Speaker 1: kind of ideology was on that they realized the scaling

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Speaker 1: solution was something different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think it's Adam's thinking, which is very

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Speaker 2: based on computer science, right, which is yet to scale

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Speaker 2: technology and layers. Otherwise you can end up with gigabyte

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Speaker 2: sized blocks or terabyte blocks, and then the network just

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Speaker 2: centralizes again back to data centers, right, which is kind

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Speaker 2: of the problem with ethereum. Right. But if you want

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Speaker 2: everything else, yeah, if you want bitcoin to be decentralized,

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Speaker 2: you have to keep the block small. But that was

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Speaker 2: the battle on the surface, which was we want to

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Speaker 2: scale it to help people, or as Roger Vera would say,

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Speaker 2: so everyone could buy coffee with bitcoin right.

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Speaker 1: On the main chain, on the main chain, because I

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Speaker 1: need my coffee to be immutable for all of history.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's what we're seeing.

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Speaker 1: Today, Like I don't want to be censored on my

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Speaker 1: cup of coffee exactly.

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Speaker 2: It's so important. Yeah, but we're seeing a little of

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Speaker 2: that today with the pictures on the chain, with the

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Speaker 2: ordinals and all the other stuff, right, Like, you don't

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Speaker 2: need your picture in the chain and immutable for all

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Speaker 2: time because that can be copied. What you really want

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Speaker 2: is a certificate or a pointer or a timestamp. Really,

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Speaker 2: but that's a we can get in that later if

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Speaker 2: you want. But the fight was on the surface level

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Speaker 2: that we need to help if you help everybody and

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Speaker 2: scale bitcoin, right, But I think at a deeper level

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Speaker 2: it was about fighting to change the protocol and using

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Speaker 2: a very innoculous, seemingly friendly, helpful way to do so,

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Speaker 2: which was because we want to buy coffee and let

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Speaker 2: the unbanged to use bitcoin. But if you can change

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Speaker 2: the block size, you can change everything else. So it's

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Speaker 2: a very slippery slope and it would set a very

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Speaker 2: bad precedent that bitcoin can just.

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Speaker 1: Like we were talking about before we start recording, just

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Speaker 1: like with ethereum. So Ethereum changed the monetary policy to

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Speaker 1: be the ultrasound money.

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Speaker 2: They can change to be anything they want, but.

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Speaker 1: The fact that they changed it means they're not exactly Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so by changing to become that, the change actually proved

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Speaker 1: that they can't be that.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the FED could become ultrasound money too. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but they can also print and they can tighten. They

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Speaker 2: can do whatever they want. So it's the same with theorem.

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Speaker 2: They can change it at will. But the block size

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Speaker 2: war was too was over that discussion like can it

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Speaker 2: be changed? And the answer is no.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, on the ordinal piece. To your point, putting the

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Speaker 1: jpeg in there seems a little silly. Putting the King

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Speaker 1: James Bible in there doesn't seem so silly, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: people today, over the last decades, decades, two decades, have

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Speaker 1: been literally risking their lives, laying their lives down to

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Speaker 1: sneak a physical copy of a Bible into China or

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Speaker 1: North Korea. And now it can just be in the

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Speaker 1: censorship resistant network. Whatever they want to censor. Three D

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Speaker 1: gun schematics could be in there. So while the jpeg

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Speaker 1: seems a little silly, I mean, there could be good

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Speaker 1: use cases I suppose for that type of script. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think Michael Saylor said that he'd put his

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Speaker 2: will on the chain, and.

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Speaker 1: The will would be a good example.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that could be good too, But I think you

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Speaker 2: can get the same effect if the If there's no

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Speaker 2: censorship of the thing, then you don't need to put

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Speaker 2: it on. But if there is, then maybe it would help.

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Speaker 1: Right, But if you need censorship resistance and immutability.

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Speaker 2: If you need censorship resistance, you need. But most use cases,

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Speaker 2: like the will, I don't think it's cool, But no

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Speaker 2: one's going to censor your will.

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Speaker 1: What about those movies you know where like they sneak

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Speaker 1: into the library and they get the dad's will and

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Speaker 1: they change it.

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Speaker 2: Well, you can do a timestem.

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Speaker 1: You can have it your a journey.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you can hash it, right, So you just

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Speaker 2: embed the hash, right, and that solves ninety nine point

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Speaker 2: ninety nine of all use cases.

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Speaker 1: Right, And embedding a hash would then point to the

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Speaker 1: location where it's at.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you could do that too, but the key thing

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Speaker 2: is you want to hash it so you can show

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Speaker 2: that this was the actual original document, right, And that's

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Speaker 2: enough for ninety nine point nine percent of every single

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Speaker 2: use case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a good point. Not everything needs to

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Speaker 1: be decentralized. Not everything needs to be censorsive resistant or

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Speaker 1: immutable like a cup of coffee. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: one thing that kind of swept over the whole, you know,

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Speaker 1: blockchain world is like, not everything has to be decentralized.

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Speaker 1: JPEGs don't need to be decentralized. Yeah, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of reasons why things actually shouldn't be decentralized or and

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Speaker 1: specifically like achieving consensus for example, like emails sort of decentralized,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't need to achieve consensus to work correct

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Speaker 1: something like that. So let's fast forward past that. So

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Speaker 1: you were working there, you guys started working on this

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Speaker 1: whole volcano bond thing, and I don't know if this started.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I don't have any inner working

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Speaker 1: knowledge of blockstream, but just you know, following along at

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Speaker 1: the back on podcast, et cetera, you launched this mining thing,

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Speaker 1: which then you kind of had a bond or some

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Speaker 1: sort of security for the mining.

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Speaker 2: The BMN, the blockstream mining note.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the big struck. Yeah, okay, did that kind of

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Speaker 1: then move into the kind of volcano mining in nel

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Speaker 1: Salad or is that kind of how that started or.

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Speaker 2: What kind of So the volcano stuff, it kind of

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Speaker 2: started as a meme because people say, oh, you have volcanoes,

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Speaker 2: you can mine bitcoin, so you should start a volcano mine.

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Speaker 2: And then I think Alistair Millen Max Kaiser said make

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Speaker 2: a volcano bond. But it was just like an idea.

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Speaker 2: But because we had constructed the blockstream mining note, I

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Speaker 2: kind of took that and created the actual structure for

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Speaker 2: what the bond could look like where they could potentially

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Speaker 2: get rid of their debt in ten years by creating

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Speaker 2: this bitcoin bond, which would be so the bigcoin bond

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Speaker 2: is the superstructure, and the superstructure is really just half

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Speaker 2: of the funds raised would go to buy bitcoin, hold

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Speaker 2: it for five years, and then share sell it and

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Speaker 2: share the upside. The other half goes into doing a

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Speaker 2: revenue generating productive activity. So it's like also to be

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Speaker 2: the best bond ever because it's backed half by hardest

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Speaker 2: asset on the planet and the other half is revenue generating,

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Speaker 2: whereas most bonds are just pure debt, pure debt and

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Speaker 2: nothing backing it except for hope. So I think it's

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Speaker 2: a more pragmatic way to create this type of instrument

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Speaker 2: as we move to a future where money could evaporate

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Speaker 2: and disappear one day. So you denominate your debt in dollars,

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Speaker 2: but you back it with hard assets and a productive

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Speaker 2: revenue generating activity, which in al Salvador's case would be

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Speaker 2: bitcoin mining. But that can be transplanted to other places too,

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Speaker 2: So there's interest in Ecuador and Costa Rica in hydro bonds,

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Speaker 2: so using hydropower to mine bitcoin, and potentially you could.

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Speaker 1: Volcano bonds hydro bonds that's really just a power source,

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Speaker 1: but ultimate it's a bitcoin bond.

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Speaker 2: Well, technically you could do it with anything. It just

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Speaker 2: has to be a revenue generating activity to cover the

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Speaker 2: coupon of the bond. So right now we're talking to

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Speaker 2: some people in Africa, and you know there's tons of

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Speaker 2: rare earth minerals in Africa. So you could construct a

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Speaker 2: bitcoin bond where the revenue generating activity is mining, like

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Speaker 2: real mining to extract rare earth minerals for whatever, and

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Speaker 2: then you still have that bitcoin component, so that's.

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Speaker 1: The holding bitcoin and then of the revenue generating activity.

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Speaker 1: So then they started picking up steam in El Salvador,

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Speaker 1: but then did they get put on hold? Right?

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Speaker 2: So the president, well, we announced it together and it

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Speaker 2: was supposed to go out like in spring twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: and then they got caught up fighting the gangs and

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Speaker 2: trying to stabilize that. And I think there there was

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Speaker 2: a piece that was needed before that, which was the

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Speaker 2: digital securities loss. That was something that we were advising

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Speaker 2: them on. Sala could pass that, but that would allow

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Speaker 2: them to issue the bonds themselves under their own regulatory framework,

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Speaker 2: and that has passed I think a few months ago,

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Speaker 2: so potentially they could come out end of this year,

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Speaker 2: and I think the bitfec's team is more involved with

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Speaker 2: them now on the issuance, so I think they said

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Speaker 2: something like maybe end of this year they will do something,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not too involved in that anymore.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, but you saw enough of that and enough

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Speaker 1: potential that you decided to leave Blockstream and go move

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Speaker 1: your career onto helping nation states adopt bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's Jen three.

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Speaker 1: That's where you're at now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not just nation states. We want to

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Speaker 2: accelerate hyper bitcoonization or accelerate bitcoin adoption around the world.

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Speaker 2: So while Blockstream is one of the most important companies

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Speaker 2: in the space and they're doing excellent work, what I

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Speaker 2: want to do is get more get bitcoin in the

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Speaker 2: hands of the masses. So we're trying to relaunch our people. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the people.

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Speaker 1: So we're reading and that is that a top down

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I bottom up or top down?

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Speaker 2: It's both. So right now we're doing all the nations

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Speaker 2: state stuff we're doing is the top down stuff, engaging

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Speaker 2: with politicians and governments. But at the bottom up level,

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Speaker 2: we want to launch Aqua and start to get more

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Speaker 2: adoption and focus on Latam first. But the angle that

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Speaker 2: we're taking is that we want to be a bitcoin

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Speaker 2: and stable coin wallet because right now in latinin they

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Speaker 2: are seeking dollar denominated value, so they're using tether already

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Speaker 2: at big time. It's dominant in Latin America. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people in the US don't really understand that because

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Speaker 2: you know, you have excellent banking and everything. Well maybe

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Speaker 2: not anymore.

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Speaker 1: But at one of the meetings last night, I talked

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Speaker 1: to somebody from Central America, maybe maybe Latam and he

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Speaker 1: was saying the exact same thing. They're moving, you know,

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Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars. He's like, we're doing it over tether.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's true. But most bitcoin wallets don't have tether,

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Speaker 2: right because they're Bitcoin and lightning. Yeah, but we plan

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Speaker 2: to have bitcoin as your savings account, and then we

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Speaker 2: have a spending account section which is tether and Lightning

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Speaker 2: and liquid.

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Speaker 1: Now that would be a custodial wallet.

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Speaker 2: No, non custodia because Tether is actually on liquid. So

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Speaker 2: because we're a bitcoin and liquid wallet, you have everything

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Speaker 2: in one view. And we're hoping that we'll take away

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Speaker 2: some of the transaction volume and aum from the ship

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Speaker 2: chains and bring it onto liquid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can already use stable coins on ethereum, right,

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Speaker 1: so you could self custody that yourself and the other

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Speaker 1: chains as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but then you have to use ethereum.

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Speaker 1: Right. So this way you can put using liquid, you

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Speaker 1: can put it on the Bitcoin chain and.

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Speaker 2: It's on the liquid chain, right, but it.

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Speaker 1: Would just a side chain of Bitcoin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but the wallet supports built, so you generate one

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Speaker 2: seed and it will spawn your Bitcoin wallet and your

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Speaker 2: liquid wallet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, so that's the big project right now, and

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Speaker 1: that's that's important because people in Latin are really for anywhere.

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Speaker 1: I mean, unfortunately, I think we agree there's an evolutionary

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Speaker 1: process to bitcoin and bitcoin adoption and the evolution from

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Speaker 1: a collectible store value medium exchange. And so for shorter

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Speaker 1: term purchases, stable coins are still a pretty good solution,

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Speaker 1: especially in emerging markets. Is that kind of the theory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But it's more that I think there's a bigger

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Speaker 2: cognitive leap you have to make to get into bitcoin,

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Speaker 2: whereas for them they're already seeking dollars, right, paper dollars

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Speaker 2: or any way they can get them. Yeah, anyway they

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Speaker 2: can get them. So you're kind of just giving them

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Speaker 2: the thing that they're looking for already, and you don't

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Speaker 2: have to say you should get bitcoin. But when they

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Speaker 2: install Aqua, they'll see, oh there's bitcoin that's hop there. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it's for saving. Yeah, this is for spending.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But ironically, like people in developing in the Global South

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Speaker 2: with runaway inflation, for them taking dollars to saving, right,

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Speaker 2: But at least we can get them onto the track

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Speaker 2: of using bitcoin and bitcoin side chain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So you know, I kind of have this theory.

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Speaker 1: It's not really a theory. I think it's just human nature,

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Speaker 1: is that we don't really move until the pain's high enough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I believe in chiropractic, but I don't typically go unless

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Speaker 1: my back hurt's reel bad, right, or like someone that

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Speaker 1: needs rehab, they don't want to go to rehab unless

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Speaker 1: they hit rock bottom kind of thing, right, And so

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Speaker 1: in the US, most of us don't have pain high enough.

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Speaker 1: In Canada, during the Trucker rally, the pain was en

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Speaker 1: But in Latam the pain is high enough. Right, they're

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Speaker 1: witnessing double triple digit inflation. So like you don't need

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Speaker 1: to explain why they need to get out of their

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Speaker 1: fiat currency. Like into something else.

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Speaker 2: Well, the other thing is a lot of the central

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Speaker 2: bank regulations don't let them get out of their currency too, right,

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Speaker 2: there's limit, yeah, capital controls. But also in Argentina they

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Speaker 2: have their official rate which is like half of the

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Speaker 2: real rate. Right, so if you wanted to do it too,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna get cut right at the start.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? So the real rate,

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Speaker 1: being like a black market rate, is different than the

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Speaker 1: official rate.

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Speaker 2: It depends which way you're looking at. If I say

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Speaker 2: the real rate is the I think it's called the

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Speaker 2: blue rate, right, they call it blue.

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Speaker 1: It's not black.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not black, but it's the rate on the street,

436
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 2: the street rate. And then you have the official rate,

437
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 2: which is really bad. And that's the one at the bank.

438
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 1: Okay, to exchange their local currency to a dollar.

439
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, Argentine pays of two dollars, right, Okay.

440
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: So they give you a horrible exchange rate, but on

441
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 1: the street you get a much high rate. Yeah. Yeah,

442
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 1: And that's to prevent people from going into dollars. And

443
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 1: it's probably not that easy to go into dollars.

444
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 2: It's actually quite easy. There's a ton of money changes everywhere. Okay,

445
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 2: But then you won't be able to do it at

446
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 2: the bank, right, So you're going to you know, various

447
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 2: streets they're called quava caves, and you go in there

448
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 2: and you change your money and they take tether and

449
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 2: dollars or whatever.

450
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: Okay, so then people are using tether. They have tether wallets,

451
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: they just not have a wall that has tether and

452
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 1: bitcoin in both.

453
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 2: Maybe there's some shit coin wallets that have bitcoin, but

454
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:32,959
Speaker 2: you know it's not ideal.

455
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, So that's the plan. So then

456
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: that's like a decentralized approach from the bottom up. Now

457
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: when you talk about like from top down nation state

458
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 1: adoptions specifically going to like the governments, then you're trying

459
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,639
Speaker 1: to get them to go to like you know what

460
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: else Overeigty did making it like a legal tender. And

461
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 1: I hear people in the United States going, you know,

462
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: we should make it legal tender or whatever, And I think,

463
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: does it need to be legal tender? Because whatever we

464
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 1: want to be used as money is money. If I

465
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: want to trade you this iPhone or I want to

466
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 1: give you three hours of my labor, like we say,

467
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: what the medium of exchange is?

468
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: Right to a point, the benefit of legal tender is

469
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 2: that it removes cap gains, right, So that is really

470
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 2: what you need. Legal tender is cool, it's an endorsement

471
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 2: and you can do all.

472
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: These nations in Latam have the cap gains issue if

473
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: it's not legal tender.

474
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 2: Some of them okay, but at least in the US

475
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: and Canada. Right, technically, if you if we did the

476
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 2: trade phone for bitcoin, then it's a taxable, taxable event, right,

477
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: and that prevents bitcoin from being used as money. But

478
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: if a country has no cap gains, like Switzerland, they

479
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 2: could just adopt bitcoin and say yeah, because there's nothing

480
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 2: stopping you, right.

481
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: But in Latam or Argentina, Peru has massive inflation going

482
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: on right now, obviously Venezuela, et cetera. I mean, they

483
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: could just start using bitcoin without it being legal tender.

484
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: I mean, you can always use bitcoin. The question is

485
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 2: how above board is it? And can someone go after

486
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 2: you for using bitcoin?

487
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: So it's better curious in those countries that you're working

488
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: with down there, that's kind of your target market, the

489
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: Latam countries. So in those countries, do you need to

490
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: kind of have that top down approval of it for

491
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: the people to be able to start using it.

492
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 2: Well, not really, because you already have communities that use it, right,

493
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: But I think getting the top down is beneficial because

494
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 2: of two reasons. First, you make it above board, so

495
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: every transaction you do is completely legitimate and no one

496
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: can come after you for paying tax on whatever. Right.

497
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 2: The second is mitigation of nation state level attacks. So

498
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,719
Speaker 2: my thinking is if we get them to adopt bitcoin,

499
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: embrace bitcoin, mine bitcoin, have a bitcoin bond, they're less

500
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: likely to attack the network.

501
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: Right.

502
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 2: If they're a minor, they're probably not going to ban mining. Right,

503
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 2: if they're holding bitcoin as a treasury asset, they're not

504
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 2: going to ban non custodial wallets what was the term again,

505
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 2: self hosted wallets, right, like they are in Europe. So

506
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: I think you have to engage on some level with

507
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: the governments otherwise you end up with very poor policy decisions,

508
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:16,959
Speaker 2: like in ther Conunion. So it's sort of like defending

509
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 2: bitcoin by educating people in the government.

510
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it seems like in the G seven countries

511
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: at least, there's a massive attack. To your point, Europe's

512
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: trying to ban self hosted wallets. We're seeing a rise

513
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: of just censorship period, Right, they want a sensor movement.

514
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: We talked about being in Canada right sensoring movement. The

515
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: G twenty agreed to putting a passport system in health

516
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: passport system in as the G twenty censorship of information.

517
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: So now the G seven have all put in laws

518
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 1: against disinformation and whatever, hateful speeches, et cetera. And now

519
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: censorship on financial transactions. So lots of laws going in

520
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: in Europe to your point, self hosted Wallace potentially, and

521
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: now the US with the restrict Act. I mean, it's

522
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: just insanity. But that's like the G seven, Like we

523
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: don't really see that happening in Latam or are you

524
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: is there a fight going on down there? Or do

525
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: you think this is maybe where game theory starts playing out,

526
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: where like good, okay, G seven, G twenty, go ahead

527
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: and do that to yourselves, but it's going to grow

528
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 1: down here.

529
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 2: Well, it's definitely going to grow down there because I

530
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 2: think it's like you're saying, like, unless the pain is

531
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: high enough, people aren't going to do something. And the

532
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: pain in the Global South has been high for a

533
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: very long time, so they're just fine looking for a

534
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 2: way to get out. But until the advent of bitcoins,

535
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: is no way out right, there was no there's no

536
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 2: there's no exit, no exit, but now there is an exit.

537
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: So the fight I think, like the G seven countries

538
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 2: are basically doing it to themselves, right, whether they understand

539
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: it or not, they're just killing themselves.

540
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

541
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: But the fight I think in Latin will be against

542
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 2: the global organizations like the World Bank and the IMF,

543
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: which are trying to prevent them from getting out of

544
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: that debt spiral, right, or getting out of debt slavery.

545
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: So in Argentina, you know, the IMF a couple of

546
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: years back said we'll give you a loan, but you

547
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: shouldn't adopt Well, they said crypto, but no one cares

548
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 2: about crypto. Is about bitcoin. They said, you know, don't

549
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: adopt crypto and we'll give you a loan. And they said, okay,

550
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: But I think there's a new election coming. There's actually

551
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 2: a lot of elections coming up in Latin, and that

552
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 2: means there's a big opportunity for the landscape to just

553
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: change completely.

554
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: So they might are most of those elections going like communist, socialist.

555
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: I mean what we saw in Chile, they tried to

556
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: you know, they adopted a card carrying communist with a

557
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: new communist constitution in Brazil like that seemed to be

558
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: a pretty socialist communist you know, coup that happened there, whatever,

559
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: if you want to call it that. Are you seeing that?

560
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: I mean, is that? Do you think that's hurtful for

561
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: adopting something like bitcoin.

562
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: Well, you have to run with the tides, like the

563
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 2: political tide will change, yeah, and sometimes it's changing for

564
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 2: the worst, like in your examples. But in Argentina they

565
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 2: have a pro bitcoin candidate, Heavier Milla, and he's spoken

566
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: about bitcoin in the past and he could potentially be

567
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: a champion a bitcoin. I know there is a potentially

568
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: pro bitcoin presidential candidate in Guatemala.

569
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: We have two in the US.

570
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing.

571
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but one on both sides of the aisle.

572
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: It's pretty amazing, it is. So it's hard to say,

573
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 2: but we'll have to see. And this is why we've

574
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: been making trips like Jen three, We've been going on

575
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: these missions and trying to engage the next potential presidential candidates.

576
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so what's your prediction there? Which which countries do

577
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: you think seem to be the most favorable and maybe

578
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: might be not a prediction as to which one is

579
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: the next one, but which ones, which one seemed to

580
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: be the most open, most favorable, Which ones you think

581
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: will probably move into some sort of maybe not even

582
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: full adoption, but acceptance.

583
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: It's hard to say. I can't predict the outcome of

584
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: the elections, but there are certain countries that could potentially

585
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,239
Speaker 2: adopt bitcoin. So I guess the question is what does

586
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: adopt bitcoin mean? If it means bitcoin legal tender, and

587
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: then I have no idea because it's really hard. Al

588
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: Salvador is a unique oddity I think, in which they

589
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: had a presisd Boo Kelly has a super majority of

590
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: the Congress, right, so they can pass the laws very easily,

591
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: whereas in most other countries it's very hard to get

592
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: anything passed. So if you ask me which country is

593
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: going to put out a bitcoin law, I have no idea.

594
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: But I think there are countries that could adopt bitcoin.

595
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: And when I say adopt bitcoin, it's more broad. It

596
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: could be mining, it could be with a bond or

597
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: just having bitcoined, a treasury asset, or a law. It

598
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: could be any of those things. So Guatemala, I think

599
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: is interesting because they have a law already called divisis,

600
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: which is they allow you to use any foreign currency

601
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: and with bitcoin as legal tender, and al Salvador it

602
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: is a foreign currency. So that standing of bitcoin from

603
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: Alsalva or adopting it is actually very important because that

604
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: lets us do more interesting things with it because it

605
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: has formal recognition. So Guatemala, they don't actually need a law.

606
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: Someone just has to say, basically interpreting the current law,

607
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 2: that bitcoin can be used for payments and everything, and

608
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: then you're done. And we're working with some people in

609
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 2: Mexico to see if the Mexican law would afford that

610
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: same option. And Panama is also interesting too because they

611
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 2: don't have a central bank and it was founded on

612
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: the premise that you can use whatever money you choose to.

613
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: So Guatemala and Panama could potentially be the next ones.

614
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: But they would be easy because they don't need to

615
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: do anything. Someone just has to say, yes, you can

616
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: use bitcoin, Yes you can use bitcoin, and you're done.

617
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: So seeing as you've left blockstream, you've gone over here.

618
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: This is your thing now now a nation state option

619
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: top down, bottom up, and hitting both those approaches actively

620
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: working with the governments, et cetera, trying to I don't

621
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: want to say influence, educate education, educate potential people, right,

622
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: the education you don't need to influence if you can

623
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: educate them properly, I guess right. So then what is

624
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: what's your goal? I mean, what's the outlook here?

625
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: I mean the goal is to ensure an orderly transition

626
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: into a bitcoin standard. So if you look at the

627
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: world today, it's still mostly on FIAT, but you and

628
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: I both believe we're probably moving to a bitcoin standard ultimately, right,

629
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: The question is when? On what timeframe?

630
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: I think it's certin We would certainly agree that all

631
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: fiats are dying and they're on their last legs and

632
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: there has to be a replacement, and there's not another

633
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: Fiat replacement, so what is it? So then it's almost

634
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: like we need a decentralized ledger that nobody can control.

635
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: It's almost like that.

636
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: So if we are going there, then it's better to

637
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: It depends on your time horizons too, so I'm thinking

638
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 2: five to ten years, and in five to ten years

639
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 2: that's pretty quick actually, and it means that countries need

640
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: to start adopting now and having some sort of bitcoin

641
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: strategy in place, because when it comes time when the

642
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: shit hit the fan. You don't want people to try

643
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: to figure out how do I get my feet into bitcoin?

644
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: That's just mass chaos. And you've seen this historically through

645
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: demonetization events India and twenty sixteen had one. They pulled

646
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: some notes out of circulation. People actually died because they

647
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: couldn't pay for medical procedures, or they died from exposure

648
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: from lining up trying to convert their old bill to

649
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: the new bill. But just take that and imagine all

650
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: fiat moneys are now failing rapidly and people need to

651
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: get into bitcoin. You need to have all those rails

652
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: in place, all that infrastructure in place, and the government

653
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: needs to know what to do because they control a

654
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: lot of the money still. So our thinking is if

655
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: we can get them onto some sort of bitcoin adoption strategy,

656
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: now we can mitigate that chaos down the road, yeah,

657
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: and have an orderly transition and people can move into bitcoin.

658
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: So parallel tracks. So like Al Salvador, they're still on

659
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: the dollar, but they have bitcoin. You could be Argentina

660
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: and be dollarized and with bitcoin, or you could be

661
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: Mexico and have the Mexican peso and bitcoin. Sure, and

662
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: this in my view, is the best outcome we can

663
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: get for the next few years to have parallel tracks

664
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: in multiple places.

665
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And a lot of that could be driven

666
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: bottom up, I mean, if there's demand for it. So

667
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: in Mexico they have the peso, but they also accept

668
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: dollars in a lot of places, right, not everywhere, and

669
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: they get the real places they won't. But I also

670
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: really like the bitcoin bond situation because now any country

671
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: that has excess energy could instantly start making revenue. And

672
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of interesting because if you look

673
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 1: back through history, it was like the nations that had

674
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: natural resources, you know, typically oil that flourish because they

675
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: had that cheap amount of energy. And now you have

676
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: a nation like Al Salvador who has really no natural

677
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: resources bananas or whatever, right, but they have this volcano.

678
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: Was a volcano good for Well, now they could create

679
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: revenue off of that. And then you look at like

680
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: the landscape of like the South Pacific and all the

681
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 1: atolls that have volcanoes on them, and like the ability

682
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: for them to start generating revenue off of that. So

683
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: it seems like the greed aspect is always a good angle,

684
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: right If governments can create excess revenue and potentially raise

685
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: extra revenue off of bonds without having to go through

686
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: the IMF or whatever like.

687
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: Well, I think the biggest benefit of the bonds is

688
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: that they can raise the capital to tap into those resources.

689
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: So Al Salvador has to expand their geothermal generation capacity still, right,

690
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: they only have a few plants right now, but they

691
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: have a lot of geothermal potential, right, But the bond

692
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: would let them build new plants, and then once the

693
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 2: plants are built, they're good for fifty eighty years. And

694
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: that's all bitcoin. And I think that transformation is not

695
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: yet fully appreciated by most people around the world. They

696
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 2: don't yet understand that bitcoin is now money, and money

697
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 2: is now bitcoin. Bitcoin is information and energy. So if

698
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: you have energy, you have money. Right. So the Middle

699
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: East has lots of oil and they've figured it out

700
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 2: pretty easily. Well, oil is money. We can build cities

701
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 2: in the desert. And in the case of the UAE,

702
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 2: they actually pay you to be AMORTI. You don't pay taxes,

703
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: you get paid. And this can actually happen in many

704
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 2: places around the world. It could happen in Al Salvador

705
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: and Indonesia in the Philippines. So Indonesia and the Philippines

706
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: have a massive amount of geothermal energy. So if they

707
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: can just tap into that, they could be the next

708
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: Dubai or whatever. Right, Yeah, and I think this potential

709
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: is what we're trying to educate them on align their incentives.

710
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: So if you think about bitcoin from a very high level,

711
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 2: this is a piece of software that brilliantly aligns incentives

712
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 2: across the board between end users, miners, and everyone else. Right,

713
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: And we can kind of take that and amplify that

714
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 2: for nation states too and show them, well, you can

715
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,919
Speaker 2: mine bitcoin and you don't need to tax anybody, because

716
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 2: every country right now is looking for ways to generate

717
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: tax revenue. Sure, so why not just tap into what

718
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: you have? And I think with the Global seuth they're

719
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,240
Speaker 2: more amenable to this concept. Right, like the G seven,

720
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of hope. Canada has massive

721
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: amounts of hydropower. Right Technically, in Canada you could fit

722
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 2: three entire bitcoin networks. Wow, and just mine in Canada.

723
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: There's enough energy for that.

724
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: But Canada has no gold either, So yeah, for them,

725
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: we have zero goal.

726
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: So until there's a seismic shift in the government, then

727
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 2: I don't have much hope, but in the end, necessity drives.

728
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: A lot of change back where the pain's high enough.

729
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll see what happens. Yeah, hopeful.

730
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 1: No, I love it, you know. You back to Saudi Arabia.

731
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 1: I mean the benefits they have is they can get

732
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: the oil on the ground and they can ship the oil.

733
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: But you can't ship energy from a geothermal unit, like

734
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: like you can't really transmit that very far. There's no

735
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 1: way to package it and ship it. And so mining

736
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: allows them to monetize that.

737
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the beautiful thing is I tell them, like,

738
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 2: even if you don't believe in bitcoin and you don't

739
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 2: want it, just mine it and sell to someone else, right,

740
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 2: someone else will buy it, will even if.

741
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: You think it's fools gold. Yeah, and people want to

742
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: buy it, sell this.

743
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: There's this incredibly liquid market and there are buyers. Yeah,

744
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: so it's almost negligent.

745
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: And have they been pretty receptive to that.

746
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: Well, that's usually the light bulb moment. Yeah, I tell them, first,

747
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 2: your energy could fund everything through bitcoin, and then you

748
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 2: don't have to keep bitcoin. You can just sell it

749
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: all and.

750
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,479
Speaker 1: You don't even have to mention bitcoin. It's like Hey,

751
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: would you like to make an extra billion dollars a

752
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: year or whatever that's way more or whatever that number

753
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: is right, And then well, how do I make an

754
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: extra billion dollars by running data centers? What the data

755
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: centers do doesn't really matter, and you just kind of

756
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: like work your way in. If you drop bitcoin too soon,

757
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, never mind, never mind, are kind of

758
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: a thing like that. So is your theory? Then you

759
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: said five ten years, which it's always timeframe. Five ten

760
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: years is actually seems pretty short. Pretty short time frame

761
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: it is. But you think like a game theory will

762
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: play out here where potentially the G seven, maybe even

763
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 1: more than that, really get aggressive and try to clamp

764
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: down because they're trying to protect the status quote they

765
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: want their system to maintain. But the people who aren't

766
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: in the system, they don't care. They have nothing to lose, right,

767
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: and so those ones will adopt, And if that happens out,

768
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: then those countries will have the upper hand, the advantage.

769
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: How you see it kind of playing out.

770
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: I think they'll try to clamp down, but they're going

771
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 2: to face civil unrest at home just because their policies

772
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: make no sense, right, Like, if you look at Germany,

773
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 2: they shut down all their nuclear and then they're burning coal, right,

774
00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: and they're proud of that for some reason.

775
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: But they're they're they're chopping down forests and burning wood

776
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: and they're proud of that. Yeah.

777
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: I think they're importing trees from the US to burn too,

778
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: So I don't see how sustainable that is.

779
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:11,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

780
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 2: So they might try to clamp down or crack down,

781
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 2: but they're just going to self immolate themselves, self destruct. Yeah,

782
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 2: so I don't think they can successfully clamp down. And

783
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: as Bitcoin's dominance grows, those globalist organizations lose more and

784
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 2: more power too. So all you need to do is

785
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 2: have a few bitcoin bonds in the wild, right, And

786
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: that just makes and I am a I am f

787
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 2: loan look useless.

788
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's the game theory. So as long as

789
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: one or two people are doing it, then other people

790
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: are going to see that. I did see Liechtenstein said

791
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: they were going to start accepting bitcoin for government payments,

792
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: and so again that's just like another little crack in

793
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: the game theory, so to speak, you know, the more adoption.

794
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: Okay, well we're engaged with Litenstein, Oh you are, Yeah, Okay,

795
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 2: we're engaged with a lot of countr Yeah, we can't

796
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 2: talk about a lot of stuff yet, but yeah, yeah,

797
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 2: if you knew everything I knew, you'd be super bolish

798
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 2: on bitcoin.

799
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: I'm already bullish on bitcoin, but maybe so that's good.

800
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: So okay, so you can't disclose it. But if we knew,

801
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: if we knew what you knew, if we knew what

802
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 1: was going on in the conversations inside some of these governments,

803
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: it's pretty favorable, I would say.

804
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 2: So it's just pragmatism at the end of the day.

805
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I just go back to just human greed,

806
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: like which government doesn't want more money? Which government doesn't

807
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 1: want to turn more of the resources into money.

808
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 2: And they all do except for some of the G sevens.

809
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: Except for some of the G sevens, And that's the

810
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: pain is not high enough. They can still just print

811
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: for now, right, But the nations that aren't able to

812
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: do that, like George Carlin, and there's a big old club,

813
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: and you're not in it. So all those countries, they

814
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: are not in it, and their choices either one go

815
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: to the IMF and give up massive amounts of sovereignty,

816
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: potentially change the entire makeup of their country. In Ukraine,

817
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: I saw this article this week. It was the third

818
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: largest debtor to the IMF, and the IMF is making

819
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: them change the entire property ownership of their government. Their country.

820
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: Ukraine is the bread basket of Europe, right, some of

821
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: the most fertile land, and they're taking all the land

822
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: from the farmers and basically give them to the oligarchs. Yeah,

823
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: and so like, if you're a country that doesn't want

824
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: to give that up, what's your other option?

825
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: It's only bitcoin.

826
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: It's only bitcoin. Yeah, So okay, well I think we

827
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: can end it with that. Man, if we knew what

828
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: you knew, we'd be even more bullish on bitcoin. Anything

829
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: else that you want to talk about or draw attention to.

830
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: What can people do to get involved in this anything?

831
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 2: So last year when I was on stage, I said,

832
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: you know, everyone should try to do something. Yeah, And

833
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: I think that maybe stirred up some people, But a

834
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 2: lot of people have started reaching out and engaging with us.

835
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: So we have, you know, groups in multiple countries working

836
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 2: with US, facilitating meetings and doing.

837
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 1: That with AQUA or with just nation state nation state.

838
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think the call, I would say is

839
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 2: keep doing that, Like you can reach out. You don't

840
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: need to talk to me or Jenna three, but you

841
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 2: should try to do something and try to fix the

842
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 2: system that you're in because it's only.

843
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: An awareness, change the conversation.

844
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's only through our work that we can affect change.

845
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: If we just sit back and wait, nothing will happen.

846
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. And I know we

847
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: have a big international audience, So talk about it, share

848
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: the information, continue to bring adoption or just education around it,

849
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: and we can really have a bottom up approach. And

850
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: I think kind of like we's on Al Salvador. You

851
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 1: get that bottom up approach and then the top goes,

852
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: what the heck is going on? Oh it's pretty good,

853
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: let's go do that. So cool, all right, Samson, Well,

854
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: thank you appreciate it.

855
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 2: Thanks Mark, It's been fun.

856
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah,