1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: day we bring you inside and analysis into the most 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. The Supreme Court 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 1: will consider bolstering constitutional gun rights for the first time 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: in almost a decade. The Justices have agreed to hear 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: a challenge to New York City rules that limit residents 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: from transporting their license handguns outside their homes. Under the 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: New York law, people with a licensed handgun at home 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: may take it to one of seven shooting ranges in 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: the city, but almost nowhere else. Weapons must be locked 13 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: and unloaded during travel, and ammunition must be put in 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: a separate container. Joining us now to take a look 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: at what the Supreme Court may do is the foremost 16 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: expert on the Second Amendment in the country, Adam Winkler. 17 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: He's a professor at u c l A Law school 18 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: and author of several books on the Second Amendment, including Gunfight, 19 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: The Battle over the Right to Bear Arms in America. 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: Welcome Adam, Thanks so much for having me. So how 21 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: do New York City's gun transportation restrictions compare to other 22 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: cities and states, Well, New York's laws are very unusual. 23 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: In fact, no other city has a restriction quite as 24 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: detailed and as restrictive as New York's transportation laws. So 25 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: why would a Supreme Court choose to take this case then, 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: when it has been rejecting gun cases for quite some time. Well, 27 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: the most obvious thing that's changed on the Court is 28 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: the personnel. Justice Kennedy has retired, Justice Kavanaugh has replaced him. Um. 29 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: Justice Kavanaugh has written as a lower court judge on 30 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: the Second Amendment and shown that he has a very 31 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: strong view of gun rights. Justice Kennedy may have not 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: been so certain about the extent of gun rights, and 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: while he was on the court, the Court seemed to 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: reject all the gun cases that came before them, almost 35 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: all at least, And once Kavanaughs there, all of a sudden, 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: we get a Second Amendment case. So that would seem 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: to be the big change. As we know, the Supreme 38 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: Court often takes cases like this in order to reverse them, 39 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: or that's the outcome. Is the Chief Justice the swing 40 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: vote on this, or is this a slam dunk for 41 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: the conservatives on the Court. I think this case is 42 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: a likely loser for New York. It is a very 43 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: unusual law, the law is very restrictive, uh, and the 44 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: Court could strike this law down without having broad implications 45 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 1: on gun policy. At the same time, I think there's 46 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: a good chance that this case could be a very 47 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: significant one that articulates broad new principles for how to 48 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: understand the Second Amendment that could affect a lot of 49 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: gun cases going forward. Is this really a debate about 50 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: the right to have a gun in public? Or is 51 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 1: it more than that? Is it more about the Second 52 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: Amendment and expanding the Second Amendment? Well, June, one of 53 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: the biggest unanswered questions, as you know, in the Second 54 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: Amendment law is whether you have a right to have 55 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: a gun in public. The Supreme Court has said you 56 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: have a right to have a gun in your home 57 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: for personal protection, but hasn't made clear what the right 58 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: is to have it in public. And while most people 59 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: expected the Supreme Court to eventually weigh in on that 60 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: issue in the context of, say, permitting for concealed carry 61 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: of firearms, this case presents the same kind of question 62 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: um in a very unusual way. Just about the restriction 63 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: on the transportation of the firearm even if you don't 64 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: have a concealed carry permit. So if the Supreme Court 65 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 1: knocks down the New York law, well, that have implications 66 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,839 Speaker 1: on other laws across the country. Or is the New 67 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: York law so different that it won't Well, there's two possibilities. 68 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: Because the New York law is so different, it is 69 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: possible that you could imagine a Supreme Court decision that 70 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: only strikes down that law and doesn't articulate broad principles 71 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: about the Second Amendment for courts to apply in later cases. 72 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: Given how many justices have been upset that the Court 73 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: has articulated those broader principles and made that clear in 74 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: their opinions, such as denials descents from the denials of 75 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: sert in some of those earlier Second Amendment cases we mentioned, 76 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: I think it's unlikely that the Court would rule in 77 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: such a narrow way. And then if the Court does 78 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: articulate broader principles, it could have a big effect, either 79 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: by making it harder to justify restrictions on concealed carry 80 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: or possibly even raising the standard of review a court 81 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: supply in Second Amendment cases, which of course would have 82 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: an impact upon a broad array of different kinds of 83 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: gun restrictions. According to a study from Duke Law, less 84 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: than ten percent of challenges to state and local weapons 85 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: regulations prevailed in state and federal courts since the Heller decision. 86 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: And I believe that Justice Clarence Thomas pointed to this 87 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: in one of his descents. Is this what the Court 88 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: may be aiming at, trying to change the way that 89 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: the state and federal courts are reviewing regulations? I think so. 90 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: I think that several of the justices have expressed their 91 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: view that the lower courts haven't been giving the Second 92 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: Amendment UH sufficient strength and haven't been scrutinizing gun restrictions 93 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: as vigorously as they should UM, and so I think 94 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: that is definitely part of the playing field. I think 95 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: looking only at the success rate of Second Amendment challenges, however, 96 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: can be a bit deceiving. UM. For instance, one of 97 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: the biggest categories of challenges, one of the most frequent 98 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: challenges the courts have ruled on are restrictions on felons 99 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: possessing firearms. That's the kind of gun law that everyone 100 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: believes as constitutional. Whether you're in the n r A 101 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: or not, so it's not surprising that those cases would 102 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: turn out to be victories for gun control. Go over 103 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: a little bit of the Heller decision and what's happened 104 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: at the Court since the Heller decision. Well, Haller was 105 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight and the Court said that 106 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: the Second Amendment gate gave you a right to have 107 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: a firearm a handgun in your home for personal protection. 108 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: That case only applied to federal law. It was out 109 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: of Washington d c UH. And the Court ruled in 110 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: the two thousand intent McDonald versus City of Chicago case 111 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: that the Second Amendment was incorporated against the state and 112 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: similarly said that state and local governments can't prevent you 113 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: from having a handgun in your home for personal protection. UM. 114 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: Since then, the Court has pretty much stayed on the sidelines. 115 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: There was one case called the Kaitano case, where the 116 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: Court kind of punted on some Second Amendment issues, UM. 117 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: But other other than that, the Court has stayed out 118 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: of the Second Amendment fray. Even though there's been a 119 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: lot of activity at the lower courts UM, there haven't 120 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: been that many splits in the circuits however, so the 121 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: Court maybe has been able to justify staying on the 122 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: sidelines until such splits developed, which is the kind of 123 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 1: thing the Court often looks for in the development of 124 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: constitutional doctrine. A lot of Democrats who have come into 125 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: office have been saying that they want to promote more 126 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: gun legislation. What are the chances of gun legislation getting 127 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 1: through this Congress. Well, I think we are going to 128 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: see a number of symbolic gun laws like universal background 129 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: Checks UH passed in the House. And I say they're 130 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: symbolic because I think the members of the House know 131 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: that the Senate is not going to pass those same bills. 132 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: And if the Senate were to pass those bills, President Trump, 133 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: who's a very strong ally of the n r A, 134 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: seems very unlikely to sign them. So it doesn't look 135 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: like we're going to get any new significant federal gun 136 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: restrictions in the next um UH in the next couple 137 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: of years. But we will continue to see activity at 138 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: the state level where it's been for the last four 139 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: or five years, with a lot of legislation being adopted 140 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: in states like California, in Massachusetts and New York. And 141 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: a large portion of the American population live in states 142 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: where the gun control issue is pushing lawmakers to think 143 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: of new restrictions in a way that the federal level 144 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: just can't do right now. So might this decision from 145 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court when it comes have a chilling effect 146 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: on states and state legislatures. It really depends June what 147 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court says, as if they come up with 148 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: a very narrow ruling that only says New York's law, 149 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: which is unusually restrictive, doesn't work and that they have 150 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: to craft a new law, then perhaps not. Perhaps it 151 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: won't discourage or prevent future gun control innovations. But if 152 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: the Court articulates broad principles, it could mean that, for instance, 153 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: laws in place in Los Angeles and San Francisco and 154 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: New York City UM that very heavily restrict the ability 155 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: of people to carry guns in public UM would be overturned. 156 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: And uh, instead of those cities like Los Angeles, which 157 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: has less than five hundred people who are civilians entitled 158 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 1: to carry guns on the streets concealed UM, we might 159 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: have three hundred thousand based on population estimates. So uh, 160 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: it could have a big effect on gun policy going forward. 161 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Adam for your insight. That's Adam Winkler. 162 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: He is professor at u c l A Law School. 163 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: And a note that Michael Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg Radio's 164 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: parent company, Bloomberg ALP, is a donor to groups that 165 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: support gun control, including every Town for Guns Safety. Thanks 166 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe 167 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and 168 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This 169 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg