1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 2: name is Robert. 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 1: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: Part two in our series on the horned lizards of 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: North America, also known sometimes as horned toads or horny 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: toads if you prefer, though they are in fact lizards 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: and not toads. The horned blizzard, of course, is a 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: genus scientific name Phrenosoma, meaning toad body, which contains about 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: twenty one species which have different geographical ranges, but they're 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: all found in western North America, from the southern tip 12 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: of Mexico up through parts of western Canada. Now again, 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: this is part two of the series. In Part one, 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: we focused mainly on the horned lizard's relationship with various 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: predators and their fascinating anti predator defense strategies which include camouflage, spikes, 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: and armored scales which can make them difficult and in 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: some cases quite dangerous to eat. We talked about some 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: eating related mishaps from various predators, and then finally, their 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: weaponized blood jets, the adaptation that allows them to shoot 20 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: streams of apparently foul tasting blood out of their eyes 21 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: when threatened by a dog. Rob in your words last time, 22 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: a way of deterring predation with the most aggressive and 23 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: unpleasant free sample in the world. That's right to refer 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: back to something that came up last time, that we're 25 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: still interested in this question of why the blood apparently 26 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: tastes so foul to dogs, and I read in some 27 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: cases maybe also cats, but not noticeably so to humans, 28 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: and certainly not to predators such as birds. 29 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: Now I want to throw in right here at the top. 30 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: We described the horned lizards in detail in the last episode, 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: and I hope that everyone has had a chance to 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: check out some footage or images on their own. At 33 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: this point in our research, I've looked at a lot 34 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: of images, a lot of footage, and I do have 35 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 2: to give them props for just being tremendous splooters. You 36 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: know they certainly the squirrels can splute like like none other. 37 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: You know, cats are great spluters, But man, I have 38 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: to say the horned lizard isn't natural as well. 39 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: Wait, I'm not understanding the word splute, then I thought 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: you were. You were meaning like squirting, like squirting the 41 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: blood out of the eye. 42 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 2: That's all what means they're tremendous squirters as well. But spluting. 43 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: Spluting is when if you ever it's a hot day 44 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: and you look out and you see a squirrel like 45 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: laying on its belly like spluted out, you may see 46 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: it can't do much the same. Various other organisms will splute. 47 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: This is an unofficial terminology for what they're doing, but 48 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,119 Speaker 2: I feel like that the horned lizard has this down 49 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: as well. 50 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: Splute seems like a variation on display when the whole 51 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: body like flat against the ground, all limbs outstretched. 52 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: Exactly, Yes, but the kind of PLoP to it as well. 53 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: You know, like there's a certain you got the organism 54 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: really needs to have a certain amount of like semi 55 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: liquid solidness to it to really deliver it. You got 56 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: to have that toad body, or you got to have 57 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: that slightly soft mammalian body to pull it off. 58 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: Oh, that's right. And of course the toad body, as 59 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: we talked about last time, is part of the horned 60 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: lizard's defensive camouflage strategy, like the spluting is indeed part 61 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: of what keeps them safe from detection by predators. They 62 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: try to lay flat against the ground so as not 63 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: to cast a shadow and to make it harder for 64 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: a predator, say a bird flying overhead, to see their outline. Also, 65 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: since we're just talking about reviewing the tape on horned 66 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: lizards since the last time we talked, I was watching 67 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: just more blood squirting footage since we recorded the previous episode. 68 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: And I don't know if I emphasized enough how much 69 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: it looks so alarming. If you haven't seen this, look 70 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: it up. The blood that the jets out of the 71 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: eyes somehow looks darker and thicker than I expected. And 72 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: it's also just weird how much blood is coming out 73 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: compared to the size of the animal, which is quite small. 74 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: It doesn't look like something that should be happening. 75 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is quite alarming. It's redder and bloodier than 76 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: I think I was anticipating. It feels like a cuts 77 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: scene from Event Horizon. 78 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, to get into the meat of today's episode, 79 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to address just a few more lingering biological 80 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: facts about horned lizards, biological and ecological facts that we 81 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: didn't quite have time to get into last time. And 82 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: the first thing I wanted to talk about is the 83 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,799 Speaker 1: horned lizard's relationship to water. Of course, horned lizards generally 84 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: live in dry places, deserts and semi arid ecoregions, where 85 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: the sun cooks you, the rain is scarce, water is 86 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: hard to come by, and horned toads, like all animals, 87 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: of course, need water to live, so much of their 88 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: biology has gone still suit mode. They are very efficient 89 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: at sourcing and preserving water. There is a great passage 90 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: about the horned lizard's relationship to water in a book 91 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: that I referred to in the last episode. That book 92 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: is Introduction to Horned Lizards of North America by Wade C. Sherbrook. 93 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: This was published by the University of California Press in 94 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: two thousand and three. The author, Wade Sherbrooke, was director 95 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: of the Southwestern Research Station of the American Museum of 96 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: Natural History. So, of course, losing water is just part 97 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: of having a body. It is impossible to avoid losing 98 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: some water content through ambient interface with the air. We 99 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: lose some water vapor from our lungs when we breathe. 100 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: We lose some water through evaporation from our skin, and 101 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: the same is true for horned lizards. To reduce water 102 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: law to evaporation. Horned lizards have some behavioral adaptations. For example, 103 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: sometimes they burrow underground or partially bury parts of their 104 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: bodies in the soil. This can reduce water loss from evaporation. 105 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: But they also have some clever ways to source water 106 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: from their environment. They will, of course, just drink free 107 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: standing water when they can get access to it. If 108 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: there are puddles after a rainstorm or something like that, 109 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: they will drink dew that collects on plants in the morning. 110 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: But much of the water that they get from external 111 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: sources comes from food like juicy juicy harvest or ants. 112 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: But here's where Sherbrook gets into something I found really fascinating. 113 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: One of these strate strategies they have for sourcing water 114 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: is that some species of horned lizards use their own 115 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: backs as what Sherbrook calls a rain harvesting surface. So 116 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: he singles out three species as examples, the Texas horned lizard, 117 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: the round tail horned lizard, and the desert horned lizard. 118 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: And when these animals sense that rain is about to fall, 119 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: they do the opposite of what humans usually do. You know, 120 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: we go inside. They go outside, They run out of 121 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: cover into the open and stand with their backs sort 122 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: of cupped like they raise up there, they raise up 123 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: on their legs, they flatten out their backs, and they 124 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: lower their heads. Now what does this do. It turns 125 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: the lizards back into a kind of combination rain barrel 126 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: and whatever you call that. You know, the beer drinking 127 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: helmet where you got the beers on the sides and 128 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: it's got a straw running to the mouth. So you 129 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: combine that with the rain barrel concept. Their back collects 130 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: water over the widest possible surface area, which is the 131 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: lizard's flattened out dorsal scales, and then it funnels the 132 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: water to the edge of its mouth for drinking. So 133 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: like my body is a catch basin and my mouth 134 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: is the receptacle. 135 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: I'm glad we're getting into this because as I was 136 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: looking into like the culture of the horned lizard, I 137 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: was hoping to find an example of cowboy poetry about them. 138 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: But my search came up largely empty. But I did 139 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: find an interesting blog post by Charlie Buck of the 140 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: University of Arizona Poetry Center about an elementary school exercise 141 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: where they brought in a herpetologist to talk about horned lizards, 142 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: and then a poet led the class in filling out 143 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: horned lizard worksheets with descriptive text to create concrete poems 144 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: or visual poetry. So it's like an outline of a 145 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 2: horned lizard and then you fill in with text. And 146 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 2: I included one example of this in our outline here. 147 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: Joe and folks can look up the blog posts and 148 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: see an example of this as well. And for instance, 149 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: written by one of the students in the head is 150 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 2: a horned lizard eats ants. I babysat horned lizards. I 151 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: can't read the rest of it. I spit my blood 152 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: out of my eye at snack, I drink water from 153 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 2: the sky. And then like later on one of the legs, 154 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: it says I eat ant every day. And then there's 155 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 2: also a part of the anatomy that says I drink 156 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: water from my back. So I read that before I 157 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: actually got to that point in reading about their biology. 158 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: So I was like, I wonder if that's true. Gonna 159 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: have to FA fact check this child. 160 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: Yes, this child's poetry passes fact check. The horned lizards, 161 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: at least some species do drink water from their backs 162 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: and It's interesting the way Sherbrook describes it. It's not 163 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: just like you know, water randomly running off the back 164 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: and some of it sort of getting into the mouth. 165 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: It seems like it has a fairly sophisticated system of 166 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: like this sort of this matrix of layers underneath and 167 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: between the scales absorbing water and then routing it by 168 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: capillary action down to the edges of the mouth where 169 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: the where the lizard then sort of sits there opening 170 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: and closing its jaws slowly to drink the water as 171 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: it trickles in from the corners of the mouth. And 172 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: so it's got a fairly sophisticated topography on the back 173 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: there to get the water to the mouth. 174 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: It's a great system. You can't follow them. 175 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: Another interesting way that horned lizards can serve water they 176 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: do not urinate. Now, how is that possible. They're animals, 177 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: Surely their bodies produce and collect waste products like excess 178 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: salts and the nitrogen bearing compounds that are the byproduct 179 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: of animal metabolism, like uric acid common in reptiles. Well, 180 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: they do still have to purge these waste products, but 181 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: they purge them not as liquid urine but as a 182 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: semi solid substance rather than dissolved in water. So a 183 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: Schrberch writes, quote, water carrying uric acid from the kidney 184 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: is reabsorbed in the kloaca. From here, the uric acid, 185 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: mixed with some insoluble crystals of urate salts is voided 186 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: as a white mass attached to the end of the 187 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: fecal pellet. And I thought this was interesting because in 188 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: just a minute, I want to mention, and there was 189 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: a video I was watching, like a short documentary about 190 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: some conservation efforts with horned lizards, and it was showing 191 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: some of their feces that the researchers were finding in 192 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: the wild. And yeah, there fecal pellets did have these 193 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: interesting little white caps on them. So apparently that is 194 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: what the lizard releases instead of liquid urine solid P 195 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: and some solidness crystals of solid P. Also, as we 196 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: have discussed with some other reptiles in the past, horned 197 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: lizards can sometimes remove excess salts from the body, not 198 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: by urinating, but by sneezing. So salts accumulate in glands 199 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: around the nostrils where they are secreted. As this hyper 200 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: concentrated salty brine in the nose, which you can then 201 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: you just hank it right out, and Sherbrook says that 202 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: you can find horned lizard individuals with noses covered in 203 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: this salty white trust from the process. So the moral 204 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: of the story is when you don't pee, you poop, 205 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: and you sneeze. Different other anti predator considerations that we 206 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: didn't have time to talk about in the last episode. 207 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: We were talking about the advantages of the horned lizard's 208 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: armor for self defense, you know, the tough scales, but 209 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: especially the sharp bony spines around the crown of the 210 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: horned lizard's head. That these pieces of armor increase the 211 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: risk a predator has to take in trying to eat 212 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: one of these lizards. The predator has to make a 213 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: judgment call is it too big for me to survive 214 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: swallowing this? Will the head spikes split open my throat 215 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: or puncture my organs? That can actually happen. But in 216 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: the context of looking at another predator prey relationship that 217 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: we didn't talk about last time, Sherbroke had some interesting 218 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: thoughts on the evolution of these head spikes. So Sherbrooke 219 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: is talking about the Southern grasshopper mouse or ani Comis torridus, 220 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: and this animal will prey on some smaller horned lizard 221 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: species by biting the skull right over the eye socket. 222 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: So this is before you get to the crown of spikes. 223 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: This is the skull above the eyes. And when the 224 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: grasshopper mouse attacks other prey animals, most other vertebrate prey, 225 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: it bites in a different place. It bites at the 226 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: back of the neck near the base of the head, 227 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: attempting to damage and sever the spinal cord, and this 228 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: is apparently a common attack area for predators to target. 229 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: I was actually kind of thinking, I know, I've read 230 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: about big cats often targeting the back of the neck 231 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: and the base of the skull in those rare cases 232 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: where they happen to attack humans, and I was trying 233 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: to remember where I came across that fact, and finally 234 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: I realized it was from Mary Roach's book fuzz When 235 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: Nature Breaks the Law, which we interviewed her about on 236 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: the show. That was one of my favorite interviews we've done, 237 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: and it's from the part of the book where she's 238 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: talking about taking the class learning to identify different common 239 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: wound patterns from different types of animal attacks, and so 240 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: for example, she talks about how when a grizzly bear 241 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: attacks a human sometimes a lot of the injuries are 242 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: sort of face on. They're like to the face in 243 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: the front of the head, almost as if the bear 244 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: is fighting a human the way it fights a rival bear, 245 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: where they're both kind of like biting at each other's faces. 246 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: Whereas cougars are used to killing their prey with a 247 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: powerful bite to the back of the neck, which they 248 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: in these rare cases where a cougar attacks a human, 249 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: they will sometimes target the same sort of place on 250 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: the body, like the back of the neck, base of 251 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: the back of the head. 252 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: I believe in Jurassic Park this is also how the 253 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 2: velociraptors are depicted as preying on humans, biting the back 254 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: of the neck. 255 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: But anyway, coming back to the relationship between the southern 256 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: grasshopper mouse and the horned lizard, so these mice will 257 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: try to prey on the lizards, especially the smaller ones, 258 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: but they don't bite where they bite most prey because 259 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: in the lizard's case, this is right where the head 260 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: horns grow, so the mouse doesn't even bother trying to 261 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: attack this well, defended area. Instead, it has got to 262 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: kind of like awkwardly chew with the head over the eyes, 263 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: and Sherbrook speculates that these horns could have evolved from 264 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: what was originally a more modest kind of bony defensive 265 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: ridge at the base of the skull designed to protect 266 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: against this kind of attack to the back of the neck. 267 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: And studies have shown that the spines do protect against 268 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: predator attacks. And you can measure this because the size 269 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: of the spines around the head actually matters. Like research 270 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: has shown that lizards killed by birds tend to have 271 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: order spines around the head than lizards of the same 272 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: species in that area, so the ones that are picked 273 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: off the most and to have the shortest headspikes. Now, 274 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: there's one more thing we brought up in the last 275 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: episode that I did want to make sure we came 276 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: back to today because I wanted to clarify something about it. 277 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: This was when we were talking about the relationship between 278 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: horned lizards and the red imported fire ant or Solenopsis 279 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: in Victa. It came up that non native fire ants 280 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: in North America are thought to be a reason for 281 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: some horned lizard population declines, and this does appear to 282 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: be true. There are a number of horned lizards whose 283 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: ranges have been shrinking in recent decades. There are places 284 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: where you used to find them, you don't find them anymore. 285 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: Many of their populations are in decline, and in the 286 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: case the case with a lot of these species does 287 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: seem to be that the fire ant is playing a 288 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: role there, especially because the lizards have such an important 289 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: relationship with the native harvester ants, which are sometimes sort 290 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: of driven out by the fire ants. So while it's 291 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: true that the fire ants appear to be playing a 292 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: role in population and range declines for these horned lizards, 293 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: they're not thought to be the only factor, or necessarily 294 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: even the main factor everywhere. 295 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 2: That's very much the case. Yeah, and reading about the 296 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: Texas horned lizard, like urbanization vast urbanization and Texas is 297 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: often singled out as one of the primary factors there exactly. 298 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the fire ant, the imported fire ant, seemed 299 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: to be one factor among many. And this came up 300 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: when I was watching a short documentary video that was 301 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: just delightful. I recommend people look this up. A documentary 302 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: video produced by Texas Parks and Wildlife in twenty twenty 303 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,959 Speaker 1: one called Horned Lizard Homecoming, you can find on YouTube. 304 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: It is a video specifically that's focused on an attempt 305 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: by the San Antonio Zoo to breed Texas horned lizards 306 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: in captivity and then release them back into areas from 307 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: which they have largely disappeared since the nineteen seventies. Just 308 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: one of the many charming things in this short documentary 309 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: is that the conservation biologists are working with a lizard 310 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: sniffing dog. So you know, imagine the canine unit at 311 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: the airport, but instead of a drug sniffing dog or 312 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: a bomb sniffing dog, it's a dog that is trained 313 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: to find Texas horned lizards in the wild and not 314 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: to bother them by the way, not go like pick 315 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: them up in the mouth and harass them until they 316 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: get a blood squirt, just to signal from a safe 317 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: distance that they found one. 318 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 2: Ah. That's awesome. 319 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: It's also very cute that the lizard sniffing dog in 320 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: the video is sort of wearing shoes as it goes 321 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: about its business. I think this is probably because they're 322 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: you know, it's a very scrub area and there's probably 323 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: a lot of like thorns and stuff. That can get 324 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: stuck in a dog's paw around there. But anyway, the 325 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: conservation biologists and the parks and wildlife workers they interview 326 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: in this video, they talk about a few other things 327 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: that are affecting the range and population of Texas horned lizards. 328 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: For example, human attempts to eliminate harvester ants from large 329 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: areas of land. Of course, again, Texas horned lizards need 330 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: to eat harvest or ants. Without the ants, the land 331 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 1: cannot sustain the lizards. And then also things like replacing 332 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: native grasses with different grass types, so you replace what 333 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: are called bunch grasses with turf grasses. This is not 334 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: what the lizards are adapted to and they can't really 335 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: survive in it. Of course, as you mentioned, Rob, just 336 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: general urbanization and reformatting of a lot of land area 337 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: roads cutting through natural land ranges, which interferes with movement 338 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: back and forth. But there's another thing I just wanted 339 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: to mention from this video because I found it hilarious. 340 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: There's a part where they're showing a lab at the 341 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: San Antonio Zoo where they're trying to breed lots of lizards. 342 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: So it's sort of it's a lizard sex lab, and 343 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: they are trying to facilitate mating, and they will put 344 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: a male lizard into a female lizard's tank. And there's 345 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: one part where the technician is explaining that the head 346 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: movements that we are seeing back and forth between these 347 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: two lizards indicate that they are both interested in mating. 348 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: But it totally looks like two lizards on a log 349 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,479 Speaker 1: just nodding back and forth at each other, like yep, yep, 350 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: it's great. It's a very Texas kind of nod as well. 351 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can imagine like the little cowboy hats being 352 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 2: on their heads, right, yeah, all right, Well, at this point, 353 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: I'd like to get back into some cultural connections to 354 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: the hornet lizard, and in the last episode we teased 355 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: out some connections in Navajo culture among the Dnet people, 356 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 2: and I wanted to get into some of that. So 357 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 2: there are there several mentions of the horned toad in 358 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 2: the nineteen forty four book Navajo Witchcraft by Clyde Kluckhohon, 359 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: who lived nineteen oh five through nineteen sixty. I've talked 360 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 2: about this text a little bit on the show before. 361 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: The version I have is from nineteen eighty nine with 362 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 2: some additions made to it, and there are several mentions 363 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: of the horned toad's use as a key ingredient in 364 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 2: various alleged spells in Navajo witchcraft, which I want to 365 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 2: stress the term witchcraft is used here as shorthand, not 366 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 2: for mainstream religious rituals and practice, but rather for what 367 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: is described, as described by Kluckhohn as quote Navajo ideas 368 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: and action patterns concerned with the influencing of events by 369 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 2: supernatural techniques that are socially disapproved. 370 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: Right, So what would be viewed by the people as 371 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: a sort of illicit, outsider form of magic. 372 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 2: Right, right, And it's my understanding as I understand it, 373 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 2: these are not necessarily things that were practiced, but were 374 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 2: believed to be practic by these few individuals. So the 375 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 2: book outlines various alleged curses, including the placing of a 376 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: personal item or a bit of clothing from a man 377 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: you want to death, curse inside a grave or inside 378 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: the mouth of a dead man, in the cursing of 379 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: a pregnant woman. A personal item is placed inside the 380 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: body of a horned toad or a horned lizard, or 381 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: a purse made from its hide. 382 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: Oh, interesting, and. 383 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: So that these would again, these would be specialized alleged 384 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: uses practiced by these you know, these outsiders that are 385 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 2: practicing this kind of like co or said to be 386 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: practicing this kind of like negative magical system. But there 387 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 2: is a fragment of a story shared late in the 388 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: book that is indeed a reference to a major Navajo 389 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: story about the horned lizard, and it does get into 390 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 2: some aspects of its biology, as we've discussed. So this 391 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 2: is the quote that is included in a Navajo Witchcraft 392 00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 2: as a commentary on something else that's reference to the 393 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 2: book quote. The story is about the holy toad who 394 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 2: eats ants that give him power. One day, he was 395 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 2: swallowed by a coyote who he had kindly given of 396 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 2: his best corn. So while inside, he asked the code 397 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: what all the things he sees are for, and finally 398 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 2: comes to the back brain and asked what it was for, 399 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 2: and the coyote said, that is what I live by. 400 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 2: Leave it alone. So the toad cut it into, killed 401 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: the coyote, and came out of his throat. 402 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: Wow. 403 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: So I looked up some other versions of this amazing story, 404 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: and there appear to be different versions of it, or 405 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 2: you know, there were different retellings of it. I was 406 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 2: reading a version from Navajo Religion, Volume one by Gladys A. 407 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: Reichard from nineteen fifty, and the way this one goes is, Okay, 408 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 2: there's a theft of corn. The corn belongs to the 409 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 2: horned toad, and coyote steals it, and then the horned 410 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: toad us is the cooty of the theft. But coyote 411 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: kind of laughs about it and says, well, yeah, I 412 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 2: am hungry, and then he eats the horned toad. But 413 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 2: then horned toad begins to move around inside the code 414 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: he's belly, and at first coyote thinks it's just the 415 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: corn that he ate, but then the toad begins to 416 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: talk to him. He's like, where am I? It's dark 417 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: in here, and he like kicks the inside of the 418 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: stomach just to you know, to sort of punish the 419 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 2: coote a little bit. But then he moves to the windpipe, 420 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 2: keeps speaking. Then he moves to the heart and this 421 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 2: is where he carves across in the heart and it 422 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 2: kills the code. He dead, and then he emerges from 423 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: the code. He's body in this telling or retelling of 424 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: it from the code he's anus. 425 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: This is interesting in how it matches with the cases 426 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: we talked about from biology in the in the previous 427 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: episode about animals that died from trying to eat a 428 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: horned lizard that was too big and too thorny, like 429 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: the various birds and snakes all. You know, it's like 430 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: a dangerous proposition to get too greedy with attacking a 431 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: horned toad that they have really serious spikes and they 432 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: can mess you up from the inside. 433 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you can imagine the story being inspired 434 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 2: by observations of that having occurred in predators, perhaps including 435 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 2: the coyote. And then, of course, as we referenced the 436 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: last episode, this nugget about them getting their power from 437 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: the ants that they eat, Like, that's right on as 438 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: far as they're irritating blood is concerned. 439 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: Right, because the idea, as we talked about last time, 440 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: is that there is something in the harvest or ant 441 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: diet that causes their blood to have the properties that 442 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: make it foul smelling or foul tasting to canids like 443 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: foxes and coyotes. 444 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, according to Navajo historian Wally Brown on Navajo 445 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: traditional teachings, This is a twenty twenty three video. The 446 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: grandfather horned toad is a symbol of protection, with the 447 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 2: spikes serving as arrow points that protect one. And he 448 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: also drives home that the horned toad is close to 449 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 2: the Earth, and which matches up with the way that 450 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: it lives its life, you know, not only being a 451 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: very terrestrial organism, but being solo to the earth, flattening 452 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 2: itself so that it doesn't cast that shadow as we discussed. 453 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 2: But he stresses that it can be used to bless 454 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 2: one's mind, to bless one's spirit, and to bless one's 455 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 2: physical well being. 456 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: I am interested in the way that it seems that 457 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: at least two humans, the spiritual connotations of the horned 458 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: toad or the horned lizard are really taken as almost 459 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: entirely positive. Despite the fact that it is a very 460 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: spiky looking creature. There seems to be a kind of 461 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: tension there. You would think, you see a creature that's 462 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: all like spiky and thorny like that, and I don't know, 463 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: people might just be more inclined to attach a kind 464 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: of negative spiritual energy to it. But so we have 465 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: these traditions that can consider the horned lizard as like 466 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: a route for a blessing, a blessing of the mind 467 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: and spirit and the health of the body. But also 468 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: just if you read about people's personal relationships who grew 469 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: up around these lizards, people have overwhelmingly positive feelings about them, 470 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: like very positive feelings about catching them and handling them 471 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: as children and things like that. Do you know what 472 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: I'm talking about? 473 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I was thinking about this as well. 474 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 2: I guess on one hand, it's worth stressing that like 475 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 2: they're they're not a direct threat to humans. You know, 476 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 2: it's not not even like a situation where you know, 477 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: they're Obviously there are a lot of like say, like 478 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: venomous snakes out there that are also not out there 479 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: in the game trying to have encounters with humans, but 480 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: it just happens, and you know, and you know, injuries 481 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 2: and so forth can can result. That's not really the 482 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 2: case here, Like, they're pretty much not a threat to us, 483 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 2: and so there's almost a certain like natural kinship with 484 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 2: them because they're out there in the world. They're dealing 485 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: with stress, stresses, they're dealing with predators, enemies, and they 486 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 2: have these natural defenses against them. But they also seem 487 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 2: very much like an underdog because they are small, and 488 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: you know it doesn't always work. Yeah. So there are 489 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: some other details on some of these traditions mentioned in 490 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: another book. I looked at Jane Manister's Horned Lizards. This 491 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: is a two thousand and two book from Texas Tech 492 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: University Press. The author here sites that at least in 493 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: some tellings of this the code is being punished for 494 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: stealing corn from the sacred stalk, that the horned lizard 495 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: is associated with inner protection, especially for warriors traditionally, and 496 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: then the author also cites that there may be a 497 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 2: Navajo taboo, or there may have been a Navajoa taboo 498 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: against including certain animals, including this one, in various rug 499 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: weaving designs, perhaps in deference to its special strength. Now, 500 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: I want to stress that Navajo traditions vary across time 501 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: and geography, as with pretty much any belief system, and 502 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 2: there are also aspects of Navajo traditions that are not 503 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: meant for me to know of. And I hope that 504 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: I've been respectful with what I've brought to the discussion here. 505 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: But I think this is always there's always a fascinating 506 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: relationship to be observed between a people's beliefs and a 507 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: people's natural environment. And I think that we see that 508 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 2: here with the horned toad or horned lizard, both as 509 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 2: a metaphor as well as an interpretation of what I 510 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 2: assume were observations of the horned lizard's biology in the wild. Now, 511 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 2: another source I looked at. I was looking at an 512 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: article by Joyce Gibson Roach writing for TCU magazine talking 513 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: about different cultural interpretations of the horned lizard, and this 514 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 2: author points to Spanish folk beliefs. So this would have 515 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 2: been you know, in Mexico for the most part, where 516 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: they would sometimes refer to the horned lizard as a 517 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 2: torrito dilo virgin or the little bull who protects the virgin. 518 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: And so this is there's kind of like two different 519 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 2: things going on with this this nickname. So we talked 520 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: about this in the last episode. How they may be 521 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 2: observed to charge like a bull and are sometimes referred 522 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 2: to as the little bull. 523 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, like against an absurdly larger predator, like 524 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: against a human shoe. Yeah. 525 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 2: And I think that I think this again, this is 526 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 2: one of the things that makes this animal charming. You know, 527 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 2: it's an underdog stand in its ground, you know, and like, 528 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 2: how can you not want to be like the like 529 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: the humble, horny toad in this respect? But then where 530 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 2: does the virgin come in? Well, this seems to be 531 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: connected to various interpretations that what's going on here is 532 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 2: that the horned toad is crying tears of blood. So 533 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: there is a long, sometimes controversial, and also generally skeptically 534 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 2: debunked history of statues of the Virgin Mary weeping tears 535 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 2: of blood in Catholicism, and accounts of of weeping statues 536 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: in general, aiding back at least to the writings of 537 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 2: Plutarch in the first and second century see now. I 538 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: should also point out that humans can experience blood in 539 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: the tears or blood from the tear ducks or hematuria 540 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: for various reasons. So for instance, when my son was younger, 541 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 2: he had tubes put in his tear ducks to correct 542 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: a minor problem, and immediately after surgery he shed a 543 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 2: single tear of blood, which was pretty awesome. At the time, 544 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 2: we knew everything was fine, you know, and it was 545 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: just kind of like, oh, wow, that was a blood tear, 546 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: but only got the one agreed, if you know, not 547 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 2: to worry. That is pretty cool, all right. Now another 548 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 2: connection to the horned toad the horned lizard in culture. 549 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 2: This is one that was shared in that book by 550 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 2: Jane Manister Horned Lizards from two thousand and two. She 551 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: gets into a number of different traditions, at least mentioning 552 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: that there are a number of ideas about them being 553 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 2: tied up in weather predict and rain generation, which I 554 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 2: guess is understandable of a creatures that clearly is able 555 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: to thrive in a very arid environment, and we have 556 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: these unique observations, you know, concerning the way that they 557 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 2: catch rain and so forth. But then she also gets 558 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 2: into this account that some of you may have heard 559 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: of before. I believe stuff you missed in history class 560 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 2: did a whole episode about this last couple of years. 561 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 2: There's the story of Old Rip. This is a horned 562 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: lizard originally named Blinky, that was placed in an Eastland County, 563 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 2: Texas time capsule along with a bible, some coins, and 564 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: some newspapers. And then when the capsule was dug out 565 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: thirty one years later, the lizard was allegedly still alive. 566 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: I don't know about that. 567 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, A lot of solid reasons to doubt this detail 568 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 2: of the story, but this is the main detail of 569 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 2: the story. So it's like everyone who's celebrating this, it's 570 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: like they're basically the idea being that they were saying 571 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: the cowboy lore is correct. This is a victory of 572 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: cowboy biology. They were right the cowboys when they said 573 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 2: that the horned toad could live for one hundred years 574 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: without food or water. Because clearly this particular horned lizard 575 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 2: was locked away for thirty one years and we just 576 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 2: got him out and he's still alive. Everyone and take 577 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 2: a look at him. So this was very popular at 578 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: the time. Old Rip toured the country, even met President 579 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 2: Coolidge at the White House, and ultimately died in nineteen 580 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: twenty nine. Now, various folks later took credit for switching 581 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 2: out lizards at the capsule's opening. So this is that 582 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: I want to stress that this is almost certainly a hoax, 583 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of reason to believe it was 584 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 2: a hoax. This was not carried out with any kind 585 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 2: of like scientific rigger, but it was a big deal 586 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 2: and it was covered in the New York Times among 587 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 2: other major publications. In fact, I want to read to 588 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 2: you from the New York Times. This is from February twentieth, 589 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty eight. Oh boy, toad alive after thirty one 590 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 2: years sealed in Texas cornerstone, Eastland, Texas, February nineteenth ap 591 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: hey hornage toad sealed alive in the cornerstone of the 592 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 2: courthouse here thirty one years ago, was alive when the 593 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 2: stone was removed yesterday. According to County Judge Edward S. Pritchard, 594 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 2: the old courthouse is being raised, and it goes into 595 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: some additional details, including this bit that I also have 596 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: to include. After the cornerstone was removed, the toad appeared 597 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: lifeless for some time, but in a little while it 598 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 2: opened its eyes. In about twenty minutes, it began to breathe. 599 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 2: The mouth, however, appeared to have grown together. 600 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: What grown together? 601 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I was looking around. There's some other 602 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 2: takes on this as well that. 603 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: Oh, they're also saying they're going to open the mouth 604 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: by surgery and force it to eat food. 605 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's also the New York Time story. So yeah, 606 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 2: this story, I should be clear, there were a number 607 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 2: of skeptics at the time that were like, that doesn't 608 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 2: sound right. Let me see this toad. I think there 609 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 2: was maybe there may be one or two support supporters 610 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 2: in the scientific community who are maybe like, well, it's possible. 611 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 2: I don't know, but generally people were very doubtful about this. 612 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 2: And then on the other hand you had others pointing out, well, 613 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: clearly the animal survived in the time capsule because there 614 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 2: was a Bible in there. The Bible sustained the lizard. 615 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 2: I guess the Bible also made the lizard's mouth grow together. 616 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I've read other accounts that it had 617 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 2: a broken leg and worn down horns but was otherwise healthy. Yeah, 618 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 2: and then others claim that their eyes were sealed shut 619 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 2: as well. There seems to be a certain amount of 620 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 2: drift in the telling and retelling of this this feat. 621 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 2: But here's what we actually know to be true. So 622 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 2: hornet lizards can live around five but normal lifespan in 623 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 2: the wild is not fully known, according to the Oklahoma 624 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 2: Department of Wildlife Conservation. But I think we can probably 625 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: take that as like a ballpark. According to Texas Monthly 626 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 2: in a twenty fifteen article by Alex Dropkin, the Texas 627 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 2: horned lizard species hibernates, or rather bermates between October and April, 628 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 2: and this is likely where that cowboy lore originated, that 629 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 2: these creatures can live without food or water for one 630 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 2: hundred years. And this is the lore that the folks 631 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 2: in Eastland, Texas decided to put to the test. This 632 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 2: is why they put a horned lizard inside of a 633 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 2: time capsule to test or I think, if we're being 634 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 2: rightfully skeptic here to prove that the cowboy lore was correct. 635 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 2: There is no evidence that horned lizards in the wild 636 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 2: choose hibernation spots based on the presence of biblical texts 637 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 2: or coins or newspapers. But I guess we should note 638 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: that long lifespans for lizards are not completely unheard of. 639 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 2: The New Zealand tuatara can live twenty five to thirty 640 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 2: five years, typical age ages to sixty or apparently common, 641 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 2: and one captive specimen apparently lived to be over one hundred. Meanwhile, 642 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 2: some wizards can go without food or water for weeks 643 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 2: or months. I think it's safe to say that the 644 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 2: accounts of Old Rip places the story so far outside 645 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 2: of anything reported or at least, you know, authenticated to 646 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 2: any reasonable degree that common sense leans us very strongly 647 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 2: in the direction of hoax here. 648 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: You know, we talked not too long ago on the show, 649 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: we were doing some stuff about cave biology, and we 650 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: ended up talking about the cave dwelling amphibian, the olm, 651 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: which is notable for being one of the most sort 652 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: of sedentary creatures on Earth that it can live for 653 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: a long time. It's an aquatic salamander. It's found in 654 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: the dynaic alps in cave systems. It lives in the 655 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: dark for much of the time, and it is thought 656 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: that sometimes these creatures can go for like ten years 657 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: without food, and that in itself is incredible, but that 658 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: seems to be sort of the upper bound of where 659 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: you can where you can push push the slow motion 660 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:18,479 Speaker 1: metabolism too. 661 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And so again this if this story of 662 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 2: old Rip were true, it would just it would, you know, 663 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: triple that that ten year record. So yeah, I think 664 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 2: we are very right to be highly skeptical of this. 665 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 2: And again, various folks came forward and claimed that they 666 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 2: were involved with the hoax and so forth. So there's 667 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 2: a lot of smoke there that suggests the fire. I 668 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 2: should also point this out. You know, we're talking about 669 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 2: in endangered status of hornet lizards. This particular incident was 670 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 2: so popular that it resulted in a horned toad boom, 671 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 2: so the yet specimens being harvested and then exported for 672 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 2: novelty's sake, hurting local populations in the process. But hey, 673 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 2: old rip is allegedly currently entombed in Eastland, Texas. I 674 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 2: think he's on display. So if we have any Eastland 675 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 2: listeners or visitors to Eastland, or folks who have been 676 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 2: to Eastland and can report on the body of old 677 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 2: rip rite in, we would love to hear from you. 678 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 2: I believe he has at least historically been stolen at 679 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 2: least once and returned. 680 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: Are you, County Judge Edward S. Pritchard, what criteria did 681 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: you use to judge that this was the real original lizard? 682 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 2: All right? I have another interesting bit that I ran 683 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 2: across in these texts that I want to talk about. 684 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 2: This is from Manister's book as well, and it is 685 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 2: the horny toad Man, something that I know, on the 686 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 2: surface absolutely sounds like a cryptid or some American Western 687 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 2: horror story, and the fact that it's associated with the 688 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 2: railway I think only compounds this possibility. 689 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like he belongs alongside sasquatch and paramouth. 690 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 2: A yeah. So. According to Manaster, the figure emerges in 691 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 2: response to a unique problem on a segment of the 692 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 2: Santa Fe railroad connecting Albuquerque and El Paso, a segment 693 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,240 Speaker 2: of track that was dubbed the Horny toad a segment 694 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 2: where anything bad that ever happened on the railroad could 695 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 2: happen and had happened, including a unique problem first reported 696 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 2: apparently in the Jiorada del Niorto desert basin, and that 697 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 2: is trains losing traction on the rails due to the 698 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 2: grease and moisture of hundreds of squashed hornet lizards. What so, 699 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 2: Apparently it was so bad that brakemen and firemen aboard 700 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 2: the train would have to scramble down onto the tracks 701 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 2: and sweep it all off to get all this gunk 702 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 2: off the tracks, and it led to the idea, nay, 703 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 2: the ideal of the horny toad man. So, a horny 704 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 2: toad man is not merely like somebody that goes down 705 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 2: and sweeps off the rails in the scenario, this is 706 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 2: a railway man with eyes on corporate promotion, willing to 707 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,280 Speaker 2: do anything and everything the company requires in order to advance, 708 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 2: and that certainly includes going out onto the tracks in 709 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 2: the desert heat and removing lizard guts from the rails. 710 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: So this is a this is a railroad company version 711 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: of I'll get the boss's coffee, you know, I will 712 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: sweep the sweep all of the horny toad grease off 713 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:27,800 Speaker 1: of the rails. 714 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 2: Right, And to put it in an alien context, since 715 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 2: we're talking about Alien in the last episode, you might 716 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 2: consider Burke from Aliens a horny toad man of sorts, 717 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 2: you know, a complete scoundrel, but he proves that if 718 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 2: nothing else, he is more than ready to get down 719 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 2: there on the tracks and get his hands dirty for 720 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 2: the company. He's a company man all the way. 721 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: That's right, all right. 722 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 2: Now, In trying to understand this, I guess we do 723 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 2: have to acknowledge that hornet lizard populations would have been 724 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 2: greater back in this time period as opposed to you 725 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 2: know what they are now. Can't compare what we see 726 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 2: in the world today to what would have been happening then. 727 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,759 Speaker 2: But I needed more clarity on why are there so 728 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 2: many horned lizards getting run over by trains? And I 729 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 2: found a possible answer here In a nineteen twenty two 730 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 2: paper by J. P. Givler, Givler writes, it is an 731 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,399 Speaker 2: interesting fact that at such times horned lizards are very 732 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 2: abundant under the crossties of railroad tracks. Often they burrow 733 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 2: through into the area between the two rails. Here they 734 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 2: emerge and are literally trapped. The rails are usually too 735 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 2: high to be climbed over, and the lizards run up 736 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,000 Speaker 2: and down frantically. Occasionally one climbs up on a rail 737 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 2: just in time to be crushed by a passing train. 738 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,439 Speaker 2: Many live for the rest of the summer in this 739 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 2: uncomfortable pasture bummer. Now it doesn't come I mean, it 740 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 2: doesn't completely answer my question, but it at least puts 741 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 2: a lot of horned lizards in the vicinity of those 742 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 2: train tracks. And you know, he only mentions it as 743 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 2: being like an occasional squad. But may I guess that's 744 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 2: close enough to like a mass squashing that we can 745 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 2: consider this reality. Now, I look for any discussions out 746 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 2: there in the literature about loss of traction due to 747 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 2: animal railway mortalities, and I looked at it. At least 748 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 2: one full source on animal railway mortalities or one that 749 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 2: deals with this in depth titled railway ecology. And there's 750 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,839 Speaker 2: no mention in this of tracks getting greased up by 751 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 2: dead animals or dead lizards. So if true, maybe this 752 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 2: was indeed more of a concern with an historic engine 753 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,400 Speaker 2: and an historic local population of lizard. I'm not sure, 754 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 2: but I will add the following from another paper. I 755 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 2: looked up Experimental evaluation of effect of leaves on railroad 756 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,399 Speaker 2: tracks and loss of breaking by Kumar at All. This 757 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 2: is in the Journal Machines in twenty twenty four. Quote 758 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 2: loss of traction results in either breaking of the train 759 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 2: or slip, which arises at lower track active coefficients. This 760 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 2: case occurs when there are third body layers that cause 761 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 2: reduce traction, such as in the case of leaves. Various 762 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 2: traction enhancers are adopted by the railway to improve adhesion 763 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,439 Speaker 2: when the rail is contaminated. 764 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: Okay, so you can certainly imagine that leaves falling on 765 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: railroad tracks could reduce the traction between the wheels and 766 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,240 Speaker 1: the rails. So yeah, you can guess that if like lizards, 767 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: especially not just like lizard body fluids, but whole lizard 768 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,279 Speaker 1: bodies were on the rails that might interfere in some way. 769 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 2: That's my guess. You know, if we're not dealing with 770 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 2: leaves here, we're dealing with lizard bodies and lizard guts 771 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 2: and lizard liquids. But I guess if there were enough 772 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 2: of them, and also dealing with the idea that these 773 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 2: are not modern trains, these are historic drain engines, can 774 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:56,360 Speaker 2: I guess it's conceivable that there would have been some 775 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 2: sort of issue here, thus necessitating the horny toe man. 776 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: Horny toad man, we salute you. 777 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't know if we have any anybody 778 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 2: out there who is, you know, verse more versed than 779 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 2: the history of locomotives and in the railway in America, 780 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 2: you know, right in we'd love to hear from you. 781 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,439 Speaker 1: What's your company's version of the horny toad man. 782 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess there's there's probably a horny toad man 783 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 2: in any business, in any corporation. So those were some 784 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 2: of the cultural connections to the horned lizard or a 785 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 2: horned toad or horny toad that I was able to 786 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 2: come across. But I'd love to hear from anyone out 787 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 2: there if you have some additional insights to share. Be 788 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 2: they related to something we discussed in this episode, or 789 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 2: something we missed altogether, be it you know something from 790 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 2: Native beliefs and traditions that you want to share, or 791 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 2: cowboy lore or indeed cowboy poetry. I'm still at a 792 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,799 Speaker 2: loss that there's not at least one cowboy poem out 793 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 2: there on the Internet that deals with these guys. 794 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: Surely I'm gonna blame Google being bad now for the 795 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: inability to connect with that literature. 796 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, well we're gonna ahead and close out 797 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 2: this episode, but yeah, right in, we'd love to hear 798 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 2: from you. Let's see a little housekeeping here. Hey, if 799 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 2: you're on Instagram, look us up. We're STBYM podcast. That's 800 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 2: our handle. You can follow us there and keep up 801 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 2: with some of what's coming out in the old podcast feed. 802 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,800 Speaker 2: And in that old podcast feed, we've got core science 803 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,720 Speaker 2: and culture episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episode 804 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 2: on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, we set aside most serious 805 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 2: concerns and just talk about a weird film on Weird 806 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 2: House Cinema. 807 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway, 808 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: and special thanks to our excellent guest audio producer Chandler 809 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 1: may Is for sitting in with us today. If you 810 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 811 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,800 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 812 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hi, you can 813 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 814 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:07,879 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 815 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 816 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.