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Speaker 1: Content varies by packaging. Location restrictions apply the volume. Boxing

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Speaker 1: with Chris Mannix is brought to you by FanDuel. It's

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Speaker 1: never been easier to play fantasy on FanDuel. Whether you

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Speaker 1: a contest for every fan fan duel more ways to win.

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Speaker 1: This is Boxing with Chris Manning. Oh, somebody punch him

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Speaker 1: in the face. Anty Joshua is a composed and ferocious finishers.

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Speaker 1: What's this heady? Hosted by Sis Chris Mannix. That was

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Speaker 1: my moments now with interviews, analysis and everything going on

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Speaker 1: in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you

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Speaker 1: are given another chance. Here's Chris Mannix. All right, it's

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Speaker 1: emergency podcast time. We have an upset in boxing. Anthony Joshua,

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Speaker 1: for the second time in three years, is no longer

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Speaker 1: the heavyweight champion. Joshua losing a unanimous decision to Alexander

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Speaker 1: Usik Usik, just three fights into his heavyweight career, is

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Speaker 1: now the unified heavyweight champion. To talk about that, I'm

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Speaker 1: bringing my friend Sergio more broadcast partner over at the Zone,

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Speaker 1: former junior middleweight champion. Sergio. We just watched this moments ago.

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Speaker 1: What's your reaction to Usik beating Joshua. Well, listen, when

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Speaker 1: when you asked my prediction, I said it was going

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Speaker 1: to be a fight that went to distance. It did

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Speaker 1: go to distance. I told you that if this was

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Speaker 1: a pre Andy Ruiz Anthony Joshua, I would pick Usik

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Speaker 1: to win this fight. But you gotta hand it to Usik.

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Speaker 1: He controlled the fight from beginning to end. I thought

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Speaker 1: he won this fight convincingly. I mean it was a

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Speaker 1: close fight if you have the rounds up, and Joshua

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Speaker 1: did have this moments. He was able to find his

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Speaker 1: way in there in the mid round. But Usick hands down.

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Speaker 1: You gotta give it to him. The game plan was there,

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Speaker 1: the pot shots. He had to face a little bit

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Speaker 1: of adversity too. With the body shots. Joshua found a

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Speaker 1: home with a leptop to the body. All in all,

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Speaker 1: I mean for Usik to go into opponent's hometown not

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Speaker 1: only not only Joshua. He goes into other people's hometown

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Speaker 1: and takes the championship away from the champion, shutting down

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Speaker 1: the crowd, going against the promoter, the judges. You gotta

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Speaker 1: applaud that Nicks. You know how hard that is to do.

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Speaker 1: Just all around impressive, impressive performance. Yeah, you knew Usik

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Speaker 1: was going to be comfortable. He's been a row warrior

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Speaker 1: for his entire career, whether it's going to Latvia to

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Speaker 1: fight breedus, going to the UK to fight Bellue and

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Speaker 1: then Shasa. Now in front of sixty five thousand pro

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Speaker 1: Joshua fans in Tottenham, he didn't look rattled at all.

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Speaker 1: And I did pick Sergio Joshua to win by knockout.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things I said this week was

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Speaker 1: USI's got to find a way to win those early

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Speaker 1: rounds and make Joshua uncomfortable. And that's exactly what he did.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he came out in those first three rounds.

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Speaker 1: He was bouncing on his toes, he was moving around

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Speaker 1: the ring, he was landing the cleaner shots, and what

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Speaker 1: I saw from Joshua was a complete lack of adjustments.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he just seemed content to sort of stand

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Speaker 1: there in the middle of the ring and just sort

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Speaker 1: of turn with Usik. Like he wasn't using his size

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Speaker 1: advantage to pressure Usik. He wasn't using his longer jab

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Speaker 1: to ours long jab, I should say, to land, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of set up shots. He was just kind of

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Speaker 1: standing there in the middle of the ring and throwing

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Speaker 1: kind of a pawing jab out there. At times. I was,

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Speaker 1: you know, we get three rounds in Surgie. What I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking to myself, like josh was gonna have to win

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Speaker 1: by knockoff. There's no ways winning this fight by decision. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I kind of saw that myself. But the thing

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Speaker 1: about footwork is that whenever you have brilliant footwork, I mean,

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Speaker 1: who stick looked like a ballerina, like a like a

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian ballerina, and they're throwing punches. He wasn't allowing the

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Speaker 1: bigger man to set his feet. I know you hear

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Speaker 1: that often, but to do it for thirty six minutes

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Speaker 1: and doing it laterally going to the left and to

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Speaker 1: the right, and doing it from the southpaw stance, which

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Speaker 1: naturally has that advantage. And Joshua hasn't faced many south

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Speaker 1: Paus As a professional. He was able to capitalize on

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Speaker 1: his advantage the entire fight with focus. That's the thing.

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Speaker 1: These were Ukrainian fighters, and these Eastern European fighters have

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Speaker 1: not only Olympic background, but the focus, the focus to

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Speaker 1: do it the entire fight. You can be winning eight

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Speaker 1: rounds and get knocked out by a big puncher like that,

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Speaker 1: but fighters like Lo Munchenko, they come from that school

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Speaker 1: and this is the pressing man. This is a mental,

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Speaker 1: mental warfare as much as it was somewhat physical. But

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Speaker 1: he took the physical away from this fight. He took

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Speaker 1: the heavyweight away from this championship fight. Focus on Joshua

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Speaker 1: for a second. What disappointed you the most about the

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Speaker 1: way he fought? You know, there was a little doubt

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Speaker 1: in Joshua's eyes in midway through the fight, he realizing that,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I can't touch this guy because he

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Speaker 1: didn't utilize the job the only way Joshua was gonna win.

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Speaker 1: In look, we only we only picked Joshua to win

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Speaker 1: by knockout, but there was there was times where USA

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Speaker 1: could have knocked knocked him out it looked like and

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Speaker 1: hurt him because there was that Andy Ruiz going to

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Speaker 1: his head again. You've seen it pop up a little

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Speaker 1: bit in Joshua's eyes, But I would like to have

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Speaker 1: seen him go to the body earlier. He did it midway,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't enough. So body earlier not focused on

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Speaker 1: the head of Us, just focused on touching him to

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Speaker 1: the chest, hiding him the shoulders, and banging him away

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Speaker 1: at the body. He was able to do that, US

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Speaker 1: caught a second. But before he CAUGHTI I think USA

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Speaker 1: could have actually done some bill some more rounds and

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Speaker 1: more and more minium, because US was a little winded

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Speaker 1: going into the eighth, ninth, going to the championship rounds.

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Speaker 1: But he did it. You know. One of the things

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Speaker 1: I said at the top was, of course, this is

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Speaker 1: not the first time Joshua has lost. Not the first

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Speaker 1: time he has dropped his titles. The first time happened

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Speaker 1: against Ruise in twenty nineteen. That loss Sergio was shocking,

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Speaker 1: But I think this loss was a lot worse. Like

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Speaker 1: you can look at the Ruise loss even in the

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Speaker 1: aftermath and say, all right, he got caught by an

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Speaker 1: equilibrium changing punch to the temple that screwed him up

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Speaker 1: for the rest of the fight. There was no equilibrium

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Speaker 1: changing punch from Usk. This was just a beating from

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Speaker 1: a guy who is an accomplished boxer. I mean this

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Speaker 1: it was an upset, but probably shouldn't be considered that

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Speaker 1: big of an upset because Usk is, like Joshua, an

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Speaker 1: Olympic gold medalist. At Cruiser Went, he fought everybody. He

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Speaker 1: went through the best of the best in the world

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Speaker 1: Boxing super Series. He took on Tony Bellu. This guy's

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Speaker 1: the real deal. And while he didn't land that highlight

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Speaker 1: real shot against Joshua, he beat him up. And I

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Speaker 1: would say for saying, and you're the fighter, you can

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Speaker 1: tell me if you agree. But I think a loss

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Speaker 1: like this is harder for Joshua to bounced back from

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Speaker 1: because he wasn't just hit with one shot that changed

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Speaker 1: the course of the fight. He was with a lot

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Speaker 1: of shots that completely changed the fight. And there's really

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's no reason to believe in my mind

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Speaker 1: that things will be a lot different in the rematch. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I gotta say, I disagree that the first loss is

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Speaker 1: always the hardest, and it's always the hardest because it

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Speaker 1: came by knockout. If he would have lost to Andy

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Speaker 1: Rui's by decision, and he could have regrouped fine, but

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Speaker 1: he got embarrassed in the biggest stage at MSG on

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Speaker 1: a fight that he was supposed to win and he

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Speaker 1: was twelfth to one favorite or whatever it was. But

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Speaker 1: that was a harder loss. This one is gonna be

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Speaker 1: mentally harder to come back from. The first one was physical.

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Speaker 1: This one was gonna be mental. And the older you

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Speaker 1: get as a fighter, you start to you know, obviously

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Speaker 1: your body's body starts breaking down, but mentally, if if

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Speaker 1: the hunger's not there to regroup and focus on what

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Speaker 1: went wrong, especially when you got pretty much routed, you

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Speaker 1: got you got out boxing beaten up for twelve rounds.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a physical beatdown. It was mental warfare at

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Speaker 1: his absolute best. He who sick just never let the

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Speaker 1: heavyweight champ fight like a heavyweight champ. And that's think

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Speaker 1: about what that does to the mentality of the heavyweight

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Speaker 1: champion of the world. Man. And this is the exact

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Speaker 1: same thing that we saw with Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are mental things at Wilder and Joshua

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Speaker 1: are going to have to come back to the table

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Speaker 1: and say, man, do I really want this but it's

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Speaker 1: all mental, it's all hard. Look, Usick is the older fighter,

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Speaker 1: he's thirty four years old. But as he said afterwards,

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Speaker 1: you have not seen the best of Alexander Usik at heavyweight.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you give him another training camp and you

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Speaker 1: give him the benefit of getting twelve rounds in with

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Speaker 1: Joshua tasting the power, tasting the speed, Usi is going

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Speaker 1: to be better. I mean, we're not going to get

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Speaker 1: a situation like we had in Saudi Arabia, Sergio or

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Speaker 1: Andy Ruise. You know, ate his way up to two

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Speaker 1: hundred and eighty three pounds and wasn't in any kind

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Speaker 1: of shape to fight Joshua in the rematch. Usik is

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Speaker 1: going to come in a better version of himself in

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Speaker 1: this next fight, and that's what makes me more leary

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Speaker 1: to think that Joshua can find a way to avenge

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Speaker 1: this loss. You know, it was going to be a

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Speaker 1: close fight for Andy Ruiz and Joshua. I thought Joshua

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Speaker 1: was gonna come back and do well, but I didn't

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Speaker 1: think he's gonna box for twelve rounds the way he did.

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Speaker 1: So he impressed me. So I don't put nothing past Joshua.

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Speaker 1: But you're right I don't see him out boxing Usick.

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Speaker 1: The only way he'd beat Usick is by knockout, and

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Speaker 1: we didn't. We didn't get a taste of that. We

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Speaker 1: didn't get a taste of a knockdown or Usik being

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Speaker 1: badly hurt or didn't win did it not having that

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Speaker 1: other gear. He passed every test who Stick did, even

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Speaker 1: when he felt like he was getting a little bit

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Speaker 1: fatigued physically, he found another gear. He was able to

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Speaker 1: not get hit by the big shots, not let the

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Speaker 1: momentum ship whost have dominated. I just don't see Joshua

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Speaker 1: coming back in and regaining the championship. Not only is

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Speaker 1: it one of the hardest things to do in boxing,

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Speaker 1: that's why two time and three time division champions are rare,

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Speaker 1: but when it does happen, it's historic and it's very special,

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Speaker 1: and we'll realize why. I don't think Joshua is able

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Speaker 1: to do it, not against Susi well, which brings us

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Speaker 1: to a topic you and I often disagree on. After

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Speaker 1: the loss to Andy Ruiz, a lot of people were

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Speaker 1: calling for Rob McCracken's head after that fight, saying Joshua

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Speaker 1: needs to shake up his team. You are to your credit.

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Speaker 1: You know consistently have said that you don't make change

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Speaker 1: your team, stick with the guy. You know, if you

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Speaker 1: got a good guy, stick with him. Do you still

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Speaker 1: feel that way about Rob McCracken and Anthony Joshua. You know,

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Speaker 1: I was listening to Robert McCracken's instructions in the corner,

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Speaker 1: and he was giving them the right instructions. I just

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Speaker 1: think mentally, Joshua was kind of going in and out,

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Speaker 1: and we've seen that before. He kind of gets lost

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Speaker 1: in the corner and he I don't really think he

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Speaker 1: absorbs what he should be absorbing. But if it's gonna

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Speaker 1: help him mentally, yes, bring someone else in. Yes, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go out and say this, because, like you said,

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Speaker 1: Joshua was already in his thirties. There's a second time

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Speaker 1: he loses badly on the big stage. Maybe it's time

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Speaker 1: to bring in someone else, just like Wilder Wilder did.

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Speaker 1: But you know, you can go about it a different way,

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Speaker 1: bringing someone finally tuned that could show you how to

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Speaker 1: fight behind the jab fight Taller, go to the body

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Speaker 1: bringing a strategy, and I just follow around a fighter

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Speaker 1: like Usik. So yeah, this time around, I said, bringing

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Speaker 1: someone Yeah, I just didn't like the strategy at all.

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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things I saw with derk

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Speaker 1: Jsura against Usik was that in the first few rounds,

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Speaker 1: the pressure of Jasura got to usk Jura just couldn't

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Speaker 1: maintain that pressure because it's in his late thirties and

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Speaker 1: doesn't have the conditioning for that. I never, outside of

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Speaker 1: like some spurts in like the fourth, fifth, and sixth rounds,

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Speaker 1: I didn't see Joshua applying pressure. I didn't see him

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Speaker 1: trying to marshal those physical tools in the ring, So

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Speaker 1: I think he got to go in a different direction.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Vladimir Klitschko and Lennox Lewis could be horribly boring,

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Speaker 1: but they were enormously successful because they were trained by

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Speaker 1: Emmanuel Stewart, who groomed them to use those physical gifts.

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Speaker 1: Joshua is six foot six. He should be using his

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Speaker 1: physical tools as a weapon against smaller fighters. So if

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Speaker 1: we're at this point of the careers of Rob McCracken

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Speaker 1: and Anthony Joshua and they're not doing that, I think

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Speaker 1: it's time. Now. Immanuel Stewart is no longer with us,

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Speaker 1: but you know, maybe it's somebody else. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned trainer changes. You know, Ben Davison is a great trainer,

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Speaker 1: but you can't argue the success that sugar Hill has

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Speaker 1: had with Tyson Fury. Sugar Hill brought more of an

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Speaker 1: offensive oriented approach to Tyson Fury, and that helped Fury

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Speaker 1: pick up the knockout against Deontay Wilder. I'm not saying

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Speaker 1: make a change for the sake of men ga change,

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Speaker 1: but if you identify somebody out there that can bring

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Speaker 1: something else out of you that hasn't been there yet,

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Speaker 1: I think you gotta do it. I think we're at

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Speaker 1: that point, Sergio, where it's we're just going back to

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Speaker 1: rob and going back to the I'm not even just

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Speaker 1: talking about the trainer. Like, you gotta change everything, man,

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Speaker 1: Like you've got to get out of the UK for

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Speaker 1: your training camp. You gotta make yourself a little bit

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Speaker 1: more uncomfortable. Go to the US, go to Big Bear,

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Speaker 1: go to Colorado Springs. Just do something a little bit

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Speaker 1: different to try to get some of that fireback that

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Speaker 1: you had early in your career. Yeah, it kind of

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Speaker 1: like Rocky going to Russia, right, you know, I mean basically,

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Speaker 1: but you've seen that though, too. Like, guys, I mean

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you change your training camp location,

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Speaker 1: but I see it all the time in boxing where

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Speaker 1: guys you know, bounce around to different places and you know,

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Speaker 1: have success because of it. Whatever, whatever works man, whatever

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Speaker 1: works for the fighter. Anthony Joshua doesn't seem like the

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Speaker 1: mentally the mentally unf guy that that starts blaming everybody.

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Speaker 1: So you gotta like the fortitude he has there. So

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Speaker 1: I think he'll just want to regroup with the exact

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Speaker 1: same people, maybe get out of the UK. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it was a game plan and a strategy that went

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Speaker 1: wrong with him. And here's the thing about your sword.

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Speaker 1: You brought up your sword. You know what your sword

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Speaker 1: did that he had success that Joshua did not do.

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Speaker 1: He used his physical tools, he got, he got in

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Speaker 1: the insight, made it rough and started using his body

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Speaker 1: on usk a little bit. Joshua didn't do that. Whenever

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Speaker 1: you're the bigger man and you're someone in a clinch,

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Speaker 1: you gotta get the man and you gotta man handle him.

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Speaker 1: You gotta put your weight on them, you gotta make

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Speaker 1: them kill your your strength, your size. Let the referee

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Speaker 1: you know, warn you about that. Not to wrestle, not

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Speaker 1: to blean owner not to bend, but too late, the

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Speaker 1: legs already absorbed that. So that's one thing, josh we

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Speaker 1: didn't do that. Your sword had success doing. If he

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Speaker 1: looks back, you can look at the jab more jab,

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Speaker 1: more body shot, more wrestling, more clinching, more getting them

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Speaker 1: against the ropes, making it a dirty fight. So these

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Speaker 1: are all things that But he can go back to

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Speaker 1: the drawing board and look once he looks his fight

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Speaker 1: and it's not even it's not even dirty to lean

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Speaker 1: on a guy. It's just kind of using a tactic.

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Speaker 1: Tyson Fury does that all the time. I remember when

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Speaker 1: he did that to Steve Cunningham. He did it Deontay

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Speaker 1: Wilder even like leaned on him and sapped the strength

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Speaker 1: of Wilder's legs forcing him to hold up that you know,

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Speaker 1: three hundred pound frame whatever he is. Um, that's a tactic.

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Speaker 1: You're right, Anthony Joshua needs to utilize. By the way,

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Speaker 1: speaking of Fury, what do you think Tyson Fury was

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Speaker 1: thinking as he watched Alexander Usik dismantle Anthony Joshua. I

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Speaker 1: think he was thinking, imagine what I would do? Imagine. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think he's I think he's probably counting money though, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there goes ten million, twenty million, you know what, you

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Speaker 1: know what, Theory doesn't fight for money. He's he's the

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Speaker 1: type of guy. Everybody fights for money, everybody, But when

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Speaker 1: it comes to the Gypsy King, you know, damn well,

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Speaker 1: he fights for pride. He fights for that. He I mean,

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Speaker 1: he comes from that, from that background, so he knows

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Speaker 1: that it's about ego and pride and proving that he's

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Speaker 1: the best, and he's done that. But I think more

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Speaker 1: it's about what can Fury do. I mean, Fury has

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Speaker 1: some excellent boxing skills too, and he's way bigger and

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Speaker 1: longer and stronger than Ustick. So that's what I think

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Speaker 1: he was thinking. If Ustick, a smaller version of me,

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Speaker 1: can do this, imagine what I would do. Oh, I

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Speaker 1: mean Fury with his boxing skills, you'd make him a

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Speaker 1: huge favorite against Joshua based on what we saw there.

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Speaker 1: But man, he's got to be you know, not now,

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Speaker 1: Fury if he beats Deontay Wilder, which is a tough fight,

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't discount Deontay Wilder's chances. Now he's maybe looking

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Speaker 1: at a Dillian White fight and kind of crossing his

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Speaker 1: fingers and hopes that Joshua wins a rematch. I don't know, man,

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Speaker 1: that's that that fight could be another one that winds

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Speaker 1: up in the waste basket of boxing fights that never

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Speaker 1: actually happen. Which was your favorite? Your favorite waste basket?

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Speaker 1: By the way, I hate everything about that last thought

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Speaker 1: on Joshua. Like you know, Eddie Hearn said afterwards, they're

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Speaker 1: gonna go into an immediate rematch. They're gonna check on

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Speaker 1: the eye of Joshua. Herne had some concerns about maybe

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Speaker 1: an I socket potentially being broken. Do you see him

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Speaker 1: recovering from this fight physically? Yeah? Absolutely, I think physically

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Speaker 1: the warrior in him is gonna want to come, you know,

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Speaker 1: back to the ring as fast as possible. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to say, the bigger the ego, the bigger

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Speaker 1: the fighter, the bigger chip on their shoulder they're gonna have.

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Speaker 1: So you know, Joshua's gonna want to come back a

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Speaker 1: SAP And if he's cleared, I think the more time

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Speaker 1: that passes, the worse is gonna be for him, not

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Speaker 1: only you know, because of his age, but because of

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Speaker 1: the criticism and everything else that's gonna get into his head.

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Speaker 1: So I think the best way to go here is

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Speaker 1: to get back in there and get to some media

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Speaker 1: rematch a sap. Yeah, I mean six months, eight months,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is, get back out there. I'd also advised to.

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Speaker 1: And this kind of goes back to what we were

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Speaker 1: talking about it. It's one thing to it's great to

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Speaker 1: have a crowd behind you, but I do think Joshua

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Speaker 1: needs to do something different. I mean, he had such

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Speaker 1: success against Ruiz in Saudi Arabia, you know, a completely

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Speaker 1: far flung location for maybe he's got to go back

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Speaker 1: to New York City or go to Los Angeles, Las

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Speaker 1: Vegas somewhere and do something a little bit. You have

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Speaker 1: the good I'm glad you touched on this. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: looking back, we all were off twenty twenty vision, but

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Speaker 1: Joshua came out really relaxed, more relaxed than than he

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Speaker 1: normally does. He's slowing down, he was really playing to

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Speaker 1: the crowd. He's stopping and giving high fives to people

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Speaker 1: and smiling. It looked like he was stopping for pictures.

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Speaker 1: This is really really comfortable, Anthony, Joshua and I'm used

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Speaker 1: to the smiling, you know, charismatic guy, but this was

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Speaker 1: a little bit too confident. Overconfident, I think, I think

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Speaker 1: give him another chance and out of that atmosphere, like

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Speaker 1: he said, instead of seventy thousand, do seventeen thousand and

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Speaker 1: let him take care of business. But I think he

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Speaker 1: was he played the showman a little bit too much

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Speaker 1: coming out into that arena. By the way, where do

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Speaker 1: you now put us on your pound for pound list?

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's gotta be top three after this win,

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Speaker 1: being undisputed cruiserweight champion, beating Tony Bellu Nello I think

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Speaker 1: is the class of it. But when you look and

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Speaker 1: you and I think the same way on this, the

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Speaker 1: strength of the resume outside of Canello, not too many

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Speaker 1: guys have. In fact, I would argue maybe Spence has it,

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Speaker 1: but I mean he's got a great resume, so I

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Speaker 1: think you've got to put him in the top three.

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Speaker 1: Have to put him to top five. I'll just say

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Speaker 1: four because you know, I mean what you got Canellottle, Crawford,

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Speaker 1: Spence and you have to look at us. But Usik

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Speaker 1: and Spence are there, man. I mean this was a

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Speaker 1: career changing pound per pound performance by by Usik, and

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Speaker 1: I think everyone, hands down has to agree with that,

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Speaker 1: no question, Sergioup, good stuff man. We will talk on

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Speaker 1: the Zone this week. Check out our show Jabs. You

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Speaker 1: can see that twice a week over on to Zone.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for doing this, but you got him