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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to keep the line between the past

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Speaker 1: and the past.

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Speaker 2: You believe that someone out of the past can enter

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Speaker 2: and take possession of a living We.

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Speaker 3: May be through with the past, but the past is

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Speaker 3: not through with us.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the Next Picture Show, a movie the week

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Speaker 4: podcast of it to a classic film and how it

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Speaker 4: shaped our thoughts on our recent release. I'm Keith Phipps here.

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Speaker 5: With Genevieve Kowski, Scott Tobias and Tasha Robinson here on.

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Speaker 4: The Next Picture Show. We believe that no film exists

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Speaker 4: in a vacuum, and that all culture is more interesting

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Speaker 4: in context. So every other week we get together to

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Speaker 4: talk over a classic film and consider how it relates

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Speaker 4: to a current movie. This week, we're off to a

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Speaker 4: pair of lands transformed by enigmatic forces from outer space. Tasha,

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Speaker 4: after you slowly emerge from a underground tunnel filled with

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Speaker 4: terrifying noises, could you tell us about this week's pairing?

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Speaker 1: Sure? I could, But alternately, I could spend a long

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Speaker 1: time building up to revealing this week's pairing and then

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Speaker 1: ultimately choose to walk away from it. The problem is,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that would do a lot for our listeners.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes On this podcast, we make pairings based somewhat

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Speaker 1: loosely on two films, themes or moods, or general subject matter.

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Speaker 1: At other times, we look at a new film and

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Speaker 1: find an older one, without which it's impossible to imagine

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Speaker 1: the new one existing. Lately, we've had good luck at

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Speaker 1: finding direct points of comparison with our episodes, pairing a

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Speaker 1: Phantom Thread with Rebecca and The Shape of Water with

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Speaker 1: the Creature from the Black Lagoon. This week finds us

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Speaker 1: looking at two similarly closely related films. Alex Garland's Annihilation

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Speaker 1: is a loose adaptation of Jeff Vandermeer's twenty fourteen novel,

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Speaker 1: the first in a trilogy, but the film's premise, themes,

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Speaker 1: and style give it just as strong a connection to Stalker,

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Speaker 1: Andrew Tartowsky's philosophical science fiction film, released in Russia in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine before rolling out to the rest of

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Speaker 1: the world in the early nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 4: Both feature characters braving dangerous they head into territory claimed

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Speaker 4: by an alien force. Both find those characters exploring landscapes

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Speaker 4: that have at least one foot in the world of

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Speaker 4: dreams and metaphor, and both ultimately reveal that their journeys

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Speaker 4: have become quests for nothing less than MENI itself, but

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Speaker 4: they also seem at times like mirror versions of one another.

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Speaker 4: Tarkowsky's deliberate pace and opaqueness actively work against the traditional

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Speaker 4: expectations of a narrative movie, but Stalker still contains enough

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Speaker 4: recognizable genre elements to be unmistakably a science fiction film,

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Speaker 4: and one would ties to other thoughtful science fiction films

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Speaker 4: in the nineteen seventies. If you squint, Garland's movie looks

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Speaker 4: like a sci fi blockbuster, it's got gunpacking movie stars

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Speaker 4: headed into a strange land filled with histories and dangerous beasts.

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Speaker 4: But folded into it is a story that's extremely Stalker

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Speaker 4: like in its concerns, especially when the journey starts to

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Speaker 4: break down its heroine's preconceptions of identity and explore what

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Speaker 4: separates us from the world around us. So let's slip

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Speaker 4: past the barriers of the known world into Stalker's the

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Speaker 4: Zone before embarking on a second voyage into annihilations the Shimmer.

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Speaker 2: So we should slut the Stema now stated it's a

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Speaker 2: lusu got sousa speak of the futury says plunged some.

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Speaker 4: Andre Tarkowski's Stalker never lets viewers find their footing. After

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Speaker 4: a short senior at a bar that reveals itself as

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Speaker 4: a key location, it opens with some explanatory texts that

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Speaker 4: seems straightforward enough, setting up a world in which a

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Speaker 4: small country has become the home of a quote miracle

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Speaker 4: after the arrival of alien visitors were possibly a meteorite.

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Speaker 4: No one sure that miracle is the zone, a place

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Speaker 4: where the text continues, those who enter never return, prompting

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Speaker 4: the government to surround it and prevent others from entering.

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Speaker 4: This will soon be revealed as a quote from a

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Speaker 4: Nobel Prize winning professor that concludes, we did right, although

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure, and it soon revealed that the unseen

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Speaker 4: professor has ample reason not to be sure. We then

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Speaker 4: meet the Stalker, a man who, contrary to the preceding quote,

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Speaker 4: has made a living taking others into and out of

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Speaker 4: the zone, and, despite the protestations of his wife, plans

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Speaker 4: to continue doing so by escorting a writer and a

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Speaker 4: scientist through the security cordon and into the zone in

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Speaker 4: search of the room, a spot set to fulfill the

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Speaker 4: deepest desires of those who will reach it. And that's

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Speaker 4: pretty much the plot of Stalker. I could probably even

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Speaker 4: walk us up to the end of the movie at

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Speaker 4: a few more sentences. But in movies, it matters less

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Speaker 4: what happens and how it happens, and that's especially true here.

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Speaker 4: The film's not without action. There's a daring dash to

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Speaker 4: the border in a fight of sorts at what could

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Speaker 4: be called the climax, but from the long opening shot

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Speaker 4: of the Stalker and his family is sleeping in our

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Speaker 4: bed as a train passes by, to the apparently miraculous

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Speaker 4: events in the final scene, Tarkowsky demands we pay attention

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Speaker 4: and slow ourselves to the rhythms of the film, whether

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Speaker 4: that means contemplating the back of his character's heads as

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Speaker 4: they travel by railcar into the zone, or pausing for

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Speaker 4: philosophical monologues about music or writing or the nature of happiness,

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Speaker 4: the latter most delivered by Stalker's wife in a direct

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Speaker 4: address to the Camra, and from the start it's clear

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Speaker 4: that Stalker is concerned with the biggest issues that science

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Speaker 4: fiction setup can contain. Their journey becomes the kind of

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Speaker 4: stand in for all journeys, a search for meaning through

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Speaker 4: a terrain that changes with those who travel through it.

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Speaker 4: It's fitting then the shape of the film itself changed

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Speaker 4: dramatically as Tarkowski reconceptualized it over the course of a

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Speaker 4: shoot that saw him going through two locations after an

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Speaker 4: earthquake took out one of them and three cinematographers, and

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Speaker 4: ultimately shooting much of the film twice. And he did

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Speaker 4: it all under the hazardous conditions that made the beautiful,

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Speaker 4: desolate landscape of the film a kind of torture for

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Speaker 4: those who created it, and which may have contributed to

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Speaker 4: the early demise of Tarkowski, his wife and others. That's

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Speaker 4: all outside the scope of the film, but it doesn't

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Speaker 4: seem irrelevant when discussing a movie determined to remind us

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Speaker 4: that every moment we experience is freighted with matters of

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Speaker 4: life and death, and that making ourselves aware of it

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Speaker 4: is a duty we dare not neglect. All Right, everyone,

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Speaker 4: traditional opening, and I think this may actually take up

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Speaker 4: the rest of the podcast. What does you think of Stalker?

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Speaker 1: I am mildly obsessed with Janet Maslin's review of it

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Speaker 1: from nineteen eighty two. I mean, I know, like you

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily expect everyone to get it right, all the time.

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Speaker 1: But there's a line in this thing.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm gonna know what that line is, but

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Speaker 3: I'm actually looking at myself because I think, I think

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Speaker 3: I know what you're a quote, but go for it.

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Speaker 1: The fact that film is a visual medium cannot entirely

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Speaker 1: be ignored. Stalker offers the eyes so little of it

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Speaker 1: it might well have been made a better novel or

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Speaker 1: short story than a nearly three hour long pime.

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Speaker 3: That's the one, And it's like, what.

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Speaker 1: Film are you watching this movie? I feel like the

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Speaker 1: first time I watched it, I didn't come to grips

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Speaker 1: with the philosophical conundrums or the journey or the emotional

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Speaker 1: content at all, because I was just so blown away

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Speaker 1: by the visuals. There are some some shots in this

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the camera shot down the well when

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Speaker 1: the Stalker throws something in and sort of makes a

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Speaker 1: series of wishes that might as well be prayers, and

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Speaker 1: you're just watching the water churn and then like slowly

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Speaker 1: find equilibrium again. People complain that this movie is slow,

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Speaker 1: and it is. People complain that there's not a lot

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Speaker 1: to grasp in terms of the point, and in a

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Speaker 1: way it is until you watch it again. And sort

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Speaker 1: of feel that out. But it's it's so visually absorbing,

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Speaker 1: and to me, the characters come across just through the

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Speaker 1: environment through the first the sereness of it and then

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Speaker 1: the lushness of it. Every shot of this thing is

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Speaker 1: so beautiful, and I was just mesmerized the first time

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Speaker 1: I watched it, and then the second time I watched it,

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Speaker 1: it's like all of these ideas start coming across. I

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Speaker 1: didn't have that much trouble telling the difference between these tall, gaunt,

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Speaker 1: bald men because they're so representative of different ideas. I'm

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Speaker 1: so taken with this movie.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's one of those things. I mean, this is

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Speaker 4: sort of the virtue of you know, I guess a

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Speaker 4: slow cinema is the term, right Scott. When you're doing

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Speaker 4: so little, everything counts, everything counts so much more, you know,

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Speaker 4: every every gesture has so much more significance too. It's

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Speaker 4: like when this film goes from monochrome to color, it's

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Speaker 4: it's as shocking as an explosion, and it's it's such

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Speaker 4: a wonderful moment. And the way these things are are

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Speaker 4: drawn out, it's kind of like side Showbob with the Rake,

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Speaker 4: where it's like I'm fascinated by this. I'm a little

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Speaker 4: bored by it. But wait, the longer I look at it,

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Speaker 4: the more grip it has on me. It's it's yeah,

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Speaker 4: this is I'd never I had not seen this movie before, really,

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Speaker 4: and I meant to see it for years, but it

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Speaker 4: just didn't quite get there. And then uh, yeah it was.

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Speaker 4: It was great to catch up with it. I see.

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Speaker 5: I thought I would be the only newbie in the skirt.

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Speaker 5: That that makes you feel better and also makes me

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Speaker 5: even more impressed that you are leading this discussion, Keith,

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Speaker 5: because I was intimidated by this movie. I'm intimidated by Tarkowski,

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Speaker 5: I'm intimidated by Russian cinema. Like I'm still all of

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Speaker 5: those things after watching it. But I had a very

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Speaker 5: kind of small frame of reference for this movie that

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Speaker 5: had to do mainly with its lowness there it's deliberateness

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Speaker 5: and it's meditative nature, and honestly, for the first half

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Speaker 5: hours so of the movie, outside of you know, that

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Speaker 5: slow opening sequence in the bed that you mentioned, Keith,

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Speaker 5: like I was not seeing it because the you know

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Speaker 5: then breaking into the Zone is pretty action packed, at

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Speaker 5: least by comparison to what follows, so I was like, oh, well,

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Speaker 5: this isn't so bad. I can do this for another

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Speaker 5: two hours. But then that sequence, which to me just

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Speaker 5: feels like such a key sequence in the film of

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Speaker 5: them on the rail car and just the sound of

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Speaker 5: the track, that very rhythmic, kind of lulling soundtrack that

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Speaker 5: you know, gets these little mechanical synthetic pings coming in there,

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Speaker 5: and you just like are studying the shape of these

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Speaker 5: men's heads for minutes on end, and it really does

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Speaker 5: kind of put you into a little bit of a

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Speaker 5: trance that I think really serves to get you into

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Speaker 5: the zone, as it were, for the rest of the film.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's the thing about Tarkowsky and just maybe

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Speaker 3: slow cinema in general, is that it kind of changes

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Speaker 3: your metabolism to maybe that's an Annihilation esque idea, but

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Speaker 3: it teaches you in a way how to watch it

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Speaker 3: or and you kind of get with the flow once

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Speaker 3: you kind of understand the whole rhythm of the thing,

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Speaker 3: And to me, the movie still is just more of

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Speaker 3: a vibe. I mean, you know, there are a lot

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Speaker 3: of philosophical ideas at play, and we'll get into them,

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Speaker 3: and certain things are residents, some things are quite obscure

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Speaker 3: to be still, But I think it's most exciting just

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Speaker 3: as a piece of cinema with which to kind of

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Speaker 3: vibe with. That has to do with the photography. It

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Speaker 3: really has to do with the sound just being immersed

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Speaker 3: in this place that is on earth but unreal, and

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Speaker 3: to have images that you know, it's not like I mean,

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Speaker 3: you do have images of the film in settings that

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Speaker 3: are very unusual and alien in nature, but there are

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Speaker 3: other scenes that are just the earth, and for Tarkovski

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Speaker 3: to imbue those scenes with such an eerie quality and

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Speaker 3: such an unsettling quality that takes a lot of cinematic

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Speaker 3: Bryo and I just find the film to be mesmeric primarily,

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Speaker 3: and that's kind of central to its appeal to me.

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Speaker 1: It does have a very dreamlike quality to it. It's

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Speaker 1: easy to get a little dozy with it, which seems

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Speaker 1: like a good thing because it's trying for a form

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Speaker 1: of a very fixed surrealism. Like most films when you

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Speaker 1: say surreal, this is not the kind of thing that

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Speaker 1: you think of. It's almost surreal conceptually more than it's

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Speaker 1: surreal and its execution, you know, because there's the whole

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Speaker 1: thing about the land here is recreated around us from

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Speaker 1: moment to moment. It is what we are. It reflects us.

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Speaker 1: But we don't see things swimming or like melting, and

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Speaker 1: you know, there's there's not a lot of special effects

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Speaker 1: going on here.

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Speaker 4: It's always just like being told that you're in a

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Speaker 4: different zone. Everything takes on a strange cast. I mean,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's not that much set dressing in most

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Speaker 4: of the scenes at least, but it is strange just

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Speaker 4: the way it's shot and the way and then the

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Speaker 4: characters react to everything.

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Speaker 1: Although a little bit also in the setting, just in

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Speaker 1: the sense that I mean if you take a step

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Speaker 1: back and you don't really look at the details of

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Speaker 1: the visuals, you just kind of, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: look at i don't know, somebody's summary of the film,

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Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, they're chomping through the sewer a lot,

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Speaker 1: but there's so many weird details in that place. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they shot in a couple of abandoned factories, and there's

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Speaker 1: the point where they're fighting over the bomb and they're

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Speaker 1: just all of these like flasks and bottles like floating

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Speaker 1: around in the muck, and they're fighting on this sort

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Speaker 1: of island that you can't really tell what it's made of.

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Speaker 1: It almost looks like a lava flow in the middle

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Speaker 1: of this flooded room. One of the things that makes

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Speaker 1: it so surreal for me is just the sort of

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Speaker 1: constant question of what even are we looking at? Like

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Speaker 1: is this a found set? Or how to what degree

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Speaker 1: did they create these weird little islands, these weird little flows,

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Speaker 1: those hillocks of sane dunes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. I don't I mean, that

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Speaker 3: felt like it was meticulously created, But there are other

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Speaker 3: elements that aren't. And I wonder how much the landscape

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Speaker 3: because I you know, it would be resonant to you know,

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Speaker 3: a Russian viewer at the time as being representative of

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Speaker 3: a certain amount of institutional decay, right, I mean, you

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Speaker 3: have all these tanks and structures that are rotted or

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Speaker 3: are full of growth and salag tites. The whole landscape

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Speaker 3: of the film just feels so so much like deterioration

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Speaker 3: in death. And of course one of the things that

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Speaker 3: people tend to point out about the film is that

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Speaker 3: it seems remarkable that it was that it's a pre

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Speaker 3: Chernobyl movie, you know, especially once they get out you

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Speaker 3: get the shot of the nuclear stacks and just the

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Speaker 3: sense of the Earth itself being a poisonous, toxic, radiant,

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Speaker 3: unlivable environment. It feels like a very nuclear film, right.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't think of this film unless it was referenced

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Speaker 4: on Stalkers. We have page, But there was that film

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Speaker 4: a couple of years ago, The Chernobyl Diaries, which I

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Speaker 4: didn't see, is a found footage horror film about it.

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Speaker 4: It did see someone who takes takes people into the

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Speaker 4: Chernobyl zone based that's right, and then finds all kinds

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Speaker 4: of horrific monsters. So it sounds like the found footage

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Speaker 4: horror movie of Stalker.

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Speaker 1: It also sounds like Monsters the movie.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think I reviewed Chernobyl Diaries and didn't reference Stalker.

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Speaker 3: That's a big failure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well go back and slip it in.

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Speaker 1: It's the Internet.

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Speaker 4: We're here to remind you of their failures. Yeah, they actually.

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Speaker 4: As to a question I want to raise, is what specifically,

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Speaker 4: and I don't think any of us is here are

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Speaker 4: are experts on Soviet history or the Cold War, But

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Speaker 4: what feels specifically Soviet era to you about this film?

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Speaker 4: And what is universal on the first front? I mean,

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Speaker 4: you know, you have the sort of these strange but

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Speaker 4: recognizably totalitarian uniforms of the people trying to keep them out,

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Speaker 4: and just the whole idea of escaping over the border

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Speaker 4: to a land that is different feels very much sort

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Speaker 4: of a Cold War things, not uniquely a Cold War idea,

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Speaker 4: but I think it's depicted with those in those terms

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Speaker 4: a little bit here.

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Speaker 1: There's also just those rusted out tanks. As Ciscott kind

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Speaker 1: of referenced, there's a feeling not just of institutional decay,

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Speaker 1: but of history of eras. I mean, one of the

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Speaker 1: things we just don't really deal with much in America,

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Speaker 1: apart from battlefields like Gettysburg being preserved to some small

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Speaker 1: degree as tourist attractions, is the idea of the country

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Speaker 1: having like layers upon layers of history based around war

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Speaker 1: happening there. And the idea of these old tanks just

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Speaker 1: sitting around slowly falling to ruin, these old factories that

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Speaker 1: have been abandoned and left to just run riot with

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Speaker 1: grasses just kind of gives you a sense of entire

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Speaker 1: institutions that have risen and fall and entire invading forces

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Speaker 1: or resisting forces, entire regimes that have risen and fallen.

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Speaker 1: But on top of that, there's just a greed, a

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Speaker 1: degree to which the entire sense of there is an

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Speaker 1: unknown place out there where you can have everything you desire.

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Speaker 1: So of course the government doesn't want us to have it.

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Speaker 1: We think that some outside force has given it to

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Speaker 1: us so that we can be happy, So of course

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Speaker 1: the government's ideas that we have to be shut off

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Speaker 1: from it. Like there is such a combination of leaden

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Speaker 1: despair and philosophical resignation to so much classic Russian art,

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Speaker 1: particularly Russian novels in Russian cinema, and this whole idea

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Speaker 1: of well, you know, our happiness is right there, but

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Speaker 1: it takes an alien to bring it to us, and

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Speaker 1: the government won't let us have it.

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Speaker 3: Just so Russian to me, well, I'm going to be

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Speaker 3: the good Russian here and encounter you. Because the other

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Speaker 3: the competing idea that comes up in the film is well,

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Speaker 3: other couple things. One is that someone making their wishes

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Speaker 3: come true, you have no control over what those wishes

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Speaker 3: are and what kind of impact they might have on

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Speaker 3: everyone else against the bomb, and so there's a reason

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Speaker 3: to defend that. And then there's the other idea, which

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Speaker 3: is that maybe when you go into the room, it

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Speaker 3: is not a conscious wish that is being granted at all,

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Speaker 3: but something that you can't really control. And what are

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Speaker 3: the ramifications of that in that sense it's it's a

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Speaker 3: dangerous place, and it's and it would surely contribute to

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Speaker 3: the fact that these guys don't actually go into the room.

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Speaker 1: Right, I agree with you, but I honestly think it's

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Speaker 1: it's just another iteration of that same philosophical resignation. There's

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Speaker 1: that idea of happiness is not a thing for us,

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Speaker 1: like happiness is not something we can be given because

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Speaker 1: it will probably destroy us.

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Speaker 3: Well, let me give you one another another thing too,

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Speaker 3: because I think the film that you know, it is

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Speaker 3: obviously important that the film ends with the stalker's wife

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Speaker 3: talking directly into the camera. So if you really want

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Speaker 3: to underline what is the point of Stalker, that's what

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Speaker 3: you want to key in on. And she's talking about happiness,

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Speaker 3: and she's talking about this marriage that she's entered into,

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Speaker 3: you know, against her parents wishes again, you know, against

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Speaker 3: I think beyond the comprehension of friends, perhaps that she

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Speaker 3: knows the she's going to accept a certain amount of

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Speaker 3: heartbreak and disappointment and struggle, but there's that there's going

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Speaker 3: to be some kind of a bittersweet happiness, uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: and devotion there anyway, and then she's willing to accept

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Speaker 3: the reality of that, and the reality of that is

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Speaker 3: something that exists entirely apart from and not in need

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Speaker 3: of a place like the zone in that room.

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Speaker 4: I think it's also there's sort of a male female

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Speaker 4: divide there where happiness and satisfaction or something that that

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Speaker 4: men look for by going off and leaving home and

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Speaker 4: searching for something and stalking through the wilderness and questing,

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Speaker 4: and and her definition is is sort of a more

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Speaker 4: kind of a resigned fatalism. And that's what happiness is.

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Speaker 4: It's it's it's the feelings you have measured against the

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Speaker 4: unhappiness that you feel too. That this is not the

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Speaker 4: idea of an absolute source of happiness. It's going to

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Speaker 4: grant all your wishes is not something oho I guess

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Speaker 4: she does at one point does think about going into

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Speaker 4: the zone, but it's not sort of something that comes

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Speaker 4: to her naturally. It's so interesting that Indian reminded me

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Speaker 4: of not to get two side trap. It reminded me

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Speaker 4: of Ulysses, where you know, you have this whole novel

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Speaker 4: from these two men's points of view, and they you know,

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Speaker 4: they're walking around dublin and philosophizing and so on, and

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Speaker 4: then you get a whole last chapter totally different change

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Speaker 4: of perspective from the woman's point of view. And that's

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Speaker 4: kind of what seems to be going on here as well.

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Speaker 3: Keith, did you study the book.

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Speaker 4: Ulysses a little bit.

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Speaker 3: In some sort of a formal setting, perhaps.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of novels that we've studied in a formal setting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, to me, the whole idea of the wife

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Speaker 1: and her speech to me just feels very toll Stoy.

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Speaker 1: The whole idea of like happiness is not something that

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Speaker 1: you can be given, It's something that you learn through

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Speaker 1: hard work and a certain amount of compromise, just feels

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Speaker 1: like something that comes up in like Tolstoy over and over.

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Speaker 5: Is there a specific Tolstoy that you would say that

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Speaker 5: came up with perhaps the death of Ivan Iliach.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember that one so well.

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Speaker 5: I ask, because that, along with Ustayevski is the Idiot,

388
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Speaker 5: comes up in Tarkovsky's like first diary entry that like

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Speaker 5: mentions this filmnineteen seventy four, and in that diary entry

390
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Speaker 5: he also writes, quote, at the moment, I can see

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Speaker 5: a film version of something by the Stragatsky Brothers as

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Speaker 5: being totally harmonious in form, unbroken, detailed action, but balanced

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Speaker 5: by a religious action entirely on the plane of ideas,

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Speaker 5: almost transcendental, absurd and absolute. And I bring that up

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Speaker 5: because I feel like we're really dancing around the fact

396
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Speaker 5: that this, at least to me, comes across as a

397
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Speaker 5: deeply religious movie. We keep couching it in philosophical terms.

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Speaker 5: But Tarkovsky was a deeply religious man, and I've found

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Speaker 5: many quotes from him saying that, Like you know, it's

400
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Speaker 5: a very important element of his films, and soccer is

401
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Speaker 5: not working at the level of allegory. I don't think

402
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Speaker 5: in the Soviet Union, in that era it could be

403
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Speaker 5: a direct religious allegory, which speaks to your question, Keith,

404
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Speaker 5: about how it reflects the era. But like in the

405
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Speaker 5: themes and questions and meditations that this film is dealing with,

406
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Speaker 5: so much of it just seems explicitly religious, and there's

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Speaker 5: so much Christian imagery. I'm thinking of the blood and

408
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Speaker 5: in the water the writer scorns you know, the water,

409
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Speaker 5: the baptismal waters, you know, like it's I feel like

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Speaker 5: I need to watch this film like with a Christian

411
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Speaker 5: scholar or something, just to like map it more directly.

412
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Speaker 5: But I also kind of suspect it doesn't map that directly,

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Speaker 5: as like I said, as an allegory.

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Speaker 1: Well, it also just I mean, it seems to come

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Speaker 1: down to the fact that the writer is our most

416
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Speaker 1: verbal character, and he's the one that starts off the

417
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Speaker 1: movie by saying there is no supernatural, there is no

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Speaker 1: spiritual in the world. The world is boring and nothing

419
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Speaker 1: interesting ever happens here. And then he's proved wrong both

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Speaker 1: by the zone and by his own reactions to it,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately he seems to come out thinking, you know,

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Speaker 1: the world is a more spiritual place than I thought

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Speaker 1: it was, and as a result, he has to completely

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Speaker 1: abandon the quest that he thought he started out on

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Speaker 1: because it's based on a philosophically flawed argument.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and perhaps not one that he's It seems almost

427
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Speaker 4: more posturing than his actual feelings, which a lot more

428
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Speaker 4: complicated in torture, as we learn over the course of

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Speaker 4: the film.

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Speaker 1: As too, themes that are universal one thing that touches

431
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: me is just the very end, with a child reading

432
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: poetry and just sort of casually playing with her powers,

433
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,400
Speaker 1: which seem to come to her as a result of

434
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: her father's time in the Zone. There's a sense of

435
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: hope there. I think that isn't necessarily present in the

436
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: rest of the movie. Her father goes on and not

437
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: about hope and how the point of the Zone is

438
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: to give mankind hope. But in the end the movie

439
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 1: seems to suggest I think that the hope is with

440
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,239
Speaker 1: the children, hope is with the future. Hope is the

441
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 1: next generation will be better equipped to deal with this

442
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: sort of thing than we are.

443
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 4: She's the only character who gets a name, and she

444
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 4: is Monkey Martiska, and she is the only one who

445
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 4: we see in color in sort of the monochrome non

446
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 4: zone world. And I kind of read that as sort

447
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 4: of whatever separated that's transcendent and hard to reach about

448
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 4: the Zone from the monochrome world of the real world.

449
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 4: Maybe this is a generation that's going to break down

450
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 4: that barrier. And then maybe that manifestations of her powers

451
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,479
Speaker 4: at the end is kind of a symbolic of that.

452
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,360
Speaker 4: I also thought at one point this may be the

453
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 4: world's slowest X Men origin story.

454
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 3: But you really just line this up right next to Logan,

455
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 3: and I think if you want to, like you want

456
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: to tie all those things together and talk about children

457
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 3: and religion and hope, et cetera, than Andre rube Lev

458
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 3: maybe his most famous film perhaps well this is This

459
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 3: is Solaris, and Andrey Rublev has the whole thing with

460
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 3: the church bell or the big bell and everything. That's

461
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 3: the take of a huge tongue of the film in

462
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 3: the end, and that's that has a bigotranscendental quality. So

463
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: it was kind of these things are present as you

464
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 3: describe them.

465
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 5: I just read that last scene with the child as

466
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 5: just confirmation of the miraculous nature of the zone, because

467
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 5: I mean I could be missing it or just being stupid,

468
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 5: but like I didn't like really see any actual moments

469
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 5: of like supernatural in the zone. It's where it's all

470
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 5: like a feeling. It's all what the stalker is telling

471
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 5: us will happen. There's like kind of a little bit

472
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 5: of it when the writer hears someone telling him to

473
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 5: turn back, but that's kind of ambiguous.

474
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: Like the there is the professor getting a phone call

475
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: in the middle of Zone, apparently from someone he knows.

476
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, not the clinic, Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean there's

477
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 5: there's a lot that's like eerie and unnatural about the Zone.

478
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 5: There's I don't think we see anything that confirms the

479
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 5: Stalker's faith that this is a miraculous place, and so

480
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 5: I think that final scene is the confirmation of that

481
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 5: miracle that he sees in this place that he struggles

482
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 5: to impart onto the writer and scientists too and fails. Ultimately.

483
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: There is also the it is just the refutation of

484
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: our introduction to writer. I mean, somebody that that dog

485
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: is surely like has been produced by the Zone for

486
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: one of them. I don't know who wish for a

487
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: very nice dog.

488
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 5: But well the writer already has five, so probably.

489
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: Not probably not a very nice dog, though I know

490
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: he definitely definitely deserves. Well, they're all good dogs, Scott

491
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: A very good definitely definitely needed some of your scratches.

492
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:19,719
Speaker 3: Now.

493
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 1: That dog was just really cute.

494
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 4: So these characters don't have names, do They feel more

495
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 4: like types and fully fleshed out characters to you.

496
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: Every time I revisit this movie, I want to see them.

497
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: I always get like a chaucer feel of like, okay, so,

498
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: so we have three individuals who are named by their professions,

499
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: and they're going to represent different aspects of the world,

500
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: and they're going to represent those professions, and then they

501
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: just immediately get muddied for me because I mean, not

502
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,239
Speaker 1: to tip our annihilation hat too much, but it kind

503
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: of feels like they merge into each other a little bit,

504
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: like they start crossing over and changing who they are.

505
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: You could argue that they're kind of getting whittled down

506
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: by the journey to to more essential versions of themselves.

507
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: But I just don't see them as being all that

508
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: representative of Like I seeing analysis of Stalker that really

509
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: wants to break it down to the professor is representative

510
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: of science, and the writer is representative of art, and

511
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: the stoker is representative of spirituality. But I just I

512
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: don't see it playing out that specifically with them. I

513
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: think they all manifest different kinds of struggles with faith

514
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: and struggles with belief and struggles with their own inner demons.

515
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I mean there's not going to be a

516
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: huge amount of distance between a writer and a professor anyway, Hey, right,

517
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 3: I mean, and there's a certain you know, the two

518
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 3: of them seem so much more alike than they do

519
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 3: to the Stalker himself. I mean, there's an arrogance that

520
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 3: they bring to the table, the defiance of his orders

521
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 3: or as his expertise. They're going to do things their

522
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 3: own way. He's going to go the professor is going

523
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 3: to go back to get as his rucksack for I

524
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 3: guess we find out later a very important reason. And

525
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 3: the writer's not going to ignore the nut throwing and

526
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: it just move and move forward on a direct path

527
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 3: to the room. So in that sense, they seem very

528
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 3: much alike.

529
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 4: I have a hard time remembering who has what monologue

530
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 4: and who has like what point of view, because they

531
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 4: all kind of seem to be from the same authorial

532
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 4: perspective in some ways.

533
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are definitely scenes where one of them becomes

534
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: more more distinctive of a character than others. I mean,

535
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: for me, one of the most Stalker's most important scenes

536
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: is at the beginning when he breaks away from him

537
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: and almost goes and rolls in the grass. I mean,

538
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: he lies down in the grass and just sort of

539
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: embraces it, and you kind of see a weight fall

540
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: off of him.

541
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 5: So he prostrates himself in front of the zone.

542
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: To me, no, it's not like that. It's it's almost

543
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: like watching a dog rolling in the grass, like he

544
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: rolls over on his back and just.

545
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 5: Reverent to me.

546
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, to me, it's it really is just like

547
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: it's like a physical sensation, like he's getting back in

548
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: touch with life, with like actual the fecundity of the world.

549
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: And then that scene when the writer keeps throwing him

550
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: off the professor when he's trying to get the bomb,

551
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: and he breaks down weeping and tries to explain why

552
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: it's important to him that he does what he does.

553
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: He just he seems like a stronger and more specific

554
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: character to me than the other two.

555
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 5: Just to like go back to that final scene one

556
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 5: more time in talking about types, am I weigh out

557
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 5: on a limb here in seeing those three glasses is

558
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 5: representing the three men, and there's one holding a brown liquor,

559
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 5: one holding what looks like specimens of some sort, and

560
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 5: then the one that actually gets pushed off the table

561
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 5: is an empty vessel.

562
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: Wow, Genevieve, that's good, that's really cool.

563
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 5: All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna leave before I that

564
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 5: did not occur, and they just dropped the mic.

565
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 3: I did not think about that. I guess I wanted

566
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: to make one more point about this film and Tarkovski

567
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 3: and just the way it plays. I have all of

568
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 3: you have you seen Solaris? Who've seen Silarisis?

569
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: I've seen the fifty percent of Slaris I didn't fall

570
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: asleep through.

571
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 4: It's really good.

572
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: I given how much I love this movie, I absolutely

573
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: shouldn't visit it. I saw it many, many, many years

574
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: ago when I was during a period where I was

575
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: working weird hours for the onion and not get enough sleep,

576
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: and it was very common for me to sleep through movies.

577
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: So I, yes, I really need to go back.

578
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

579
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 3: But gues just narrow point is that I think their

580
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 3: companion films that he has an approach to science fiction

581
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 3: which is about, you know, allowing a lot of strange

582
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: things to happen, in putting characters in strange and settling situations.

583
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: But what the primary purpose is to create sort of

584
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: a psychic or a philosophical space from which to kind of,

585
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 3: you know, meditate, in his words, sort of sculpt time

586
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: and do Tarkowski things. And so that so to me,

587
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: the two films Solaris and Stalker are companions in that respect,

588
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 3: and that they take you to this this meditatative space

589
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 3: and allow you to consider a lot of really heavy

590
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 3: ideas that he's throwing out there. So it's really all about,

591
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: in both cases just setting up this scenario. I mean

592
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: they both they both have pretty strong premises, but don't

593
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 3: necessarily have a whole lot of story or happening beyond

594
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: that premise. You're just really kind of put in a situation,

595
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: and he's all about creating an atmosphere and a vibe

596
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 3: and a feeling from which you can kind of think

597
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: about larger ideas.

598
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 4: George Cloinne is really good and silaris yes, underrated under

599
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 4: Actually I did you like to remake us?

600
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: That was funny that the hilarious I did like Thecelaris,

601
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 3: which got, of course an F cinema score, But I

602
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 3: want to see the cinema score on Stalker, just because

603
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: could you imagine an audience being led this far into

604
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: the movie. They get all the way up to the

605
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 3: anti chamber, within the anti chamber, ready to go into

606
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: the room, and don't they don't go in. I mean

607
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 3: that is that takes some uh hutsba yeast throwing it.

608
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: It just takes them not throwing.

609
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 4: Jeff Dyer, who has a little short documentary with this

610
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 4: on the Criterion Blue Array, points out you do actually

611
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 4: see the room just from the inside. There's the one

612
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 4: amazing shot of our three travelers after they decided not

613
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 4: to go into the room, is from the point of

614
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 4: view of the room. So make of that what you will.

615
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: Speaking of symbolism, I mean, is the room heaven essentially?

616
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: I mean, is the reason that they can't enter into

617
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: it because they have they haven't died yet. It's sort

618
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: of presented as the paradise where you get whatever you want.

619
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: And the one example we know of somebody who who

620
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: went in he got everything he wanted and then he

621
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: rejected it. But he also, you know, he I don't know.

622
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: I've been thinking of very biblical figures who uh, you know,

623
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: who overstepped, who trespassed, and who were punished for it,

624
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: like Lot's wife looking back. But in this case, it

625
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: just it seems to me that they're questing after this

626
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: spiritual truth and when they kind of turn their backs

627
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: on it and walk back, they're walking back to the world.

628
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: To me, it feels like they're rejecting death and deciding

629
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: to continue their ordinary lives at least for a little

630
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: while longer.

631
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I mean I think it's very notable that

632
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 5: the stalker doesn't enter the room himself and doesn't want to,

633
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 5: and is very focused on the altruistic aim of his mission,

634
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 5: you know. And yeah, like again like without going into

635
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 5: like one to one, you know, symbolism or allegory, like

636
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 5: I think the room equals death on some level, you know,

637
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 5: like what it offers cannot be attained by someone who

638
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 5: is living, but it's also possible.

639
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: It just they can't be obtained by somebody who hasn't

640
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: achieved a certain purity.

641
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 5: There's just there's a.

642
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: Very Dante's Inferno to the whole story to me of

643
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, they have this guide who's like leading them

644
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: through stage after stage after stage on this quest and

645
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: they kind of have to come out through the other sign.

646
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I don't know if this is

647
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: part of a has processed not, but there's also kind

648
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 4: a dallast thing where it's you know, this truth that

649
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 4: you can realize is not the real truth, Like the

650
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 4: actual the real truth of things remains unknowable in this

651
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 4: world and unattainable and that's, you know, recognizing that it's

652
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 4: kind of wisdom.

653
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: Well, another very important part of Buddhist wisdom is you

654
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: achieve happiness by giving up on desire. I guess before

655
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: we shut out, you mentioned the importance of the bar

656
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: in your keynote and kind of how that comes around

657
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: to being a significant setting. The bar always surprises me

658
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: when I rewatch this film because it doesn't look real.

659
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: To me, it looks like it looks so much like

660
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: early experiments in like all CGI sets where they filmed

661
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: people on blue screen and then just replaced everything. It's

662
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: completely flat, it's completely monochrome, and to me, it just

663
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: it looks like they're walking through a painting.

664
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned a painting, because I honestly

665
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 5: did not even clock that the opening scene before the

666
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 5: prologue was like of the bar, that we were looking

667
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 5: at the bar in that moment. And part of that

668
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 5: is due to some technical difficulties I had while trying

669
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 5: to chromcast this film to my television, where it made

670
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 5: everything bright green. So for I watched the first like

671
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 5: ten minutes of this film thinking that there was like

672
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 5: committed to like a very strong green and black colored scheme.

673
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 5: For realizing what was happening. But in watching it that way,

674
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 5: that opening, like I was like, this is am I

675
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 5: just looking at an expressionist painting like this, like very

676
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 5: heavy black and color. It looked abstract to me, Like

677
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 5: I didn't colock that I was looking at something. That

678
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 5: flatness you mentioned is part of that. Obviously part of

679
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 5: it is due to my technical difficulties. But then when

680
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 5: I rewatched it with the correct color and on a

681
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 5: better screen, it's still maintained that quality for me, that like,

682
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 5: it didn't occur to me that I was looking at

683
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 5: a set in that moment, and that carried through to

684
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 5: a certain extent to the opening scene in the bedroom,

685
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 5: like when you go through those perfectly symmetrical doors and

686
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 5: it's so composed and there's so much in that case,

687
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 5: there's so much texture that is revealed, like slowly revealed.

688
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think I think the colors can contribute

689
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 4: to sort of the unreal quality of it all as well.

690
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 4: Both Bar and The Stalker's House kind of made me think,

691
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 4: oh wait, I think I think David Lynch saw this

692
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 4: before constructing the Red Room and in the Black Lodge

693
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 4: and all that they sort of like very set like

694
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 4: just off reality kind of settings.

695
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, just on a technical note, I've seen the film

696
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 3: a couple of times. The first time I saw it

697
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 3: was in thirty five millimeters about twenty five years ago,

698
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: and it was on really the most brittle print I've

699
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 3: ever encountered. It was not in very good shape, and

700
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 3: it was one of those prints where the color was

701
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 3: washed out and almost sort of purplish in spots, which

702
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 3: a lot of those seventies prints tended to be because

703
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: seventies prints were not often on very good stock. And

704
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 3: so now is the right time to see Stalker, because

705
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: Stalker has been restored, it is on Criteria and film

706
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 3: Struck in other places like that. Those colors come through

707
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 3: so well in the contrast between certain settings of the film,

708
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: But between that, the monochrome of the bar and the

709
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 3: opening to the color that you get once you're in

710
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 3: the zone, all of that really pops in a way

711
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 3: that it hasn't in quite some time.

712
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 4: And that does not let Janet Maslin off the hook.

713
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: It is so crazy. What in the world? What in

714
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 3: the world.

715
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 4: Well, there's lots more to talk about. We haven't even

716
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 4: got into the sound design, which will probably we will

717
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 4: almost certainly return to when in the next episode where

718
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 4: we talk about Annihilation and what it shares with us,

719
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 4: including a very interesting sound design that's a tease for

720
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 4: the next episode. And there's more of this episode left,

721
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 4: and we'll be right back to get into feedback on

722
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 4: some recent episodes. And now it's time for feedback when

723
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 4: our listeners way in with their responses to recent episodes

724
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 4: and anything else in the world of film. First response

725
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 4: to our Creature from the Black Lagoon and the Shape

726
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 4: of Water episodes, Scott, would you like to read it?

727
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 3: Sure, Christopher writes, I just finished listening to this week's

728
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 3: episode on the Shape of Water and Creature from the

729
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 3: Black Lagoon. Just as a start off, I was happy

730
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 3: to hear the positive responses to Creature. I've always found

731
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 3: it an intriguing and deeper film that most people give

732
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 3: it credit for for many of the reasons that you discussed. However,

733
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 3: my main question has to do with the Shape of Water,

734
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 3: and it is a question that I actually intended to

735
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 3: write in about when you covered Three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri,

736
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 3: So please cast your mind back to that film as well.

737
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 3: Both of these films, in very different ways, offer commentary

738
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 3: on American culture or American identity. What effect, if any,

739
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 3: does the fact that these films are made by cultural

740
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 3: quote unquote outsiders have on the films themselves and how

741
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 3: they view American news. Also, if you decide to discuss

742
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 3: this on the show, feel free to expand out to

743
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 3: other films as well that maybe do not consider American

744
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 3: culture but are made by cultural outsiders, for example On

745
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 3: Lee's Since Insensibility or Brocrack Mountain or Witz Stillman's Love

746
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 3: and Friendship. Generally find that these films offer richer or

747
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 3: at least interestingly different view of the culture they examine

748
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 3: exactly because they are an outside of that culture. However,

749
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 3: I can also see potential problems with this in the

750
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 3: form of usually unintended misrepresentations or misunderstandings that can mar

751
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 3: film's aims well.

752
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: To start with, didn't we do a piece on this

753
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: back at the Evy Club about perspectives of America by

754
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 1: non Americans? I feel like it was maybe you and Nol.

755
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's it's always an obsession of mine.

756
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 3: I find it fascinating whenever, particularly when foreign filmmakers or

757
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 3: European filmmakers come to America and present what is what

758
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 3: their view of the country is, because it's always a

759
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 3: little bit off, But it's also a little bit on

760
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 3: in ways that we as people who live here maybe

761
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 3: take for granted or something like that, or don't don't.

762
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: We don't because we live here. We don't see things

763
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 3: clearly or we don't see things from that kind of

764
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: a perspective. So I find it always fascinating when when

765
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 3: the kind of cultures come together in that way.

766
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, can can we tell if it's a

767
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: little bit off? How do we know it's not just

768
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: our perspective. I think that the question about unintended misrepresentations

769
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: or misunderstandings is interesting. But I mean, American filmmakers can

770
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 1: misrepresent America and do all the time, either because they're

771
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: telling a story within the bounds of Hollywood, which has

772
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: all of these tropes that have nothing to do with

773
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: the way people actually live in America. Case in point,

774
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: you know a junior, you know, book publishing editor assistant

775
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: living in a gigantic New York apartment by herself. I

776
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: feel like America is like the elephant that the blind

777
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 1: men are trying to describe it. It's a big place

778
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: with a lot of very specific regional cultures, and it's

779
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: certainly possible for like a foreign filmmaker to look at

780
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: one and not represent the others. But it's just as

781
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: possible for an American to do that. So I wouldn't

782
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: worry so much about misrepresentations. I would just take the perspective,

783
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: the perspective of somebody like them vendors on specific American

784
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: subcultures is fascinating.

785
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, But I mean I think of these examples here,

786
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 3: you know, Three Billboards is I think certainly a case

787
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 3: where of a non American commenting and a little bit

788
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 3: of in a way that is a little off or

789
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 3: offbeat if you want to be kind about it, or

790
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: completely wrong headed if you want to be another way

791
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 3: about it. But I mean touch like having a Catholic

792
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 3: priests show up in a in you know, a small

793
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,919
Speaker 3: town Missouri and having him get sort of blasted by

794
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 3: Francis mcdorman's character. I mean, that is just an import

795
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 3: from McDonough and Irish playwright into this world in which

796
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: it really doesn't necessarily belong.

797
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: It's also, as we kind of talked about at the time,

798
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,959
Speaker 1: it's him bringing his personal obsession into a story where

799
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: it just really doesn't fit, But I mean, I don't know.

800
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: Like Gilliarmo del Toro's perspective on American politics as somebody

801
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: from a culture that is currently being so dis respected

802
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: in America is particularly interesting to me. Like, I feel

803
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: that his vision of at least the America of the

804
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, which is a very symbolic America in shape

805
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: of Water, is cartoony, but it's very consciously and deliberately cartoony,

806
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: and he's using that cartoon to comment on some of

807
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: the problems that he sees in present day America. So

808
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: he may be misrepresenting or simplifying what America is about,

809
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: but he's doing so very deliberately and from the perspective

810
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: of like a culturally disrespected outsider as opposed to somebody

811
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: who's trying to make an accurate and like letter perfect

812
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: observation about what America is.

813
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and plus well, in that case, though it's rooted

814
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: in history, it's rooted in movies. It's things that people

815
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 3: that don't live in America, and none of us lived

816
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: during America at that time, things that they have that

817
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 3: somebody like del Toro has access to and can recreate

818
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 3: in this context in a perfectly prominent way.

819
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 4: What about when it goes wrong? I mean I might

820
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 4: go to that is, even when it goes wrong, it's

821
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 4: kind of interesting. I thinking about My Blueberry Nights, the

822
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 4: one Carlwaii film, which is in many ways like any

823
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 4: other one Carl Waii film, but it's just it's just

824
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 4: so doesn't slip into the setting. He's where he's setting things.

825
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 4: If you if you know how things are in the

826
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 4: you know in the American South, well, big trumpets in Memphis,

827
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 4: and it's it's off in a way that makes the

828
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 4: film kind of not work but also kind of makes

829
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 4: it interesting.

830
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, definitely.

831
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 4: Also in the film Rumble in the Bronx, there are

832
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 4: mountains and behind the Bronx, and that is not accurate.

833
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 3: Yeah. Is that like the least persuasive New York ever

834
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: in movies? Yeah, it's pretty bad.

835
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: That's hilarious. Where was it shot Vancouver, I believe, I

836
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: mean Vancouver, the Bronx, it's all pretty much the same.

837
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, the focus serves really on the Rumble. So yeah,

838
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 4: it worked.

839
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: I just I really find it fascinating when people from

840
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: other countries do the exploratory version of this, which Vin

841
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: vendors has and Andrea Arnold's American Honey comes to mind

842
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: as a movie where somebody from another culture, in this

843
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: case from Britain, came to America and kind of went

844
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 1: kind of did the looking for America thing of Jack Kerouac,

845
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: you know, traveling around trying to find something real and specific,

846
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: and she put it into the film and she's not

847
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 1: trying to say this is America. She's showing us what

848
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: she's observed. And I think that that kind of outsider

849
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: perspective can really be powerful.

850
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 3: The road movie is like the perfect genre for that too,

851
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 3: of just you know, of being able to be a

852
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: little loose and specific and kind of explore the wide

853
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 3: openness of the country.

854
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 4: We also received some feva via Twitter when we mentioned

855
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 4: that we consider doing an episode on Black Panther but

856
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 4: couldn't find a great pairing for it, so we threw

857
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 4: it out the listeners. That's just what we could have

858
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 4: paired it with. Genevieve, as the organizer of this pole,

859
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 4: want to share some results.

860
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 5: Sure Topping the pole was Blade, presumably because they both

861
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 5: featured black Marvel superheroes. That was followed by suggestions for

862
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 5: the Lion King Shaft and coming to America. Other possibilities

863
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 5: that we got like one or two mentions of include

864
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 5: Spaces the Place, Sweet Sweetbacks, Badass Song, and the Wiz Whiz.

865
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 5: Someone also suggested cat people, which I think was probably

866
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 5: a joke.

867
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 3: But which cat people.

868
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 5: I don't know, but I assumed it was just.

869
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 3: You know.

870
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 5: We also got suggestions were like black Cougar and like

871
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 5: things were like very clearly just playing on the broad

872
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 5: concept of guy who dresses like a large cat. And interestingly,

873
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 5: no one suggested the film that we were considering pairing

874
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 5: Black Panther with before deciding there just wasn't enough there

875
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 5: that we wanted to get into, which is John Houston

876
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 5: is a man who would be king suggested by Todd Vanderwerf, your.

877
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 4: Current coworker, or all of our former co workers.

878
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, and I told him we were going to

879
00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 5: do it and then didn't tell him we are. So

880
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,959
Speaker 5: I'm so sorry you don't listen to this anyway. But yeah,

881
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 5: I don't know, did we miss an opportunity here, guys,

882
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 5: or do any of these suggestions really speak to you?

883
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: I feel like, I mean, what I really wanted was

884
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: to find some great sixties afrofuturist movie that I didn't

885
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: know about. Yeah, and like take that as an opportunity.

886
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: And there's so little afrofuturism, there's so much of it

887
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: in music and so little of it in cinema.

888
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,439
Speaker 4: Well you get it a space as the place, which

889
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 4: is the Sun Raw movie, which is pretty fascinating. I'm

890
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 4: not sure it's a strong enough connection to do a

891
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: whole episode around, but it does involve sun Raw descending

892
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 4: into Oakland on a spaceship, not unlike the opening of

893
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 4: this film, which which I think is you know, director

894
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 4: Ryan Kugler grew up in Oakland, so it's probably that.

895
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 4: But I also like to think that it's a little

896
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 4: bit of space as to play so much. But having

897
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 4: sort of the spacecraft descending into inner city Oakland, I.

898
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: Having not seen the movie, I can't really line up expectations.

899
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: The one thing on this that kind of gives me

900
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: an m interesting moment is Hancock, which is specifically about

901
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: a black superhero. It's not as caught up in identity

902
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: politics as Black Panther is. Like Black Panther is so

903
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: concerned with the state of black people around the world

904
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 1: and what responsibility the main character and the main villain

905
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: have to it, and there's there's a lot of like

906
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: political strife going on there, and Hancock doesn't really have

907
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: that depth. I'm not convinced it engages in anything like

908
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: the same way with its its characters like ethnicity or

909
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: his background or his connections to the world. But it

910
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: is sort of an interesting film. I just I feel

911
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: like Black Panther is so specific in form being yet

912
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: another Marvel movie that follows the Marvel pattern, and yet

913
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 1: so contemporary in its like the themes it's being allowed

914
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: to express that we don't see in cinema, Like where

915
00:46:58,600 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: do we find a match for that?

916
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's tough for two reasons, because one

917
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 4: is the historical scarcity of black heroes. I mean, I

918
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,720
Speaker 4: love Shaft, but beyond having both having been black heroes,

919
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 4: you know, it's a tough connection to make. The other

920
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 4: is I think for you know, it is a Marvel movie,

921
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 4: but I also feel like this is you know, it

922
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 4: is very James Bond like in the middle of it.

923
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 4: But I also feel this is a movie that's kind

924
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 4: of doing things I just don't have really seen in

925
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 4: a superhero movie or most like big Hollywood movies before.

926
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 4: I mean, like you say, the after futurism, the concern

927
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 4: with political things, the way it's kind of all kind

928
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 4: of gracefully matched to I really liked Black Panther, and

929
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 4: I would love to talk about on this show, but

930
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 4: it was just it was a tough, tough one to

931
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 4: fit into our format.

932
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: If we hadn't already done Iron Man as a pairing,

933
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: I would have probably suggested.

934
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 4: That the sort of a state of the Marvel hero

935
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:43,479
Speaker 4: kind of thing, not just.

936
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 1: That, but also like a Marvel hero who's questioning his

937
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: responsibilities in the world and questioning, you know, his personal

938
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: comfort and gain versus you know, what he owes other

939
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: people who are suffering because of his his inactivity, and

940
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: basically a challenge to his power from somebody like who

941
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: technically comes from within his own regime. I think there

942
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: are a lot of parallels there that we could have

943
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: picked out if we hadn't already done that movie in vast.

944
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 5: Detail, comparing it to the movie in which Black Panther

945
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 5: first appeared, Captain Erica Civil War. So we kind of did.

946
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: Because we should, I mean, we should sort of specify

947
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 1: that kind of the idea of the show is what

948
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: we films, the pairing film has to be we have

949
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: to go back at least what twenty years. Is that

950
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: what we settled on.

951
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, we've Yeah, we've definitely, yeah, and we did John

952
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 5: Carter of Mars, like we occasionally pick around.

953
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 4: Ros just John Carter.

954
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,479
Speaker 5: Oh sorry, sorry real quick. I do want to mention

955
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 5: that Coogler has mentioned a couple of reference points that

956
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 5: we also considered, specifically James Bond, and I actually think

957
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 5: a couple people suggested a couple of Bond movies as

958
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 5: well in our Twitter poll. But again that's just like

959
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 5: I definitely see where Kugler is coming from in his movie,

960
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 5: but like I can't think of a lot of you know,

961
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 5: direct connections as we put it between any Bond film

962
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 5: in this you know, you obviously have a Q figure

963
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 5: in Shurrey, Like that's a very strong connection, but beyond

964
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 5: that it gets trickier.

965
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, he we went back. One of the one of

966
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: the ways that we often get these pairings is to

967
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: look at interviews with the contemporary and his filmmaker and

968
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: see what they say inspired them. And in this case,

969
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: we went and looked at all those interviews and he

970
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,439
Speaker 1: didn't cite specific James Bond films, like he was talking

971
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: about no, no, no, none, None of the ones that

972
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 1: I looked at. He just sort of glossed over the

973
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: idea of a hero with a lot of gadgets.

974
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 4: Let's scrap this episode and going to gold go.

975
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 3: Thing they mentioned He mentioned Goldfinger to to slash film Goldfinger.

976
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 5: At some point I saw that there's a new Bond

977
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 5: film coming out eventually.

978
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 3: He also Coogler frequently mentions a prophet then being his

979
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 3: favorite IT film of all time and something that he

980
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,760
Speaker 3: returns too often when he is making movies.

981
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 4: So great movie.

982
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a fantastic movie. And there it might have

983
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,280
Speaker 1: been interesting to kind of chart the rise of the protagonist,

984
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: kind of like fighting his way up through life with

985
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 1: Eric Kilmonger's background and the way he kind of has

986
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: to fight his way.

987
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

988
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 3: I mean, if it were kill Monger's story, then then

989
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 3: it would be a better pairing with a profit than

990
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 3: it is currently.

991
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 5: To a lot of people. It is kill Monger's story,

992
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 5: you'll just have to imagine all those great episodes that

993
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 5: could have been because.

994
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 3: We're not doing that. We're moving forward.

995
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 4: Okay, Well that wraps up our feedback for this episode.

996
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 4: We always appreciate when our listeners share their thoughts, their recommendations,

997
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 4: and their philosophical monologues. To reach us, you can leave

998
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 4: a short voicemail at seven seven three two three four

999
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 4: nine seven three zero, or email us at comments at

1000
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 4: Next Picture Show dot net. We may feature a response

1001
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 4: on a future episode or post on Facebook for discussion.

1002
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 4: That's it this episode of the Next Picture Show. In

1003
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 4: part two, we'll bring in Annihilation and talk about what

1004
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 4: it borrows from Stalker, what it discards, and the way

1005
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 4: it forges its own path through mysterious terrain. Look for

1006
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 4: that later this week, or, better yet, subscribe to the

1007
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 4: Next Picture Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your podcast

1008
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,479
Speaker 4: of choice. Find us at next Pictureshow dot net, follow

1009
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 4: us at Facebook dot com, slash Next Picture Show, and

1010
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 4: follow us on Twitter at at Next Picture Pod so

1011
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 4: you always know what a new episode drops.