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Speaker 1: And you're here.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for choosing the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost Day

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Speaker 2: and Paranormal Podcast Network. Your quest for podcasts of the paranormal, supernatural,

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Speaker 2: and the unexplained ends here. They invite you to enjoy

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Speaker 2: all our shows we have on this network, and right now,

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Speaker 2: let's start with Chase of the Afterlife with Sandra Champlain.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and

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Speaker 3: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions

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Speaker 3: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast

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Speaker 3: to Coast AM employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors

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Speaker 3: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do

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Speaker 3: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself. Hi,

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Speaker 3: I'm Sandra Champlain. For over twenty five years, I've been

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Speaker 3: on a journey to prove the existence of life after death.

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Speaker 3: On each episode, will discuss the reasons we now know

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Speaker 3: that our loved ones have survived physical death and so

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Speaker 3: will we. Welcome to Shades of the Afterlife. What if

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Speaker 3: I told you there was a grief therapy that could

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Speaker 3: greatly reduce the pain of your grief In only two

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Speaker 3: ninety minute reasonably priced sessions with a licensed therapist that

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Speaker 3: you could do in person or you could do on zoom.

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Speaker 3: And what if I told you that seventy five percent

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Speaker 3: of people here feel or see their deceased loved ones

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Speaker 3: during that process. Today you'll hear from award winning clinical

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Speaker 3: psychologist doctor Tom Nemi, whose innovative work has reached more

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Speaker 3: than fifty thousand people worldwide now believe it or not,

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Speaker 3: Doctor Tom first heard about induced after death communication therapy

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Speaker 3: on one of my earliest podcast episodes. He's the author

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Speaker 3: of the brand new book in spa Fired Life, Beautiful Death,

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Speaker 3: Healing Grief, Overcoming fear of death and living a Spiritual life.

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Speaker 3: His journey is fascinating and I know you'll love to

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Speaker 3: hear his words today. You can find out more on

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Speaker 3: his website, Healing Grief with IADC dot com. Here's doctor

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Speaker 3: Tom Neimi from Adelaide, Australia.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Sandra. I've been so looking forward to this

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Speaker 1: and I've already said I'm a big fan. I've been

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Speaker 1: listening to your show for years and to now be

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Speaker 1: on your show is very exciting for me. I'm in

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Speaker 1: the Adelaide Hills of South Australia. That's where I live

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Speaker 1: and work. It's a lovely part of the world. So Sandra,

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Speaker 1: I was a curious child and I grew up had

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Speaker 1: a what I would call a reasonably normal kind of childhood.

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Speaker 1: People are very interested in the fact that I'm a triplet.

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Speaker 1: I have two brothers the same age. People find that

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Speaker 1: a little bit unusual, but it's normal for me life.

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Speaker 1: Growing up, I had a loving family. I was always

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Speaker 1: curious about the world around me, and I suppose that's

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Speaker 1: part of what led me down this path of thinking

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Speaker 1: about the afterlife and ending up as a psychologist and

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Speaker 1: ending up as an IDC therapist, which we'll get into

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Speaker 1: a due course, But for me, one of the early

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Speaker 1: parts of me going down this path was I developed

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Speaker 1: a bit of a fear of death. I remember being

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Speaker 1: at seven or eight and I realized for the first

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Speaker 1: time that everyone dies, and this was a little bit

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Speaker 1: concerning to me. I was just still figuring out the world,

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Speaker 1: but it made me feel really nervous. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what it meant. And one day I was talking to

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Speaker 1: my grandmother. I was very very close to my nana,

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Speaker 1: and I remember this distinctly. I was eight years old.

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Speaker 1: She was putting some washing into our washing machine, and

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Speaker 1: she would visit our house all the time, and her

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Speaker 1: thing was she'd always do the washing to help my

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Speaker 1: mum out. And I was contemplating death and I was

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Speaker 1: feeling anxious, so I said to Nana, Nana, what happens

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Speaker 1: when we die? And she got this kind of look

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Speaker 1: at her face, like, oh, okay. She sort of then

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Speaker 1: thought about it for a moment, and then she went

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Speaker 1: back to just putting the washing into the washing machine

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Speaker 1: and she said, Tommy dear, it's just like going to sleep,

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Speaker 1: but you don't wake up. And this was Nana's attempt

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Speaker 1: to kind of comfort me. I suppose to just give

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Speaker 1: me a concise answer that my eight year old brain

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Speaker 1: could accept, but it didn't really comfort me. I thought,

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Speaker 1: what would that be like to go to sleep and

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Speaker 1: not wake up? And it just didn't fit right for me,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, well, does that mean everyone else I

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Speaker 1: know is just going to go to sleep and not

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Speaker 1: wake up? And what would that feel like? And it

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Speaker 1: really just made me more anxious, But it started me

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Speaker 1: asking more questions because I didn't intuitively feel that that

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Speaker 1: was the right answer. But over time, as I got older,

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Speaker 1: I would ask my parents to take me to metaphysical bookstores.

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Speaker 1: And this was pre the Internet and Amazon or whatever.

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Speaker 1: So I begged my mum to drive me to a

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Speaker 1: metaphysical bookstore so I could buy books and learn more.

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Speaker 1: And it was this gradual kind of awakening to different ideas,

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Speaker 1: different possibilities, even the idea that there is such a

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Speaker 1: thing as life after death, which I have to say

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Speaker 1: resonated with my soul on some level even as a child.

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Speaker 1: It also made me open to different experiences. So I

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Speaker 1: remember falling asleep as a kid and feeling energy running

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Speaker 1: through my body. I remember feeling comforted, almost like having

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Speaker 1: hands placed on my body, really comforting energy going into

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Speaker 1: my body as I fell asleep. I certainly wasn't one

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Speaker 1: of these people. And I know you've had some guests

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Speaker 1: who say, well, I was born with great intuition or

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Speaker 1: I always was so connected to tell us I I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm a regular kind of person. But eventually

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Speaker 1: I developed a few experiences and a few little intuitions

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Speaker 1: that were evidence for me that there is life after death.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, one of those was directly relating to

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Speaker 1: my manner. She took care of me, She was really

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Speaker 1: my best friend growing up. She was just a very

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Speaker 1: very special person in my life. But as I got older,

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Speaker 1: I realized our connection went beyond just a loving family connection.

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Speaker 1: I would get this feeling whenever something was wrong with her.

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Speaker 1: At first I had no idea what this meant. One

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Speaker 1: example was I was driving home from university I just

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Speaker 1: started studying psychology, and I had this incredible feeling that

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Speaker 1: I needed to go to Nana. I had seen her

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Speaker 1: fairly recently. She seemed fine, but it was like an itch,

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Speaker 1: do you have to scratch? I had to go to her.

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Speaker 1: And as I arrived at Nana's house, she greeted me cheerfully,

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Speaker 1: as she always did. I went inside and I thought,

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Speaker 1: I she seems fine. What was I worried about? But

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Speaker 1: when I sat down, I smelled gas. I smelled the

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Speaker 1: overwhelming odor of lots of gas in the room. And

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Speaker 1: she had turned on her guess Berno to cook something

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Speaker 1: and not lit it. And if I hadn't got there,

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Speaker 1: I hate to think what would have happened. So some

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Speaker 1: of these early experiences of my otherwise regular childhood really

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Speaker 1: got me curious about what it all means. A few

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Speaker 1: of those intuitions were also just starting to get me

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Speaker 1: attuned to this possibility that there is an afterlife, there

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Speaker 1: is a spiritual world, and this is something that one

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Speaker 1: day I might want to pursue. And it's actually funny, Sandra,

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Speaker 1: because my spiritual thinking and beliefs were very personal to me,

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Speaker 1: and I kept them kind of a little to the side.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't something I would always talk to people about.

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Speaker 1: And I think many of your listeners might be in

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Speaker 1: the same boat, you know, for a long time, death

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Speaker 1: and the afterlife. Well, it's kind of still a taboo,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. It's something we don't often talk about. But

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Speaker 1: I ended up in psychology because my first choice of

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Speaker 1: profession didn't work out. I actually wanted to be a

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Speaker 1: racing driver, and I had a deal with my parents

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Speaker 1: that I was going to do my darndest to try

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Speaker 1: to be a professional racing driver, but if it didn't

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Speaker 1: work out, my plan be was I had to go

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Speaker 1: to university and I had to study something. This was

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Speaker 1: the deal I made with my parents, and I spent

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Speaker 1: a year after high school trying to find sponsorship, testing

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Speaker 1: race cars, really trying to have a good go of it.

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Speaker 1: And I know you've been a cook for race teams,

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Speaker 1: and you've done a lot of cheffing for race drivers

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Speaker 1: over the years, so it's a funny connection there. But unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: at the time, I was devastated my dream wasn't going

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Speaker 1: to come true. I didn't become a race car driver,

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Speaker 1: and that's what led me down the path of psychology.

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Speaker 1: So I studied psychology. I became a clinical psychologist, and

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Speaker 1: for many years I was doing what you'd call regular

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Speaker 1: psychological work. I was a therapist. I was helping people

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Speaker 1: with their anxiety and depression. Very interested in this side

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Speaker 1: of us that is spiritual in nature, but keeping that

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Speaker 1: kind of separate. All of that changed though. When I

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Speaker 1: was walking my dog, I was listening to an interview

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Speaker 1: with doctor Alan Botkin, and of course, doctor Alan Botkins,

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Speaker 1: many of your listeners may be aware, was the founder

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Speaker 1: of induced after death communication therapy, this amazing therapy that

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Speaker 1: was derived out of what is now a standard approach

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Speaker 1: to trauma called EMDR eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. When

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Speaker 1: I was doing my clinical training twenty years ago, people

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Speaker 1: thought EMDR was pretty weird. Oh, you move your eyes

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Speaker 1: back and forth and you feel better, and academics would

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Speaker 1: sometimes laugh at it a little bit, but it's now

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Speaker 1: the gold standard therapy for post traumatic stress disorder. It's

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Speaker 1: quite amazing. Well, Alan Bodkin I heard him talking about

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Speaker 1: being an early adopter of EMDR but working in a

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Speaker 1: Veterans Administration hospital with war veterans who were experiencing trauma.

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Speaker 1: But he adapted this standard EMDR protocol for dealing with

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Speaker 1: grief and loss because many of these traumas that these

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Speaker 1: veterans had been through involved loss. They involved death, either

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Speaker 1: combatants or their colleagues and comrades in a war zone.

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Speaker 1: And so he said, at the heart of these traumas

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Speaker 1: is loss, and he started focusing instead of just doing

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Speaker 1: aspects of the trauma that were fearful in the standard

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Speaker 1: kind of EMDR way, he would focus on sadness. And

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Speaker 1: he found that if he focused on sadness, the anger,

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Speaker 1: the fear of the guilt, all these other peripheral emotions

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Speaker 1: would just resolve, and it worked faster, it was more effective.

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Speaker 1: One day, he was doing this what he called core

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Speaker 1: focus to MDR with a patient and the patient spontaneously

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Speaker 1: reported that they saw the deceased person and they had

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Speaker 1: this really comforting message. And this patient who was hospitalized

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Speaker 1: because their post traumatic stress was so severe, recovered very

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Speaker 1: quickly and almost to a degree that doctor Botkin thought

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Speaker 1: was impossible. So when I heard you interviewing him, and

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Speaker 1: I subsequently read his book and I learned more about this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, at first it sounded too good to be true,

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Speaker 1: but this was the first time that my twin passions

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Speaker 1: of psychology when spirituality came together. I thought, well, if

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Speaker 1: this is true and it's not too good to be true,

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Speaker 1: and it can help people, then I simply must pursue this.

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Speaker 1: And so I thank you for that opportunity to learn

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Speaker 1: about that work because it was a pivotal turning point

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Speaker 1: in my life. I did my training in EMDR solely

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Speaker 1: for the purpose of hopefully becoming an IDC therapist. The

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Speaker 1: EMDR training was for people who are already registered mental

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Speaker 1: health professionals. It's like a three day long weekend intensive

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Speaker 1: training to get the level one EMDR. So I did

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Speaker 1: that just prior to COVID because I knew it was

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Speaker 1: a prerequisite to doing IADC. And then I had to

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Speaker 1: put everyone pause. I actually had this turns out erroneous

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Speaker 1: belief that I would need to fly to the States

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Speaker 1: in order to be trained in IDC. I later learned

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Speaker 1: that wasn't true. But I was kind of biding my

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Speaker 1: time until I'd be able to fly and pursue this.

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Speaker 1: But then actually something happened that really spurred me along

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Speaker 1: and got me to kick in to gear and find

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Speaker 1: out that I could be trained online. I watched the

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Speaker 1: movie Life with Ghosts by Stephen Berkeley, featuring Jan Holden

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Speaker 1: and Alan Botkin and Graham Maxi, and the fabulous documentary

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Speaker 1: that I know you've had on your show before. When

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Speaker 1: I watched this, it was like it pushed a button

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Speaker 1: in me. He was like, no, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: wait any longer. If I have to fly to Chicago

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Speaker 1: or fly to Chicago, I'll do whatever it takes. And

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Speaker 1: then and there I emailed Alan Botkin and I said

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Speaker 1: I'm ready, Please tell me how I can be trained.

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Speaker 1: He wrote back and said he had just retired, but

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Speaker 1: I could train with Cessa Valdez in Michigan, who's one

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Speaker 1: of his IDC protegeatees. Only a month or so later,

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Speaker 1: I was trained. We did it over a couple of

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Speaker 1: days from Australia. We broke it up a little bit.

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Speaker 1: It's fairly intense, but then this was a certificate training

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Speaker 1: allowing me to start being an IADC practitioner.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back with more. You're listening to Shades

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Speaker 3: of the Afterlife on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast

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Speaker 3: AM Parinormal Podcast Network. Welcome back to Shades of the Afterlife.

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Speaker 3: I'm Sandra Champlain and we're here with clinical psychologist doctor

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Speaker 3: Tom Nemi, author of the book Inspired Life, Beautiful Death.

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Speaker 3: He was just saying that he completed his course in

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Speaker 3: IADC therapy, which stands for induced after death Communication. Let's continue.

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Speaker 1: This was really the turning point. This was when I

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Speaker 1: started to pursue it. I started to help people in

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Speaker 1: grief using the IDC therapy protocol. It's worth saying that

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Speaker 1: I didn't think this was that far fetched because I

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Speaker 1: had actually had after death communications of my own. This

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Speaker 1: really ties into the relationship with Nana, because after Nana

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Speaker 1: passed away. She was eighty four when she died, and

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Speaker 1: it was sad, but she had had a full life.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we were so close, my Nana and I.

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Speaker 1: She was really this unconditionally loving person. It didn't matter

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Speaker 1: when I was young how much I stuffed up or

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Speaker 1: what I did. She always just loved me and spoiled me,

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Speaker 1: and so I remember thinking, if there is something out there,

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Speaker 1: if there is life after death, surely I'm going to

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Speaker 1: hear from my Nana. Well, months went by and there

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Speaker 1: was nothing. It made me question things, is this actually real?

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Speaker 1: But then it was eighteen months or two years after

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Speaker 1: she had died, and one morning I was coming out

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Speaker 1: of sleep. It was definitely not a dream, but I

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Speaker 1: saw her, and I saw her in full color, high definition.

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Speaker 1: I don't know where I was. My eyes were closed,

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Speaker 1: but Nana was there, and she looked about sixty years old,

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Speaker 1: she was younger. She had her urban curls, her blue

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Speaker 1: eyes and this bright red lipstick on it, and she

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Speaker 1: was smiling at me, and I had this absolute feeling

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Speaker 1: of love wash over me. I still get tingles when

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Speaker 1: I talk about it. I felt she was there. I

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Speaker 1: knew she was there. It only lasted a moment. And

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Speaker 1: when I opened my eyes and I was in bed

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Speaker 1: and it was morning, there were tears soaking the pillow.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize I was crying, but it was just

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Speaker 1: obviously such an emotional thing to see Nana, and I

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Speaker 1: mentally said to her nanny, you look so good, you

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Speaker 1: seem so well. And she didn't say anything back, she

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Speaker 1: was just smiling. But this was an incredibly healing thing.

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Speaker 1: I thought, Wow, she is okay. I knew she was

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Speaker 1: okay because it wasn't a dream. I felt her presence.

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Speaker 1: You know that feeling when there's someone in the room

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Speaker 1: and you feel their presence. It's not a image, it's

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Speaker 1: actually something happening, right and now. Actually I had a

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Speaker 1: couple more experiences with her at critical junctures things were

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Speaker 1: going on in my life, and she was there again.

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Speaker 1: And then it happened again when my mum's dad passed away,

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Speaker 1: my grandpa, the same thing. Coming out of sleep, I

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Speaker 1: saw him. He looked about thirty years old and again

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Speaker 1: incredibly comforting. It wasn't a dream. And it happened a

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Speaker 1: third time, Sandra, it happened when my mum's mom passed

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Speaker 1: away just a few years ago at the age of

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Speaker 1: one hundred and three. My nanny had an incredible life

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Speaker 1: of good health and good fortune, and I hope I

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Speaker 1: got some of those genes, but igin it. That time,

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Speaker 1: it was about a week after she passed away. I

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Speaker 1: saw her, and this time she hugged me. Some people

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Speaker 1: have ADC's and they hear things or they see things.

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Speaker 1: I actually felt her embrace and she was so happy.

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Speaker 1: She was like she wanted me to know she was

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Speaker 1: happy and well. And again, this was just the most

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Speaker 1: comforting thing. So when I started exploring induce staff to

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Speaker 1: death communication as a therapy, I didn't need to be

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Speaker 1: convinced that ADCs exist, and in fact, they're extremely common,

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Speaker 1: extremely common. The most conservative estimates are that about thirty

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Speaker 1: percent of people will have had an after death communication,

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Speaker 1: and there's some research that says it's much higher than that.

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Speaker 1: So I'd had this button pushed inside of me. I'd

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Speaker 1: seen life with ghost I knew ADC's were real, and

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Speaker 1: I thought, this is part of my purpose. I need

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Speaker 1: to now pursue this. So that was really the beginning

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Speaker 1: of me becoming a grief therapist. And if someone had

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Speaker 1: said to me fifteen years ago, oh, Tom, you're going

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Speaker 1: to end up a grief therapist, I'd say, jump in

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Speaker 1: the lake. There's no way that's going to happen. Because

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Speaker 1: the truth is I was a scaredy cat of grief.

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Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I could help grieving people. I

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Speaker 1: felt helpless in the face of grief. So this is

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Speaker 1: a bit of a confession, really, because you think of therapists,

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Speaker 1: they've always got these tools to help their clients, right,

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Speaker 1: And if someone came to me with anxiety, if they

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Speaker 1: came to me with depression, I had tools. But when

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Speaker 1: people came to me and they're in deep grief, I

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Speaker 1: felt helpless. I was willing to sit with them, I

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Speaker 1: was willing to try to help them deal with their emotions,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't think I could fix anything. I couldn't

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Speaker 1: make a substantive difference to their sadness. And this is

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Speaker 1: the breakthrough that IDC is, because it dramatically reduces people's

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Speaker 1: sadness after somebody has died. I see it as a

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Speaker 1: breakthrough in psychotherapy, in fact, because part of now becoming

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Speaker 1: a grief therapist, and I have other psychological work that

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Speaker 1: I do, But part of what led me down this

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Speaker 1: path is I wanted to contribute to the scientific acceptance

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Speaker 1: of IDC therapy. It would be too easy for mainstream

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Speaker 1: scientists to say this sounds weird or to be dismissive

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Speaker 1: of it because it seems different, but it's very healing

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Speaker 1: and very natural. In fact, I see it as an

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Speaker 1: ethical obligation. You know, if a health practitioner comes across

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Speaker 1: something that can help people better than anything else to date,

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Speaker 1: we have a moral obligation to pursue that and to

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Speaker 1: disseminate that. So I, along with my colleague John Daniels

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Speaker 1: from Queensland here in Australia and I'm a visiting research

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Speaker 1: fellow at the University of Adelaide, we conducted a controlled

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Speaker 1: trial of IDC therapy. I wanted to be able to

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Speaker 1: put forward some research evidence with scientific credibility into hopefully

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Speaker 1: what we'll publish it in a mainstream scientific journal, to

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Speaker 1: help therapist realize, regardless of your beliefs about the afterlife,

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Speaker 1: this is very likely to be healing for people in grief,

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Speaker 1: and we have an ethical obligation to make it available

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Speaker 1: to people. It's not suitable for everyone, but for those

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Speaker 1: for whom it is suitable, we really need to put

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Speaker 1: this to them as an option because a lot of

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Speaker 1: people can benefit. And we saw forty three people in

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Speaker 1: this study. We had a one month control baseline period,

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Speaker 1: so we measured their grief at time one, we didn't

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Speaker 1: do anything for a month, we measured it again and

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Speaker 1: then we gave them these two ninety minute sessions. So

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Speaker 1: the IDC therapy protocol is incredibly brief. Two ninety minute

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Speaker 1: sessions is really the entirety of the intervention. And then

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Speaker 1: we measured their grief symptoms and their sadness a month later. Well,

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Speaker 1: what we found was that over the baseline period their

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Speaker 1: grief didn't change. We gave them these two sessions, and

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Speaker 1: then their sadness and their grief symptoms were significantly lower

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Speaker 1: a month later. And in fact, to put this into

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Speaker 1: terms that are kind of translating this science, we talk

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Speaker 1: about something called effect sizes in therapy research. It's like

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Speaker 1: a degree of the strength of the impact. Well, we

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Speaker 1: affect sizes that reduction in grief symptoms, reduction in sadness

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Speaker 1: is greater than almost two times greater in some cases

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Speaker 1: then your typical psychological therapies like cognitive behavior therapy for

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Speaker 1: anxiety and depression, and they might be doing it in ten,

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Speaker 1: twelve twenty sessions. We're doing it in two. That's how

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Speaker 1: strong this is. So the world needs to know about it.

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Speaker 3: That's incredible, and each and every one of us who

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Speaker 3: has grieved the death of a loved one knows that

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Speaker 3: grief is the most painful thing that we go through.

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Speaker 3: I remember after my dad died, it felt like four

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Speaker 3: years before a dark cloud lifted from me. Even believing

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Speaker 3: in the afterlife, there's still sadness that you miss the person. Now,

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Speaker 3: you see, the therapy is not for everybody. Can you

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Speaker 3: just talk a little bit more about that, because I

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Speaker 3: know there's people that want to go see a medium.

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Speaker 3: This is way different. This is focusing on healing grief

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Speaker 3: and sadness and having a loved one come through. Shall

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Speaker 3: I say a side effect, something wonderful that happens, but

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Speaker 3: the main thrust really is for grief and sadness.

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Speaker 1: Correct, that's right, That's exactly right. And so we find

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Speaker 1: that this does affect people in different ways than seeing

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Speaker 1: a medium. Now, if people want to see mediums, that's

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Speaker 1: absolutely fine, and for some people that's going to be

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Speaker 1: very healing. But I think that IDC offers something different

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Speaker 1: and potentially more effective because what we do is target

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Speaker 1: the sadness and literally where that emotion is stored in

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Speaker 1: the brain by having people feel their sadness. And the

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Speaker 1: reason it's not suitable perhaps for everybody, is because it

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Speaker 1: can be a very intense therapy. We help reduce sadness

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Speaker 1: by applying what we call bilateral stimulation. We stimulate both

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Speaker 1: hemispheres of the brain alternately, and we can do that

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Speaker 1: through eye movement, having somebody follow your fingers from left

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Speaker 1: to right, or tapping alternately their shoulders, or the therapist

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Speaker 1: can lean in and tap the person's hands alternately left, right, left, right.

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Speaker 1: This is a healing mode that our brains have. It's

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Speaker 1: a very natural healing mode and one of the theories

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Speaker 1: around how it works is that when we sleep, we

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Speaker 1: go through a stage called rem rapid eye movement, where

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Speaker 1: our eyes naturally dart back and forth, and this seems

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Speaker 1: to be associated with processing of stored emotion healing. It's

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we feel better after we've slept.

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Speaker 1: It's not just that we're not tired anymore, so that

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Speaker 1: our brain has done this emotional processing work well. We

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Speaker 1: can put our brains into that healing state, that special

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Speaker 1: mode while we're awake by using bilateral stimulation. And what

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Speaker 1: idic therapy does is it has people experience bilateral stimulation

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Speaker 1: while they're feeling the most strong sadness that they can access.

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Speaker 1: So we will say to people what is the most

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Speaker 1: sad part of this person dying. And for some people

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Speaker 1: it's a really intense traumatic memory. It might be when

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Speaker 1: I got the phone call that they'd died, or for somebody,

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Speaker 1: it might be when the coffin was lowered into the ground. Also,

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Speaker 1: this sadness can be really general things I miss him

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Speaker 1: or she won't be there to see our daughter graduate,

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Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be. And we require people

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Speaker 1: to be willing to fully feel their emotions. We need

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Speaker 1: them to be able to step into that full burn

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Speaker 1: of that intensity, and then we apply this eye movement

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Speaker 1: or tapping, and it's by doing that through successive sets

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Speaker 1: of bilateral stimulation, might be one to two minutes at

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Speaker 1: a time, we notice that the sadness gradually increases. And

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Speaker 1: as doctor Botkin says, once we start, we don't stop.

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Speaker 1: If you were driving through a dark tunnel and you

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Speaker 1: felt uncomfortable, you wouldn't stop your car and get out.

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Speaker 1: You put your foot on the gas, right, And so

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Speaker 1: we say to people, you've got to keep your foot

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Speaker 1: on the gas. The therapist does the steering, but you've

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Speaker 1: got to put your foot on the gas. So it

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Speaker 1: is intense. It requires a willingness to feel that intensity

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Speaker 1: and an ability to really access those emotions. Now, this

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Speaker 1: is challenging sometimes because of course, grieving people spend every

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Speaker 1: day managing their emotions. They've got to go to work,

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Speaker 1: they go to the shops. They deal with trying to

431
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: function in their life, so they're used to pushing it

432
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: down or managing in some way.

433
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: It's time for a quick break and we'll be right back.

434
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 3: You'll discover some interesting stories from induced after death communication therapy.

435
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 3: You're listening to Shades of the Afterlife on the iHeartRadio

436
00:25:39,280 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 3: and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network. Welcome back

437
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 3: to Sheads of the Afterlife. I'm Sandra Champlain. Let's continue

438
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 3: with doctor Tom Nemi and induced after death Communication therapy.

439
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 1: It is intense. It requires a willingness to feel that

440
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: intensity and an ability to really access those emotions. Now,

441
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: this is challenging sometimes because of course, grieving people spend

442
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: every day managing their emotions. They've got to go to work,

443
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: they go to the shops. They deal with trying to

444
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 1: function in their life, so they're used to pushing it

445
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: down or managing it in some way. But when we

446
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: have a client sit in front of us in ITDC.

447
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: We say, I don't want you to manage it, I

448
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: don't want you to push it down. I want you

449
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: to feel it. So it can be quite an intense therapy,

450
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: and we always screen people to make sure that they're

451
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: willing to fully access it. And of course the good

452
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 1: news is this is such a rapidly acting therapy that

453
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: we see people sadness no matter how intense it is,

454
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: even if they say it's ten out of ten and

455
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: they're very distressed, we see eventually that sadness reducing. People

456
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: start saying I feel peaceful, I feel calm. I mean,

457
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: this is incredible. I wouldn't expect with any other therapy

458
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: to have a client on the start of their first

459
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: appointment so distressed that it's ten out of ten in intensity,

460
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: and at the end of the second appointment say it's

461
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: zero or it's a one, or I'm feeling good. And

462
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: that's what we notice. That's why this is so remarkable.

463
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: And the cherry on top is maybe about three quarters

464
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: of people will say they perceive the presence of their

465
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 1: loved one in some way, three quarters of the people,

466
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 1: three quarters.

467
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 3: That's amazing. Do I need to see a therapist in

468
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 3: person or can any of this be done via zoom?

469
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: Well, this was precisely one of the research questions we

470
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,239
Speaker 1: had in our University of Adelaide's study. We did a

471
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: bunch of these sessions over zoom, we did a bunch

472
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: of them in person, and we analyze the data to

473
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: see is there any difference. And the good news is

474
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: there was basically no difference. So people can tune in

475
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: from anywhere in the world literally over zoomed from the

476
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: comfort of their own home, and they can expect to

477
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: have a very similar level of effectiveness as if you

478
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:18,360
Speaker 1: were in the room with the therapist.

479
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 3: That is beyond good news. And yes, you have a

480
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: moral responsibility to share this as far as you can,

481
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 3: and I will help you as best as I can.

482
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: Could you talk about some of the experiences people have.

483
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 3: Do they literally feel the presence? Do they get a

484
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 3: visual sometimes hear a voice? Sometimes? What kind of things

485
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: could happen?

486
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: This is the part that people are very intrigued about,

487
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: and it's fascinating. It's worth mentioning that if people are

488
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: in that quarter where they don't have an ADC, that's

489
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: not a problem. I mean, generally, our objective is to

490
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: reduce sadness, and it's well over ninety percent of people.

491
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: We're reducing sadness. So if people don't have an ADC,

492
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: sometimes they'll be a bit disappointed. But I try to

493
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: downplay the likelihood of that because when people are yearning

494
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: for it and they're grasping for it and they're just

495
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: so focused on that, it gets in the way of

496
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: reducing the sadness. And I always say to people, our

497
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: job number one is to help you to feel better

498
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: and to feel less sad so that you can function

499
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: in your life, to give you some peace and acceptance.

500
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: And if we do that, we've succeeded. If you have

501
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: an ABC, it's a cherry on top, it's a bonus.

502
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: So we see a whole range of different experiences. It

503
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: can range from quite subtle to very elaborate and intense.

504
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: It can access a whole range of sensory modalities. For

505
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: some people it's visual. They'll say, I'm just seeing this

506
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: scene play out in my mind's eye. I've written about

507
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: nine of these case studies in my book. If people

508
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: want to read them in detail, so we go to

509
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: a lot of detail, and I've got permission from those

510
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: people to share their stories and I've given them pseudonyms.

511
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: One client who are refer is Sheena. In the book,

512
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: her son had died. They thought it was probably from

513
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: a drug overdose. And there are a lot of traumas

514
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: that had happened in his life and her life, trying

515
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: to keep him safe from drugs and crime and all

516
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: sorts of things. But one of her questions was she

517
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: wanted to know is he alone or is he there

518
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: with other people? Is he loved? And she asked this

519
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: question at the point that her sadness was already reducing.

520
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: She was reporting that she felt an atmosphere change in

521
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: the room. She just spontaneously said, I'm feeling there's like

522
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,239
Speaker 1: an energy in the room. There's an atmosphere here. And

523
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: she said, I feel like someone's just tapped me on

524
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: the leg. I feel like someone just put the hand

525
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: on my shoulder. She was getting these sensory tactile phenomena,

526
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: which is not unusual, doesn't happen for everyone. And then

527
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: she asked that question, is he there with someone else?

528
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: Is he loved? Does he have company where he is?

529
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: She closed her eyes after we did some more bilateral stimulation,

530
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: and she saw a vision of her son quite clearly

531
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: on a grass verge, surrounded by other people. So his

532
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: best friend was there who had died, and she described

533
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: that he waved his arm around as if to say, look,

534
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: of course, I'm not alone. I've got all these people

535
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: with me. And she described this movement that he made.

536
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: But not only that, in that moment she saw the

537
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: dog who had died, the auntie had died. She said,

538
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: I'm seeing all of these people who have passed, and

539
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: they're looking younger, and he's smiling at me. So, you know,

540
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: for her, this was her ADC and it was so reassuring.

541
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: It answered her question perfectly that he wasn't alone, and

542
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: he was loved and he was very content, and he

543
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: wanted her to know that. We see a whole range

544
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: of these experiences. I had one young lady whose grandmother

545
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: had passed, and she had almost every sensory experience you

546
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: can imagine. She said, I feel like I've just been hugged.

547
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: She said, I can hear her, I can smell something,

548
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: I can see her. This is not typical, but she

549
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: had all these different types of ADC elements very much

550
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: in her two sessions. So yeah, it's quite a range

551
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: of phenomena. That we observe and we don't impose any

552
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: interpretation on people. I always so, what does it mean

553
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: to you that you just noticed this, And in particular,

554
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: how does it feel. IDC is a very emotion driven therapy,

555
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: and when people are having that experience, they say, I

556
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: feel incredible peace or incredible love, or I now feel

557
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: very accepting of this. That's part of why it's life changing.

558
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: It just adds to the therapeutic effect.

559
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: There is something tom to go from a belief to

560
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 3: a knowing. So to have that experience with your loved one,

561
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: you can start living your life again knowing that they're okay.

562
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: And that's what people say. They say, I was waking

563
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: up every day thinking, oh gosh, I'm still here, and

564
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: they didn't want to still be here. They were so

565
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: struck down by their grief and sadness. To them saying

566
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: I wake up and I feel ready to get on

567
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: with my day. And people say you look different, you

568
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: feel different, you sound different. They will literally say this

569
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: is life changing, or I've got my life back, or

570
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: I'm back to my old self. And for some people,

571
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: they have been stuck in grief for months and years

572
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: and it's almost like We've flicked a switch somehow and

573
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: they can now cope much better. It doesn't remove the

574
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: devastating fact that their loved one died, but that intense

575
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: sadness is markedly reduced. They feel more accepting, they feel

576
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: more at peace, and very often they report that they

577
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: feel an ongoing sense of connection with the person. So

578
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: in our research we ask people, you know, if you

579
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: had any ADCs since your therapy sessions, and a number

580
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: of people said, yes, I have, or I feel them

581
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: close to me, or I've been having more dreams of them,

582
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: and yeah. It seems to just open a door for

583
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: some people where they have that sense of an ongoing

584
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: presence and a continuing bond, which we know from grief

585
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: research is really healthy for people. It helps them adapt

586
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: and it helps them be able to live and to

587
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: regain their quality of life.

588
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: Does this therapy tom, Is it specifically for someone who

589
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 3: has lost a loved one or I know people who

590
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 3: have been devastated by the breakup of a relationship or

591
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,479
Speaker 3: have been given a life threatening disease and are going

592
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 3: through that anticipatory grief. Can it help in other ways?

593
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 3: If someone were to meet.

594
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: With you, I think it is likely to help them.

595
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: The difference is that when somebody is bereaved because of

596
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: a death, that's where there's that ADC component, that sense

597
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: of an after death communication. But I sense that the

598
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: method itself is very likely to be helpful for those

599
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: other things as well. And it's a great question because

600
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: this is a field that warrants a lot more research.

601
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: I know Jan Holden did a study at the University

602
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: of North Texas and that's in the documentary Life with Guys.

603
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: But I hope that it isn't just down to Jan

604
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: and me. I hope there's more researchers and more people

605
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: maybe seeking out grant funding and doing bigger studies, because

606
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: certainly the potential here is really significant.

607
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 3: Well, it's funny. I heard a story not too long

608
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 3: ago about gentlemen listening to my podcast who did the

609
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: research and now he's got a book and now he's

610
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 3: helping people, and he's now being interviewed by me right now.

611
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 3: So we're going to trust that these words are going

612
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 3: to land to more people who will continue on with this,

613
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 3: even some therapists who may not know that they can

614
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 3: learn this as well and make a difference with people.

615
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 3: I love it. How can people best find out about it,

616
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 3: talk a little bit about somebody would like to book

617
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: a session with you. Isn't there a questionnaire that you

618
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 3: have for people as well to make sure they're fit.

619
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I have a pre screening set of questions

620
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: on my website, Healing Grief with IADC dot com. And

621
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: I'm calling this my virtual private practice because it's the

622
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: means through which I can reach people anywhere in the

623
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: world and facilitate these sessions over zoom. So if people

624
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: go to that website, they can click on the pre

625
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: screening button and it will give them five or six

626
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,959
Speaker 1: questions that will help them figure out if they're likely

627
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: to be a good fit or if the therapy is

628
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: likely to be a good fit for them. There's also

629
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: some information about what to expect and what's involved, so

630
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: they're welcome to read through that, and then if they

631
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: think it is something they might like to proceed with,

632
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: they can book in a screening call, which is just

633
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 1: a twenty five minute chat over zoom where I would

634
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: ask them some specific questions. It's absolutely free of charge.

635
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: It's no obligation at all, but it's just to find

636
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: out if it's a good fit and we go through

637
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 1: that set of screening questions in about twenty five minutes,

638
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: and then I can answer any questions a person has

639
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: and they can figure out then if collectively we decide

640
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: if it's right for them and we can book it in.

641
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's quite a bit of information out there.

642
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: Don't forget. Alan Botkin wrote his fabulous book which was

643
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: now twenty years ago, interestingly enough, Induced after Death Communication.

644
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: It's a great book. And of course there's nine detailed

645
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 1: case studies in my book which will give people a

646
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: feel for what it looks like and feels like to

647
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 1: be in a session.

648
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 3: Tell us more about your book and what else we

649
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 3: can find in it, because certainly there's got to be

650
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 3: some spiritual lessons or something that you've gleaned from all

651
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: this investigation.

652
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: There are, there are, So it's a funny book. I

653
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: think it's a bit of a cross genre thing. It's

654
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: part memoir, it's part psychology, it's part spirituality. But aside

655
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: from my personal journey from being this cowardly grief therapist

656
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: who didn't want to deal with grief and felt helpless,

657
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: to being someone who was really seeking out grieving clients

658
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 1: and these really amazing case studies that people have given

659
00:37:58,280 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 1: me permission graciously to share.

660
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 3: We'll be right back with some more empowering words from

661
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 3: doctor Tom Nemi. You're listening to Shades of the Afterlife

662
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.

663
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Shades of the Afterlife. I'm Sandra Champlain

664
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: and doctor Tom Nemi was just about to tell us

665
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 3: about his book, Inspired Life, Beautiful Death, Healing Grief, overcoming

666
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 3: fear of death and living a spiritual life.

667
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: It's part memoir, it's part psychology, it's part spirituality. But

668
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 1: aside from my personal journey from being this cowardly grief

669
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 1: therapist who didn't want to deal with grief and felt

670
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: helpless to being someone who really seeking out grieving clients

671
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: and these really amazing case studies that people have given

672
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: me permission graciously to share. But there's also a lot

673
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: of spiritual lessons because when we accept it as facts

674
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: that we don't die, and that there is a spiritual world,

675
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: and that our bonds are not broken with death and

676
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: we're still connected to our loved ones, there are implications

677
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: of that for how we live. I spent a lot

678
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: of time exploring the testimony of near death experiences and

679
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: learning more about the life review. I mean, this is

680
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: one of the most common features that we hear from

681
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: near death experiences is that I saw this review of

682
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 1: my life. But it's of course not just like watching

683
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: a movie. They feel their interactions with other people, they

684
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: feel the consequences of their influence in their life. And

685
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 1: when people come back from that, it's just this extraordinary

686
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: set of contrary beliefs about what matters. Because in our

687
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: physical world we're so caught up in status and achievement

688
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: and assets and money and celebrity. We've got this whole

689
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: materialist world around us that tells us this is what

690
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 1: you should judge yourself by. Well, none of that matters

691
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 1: a dot in the afterlife. This is the lesson. None

692
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: of that matters. What matters is did you love with

693
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: your life? For you an influence of kindness, and did

694
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: you leave people better than you found them? See. The

695
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: good news is that if anyone out there listening thinks

696
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: I want to be a spiritual person, but I don't

697
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: know how, the good news is anyone can be spiritual

698
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: in their life by thinking about their actions day to

699
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: day and their influence on others. For me, that's what

700
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: spirituality is. Sure, you can do your meditations and you

701
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: can do all other things, but real spirituality is about

702
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: our influence on others every day of the week. And

703
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: as soon as I heard about the life of you,

704
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: and I read so many different accounts of it, I thought,

705
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: how can I apply this now? Because Okay, I accept

706
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: that I'm going to have a life review when I die.

707
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that's a long way away. I can't bank

708
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: on that. But we could have this kind of calmic procrastination. Well,

709
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: I guess I'll face that when the time comes. But

710
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: I thought, how do we remember this reality day to day?

711
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 1: And so I started doing something I call the day review,

712
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: not in the life review, the day review. And I

713
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 1: do this every day. Occasionally I fall asleep if I'm

714
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 1: really tired before I finish this, but I do it

715
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: when I get into bed, and anyone can do this.

716
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: It just takes a few minutes. A day review involves

717
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: thinking back on your day from the moment you got

718
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: up to the moment you got into bed, and thinking

719
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: about all of the main interactions you had with other people,

720
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: and just thinking did I act from a position of

721
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: a loving intent, because we know intentions matter. It's not

722
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 1: just about how do you make someone feel, it's about

723
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: your intention, It's about influence on somebody else. And the

724
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 1: strangest thing happened because I didn't want to wait to

725
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: the end of my life to figure out am I

726
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: living in this way that the spiritual world is going

727
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: to view as beneficial? But I started realizing there were

728
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: a lot of times where I was impulsive, short tempered,

729
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: didn't really consider the other person moment, so I would

730
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: be selfish, and it brought this into full view. And

731
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: then doing it regularly, something strange happened. I started thinking

732
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: about my day review during the day, and so I

733
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: would be in the midst of an interaction with someone

734
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 1: and I'd have this moment where I'd think, just take

735
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: a breath, or can your word this differently? Or what

736
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: does your body language say? It made me be more

737
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 1: present with other people. It made me be more thoughtful,

738
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 1: It made me be more kind, and that is transformative

739
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: because these are the things that we know the spiritual

740
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: world is going to show us at the end of

741
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: our life, So why not start now and live a

742
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: spiritual life in this very practical everyday kind of way.

743
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 3: Absolutely. How about showing kindness to yourself? Is that part

744
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 3: of the review?

745
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 1: Definitely? So you know, self compassion is part of being compassionate,

746
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: and it's funny. In my other psychological work, I do

747
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 1: a lot of work on the prevention of anxiety and depression.

748
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: Our research in that area found that self compassion treating

749
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: yourself kindly is one of the most protective things that

750
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: you can do for your well being. It reduces your

751
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: risk for anxiety and depression. And I'm absolutely certain that

752
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: for people in grief, treating themselves kindly is also going

753
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: to help mitigate the distress from that grief and that

754
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: judgment of why aren't I functioning at my best when

755
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: I'm in grief? Why aren't I able to do X,

756
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: Y or Z. Self compassion is absolutely critical, and I

757
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: had to be kind to myself when I noticed myself

758
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: being impulsive and impatient. I had to say, well, hang on,

759
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: I'm doing my best, and so it was a prompt

760
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: for me to apply self compassion there too.

761
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 3: Those are good words. I know that there's thoughts in

762
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 3: our mind that we have about ourselves that we would

763
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 3: never voice to another person. I don't know why we're

764
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 3: so tough aut ourselves. It's part of a human being

765
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 3: this So I think to have that day review in

766
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: catching yourself in the act we human beings. I'm convinced

767
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 3: we're doing the best we can with what we've got,

768
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 3: and to spend our day thinking oh I should have

769
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 3: done that, or having the guilt or having the fear

770
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 3: to catch ourselves like, we're doing the best we can

771
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 3: and we're not alone.

772
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 1: If you catch yeah, and if you catch yourself in

773
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: that moment of harsh self judgment, as I think we

774
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: both have from time to time, we're both happy to

775
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: fess up to. That is to now be able to say, well,

776
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: if that was my dearest friend who had just said

777
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: that about themselves, if that was someone I'm really close to,

778
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: who was judging themselves harshly and deriding themselves, what would

779
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: I say to them and what would I do that

780
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: actually helps them? If we can apply that kindness to ourselves,

781
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 1: that self compassion in action.

782
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 3: Thank you for that. Tom. I happen to notice on

783
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 3: your website you have another book, Apples for the Mind,

784
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 3: creating emotional balance, peak performance and lifelong well being.

785
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,720
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what that is? Sure? That book

786
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: came out of my work in preventive psychology and developing

787
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: a program. We call it the Healthy Minds Program, and

788
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: we run that in schools around Australia and we go

789
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: into companies where we teach people the psychological skills that

790
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: help you to have a healthy emotional life. And in

791
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: fact we prove that you can prevent the onset of

792
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: symptoms of anxiety and depression, you can reduce risk for

793
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: eating disorders, and you can do it by teaching people

794
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: these psychological skills of how to have a healthy mind.

795
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: And so I put a lot of that into my

796
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: first book, which came out about six years ago, and

797
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: that's kind of a personal development book talking about these

798
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,240
Speaker 1: psychological skills.

799
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: I'm so proud of you and the work that you've

800
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: done and that you will continue to do speaking engagements.

801
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 3: I know you are open for interviews. Are you speaking anywhere?

802
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 3: I believe there's an IM's which is our friends at

803
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 3: International Association for Near Death Studies coming up in Chicago

804
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five.

805
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: Correct, there is, And I'm absolutely thrilled that I'll be

806
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: presenting at the Chicago IONS conference in late August. Thrilled

807
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: to have been invited to be part of a panel

808
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: presentation with Professor Jan Holden and Graham Maxi, who I

809
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 1: think you've had on your show as well, and doctor

810
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: Noel Saint Jermain Sair as well, who is a co

811
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: executive director of IDC. So I was just really so

812
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: humbled and excited when I got invited to be on

813
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 1: that panel and present my research and be part of

814
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: that discussion. So yes, I'll be in Chicago in late August,

815
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 1: and I can't wait.

816
00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 3: Incredible conferences the folks at IMS puts on Iams dot

817
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 3: org is their website. Even if you don't attend a conference,

818
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 3: they have so many things, and if you're interested in

819
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 3: near death experiences, they have a treasure trove of thousands

820
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 3: of experiences you can read. They have chapters all over

821
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 3: the world, and you can join these days by zoom.

822
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,439
Speaker 3: Very very good people. I know you'll really enjoy that, Tom.

823
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 3: What else would you like to share with our time

824
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 3: together or is there any closing words? What do we

825
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 3: need to hear?

826
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: What else we could go on forever we could? I

827
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: think just a couple of things that came out from

828
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: my studies and research and my own personal journey through

829
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: all of this is the dying is beautiful. And that

830
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: sounds like a strange thing to say, but I've read

831
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: so many NDE testimonies, and that's the title of a

832
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: chapter in my book. Part of the distress of grief

833
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: is those questions where are they and what happened and

834
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 1: what did they experience? But we now have this enormous

835
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: body of evidence from near death experience. We can collectively

836
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: take all these different anecdotal accounts and regarded as scientific evidence,

837
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: because if everybody's reporting this stuff, it's valid and it's

838
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: worth paying attention to. So just the fact that dying

839
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 1: generally is not distressing, that's not what people report. When

840
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: people die suddenly, they often say, well, I left my

841
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: body before the accident or whatever may have happened. And

842
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: sometimes when people are resuscitated and they talk about their

843
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: near death experiences, they're annoyed. They didn't necessarily want to

844
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: come back because they felt so good. And so these

845
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: are some really comforting lessons, really comforting realizations for people

846
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: who are in grief. And so I've just feel so

847
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: lucky and grateful to have been directed down this path

848
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: to meet you and learn about Alan Botkin and hear

849
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: about all of these amazing things that so many people

850
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: are doing, and to then gain these insights that have

851
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: brought me a lot of comfort, and I think can

852
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 1: bring a lot of other people comfort as well. So

853
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of good. It's about the reality of

854
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 1: life after death, the fact that we can heal grief,

855
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: and we're not just healing it a little bit. People

856
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 1: are feeling a lot better after IDC therapy, and I'm

857
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: just so excited about what the future holds because there's

858
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 1: lots more work to be done and certainly I'm going

859
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: to keep doing it. So I really appreciate you letting

860
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: me share that story with everybody, And yeah, there'll be

861
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: exciting things to come, no doubt.

862
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 3: I'm so excited for you and for the world. I

863
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 3: tell you, I said it before grief. I would never

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00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 3: wish it on anyone. It's horrible, but the more we love,

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00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 3: the more pain there is. And so on one respect,

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00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 3: you say, I really have a big capacity for love

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00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 3: based on how I'm feeling, and I do think part

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00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 3: of being human, the biggest parts are learning how to love,

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00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 3: to forgive, and being of service to others. So we're

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00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 3: like minded in that way. Tom, thank you so much

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00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 3: for being our guest today.

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Speaker 1: It's been an amazing pleasure.

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00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 3: Thank you, Sandra, and I loved it as well. Don't

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00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 3: forget to visit Tom's website, Healing Grief with ia DC

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00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 3: dot com. And while you're on the internet, come visit

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00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 3: me at We Don'tdie dot com. Be sure to enter

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00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 3: your name and email address at the bottom of the page,

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00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 3: and I've got some wonderful surprises for you there. I'm

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00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 3: Sandra Champlain and from the bottom of my heart, thank

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00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 3: you for listening to Shades of the Afterlife on the

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00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Paranormal Podcast Network.

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00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast

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00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,959
Speaker 2: Day and Paranormal Podcast Network. Make sure and check out

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00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 2: all our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going

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00:50:55,280 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 2: to iHeartRadio dot com.