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Speaker 1: Originals.

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Speaker 2: This is an iHeart original. Hi, what Happened To? Listeners?

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Speaker 2: Melissa here, I wanted to pop into your feed and

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Speaker 2: share a special bonus episode with you. Usually I'm the

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Speaker 2: one interviewing people, but this time, my friend and fellow journalist,

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Speaker 2: Emma Gray turns the tables and interviews me. Emma and

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Speaker 2: I work together for many years at the Huffington Post,

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Speaker 2: both covering women's issues. She's now a columnist at MSNBC,

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Speaker 2: co author of the Rich Text Substack, and co host

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Speaker 2: of the fantastic podcast Love to See It with Emma

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Speaker 2: and Claire. In this conversation, Emma lifts the curtain a

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Speaker 2: bit on the making of What Happened To, the reporting

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Speaker 2: that went into this season, the challenges and lessons I learned,

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Speaker 2: and so much more. I hope you enjoy listening.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to have this conversation, Melissa. I was

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Speaker 3: so gripped by Libby's story, and you're reporting, and you

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Speaker 3: are just such an expert in this space, and I

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Speaker 3: am just so glad that you are taking on these stories.

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Speaker 3: This is obviously the second season of What Happened To,

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Speaker 3: the first season was about a young woman, Sandy Beale,

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Speaker 3: who died in the nineteen seventies. This season is about

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Speaker 3: Libby Caswell, who died forty years later in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious to hear you talk a little bit about

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Speaker 3: the ways in which these stories overlap and also the

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Speaker 3: ways in which they diverge, because I feel like I

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Speaker 3: picked up on some very parallel themes and then in

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Speaker 3: other ways, you know, these two women have such distinct stories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. Both of them were very young,

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Speaker 2: and both of them were really out going and kind

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Speaker 2: of ambitious, and both of them sort of came from

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Speaker 2: more working class backgrounds. I was very struck by my

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Speaker 2: reporting in season one on Sandy Beil. There wasn't a

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Speaker 2: single news article written about her death. Right she was

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Speaker 2: found shot in her car in a poleyard that was

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Speaker 2: frequented by police, and there wasn't even a news article

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Speaker 2: generated from this very unusual death. And similarly, in Libby's case,

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Speaker 2: she would someone that the police didn't necessarily. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to say that they didn't value, because I do

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Speaker 2: think there are people in the department who really cared

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Speaker 2: about her case. But she didn't come from money or

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Speaker 2: have a lot of influence in society. She was just

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Speaker 2: a young woman with a child who was really trying

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Speaker 2: to see how to get her foothold in the world

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Speaker 2: and make her way. And so both of them didn't

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Speaker 2: have very much power or influence in society at that point,

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Speaker 2: and I think both of their deaths didn't really generate

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Speaker 2: much interest or curiosity about what really happened to them.

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Speaker 3: I was very struck in both seasons by the way

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Speaker 3: that these women were viewed and valued by the culture

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Speaker 3: at large, specifically by the police, in a way that

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Speaker 3: ultimately seems to have really impacted the investigations into their deaths.

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Speaker 3: What do you think these stories tell us about how

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Speaker 3: we as a culture view women's lives and then also

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Speaker 3: their deaths, like on a larger scale.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think about Libby, and I don't want to

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Speaker 2: give way any spoilers here, but you know, she was

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Speaker 2: found in a really shady motel on the bad part

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Speaker 2: of town, and I think that speaks to how her

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Speaker 2: death was viewed right as sort of not very important,

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Speaker 2: not something that deserved a lot of consideration. And for Sandy,

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Speaker 2: I think it was basically just kind of swept under

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Speaker 2: the rug. I have thought a lot about what would

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Speaker 2: happen today. If Sandy Bial, someone who's training to become

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Speaker 2: a police officer working with the Police Explorer program, was

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Speaker 2: found shot to death with letters and stuff in her

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Speaker 2: car that really indicated that she had relationships with male

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Speaker 2: police officers, I think it would be a much bigger scandal.

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Speaker 2: I think that there is so much more understanding these

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Speaker 2: days about power and the responsibilities we have to young

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Speaker 2: people and young women in this situation, and I think

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Speaker 2: it would have gone very differently. And we have seen

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Speaker 2: a case in Massachusetts just in the last few years

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Speaker 2: that was very similar to this that has gotten a

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Speaker 2: lot of attention and investigation. But the more that I

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Speaker 2: have uncovered about Libby's case, the more I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 2: shocked this stuff is happening in twenty seventeen. And it's

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Speaker 2: not just the investigation into her death, which I think

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Speaker 2: was far too short and far too shallow considering the

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Speaker 2: circumstances surrounding it, but just also how she was treated

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Speaker 2: by police and by the systems that were supposed to

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Speaker 2: support her during her life, Like it is really incomprehensible

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Speaker 2: how someone who is asking for help ends up being

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Speaker 2: punished by these systems. Still today, there's such a superficial

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Speaker 2: understanding of how domestic violence operates that leads a lot

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Speaker 2: of victims to end up being held responsible themselves, punished themselves,

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Speaker 2: and ultimately set the message that they're not valued and

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Speaker 2: if they try to get help, they are likely to

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Speaker 2: get in trouble themselves.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, a major theme of Livy's story is

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Speaker 3: this disconnect between the realities of what it means to

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Speaker 3: be in and attempt to get out of an abusive relationship.

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Speaker 3: And then I'll say lackluster resources available to victims, to

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Speaker 3: their loved ones, resources like the police. What more specifically,

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Speaker 3: do you think this story tells us about the gaps

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Speaker 3: in law enforcement's ability to adequately deal with domestic violence cases.

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Speaker 2: I think this question is why I was really drawn

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Speaker 2: to Libby's story, right beyond even trying to work out

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Speaker 2: what happened to her in her death, but how what

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Speaker 2: happened in her life when she was presenting as a

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Speaker 2: pretty typical teenage domestic violence victim. Like at this point,

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Speaker 2: I've covered so many of these stories and they're not unique,

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Speaker 2: they follow very traditional patterns, and that was what was

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Speaker 2: going on for her. She had a boyfriend who but

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Speaker 2: many many accounts, was physically abusive towards her. And we

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Speaker 2: know that victims are told to call the police. That

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Speaker 2: that is the recourse that we have been told is

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Speaker 2: available to us. When I first started working in this area,

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Speaker 2: I too thought, well, yeah, every time I saw a

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Speaker 2: domestic violence case that went poorly, I was like, the

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Speaker 2: police should have done more. That was what the problem is.

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Speaker 2: But the more I've reported in this area and the

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Speaker 2: more I've sort of questioned that premise, the police are

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Speaker 2: not always the best response in these cases and often

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Speaker 2: can make things worse. And I think we see that

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Speaker 2: in Libby's case. Her family was calling the police over

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Speaker 2: and over again seeking help, and the police did not

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Speaker 2: offer her resources beyond basically giving the family a lecture

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Speaker 2: and then ultimately calling their house a nuisance property, finding

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Speaker 2: them and taking them to court for calling the police.

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Speaker 2: And these nuisance ordinances exist all across the country and

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Speaker 2: have been used against domestic violence victims a lot as

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Speaker 2: a way of not so subtly sending the message we

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Speaker 2: don't want you to call. This is not a role

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Speaker 2: that we want to be playing here. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I've had a lot of conversations with Libby's mom about

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Speaker 2: like what could she have done differently, like what else

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Speaker 2: would have been out there for her? Because she didn't know.

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Speaker 2: All she thought was like, oh, Okay, this is happening.

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Speaker 2: The police are the right people to respond, and she

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Speaker 2: learned pretty quickly that it wasn't. But I've had a

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Speaker 2: hard time trying to identify other areas for her to

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Speaker 2: look into. I mean, clearly there are shelters. Shelters offer

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Speaker 2: some support, but they're also not necessarily a great place

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Speaker 2: for everyone to be, especially if you have a child.

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Speaker 2: There's just kind of a lack of imagination around what

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Speaker 2: can be offering victims that can improve their lives. And

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Speaker 2: I hope that this podcast will spur a conversation about

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Speaker 2: what we can do to support people and families.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious, you know, you are a journalist who tends

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Speaker 3: to focus on reporting that has themes of violence against women.

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Speaker 3: What is it about that area of journalism and storytelling

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Speaker 3: that drew you to it.

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Speaker 2: I sort of came there in a haphazard way of

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Speaker 2: writing about gun violence and writing about specifically how women

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Speaker 2: were affected by gun violence, and as I dug into

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Speaker 2: that data, really coming to this realization that so much

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Speaker 2: gun violence that involves women is domestic violence, is violence

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Speaker 2: as committed by their partners. So that was sort of

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Speaker 2: how I started my entry point into this world. But

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Speaker 2: I think what made me really interested in continuing to

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Speaker 2: report is that it is such a form of violence,

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Speaker 2: and yet there's so many misconceptions about it, and it's

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Speaker 2: often sort of just overlooked even when these stories are

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Speaker 2: being told.

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Speaker 3: Something that I love about your reporting is this effort

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Speaker 3: not to just focus on Libby's death, but to talk

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Speaker 3: about her life and talk about what her story says

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Speaker 3: about the larger gaps that exist in our society. And

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Speaker 3: I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about

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Speaker 3: how and when you first heard about Libby Caswall like,

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Speaker 3: let's take it back to the beginning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I was still reporting Season one at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I had been working with a source, a doctor

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Speaker 2: Bill Smock, who's a forensic pathologist. I've known him for

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Speaker 2: many years and I really trust his judgment, and I

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Speaker 2: had been running some stuff by him for the Sandy

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Speaker 2: Beale story and he reached out to me and was like, look,

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Speaker 2: I have another case and if you are going to

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Speaker 2: do another story, I really want you to con this one,

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Speaker 2: and there's so much documentation that you can dig into.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that was a very big difference between doing

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Speaker 2: a story from the nineteen seventies and a story from

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. Is just the sheer amount of paperwork and

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Speaker 2: people to talk to. So that was like when I

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Speaker 2: first heard it and he sent me some information. He

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Speaker 2: had a PowerPoint presentation that he had created about the

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Speaker 2: forensic evidence that he found very compelling in her case,

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Speaker 2: and so he sent that to me. I looked through it,

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Speaker 2: but in the moment, I was like, I need to

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Speaker 2: finish season one before I can start thinking about any

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Speaker 2: other cases. But I couldn't stop thinking about her and

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Speaker 2: the circumstances surrounding her death, the stuff about the nusance law,

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Speaker 2: all the nine one one calls, the way they had

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Speaker 2: been treated, And I knew that the family was willing

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Speaker 2: to talk. And you know, it's no small feat being

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Speaker 2: involved in a podcast like this. It involves communication with

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Speaker 2: me for over a year where I'm really dredging up

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Speaker 2: stuff from the past and I'm asking difficult questions and

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Speaker 2: not everyone is up for that. And so I had

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Speaker 2: a conversation with her mom and really tried to lay

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Speaker 2: out what it would look like if I was to

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Speaker 2: take on this story and she was willing to do it.

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Speaker 3: There is a lot of context given within this podcast.

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Speaker 3: I feel after listening to it, like I have an

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Speaker 3: understanding of the forces that were at play that made

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Speaker 3: livy situation or Sandy's situation so dangerous and volatile, and

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Speaker 3: the ways in which the systems that we all operate

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Speaker 3: within failed both of them in different ways. Definitely, something

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Speaker 3: that I've noticed consuming a lot of true crime is

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Speaker 3: this almost disconnect that I sometimes feel from the person

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Speaker 3: telling the story from the humanity of the people that

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Speaker 3: they are talking about. And I think something this show

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Speaker 3: does really well is paint a real human picture of

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Speaker 3: all of the characters involved. The victim of course, Libby

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Speaker 3: of course at the center of this story, but also

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Speaker 3: the people that are around her, her family members, even

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Speaker 3: potential perpetrators. And I think you do a great job

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Speaker 3: of really resisting flattening these stories into tropes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for that. And I think that's what

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Speaker 2: makes the podcast process like so robust is just you

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Speaker 2: can talk to a million people. So I tried to

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Speaker 2: talk to as many people as who would be willing

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Speaker 2: to talk to me about Libby to get a really,

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Speaker 2: you know, three sixty view of her life and her personality.

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Speaker 2: And later on in the season you'll see I do

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Speaker 2: the same thing for her boyfriend. It was a harder

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Speaker 2: lift because I wasn't able to get him to speak

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Speaker 2: with me, but I got a lot of his family,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's probably one of the episodes that

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Speaker 2: I'm proudest of because I know from just the amount

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Speaker 2: of people who I've talked to who are domestic violence victims,

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Speaker 2: they don't see their partners or the ex partners most

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Speaker 2: of the time as monsters, as evil. They see them

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Speaker 2: as people who are hurt and had really bad things

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Speaker 2: happened to them too, and you know, are going through

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Speaker 2: their own struggles, and they oftentimes love them and want

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Speaker 2: the best for them. So it was very important to

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Speaker 2: me that although you know, I didn't want to shy

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Speaker 2: away from any of his like alleged behaviors and how

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Speaker 2: they might have impacted her and traumatized her, but I

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Speaker 2: also wanted to create some space to understand the forces

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Speaker 2: at play that might have created him and his behavior.

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Speaker 3: So before the first season of What Happened to You,

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Speaker 3: primarily worked with the written word line media. Both of

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Speaker 3: us now work a lot in the audio space, and

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Speaker 3: I'm curious to hear from you what are the challenges

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Speaker 3: of transitioning into audio journalism and also what ways do

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Speaker 3: you feel it's kind of deepened your ability to tell

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Speaker 3: these stories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's it's such a shift, i think,

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Speaker 2: especially coming from the background that we both did where

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Speaker 2: it was like a pretty fast paced news environment. There's

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Speaker 2: been a real challenge of like being able to be

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Speaker 2: a little more patient and work on things for a

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Speaker 2: longer time period before they come out. I mean I

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Speaker 2: was used to, you know, putting out multiple stories in

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Speaker 2: a single week, and this is spending a year and

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Speaker 2: a half on a single story. And there's many months

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Speaker 2: of that where I'm like, oh, I've just got this

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Speaker 2: great story that I'm developing, but no one can hear

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Speaker 2: it yet, and you're just kind of in the weeds

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Speaker 2: for a while. That was challenging for someone who's a

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Speaker 2: little impatient like myself, But now it's all worth it

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Speaker 2: when it's coming together. You know, I've always loved long

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Speaker 2: form investigative journalism. It's just the best when you get

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Speaker 2: to develop characters, you know, really get ameshed in different

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Speaker 2: people's lives, and I feel like being able to do

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Speaker 2: a podcast like this where you get to hear people,

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Speaker 2: you hear their accents, you hear how they are approaching

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Speaker 2: things like the emotion, it deepens the story so much,

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Speaker 2: and I'm just really grateful that I get the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to spend as much time as I have with these

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Speaker 2: people and really bring their stories into focus.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about some of

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Speaker 3: the specifics of Libby's story before we finish. Libby and

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Speaker 3: Devin both struggled with drug abuse. We know that there

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Speaker 3: is a lot of stigma towards people who have substance

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Speaker 3: abuse disorder who struggle with drug use, and particularly about

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Speaker 3: why they start and why they continue to use these drugs.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk about that a little more and how

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Speaker 3: that stigma played into both of their stories.

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Speaker 2: You know, one of my concerns even covering Libby's story

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Speaker 2: was will people care about her when they find out

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Speaker 2: that she did struggle and she struggled with meth a

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Speaker 2: drug that has a really bad reputation. I didn't want

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Speaker 2: people to write her off and just see her as

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Speaker 2: I don't know trashy or weak or whatever these stereotypes

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Speaker 2: are around people who use drugs like meth. I do

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Speaker 2: try to spend some time in the podcast really exploring

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Speaker 2: her as a person before we introduce the drug use,

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Speaker 2: so that the listener has an opportunity to see her

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Speaker 2: beyond just one of the struggles that she was facing.

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Speaker 2: But drug abuse is incredibly common in the US and

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Speaker 2: across the world, and it affects family tremendously. And I

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Speaker 2: really felt for Cindy, Libby's mom, the struggle it was

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Speaker 2: for her, seeing her daughter go through something like this

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Speaker 2: and trying her best to support her and not knowing

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Speaker 2: how I mean, that's, you know, a very universal story.

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Speaker 2: In particular for Libby and Devin, their drug use, paired

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Speaker 2: with the violence in their relationship, really worked to push

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Speaker 2: their relationship more into the shadows and make it even

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Speaker 2: harder to seek support. So if you're thinking about police

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Speaker 2: is the support, right, that's also you're not going to

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Speaker 2: want to go talk to police if you're doing a

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Speaker 2: legal behavior like using drugs, But it's something that has

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Speaker 2: shame wrapped up in it already, privacy secresy. So these

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Speaker 2: two factors kind of melding together I think made it

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Speaker 2: more dangerous for both of them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's sort of a perfect story. And I'm so

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Speaker 3: struck by your choice to hold onto that information so

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Speaker 3: that those of us listening could kind of go on

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Speaker 3: this journey of empathy for Libby before introducing that. And

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Speaker 3: to me, that brings up a question of kind of

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Speaker 3: what do we demand from our victims, Like what sort

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Speaker 3: of quote unquote perfection do we want from people who

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Speaker 3: are victimized in this world, especially women.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like her story is a great example

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Speaker 2: of not a perfect victim. Right, She had problems with meth,

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Speaker 2: she had resisted law enforcement if they responded to her house.

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Speaker 2: She was called uncooperative because she did not want to

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Speaker 2: work with the police. She had gotten in trouble herself before.

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Speaker 2: When we're looking for like the perfect victim to be

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Speaker 2: grateful for police intervention and do all the right thing,

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Speaker 2: are the quote unquote right things like that's not where

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Speaker 2: she was at. And I think those are the stories

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Speaker 2: that are really important to tell because that's the majority

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Speaker 2: of victims are not going to act like how you

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Speaker 2: might expect them to or how you might want them to,

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Speaker 2: and it's really up to us to do the work

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Speaker 2: to understand where they're coming from, where she's coming from,

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Speaker 2: and how to support someone in that situation, because if

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Speaker 2: you're not in it, you don't really know what's best, right.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the things I learned covering domestic

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Speaker 2: violence was like, victims might act counterintuitively to how you

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Speaker 2: might imagine that they should act, but they might be

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Speaker 2: doing things that will keep them safe, that will keep

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Speaker 2: their kids safe that you just can't even understand. Having

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Speaker 2: a little bit of faith that they know what they're

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Speaker 2: doing to try to protect themselves and trying to support

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Speaker 2: them where they are, And oftentimes that means that they

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily want to leave their partner, or they might

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Speaker 2: not be ready to leave their partner. They just want

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Speaker 2: the violence to stop, and how can we support them there,

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Speaker 2: even if it's uncomfortable.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah, pushing through that discomfort, I feel like is

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Speaker 3: a big part of it, and understanding that people who

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Speaker 3: experience violence of any kind shouldn't need to earn our

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Speaker 3: empathy through their quote unquote good or correct behavior. One

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Speaker 3: of the strongest through lines through the podcast is the

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Speaker 3: voice of Cindy Caswell, Libby's mom. She's been a major

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Speaker 3: advocate for her daughter, getting her story out there, uncovering

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Speaker 3: things that are unknown or have been not investigated enough.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk more about Cindy and what it's been

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Speaker 3: like for you to get to know her. Obviously, as

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Speaker 3: you said, you've spent a lot of time talking to

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Speaker 3: her over the last year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Cindy is really a remarkable person, and she's

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Speaker 2: gone through such a transformation even in the time that

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Speaker 2: I've known her. When I first went and interviewed her

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Speaker 2: in Missus, I remember being like, I wonder if her

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Speaker 2: voice is going to come through very well because she's

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Speaker 2: so quiet, and she was so soft spoken and reserved

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Speaker 2: when I first met her. And now I talk to

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Speaker 2: her and it's like a different person because she really

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Speaker 2: has just done a lot of processing over the last year,

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Speaker 2: but also just becomes so educated about domestic violence, about

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Speaker 2: cases like her own daughters, and she's found like a

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Speaker 2: well of strength and it's really changed who she is.

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Speaker 2: She's gone back to school for early childhood education, Like,

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Speaker 2: she's made a huge amount of changes in her life

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Speaker 2: and it's been a real honor to watch it and

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Speaker 2: also just to bear witness to her ongoing understanding and

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Speaker 2: interpreting of her daughter's experience, like she's has a much

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Speaker 2: different perspective on it now than she did when it

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Speaker 2: first happened, and her own role in it, and she's

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Speaker 2: dealt with a lot of shame around it, a lot

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Speaker 2: of guilt that she didn't understand well enough that she

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Speaker 2: didn't do the right thing for her daughter. And that's

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Speaker 2: a very common experience for someone who loses someone so early.

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Speaker 2: But I think that witnessing what she's gone through is

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Speaker 2: a real testament just to the strength that can come

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Speaker 2: from living through something like this and really trying to

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Speaker 2: help others as an outcome.

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Speaker 3: So, just to finish up, Melissa, I'm curious what kind

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Speaker 3: of story are you interested in exploring next. Do you

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Speaker 3: already have one in your back pocket for a potential

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Speaker 3: season three?

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Speaker 2: Well, I won't give anything away. I have a few ideas,

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Speaker 2: but I'm curious to see how this season is received

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Speaker 2: and what comes out of it. And I'm just very

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Speaker 2: hopeful that a lot of people will listen to Libby's

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Speaker 2: story and it will resonate with them.

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Speaker 1: I think God did from Lorraine and Attim, keep you grown,

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Speaker 1: don't make.

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Speaker 2: What happened to Libby Caswell is written reported and hosted

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Speaker 2: by me Melissa Jelson, with writing and story editing by

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Speaker 2: Marisa Brown and Lauren Hanson. Episodes are edited by Jeremy

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Speaker 2: Thal and Carl Catle. Our executive producer is Ryan Murdoch.

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Speaker 2: For iHeart Podcasts, executive producers are Jason English and Katrina Norvell,

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Speaker 2: with our supervising producer Carl Catle. Fact checking by my

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Speaker 2: Shoe Cree. Our theme song is written by Aaron Kaufman

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Speaker 2: and performed by Aaron Kaufman and Elizabeth Wolfe. Original music

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Speaker 2: by Aaron Kaufman with additional music by Jeremy Thal. Our

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Speaker 2: episodes are mixed and mastered by Carl Catle. To find

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Speaker 2: out more about my investigation or to send a tip,

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Speaker 2: please email me at what Happened to Libby at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com. Thanks so much for listening.

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Speaker 1: Fie my soup in Pieces.

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Speaker 2: In Pieces

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Speaker 1: You in Peace, sids and pie sizes in the