WEBVTT - The Lead Up 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:09.080 It's September twentieth, nineteen sixty three. A man in a 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:13.320 dark suit walks into a post office in al Paso, Texas, 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:19.280 emails three registered letters, then strolls across the street and 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:24.000 enters the State National Bank. He approaches the teller and 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:28.240 asks for one hundred dollars in American Express travelers checks. 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.880 As the teller works on his request, the man in 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.400 the dark suit pulls out a forty five caliber revolver 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.640 and fires two shots into the ceiling of the bank. 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.200 As people duck for cover. The man casually exits the bank. 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.360 An off duty police officer named Jim Bundron, who is 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:49.479 in the vicinity. Here's the shots. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:50.479 Believe it or not. 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:54.320 I was on my day off, that's Officer Bundron. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:59.320 I heard the shots. Everybody was just, you know, just shocked. Right, 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.960 says where is he and what's he wearing? And he 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:08.960 said in a blue suit, white shirt, red tie. Evidently 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.080 he had run out of the bank with a gun 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.000 in his hand. And I know he couldn't have gotten 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.880 that far ahead of it, right, And this car pulls 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.680 out of the alley. Then I could see his face 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:23.240 was flushed. I could see the white shirt red tie 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.800 and I just I drew and he didn't say anything. 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:32.840 Officer Bunden arrests him, and as he's being handcuffed, the 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.119 man in the dark suit invites the officer to look 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.840 into the trunk of his car. The officer carefully opens 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.640 the trunk and in it he finds a bizarre collection 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:46.759 of cameras, photos, and documents. 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:51.480 He had a real small minulti camera I think in 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.640 the loser probably called a spy. Came right and he 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:59.120 had his own processing with him. I searched his car 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:05.440 and he had pictures of top secret restricted areas, pictures 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:10.079 of inside of compounds, had a lot of pictures of 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:11.000 dead bodies. 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.560 The man in the dark suit is Richard case Nagel. 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:18.280 That's Dick Russell. Richard case Nagel is a former US 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:23.200 Army veteran, three times Purple Heart recipient, intelligence officer and 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:24.519 CIA operative. 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.520 Nagel's arrested and charged with attempted bank robbery. 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.760 And then there is a preliminary here. I sat and 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.000 just talked to him. It's like you and I were talking, 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:36.840 and he says, well on a graduate company. He says, 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:41.360 I really don't want to be in Dallas. I said, well, 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:43.040 what do you mean by that? He says, you'll want 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:43.560 him there. 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:48.440 Nagel was arrested on September twentieth, nineteen sixty three, two 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:52.840 months before President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas. 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:59.079 This is who killed JFK Sixty years later? What can 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:03.360 we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history? 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.080 And why does it still matter today? I'm your host, 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:08.200 Solidad O'Brien. 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.720 Now, last episode, we took you through Oswald's bizarre return 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:19.320 to the United States. We met his CIA connected babysitters, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.000 George de Moornshield and Ruth Payne, who were tasked with 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.520 looking out for him. We discussed the time that Oswald 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.320 spent in New Orleans, where he was arrested for handing 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.920 out pro castro leaflets. We also introduced you to the 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:37.680 CIA's head of counter intelligence, James Jesus Angleton and his 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:41.880 Wilderness of mirrors. Angleton was known as the Poet's Spy, 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.880 and he was obsessed with removing Castro from Cuba. Now, 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.320 it's important to keep all that in mind as. 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:49.040 We move forward. 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:51.080 So what comes next? 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:51.960 Okay? 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:55.720 In New Orleans in the summer of nineteen sixty three, 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.360 while handing out the leaflets for the Fair Play for 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:02.360 Cuba Committee, Oswald gets into a fight with a bunch 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:06.760 of anti Castro activists. He's arrested, and the first thing 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.640 he does is request to speak to an FBI agent. 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.360 On September twenty fifth, the White House announces that the 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.839 President will be visiting Dallas in November. Then we start 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:24.280 to see a swell of covert activity. Chess pieces are 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.920 being moved around the board. Richard case Nagel, the man 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.359 in the dark suit who shot two bullets into the 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.640 ceiling of the bank. He's going to give us insight 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.200 into how all this covert activity will lead us to 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:38.560 a history changing event. 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.160 So Dick explain to us who is Richard K. S. 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:45.560 Nagel. 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.760 Nagel was a decorated veteran, a Bronze Star medal winner, 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.040 and a former intelligence officer. As we mentioned earlier, he 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.279 first met Oswald in Japan, where they were tasked to 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:57.719 try to recruit a Soviet officer to defect. 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.360 So how did you firm encounter Nakel? 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.440 I first heard about him from another JFK researcher in 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.880 the nineteen seventies. I was intrigued hearing about this Bronze 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.800 Star medal recipient that claimed to have known Oswald, So 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.479 I did some research. I went to El Paso, where 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.159 he was arrested for the so called bank robbery. I 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:18.039 went through the newspaper and court files. 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:18.320 There. 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.960 There were both Secret Service and FBI files saying that 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.360 he requested quote to speak to a Secret Service agent 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:29.240 about an urgent matter the afternoon of the assassination. I 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.000 knew I'd stumbled onto something, so I found out where 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.560 he lived. I traveled to Manhattan Beach in southern California, 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.040 and I just knocked on the door and this shadowy 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.480 figure with a scar across his face opens the door 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.599 and asked me what I wanted. I told him I'd 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:46.400 come all the way from New York to interview him. 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.240 After an uncomfortable silence, he let me in and once 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:52.600 we sat down, I asked if I could tape him, 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.760 and he looked at me and said no, but I'm 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.560 going to tape you. So he turned on his tape 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:03.560 recorder started to talk, and he spoke cryptically, but it 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.080 was about knowing Oswald and that had been involved in 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:10.200 the assassination. For some reason, he seemed to trust me, 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.839 so we agreed to meet again, this time at a 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.679 CD dive bar because he was aware that his movements 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.440 were being tracked, and he was there that he told 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.720 me that what he knew about the assassination had ruined 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:23.159 his life. 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.840 The two continued to meet for fifteen years, and eventually, 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:31.120 in nineteen ninety two, Dick published his eight hundred and 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.640 twenty four page book about Nagel, called The Man Who 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.600 Knew Too Much. So take me back to where this 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:39.600 all started. 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.920 For Nagel in Japan in nineteen fifty seven and nineteen 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.159 fifty eight, Nagel was working for a top secret army 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.839 intelligence unit that was closely connected to the CIA. It 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.680 was called Field Operations Intelligence, or FOI. 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:58.400 The American public didn't know that FOI existed until Nagel 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:02.240 described its mission in a nineteen seventy four court document. 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:06.279 He said it was quote a covert extension of CIA 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:10.160 policy and activity designed to conceal the true nature of 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:14.280 CIA objectives. He then went on to say, quote, in 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:18.280 the event I was apprehended, killed, or compromised during the 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.240 performance of my illegal FOI duties, the Department of the 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:26.840 Army would publicly disclaim any knowledge of or connection with 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:28.120 such duties. 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.320 In the early sixties, when Nagel came back to the 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:35.240 United States, Cuba had become the focus of American intelligence. 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:39.760 The CIA gave Nagel the assignment of renouncing his American 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:44.880 citizenship and approaching Soviet intelligence to offer his services, much 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.560 like they'd done with Oswald, and the Soviets then recruited 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.000 him for their own intelligence. 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.080 Gathering, so he became a double agent. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:58.600 Correct The Soviets gave him two missions, one penetrate a 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:03.360 violent group of anti Castro Cuban exiles and two keep 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.520 an eye on Lee Harvey Oswald, who had just returned 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:07.320 to America. 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.720 And were those two missions related. 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.280 At first, there was no relationship between Oswald and that 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.400 particular group of Cuban exiles, But in the summer of 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.480 nineteen sixty three, Nagel went to New Orleans and that's 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:25.520 where he was reconnected with Oswald. He learned that Oswald 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.400 was being brought into plans that he didn't fully understand, 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:33.359 and that plots to assassinate Kennedy were being discussed. Oswald 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.360 was being primed to be the fall guy, but the Soviets, 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:40.320 who had become fully aware of these plans. Didn't want 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.160 Kennedy killed, and they didn't want Oswald to be blamed. 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.160 They knew it would be pinned on them or Cuba 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:48.360 and could trigger a nuclear war. 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.520 So what did the Soviets want Nagel to do? 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.079 They wanted him to take Oswald out. 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:55.360 You mean to kill him? 0:08:55.600 --> 0:09:07.360 Yes, they wanted him to take Oswald out. 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:08.640 You mean to kill him? 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:09.160 Yes. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.040 Nagel was trapped. His loyalty was to the United States. 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.079 He knew he couldn't do it, but he also knew 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.080 that if he ignored the orders from the KGB, they 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:20.080 would take him out. 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.960 Talk about between a rock and a hard place. So 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:23.559 what does he do? 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.520 First? He tried to warn Oswald that he was being used, So. 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:29.160 Walk me through that. How did he warn him? 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.080 He meets with Oswald in Jackson Square in New Orleans 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:34.840 and tries to explain to him that the group of 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.640 Cuban exiles he's been associated with are not who they 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.480 say they are, and that he is being used by 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:45.960 extreme fascist elements to attempt an assassination on Kennedy in 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.559 order to justify invading Cuba. Nagel told me that when 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.840 Oswald heard this, he was quote visibly shaken, but denied 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.160 there'd been any discussion about killing Kennedy and just shrugged 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:01.319 him off. Nagel knew that when he he couldn't convince Oswald, 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.360 his life would be at risk, so he figured the 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.360 safest place for him was to be in prison. He 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:09.960 told me that just before shooting up the bank, he 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.760 mailed a registered letter to Jay ed Garhover detailing what 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.320 he knew about the assassination plot, and sent another warning 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:20.200 letter to his handlers in the CIA. Then, to back 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.960 up his story, he placed a notebook in his car 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.400 that contained information that only someone on the inside would 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:29.760 have had. Several of the notations were virtually identical to 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.840 what the authorities later found among Oswalt's possessions. They both 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.600 had small Minolta spy cameras, they both had leaflets for 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.720 the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and they both had 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.960 the same unlisted phone number for the Cuban embassy in 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:45.680 Mexico City. 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.480 Did getting arrested save him? 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.040 It kept him alive for a while, but it ended 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.400 up ruining his life. He was in prison for four 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.800 and a half years, part of which he spent in 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.679 a psych ward. That's how they began to build out 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.600 an nerve that he was nuts. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.800 So, as a person who's interviewing him because you're writing 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.000 your book, how do you navigate that question of his credibility? 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.640 How do you decide you know what's true? 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:16.880 First you assess the existing evidence, which means Nagle's notebook, 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.679 the fact that he had an ID card for Oswald 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:23.240 showing up in his lawyer's files, and the newspaper accounts 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.160 of his trial in El Paso where he tried to 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.160 bring up Oswald and the assassination. Second, interview as many 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.640 people as possible who knew him, and I found many 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:35.320 who attested to his background and credibility. A couple of these, 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:39.720 Jim Garrison and attorney Bernard Finsterwald Junior, told me Nagel 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.720 was the most important living witness to what happened on 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:47.280 November twenty second, nineteen sixty three. And I realized that 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.280 the powers behind the cover up were determined to marginalize 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:54.319 him first paint him as crazy. Then after he got 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.560 out of prison, the CIA tracked his movements and there 0:11:57.559 --> 0:11:59.160 were a number of attempts on his life. 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.480 How long were you in contact with him? 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.520 I met with him periodically for more than twenty years, 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.920 and during that time, I saw a man who was torn. 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.640 He wanted to come clean, to reveal what he knew, 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:15.559 but he knew that if he told everything, he'd be killed. 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.439 So he would drop hints to steer me in the 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:19.360 right direction. 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:21.439 Like deep Throat in Watergate. 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:21.800 Right. 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:23.960 And at one point he told me that if anything 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:25.960 happened to him, there was a record of everything he 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.360 knew that he kept stored in various locations and that 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:32.439 only certain people were aware of And he believed that's 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:33.400 what kept him alive. 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.920 So he did manage to stay alive. 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:37.520 For a while. 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:41.520 Then, in nineteen ninety five, when the Assassination Record's Review 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.760 Board was doing its investigation, they heard me talk about 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.560 Nagel at a conference and decided that they wanted to 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.000 interview him on the data. Subpoena arrived at his apartment, 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:52.920 Nagel was found dead. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.480 So you believe that Nagel was killed before he could talk. 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.160 Let me answer that this way. When I called his 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.040 son to tell him about his father, his son told 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.400 me that his apartment had just been broken into and 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.880 was ransacked. Then he told me about his key his 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.600 dad had left in his apartment to a storage unit 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.559 in Tucson, and that in that storage unit was a 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.800 purple trunk which contained a material his father had kept 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.160 hidden for years. When he heard what had happened to 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.760 his dad, Nagel's son flew to Tucson to check the 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:29.440 storage unit. He opened it up, looked inside, and the 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.720 only thing missing was the purple trunk. So was Nagel 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:34.880 killed before he could talk? 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:36.400 Yeah? 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:37.440 I believe he was. 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:39.560 And he wasn't the only one. 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:42.520 What happened to Nagel happened to others. 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.680 Remember George de mornshieldt Oswald's babysitter in Dallas. 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:48.719 Yeah, you said. The last time he talked about the 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.559 assassination was in an interview he did with a journalist 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.120 in nineteen seventy seven. What happened after that? 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.360 A little over a decade after testifying to the Warren 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:03.600 Commission that Oswald had acted alone, De Mornshield decided he 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.400 was going to tell the truth about what he knew. 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.719 So he wrote a manuscript titled I'm a Patsy. I'm 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:15.160 a Patsy, which was later published posthumously as a book 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.520 titled Lee Harvey Oswald As I knew him. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.920 When de Mornshield started to go public. The House Select 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.560 Committee decided to summon him. De Morshild was living in 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.680 Florida at the time, not far from Gayton Phonsie. 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:33.360 Remember Gayton Phonsie is a journalist who challenged Arlen Spector 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.960 on the single bullet theory. At the time, Phonsie was 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.240 working as an investigator for the committee. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.200 Fonsie goes to De Moornshild's house to talk to him. 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.480 He isn't home, so he leaves his business card with 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:51.200 Demarnshild's adult daughter. He tells her he'll be calling later 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.080 that night to set a time for a formal questioning. 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.520 And so when de Marshall arrives home, his daughter tells 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.000 him about Phonsie's visit gives him fan He's business card. 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:04.680 The Mornschell puts the card in his pocket, goes upstairs, 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.920 and the next morning he's found dead with a bullet 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.480 in his head, with Pansie's business card still in his pocket. 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.400 They said he'd committed suicide, but his wife told me 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.520 it was definitely not a suicide, and Nagel told me 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.080 the same thing, that he was murdered before he could testify. 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:27.080 There was also mob boss Johnny Rizselli right before he 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:31.080 was supposed to testify, he was found chopped up, stuffed 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:36.200 into an oil drum, and dumped into Biscayne Bay. There 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.760 were a number of people who died mysteriously. Within three 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:44.040 years after the Warren Commission report was released, eighteen key 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:48.640 witnesses died of either a heart attack, an accident, or suicide. 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.000 Something that has always fascinated me is the people who 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:58.080 were tangentially involved but managed to survive, like Ruth Payne. 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.320 Like Ruth Payne, You'll remember Ruth Payne as one of 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:05.040 the CIA connected people who became close with the Oswald 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.280 family when they returned to the US. 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:12.680 On September twenty fifth, the White House formally announces that 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.320 the President will be taking a tour through Texas, stopping 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:21.560 at Dallas on November twenty second. That same week, Marina 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.880 accepts Ruth Payne's invitation to have her and her baby 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.680 move in with her in Dallas. Then, in early October, 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:34.720 six weeks before the assassination, Oswald returns to Dallas, takes 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.880 a room at a boarding house, and gets a job 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:42.000 in a building position directly along what will be President 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.480 Kennedy's motorcave route. And who do you think helped him 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.640 get that job. Ruth Painne, Ruth Payne. 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.400 There are so many pieces to this picture. 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:56.400 And sixty years later, pieces are still falling into place. 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.440 So Rob, where do you go from here? Nearly five 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.320 thousand records remain withheld. Do you think that in those 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:14.000 records is one piece of evidence that details the whole plot? 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:14.560 Well? 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:16.280 I don't, I really I don't. 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:20.440 The CIA most likely destroyed anything. It would be obviously 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:22.160 groundbreaking decades ago. 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.720 So then what you're both saying is that in all 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.840 the remaining records, there's no smoking gun. 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.760 I don't think there's anything left that would be considered 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.320 a smoking gun the way we think of it. The 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.760 closest thing we have to a smoking gun is a 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.760 document that the Pentagon kept secret for almost forty years. 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:46.080 This document outlined a plan called Operation Northwoods. 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.879 The Joint chiefs of Staff drafted Operation Northwoods in nineteen 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.920 sixty two. It remained a secret until decades later, when 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:58.720 it was quietly declassified in compliance with the JFK Records Act. 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.639 But even after the document was declassified, the plan didn't 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:06.159 reach the public until two thousand and one, when the 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:10.639 investigative reporter James Bamford revealed the full details in his 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:15.520 book Body of Secrets. He calls Operation Northwoods quote what 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.960 may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.840 US government. Here's Jefferson Morley. 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:27.320 Operation Northwoods is one of the most significant revelations about 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:31.000 the JFK assassination to come out in the last twenty 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:31.719 five years. 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:36.800 Operation Northwoods pose this question, what if something were to 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.840 happen that would convince the American public that the US 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:45.119 had to invade Cuba, something that would force America's hand. 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.840 Well, stage a violent incident on a prominent target in 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.679 the United States, and we'll all arrange for it to 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.439 look like Castro did it. North Woods was what people 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.600 in the intelligence business call a pretext operation, where you 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.679 create a pretext for an action, or sometimes called a 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:05.119 false flag operation. 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:10.159 When you hear the terms false flag or conspiracy theory, 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:14.000 you think of people wearing tinfoil hats. But the US 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.600 government has had a history of false flag operations. In 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.680 eighteen ninety eight, the sinking of the USS Maine got 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:23.560 us into the Spanish American War. 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:29.280 The USS Maine was a US battleship that mysteriously exploded 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:33.440 in Havana, Cuba in eighteen ninety eight. Remember the main 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:37.400 was the famous rallying cry after the press claim that 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.480 Spain was to blame for the explosion which killed two 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:44.200 hundred and sixty eight sailors. When the government declared war 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:48.080 on Spain, they had the overwhelming support from the American public, 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.560 and that's how the Spanish American War started. 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.520 There was also the firing on US ships in the 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.919 Gulf of Tonkin in August of nineteen sixty four, which 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.240 got US into the Vietnam War, and in two thousand 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.080 and three, the assertion that Iraq had weapons of mass 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:08.520 destruction was used to justify the invasion of Iraq. False 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.280 Flags and disinformation can be very effective tools to rally 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:16.920 public support. This is in the actual Operation Northwoods document. 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.800 Here's what it says. The Joint Chiefs of Staff have 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:25.040 considered the attached memorandum for the pretexts which would provide 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:29.320 justification for US military intervention in Cuba. 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.800 The north Woods plans were very detailed. Will fake the 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.400 hijacking of a plane, and we'll take the plane somewhere 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.359 and we'll say that Castro did it understand? 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.320 People who would die on that plane would be American citizens. 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.760 This phrase is actually written into the north Woods plan. 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.879 Quote casualty lists in the US newspapers would cause a 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.920 helpful wave of national indignation. 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.840 Basically killing American citizens. That's astounding. 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:02.720 A hijacked plane wasn't the only option. Operation Northwoods lists 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:08.400 eleven other ideas for quote well coordinated incidents that would 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:13.640 look credible, including sinking ships and burning aircrafts. There's one 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:15.359 more part that I'd like you to read. 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.320 Okay, Here's what it says. The desired result from the 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:22.440 execution of this plan would be to place the United 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:27.240 States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:31.320 a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba, and to develop 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.119 an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:36.400 the Western Hemisphere. 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:40.720 Operation Northwoods was kept hidden from the Warrant Commission and 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:44.360 the House Select Committee. It was only declassified in nineteen 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:45.119 ninety seven. 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:48.600 Did Kennedy know about Operation Northwoods? 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:49.840 Kennedy knew about it. 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:51.360 What was Kennedy's response? 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:56.320 He rejected it in pretty brusque, almost rude terms. 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:01.680 But on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, a spectacular 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.680 attack on a US target occurred and the immediate response 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:10.840 was to blame Cuba. November twenty second, the day President 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:12.000 Kennedy was murdered. 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:17.000 So you're saying the plan that President Kennedy rejected was 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:19.240 the plan they used to kill him. 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:20.040 Right. 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.120 It was a violent act against the prominent American target, 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.320 and they had their allegedly pro Castro assassin, Lee Harvey 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.040 Oswald to take the blame. 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:33.960 And so that's what happens. Within hours of Kennedy's assassination, 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:39.000 Oswald is arrested and CIA propaganda assets go to work 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:44.000 to link him immediately to the Castro government, and those 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.880 efforts are quite successful. We have the headlines the next day, 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.679 pro Castro marksman kills the President, pro Cuban assassin. 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:55.919 Robert Blakey, former Chief counsel and staff director of the 0:22:55.960 --> 0:23:00.000 House Select Committee on Assassinations, told us something similar. 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:03.760