1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Mark Moss Show, 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: where we talk about the decentralized revolution, talking about the 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: way the world's changing, of course as we look at 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:11,159 Speaker 1: it through the lens of politics, finance, and technology, and 5 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: of course it's technology that changes the world more than 6 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: anything else, the way that we work and organize and communicate, 7 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: and of course the technology that's changing the world right 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: now is bitcoin and the decentralized technology that it has. Now, 9 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: you know that I try to bring to you some 10 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: education so you can understand the world a little bit differently, 11 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: and some breaking news. And today I have a special 12 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: guest so you can hear from somebody other than myself, 13 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 1: and we are coming to you from Jackson Hole, Wyoming, 14 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: where we are at Bitcoin ski Week, which is pretty amazing. 15 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: We're getting to score some epic powder and have some 16 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: amazing conversations and I grab someone to talk to you 17 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: about this as well. So Sam, thanks for taking the 18 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: time to come sit down with me. Yeah. Thanks Mark. 19 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: So Sam, you know you have I mean, you do 20 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: amazing research at Swan Swan Bitcoin for everybody that's listening, 21 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: and I guess you're doing research on just macro topics 22 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: But one of them where you've really kind of been 23 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: digging in deep is in the banking world, right, so BIS, 24 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: Bank of International Settlements, IMAF, etc. And I know one 25 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: of the areas you've been digging into is central bank 26 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: digital currencies quite a bit correct, Yeah, yeah, Now, first off, 27 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: I would say, do you think that CBDs CBDCs are 28 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: getting a lot of hype? Are they getting too much 29 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: hype or not enough hype? I would say, I'd say 30 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: the plausibility that one happens in the United States, it 31 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: is probably getting too much hype. I think globally, maybe 32 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: they're not getting as much hype. So I think there's 33 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: a big difference between the developments that are happening in 34 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: the United States versus globally. And if you look at 35 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: a couple of surveys from the Bank of International Settlements, 36 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,279 Speaker 1: so for instance, twenty nineteen, around twenty percent of central 37 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: bank surveyed said that they were likely to issue a 38 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: retail CBDC, and fast forward to today that numbers up 39 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: to sixty percent. So it's accelerating globally. But you know, 40 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: in the United States, I think there's a lot of 41 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: fear around the central bank digital currency. But there's a 42 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: ton of hurdles that would need to be leaped over 43 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: in order to issue one in the United States, and 44 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: there's a lot of pushback right now, and that's encouraging 45 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,839 Speaker 1: to see. So frame up for US a central bank 46 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: digital currency, because first off, I think most people already 47 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: understand this, haven't thought through this, but I think it's 48 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: something like eighty percent of dollars transactions are digital anyway. Yeah, 49 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: I don't want them to ban cash, but the truth is, 50 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: if I admit it, I don't really use cash. I 51 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: use debit cards and credit cards and wire transfers and ah. Right, 52 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,839 Speaker 1: and so the majority of transactions are already digital. So 53 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: we have digital dollars kind of, right, So what's the 54 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: big deal with a CBDC. So there's a difference between 55 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: the digital dollars that we have today and a retail CBDC, 56 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: And there's three main differences in my mind. One is 57 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: that a CBDC would be programmable, so you could have 58 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: smart contract functionality that would execute on specific conditions so 59 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: that you could do anything. You could say, hey, we 60 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: want this certain cohort pup the population to not be 61 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: able to buy this at a certain time, like and 62 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: so you'd have this granular level of control that is 63 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: not capable with the current digital dollars. The other difference 64 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: is that ninety five percent of digital dollars today are 65 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: privately issued. They're issued by commercial banks, okay, and so, 66 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: or they're on like PayPal or something like that, and 67 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: so they have default risk and liquidity risk that that 68 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: company could go under, like Papal could under, like PayPal 69 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: could go under, right, and or the bank or the bank, 70 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: just like in the global financial crisis, a lot of 71 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: people savings. They realize that those digital dollars are at risk. 72 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: They have those risks. A central bank digital currency would 73 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: be different. It would be a liability of the central 74 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: bank itself, and so technically it would be a safer 75 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: form of digital dollars because the central bank itself can't 76 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: really default technically because it has access to a quote 77 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: unquote money printer even though they don't technically print money, 78 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: they would be able to work with the Treasury or 79 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: something happen and flood the market with liquidity, and so 80 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have that risk. Better. I think it's it's 81 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: that's their argument for why it's better. That's why they 82 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: say they want to do that. And so it's kind 83 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: of like a tough question because there's so many other 84 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: risks to essential bank digital currency around privacy, around surveillance. 85 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: Like I don't think the risk the risk outweigh the benefits, 86 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: is what I'm saying. Yeah, And so I can't think 87 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: of the third one off the top of my head 88 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: right now. But those are the two big differences. Oh 89 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: that The third one is it could be a transmission 90 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: channel for monetary policy and fiscal policy, and you'd be 91 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: able to tax every single transaction that people make. So 92 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: right now, take a piece off the top tape, a 93 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: piece off the top of every single transaction. So let's 94 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: just say hypothetically that cash would disappear, and it cash 95 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: is declining rapidly over the last say ten years. And 96 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: so if cash is gone, even if I gave you 97 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: a quote unquote twenty dollars just because you know, we 98 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: made a bet on a sports game or something, they 99 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: would technically be able to tax that transaction so it 100 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: could bring more revenue to the state. And so that's 101 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: those three main differences between central bank digital currencies and 102 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: private and private dollars. Today, digital dollars is the transmission 103 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: channel for monetary, physical, and tax policy. It's programmable as 104 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: well as it doesn't have default in liquidity risk, you know, 105 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: on the taxing transactions piece right now, like we've seen 106 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: the growth of venmo or PayPal, right, so venmo, like 107 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: I can venmo you directly. It goes from my venmo 108 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: to my credit card, credit card to my bank, my 109 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: bank to your bank, your bank to your credit card, 110 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: your to your venmo. Right, there's whatever, four to six 111 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: people in the middle of that, and each one of 112 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: them taxes. Yeah, the transaction. Right. So if the government 113 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: were to the government to fed whatever we want to 114 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: call that, were to provide the CBDC channel, they're technically 115 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: all of those in one so the venmo, the credit card, 116 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: the bank, whatever, And if they took the same amount 117 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: of fee that was already being charged there, that could 118 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: be like the tax or the transaction feed let's call it. 119 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: That might be one way to look at it directly 120 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: to the state, and then that would be a big 121 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: revenue generator for the state, right and it wouldn't be 122 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: any more than we'd be paying right now in venmo. 123 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, let's essentially yeah, and so technically it would 124 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: be safer too, right, because of that most risk that 125 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't have that I explained, and this is why banks, 126 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: the banking industry, and companies like PayPal are so worried 127 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: about essential bank digital currency being issued because it would 128 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: disintermediate them. It would technically be a better option, safer option, 129 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: and the thought would be that a lot of funds 130 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: would flow out of their you know, their companies into 131 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: the central bank digital currency. So if if we stay 132 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: with some of the problems, first of all, actually, before 133 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: we go into the problems, let me ask another question 134 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: from a from a global macroeconomic standpoint, Like, the governments 135 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 1: of the world are going broke. The FEDS fighting inflation, 136 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: they're losing and their fight against inflation, the government US government, 137 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: the treasury is going broke. All the governments of the 138 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: world are basically going broke. And so a lot of 139 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: people think that the CBDC is the way that they 140 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 1: solve that. So like, hey, they're at the fiscal cliff, 141 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: and so what they're gonna do is they're going to 142 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: create this event and they're gonna switch out and put 143 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: everybody onto a CBDC, and that's how they're going to 144 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: fix the problem. I don't see how that fixes the 145 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: problem though. I don't think it fixes the problem at all. 146 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: I think it would be the exact same problem in 147 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: a new shiny wrapper that has embedded surveillance. I mean, 148 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: it would be the exact same system. And they're looking 149 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: at if you look at the design, they're leading designs, 150 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: it's all out in the open. They write these research papers. 151 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: They are recreating the current system. It's an intermediated central 152 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: bank digital currency design. It's the same monetary system with 153 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: all the same problems, just with increased control and surveillance. 154 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: I mean it really is. So it wouldn't solve any problems. 155 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: So the problems that got us here are one, they 156 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: print too much money. I mean that that's ultimately if 157 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: we want to boil it down, right yea, and so 158 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: and then you said the transmission problems, and I don't 159 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: know exactly what you're talking about. Potentially, like let's say 160 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: during the COVID of pandemic, they had a problem getting 161 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: money out into this little inefficient inefficient, right, So if 162 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: this makes it more efficient, that means they can put 163 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: even more money into the system. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And 164 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: there's critics of CBDCs and one of them as this 165 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: advisor for the Chicago Fed, and he wrote a comment 166 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: in response to the Federal Reserves white paper on CBDCs, 167 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: and he said that this will actually expand the balance 168 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: sheet because they'll have to issue CBDCs, and if their 169 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: liabilities on the Federal Reserve balance sheet, this could expand 170 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: the balance sheet even more at a time where they're 171 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: trying to regain credibility and reduce their balance sheet. So 172 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: to actually it would do the opposite. It would actually 173 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: just they would print more money. And they're thinking about 174 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: how do we get banks to go along with this, 175 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: and one of their proposed solutions to that problem is, oh, 176 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: we'll just pay him. We'll give them more scentible print 177 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: money and pay the banks so that they won't go 178 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: out of business. And so they have all these problems 179 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: of issue in a CBDCs, and a lot of their 180 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: solutions to those problems are to print more money, which is, 181 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: like you said, the root cause. Yeah, if you're just 182 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: tuning in, you are listening to the Mark Mo Show, 183 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: we're talking about the decentralized Revolution. I'm sitting down with 184 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: Sam from Swan Bitcoin. We're talking about CBDC Central Bank 185 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: digital currencies. We're gonna dig more into the problems, maybe 186 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: non existing solutions, and then we're gonna talk about the 187 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: reality of what a risk we have potentially in the 188 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: United States and other countries. There's some big news that 189 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: broke this week about another country launching one. We're gonna 190 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: talk about that. We're back with all that and more 191 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: in a minute. Don't go away, we're gonna be right back. 192 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: All right, welcome back. If you're just tune in, you 193 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: were listening to the Mark mo Show. We're talking about 194 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: the decentralized Revolution, and I'm in the studio with Sam 195 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: Callahan from Swan Bitcoin. He's the what the macro analyst, 196 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: thereat lead analyst, lead analysts. Yeah, anyway, he spends a 197 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: lot of time researching these topics. Let's just let's just 198 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: say that, right, and too much time. Right, that's his job. 199 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: He can get paid to research these things. And specifically, 200 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: you've been really been digging into banking. So we're talking 201 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: about central bank digital currencies. Now back to that, we 202 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: were talking about how they don't really solve any of 203 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: the problem. So when people think, oh, well they're gonna 204 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: they're gonna crash the markets and switches to a CBDC. 205 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: It's like that doesn't really do anything. I guess you 206 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: could maybe look at like when gold used to be 207 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: money pre nineteen thirty three, and then they switched everybody 208 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: to a fiat money and then they devalued it, so 209 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: everyone basically still had the same dollars, they just bought less. 210 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: So I suppose they could say, through some sort of 211 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: liquidity event, like the banks are broke, FDIC is going 212 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: to step in and give you money, but instead they 213 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: give you a new CBDC money and now steve value 214 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: because now they don't see FDIC doesn't have enough money. 215 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: Obviously they are like a nine percent ratio or something 216 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: something like that, something like that, so they have to 217 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: print away more money. So they're gonna give you your money, 218 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: here's your money, here's your hundred thousand back, but it 219 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: only buys you forty thousand worth of goods or something 220 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: like that. Well, they'll I think what they'll do is 221 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: if they do go along with this retail CBDC and 222 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: issue it, they'll attach some kind of incentive stimulus, right UBI, 223 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: And that's to try to get people to use it. 224 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: And this is what other essential banks around the world 225 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: have done, so China did, that's Nigeria, Bahamas. They all 226 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: have these these random incentives. It's like, you know, it's 227 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: like somebody in a van trying to give candy to 228 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: a kid, like, don't worry, it's safe. You know, here 229 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: you go, and people might fall for that. But the 230 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: adoption rates of other central bank digital currency have been 231 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: extremely low, extremely disappointing because people don't want them. And 232 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: you look at the proponents of them, and they have 233 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: a lot of arguments why is CBDC would be good. 234 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: One of them is financial inclusion, promote financial inclusion. One 235 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: of them is more efficient payments. One of them is 236 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: it'll actually improve financial stability. Those are the three main ones, 237 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: and when you look into the data, it actually does 238 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: none of those things and actually worsens all three of 239 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: those things. All right, So once you dig into the data, 240 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: dig into the facts, you realize that this is just 241 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: a bad idea, Like if we look past the surveillance 242 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: and the nineteen eighty four kind of style, what this 243 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: would enable, it doesn't actually do any of the things 244 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: that they think perceived benefits. So it's really just all risk. 245 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: It's all risk to do this, and it takes a 246 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: ton of time and resources to try to research it 247 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: and build it, and it's a huge waste of time. 248 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: And that's why I pushed back against them. A huge 249 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: waste of time, resources, energy, money, all those things. There's 250 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: no perceived benefit from the greater good. There's perceived benefit 251 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: from authoritarian standpoint. Yes, let's talk more about sort of 252 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: this idea that they're hoping to increase, which would be 253 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: greater inclusion. So I think it was in like twenty 254 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: sixteen there was like two billion adults in the world 255 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: that had no access to banking. I think that numbers 256 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: come down to billion and a half or something like that. 257 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: But people all around the world, and if we take 258 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: off our well, I guess it's a good question. When 259 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: we talk about bitcoin and really global macro, we think 260 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: about it from a global standpoint, not a very US standpoint. 261 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: And so if I think about this banking problem of 262 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: being people under banked, it's a global problem, and most 263 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: of those probably billion and a half people around the 264 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: world don't have access to banking and typically don't have 265 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: permission to join banking. So if you're a fifteen year 266 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: old kid from I ran like you can't get a 267 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: bank account, right, but these are maybe more not global issues, 268 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: they're more local issues. So I saw this week Australia's 269 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: Central Bank is set to launch a live pilot of 270 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: a central bank digital currency in the coming months, According 271 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: to a Jane statement from the Reserve Bank of Australia, 272 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: a research project to explore potential use cases in economic 273 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: benefits of a central bank digital currency CBDC in Australia. 274 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: So while we may see countries like Australia going with it, 275 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 1: or you said earlier you think like the ECB might 276 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: be next, maybe in the US we don't have it. 277 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: So this isn't really as much of a global phenomenon. 278 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 1: It's more of like a local Well yeah, I give 279 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: it an extremely low probability of a retail CBDC in 280 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: the United States for a lot of reasons. One is 281 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: just where the land of the free, and this is 282 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: like really a not anti freedom technology, is how I 283 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: would call it. It leads to censorship, leads to surveillance, 284 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: infringes on the rights and liberties of individuals, and it's 285 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: really against American values and you're seeing a lot of 286 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: pushback in Congress and then the Federal Reserve actually can't 287 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: legally issue currency, so there would have to be new 288 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: legislation passed to approve of CBDC. And I just think 289 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: there's a ton of pushback. If you look at the 290 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: public comments in response to the Fed's white paper. I 291 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: looked through every single one of them, and seventy three 292 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: percent of those comments I deemed negative there against CBDCs. 293 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: And I was really lenient in terms of what I 294 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: considered positive comments. So seventy three percent of those comments 295 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: were negative. The American people do not want this thing. 296 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: And then there's there's other reasons why in America it 297 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: just doesn't make sense, the financial inclusion. The FDIC did 298 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: a study on American households. Four point five percent of 299 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: American households still remain the bank today, and the reasons 300 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: in the survey from the FBIC were number one, high 301 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: minimal cost to open a bank account, number two, privacy concerns, 302 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: Number three they don't trust banks, and number four was 303 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: high unpredictable fees. Now, essential bank digital currency would do 304 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: none of those things. They wouldn't improve any of those things. 305 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: They would actually worsen them, because like let's take fees 306 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: and let's take high minimal costs to open up bank account. 307 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: Those two reasons it would cost money for commercial banks 308 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: to implement a CBDC system. It would take compliance costs 309 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: with a MLK by C, it would take operational costs 310 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: to build out the technology in the system to be 311 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: interoperable with a cbd system, to create a digital wallet, 312 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: to maintain the wallets, those all they would all cost 313 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: money for these banks to do, and so the logical 314 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: conclusion is that they will pass on those costs in 315 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: the form of higher fees for their users, for their consumers, 316 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: and so it would actually lead to higher fees and 317 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: it would actually lead to higher expenses and costs for consumers, 318 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: which are the reasons they're in bank in the first place. 319 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: And specifically, it would hurt small community banks. And small 320 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: community banks are absolutely critical for serving underserved communities in 321 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: America in terms of critical financial services. They make up 322 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: fifteen percent of total loans, but they make up thirty 323 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: one percent of loans to small businesses and thirty four 324 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: percent of loans to farmers. Wow. Right, So this is 325 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: they would have a really hard time implementing a CDC 326 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: CBDC system compared to larger banks because they don't have 327 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: the profit margins, they don't have the technical capabilities, and 328 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: so they would be forced to close. And this is 329 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: the continuation of a trend of bank consolidation over the 330 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: last twenty years. Right, So, like that's why it would 331 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: really worsen financial inclusion, even though they say it's going 332 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: to promote it. It would cause these small and community 333 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: banks to close up shop worse, like causing more financial 334 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: it would cause financial exclusion. And so that's why I'm 335 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: pretty passionate about this because I just think it's such 336 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: a bad idea. It's such a bad idea. There's like 337 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: no no positives in like all. But to your point 338 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: about the consolidation of banks, you know, for a lot 339 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: of people who haven't spent a lot of time thinking 340 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: about this, the consolidation or the centralization of all these 341 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: decision making capabilities is a big problem. So central bank, 342 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, commercial or community banks know about their local community. Yeah, so, like, hey, 343 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: I want to start avocado stand well in California, Like, 344 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: that's probably pretty good business. If I want to do 345 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: in Wyoming, it's probably not. And that's that local bank 346 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: should know the difference of my local climate, economy things 347 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: like that and should be making those decisions on a 348 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: local basis. And so as you start to consolidate those 349 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: movements up and so now it's just one central bank, 350 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: the FED going to tell me whether I should start 351 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: avocado stand or not, like they don't have the information 352 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: to do that. And so next thing, you know, small 353 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: businesses suffer and it goes to big banks. If you're 354 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: just tuning in, you're listening to the Markmas Show, we're 355 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: talking about the decentralized revolution, of course each and every week. 356 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: But I'm down sitting down with Sam Callahan. We are 357 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: talking about central bank digital currencies. We're gonna talk about banking. 358 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: I want to talk about some other risks in banking 359 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: as well, and then we'll speculate a little bit about 360 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: some of the probabilities of some of these things happening. 361 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: So we had lots to cover some very important stuff, 362 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: some stuff he's super passionate about, and you should be 363 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: passionate about as well, because this is going to affect 364 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: you if you're not educated it. We'll be back with 365 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: all that and more in a minute. Don't go away, 366 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: all right, welcome back. If you just tune in, you 367 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: are listening to the Mark Moss Show, sitting down with 368 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: Sam Calhan. We are talking about central bank digital currencies. 369 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: He's the lead analyst over at swan Bitcoin. They put 370 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: out amazing research. Go check them out. Swan Bitcoin easy 371 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: place to get your bitcoin dollar cost average into bitcoin 372 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: as well, So check that out. But Sam, so we 373 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: were talking about, you know, all these things, and before 374 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: the breakoff, was talking about this. You were talking about 375 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: the consolidation of the banking and I was kind of 376 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: adding on and how that if we take the decision 377 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 1: making away, this decentralized decision making from local banks that 378 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: have local knowledge and try to consolidate to a federal system, 379 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: that's going to be very bad for local businesses. And 380 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: really it would consolidate all businesses where big businesses, big 381 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: national based businesses might get the funding and local don't. Yeah, 382 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: and when you have consolidation of the banking industry, you 383 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: have decreased competition, right, So like when you have only 384 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: four megabanks, which there's a chart after the global financial 385 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: crisis where it just shows the consolidation into basically four 386 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: or five megabanks in America, right or basically globally. And 387 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: when there's decreased competition, you can have exorbitant fees. They 388 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: can get away with that. They have this thing called 389 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: junk fees, and it's a huge problem. It's the fourth reason, 390 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: top reason why people remain unbanked is high, unpredictable fees. 391 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: And I think that's a result of the consolidation. And 392 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: so if CBDCs will make it harder for these small 393 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: community banks to stay in business, it'll lead to higher 394 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: fees because there's less competition in the banking industry. Now 395 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of the risks for 396 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: a minute, because you touched on it, but you didn't 397 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: really get expand on them. So like we saw like 398 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: MasterCard is piloting a program to track your carbon score, right, 399 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: so that's a problem. So like potentially with this ESG 400 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: and all these carbon the metrics that are coming out, 401 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: I could say, hey, your carbon score is too high, 402 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: your credit card doesn't work, your bank account doesn't work, 403 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,479 Speaker 1: You've you've gone over your allotment of meat. So we 404 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: saw there was a study done in the European Union 405 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: just in the last couple of weeks and it basically 406 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: came out and they it was a research report. It 407 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: was done on behalf of the government, so it's not 408 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: policy yet. But they basically said, what is the right 409 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: amount of meat for people to eat? And I forget 410 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: the numbers, but it was something like avert person eats 411 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: like two hundgram and they say, should eat eight. How 412 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: much travel should each person have and they said I 413 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: think they said each person should be limited to do 414 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: I want to say it was one trip every two 415 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: years and then all these crazy metrics. Now this was 416 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: just a research report, right, not policy, but if they 417 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: decided those things should be policy or like they're talking 418 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: about these fifteen minute cities, right, yeah, so hey, you've 419 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: driven more than you can drive, so now you can't 420 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: get gas, can't get more of it. I mean that's 421 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: where this goes, right, It is where this goes. And 422 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: that's the programmable nature of CBDC. So I don't think 423 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: people understand that it would be built into the money itself, 424 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: Like just think of your cash as having an on 425 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: and off switch and all of these restrictions and all 426 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: of these controls. It would allow the government to use 427 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: money itself to push social agenda behavior behavioral economics. Yeah, 428 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: and that's that's that's a terrible world, right, Like we 429 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: don't want to be told what to do, and the 430 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: freedom to transact, it's a prerequisite for a lot of freedoms. 431 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: It underpins it all, It underpins it all. So I 432 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: don't think people quite understand the risks here because when 433 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: what we're talking about a CBDC, what we're really talking 434 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: about is fundamental rights and fundamental rights to transact, fundamental 435 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: rights of privacy which would be infringed upon with this technology. 436 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: And they know these risks in their own research. They 437 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: talk about these risks all the time. But they say, well, 438 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: we can't have privacy like cash because we have to 439 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: stop money laundering, right, criminal activity mlk i C. We 440 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: have to comply with that. That's despite the fact that 441 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: a KYC there's nothing to stop financial crimes, you know, 442 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: and maybe even helps it, and maybe even helps it. 443 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: The fence and report showed that the big banks laundered 444 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: like two trillion dollars or something like that. Yeah, and 445 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: they paid minimal fees and fines, and it's like, really 446 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: that inclusion that they have allows them to get away 447 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: with it, right, And so they're basically saying that they're 448 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: not gonna have privacy built into this thing. They say 449 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: Actually there's a paper by the BIZ titled Embedded Surveillance. Yea. 450 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: So it's a serious issue and that's why I'm passionate 451 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: about it, and that's why I just try to raise awareness, 452 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: even though I think there's a low probability of it 453 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: happening in the United States. I think this is one 454 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: of this is a big issue that people should know 455 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: more about because it's happening. The research and development is accelerating, 456 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: and even in the United States, the Federal Reserve just 457 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: had a pilot. They just expanded their pilot with the 458 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: Monetary Authority of Singapore to start piloting how one would 459 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: transact with the CBDC. So they just keep kind of 460 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: snowballing it, and even though there's a lot of pushback 461 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: from the public and city and congressmen like Tom Emmer, 462 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. He just passed an act. I think it's 463 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: the Anti Surveillance Act or something like that. Cruise has 464 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: also put a couple of things forward. Yeah, yeah, and 465 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: that Warren Davidson spoke out about it. So it's starting 466 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: to gain traction and that's encouraging to see. Now let's 467 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: talk about incentives. So we like to talk about incentives 468 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: a lot. Show me the incentives, I'll show you the outcome. 469 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: Charliemonger said, I think so we have like the people. 470 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: The players would be the people us, right, the retail users. 471 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: We have the banks, We have the FED which is 472 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: maybe part of the banks, and then we have like 473 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: the government. Like these are kind of the four parties 474 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: maybe that we would think about and the incentives. So 475 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: the people, our incentive is to try to keep as 476 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: much freedom as we have and try to keep our 477 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: costs low, predictable, privacy, all those things. So of course 478 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: we don't want that. The banks wouldn't really want this 479 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: because to the point you've made, most banks can't keep 480 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: up with it. Even if they could, they don't want 481 00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: to spend the money, time resources to do it a 482 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: lot of and won't be able to do it, and 483 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: so effectively this could cut the banks out altogether. And 484 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: we have accounts directly with the FED, and all the 485 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: commercial banks are gone. So the banks don't really want it, 486 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: right well, even if so, they've kind of moved past 487 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: the design of an account directly at the FED. Because 488 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: the FED doesn't have it, they don't have the abilities 489 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: to serve a customer facing roles. They want that the 490 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: commercial banks to keep that because they don't want all 491 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: the risks, the operational risks, the security risks they want 492 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: the commercial banks still evolve that what they want is 493 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: a two tiered intermediated system similar to what we have, 494 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: where there's just a little CBDC account at the commercial banks. 495 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: But even then they would disintermediate the banks because it 496 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: would take their bank deposits out of those you know, 497 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: those deposits would move from deposits at commercial banks into 498 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: CBDC accounts, And deposits at commercial banks are their main 499 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: source of funding, makes up seventy one percent of their 500 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,719 Speaker 1: bank funding, and it's their cheapest form of funding. So 501 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: if it flows out of their deposits into a CBDC account, 502 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: it would still disintermediate the don't they park most of 503 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: that back at the FED anyway, And that's what the 504 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: reverse repot is. Yeah, So this is when they're when 505 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: they're designed, they're trying to figure out how to make 506 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: it work. It's so complicated, and if they start they're like, oh, well, 507 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:12,719 Speaker 1: we can do this, we can do this. But the 508 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: fact is the fact that it has all these issues 509 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: before it even comes into existence. You have to ask 510 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,239 Speaker 1: yourself why would even risk it? Like why even if 511 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: they're all these perceived problems already exists and they're trying 512 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: to come up with like patchwork solutions before it even happens, 513 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: Like why why go through with it? So the people 514 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: don't want it, the banks don't want it. The government 515 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: probably wants it because they get the power and the 516 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: control correct and they can control monetary policy easier. So 517 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting to see what's going on in Nigeria. 518 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: You mentioned Nigeria. They rolled out the e niara and 519 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: they've used, you said, like the van with the candy 520 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: or whatever they I call it. They've used the carrot 521 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: and the stick. So the carrot was, hey, we'll give 522 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: you discounts on your taxi trips and your petticab things whatever, 523 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: and then not enough people were using it. And what's 524 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: interesting is when you look at some of the comments 525 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: of why people are like, we already have bitcoin, yep, right, 526 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: we already have that. And this is no different than 527 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,719 Speaker 1: the nyara. And the reason why we don't use than 528 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: auras because it loses, you debase it, it loses, right, 529 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: So we don't use nara because you base it Eatra 530 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: is the same thing, and you're still going to be 531 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: base it the same way, So why would we do that? 532 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: And we already have a a bitcoin. So the carrot didn't work. 533 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: So then came the stick, and the stick was, now 534 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: what I think, You get no more cash withdraws than 535 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: like twenty five dollars a day, so you can withdraw 536 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: eat nyara, but you can't withdraw cash. So that was 537 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: kind of the carret in the stick. But what I 538 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: like is the people's response to that, which is like, look, 539 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: this is no different than what we already have and 540 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: we don't need that, and we already have bitcoin for 541 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: digital transactions and things like that. It's like they don't 542 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: trust them, right, that's the underlying trust, and they've abused 543 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: their trust, and so it doesn't matter if it's a 544 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: new technology. They don't like the people that are issuing it. 545 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: They don't trust them after years and years of harm 546 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: that they've gone through because of their policies. And then Bitcoin, 547 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: you know, I talked about these problems of like financial inclusion, 548 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: Bitcoin actually solves them, right, So it already has or 549 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: it already has right. So like Bitcoin's open, it's permission 550 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: lists you don't need there's no minimal cost to open 551 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: up a quote unquote account in bitcoin. The fees are 552 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: like transparent and predictable and lower, and so it fixes 553 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: a lot of these underlying problems of why people remain unbanked. Yeah, 554 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: I want to talk more about that in a minute 555 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: when we come back. I also want to talk about 556 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: the role stable coins might play today and maybe in 557 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: the future, So I want to talk about that in 558 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: a minute. You're listening to the Mark mass Show sitting 559 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: down with Sam Callahan from Swan Bitcoin talking about central 560 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: bank digital currencies, the good, the bad, the ugly, and 561 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: the dangers. We'll be back with more in a minute. 562 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: Don't go away, We right back, all right, Welcome back. 563 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: If you just tune in, you are listening to the 564 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: Mark Moss Show sitting down with Sam Callahan, the lead 565 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: analyst over at Swan Bitcoin and make it really easy 566 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: to get bitcoin if you wanted to, If you want 567 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: to buy a little bit and want a DCA into 568 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: a dollar cost average, which you should think about. We're 569 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: down in Jackson, Whole, Wyoming at the Bitcoin Ski Week 570 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: and we're giving you some important information between some runs. 571 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: Hopefully we're gonna get it in the powder. But we're 572 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: talking about central big digital currencies, the good, the bad, 573 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: the ugly, the scary. You need to be informed because 574 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: this is something that's gonna could potentially affect your life, 575 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: and we should all be arming ourselves with knowledge and 576 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: trying to push back as best as we can. Now, 577 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: two things I want to talk about. One you were 578 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: saying right before we took a break all the things 579 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: that they're hoping to solve with the CBDC, which is 580 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: more inclusion, meaning more people have access to it. A 581 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: problem is if you live in certain parts of the world, 582 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: like there may be no bank within hours from you, 583 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: right so it's hard to get a bank account, or 584 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: you don't have the proper ID or from the wrong countries. 585 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: There's all these reasons why inclusion is there. The fees obviously, 586 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: like an El Salvador with the first time I visit 587 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: a bitcoin beach, what I hadn't realized before because I've 588 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: been there before is that they have access to banks, 589 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: but because they don't have enough money that the cost 590 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: to have the bank account is so high that they 591 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: can't afford it. And the merchants they don't do enough 592 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: volume to have a payment processor, so they just don't 593 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 1: have banks. So there's lots of reasons why. So they 594 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: want to solve that the financial inclusion. They want to 595 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: make it easier to send money across border, right, right, 596 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: except for you'll solve all these different currencies, so the 597 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: border problem will still be there, so it doesn't actually 598 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: solve that. So all the problems that they want to 599 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: solve have already been solved, both bitcoin and then mostly 600 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: with stable coins as well. Yeah, and I think that's 601 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: it's the private sector, right, providing innovation, which is what 602 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: the private sector is great at, responding to user needs 603 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: in the marketplace. When you have public institutions that try 604 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: to force innovation top down that nobody asked for. Now, 605 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: I don't see anybody raising their hand saying I really 606 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: want to CBDC with built in surveillance and restrictions. Yeah, 607 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: what you know. But bitcoin is being adopted at a 608 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: grassroots level because people are or finding value in it 609 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: and people are actually using it because it solves those 610 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: problems and it works. It just works all right. So 611 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: you could be hours from a bank and most people 612 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: have smartphones. Now majority of the world has smartphones. We're 613 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: full adoption basically, so I can just download an app 614 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: and instantly receive payment as a merchant or a retail person, 615 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: I don't have to travel three hours to a bank, right, 616 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's solved it instantly. Yeah. And the 617 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: cross border payments. I like that you brought that up 618 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: because that's one of their big advocate. Advocates for CBDCs 619 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: say it will help that, but like you said, it 620 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: doesn't fix the underlying problems of why cross border payments 621 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: are still slow and expensive, which is fragmented data standards, 622 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: compliance with different mL KYC policies of different jurisdictions, differences 623 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: in time zones of these correspondent banks. Like Bitcoin solves that. 624 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: The Lightning working hours, Yes, Lightning network solves that. And 625 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: so it's it's just they are ignoring this private sector 626 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: solution because it disintered mediates then because it removes the 627 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: need of inter areas entirely. So how how is Lightning 628 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: solved that? Well, Lightning those they don't know, people don't 629 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: Lightning is a second layer payment protocol built on top 630 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: of Bitcoin that allows for basically feeless, uh instant payments. 631 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: It's it's how we solved this problem of cross border 632 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: payments as well as micropayments, because you can do it 633 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: with final settlement, meaning nobody can stop it. It's censorship resistant, 634 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: and it's fast, and it's cheap and you can use 635 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: it all built on top of bitcoin. And so the 636 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: Lightning network is what you know, Alsavodor is using it. 637 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: People in Africa are using it to send payments across 638 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: borders within Africa at a fraction of the cross and 639 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: these remittance fees are so high in Africa, and with 640 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: these cross border payments that the savings that people have 641 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: when they use Lightning is substantial, substantial. Think about what 642 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: he said, I mean, just to make it easy if 643 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: you're not if you're not following along. Is that like 644 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: Venmo is like a way to send dollars on top 645 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: of your bank account. Yeah, Lightning is a way to 646 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: send bitcoin on top of your bigcoin account. So I 647 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: think about it kind of in those terms. The other 648 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: thing I would say is that maybe you don't understand 649 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: how this works. So like you're in the United States 650 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: and you've got Venmo, like cool, whatever, But the lady 651 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: that cuts my hair is from Afghanistan. She moved here 652 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: from Afghanistan. I don't know, twenty years ago whatever. And 653 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: of course we know the you know, US was in 654 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: war over there for twenty years. We pulled out and 655 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: it was a big tragedy whatever. And so now the 656 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: Taliban took over and they took over the banking system, 657 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: and she still knows like women friends there and she 658 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: wants to give them money, and she has no way 659 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: to give them money because if she sends them money, 660 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: the Taliban would just take it. So there's this massive 661 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: humanitarian crisis going on where women specifically in Afghanistan are 662 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: being you know, oppressed in a big way, and she 663 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,479 Speaker 1: from Afghanistan wants to help them, and she has no 664 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: way to give them money. And yet she could just 665 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: transact enlightning and from her bed literally could send it 666 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: free and instantly, and there's no way for it to 667 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: be intercepted by the Taliban, yep, and completely permissionless right permission, 668 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: So they can just send it. No, they don't have 669 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: to ask permission from the banks to send it. They 670 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: can just do it peer to peer. And that's the 671 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: power of bitcoin, right. I think that's the from the 672 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: get go that's been of the value proposition of bitcoin. 673 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: I think it's just so important to think about stories 674 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: like that, And it's one reason why I really believe 675 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: that people need to travel more, because sometimes we get 676 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: really stuck in this US centric viewpoint where like I 677 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: don't even tell you how much my hotel room is 678 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: here in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, that I took on a 679 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: plane in first class to sit here, and I'm sipping 680 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: twenty dollars drinks at the bar, and like, what do 681 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: I need different money for? Right? Yeah, But like when 682 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: you start thinking about these poor women in Afghanistan or 683 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: even in El Salvador for that matter, Right, so I 684 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: think it's like thirty percent of their GDP is remittances. Yeah, 685 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: something like that. Right, So the thirty percent of the 686 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: revenue is remittances. And if you for me to send 687 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: someone money and to Elsava or wherever, like I'd have 688 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: to go to my bank cash, go to Walmart or 689 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: the gross store standline fill out the forms for Western Union. 690 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: That's gonna take me an hour. I don't want to 691 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: do that. And then they may have to get on 692 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: a bus and ride a bus for three or four 693 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: hours to get to the city to get the cash, 694 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: and then ride back three or four hours with the cash. 695 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: Hopefully don't get robbed and then they pay depends on 696 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: the transaction, but maybe twenty third of that in fees. Yeah, 697 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: and now with bitcoin, I can do it from my 698 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: bedroom and they can receive it in their bedroom. No bus, 699 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: no no risk, no fees, no nothing. Yeah, it's a 700 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: completely antiquated system. And bitcoin is like a ferrari and 701 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: they're still using a horse and buggy like that's or 702 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: lightnings like a ferrari, I guess you could say. And 703 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, the average cost for cross border payments is 704 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: around six six point three eight percent, So to send 705 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: two hundred dollars, you have that in fees on average, 706 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: and it takes about two to three days on average. 707 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: And so that's a lot of money for somebody who's 708 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: you know, a poor family in Africa trying to send 709 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: money back home to their other family. That's like that 710 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 1: may not sound like a lot to a West Center 711 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: who has a lot of privilege, but that is substantial 712 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: amount of fees to pay just to send money back home. 713 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: It's a substantial part of their paychecks. So that's this 714 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: is why bitcoin can empower people and promote financial inclusion 715 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: and promote individual economic empowerment. Yeah, they say, there's what 716 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: does this saying a standing army is no match for 717 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,959 Speaker 1: a good idea whose time has come or something like that, right, 718 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: And so I think when I look at businesses and 719 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: I look at technologies, you have technologies that are improvement offers. 720 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: They're offering you a little improvement off of what they have. 721 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: And then we have opportunity switches where it's something completely 722 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 1: different and that's usually going to be, you know, a 723 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: hundred times or a thousand times better. And when you 724 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: have that, there's just no way to stop it. And 725 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: when you think about the Afghanistan, or you think about 726 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: the El Salvador, you think about North Korea, you know, 727 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: or even in the US, problems we might have like 728 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: how do you send fifteen cents on an on the internet? Right? Yeah, 729 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: there's just no other way. There's just not Yeah, and 730 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: so it's not just a good idea that's come it's 731 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: solved the problem that has no other solution. I mean, 732 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: it's a it's a groundbreaking technology, yeah, you know, it's 733 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,959 Speaker 1: it's it's one of those technologies that doesn't come around 734 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: often that will change everything. And that's what I believe, 735 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: similar to the Internet and similar to these grand, big ideas, 736 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: big technologies that reshape our world, and that's what I 737 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: think bitcoin is. Yeah. Well, if you're just tuning in, 738 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark Maas Show and sitting down 739 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: with Sam Callahan. He is the lead analyst over at 740 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: swan Bitcoin. Check them out. I use them. It's a 741 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 1: great place to get bitcoin if you want to do that, 742 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: they'll send it directly to your cold wallet and check 743 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: out Sam's research when you're over there. You know. A 744 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: couple parting thoughts, I just leave, is one really really 745 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: take the time to think about the CBDCs. I'm not 746 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: a big fan of politics and voting. I don't think 747 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: that it holds a lot of power. But at the 748 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: same time, it's what we have and as long as 749 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: I'm breathing, I'm swinging, and so we might as well 750 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: use it. We might as well push back. We might 751 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: as well slow the tide as much as we can. 752 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: So do that, you know, talk to your friends, to 753 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 1: your family, your co workers, push back on the politicians 754 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: in your local area. Tell them you don't want to CBDCs, 755 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: make your voice be heard, and opt out. Buy some bitcoin. Anyway, 756 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: That's what I got. Thanks, for listening until next time.