WEBVTT - #498 Maggie Freleng with Rosa Jimenez 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.800 All Rosa jumenaz Ever wanted was to be a mom. 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:12.840 I read in an article somewhere about you that your 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.800 daughter has a rose tattoo for you. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:23.040 Oh yeah, she does. To say that in the way 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.560 that you always represent me by Roses. 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.680 I first spoke to Rosa in twenty twenty for my 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.640 podcast Unjust and Unsolved. She was in prison at the time. 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.520 This call is being recorded and this subject to monitoring. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.240 I was actually scheduled to meet with Rosa in person, 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.120 but because of COVID nineteen, all prisons were on lockdown. 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:45.560 She called me the day we were supposed to meet. 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:48.400 I'm so bombs. I really wanted to meet you in person. 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.120 They say, extend that day. 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:52.800 Are you staying safe? 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.880 Yeah? Yeah, I was six the first week bomb Okay. 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:01.680 Now, Rosa was lucky in prison. COVID nineteen was devastating. 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:05.240 Incarcerated people died at over three times the rate of 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:09.520 the free population. So I have cho and Rosa was 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:14.120 at the highest risk. She was immunal, compromised from kidney failure. 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.520 When she first got to prison, Rosa got hurt working 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.000 in the fields picking vegetables and mowing grass. It was 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:24.520 lots of walking and physical labor, and one day she 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.920 felt a pain in her hip and went to the doctor. 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.280 It was telling that you looked with the doctors, they 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.400 tell you that you were lazy and that you didn't 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:32.960 want to work. 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.520 Rosa was prescribed in a proxy in and ivy profen 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:37.320 for the pain and sent back to work. 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.960 So before I got to work, I used to just 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.559 take one peel, then come up some work, take another 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.360 appeal because I'm already learning to sleep. 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.520 Years of doing this damaged her kidneys, and when I 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.120 first talked to her in twenty twenty, not only was 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:54.240 she in pain, but she was dying. 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:59.760 If not even vacim given to better my kidney. So 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.040 I asked him if she can give me a transpident. 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.480 Then she said no because she said, I don't want 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.600 to offend you or anything. But yet you as a 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:14.240 prisoner and everybody in prison, can I get a kidney 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:19.200 transfer or any kind of transman, because you are the 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:20.800 lower of a society. 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.520 In her late thirties, Rosa was facing down death from 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:29.280 a prison cell, but soon her life would change. 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.480 My name is Rosa Humanez and I was wrongly convicted 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:37.280 of injury to a child and murder. I was eighteen 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:38.120 years in. 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.520 Prison for love of for good. This is wrongful conviction 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:54.480 with Maggie Freeling today. Rosa Jimenez. Rosa Jimenez was born 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.440 in October nineteen eighty two and raised just outside of 0:02:58.480 --> 0:02:59.280 Mexico City. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:07.519 Little town is cooed at the pic. We were very 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.519 poor at that time when I was little. 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.480 Rosa's mom, Estella was single with five kids to take 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:14.840 care of. 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:21.000 She used to sell tamales in Mexico came to sign laws. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:30.480 Estella says she worked every day for those sometimes until 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.560 two am, to make sure all her children stayed in 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:35.560 school and got their education. 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:37.240 Get out and. 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.360 Estella says she never had a holiday or weekend off 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:50.120 while her kids were young. But she didn't let her 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.600 kids drop out of school, and that's what matters. Estella 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.400 was a proud woman, just like Rosa. 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.840 No one is going to stop me. That's me. 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:04.320 Rosa went to college for business and tourism. She wanted 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:05.960 to own a restaurant with her mom. 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.720 And then of course I wouldn't have a bunch of 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:13.040 kids and get married and be happy. That was me 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.720 Rosa seventeen year old Rosa. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.640 But Rosa found focusing on college was difficult when her 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.840 family was struggling with bills. She remembers coming home from 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:25.000 school one day looking for a snack. 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.039 I was hungry. You opened the refrigerator and you was 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.920 nothing there, and my mom was like, you're hungry, and 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.280 I was like, no, I was just going to get iced. 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.360 But then I realized in that moment, then my mom 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.920 couldn't do it no more by herself, so I decided 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:41.599 to come over here. 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:45.360 At seventeen, Rosa decided she was going to drop out 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.640 of school and come to the United States to work 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.600 and send money back to her family. How did your 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:52.560 mom feel about you coming to the United States. 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.120 Oh, she didn't want me to come. She begged me 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.560 and begged me to go to school. But you know, 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.000 when you're young, you like, no, I know what I'm 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.520 going to do. This is what I decided to do, 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.200 and I'm going to do it and no one is 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:06.960 going to stop you. 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:09.800 Do you regret coming here? 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:18.200 That's a hard question, yes and no. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.039 Life in the United States would turn out to be 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:34.920 everything and nothing like Rosa had planned for. Rosa's stepfather 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.800 lived in the United States, so Rosa's plan was to 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:42.920 go to Austin Texas and get settled with him. 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:48.279 My stepfather's sister had two kids in Mexico. One was 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.760 seven and another one was six, and she asked me 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.360 if I can bring her kids, and if I bring them, 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.479 she was going to pay the coyote. 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:02.560 Rosa didn't have the means to come to the United 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.479 States legally, so she made the harrowing journey into the 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:17.920 country with a coyote a human smugglers reels. Estella says 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:26.200 she spent every day worried and restless. Is that binstino 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:33.560 praying that her daughter made it out alive. It's Estella 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:35.760 did not want her daughter to cross the border, but 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.000 Rosa took those children and did it anyway. 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.600 I brough those two kids and I pretend that they 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.720 were my kids. I was the only female, well, the 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.400 little girl and I were the only females. They were 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.640 like twenty five mens, dirty, and. 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:54.680 You're seventeen year old and I'm. 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:59.719 Seventeen year old with two kids. It was really scary. 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.120 She remembers. One instance, the whole group was staying in 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:04.080 one room for the night. 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:06.720 No one can lay down in the middle of the 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.760 night because we're standing up. It's crowded like the little 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.200 bathroom with thirty people, and. 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:15.800 She says a guy tried to touch her. 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.640 I tell the guy not too like, don't come too 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.720 close to me, and the other guys to start getting 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.400 mad because hey, you're gonna respect this girl, you know. 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.120 They tell him that if he comes close to me 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.120 again that they were going to beat him up. 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:33.560 Another man protected her and took it upon himself to 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:35.920 watch out for her and the kids the rest of 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:36.360 the trip. 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.080 It was an older guy. I don't even remember his 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.720 name that he was like, oh, like a father figure 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.200 kind of like he didn't like, was protecting me and 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:51.480 the kids. I never seen him up again, but you've. 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:52.640 Thought about him all these years. 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:57.400 Yeah, Yeah, sometimes I feel like they angels, you know, 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.960 Like I mean that you show up to protect you. 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:02.240 And your guardian angel. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:03.160 Yeah. 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.080 When Rosa made it to the US, things didn't work 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.600 out living with her stepfather, so she wound up with 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:13.040 some friends she'd met at ESL school. She worked several jobs, 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:14.560 including at a food truck. 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.680 That was the worst experience ahead. 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.720 Like in a food truck, Yes, how come. 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.120 They're go and pick you up like at two o'clock 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:28.760 in the morning and you don't finish working by ten pm, 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:33.160 so you only have like a little gap to go 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.920 to sleep. And it was horrible. The payment was like, 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.560 I'm not even liing to you, like six dollars and 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:41.920 fifty cents back then. 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.760 But Rosa kept hustling and sending money back to her mom. 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.480 That was my whole purpose in here to help her. 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:56.080 And then Rosa met a boy, and her purpose changed. 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.760 At that moment. At that he was myself. 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.439 Eighteen year old feet well, like he. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:03.920 Is the man that I wanted to be with the 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:04.880 rest of my life. 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:07.520 How long were you here before you got pregnant? 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:09.600 Now even a. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:14.760 Year she was still a teenager and she was pregnant, 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:19.079 but she was thrilled. Nine months later, baby Brenda was born. 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.679 In two thousand and two, Rosa's dream was coming true. 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:26.040 If she couldn't get her degree, she wanted to be 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:36.760 a wife and a mom. A year later, Rosa was 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.120 pregnant again and had stopped working full time. She picked 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.160 up babysitting gigs here and there, and eventually she found 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.920 a steady gig caring for a friend's child a couple 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:49.920 times a week. Brian Gutierrez was almost two years old. 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.200 A few months older than Brenda, so it was perfect 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:56.199 for Rosa because she gat care for her daughter and Brian. 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.680 People who knew Rosa said that she loved that little 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:06.200 boy like her own. On the morning of January thirtieth, 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.960 two thousand and three, Brian's mom dropped him off with 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.960 Rosa on her way to work at nine am. He 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.480 and Brenda napped, and when they woke up, Rosa made 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:18.960 them snacks, beans, egg cheese, and pico de gayo. Rosa 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.040 says that both kids had colds that day and she 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.240 was constantly wiping their noses. She used a roll of 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.040 paper towels, and at some point she tossed the role 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.319 in the couch, thinking nothing of it. She then let 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:34.920 them watch TV and play while she made lunch. It 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.760 was afternoon and Rosa was cooking in the kitchen. She 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:39.880 says it'd been about ten minutes since she had last 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:44.360 checked on the kids. Then suddenly, Brian walks in slowly 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.920 with a hand on his throat. He appeared to be choking. 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.280 Rosa says she picked up Brian and rushed to the bathroom, 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:53.840 slapped him on the back, then tried to pull out 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:57.320 whatever was stuck in his throat, but nothing, so she 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:02.200 ran to a neighbor's apartment for help. When emergency responders arrived, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.320 they were able to extract a wad of bloody paper 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:09.160 towels from Brian's throat. Later it was measured at two 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.640 and a half inches, almost the size of a tennis ball. 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.120 When they got Brian to the hospital, he was alive 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:20.760 but in critical condition, and police wanted to take Rosa 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:22.520 to the station for questioning. 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:29.600 I called Fidel and I tell him, hey, this happened, 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.520 and you need to come home because they want me 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.160 to go to the police's station to give a statement, 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.760 but you need to take care of Brenda. 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.599 At the station, detective Eric Dela Santos interviewed Rosa. He 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.400 wanted to know how such a large wad of paper 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.280 towels wound up down Brian's throat. In his mind, there 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.560 was no way Brian could have swallowed that himself. It 0:11:55.800 --> 0:12:00.560 had to have been forced down. Della Santo's question Rosa 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.120 for five hours, insisting she had shoved the paper towels 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:06.880 down Brian's mouth. He said Rosa was mad that the 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.760 kids were playing with the paper towels, shredding them and 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:14.920 tossing them around the house. Rosa was terrified. Remember she 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:19.240 was a new immigrant. Was everything confusing for you? Did 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:20.680 you know you had rights? 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:24.120 I didn't know I have rights. I didn't know anything. 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.120 Rosa says she was unaware she didn't have to answer 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.640 Delo Santo's questions, or that she had a right to 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:30.560 a lawyer. 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:34.680 In Mexico is so corrupted. You know, you bribe the 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.920 police and you free, no matter why you do, you free. 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:43.760 So I'll come to this country and I don't have 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.920 knowledge or anything. The only thing I know is where 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:52.800 I came from. So I think maybe if I have money, 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.000 I can bribe the police, and you know, they let 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.800 me out. I don't know. So I didn't have no knowledge. 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.160 I don't have I didn't have anything. I didn't mean 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:02.880 speak English, nothing. 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.120 Dela Santo spoke Spanish, but Rosa says it was very 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.000 difficult for her to communicate with him. While the government 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:14.520 has to provide trained interpreters at trial, an interpreter isn't 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:19.480 constitutionally guaranteed during police questioning, so it was just Delo 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.959 Santos and Rosa and her head was spinning. Rosa was 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:27.400 worried about Brian, and then she thought about Brenda. She 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.320 begged Dela Santos to let her use the phone to 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:31.000 call Fidel. 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:35.400 When I call, he said, the CPS took Brenda like 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:41.240 child Protective services, and I was just freaking out because 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:46.280 I didn't know what child protective Services was or anything. 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:48.080 So I was freaking out. 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.720 When I first spoke with Rosa, she explained that desperation 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:52.199 to me. 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.760 I was like, like me, I can have Blenda back 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:03.000 if I said whatever they wanted to. You wanted to 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:07.240 say whatever you've been saying. Man, I say it, you know, 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:09.760 but just let me try Branda back. 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.800 Rosa eventually asked Dela Santos what would happen if she 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.520 told him she did it, and he told her that 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:18.839 she'd be able to go home and see her daughter, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.280 and after hours of questioning, Rosa says she considered just 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.320 saying that she did it. Maybe when she tried to 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:30.080 pull the paper towels out, she accidentally shoved them in further, 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.040 but she didn't actually admit to hurting Brian and wouldn't 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.760 speak further until she saw Brenda. So Dela Santos drove 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.440 Rosa home while other officers prepared a warrant, and a 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.520 few hours later, in the early morning hours of January 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.480 thirty first, Rosa was arrested for injury to a child. 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.960 Rosa sat in jail for months awaiting trial, pregnant with 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.520 her second child, and on April eighteenth, two thousand and three, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:00.520 she started feeling contra fractions. 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:07.720 I remember going to the hospital from the jail, and 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:09.640 every time you had to go to the hospital, you 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.120 had to go be in shackles. 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.280 This is standard practice while in DJ custody, shackling prisoners 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.120 who are giving birth with an officer assigned to watch 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:18.600 over them. 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:24.360 Is that police officer, you know, just watching you give? 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.960 Sure you're not gonna escape what you are giving? Birned, Like, 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.200 how can that happen? I mean, you and a lot 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.720 of pain, you have contractions, you're pushing. How can you 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.280 gonna start pushing and then run? I don't I don't 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:44.280 see that possible. But it was very It was very sad. 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:52.920 I remember that night. I have a female officer and 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.160 she had to be there the whole time, and I 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.920 was having like contractions, but I was not going in labor. 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.800 And I was like literally praying to go on labor 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.600 because I didn't know who was the other officer was 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.520 gonna be and I didn't want it to be a male. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:17.000 And I'm you know, with your legs all open and shackles, 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.720 and like I was scared. I was scared. I was 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:22.480 really scared. 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.960 After a few hours of labor, her son, Aiden was born. 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:28.840 Did they let you hold him? 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:29.720 No? 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:31.680 You didn't even get to hold your son. 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:32.160 No. 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.920 I had to beg later on when I went to 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.120 the room, I had to beg the nurse to let 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.440 me hold my kid. Because of the nature of the crime. 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.360 They didn't let me get close to Aiden. 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.680 Because Rosa was charged with a crime against a child, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.960 she wasn't allowed near anyone under eighteen, not even her 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:59.440 newborn son. However, in a moment of grace or sympathy, 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.760 once they were alone, the nurse let Rosa hold Aiden 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:07.440 for a little while. But as one baby came into 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:11.800 the world, another left. Brian Gutierrez succumbed to his injuries 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.119 and died just over a week after Aiden was born. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.320 Ros's charges were upgraded to felony murder two years later. 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.280 Rosa went to trial in August two thousand and five. 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.720 She was tried in Travis County Criminal District Court by 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:29.600 Gary Cobb and Alison Wetzel. 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:30.800 This trial is. 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.680 About something that happened to a little boy named Brian 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:35.960 on January thirty of two thousand and three. 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:37.120 He was twenty. 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.920 One months old. He lived in North Austin with his. 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:46.000 Mother, Victoria, and with her family, and he was a 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:50.600 healthy baby. He was a happy baby, and his family. 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:54.840 Loved him very very much. Doctors and first responders who 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.400 took the stand for the prosecution all said it would 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:59.960 have been impossible for Brian to have shoved the paper 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.080 towels down his throat on his own. His gag reflex 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.360 would have pushed them out. Someone had to hold him 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:10.520 down and push the wat of paper towels past the reflex. 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.760 How much do you think racism played into Rose's case? 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.679 Racism played a huge role in Rosa's case. She is 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.439 one of other people that we know about who women 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:29.879 of color in this jurisdiction at this time period, who 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:34.320 ended up being prosecuted in cases where children were injured 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:35.320 in accidents. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.639 Vanessa Pupkin is the director of Special Litigation at The 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:39.640 Innocence Project. 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:42.960 It's something that we see throughout the country when it 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:48.560 comes to children who die or are injured and if 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.919 the parents are people of color, there's a rush to 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.760 call this a homicide or some type of abuse. 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.399 And it's hard to argue when you hear Wetzel in 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.120 her own words at trial. Here she is questioning Detective 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.760 Delo Santo's on the stand about his interrogation with Rosa. 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:14.040 And despite being from Mexico, she's very intelligent, wouldn't you agree? 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:15.440 I think she's a smart lady. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.800 And did it appear to you that she manipulated you 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.040 at the end of the interview by getting you to 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.280 bring her daughter to you? 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:28.480 You know, I'm gonna say yes. I don't think she 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.320 ever intended to tell me if she. 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:37.680 Did this, that she did it. In Rosa's defense, her attorney, 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.400 Leonard Martinez, called multiple witnesses who said Rosa was a 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.800 peaceful person who was not quick to anger. But that 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:46.040 was pretty much it. 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.800 She just had woefully an adequate counsel. Her trial counsel 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.960 only consulted with one expert. That expert had no experience 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.800 in pediatric pathology. 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.359 In fact, none of the experts that trial did not 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:06.480 even the prosecutions, but the expert hired by Rosa's lawyer 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:08.920 was particularly bad. 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:14.200 He had not done any publishing except for one article, 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.960 which was how to turn a murder into an accident? 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:20.680 So could you imagine when that came out in front 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.040 of the jury what that did to his credibility. 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:26.359 It was a disaster. 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.080 Rosa sat through a week long trial believing that, even 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.680 though she was confused by the proceedings and what people 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.600 were saying, everything was going to be okay. 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.760 I believe in the United States system. I believe the yeah, 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.600 we're not corrupted. I believe the yeah, we're going to 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.040 search the truth and the truth we're going to set 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:46.440 me free. 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.200 But on August thirty first, two thousand and five, Rosa 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.439 was convicted of injury to a child and felony murder. 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:57.760 She was sentenced to ninety nine years in prison. 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:00.840 I remember during your trial you were getting all this 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:02.200 information through a translator. 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:03.640 Yes, correct. 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.560 What was that like when you found out you're convicted? 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:08.880 Did you understand at that moment what was happening? 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:17.320 No? Two, I mean she's saying that they convict me 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:21.800 to ninety nine years in prison, But it was like, no, 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:22.800 it cannot. 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:31.480 Be lestas busy a level that act. Where have you seen. 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:37.280 Estella was there watching her daughter get tried and sentenced, 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.720 and she didn't understand what was happening either. She says, 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.120 she asked Rosa's lawyer to please translate to tell her 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:45.640 what was going on. 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:47.879 It is. 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.440 That was the last time she saw her daughter in person, 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.000 and Estella says, there are simply no words to describe 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:11.800 that kind of pain. At twenty two years old, everything 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.240 Rosa had ever dreamed of was gone. 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:18.760 You know, here's so many people these days talk about like, oh, 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:20.440 their career, what they want to be, and she wanted 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:20.960 to be a mother. 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.440 That was her thing that she wanted very much. 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.200 But now her kids were being taken from her. Fidel 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.119 was young and had no means of caring for them. 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.080 In fact, he disappeared from Rosa's life shortly after her conviction. 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.560 So Rosa's children were put in foster care while her 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:43.879 mom fought for custody from Mexico. Brenda and Aiden were 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.199 placed with a family who will call the Smiths. At first, 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:49.560 Rosa says, the Smiths would bring her kids to see 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:50.560 her in prison. 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.520 But then they start asking me for an adoption, to 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:58.040 sign papers, and I tell them no. So then that 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:02.239 we sit, says starts getting you know, far away and 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:02.800 far away. 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:06.440 Rosa felt like she was being manipulated, like. 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:11.680 If you give them to adoption to us, then you're 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:14.159 going to be able to see them more often. But 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:16.240 if you don't, then you're not going to be able 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:21.000 to see them. And then part of me was really sad, 0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:23.800 and part of me was like, I'm not going to 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:27.760 give my kids to adoption. They're my kids, So she didn't. 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:31.560 Did you think you were ever going to get out 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:33.159 to be able to be a mom to them? Was 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:34.600 that part of your decision making? 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:44.439 Honestly? I mean when you in prison, Maggie, like you 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:48.439 believe in God, you have this strong faith and you 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:52.960 believe because you don't have nothing else. They strip you 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.679 from your kids, your family, everything that you dream of. 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:59.439