Speaker 1: As FBI agent Mark Pinchot was investigating the credit card
Speaker 1: fraud ring run by Romanians in Las Vegas. He was
Speaker 1: invited to Romania to give lectures about organized crime to
Speaker 1: a group of the nation's law enforcement officials.
Speaker 2: And so I said, Josh, here I'll go. It's a week.
Speaker 2: I've never been to Romania. I'm working Romanians. This would
Speaker 2: be a good opportunity.
Speaker 1: Mark decided to fly in a week early to explore
Speaker 1: the country. Thankfully, he had a friend there waiting for him.
Speaker 2: When I land, there's Flavio in a suit. I'd never
Speaker 2: seen him in a suit, and he's wearing a badge.
Speaker 2: It's like, follow me.
Speaker 1: Flavio took Mark's passport and slammed it down along with
Speaker 1: the badge, in front of a customs agent, who then
Speaker 1: stamped Mark's passport, no questions.
Speaker 2: Asked, and I'm like, ah, something's going on here. Then
Speaker 2: we walk over to immigration and the same thing happens.
Speaker 2: So I'm not asking anything yet because I don't know
Speaker 2: who's listening, and I don't know what's going on. I
Speaker 2: don't know if I'm gonna be led to some gray
Speaker 2: government building and never be seen again. Because this is
Speaker 2: completely just different than what I expected.
Speaker 1: As they left the airport, mark'saff Flavio hand the badge
Speaker 1: to someone.
Speaker 2: Basically what he did it appears to me he just
Speaker 2: borrowed the badge from somebody new a connection and just
Speaker 2: walked me through these things. I mean, he had the
Speaker 2: aura of someone that had done that before, complete faith
Speaker 2: and confidence in what you're doing, you know, not avoiding
Speaker 2: eye contact, and just this is a matter of fact.
Speaker 1: Mark and Flavio then drove to the hotel. Not only
Speaker 1: did Flavio know which hotel Mark was staying in, but
Speaker 1: he already knew which room Mark had been assigned, and.
Speaker 2: He goes, all those rooms are wired. He goes, We'll
Speaker 2: put you another room in another name. Like why I'm
Speaker 2: not doing anything here? He goes, It's just better. So
Speaker 2: you're ackles, rise up, Like what the heck is going on?
Speaker 1: What was going on was Flavio was going out of
Speaker 1: his way to use his connections and help an American
Speaker 1: government official without even being asked. It wasn't the first
Speaker 1: time Flavio had done this, and it won't be the last.
Speaker 1: I'm Trevor Aronson from Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts. This
Speaker 1: is Alphabet Boys episode four, something we might look into.
Speaker 1: So to be clear, Flavio wasn't a Romanian official. He
Speaker 1: just borrowed a badge that belonged to a friend in
Speaker 1: Bucharest and walked into the airport like he owned the place.
Speaker 1: Play the part, fake it till you make it. Flavio
Speaker 1: was a master. That's the kind of mystery man Flavio was.
Speaker 1: He just knew people. He had access to things others didn't.
Speaker 1: He was just connected somehow.
Speaker 2: We looked at Bucharest and we went to, you know,
Speaker 2: some public and government buildings, and he did talk to
Speaker 2: some people, then removed some ropes, and we walked into
Speaker 2: places that we weren't allowed to walk to, you know.
Speaker 2: The next week when the rest of the contingent arrived
Speaker 2: from the United States. But we just traveled around and
Speaker 2: went to different restaurants and met some people.
Speaker 1: As Flavio saw it, he was a friend of the FBI.
Speaker 1: Mark was visiting Romania, so Flavio would show him around.
Speaker 1: That's what friends do.
Speaker 3: Mark.
Speaker 4: He's a Mark.
Speaker 5: He's a person which I wish all the government employees
Speaker 5: to be like him. And he came with the approval
Speaker 5: from Washington to spend with me two weeks together as
Speaker 5: a vacation as a friends.
Speaker 1: It was like one of those odd couple road trip movies.
Speaker 5: And we have a lot of fun. We see the
Speaker 5: carpetin mountains, we see the Black Sea. We have a
Speaker 5: lot of fun.
Speaker 4: Me and him.
Speaker 5: I was really try to impress him with Romania from
Speaker 5: my eyes and from my point of view to see
Speaker 5: that country.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, it was all spontaneous. Mark had
Speaker 1: simply told Flavio that he was going to Romania. He
Speaker 1: didn't even expect Flavio to be there.
Speaker 2: It was so sort of a shock that he was there.
Speaker 1: Flavio just went out of his way to take a
Speaker 1: whole week off to drive Mark around.
Speaker 2: But you know, he asked, Hey, what do you want
Speaker 2: to do? I said, I want to eat what Romanians
Speaker 2: everyone has a tribe soup and it's like a short
Speaker 2: the burta is what it was. I like, tribe soup,
Speaker 2: need everything, and I went to a restaurant and that's
Speaker 2: what I ordered.
Speaker 1: Mark also saw firsthand the business Flavia was helping to run,
Speaker 1: handling the internet infrastructure for Romanians running webcam channels.
Speaker 2: I did see his chat room and it was up
Speaker 2: in some attic somewhere where there had three or four beds,
Speaker 2: and he provided that so they could sleep because a
Speaker 2: lot of the people they spoke with, his workers spoke
Speaker 2: with were Americans the Times of Difference, and there were
Speaker 2: just a number of tables with the computers in there,
Speaker 2: and there may have been a coffeemaker or tea or
Speaker 2: something like that.
Speaker 6: But that was it.
Speaker 2: It was pretty humble.
Speaker 1: But there were some places in Romania where Flavio wouldn't
Speaker 1: go with Mark because those places had informants of their own.
Speaker 2: I asked to go to a couple of casinos because
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to the people that ran the casinos.
Speaker 2: He warned against it. He said, that's probably not a
Speaker 2: good idea. He goes, there's prostitutes in front. They're going
Speaker 2: to report on who's coming in, what they're driving, all
Speaker 2: this other stuff. That's why the prostitutes are arrested. He goes,
Speaker 2: if you go there, I'll have to drop you off
Speaker 2: and you'll have to walk.
Speaker 1: Mark wanted to know how things worked in Romania, how
Speaker 1: the corruption went down, how the casinos were connected to
Speaker 1: organized crime. So Mark just walked in requested to speak
Speaker 1: to the casino's manager. And asked.
Speaker 2: I said, hey, I'm just curious how things work here,
Speaker 2: And I asked about how you know they paid kickbacks
Speaker 2: and things like that. I mean, pretty pretty poored. I
Speaker 2: just wanted to know how things worked in Romania. It's
Speaker 2: professional curiosity.
Speaker 1: But Mark didn't mention to the casino manager that he
Speaker 1: was an FBI agent.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, that would that'd be sticking your neck
Speaker 2: out way too far.
Speaker 1: The casino manager answered Mark's questions but kept her cards close.
Speaker 2: She's not naming names, doesn't say, hey, this commissioner of
Speaker 2: this does that. She's just giving me the mechanics of
Speaker 2: how it works.
Speaker 1: Mark was gaining a lot of insight that would prove
Speaker 1: helpful back in America, and he was also learning more
Speaker 1: about Flavio. Mark discovered that Flavio, who'd by then become
Speaker 1: a US citizen, wasn't drawn back to Romania only by
Speaker 1: his business interests. He had a romantic interest too.
Speaker 2: It was funny because his big concern wasn't most of
Speaker 2: the time you hear about relationship issues. Ah, she won't
Speaker 2: let me do this, she won't let me do that.
Speaker 2: For him, it was like, she has to get her
Speaker 2: finances and she has to be responsible. You know, he's
Speaker 2: sort of like a parent, that's the way he was. Yeah,
Speaker 2: strange little guy.
Speaker 1: Anyway, after this friendly trip together in Romania, Mark and
Speaker 1: Flavia returned to the United States and picked up their
Speaker 1: investigation of the Romanian credit card ring. That investigation was
Speaker 1: all consuming. Crime doesn't take a day off, right, or
Speaker 1: does it.
Speaker 2: We didn't like to work on Wednesday. Why because we
Speaker 2: worked the weekends and everyone needed days off. So you're like,
Speaker 2: Tuesday Wednesday. We'll try to give everyone days off Tuesday Wednesday.
Speaker 1: Mark, thanks to his travels and his obsession with his
Speaker 1: investigative targets, had learned a lot about Romanians and Romanian culture,
Speaker 1: and he was now using that knowledge to inform his investigation.
Speaker 2: So it's things like you find a dead burden, you
Speaker 2: leave it on their porch on a Wednesday, or on
Speaker 2: their bump on a Wednesday, or an unfortunate event will
Speaker 2: happen for an informant on a Wednesday, and so they
Speaker 2: can say, I'm superstitious, I'm not going to do anything
Speaker 2: on a Wednesday, because that's when I got pulled over
Speaker 2: by the police and my car got towed. And that's
Speaker 2: part of learning, you know, about the culture.
Speaker 1: Mark was able to subtly stage direct the Romanians to
Speaker 1: align their crime schedule with the FBI work schedule.
Speaker 2: What's supers just for them, what's a bad omen, what's
Speaker 2: a because even if they don't believe it, someone in
Speaker 2: their culture may believe it and they have to respect that.
Speaker 2: So we used to work those things in.
Speaker 1: By this time, Mark and the FBI had a full
Speaker 1: portrait of the criminal organization. They knew how it worked,
Speaker 1: and they knew the name of the man in charge.
Speaker 2: Petri Drogoy. He recently died.
Speaker 1: That was the big boss, Petrew Dragoy.
Speaker 2: Petrick Durgoy was probably in his fifties, well mannered, incredibly smart.
Speaker 1: At the time, Petrew was facing competition from an upstart,
Speaker 1: a younger guy who wanted to take control of the
Speaker 1: Las Vegas Crew. His name was Florin, but he went
Speaker 1: by Tony in honor of Tony Montana from Scarface.
Speaker 2: What is the fascination with that movie in that character
Speaker 2: because they want to be some crime kingpin? Did they
Speaker 2: not watch the end of the movie.
Speaker 1: You've probably seen Scarface, it's a classic. But for those
Speaker 1: who haven't, Tony Montana, played by a young al Pacino.
Speaker 1: That's a very brutal death in the end. Anyway, Mark
Speaker 1: had recruited an informant inside the Romanian organization, an older
Speaker 1: guy who had become trusted by both the big boss
Speaker 1: Petru and Florin or Tony.
Speaker 2: But the thing that comes out of this is that
Speaker 2: we know Petru has some real stick, very well connected,
Speaker 2: very well connected back in Romania. You could cause some
Speaker 2: real problems. As I recall you a little bit arrogant,
Speaker 2: but you almost have to be to run these crews.
Speaker 2: Lack of confidence is death.
Speaker 1: As Petru was fending off Florin slash Tony, he somehow
Speaker 1: discovered or became suspicious enough to believe that Flavio was
Speaker 1: a snit. Mark's insider in the Romanian group attended a
Speaker 1: meeting with Petrew and other high ranking members of the organization.
Speaker 1: Petrew expressed concerns about Flavio and recommended that he'd be killed.
Speaker 1: Mark's informant taking notes, wrote Petrew and others offering five
Speaker 1: thousand each for a hit on a guy named Flavio.
Speaker 3: But the whole crime organization, they decide to everyone to
Speaker 3: put five thousand dollars each one to kill me to
Speaker 3: pay somebody to kill me and somebody should my cut
Speaker 3: and everything. And I didn't say one word to a FVA.
Speaker 3: I didn't go, I didn't try, I didn't claim, I
Speaker 3: didn't do anything. One day, I went to them in
Speaker 3: the FDA office in Las Vegas, and I said, it's done,
Speaker 3: we are finished.
Speaker 1: Flavio, concerned about a safety, left Las Vegas and Rich
Speaker 1: turned to Europe more after the break. After Flavio heard
Speaker 1: about the supposed hit on him from the Romanian crime boss,
Speaker 1: he fled the US. Mark, Flavio's FBI handler, thought he
Speaker 1: was overreacting, that this was all just talk.
Speaker 2: I mean, there was one against I don't want to
Speaker 2: talk about me, but.
Speaker 1: Okay, Mark has his own experience with this kind of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not unusual. One of the guys that we
Speaker 2: arrested that's about the same level as Petru was in
Speaker 2: jail and he put out a hit on me. I'm
Speaker 2: not worried about it. I mean, I mean, that's how
Speaker 2: that's how I'm taking this. I'm not worried about it
Speaker 2: because he could put out a hit on me. But no,
Speaker 2: one's not this group, not the Romanians.
Speaker 1: In Mark's view, that they were talking about the hit
Speaker 1: meant it wasn't serious five thousand bucks. There was no
Speaker 1: way Petro was paying someone five thousand bucks to kill Flavio.
Speaker 1: If Petru really wanted someone dead, he could have made
Speaker 1: that happen for a lot less money.
Speaker 2: From my experience, streak guys, they'll do it for fifty bucks.
Speaker 2: They'll do a hit in Romania for fifty bucks. You
Speaker 2: know they don't care why. I mean, it's possible so here.
Speaker 2: Why would you pay someone wanted someone to do it
Speaker 2: just for status.
Speaker 1: After Flavio skipped town, his FBI friend Mark never saw
Speaker 1: him again. In the end, Flavio's assistance resulted in a
Speaker 1: big federal case. The Justice Department in two thousand and
Speaker 1: four indicted twenty one people on federal racketeering and fraud charges.
Speaker 1: Flavio said he wanted to help America, and he did.
Speaker 1: Mark thinks Flavio deserves real credit recognition that he never
Speaker 1: received because he didn't want it and because by the
Speaker 1: time the arrest had occurred, Flavio was already out of
Speaker 1: the country fearing for his life. The FBI's case struck
Speaker 1: at the heart of Romanian organized crime in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: bringing down nearly the entire crew that Petro de Roy ran.
Speaker 1: Even Florin the scarface fan was indicted, but the case
Speaker 1: didn't stop the fraud in the long term. Prosecuting organized
Speaker 1: crime is a bit like playing whack a mole, hit
Speaker 1: one another pops up, and the Romanians are still popping up.
Speaker 1: In Las Vegas. This is from a local TV news
Speaker 1: report from twenty twenty two.
Speaker 4: A Romanian citizen has been sentenced to three and a
Speaker 4: half years in prison for an ATM skimming fraud scheme
Speaker 4: here in Las Vegas.
Speaker 1: After the indictments came down, Flavio still felt he wasn't
Speaker 1: safe living in America, so he built a new life
Speaker 1: in Europe. He spent his time in London and Bucharest
Speaker 1: running multiple businesses. He was doing well.
Speaker 4: I was living in London, I was living in a finnhouse,
Speaker 4: extremely nice in Sohopikabilli go to his sushi Tou Nobu,
Speaker 4: all the good life.
Speaker 1: The FBI officially closed Flavio's file as a confidential human
Speaker 1: source after he left America in two thousand and three,
Speaker 1: but internal reports show that Flavio, while in Europe, continued
Speaker 1: to have periodic contact with agents through two thousand and nine.
Speaker 1: FBI agents can use information from registered informants in reports.
Speaker 1: Unregistered informants, often refer to as hip pocket informants, provide information,
Speaker 1: but agents can't attribute information to them. They're like off
Speaker 1: the record sources. Flavio became one of these, a hip
Speaker 1: pocket informant. So we know from FBI documents that Flavio
Speaker 1: continued to provide information to federal agents through two thousand
Speaker 1: and nine, for approximately six years after he left Las Vegas.
Speaker 1: What we don't know from those documents is what information
Speaker 1: that was. But according to Flavio, he was helping agents
Speaker 1: with high level cases, including the investigation of a Romanian
Speaker 1: named Nikolai Popescu.
Speaker 3: He's on the ABA first page, warrants and warnings and everything.
Speaker 3: They put a million dollars in is one which I
Speaker 3: know him very well, is close to me. They put
Speaker 3: a million dollars out of the reward.
Speaker 1: Popescu is one of the FBI's most wanted fugitives. While
Speaker 1: his case has not received a lot of publicity in
Speaker 1: the United States, it's been big news in Romania.
Speaker 4: Chervistis Nicolaesu de Trisi. She changed anion Exandrie der Mont.
Speaker 1: The Justice Department accuses Popescu of running an international internet
Speaker 1: fraud scheme. Popescu and his colleagues tricked unsuspecting Americans and
Speaker 1: is sending online payments for expensive cars while pocketing millions
Speaker 1: of dollars as part of the con. Maybe Flavio was
Speaker 1: helping the FBI with these big cases, or maybe he wasn't.
Speaker 1: We can't be sure, but here's my understanding of Flavio's
Speaker 1: relationship with the FBI. Starting in two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: he acts as an informant for about two years. His
Speaker 1: information leads to headline grabbing indictments, then, following the murder
Speaker 1: for higher scare, Flavio's relationship with the bureau becomes informal.
Speaker 1: Almost six years of so called hip pocket informat work,
Speaker 1: very much off the books, very much based on friendly
Speaker 1: contact with willing and eager federal agents. But now it's
Speaker 1: twenty twelve and Flavio gets a call from his old
Speaker 1: friend Andy in Los Angeles about a guy from Colombia
Speaker 1: who's looking to purchase millions of dollars in weapons. Flavio
Speaker 1: is a seasoned hand for the US government, a longtime cooperator,
Speaker 1: informant and friend, so within minutes of hanging up the
Speaker 1: phone with Andy. Flavio makes that call to the CIA.
Speaker 3: I said, I should not call it. Via Corsier, Good afternoon,
Speaker 3: How can I help you? Like Courtier in the fourth school,
Speaker 3: I spoke for fifteen minutes with the lady on the phone,
Speaker 3: and she was kept sending me to American embassy in Boucharist.
Speaker 5: If you need to talk in person only, then you
Speaker 5: need to go to the empathy. No, I'm not going
Speaker 5: there because you know I was working and I know
Speaker 5: I'm not trusting people over seeing many other.
Speaker 3: Times and I said, no, I want to go there
Speaker 3: because everybody knows me over there. And I said, I
Speaker 3: don't feel comfortable. I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1: The first CIA agent, she hangs up on Flavia. Okay,
Speaker 1: well we can't help you.
Speaker 5: Thank you the vice.
Speaker 3: And after that I receive a call from like minutes later,
Speaker 3: I receive a call from a gentleman. He said, oh, hi,
Speaker 3: my name is whatever. I don't even remember his name.
Speaker 1: As I understand it, I don't.
Speaker 5: I don't think there was anything that the.
Speaker 3: Agency could do to a sister facilitate what you're trying
Speaker 3: to accomplish.
Speaker 1: If you remember, Flavio tells the second CIA agent everything
Speaker 1: the call from Andy and Los Angeles, how Andy knows
Speaker 1: this Colombian guy trying to buy weapons, and how and
Speaker 1: and the Colombian don't appear to have an ENDS user
Speaker 1: certificate valid for Colombia, suggesting that this deal is illegal
Speaker 1: and possibly a US national security concern.
Speaker 6: I would.
Speaker 3: Determination, I would districtive for the US government because all
Speaker 3: the time he said, thank you very much, thank you,
Speaker 3: thank you. Okay, okay, I'm so thankful, so grateful, so thankful,
Speaker 3: so grateful for everything, which I said, I'm gonna do
Speaker 3: for CAA and collect more intel to clarify this one,
Speaker 3: because you keep saying we need more information.
Speaker 5: If you were force right with all the details, then
Speaker 5: we could verify your story.
Speaker 6: That's something we might look into and pass to the
Speaker 6: right authorities.
Speaker 1: That's something we might look into. Not I might look into,
Speaker 1: not you might look into, but we might look into.
Speaker 3: And my understanding the English, we need more information like
Speaker 3: me and you, me and him, we need more information
Speaker 3: to collect them.
Speaker 1: The agent uses what sometimes called the royal we, referring
Speaker 1: to yourself or your institution as we, just as monarchs
Speaker 1: of the past did. Any native English speaker would likely
Speaker 1: hear the cias we as just referring to them the CIA.
Speaker 1: We as in the CIA might look into this. But Flavio,
Speaker 1: for whom English is the second language and who has
Speaker 1: a history of cooperating with the US government, says he
Speaker 1: hears the WEI as he and the CIA.
Speaker 3: And you just keep saying okay, ok okay. I always
Speaker 3: keep past me. You sure you really need those information,
Speaker 3: because if you don't need then I have some things
Speaker 3: to do in my life. Definitely something that if we
Speaker 3: can verify, I would be of interest, saying to be
Speaker 3: aware of.
Speaker 1: If we can verify, meaning the way Flavio is hearing it,
Speaker 1: if Flavia can verify, he.
Speaker 3: Said, okay, okay, okay, I said, okay. I took it
Speaker 3: like a year.
Speaker 4: We have to protect each other. This is the way
Speaker 4: we have to work together, all right.
Speaker 5: I totally understand what I want to do.
Speaker 2: I will want to send this information to an internal
Speaker 2: desk here for inside purposes only so they can look
Speaker 2: at it for interest and begin to investigate.
Speaker 3: And after that we finished the conversation. I was very
Speaker 3: excited about the conversation. If you if you have the
Speaker 3: chance to listen to conversations, you you kind of to
Speaker 3: see my excitement in my voice and the drive which
Speaker 3: I have to do that.
Speaker 1: Flavio takes the call as affirmation an oral contract, to
Speaker 1: use Flavio's preferred term, that the CIA wants them to
Speaker 1: find out more in the.
Speaker 3: Whole conversation, this gentleman from CIA, he's supposed to say
Speaker 3: one simple sentence, thank you very much for all the information.
Speaker 3: Please do not engage in any actions on behalf of
Speaker 3: our agency or behalf of the United States, because you're
Speaker 3: going to be fully prosecuted under the international laws of
Speaker 3: the United States. And do you understand what I'm telling you?
Speaker 3: Do you understand He's supposed to check with me because
Speaker 3: he see my drive, he see my excitement, he see
Speaker 3: I don't speak English for me. In my mind that
Speaker 3: time was I was proved. If you see all the
Speaker 3: documents from a FBI and how professional I was, and
Speaker 3: how much honesty and dignity I have and never be
Speaker 3: charged or arrested, were interrogate word did something wrong to
Speaker 3: become as an informer or a confidential source. I never
Speaker 3: do anything wrong.
Speaker 1: I've listened to Flavio's calls with the CIA over and
Speaker 1: over and over. It's true that the CIA agent does
Speaker 1: not explicitly tell Flavio not to engage with Andy in
Speaker 1: the Colombian on the CIA's behalf. And if you take
Speaker 1: that we to include Flavio, I can see how it
Speaker 1: could be taken as marching orders. But it's also true
Speaker 1: that the CIA agent doesn't enter into any kind of
Speaker 1: clear cut agreement with Flavio that would make him an
Speaker 1: informant or an agent of the CIA. At best, the
Speaker 1: calls are ambiguous. The CIA agents are interested in the information.
Speaker 1: That much is clear. The second agent even says he'll
Speaker 1: pass the information up the chain of command and someone
Speaker 1: may contact Flavio.
Speaker 3: But what is.
Speaker 1: Flavio's role supposed to be in what happens next. That's
Speaker 1: never discussed On the calls. Flavio claims he didn't see
Speaker 1: any ambiguity. What he saw was this, the CIA engaged
Speaker 1: him to find more information, just as the FBI had
Speaker 1: been engaging him for almost a decade, so Flavio pushes
Speaker 1: things forward. That's after the break. After making that call
Speaker 1: to the CIA, Flavio says he believes that he's been
Speaker 1: signed up as an informant or a friend, to use
Speaker 1: his preferred term, just as he had been with the FBI.
Speaker 5: I was so excited. I said, that's it. I'm going
Speaker 5: to right now. I'm going to prove myself why I am.
Speaker 5: I'm going to take you to a different level. A
Speaker 5: FBI was nothing. Just like I said. They was asking
Speaker 5: me questions and they put the put and I have
Speaker 5: to put the puzzle together for them. They was having
Speaker 5: pieces of information. They need somebody to put them together.
Speaker 5: But I said, this one, it's my thing, and I'm
Speaker 5: gonna be so good. I'm gonna prepare so much. I
Speaker 5: didn't sleep with Andre four months in the same bed,
Speaker 5: four nights four months.
Speaker 1: Andre is Flavio's wife. They were newly married at the time.
Speaker 5: What you're doing in the night, I'm reading something you
Speaker 5: read one night, you read, two nights you read, but
Speaker 5: you never come to the bed. I was coming to
Speaker 5: the bed every night four to five o'clock in the
Speaker 5: morning because I know, I knew that time. If I
Speaker 5: engage in this thing and I met these real people,
Speaker 5: and I don't know an answer to a question which
Speaker 5: you asked me, I'm gonna die there you go, Houston
Speaker 5: will have a problem. I said, you know what, better
Speaker 5: before I do something, I start to learn, and I
Speaker 5: took it myself, and I prove myself.
Speaker 1: Flavio claims he didn't know much at all about the
Speaker 1: arms trade before and called him, so he spent the
Speaker 1: next month's researching how arms are sold and shipped throughout
Speaker 1: the world. Flavio is convincing and explaining it this way,
Speaker 1: and his previous work for the FBI over the course
Speaker 1: of years certainly suggests he's credible and would have had
Speaker 1: cause to think he might be recruited as some sort
Speaker 1: of CIA asset. I want to believe this story. I
Speaker 1: think it explains a lot about Flavio's behavior in a
Speaker 1: way that is significantly more satisfying than other possible explanations.
Speaker 1: But I can't get past two problems with this story.
Speaker 1: The first problem is that when he calls the CIA,
Speaker 1: Flavio specifically mentions that Andy and Andy's Columbian friend do
Speaker 1: not have what's called an end user's certificate.
Speaker 6: A mentionize and they said, I ask for the end
Speaker 6: user certificate.
Speaker 7: You know what the end user certificated, No.
Speaker 6: I'm not familiar with him. Oh, and us a certificate
Speaker 6: your user or faith or which has.
Speaker 1: To prooved to this fact, Flavio claims he doesn't know
Speaker 1: much about international arms deals and needs to do so
Speaker 1: much research about the weapons trade that he stops sharing
Speaker 1: a bed with his new wife. But in the two
Speaker 1: short calls with the CIA, he appears to note exactly
Speaker 1: what an end user certificate is and why it's important.
Speaker 1: How would someone with such self proclaimed limited knowledge of
Speaker 1: the arms trade know about an end user certificate, let
Speaker 1: alone how crucial it is. And the second problem I
Speaker 1: have with Flavia's story is this. While Flavio frames his
Speaker 1: initial interactions with the CIA as similar to those with
Speaker 1: the FBI, Flavio's relationship with the bureau started out in
Speaker 1: a very formal way. He signed papers, the FBI registered
Speaker 1: him as a confidential human source. It wasn't make a
Speaker 1: call in Abracadabra, you're working for us now. There was
Speaker 1: a bureaucratic process, and he went through that process. Flavio
Speaker 1: didn't go through anything similar with the CIA. He simply
Speaker 1: had two phone calls, both on the same day, and
Speaker 1: he says he went to work. What Flavio says is this,
Speaker 1: when he got off the phone with the CIA, he
Speaker 1: believed he'd been tasked to gather more information about Andy
Speaker 1: about the Colombian wand and about whoever was willing to
Speaker 1: sell weapons to want. And here's yet another complication in
Speaker 1: Flavio's story. It takes two years from the time that
Speaker 1: Flavio calls the CIA to his very first conversation with
Speaker 1: one the Colombian. Two years. During that time, Flavio doesn't
Speaker 1: speak to anyone at the CIA. He says he used
Speaker 1: that time to understand how an arms deal could be
Speaker 1: put together, so that he could put one together for
Speaker 1: Wan and secretly for the CIA.
Speaker 5: How this whole thing works, because I didn't know anything.
Speaker 5: And the more I was digging, the more things I
Speaker 5: was starting to find. How they prepared, how they procude
Speaker 5: the documents, how they do The whole thing is nothing fake.
Speaker 5: Everything is real. It's no such a thing, fake a
Speaker 5: C E CU, fake paperwork. No, it's real. Everything is real.
Speaker 4: It's not a lie.
Speaker 3: It's not a fake.
Speaker 5: It's not anything else.
Speaker 1: During that entire hired two year period, Andy, Flavio's friend
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, and Wan the Colombian are talking.
Speaker 6: This is too much playing around. You tell me you're
Speaker 6: gonna make it, yes or no. I'll not be the
Speaker 6: end of it. Period.
Speaker 1: Andy keeps telling Wan that he can make an arm
Speaker 1: steel happen. He knows people, he's got guys, but he
Speaker 1: keeps the laying and it's frustrating.
Speaker 3: Wan.
Speaker 6: Let me ask you this. Let me let's let's be
Speaker 6: sending to each other. Why is going on? Are you
Speaker 6: gonna comply with me? Man? Don't let me down, please, I'm.
Speaker 3: Not letting you do.
Speaker 1: Andy suggests that he and Wan fly to Italy to
Speaker 1: meet this guy, to meet Flavio. So in May twenty fourteen,
Speaker 1: Jan flies all the way from Colombia to Rome. Andy
Speaker 1: assures his guy f will be there. He gives one
Speaker 1: Flavia's number. It's all going to work out, and he
Speaker 1: tells him. So One calls Flavio over and over and
Speaker 1: Flavio isn't answering to scrub you.
Speaker 3: I'm currently unable to take your call. You leave me
Speaker 3: the name, the phone number and the police message and
Speaker 3: I'll count at you as soon as possible.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Flavier. Over morning is one. I'll have your
Speaker 7: message on your UK number. What and it says for
Speaker 7: me to call you on this number as well, Flavio,
Speaker 7: give me a call back.
Speaker 6: Is now Wednesday?
Speaker 1: Tank care right, One's inn for a big surprise.
Speaker 7: You phone call to Flavio or the fourteenth day of
Speaker 7: May twenty fourteen at eight a m.
Speaker 1: Immediately that's in the next episod. This is up in Arms,
Speaker 1: season two of Alphabet Boys. Alphabet Boys is a production
Speaker 1: of Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts. The show is reported,
Speaker 1: written and hosted by me, Trevor Aronson. For more information
Speaker 1: about the series or to drop us a tip, head
Speaker 1: to our website Alphabet Boys dot xyz. You can contact
Speaker 1: me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aaronson. The show's
Speaker 1: instagram is alphabet Boys dot pod. If you're enjoying Alphabet Boys,
Speaker 1: tell your friends about the show. Personal recommendations are the
Speaker 1: best recommendations. And if you want to see an illegal
Speaker 1: arms deal from the inside again, it's Alphabet Boys dot xyz.
Speaker 1: You'll find undercover recordings and documents related to Flavio's case. Finally,
Speaker 1: you can help us ride the algorithms by leaving a
Speaker 1: rating or review on your favorite podcast app that helps
Speaker 1: other people find us. And thanks for listening.