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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: guest producer Max Freight Trade Williams. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know. This is quite a fascinating

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Speaker 3: conversation that we're bringing to you today, fellow conspiracy realist.

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Speaker 3: It contains some It contains some frank and graphic discussion

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Speaker 3: of violence and possibly ongoing conspiracy. We're not diving into

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Speaker 3: this alone. We are joined with a returning guest, the

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Speaker 3: award winning host and producer, creator Sleepwalkers, creator Forgotten Women

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Speaker 3: of Warres and a personal friend of the show, Oz Willoshan. Oz,

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Speaker 3: welcome back, Man.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. It's always such

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Speaker 4: a pleasure. Ben and Noldan, Matt, thank you.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we you know this. This newest project of yours,

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Speaker 3: the Silence the Radio Murders, speaks to something that I

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Speaker 3: think will fascinate all of our fellow listeners because it's

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Speaker 3: a story that maybe people in the West were aware

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Speaker 3: of and the broad strokes, but this is one of

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Speaker 3: the only in depth level, like in depth sophisticated reporting

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Speaker 3: pieces that I personally encountered on this And maybe that's

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Speaker 3: where we start. Let's see, you know, Matt made a

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Speaker 3: great point off and maybe we start with the lay

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Speaker 3: of the land of Haiti, because for a country that

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Speaker 3: is so close to the US, it's astonishing how little

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Speaker 3: a lot of people know about it.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely. I mean, Haiti is a couple of hundred miles

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Speaker 4: off the coast of Florida. It's half of an island

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Speaker 4: that was formerly known as Hispaniola. The other half is

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Speaker 4: the Dominican Republic, and it has both one of the

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Speaker 4: most romantic and inspiring histories of any country in the

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Speaker 4: world and also the most tragic. It was a French

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Speaker 4: slave colony, and in eighteen oh four there was a

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Speaker 4: slave rebellion led by a man called Tussotloviture, which overthrow

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Speaker 4: Napoleon's armies. It was the first and only fully successful

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Speaker 4: slave rebellion that gave birth to a nation, and so

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Speaker 4: Haiti has this enormous sense of pride and dignity and

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Speaker 4: celebration of that revolutionary spirit. At the same time, the

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Speaker 4: country has never really been allowed to be forgiven for

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Speaker 4: throwing off its colonial masters. So one of the things

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Speaker 4: that probably a lot of people were aware of is

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Speaker 4: this issue of reparations. Haiti had to actually pay reparations

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Speaker 4: to France for almost one hundred years. I think in

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Speaker 4: return for its freedom.

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Speaker 5: Is it of the slaves that usually get the reparation

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Speaker 5: yards it should be, certainly, And the French basically their

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Speaker 5: navy threatened to blockade Haiti's port and prevent it from

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Speaker 5: trading unless they paid these reparations.

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Speaker 4: So then obviously from please interrupting, the mightn't want to

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Speaker 4: just be going on. As French colonial power receded, US

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Speaker 4: colonial power rose, and there was something called the Monroe

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Speaker 4: Doctrine in the early twentieth century. The monro doctrine basically

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Speaker 4: asserted that the United States couldn't allow any European colonial

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Speaker 4: powers to have any purchase in its you know backyard,

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Speaker 4: i e. Central America, Latin America, and the Caribbean. And

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Speaker 4: you know, in some sense maybe fine, But what that

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Speaker 4: practically meant was it wasn't they want to necessarily free

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Speaker 4: these countries from European colonial influence, just that they wanted

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Speaker 4: to replace the colonial influence with their own. And so Haiti,

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Speaker 4: which many people don't know, is actually occupied by American

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Speaker 4: troops from nineteen fifteen to nineteen thirty four.

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Speaker 3: General Smedley Darlington Butler.

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Speaker 4: Exactly right, exactly right. Yes, who I know is a

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Speaker 4: subject of another one of your investigations. And was it

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Speaker 4: him who had that appalling quote about fancy that you know,

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Speaker 4: black speaking French, that that was the extent of his

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Speaker 4: knowledge of hat when he was administrating it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a real pill that guy. Problematic figure

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Speaker 3: and unfortunately not uncommon in the in the larger sort

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Speaker 3: of landscape of colonial powers and hegemonic ambitions or ambitions

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Speaker 3: to be the hedgemon. And this, I think you've done

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Speaker 3: a beautiful job sort of painting this picture. If we

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Speaker 3: fast forward a bit, we know that those problems have

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Speaker 3: intergenerational ramifications that continue unfortunately today. A lot of people

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Speaker 3: in the Haitian diaspora, they moved away from their homeland

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Speaker 3: to other countries, usually to closer countries, sometimes to other

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Speaker 3: things in the Francophone sphere. And a lot of people

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Speaker 3: ended up in Miami in a place called Little Haiti

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Speaker 3: where our story takes place.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly right. So basically, in the sixties, this guy,

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Speaker 4: Francois Papa Doctor Valier, emerged as the president of Haiti,

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Speaker 4: and he was initially quite popular because Haiti is predominantly

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Speaker 4: black but had been ruled by this what was called

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Speaker 4: the Mulato elite, which was you know, French and black

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Speaker 4: mixed families essentially, And Papa Doc was a doctor who

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Speaker 4: actually worked with the Americans and brought some quite important

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Speaker 4: medical innovations to Haiti and was a preacher of this

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Speaker 4: thing called negratude, which like black gratitude, I guess. And

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Speaker 4: so he was very very popular with the kind of

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Speaker 4: working class Haitian black population. But he quickly took a

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Speaker 4: very very nasty turn and became one of the most

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Speaker 4: brutal and wild and perverse dictators of the twentieth century.

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Speaker 4: He had a special torture room in his palace where

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Speaker 4: a peep hole installed so that he could watch people

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Speaker 4: being tortured to death. I mean, the guy was really appalling.

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Speaker 2: Is this where the tantan comes in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So he basically he didn't trust the army because

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Speaker 4: the army was run by this Mulato elite. So he

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Speaker 4: basically founded this private militia called the Tantan mccoot, who

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Speaker 4: were drawn from the basically the poorest people in Asian society.

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Speaker 4: But they were they weren't paid, but they were given

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Speaker 4: a gun and told you know, you can earn your

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Speaker 4: own salary with this gun, and that that was.

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Speaker 6: That was to a mercenaries, essentially like unpaid mercenaries.

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Speaker 4: And preying on the population. So it was. It was

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Speaker 4: a horrible time. Baby Baby Doc Pappadoc's son, who was

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Speaker 4: nineteen years old, succeeded his father. He was a playboy,

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Speaker 4: actually got Haiti involved in the cocaine trade with his

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Speaker 4: his big innovation to fund his lifestyle as a transhipment

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Speaker 4: point between Colombia and Miami, but the de Valiers were

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Speaker 4: really really brutal, and a lot of people fled to

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Speaker 4: Miami to get away from them. The d Valiers, also,

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Speaker 4: we should, I'm sure come onto this were kind of

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Speaker 4: supported from time to time by the US whose whose

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Speaker 4: biggest fear which hangs over this whole story, was Haiti

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Speaker 4: becoming another Cuba, and the de Valiers and many people

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Speaker 4: who succeeded them were very successful in playing that fear

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Speaker 4: to get what they wanted. But Yeah, became this hotbed

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Speaker 4: of revolutionary Haitians. Effectively wo'd fled the do Valuer regime.

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Speaker 4: Many of them had fled for things like speaking out

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Speaker 4: loud or criticized in the new Valuer regime. They risked

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Speaker 4: their lives on boats to come to Miami. But with

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Speaker 4: this self selecting community of you know, smart, active, ideologically

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Speaker 4: driven people who had willing to risk their life at

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Speaker 4: sea rather than be silenced. And then they got to

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Speaker 4: Miami and go figure. They started talking and they found

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Speaker 4: this very interesting moment in Miami media history where AM

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Speaker 4: radio was being parceled up and sold by the hour,

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Speaker 4: and so you could buy airtime for two hundred bucks

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Speaker 4: an hour.

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Speaker 6: Like public Access especially or CA but whatever, you know,

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Speaker 6: like anyone could have their own show if they could

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Speaker 6: pay up.

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Speaker 4: It's like for hundreds of dollars, right, Yeah, a couple

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Speaker 4: of hundred, two hundred dollars an hour, I think.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 4: So they had to advertising. They had to They had

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Speaker 4: to basically again like they had to figure out how

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Speaker 4: to how to make it work. So they didnt advertising

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Speaker 4: for local businesses, that kind of thing. But they also

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Speaker 4: used these air waves to basically call out the influence

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Speaker 4: of the VALE and their successes both in Miami and

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Speaker 4: more widely in the US, and to cool for regime

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Speaker 4: change and to finance regime change. They were actually raising

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Speaker 4: money in Miami using the radio to send to the

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Speaker 4: opposition movement in Haiti. And that's when the killing started.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, because it's like almost like there's this illusion of

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Speaker 6: safety where you're in the United States. You know, these

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Speaker 6: folks have already risked their lives to get to the

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Speaker 6: United States, and now they have this new found freedom

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Speaker 6: to speak out and maybe a sense of security thinking

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Speaker 6: they can do this, they can affect change, they can

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Speaker 6: send money back home, and that they'll be isolated from

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Speaker 6: this brutal regime back home. But I think maybe the

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Speaker 6: thesis of your show is that maybe not yeah exactly right.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the concept of that Tonton mccoot right, that

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Speaker 2: the security force, this weird, de facto private thing that

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Speaker 2: they've got going on in Haiti. It didn't just exist

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Speaker 2: in Haiti. It also made its way over to the

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Speaker 2: US in some way, or was it I might be

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Speaker 2: getting this mixed up with FRAPP, while other organization.

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Speaker 4: You're right, Matt and FRAPP and the tontmccoutz are basically

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Speaker 4: two sides of the same coin. The Totamacutz kind of

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Speaker 4: evolved into FRAPP, which was another extra judicial paramilitary force,

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Speaker 4: except their job was to buttress the military regime that

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Speaker 4: succeeded the Devaliers. But yeah, I mean were there were spies.

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Speaker 4: There were spies in Miami, Tonto Macutz spies whose job

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Speaker 4: was to keep an eye on the community, make lists,

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Speaker 4: report back on what was going on. Because the Devaliers

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Speaker 4: knew that the only way they could stay in power

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Speaker 4: was to continue to have the support of the US

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Speaker 4: and US policy and so a group of vocal, you know,

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Speaker 4: ethnic potential voters in Miami actually could be quite threatening.

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Speaker 4: And so they were really, I mean they were. There

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Speaker 4: are stories of people bumping into the people who tortured

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Speaker 4: them at the grocery store. But there was basically a

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Speaker 4: campaign of intimidation saying, you know, don't speak, don't raise money,

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Speaker 4: don't put your head above the parapet, don't get involved

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Speaker 4: in organizing here in Miami, because if you do, you'll

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Speaker 4: pay with your life. And that seems who happened.

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Speaker 3: And there were also some further ramifications for the population

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Speaker 3: of Little Haiti in terms of their status with the

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Speaker 3: United States, right, which would determine what the US would

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Speaker 3: do or how the US would treat them, whether they

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Speaker 3: were economic refugees or whether they qualified as political asylum seekers. Right,

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Speaker 3: And that it sounds like a bit of a legalistic distinction.

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Speaker 3: But from what we understand, that's a huge deal. And

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Speaker 3: that's something that really came to the forefront when people

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Speaker 3: started connecting the dots on the murders. I mean, Oz,

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Speaker 3: could you tell us a little bit about how, okay,

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Speaker 3: how the first murder occurs and people already are living

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Speaker 3: in this very tense, very threatening environment right with nor one,

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Speaker 3: as you said, wants to stick their head over the parapet.

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Speaker 3: This is a journalist who has been speaking truth to power.

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Speaker 3: Do people in the Haitian community immediately begin assuming that

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Speaker 3: this that this was not a random murder?

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Speaker 4: Yes. So in December of nineteen ninety, President Aristide was

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Speaker 4: elected the first ever democratic president of Haiti. It was

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Speaker 4: a huge moment. There were you know, basically almost one

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Speaker 4: hundred percent of the population voted for him. The whole

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Speaker 4: island was being spontaneously redecorated, and particularly the diaspora community

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Speaker 4: in Miami were absolutely thrilled. And the first victim was

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Speaker 4: a radio broadcaster called John Claude Olivier, and he'd been

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Speaker 4: partying on the streets in Miami when the election results

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Speaker 4: were announced. The election was in December, the inauguration was

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Speaker 4: scheduled for February, and in January in Haiti, there was

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Speaker 4: actually a coup attempt against Aristeed by the military to

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Speaker 4: prevent him from point to power that failed, but there

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Speaker 4: was a lot of static in Miami as well. The

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Speaker 4: old Guard were basically trying to figure out how do

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Speaker 4: we hold onto our privilege, how do we hold onto

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Speaker 4: our power? And so Jean Cordolivier was using his air

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Speaker 4: waves so basically call these people out to say like

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Speaker 4: it's time for change. And he was getting threats into

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Speaker 4: the radio stations saying if you don't shut up, you'll

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Speaker 4: be killed. But he kept going.

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Speaker 6: He had a motto, or I didn't have like a

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Speaker 6: personal motto, that was when when they tell me to

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Speaker 6: shut up, I'm just going to say whatever I want.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I'm paraphrasing. Essentially, this was his whole deal.

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Speaker 4: That was his whole deal exactly, exactly. But he's also

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Speaker 4: something of a kind of you know, party guy. He

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Speaker 4: was involved in music promotion.

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Speaker 6: Club figure almost like a studio fifty four impresario street

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Speaker 6: Division Star.

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Speaker 4: Division Star exactly, and a flashy dresser and you know

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Speaker 4: ladies man, all those things. The night he died, he

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Speaker 4: was promoting a Haitian American band called Top Fiz. And

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Speaker 4: what one of the people who was there that night,

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Speaker 4: who was actually a police officer, told us is that

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Speaker 4: he started talking about politics and basically celebrating the election

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Speaker 4: results on stage, and people started booing, and he was

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Speaker 4: kind of bundled off stage, and then as he was

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Speaker 4: on his way to his car about four in the morning,

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Speaker 4: he got shot, assassination style with several bullets, some of

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Speaker 4: which lodged in his body and some of which lodged

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Speaker 4: in the car. Immediately afterwards, there was a little bit

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Speaker 4: of doubt about why he was killed, because, honestly, nineties Miami,

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Speaker 4: anyone involved in the nightclub scene was potentially also involved

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Speaker 4: in the underworld in some respects. There's a lot of

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Speaker 4: cocaine trafficking at the time, and so there was almost

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Speaker 4: like a concerted effort. I would say to smearge On

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Speaker 4: Claude and say that you know, his death was because

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Speaker 4: he was wrapped up in some kind of shady business.

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Speaker 4: But then just a few weeks later, another radio broadcaster

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Speaker 4: was murdered, Fritz Daor very different profile. He was an

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Speaker 4: immigration paralegal, looked after his disabled brother and six children,

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Speaker 4: even more vocal than John Todd on the air, and

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Speaker 4: he was shot dead as he left his job at

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Speaker 4: a driving school in a car park right in the

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Speaker 4: heart of Little Haiti, which some people saw as a

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Speaker 4: kind of symbolic killing saying you know, we can get

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Speaker 4: you even here. And after that second killing that doubts

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Speaker 4: about the first killing began to recede.

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Speaker 2: Is doors killing the one where we get into a

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Speaker 2: strange tactic by assassins that was noticed by people where

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Speaker 2: there were wigs involved in dress, like a female dress

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Speaker 2: or something like that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the police report we were able to get it.

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Speaker 4: We did a foyer and we got the kind of

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Speaker 4: some semi redactive police report and it's a really wild document.

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Speaker 4: It's you know, you can kind of feel the probably

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Speaker 4: Anglo police officers receiving this, you know, fire hose of

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Speaker 4: information and just not really knowing how to process it.

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Speaker 3: So yes, that's a Freedom of him Information Act request

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Speaker 3: freedom information along.

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Speaker 4: At home, Yeah, exactly. And sometimes they don't redact as

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Speaker 4: carefully as they should, so there were some like names

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Speaker 4: and stuff which were redacted in some places and not

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Speaker 4: in others, so that was quite helpful. But yes, and

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Speaker 4: there was there was a in the police report that

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Speaker 4: was a man dressed in a wig and women's clothing

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Speaker 4: was seen fleeing the scene, and we thought that was

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Speaker 4: kind of weird detail. We did some research and we

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Speaker 4: found out that that was apparently the classic disguise of

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Speaker 4: the Tonton maccootz, the paramilitary sometimes in Haiti. So that

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Speaker 4: lead never went anywhere, and it may have been there

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Speaker 4: may have been an assumption this was something to do

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Speaker 4: with the Tonton mccouotz, and that was the kind of

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Speaker 4: way of signaling it. We don't know where that information

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Speaker 4: came from or or because it turned out that in

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Speaker 4: fact the shooters were in a car and they fled.

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Speaker 4: They fled the scene in a car, as we later discovered.

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Speaker 3: And we also we also in silence, we start to

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Speaker 3: experience the process of connecting some of these dots.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: One thing that's really interesting was the first murder with Olivier.

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Speaker 3: They actually both of these murders so far, I think

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Speaker 3: we could say they were pay for play, Like these

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Speaker 3: people we were being financially compensated. Correct. There was not

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Speaker 3: just a personal grudge, right, like you didn't promote my

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Speaker 3: band or something.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 4: I mean again, there were rumors at the beginning that

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Speaker 4: this was personal grudges. And in fact, another weird element

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Speaker 4: of the initial police report is this guy basically gives

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Speaker 4: a false confession and says that he killed Fritz because

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Speaker 4: of some stolen drugs and that information, you know, leaked

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Speaker 4: his way into the community. But that guy actually recanted

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Speaker 4: his confession. Nonetheless, he was prosecuted, went to jail, and

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Speaker 4: the state actually vacated his conviction. So it was like

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Speaker 4: completely made up. And you have to wonder, like why

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Speaker 4: would this young, you know, teenage kid with six p

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Speaker 4: officers standing over him say that the victim had been

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Speaker 4: killed over drugs. I mean, you have to feel like

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Speaker 4: somebody was feeding him that. It's just too weird.

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Speaker 6: It's a pretty typical hallmark of these kind of fix ups,

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Speaker 6: you know, where they have to have a fall person,

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Speaker 6: and oftentimes those confessions are recanted or details immurgered that

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Speaker 6: it was you know, coerced or in some way done

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Speaker 6: under duress. So I mean, that's not unusual at all,

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Speaker 6: and I think, while not proof positive, very very suspicious.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely, But then yes, it turned out they were

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Speaker 4: able to I think we have a relatively high degree

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Speaker 4: of confidence identify and convict that the shooter and the driver,

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Speaker 4: but as to who paid them, the police to this

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Speaker 4: day have never uncovered. We developed some leads, but remarkably frustrating,

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Speaker 4: particularly as the killings continued, even with the shooter in jail.

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Speaker 6: Okay, let's take a quick pause here for a word

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Speaker 6: from our sponsor. They want to come back with more

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Speaker 6: from Oz.

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Speaker 3: And we've returned with Oz wollution.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about Louis Thermatus. I think, how you say it,

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Speaker 2: that's right. This is a fascinating character that comes into

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Speaker 2: the story here. He owns a music shop, right or

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Speaker 2: a music store, yah, But he's also an events promoter

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Speaker 2: or a music promoter of some sort. How, I really

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Speaker 2: want to talk about the export of culture, right, export

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Speaker 2: of music and everything that's happening there, as well as

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Speaker 2: the export of drugs as Haiti is playing this very

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Speaker 2: crucial part as a midway point right to get cocaine

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Speaker 2: into the US. Like, how does that all come together?

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Speaker 2: In what part does Louis play well?

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Speaker 4: For the sake of legal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, should we call him something else? Oz?

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Speaker 4: We use his name in the podcast, so it's fine.

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Speaker 4: But we're very clear that he was never convicted of

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Speaker 4: any crime in relation to these murders or in relationsis

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Speaker 4: drug trafficking. We didn't find any evidence, hard evidence that

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Speaker 4: he was responsible, but there were certainly all of these

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Speaker 4: leads that suggested he knew more and so we actually

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Speaker 4: we tracked him down, which you can hear in the show.

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Speaker 4: But yes, and the police tried to run a wire

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Speaker 4: tap on him, but according to a DA agent, the

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Speaker 4: wire tapp was botched. So he was this kind of

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Speaker 4: looming figure in the background. He was accused by the

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Speaker 4: community of being a Tonto mccoot, which he denied, and

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Speaker 4: he was described by a police officer who we interviewed

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Speaker 4: as a middleman and a distributor, and his relationship his

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Speaker 4: business was described as quote an extension of the government

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Speaker 4: of Haiti, So that was kind of really fascinating. But yes,

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Speaker 4: I mean he brought Haitian music, Haitian bands to Miami,

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Speaker 4: and of course the power of music to bring people

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Speaker 4: together and to have influence in small communities is very strong.

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Speaker 4: And so here's an influential figure. You have money. Again,

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Speaker 4: their allegations that he was involved in the drug trade,

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Speaker 4: which we didn't corroborate, but certainly he was a person

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Speaker 4: of interests the DEA, and so stories started to spread

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Speaker 4: that he was in some way involved in the killings.

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Speaker 4: And in fact, Matt too excellent question. The tinder Box,

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Speaker 4: at least for the first two killings, seems to have

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Speaker 4: been one of his concerts.

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Speaker 3: So this is kind of the elephant in the room

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Speaker 3: for a lot of people who maybe aren't in the

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Speaker 3: Haitian community but live near Little Haiti. They're thinking, like

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Speaker 3: you said, about nightclub lifestyle, they're thinking about drugs, and

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Speaker 3: they may not be fully aware of the way Haiti

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Speaker 3: has become a functioning transit point for the cocaine trade

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Speaker 3: in particular, but it seems that some US forces were

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Speaker 3: very intimately aware of this. And as we have to

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Speaker 3: ask you, how does the CIA show up in this story?

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Speaker 4: Well, it's a comedy.

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Speaker 3: I totally by the way I totally put my finger

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Speaker 3: on the scale of that question where I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 3: drugs anyway, CIA, what's up?

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Speaker 4: So obviously, you know, we all know about the CIA's

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Speaker 4: history and the aces involving drugs and weapons and money

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Speaker 4: and uh Nicaraguay exactly fueling anti communists militias and death squads,

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Speaker 4: and so interestingly, the de Valier regime fell in nineteen

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Speaker 4: eighty six. Baby Doc de Valier was never really interested

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Speaker 4: in governing, only interested in you know, French champagne and

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Speaker 4: fancy clothes and money, and so there was actually a

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Speaker 4: military coup against him in nineteen eighty six. But the

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Speaker 4: military leaders who succeeded him, many of who have been

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Speaker 4: betrained at the Army School of the Americas in Georgia,

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Speaker 4: which obviously is a well known CIA recruiting spot. And

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Speaker 4: the episode I will as everybody else, No, no, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 4: I should have done that already. That was crazy, but

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Speaker 4: I'm real looking forward to it because you obviously know

395
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Speaker 4: much more about it than I do. But so they

396
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Speaker 4: were these military types who took over were some of

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Speaker 4: them were later revealed to be on the CIA payroll.

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Speaker 4: Suddenly a lot they had a lot of contact over

399
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Speaker 4: the year with US intelligence, and the CIA put together

400
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Speaker 4: a report in nineteen eighty eight saying basically, you know,

401
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Speaker 4: if Haiti doesn't have strong rule, like a desperate government

402
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 4: could turn to the USSR instead. And so this is

403
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Speaker 4: really late eighties. The CIA is still worried that Haiti

404
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 4: might go Cuba's way, you know, two years before the

405
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Speaker 4: end of the Cold War and become a kind of

406
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Speaker 4: Russian satellite island. And so that informed every part of

407
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Speaker 4: the CIA's policy in Haiti, which included, you know, having

408
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Speaker 4: these military leaders on the payroll. It also included setting

409
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Speaker 4: up this counter narcotics intelligence force called the SIN or

410
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Speaker 4: the acronym was SIN, which was probably a little bit unfortunate.

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Speaker 4: And these SIN leaders became basically because they had you know,

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Speaker 4: untrammeled power in Haiti, they became the favored liaison of

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Speaker 4: the Colombian cartels, and drug trafficking through Haiti just exploded

414
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Speaker 4: at this time, and so you had this ironic situation

415
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Speaker 4: where the CIA is sort of chosen partners in terms

416
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Speaker 4: of governance and intelligence, were also operating on behalf of

417
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Speaker 4: the Colombian cartel. And there's one very telling story actually

418
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Speaker 4: isn't in the podcast, but it's kind of fascinating, which is,

419
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Speaker 4: there was a DA bust in nineteen ninety one of

420
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Speaker 4: a relatedly high ranking SIN person, and the DA guy

421
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Speaker 4: basically nailed down how this guy was involved in Colombian

422
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Speaker 4: cocaine trafficking, and for the DEA it was like a

423
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Speaker 4: big moment. They thought they were going to finally unwind

424
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Speaker 4: this network. But then the DA agent got a death

425
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Speaker 4: threat called into his home by somebody who identified himself

426
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Speaker 4: as the superior of this sin agent, i e. Like

427
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Speaker 4: one of the leaders of the military hunter, And rather

428
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Speaker 4: than any response from the US, the guy was just

429
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 4: immediately evacuated and the investigation was over. So it does

430
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Speaker 4: beg these questions as to as to I would say,

431
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Speaker 4: competing priorities. The DA was sort of basically trying to

432
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Speaker 4: do gum shoe law enforcemently, but the people they're investigating

433
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Speaker 4: evidently had protection from a much more senior agency, I

434
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Speaker 4: think the CIA.

435
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 3: And that's what's that's that's sticky too, because this is

436
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 3: I'm really glad you're bringing up this story about these

437
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 3: events in the nineties, because there's there's a continual thing,

438
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 3: a continual implication and mystery about people being somehow protected,

439
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 3: and Matt, I know that that probably spoke to all

440
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 3: of us, right especially, it comes to a head in

441
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 3: in a very interesting interview in episode five, right there's

442
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 3: in particular I'm thinking about that, how does this protection work?

443
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 3: Does it seem that there truly are these shadowy forces

444
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 3: that are saying this person is untouchable.

445
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 4: Well, our big question was, you know, these for murders

446
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 4: that happened in Miami, you know where the future and

447
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 4: the driver in the first two murders went to jail,

448
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 4: but nobody else ever, not the shooters in the second cases,

449
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 4: certainly not the intellectual authors. And who was behind intellectual authors?

450
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the question that always fascinated me in

451
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 4: this story is were people being protected for some reason?

452
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 4: Is that why we didn't see justice? And you know,

453
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 4: as it goes reporting these stories, you can raise the question,

454
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 4: you can do your best. You know, we couldn't nail

455
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 4: down an answer to that question. But it did seem

456
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 4: like seemingly every nefarious person who had decision making authority

457
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 4: in at at the time was seemingly, in one way

458
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 4: or another a CIA as it. And so there's also

459
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 4: this very shadowy character whose code name was literally the Shadow,

460
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 4: Who's this Canadian Canadian mercenary pilot who was also involved

461
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 4: in the Biafra war and he was kind of the

462
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 4: go between between the military Hunter and the CIA, or

463
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 4: at least that's how he branded himself, and so we

464
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 4: had questions about him and what he knew. And obviously,

465
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 4: you know, this silencing of the radio broadcasters in Miami.

466
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 4: We believe that the intention was to make sure and

467
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 4: we were told by police officers that they ultimately came

468
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 4: to believe the intention was to make sure these guys

469
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 4: didn't influence US policy. So it was crazy to think

470
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 4: that these like very local murders on the streets, so

471
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 4: this ethnic neighborhood in Miami could have tentacles that the

472
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 4: rais exactly the question you just raised, Ben. But we

473
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 4: you know, we got some interesting stuff in the podcast.

474
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 4: I definitely listened, but we weren't able to fully nail

475
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 4: them down unfortunately.

476
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 2: That cocaine money, man, that's a lot of money. I

477
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: feel like you could influence a lot of people to

478
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: do a lot of things with that money.

479
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 6: Well, I think there's an interesting meta quality to this

480
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 6: podcast as well. I mean the name of it is

481
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 6: obviously the radio murders we're talking about people speaking out

482
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 6: through broadcast and podcasts now have become this kind of

483
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 6: extension of traditional broadcast radio, and there is power in

484
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 6: that ability to communicate. I mean, I remember one of

485
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 6: the true crime shows I worked on involved a serial

486
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 6: killer who's still incarcerated, and it didn't occur to me

487
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 6: till close to the episodes coming out that I could

488
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 6: be targeted by this person who exists, you know, still

489
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 6: and maybe has followers who could dos meet your figure

490
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 6: out how to send people after me and my family,

491
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 6: And this realization just kind of hit me, and of

492
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 6: course nothing ever came of it, but this is a

493
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 6: situation where things are definitely coming of it in terms

494
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 6: of people speaking out against dangerous people who are still

495
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 6: out there in the world in America in a place

496
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 6: where you're presumed to be safe to be able to

497
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 6: have that freedom of speech, but not necessarily the case

498
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 6: when when you're dealing with that amount of money, that

499
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 6: kind of interest from these powerful and dangerous people, How

500
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 6: did that occur to you at all, or when you're

501
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 6: doing this kind of reporting, just the position that you're

502
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 6: playing in that kind of game of telephone, you know,

503
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 6: in this ability to kind of spread information and the

504
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 6: potential for maybe even you to be targeted in some way.

505
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, of course it crosses your mind. I

506
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 4: think obviously as a you know, as a white dude

507
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 4: several hundred miles away from from Miami. You know, your

508
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 4: your fears are a less than they might otherwise be.

509
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 4: But it's a really good point you make about podcasting.

510
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 4: I mean, in some ways, these four guys, you know,

511
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 4: they were just buying the airtime by the hour, playing

512
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 4: their music, talking about what was on their mind. Sometimes

513
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 4: it was you know, local politics and international politics. Sometimes

514
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 4: just you know, fun banter, and in a sense like

515
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 4: these guys were the early podcasters and the radio technology

516
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 4: you know, allowed them, allowed them to kind of have

517
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 4: that opportunity. But by the same token, that meant that

518
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 4: people didn't want to see them as like Capital day

519
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 4: j journalists. I mean, like some of the debates we

520
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 4: have today frankly, like who's a journalist and who isn't.

521
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 4: But in the case of these guys, like their murders

522
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 4: were not treaters, the murders of journalists, people kind of

523
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 4: diminish what they did as just kind of you know, commentary.

524
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 4: And so the way I came across the story was

525
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 4: my co host Anna Arana actually wrote a report for

526
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 4: the Committee to Protect Journalists in the early nineties about

527
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 4: the murders of ethnic journalists on US soil, so Haitian community,

528
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 4: the Vietnamese community, I think, the Taiwanese community. And I

529
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 4: read her report, and her big thing was, you know,

530
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 4: if somebody is murdered to silence them, that is a

531
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 4: federal civil rights jurisdiction. And if these people were using

532
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 4: the radio to inform their community, they were journalists. And

533
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 4: any argument to the contrary, you know, has some kind

534
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 4: of either elitism or snobbism or racism involved, because what

535
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 4: is I mean, unless you want to do a totally

536
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: talmudic interpretation of journalists, and what is it other than

537
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 4: you know what we're doing.

538
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 6: Now, storytelling. Yeah, and just you're right exactly now. I

539
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 6: think that's a really good point. Yeah, thank you.

540
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: Hey. I want to jump back just a little bit

541
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: more to talk about the relationship the United States had

542
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: with Haiti and why that was so important, why policy

543
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: within the US towards Haiti was so important, And it

544
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: comes in the story that I believe it's Bill O'Neil

545
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: who tells a story in the podcast. But there's this

546
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: weird thing that happens where Aristide is elected comes into power.

547
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: We mentioned this. This is a big deal, right, everybody

548
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: was celebrating. There's a coup attempt early on, before he's

549
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: even inaugurated. Then he's only in power for seven eight

550
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: months something like that. So the US decides, well, okay,

551
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: we need to take action. I believe this is the

552
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: way the order goes in. The US takes action by

553
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: deploying a naval ship called the USS Harlan County to Haiti.

554
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: What happens as it's approaching the country.

555
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 4: So yeah, So Aristide is overthrown a coup in nineteen

556
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 4: ninety one, and the military regime who replaced him go

557
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 4: about a campaign of slaughter basically of his supporters. And

558
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 4: so what that means is you have more and more

559
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: and more refugees fleeing to the US on boats. And

560
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 4: that's always politically unacceptable, as we know today. And so

561
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 4: the US is a certain point, even though they have

562
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 4: appreciated the stability brought by their partners in the military,

563
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 4: basically said, this refugee crisis has to end, you military

564
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 4: figures have to make an agreement with Aristeid that he

565
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 4: comes back and there's a peaceful transition of power. You

566
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 4: guys get amnesty, but you know, we've got to stop

567
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 4: the refugee crisis. So the military guys say yes, yes, yes,

568
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 4: and the US send a ship to prepare for the

569
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 4: arrival of Aristide with some marines and basically making sure

570
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 4: that he's not killed when he gets off his boat,

571
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 4: which is coming in a week later. As they put

572
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 4: into the dock, this paramilitary force called FRAPP basically take

573
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 4: over the dock. They've been using the radio in Haiti

574
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 4: to summon their supporters and they basically make this wild

575
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 4: scene on the dock and they're chanting. This was like

576
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 4: a week after black Hawk down in Somalia as well.

577
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 4: If you land the dock, if you land the ship,

578
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 4: this will be another Mogadishu. This US diplomat arrives on

579
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 4: the dock to try and diffuse the situation. They hold

580
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 4: him at gunpoint, hold him hostage, and the ship. Bill O'Neill,

581
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 4: as you mentioned, is watching this UN Human rights observer

582
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 4: from his window and he just sees the USS Navy

583
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 4: ship just turn around and disappear back over the horizon

584
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 4: to dock where it came from, which ironically enough was

585
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 4: one time I'm obey, And so that's it. No no

586
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 4: return of Aristide. And what's quite remarkable is that Frapp,

587
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 4: the leader of Frapp, was also a CIA s it,

588
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 4: and he claimed the CIA knew in advance of his

589
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 4: plans at the dock, and that he'd assured them that

590
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 4: no American life would be heard. But they let it

591
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 4: go yet.

592
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: But it's so nuts to me that action was only taken,

593
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: at least the way I understand it, action was taken

594
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: to send that ship because of optics, right, I mean

595
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: that ultimately it feels that way, right, because the policy

596
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: is to maintain the power that's there in the military exactly.

597
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 4: An Aristide while he was in exile was basically a

598
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 4: lot of pressure was put on him in return for

599
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 4: being sent back, to accept various economic reforms, to give

600
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 4: amnesty to his political opponents. So he eventually did go back.

601
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 4: But you know, many people say that he was a

602
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 4: different person, and so yes, the optics of having him

603
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 4: in power could stem the refugee crisis, but the policies

604
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 4: that he wanted to enact the first time round. He

605
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 4: had to basically a chew as a condition of being

606
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 4: allowed to go back. And those policies were policies are

607
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 4: the left, redistribution reform, military reform, dispanding the military, things

608
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 4: which were extremely unpopular to the powers that be, and frankly,

609
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 4: there's some of their allies in the US.

610
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the key points to tease

611
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 3: out here. Although it may seem it may already seem

612
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: wild to some of us listening today to start with

613
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 3: a brief history of Haiti and then go to a

614
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 3: series of, as you said, for murders, and then all

615
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: of a sudden, this rabbit hole takes us to talking

616
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 3: about the dirty, dirty business of the intelligence game. Right.

617
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 3: The way that this web connects is endlessly fascinating to me.

618
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: I think one of the questions people will ask at

619
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 3: this point is does it seem that does it seem

620
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 3: that the US practices toward Haiti are meant to keep

621
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 3: the country down or are they meant to push it

622
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: toward a certain ideological vision like that you know, you

623
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 3: said they don't want another Cuba, right, What does the

624
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 3: CIA want in this situation? And is it constant or

625
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 3: does it or that's an accidental pine. Is it consistent?

626
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 3: I should say, does it change over time?

627
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 4: I think that's a great question, and I don't think

628
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 4: there's an evil genius saying, you know, how do we

629
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 4: make Haiti's future as difficult and terrible as possible? I

630
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 4: think it's that's a downstream outcome of other types of decisions.

631
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 4: That said, a police officer in Miami did tell us that,

632
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 4: you know, having chaos in Haiti basically allowed the US

633
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 4: to continue to exert maximal influence because an unstable country

634
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 4: with a small elite, a military elite and business elite,

635
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 4: which to all the world looks like it's you know,

636
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 4: quote unquote whole country. There's not a civil society resistant

637
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 4: to the imposition of whatever the powerful neighbor's whims are

638
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 4: because it's being relied on for humanitarian aid and for

639
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 4: you know, weapons and all those kinds of things. So,

640
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 4: you know, the last project I worked on was about

641
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 4: Mexico and the as a women on the on the

642
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 4: El Paso Twyre's border, which you very kindly had me

643
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 4: on the show to discuss. And you know, it's not

644
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 4: great being a much poorer country in the backyard of

645
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 4: a much bigger and richer one. And one of the

646
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 4: guests we spoke to on the podcast, you know whose

647
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 4: Haitian compared it to situation Ukraine, which it was extremely provocative,

648
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 4: but basically saying what Russia would not allow Ukraine to

649
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 4: come into the Western sphere of influence, and she was saying,

650
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 4: it's the same for for Haiti. So, I mean, that's

651
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 4: a hot take, but the provocative.

652
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 3: And we're gonna pause for a word from our sponsor.

653
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 3: We'll be right back with oswallution and silence the radio murders.

654
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 6: And we have returned. Let's jump right back into our

655
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 6: conversation with us.

656
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,919
Speaker 2: So I want to get back to Conston, that guy

657
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: that we said was the head of RAPP, who was

658
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 2: also CIA. I guess, and it's a it's a question

659
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: about power projection. It's interesting to me the tactics this

660
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: individual would use to incite fear in people who opposed him,

661
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: as well as insight, I don't know, some kind of

662
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: fervor in people who were following him. Could you talk

663
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 2: a little bit about some of the ritualistic stuff he

664
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: would do to just project an image of power.

665
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, So Chucha Constein was kind of like a rich

666
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 4: kid that his father had been the army chief of

667
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 4: staff to Papa Doctor Valier, and apparently young Toto would

668
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 4: hear his father and Papa Dooct plotting late into the

669
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 4: night about how to control Haiti, how to exert power policy,

670
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 4: and so in this chaos after nineteen ninety one and

671
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 4: the coup against Aristid, he emerges as this sort of

672
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 4: figure who is able to win the trust of US

673
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 4: Intelligence because he's speaks English perfectly, He's been Western educated,

674
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 4: his father dealt with, you know, people from the agency

675
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 4: in the past, and so he has this one side

676
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 4: of his personality, which is this very suave, sophisticated, smooth

677
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 4: operator who knows how to get what he needs from

678
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 4: US Intelligence. But he also understands the very powerful iconography

679
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 4: of power and violence which he learns from Papadoctor Valier.

680
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 4: Papa Doctor Valier would kind of Voodoo religion is like

681
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 4: very much, you know that the common religion of the

682
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 4: people in Haiti, but there are certain Voodoo archetypes who

683
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 4: have different valances, and Papa Dooct leant very heavily into

684
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 4: the archetype of Baron Samedi or the Lord of Death

685
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 4: and dressed like the Lord of death and basically constant

686
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 4: in the early nineties in order to kind of was

687
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 4: basically very consciously drawing on this Lord of death papadoct

688
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 4: iconography apparently would emerge from this pile of burning skulls

689
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 4: which were rumored to be the skulls of his victims,

690
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 4: and so real showman, a real showman, and what he

691
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 4: wanted to do was to, you know, he was the

692
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 4: perfectly educated gentleman with the with the intelligence agencies, but

693
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 4: he was the you know, the Papadoc's successor with the

694
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 4: you know, Haitian people. And the fact that he was

695
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 4: so versatile I think speaks to one of the bigger

696
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 4: themes of this show, which is kind of like information wars,

697
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 4: and you know, the power of controlling the message or

698
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 4: the power of controlling the image. And so then there's

699
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 4: a whole another layer of complexity, which is saying that

700
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 4: you're on the payer of the CIA can get your

701
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 4: power even if you're not so like there's you know,

702
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 4: it's it's it just goes, you know, layer and layer

703
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 4: and layer into into basically how you project authority in

704
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 4: a place where there's no real media, and it's very

705
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 4: hard to separate fact from fiction.

706
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: But if somebody in Miami is countering what you are

707
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 2: projecting there in Haiti, it could be a real problem,

708
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 2: I imagine. Like and just that concept of undermining a

709
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 2: message all the way over in a different country is

710
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: so fascinating to me. And I just feel like you

711
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 2: are when you are all out projecting an image that

712
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: may not be true. It is very, very dangerous to

713
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: have a journalist saying the true things, no matter what

714
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: they are.

715
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 3: And state powers know this. I mean, I'll say the

716
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 3: quiet part out loud. Check out Voice of America. You

717
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 3: know what I mean. Ask why they do what they

718
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 3: do where they do it. It's true there is this thread

719
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 3: of what's sometimes called hearts and minds in a dismissive way,

720
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: But information media, they're another theater of conflict, right, another

721
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: sphere in which these battles can occur. And I think

722
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 3: one of the one of the things that a lot

723
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 3: of us hearing the broad strokes of this story today

724
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: need to understand is that this was not that long ago.

725
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 3: The nineteen nineties were not super long ago. People active

726
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 3: in this story are still around, and we've got to

727
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 3: ask us, did you find yourself just as as a

728
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 3: journalist as a creator and storyteller, you know, you you

729
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 3: really go hard in the paint with this stuff. Did

730
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 3: you ever feel that you were in an uncomfortable situation

731
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 3: where you were talking to some of these people.

732
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, a couple of times. Suddenly when we went to

733
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 4: go in doorstep mister thermatist, that was that was pretty uncomfortable.

734
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 4: But we had another interview which and we were kind

735
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 4: of expecting that to be a bit scary and uncomfortable,

736
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 4: so we prepared for it. So that's one thing. But

737
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 4: we had another interview with a source in Miami who

738
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 4: basically went crazy and started shouting like the people you

739
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 4: were reporting on with filth, they were scummed, they were

740
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 4: drug dealers, and what are you doing wasting your time?

741
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 4: And it was kind of quite shit like shook us

742
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 4: up a little bit and we're like, wow, what like.

743
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 4: But what we realized was like, the contest over the

744
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 4: interpretation of this story is still relevant, and so he

745
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 4: was somebody who was very much, you know, obviously on

746
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 4: the other side of this divide, and so the kind

747
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 4: of litigation as to why these people were murdered and

748
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 4: who killed them and remains relevant. So that was that

749
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 4: was pretty fascinating. And then of course, while we were

750
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 4: in Miami and one of our reporting trips, I think

751
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 4: the president of Haiti, Jovenel Mayes, was assassinated, and that

752
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 4: made us think as well, Okay, I mean this has

753
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 4: all of the same hallmarks in terms of drugs, in

754
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 4: terms of US intelligence, in terms of like control of

755
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 4: the region. And so we actually get to the assassination

756
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 4: towards the end of our show and hopefully, you know,

757
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 4: some of the drivers and context required to really understand

758
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 4: that killing also come through in our reporting.

759
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 6: Well, I hear stories like this and this kind of

760
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 6: reporting and seeing the red threads that they run throughout it,

761
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 6: and the connections to the United States and the kind

762
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 6: of you know, covert parts of the United States government.

763
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 6: I think the US likes to project itself as having

764
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 6: this moral high ground, as like being this moral authority

765
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 6: in the world. And the more you hear about stories

766
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 6: like this, the more you realize it's all kind of

767
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 6: optics and there is no moral high ground and whatever

768
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 6: other you know, totalitarian regime you know, at least they're

769
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 6: outward about it.

770
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 7: It just makes me reallyugh, it just kind of sucks

771
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 7: some of the hope that you have out of thinking

772
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 7: that maybe we live in a country that does you know,

773
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 7: want something better or have I just I don't know,

774
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 7: I'm just rambling here.

775
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 4: No, but I mean, yeah, I hear you. But on

776
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 4: the other hand, like this was a place where people

777
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 4: wanted to come, and as horrific as their treatment was

778
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 4: when they arrived, they did settle here. You know, they

779
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 4: could speak freely for a bit until they were killed.

780
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 4: I mean, it's not I mean it's I think it's

781
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 4: it's you know, there's of course, it's that there's a

782
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 4: lot to criticis size, but there are I mean, there's

783
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 4: a reason why this continues to be the country where

784
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 4: so many refugees from whether Afghanistan or Haiti or Ukraine

785
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 4: want to come. And so that, you know, I think

786
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 4: it's it's also good not to be too nihilistic, because

787
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 4: there's you know, the good, the good parts are worth

788
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 4: celebrating and preserving, and so like im, you know, yes,

789
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 4: I think it's that the behavior, particularly outside of the

790
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 4: borders is pretty appalling and Guantanamo. Funny enough, when when

791
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 4: Haitian refugees in the nineties were fleeing. If they were

792
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 4: intercepted at sea, they were actually sent to Guantanamo and

793
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 4: held there while their like case was being processed. So

794
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 4: the the the use of Guantanamo's a detention center post

795
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 4: nine eleven was also kind of I would say, tried

796
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 4: out during this period of Asian history, which is quite

797
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 4: quite intense think about.

798
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: So I want to celebrate the good parts of you know,

799
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: refugees coming to the United States, because they are and

800
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 2: we should. I think I was a little naive going

801
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: into this when thinking about the dangers that younger people,

802
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 2: the children of refugee families who make it here, the

803
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: potential influence because of their usually their parents' situations of

804
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: being overworked, like having to make ends meet, being alone

805
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 2: a lot of the time, the potential influence of darker

806
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: forces like gangs and groups that could influence them and

807
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 2: maybe pick them up as a second family or something.

808
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 2: You talk about that in the show.

809
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 4: Did you see.

810
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 2: Any of that in speaking to people?

811
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think the gang recruitment issue was

812
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 4: huge in the early nineties. And of course, you know

813
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 4: the fact that the people who pulled the trigger, to

814
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 4: anyone's real mind, are not the people who need to

815
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,439
Speaker 4: be you know, course the age people, it was justice

816
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 4: in the sense they commits to murder, but it wasn't

817
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 4: their idea. So it's like different from a normal murder.

818
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 4: And the fact that you had this population of kids

819
00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 4: of refugees living in Miami, Haitian refugees bullied at school.

820
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 4: There's a lot of stigma that Haitians carried AIDS at

821
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 4: the time, you know, and their parents were working you know,

822
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 4: double shifts to send money back home. That they couldn't

823
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 4: have been a more fertile population to recruit to do

824
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 4: dirty work. And so what we found was a lot

825
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 4: of these like Haitian military figures and Tom Tomcootz who

826
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 4: ended up in Miami. They didn't do their own dirty work.

827
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 4: Instead they recruited the kids of fellow refugees. And so

828
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 4: that was another thing. The radio broadcasts will call me

829
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 4: out on air. They were saying, like these people are

830
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 4: corrupting our kids, that we have to stop this. Like

831
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 4: not only they you know, trafficking cocaine, they're using our

832
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 4: kids to do it, and they're using the proceeds to

833
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 4: support the regime in Haiti. It's like the most disturbing

834
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 4: and horrific vicious circle, and so yeah, on all parts

835
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,240
Speaker 4: of that circle, there was this kind of contest because

836
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 4: the nexcess of the drugs and the power and the

837
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 4: money and the influence both in Miami and Haiti was

838
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 4: so strong and also so hard to understand for people

839
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 4: outside the community. I think that's you know again, I

840
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 4: mean the police. I think there were many problems with

841
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 4: the investigation, but to be faster that it also wasn't

842
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 4: necessarily the easiest one.

843
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: And this this gets us to even even further toward

844
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: the present day. We have seen that practice occur in

845
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 3: other diaspora communities. You know, there is a very disturbing

846
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 3: and very valid argument that the US, the US is

847
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,959
Speaker 3: one of the creators of MS thirteen, you know, Mara

848
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 3: Sava and so on, and we can see something similar here.

849
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 3: I'm I'm also you know, to be fully transparent with

850
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 3: everybody on the show today, folks, we don't know how

851
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 3: how the how the show ends yet we are again,

852
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: it's still in publication, so episode seven is going to

853
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 3: be available for everyone, I think in the next week

854
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 3: or next week.

855
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 4: But if you're a subscriber to iHeart True Crime Plus,

856
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 4: you can get it early. So yeah, oh yeah, and

857
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 4: we have eight episodes total.

858
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 3: Eight episodes total. So what do you hope people can

859
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 3: take away from this from this story? And you know,

860
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 3: like as as we said, some of the some of

861
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 3: the people who are clearly involved in the murders have

862
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 3: not been held to account. So what can the average

863
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 3: listener walk away from the show with?

864
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's what's worth fighting for is always

865
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 4: an important question. And you know, First Amendment rights being

866
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 4: able to speak freely. An attack on anyone that speaks

867
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 4: freely in this country that goes unpunished is an attack

868
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 4: on that right as far as we concern me and

869
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 4: me and my partner Anna, And so you know, there's

870
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 4: a lot of extreme political divide, to say the least,

871
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 4: in this country right now, but there are some things

872
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 4: that should be bipartisan. And no matter how much you

873
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 4: don't like what somebody else is saying, you shouldn't wish

874
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 4: physical harm on them for saying it. And so that's

875
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 4: one thing. I also think what's really important is getting justice.

876
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 4: So you might say, oh, thirty years later, does it

877
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 4: really matter, Well, the smears about these people are still alive.

878
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 4: They got smeared in our interview process or they were

879
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 4: drug here as they was come, but all of our

880
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 4: reporting suggested the opposite. So categorically answering who is responsible

881
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 4: for this is very important. And then thirdly, I mean,

882
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 4: I don't know what you do with the information, but

883
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 4: I think just the awareness that these bigger forces of

884
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 4: geopolitical power can be at play in the most seemingly

885
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 4: surprising places I just find personally very fascinating. Else what

886
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 4: drew me into the story, there's this brilliant Joan Didion quote.

887
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 4: She wrote this book Miami about the basically the the

888
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 4: CIA's attempts to success for attempts to you know, ferment

889
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 4: the anti Castro invasionary forces in Miami, and she has

890
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 4: this line, decisions taken in Washington from time to time

891
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 4: leave a certain residue on the board. And that phrase

892
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 4: a certain residue on the board is very I mean,

893
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 4: it's that, unfortunately, is what the victims of these crimes

894
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 4: were as far as Langley is concerned.

895
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 2: You know what, lesson residue on my board? Your theme song?

896
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little theme song? It's so good.

897
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm so happy you like it. It's actually a

898
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:44,320
Speaker 4: friend of mine who called Oliver Rodigan Akaki Denza. His

899
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 4: father basically was one of the pioneers of bringing dance

900
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 4: hall and reggae music to the UK. David Rodigan and

901
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 4: Oliver is the most brilliant composer written for Space Jam

902
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 4: and Beyonce as well as our podcast which is.

903
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 2: Kind of so good.

904
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:08,439
Speaker 4: And I heard Beyonce bragging about yeah, yes, and let's

905
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 4: talk about it, but.

906
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 7: No, I'm with you, Matt.

907
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 6: It has a very visceral quality that evokes the themes

908
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 6: of the show and that's not easy to do in

909
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 6: a instrumental piece of music, so very much. Yeah, kudos

910
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 6: to that and the whole score, and it's the whole production.

911
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 6: It's really something to be incredibly proud of.

912
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 4: Well, thank you.

913
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 3: Do check out the show, folks. You know, we we

914
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 3: talk about these things when they are important to us

915
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 3: and when we feel like there is a story that

916
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 3: needs to be told, and this is very much the

917
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 3: case with the Radio Murders, so Oz, we've got to

918
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 3: we've got to let the people know. As we mentioned

919
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 3: at the top, you have many other projects that you

920
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 3: have worked on, some of which we've discussed at length here.

921
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 3: On stuff they don't want you to know for the curious,

922
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 3: where can they learn more about your work? Where can

923
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 3: they hear this show? Where can they find you or

924
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 3: other projects?

925
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,440
Speaker 4: So this show is called Silence the Radio Murders and

926
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 4: you can find it wherever you get your podcasts, especially

927
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 4: iHeart podcast app and iHeart True Crime plus love our

928
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 4: partners at iHeart. And then as for our other work,

929
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 4: I've actually recently launched a production company with my partner Mangesh,

930
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 4: who you all know very well.

931
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:25,879
Speaker 2: There I go.

932
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 4: Big, and the production company is called Kaleidoscope. You can

933
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 4: find all of our shows on www dot kash Scope

934
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 4: dot com and I think our Twitter is Caliodscope Podcasts.

935
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 4: So this is honestly a little darker in tone than

936
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 4: much of what we do at Kalidoscope. Our next show

937
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 4: is about this leftist Greek bank robber who robs the

938
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 4: rich to give money to the poor in Greece. As

939
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 4: it happens, he is also on the on Something to

940
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 4: poll list and like very high up on the agenda

941
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,760
Speaker 4: of US intelligence because of fears about leftist contation in Europe.

942
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 4: So we can never fully resist. But that one's and

943
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 4: we have one about the last Soviet cosmonaut who got

944
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 4: trapped in space when the Soviet Union fell, and we

945
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 4: always yeah, we're we're We're so excited to have a

946
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 4: chance to talk about shows on other wonderful shows like

947
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 4: this one. So thank you.

948
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 2: No.

949
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 3: I also highly recommend a wild chocolate and I, in

950
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 3: full transparency, I do, I do make a small cameo

951
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 3: on Mangesh's project Skyline Drive, which is ostensibly about astrology,

952
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 3: but I don't want to spoil any more than that.

953
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 6: I think I'm on there somewhere too. I did a

954
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 6: thing for him.

955
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 4: The top right exactly.

956
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 3: So thank you to our Thank you to our pal

957
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 3: Mangesh as well, and Oz, thank you again so much

958
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,240
Speaker 3: for your time. We are right there with you, folks.

959
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 3: We can't wait to see or here, I should say

960
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 3: the conclusion of again this incredibly distressing, profoundly important tale.

961
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 6: In the meantime, let us know what you thought about

962
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 6: this interview, your thoughts on this and other stories we

963
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 6: cover on the show. You can find us on various

964
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 6: social media platforms. Of note, we are Conspiracy Stuff on Twitter, YouTube,

965
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 6: and Facebook. Conspiracy Stuff Show on Instagram and TikTok.

966
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 2: If you want to give us a call, dial one

967
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 2: eight three three stdwytk. It's a voicemail system. Please give

968
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 2: us a cool moniker, just not your government name. Just

969
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,879
Speaker 2: keep that anonymity there and you give You got three

970
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 2: minutes say whatever you want. If you want to say

971
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 2: more than that, why not instead send us a good

972
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 2: old fashioned email.

973
00:56:44,640 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

974
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

975
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

976
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.