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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host Mark Kenyan. In this this episode number one

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Speaker 1: to in the show, we're joined by John jenn and

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Speaker 1: n and we're diving deep into the topic of blood

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Speaker 1: tracking and recovering a hit white tail. All right, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Wire to Hunt podcast, brought to you by

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Speaker 1: Sick of Gear. And today the show, we are diving

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Speaker 1: very deep into the process of properly blood trailing and

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Speaker 1: tracking a hit year. And surprisingly, this is something we've

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Speaker 1: never really talked about a whole lot on the show

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Speaker 1: to this point, and it's a big, I don't know

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Speaker 1: mistake on my power, I suppose, because this is such

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Speaker 1: an important topic. I mean, we do all this work

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Speaker 1: to put ourselves into a position to get a shot

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Speaker 1: a deer, but then once we do well, you know,

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Speaker 1: the work usually is not nearly over being smart about

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Speaker 1: how we track and trail those deer after the shot.

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Speaker 1: It's so important and in a lot of cases it's

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Speaker 1: significant challenge. So today we are bringing on one of

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Speaker 1: the absolute foremost experts on this topic. John jenne and

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Speaker 1: John is a author of two books on this topic.

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Speaker 1: He's a renowned breeder and handler of tracking dogs. He's

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Speaker 1: been on over one thousand tracking jobs, and he was

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Speaker 1: inducted into the two thousand and twelve No Sorry. In

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, he was inducted into the New York

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Speaker 1: State Outdoorsman Hall of Fame. So, quite simply, we are

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Speaker 1: in for a serious treat today, but before we get

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Speaker 1: to the main event, we've got a little side show

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Speaker 1: for you. As usual, my co cost you know, that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what it is, right next to the bearded woman. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this is the mini circus is gonna happen

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Speaker 1: here for a second, Me and Dan do have a

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Speaker 1: few updates for you. So if you'll bear with us, Dan,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? Let me count how many times I've

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Speaker 1: hunted since the last time we talked. Oh that's right, zero.

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Speaker 1: I have been into in the stand zero times since

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Speaker 1: uh the last podcast, since uh actually since last Saturday night.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not talking about this past Saturday. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about two Saturdays ago. So it's been uh not not

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Speaker 1: what I kind of was hoping for. So so now

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Speaker 1: I have some assumptions. But I want to hear it

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Speaker 1: from the horse's mouth. Why haven't you been hunting? Alright,

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Speaker 1: so let's see here. Obviously work, um, obviously kids, right,

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Speaker 1: But my wife had to do something she she every year. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's different times of the year. She does this thing

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Speaker 1: where she goes to something called a mommy market and

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Speaker 1: she's like sells all the kids use clothes and some

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Speaker 1: of her uh goods that she makes, and um, and

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Speaker 1: you know, tries to hack it. This time. It happened

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Speaker 1: on Saturday, this last Saturday, and uh, and then I

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Speaker 1: had some some family stuff I had to do with

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Speaker 1: my step mom's burial. Uh. And then I had a

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Speaker 1: wedding on Sunday night. So it was and then you

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Speaker 1: know that brings us to right here because I didn't

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Speaker 1: hunt Sunday. I wasn't able to hunt Sunday night. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't able to hunt last night. And here we are

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Speaker 1: talking about hunting and I haven't hunted. You sound so

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Speaker 1: gloom right now. I'm kind of glum man. I missed. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I'm just uh a really a pretty decent cold front

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Speaker 1: come through. Um. You know a lot of those guys

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Speaker 1: are talking about the October lull that's supposedly going on

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Speaker 1: right now. I got a trail camera that is h

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Speaker 1: on that food plot that I planted, and the deer

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Speaker 1: are on it every day now there's even during daylight.

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Speaker 1: So there's not necessarily any mature buck sightings yet minus one.

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Speaker 1: There's been a three year old that's been visiting it.

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Speaker 1: But there's been daylight deer movement and that's a positive.

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Speaker 1: So what's what's the next hunt on the horizon do

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Speaker 1: you have? I mean, there's another cold front pushing through

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Speaker 1: in the next few days. Are you gonna be able

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Speaker 1: to catch that one? Yeah, Friday this weekend, for sure,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be able to hunt. Um. Friday night, we've

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Speaker 1: got a southwest wind. I'm kind of debating on two

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Speaker 1: different stand location. One is going to be a running

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Speaker 1: gun actually it's going to be a running gun on

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Speaker 1: public property. The other one that borders a property that

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Speaker 1: I can hunt, and then the other one is going

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Speaker 1: to be going down to my main farm and trying

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Speaker 1: to connect with some of the deer that I saw.

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Speaker 1: I put a trail camera on this fence line by

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Speaker 1: where the all these deer we're piling out. Um. The

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Speaker 1: previous weekend, so like two weekends ago, on that Friday

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Speaker 1: night where I said I saw that shooter, but he

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Speaker 1: was down the fence line. Uh, try to connect with

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Speaker 1: that and kind of see what that's what's going on there,

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Speaker 1: and you know, just try to get back into the

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Speaker 1: swing of things. Check some trail cameras, you see where

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Speaker 1: the signs kind of popping up, and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: play it by ear. Hopefully I'll be able to hunt

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Speaker 1: a couple of times throughout next week as well and

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Speaker 1: really start trying to put the pieces of the puzzle

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Speaker 1: together nice. Well, if you had to miss some time

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Speaker 1: to hunt, you know, this past week and a half

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Speaker 1: was probably not the worst time to do it. As

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Speaker 1: we're you know, it's hopefully it's gonna be ramping up

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Speaker 1: and getting better from here. Um. I did have a

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Speaker 1: few kind of exciting hunts since we last chatted. I

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Speaker 1: saw some I saw some trail camp pictures. Man, looks

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Speaker 1: like Michigan is not the small buck state anymore. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not the big buck state either, but it's decent

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Speaker 1: um the medium bucks state. Yeah. Um, I can't remember

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Speaker 1: if last time we chatted if I had seen holy

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Speaker 1: Field yet or not, but Tuesday night. I think we

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Speaker 1: record last Tuesday, so that evening after we got done recording,

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Speaker 1: I checked out this little spot where I can see

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Speaker 1: Holy Field from the road sometimes and lo and behold,

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Speaker 1: right last night, bam there was And so I saw him.

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Speaker 1: But he was just he There's this little patch of

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Speaker 1: cover that I told you about that he sometimes beds in,

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Speaker 1: and he just popped out of that piece of cover

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Speaker 1: and it's it's in you know, easy sight from the road.

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Speaker 1: You can see this cover. It's not that far from

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Speaker 1: the road. But he beds in this little patch up close.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of weird. And I saw him and this

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Speaker 1: is like right at the end of being able to

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Speaker 1: see with my binoculars. And he walks out in front

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Speaker 1: of my food plot. And I've got that screen of

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Speaker 1: cover around it that sorghum in Egyptian wheat, and you

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Speaker 1: walked on the outside of that, so not in my

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Speaker 1: food plot, not where I would be able to see

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Speaker 1: him if I was hunting, but on the outside of it,

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Speaker 1: and paralleled it all the way around to the outside

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Speaker 1: for maybe fifty sixty yards, and then he actually started

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Speaker 1: bumping a dough um and then he disappeared to get

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Speaker 1: too dark, That's all I saw. Well, fast forward a

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Speaker 1: couple of days, and as we talked about last time,

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Speaker 1: my plan was to stay off this farm, not hunted

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Speaker 1: until later in the year. So I was sticking with that.

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Speaker 1: We had a little bit of a cold front hit,

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Speaker 1: like you said last week. So I've got a couple

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Speaker 1: of different properties I'm hunting this year, um that are new.

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Speaker 1: So I had to one of those Thursday evening and

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Speaker 1: did a running gun set, and I screwed up. Um.

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Speaker 1: I had looked at the maps. I've never hunted here before,

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Speaker 1: but I looked at the maps and I saw, all right,

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Speaker 1: this big block of timber. There's a swamp over here,

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Speaker 1: and there's an intersection of a standing bean field in

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Speaker 1: the standing corn field and this big timber. I thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: there's probably some oaks in there. And then I've got

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Speaker 1: the standing beans and the standing corn. And from what

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Speaker 1: I've been seeing right now, the deer are either hitting

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Speaker 1: the mask you know, acorns, or they're hitting the beans

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Speaker 1: really hard everywhere I've been seeing them. So I thought

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Speaker 1: to myself, Okay, this could be a great spot where

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Speaker 1: all this stuff comes together. And what was really nice

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Speaker 1: about is since that since I never hunted here, I

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Speaker 1: kind of want to hunt. There's an observation stand somewhere

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Speaker 1: I could just see a long ways and learn, and

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Speaker 1: I had a west northwest wind, and there was a

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Speaker 1: house on the edge of this property, and I could

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Speaker 1: hunt where this whole where all this stuff kind of

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Speaker 1: intersects was like really close to this house and yards.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, I can sneak through this backyard

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Speaker 1: and my wind will blow right into their backyard, you

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Speaker 1: know not, I'm not going to spook any deer probably,

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Speaker 1: And I can get set up right here and at

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Speaker 1: least being a spot that hypothetically looks pretty decent and

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Speaker 1: it's super safe to get into, and I can just

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Speaker 1: watch and learn something tonight. So I sneak in there

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Speaker 1: with my stand. I'm going to do that, and then

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Speaker 1: I just start like second guessing everything. I'm like, wow,

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Speaker 1: I am really close to this house, and man, that

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Speaker 1: corner way down there, closer to the swamp does look

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Speaker 1: really good, and there's a big oak tree down there,

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Speaker 1: and long story short, I second guess myself out of

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Speaker 1: my initial gut instinct, I said a stand about a

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Speaker 1: hundred yards maybe eight yards farther down the line that

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Speaker 1: I originally planned on, and about twenty minutes before last night,

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Speaker 1: a big mature eight pointer steps out of that standing corn,

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Speaker 1: walks right down the edge past where I was gonna hunt,

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Speaker 1: and steps into the timber, right where I should have

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Speaker 1: been sitting, and I had to watch all this. I

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Speaker 1: do that every year, man, Every year, I will try

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Speaker 1: to talk myself in or out of a different position.

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Speaker 1: When you know, you go into the timber after all day,

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Speaker 1: you know, I look at Google Maps and you know

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Speaker 1: probably what you did. Okay, here's my access, here's my

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Speaker 1: wind direction. You get there and you're like, wow, man,

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Speaker 1: that over there it looks just as juicy as this place.

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Speaker 1: But I think the big buck's gonna step out down there,

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Speaker 1: and exactly what happened happened painful. And then as you

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Speaker 1: as you know, it gets worse. While I'm hunting there

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Speaker 1: that night, not only do I see this big buck

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Speaker 1: step out out of range where I should have been,

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Speaker 1: but then I get a text message from my trail

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Speaker 1: camera on my main Michigan farm, and holy Field is

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Speaker 1: standing in front of my tree stand in broad daylight

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Speaker 1: for twenty minutes. So there's that. So then the next

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Speaker 1: day I said, well, screw it. I've gotten to daylight

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Speaker 1: you know, confirmation of daylight activity from holy Field Tuesday

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Speaker 1: night and Thursday night. So it's like, I gotta hunt

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Speaker 1: there Friday. Like he's a daylight walker, I gotta try.

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Speaker 1: And there's only one spot I can hunt with a

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Speaker 1: wind I had, so I snuck in there. I actually

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Speaker 1: had my wife bring the a TV and drive me

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Speaker 1: down this field to get me in here, because I've

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Speaker 1: been trying all these different access routes to get in there,

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Speaker 1: and I still, you know, I'm not seeing him. So

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, maybe even though I'm doing all these

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Speaker 1: crazy things, maybe that's still not good enough. So I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, let's try this. Um, because there's been

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Speaker 1: all such a farm equipment around there in a couple

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Speaker 1: of days beforehand, they've been picking the beans, so I thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, hopefully he'll just think this is another farmhand

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Dropped me off and then she drove off away,

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Speaker 1: and um, that didn't work either. I didn't see him.

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Speaker 1: So that was that. And that's all the hunting I've

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Speaker 1: done since I have, Like you said, I got some

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Speaker 1: good trail camera pictures. I had those daylight pictures of

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Speaker 1: holy Field, and then two nights later I had that

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Speaker 1: nine point show up. Um, he's a three year old

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Speaker 1: I think is my best guess. Um, so I kind

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Speaker 1: of don't really want to shoot him. Um, holy Field

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Speaker 1: is really the one I'm after, but that's that. And

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Speaker 1: then I got some great pictures in Ohio. There's some

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Speaker 1: nice big bucks down there. Blades is a buck they've

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Speaker 1: been hunting for three years. He showed back up. Boss

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Speaker 1: is a big eight pointer that's here for the second year.

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Speaker 1: And then one of the eight pointers that we saw

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Speaker 1: this summer. He's been showing up. But everything's dark still,

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Speaker 1: everything's at night. So um, that's kind of where things stand.

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Speaker 1: I'm waiting until some daylight that Tiffert happens down there where.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe I'll head down when that cold front hits

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Speaker 1: in about a week or ten days down there. So nice, nice, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's getting to that time of year where I mean

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Speaker 1: thing this are going to start slowly start ramping up.

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Speaker 1: I got guys telling me you know that. Uh. I

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Speaker 1: shared a post today about you know, the rut this

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Speaker 1: year is supposed to be from the eighth to like

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Speaker 1: that's gonna be the peak rut. Um, according to Charles L. Schemer, right, exactly,

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Speaker 1: exactly the guy who makes the predictions, right. So then

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Speaker 1: the moon theory out. So then we got other guys

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Speaker 1: who have been doing a lot of hunting telling me

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Speaker 1: they feel it's gonna be early because they're seeing a

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Speaker 1: lot of deer, a lot of bucks pushing dose already,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily chasing them, but you know, sniffing bumping them.

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Speaker 1: You know exactly what holy Field did to the dough

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Speaker 1: that you saw, And so I don't know he knows.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what we we we just have a couple

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Speaker 1: of seconds here. But I mean, do you we talked

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Speaker 1: about this last year. We haven't really circled back on

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Speaker 1: a year later. Do you put much credit into that

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Speaker 1: whole moon theory when it comes to the to the rut? No?

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Speaker 1: Not really? This is I mean, I really can't because

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Speaker 1: if I'm going to justify, if I'm going to justify

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Speaker 1: my decision of time off of work based off the

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Speaker 1: moon theory and if a hot you know, let's say

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Speaker 1: that moon, that moon theory holds true, but the weather

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Speaker 1: is really really hot, Like I think, like me and

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Speaker 1: you've talked about we're gonna try to hunt the cold

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Speaker 1: weather as opposed to you know, the best moon phase

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Speaker 1: on hot weather, right, So I just it. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I can't, I can't follow real in line with it.

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Speaker 1: The rut happens. When the rut happens, and you're gonna

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Speaker 1: that time of year, your best bet is just to

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Speaker 1: be in a tree stand as much as you can.

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Speaker 1: Very true, Very true. And um, I I agree with

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Speaker 1: you percent. I think weather and like you said, we've

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Speaker 1: talked about us a lot, weather always trumps the moon. There.

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Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still a semi believers slash tester of

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Speaker 1: the theory when it comes to some of these other

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Speaker 1: moon theories, you know, whether it be the moon overhead,

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Speaker 1: underfoot or the rising setting moon and how that might

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of enhance some of that movement a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Um, I think there might be something that

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Speaker 1: I'm still you know, we're still intrigued by it. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the timing of actual breeding, like

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Speaker 1: it seems pretty darn set in stone, at least in

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Speaker 1: the northern half the country, that's very consistent year in

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Speaker 1: and year out due to photo period. So yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: just like you. I young hunt every day I possibly

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Speaker 1: can during the rut. But if I were planning my vacation,

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Speaker 1: if I had the flexibility, I try to wait and

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Speaker 1: see what the weather forecast was and try time it

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Speaker 1: with that. And then if not, you know, if you're

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Speaker 1: looking for something that could sway you a little bit,

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Speaker 1: you know, you could look at that moon stuff and

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Speaker 1: research that. But getting I already have the seventh, see

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Speaker 1: the seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, and eleventh scheduled to be

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Speaker 1: off work. Now those other days, those other five days

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Speaker 1: that I'm dead kating to taking time off, could be

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Speaker 1: potentially be before that, so like Thursday Friday or Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: Thursday Friday, um, and then and then take off the

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Speaker 1: Monday and Tuesday of the following the following following week,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So I'm not getting uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, three weekends in a row, which would be optimal,

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Speaker 1: but I might be catching that peak breeding a little

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Speaker 1: bit more, right, or that peak rud activity. Yeah, yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: and I've never really whenever I've taken my my time off,

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Speaker 1: it's always been the first, you know, the first two

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Speaker 1: weeks in November. When I think, as I'm starting to

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Speaker 1: get older, man, I don't know, I think maybe that

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Speaker 1: third week is going to be just as good as

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Speaker 1: opposed to the first week. I don't know. I've always

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Speaker 1: been a big believer in that first two weeks to um.

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Speaker 1: But also, you know, for some guys, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of states to have their firearms season open up in

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Speaker 1: mid November, like in Michigan, our season opens November. So

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Speaker 1: basically you need to get it done those first two weeks,

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Speaker 1: um or it's you know, kind of chaos after that.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, man, I'm excited about the ret

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Speaker 1: I'm excited for for you to get out and do

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Speaker 1: some hunting too. I need some good stories. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm ready to spend some time in a tree. I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you that. Yeah, well, how about this. Let's take

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Speaker 1: a break now for a quick word from our sponsors

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Speaker 1: at Sick of Gear, and then we're gonna give John

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Speaker 1: a call and he's going to give you Dan some

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Speaker 1: advice for how to track that big old buck you're

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Speaker 1: and shoot here soon. Well, I'm gonna shoot him right

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Speaker 1: through the heart. So it's really not gonna I don't

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Speaker 1: need to really, it's tips at all, But just kidd

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Speaker 1: I hope that's the case. But in the in the

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Speaker 1: off chance that doesn't work out for you, Dan, We're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk to John all right, Well, what that said.

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Speaker 1: We do want to thank our partners at Sick of

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Speaker 1: Gear for their support of this podcast, and today we're

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Speaker 1: bringing you a quick sits story from Wade James, a

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Speaker 1: Sick of White Tail ambassador, professional photographer and videographer and

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Speaker 1: the editor of our two thousand, fifteen and sixteen Wired

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Speaker 1: to Hunt webisodes. And Wade has that an incredible two

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Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen season already, and it was capped off

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Speaker 1: just recently with a successful hunt that occurred under some

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Speaker 1: unusual and memorable circumstances. You just kill an awesome buck

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Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, but some people are popularly referring to it

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Speaker 1: now as the pp Tree buck. Why is that? That's

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Speaker 1: a that's a funny story. When we were hanging the

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Speaker 1: set for the stand, I knew the area I wanted

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Speaker 1: to get a stand up in, and I took my

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Speaker 1: four year old daughter with me, And while I was

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Speaker 1: up there climbing and hanging the stand, she was messing

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Speaker 1: around on the bottom few steps of the of the

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Speaker 1: screwing steps that I had, and she ended up slipping

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Speaker 1: off and hitting herself in the crotchrell region and getting scared.

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Speaker 1: So I climbed down to make sure she was okay.

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Speaker 1: And after we're done hanging the set, I kind of

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Speaker 1: asked her, you know who we name that tree stand

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Speaker 1: that you picked out? And she said we should name

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Speaker 1: it the p P Tree, Dad, So I just laughed

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Speaker 1: about it. And it's kind of stuck, so we can't

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Speaker 1: do with the p P Tree. Now. Fast forward a

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Speaker 1: little bit later into this fall, something good happened there.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me about how everything came together? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I knew that this spot needed, uh the right wind obviously,

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Speaker 1: and I had the first frost of the year coming

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Speaker 1: with the wind that I needed to that stand. So

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Speaker 1: I picked my daughter up that helped me hanging the stand,

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Speaker 1: picked up from preschool and asked her the tree she

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Speaker 1: daddy going tonight and she said the p P Tree.

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Speaker 1: So I kind of scurried out to my lease, got

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Speaker 1: up in the stands, and I ended up shooting one

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Speaker 1: of my nicest bucks out of that spot. I heard

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Speaker 1: a grunt across the creek. I hit the grunt tube

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Speaker 1: twice and I heard the dear splash across and hit

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Speaker 1: it two more times to soft grunts, and I had

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Speaker 1: two does, two button bucks and then this book comes

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Speaker 1: fildering up through seven yards right in my shooting lane,

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Speaker 1: stopped it, shot it and it ran about fifty yards

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Speaker 1: and dots. So just it's crazy that my four year

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Speaker 1: old picked out the tree that I was gonna kill

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Speaker 1: my bucket this year. You just never know where that

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Speaker 1: great hunting vice might come from. But what I do

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Speaker 1: know is that this was a sick story as Wade

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Speaker 1: was wearing a sick of fanatic hoodie and shack it

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Speaker 1: and the fanatic light bibbs. So if you'd like to

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Speaker 1: learn more about sick of gear for yourself, you can

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Speaker 1: visit Sitka gear dot com. And now back to the show.

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Speaker 1: All right with us on the line now is John

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Speaker 1: jen n A. Welcome to the show. John, Well, it's

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Speaker 1: a pleasure to be here. Yeah, we appreciate you taking

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Speaker 1: the time to do this. And I gotta I gotta

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Speaker 1: tell you when I originally had the idea to talk

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Speaker 1: about this topic of tracking and blood trailing and recovering deer,

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Speaker 1: I asked a handful of people that I really respect,

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Speaker 1: and everybody pointed me to you as the person that

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Speaker 1: I needed to talk to, so both I and Dan

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Speaker 1: and I think all of our listeners are excited to

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Speaker 1: hear some of your expertise and your experiences when it

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Speaker 1: comes to recovering deer. And I suppose before we get

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Speaker 1: into all that, could you just share with us a

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Speaker 1: little bit of your background how you came to have

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Speaker 1: so much experience when it comes to this type of thing. Well,

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Speaker 1: it really starts when I wounded a deer in myself

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Speaker 1: and UH, I was very upset about it. UH plug

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Speaker 1: hit my shotgun slug and I spent a whole day looking.

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Speaker 1: There was no blood and UH a week later, some

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Speaker 1: other hunters found the deer in a weil three yards away.

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Speaker 1: And at this time I realized that if I had

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Speaker 1: had a good dragon dog, the types that they use

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Speaker 1: in Europe, this wouldn't have happened. And I had learned

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Speaker 1: about tracking dogs in Europe. I was doing some research

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Speaker 1: at the French National Forestry School and I made a

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Speaker 1: number of German UH friends there to their German exchange students,

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Speaker 1: and they introduced me to tracking dogs and UH Germany

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Speaker 1: and wear hair docksins Already. I came home from that

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Speaker 1: research here UH with my first docks. And of course

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Speaker 1: the problem at that time was using a tracking using

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Speaker 1: a dog in any form in deer honey was illegal,

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Speaker 1: and that was not just my state of New York State,

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Speaker 1: but pretty much over the uh the whole Northeast and midwest.

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Speaker 1: Uh the the South was different. We don't have to

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Speaker 1: get into that now. Uh So I applied to our

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Speaker 1: conservation department for a research permit to see if this

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Speaker 1: would work over here. After a lot of talking, I

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Speaker 1: got that permit and began to take calls for hunters

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Speaker 1: who confined their deer. And my luck was I had

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Speaker 1: amazingly good dog and we were very successful. So that's

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Speaker 1: the way it got started. And so the research permit

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Speaker 1: was expanded to other people who were interested in tracking dogs.

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Speaker 1: And then finally the whole procedure was legalized in nineteen

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Speaker 1: and it started in So this is a long way off,

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Speaker 1: a long way back. But anyway, for the next forty years,

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Speaker 1: I'm one now. I was tracking with some very smart

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Speaker 1: dogs who taught me a lot. Because the dog doesn't

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Speaker 1: a so called blood tracking dog doesn't need blood to track.

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Speaker 1: They follow the individual set of the deer. We can

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Speaker 1: go into that later if it's necessary. Uh, and it

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Speaker 1: was possible to see what wounded deer do when they're

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Speaker 1: hit and when they go uh farther. Uh. Then Otter's

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Speaker 1: ordinary ordinarily able to track. And I ended up taking

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Speaker 1: over well actually exactly eleven hundred and eight calls, and

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Speaker 1: my dogs taught me a lot. I really ought to

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Speaker 1: the dog. I ended up, you know, with a pretty

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Speaker 1: good idea of how to evaluate a hit. I wrote

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Speaker 1: a book on that, and uh, how to track them

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Speaker 1: when there's no blood to track with. And I wrote

429
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: a book on that, tracking dogs for finding wounded deer.

430
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 1: And I've had a wonderful time with this. Uh. You know,

431
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: I think it's important for ethical conservation reasons, but tracking

432
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 1: with a dog, working in partnership with a dog on

433
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: a difficult task is an extraordinary experience in itself. You know,

434
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: it helps you to be a little bit of of

435
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 1: a dog yourself. And this has been my passion. Now,

436
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 1: like you mentioned a second ago, so you've written a

437
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: book on how to use dogs to help find deer,

438
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: and then also what you've learned from your dogs, you

439
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 1: know that you've now applied in another book about just

440
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: generally how to go on this whole process of a

441
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: final one dead on. So, so kind of what I

442
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: wanted to do here was kind of framework conversation around

443
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: both of those two topics. Maybe start with some of

444
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 1: the things that we can do without a dog, and

445
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: then eventually we can also talk about what you could

446
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: do if or how to find someone who's a dog,

447
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: or what to do if you had a dog, or

448
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 1: all these different things. So, so maybe can we start

449
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 1: from beginning, gen Let's say I'm a hunter and I've

450
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 1: just shot a deer. With let's say I'm i'm bow hunting,

451
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: I've just shot a deer. What are some of the

452
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: things that we as a hunter should be thinking about

453
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: immediately at that point as soon as that arrow hits

454
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: the deer? What are the some of the things that

455
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: we should be thinking about to help make sure we

456
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: can get that proper recovery. Okay, first, I think you

457
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: should try to get is UH good of a memory

458
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: of the hit site where the arrow entered the deer.

459
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: If that's possible, then you have to decide what your

460
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: tactics are going to be for finding that deer. The

461
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,719
Speaker 1: deer may go fifty yards and collapse, and that's the

462
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 1: most likely UH scenario. And you know that's great, But

463
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: if you don't um actually see the deer go down,

464
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: I think it's a good idea to get down fairly

465
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: quickly and go to the hit site and evaluate it,

466
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: and depending on what you see, you can decide how

467
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: to handle the situation. Shan. I think too many of

468
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: the writers in the past have tried to deal with

469
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: wounded deer all in one category. Oh, you always wait,

470
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: you wait eight hours, you do whatever, And I think

471
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: that this is oversimplifying the thing. You will you go

472
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: to the hitsite. Of course, it's great if you can

473
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: recover your arrow and you smell it. A lot of

474
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: partners don't do that. But the if you smell that arrow,

475
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: if it's going a little bit far back into the paunch,

476
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: you're gonna smell kind of a cow barns smell. If

477
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: it's going back a little bit farther, uh, it's going

478
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: to be a deer dropping smell. Uh. And if that's

479
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: the case, you know you've got the gut shot and

480
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: you don't want to uh get started on this right away.

481
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: I think the ideal point there is to back out,

482
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: uh and wait if the cayos will let you do it.

483
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 1: For eight hours and then go in and track, and

484
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: by that time the deer should be dead or very

485
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: um much weakened. But on the other hand, uh, suppose

486
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: you see bone fragments, Almost always those are from the legs.

487
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: Now in cases like that, the old saying, oh, always

488
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: wait is all wrong because in a case like this,

489
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: the deer is going to bleed out through the broken bones.

490
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: But you've got to push the deer to keep it

491
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 1: uh the blood flowing. If you let the deer bed

492
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: down and relax, uh, the blood will stop coagulate much sooner.

493
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: So you've got to make that evaluation. You look for

494
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: evidence of a check a shot, that's what you want.

495
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: But my dogs have taught me that a one longer

496
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: is not always fatal. I've learned by talking to medical

497
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: people that when along collapses, the flow blood uh to

498
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: that long cuts way down and they deer or the

499
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: wounded soldier uh can survive on the other long and

500
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: then very often that that long actually comes back into

501
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: function later on. Uh. So here Uh, you know, it's

502
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: kind of tricky. I think the best situation be wait

503
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: two hours and then push the deer. You know, we

504
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: can learn a lot from Army medics when a soldiers wounded,

505
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: they try to keep him quiet and keep the blood

506
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: flow down. Uh, they don't let him exercise. So you know,

507
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: you have to make all these distincts, and you make

508
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: those by evaluating the hit site, and of course, evaluating

509
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: that type of hair that you've got is a very

510
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 1: important part of this. Now, this is complicated. I just

511
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: don't deal with it in my book because in different

512
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: parts of the United States the hair color and composition

513
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: is quite different, depends on the season two. But evaluating

514
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: the hair is very important. And you do all these things,

515
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: and then you decide what you're uh tactic is going

516
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: to be for finding that dear. Something new that's come

517
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: in since I started tracking in the northeast, Uh, the

518
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: coyotes invaded. And now if you are you leave an

519
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: animal out overnight UH where I track, you've got a

520
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: thirty percent chance of having it devoured by coyotes. So

521
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: you've got to balance to this uh into your plan

522
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: of how to attract that deer. It's more complicated than

523
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: it used to be. Yeah. So so step one, we've

524
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: we've checked out the site, we've analyzed the arrow, we've

525
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: smelled it, we've looked to see if there's hair. Maybe

526
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: we've checked to see the color of the blood and

527
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: things like that to try to figure out, Okay, where

528
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: did I hit this deer? If I don't know for sure.

529
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: So you said, if it's a gut shot or a

530
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: punch shot, wait at least eight hours. What about a

531
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: liver shot. Well, usually that goes with a punch shot

532
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: because the the liver lives alongside the stomach. But a

533
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: liver shot is and variably fatal. The want of liver

534
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to clot up, it continues losing. Now you

535
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: can read books that say that a liver shot deer

536
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: will never go more than four hundred yards or whatever. Well,

537
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: I've I've found them going unpushed, uh over a mile

538
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: and climbing the hill uh to bed down and die.

539
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: But they're going to die, and uh, you know, I

540
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: think on these cases it's better to wait and let

541
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: that loss of blood, that using loss of blood become fatal.

542
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: If you push it, the deer is still gonna lie die.

543
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: But if you you push it and it stops bleeding,

544
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: you're in trouble. Yeah, So so that's one of the situations.

545
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: Then along with gut shots that you recommend not pushing it.

546
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: But it sounds like you usually a gut shot and

547
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: the liver shot are uh combined because the liberal lies

548
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: are right alongside the main punch, main stomach. Yeah. But

549
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: then for a chess shot, so lung's heart, you're saying

550
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: get right after him, which, like you said, it is

551
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: a little bit different than what we hear from a

552
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: lot of people. Is that accurate? Yeah, I think it is.

553
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: I think you have to move when you begin tracking,

554
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: you a track with great caution. And it's nice to

555
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: have a hunting buddy. One person eye tracks, the other

556
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,239
Speaker 1: keeps his eyes out ahead to see if you can

557
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: get another shot. But a deer is more likely the

558
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: weekend if he shot in the lungs and if he's pushed. Now,

559
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: there are always other things that come into this. You know,

560
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: you've got property lines and so forth. Uh. I don't

561
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: want to confuse people here. I'm just saying you've gotta

562
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: think how every individual situation. Uh not just go with

563
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: the old boys advice wait until morning. What about body shots?

564
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: Like if I just get a bad like a brisket

565
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: shot in front of the shoulder or a hit in

566
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: the back lay. I mean, one of these worst case

567
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: scenarios where it's a shot that you typically don't think

568
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,479
Speaker 1: would be fatal. Do you push right after that with

569
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 1: the hope of maybe I can keep this dear bleeding? Um,

570
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: what are you doing? Yeah? With these body shots that

571
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: there are times when, uh, you can get the deer.

572
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: You know, there's a big femeral artery that goes down

573
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: along behind the bone on quarter. If you nick that,

574
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: you're gonna get that deer. But it's hard. It's it's

575
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: impossible to tell immediately whether you're just in flesh or

576
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: you're in that major artery. Same thing with the neck shots.

577
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: I don't like them at all. But if you uh

578
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: nick the juggler vein or the corrodit artery, uh, that

579
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: deer is gonna die. So you always try. I would

580
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: never advocate saying, well, there's no point in tracking this

581
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: deer because there's so many unknowns and uncertainties when you

582
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: evaluate the hitside. Yeah, how do you know when to

583
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: do that? I mean, I'll give a couple examples, and

584
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: one was a couple of years ago. I shot a

585
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: dough and my immediate reaction was dead. Dear, this this

586
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: dough is toast tons of good blood um for a

587
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: hundred yards. And I waited. I waited probably thirty minutes

588
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 1: because I felt that, you know, this dough is gonna die,

589
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: and that one hundred yards right towards the end of it,

590
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: it started just it it shut off. And then I

591
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: went maybe fifty sixty more yards and I found just

592
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: a little drop and then that was it. Um. I

593
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: had gone two yards. Then I started gritting, um, what what?

594
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: What's something that I may have done wrong? Or if

595
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 1: you were by my side, what would you have told

596
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: me to do? No? I think this is a pretty

597
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: good uh uh toxic that you did. Uh you may

598
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: have had, you probably had. You know, just a flesh

599
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: wound will lead heavily and then uh claught up. But

600
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: the next step, you know, when you run out of blood,

601
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: if you can call a tracker with a trained the

602
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 1: leash tracking dog, he's going to be able to take

603
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: that dear a lot farther. And uh, you know, you

604
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: may have a pretty good idea of where in the

605
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: muscle you hit the deer, for instance, on a high

606
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: neck shot or a high shoulder shot. We never get those,

607
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: but you know, the the tracker can help utter evaluate

608
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: the situation if the hunter gives him the detail. But

609
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: I think what you did was fine. If there had

610
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: been a tracker available and you figured you had a

611
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: pretty good hit, you could go farther. But a deer

612
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: will bleed very heavily from a flesh wound, but seldom

613
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: enough to kill him. What about that kind of no

614
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: man's land shot that some people talk about? This area

615
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: um that's debated, you know, just underneath the spine. Um.

616
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: Some people say that if you hit underneath the spine,

617
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: there's this area where there's not a lethal head. It

618
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: gets above the lungs and all that. What have you

619
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 1: seen from that type of situation? If you are those

620
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: deer recoverable or is that not gonna do? You know?

621
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: They're very tough. Those shots are very tough to evaluate. Uh. Generally,

622
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: if the arrow is UH, it's a deer less than

623
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: six inches from the top line as you see it,

624
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: which includes hair, the chances are poor, but they're exceptions. Everything.

625
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: There's a big arteries, a dorsal, a order that runs

626
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: along right under the spine, and if you clip that,

627
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: that deer is going to be down in a hundred

628
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: yards and there's no way that you can tell. And

629
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: also with those dorsal order shot, there's gonna be very

630
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: little bleeding on the outside. Blood is just going to

631
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: cascade into the chess cavity. M it's a tough one,

632
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: um with calls like that. If the arrow is definitely down,

633
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, six inches or more, we take the call.

634
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: But we know that the chances of getting the deer

635
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: are not great. Ah. Generally we found that if you

636
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: track a deer ah a half mile and he on

637
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 1: a chess shot, you know, if it's a chess shot,

638
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: high chess shot or whatever, if he goes a half mile,

639
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: he's probably h going to survive because he's got a wound.

640
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: That's that's going to coagulate and uh, you know, caught

641
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: up the blood old stop. But there's no way of knowing.

642
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: One of the great uses of a tracking dog is

643
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: to determine whether the deer is mortally wounded or not.

644
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: They make a big thing of this in Europe. They

645
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: call it a control search. But you know, but there's

646
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: no way that you can be sure at the hindside

647
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: of what you've got. And uh, uh, you know, I've

648
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: talked a lot of these deer, and the hunter is

649
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: really grateful when I can show him that his the

650
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: deer is going to be okay. He just doesn't want

651
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: that deer to rot in the woods, and I sure

652
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: respect that. Yeah, what were you saying? Well, I was

653
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: going to kind of go a little bit of a

654
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: different direction. I mean, after these deer and maybe you

655
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: can maybe buy all these track jobs that you've been on.

656
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: Whether the hunter has a dog or or doesn't have

657
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: a dog, do deer tend to do the same thing

658
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: every time after their wounded? You hear people talk about water.

659
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: You hear people talk about going down down hill, or

660
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: they'll they'll never jump a fence or or things like that.

661
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: Are there any trends that you've noticed that you can

662
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: share with us that might lad you ask that question. No,

663
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: I don't think that there are trends. When the deer

664
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: is wounded, he goes back. He tried to get back

665
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: to a place that's safe and secure his uh betting area.

666
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: Now during the rut, a buck maybe put away away

667
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: from that, but they'll go for that and they'll go

668
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: uphill or downhill. They go where they want to go. Uh.

669
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: A lot of times I've come in and I said,

670
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: we've looked everywhere. We can't put him this deer, We've

671
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: red searched the whole thing. What about that ridge over there, Well, well,

672
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: wounded deer won't climb a steep slope. Yeah, but the

673
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: dogs say he did climb it, and there's the deer

674
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: at the top dead. So you know the deer does

675
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 1: what a secure safety place for him? And the only

676
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 1: generalization I think that's holds pretty true as if a

677
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: deer is shot in the uh, intestines are the stomach,

678
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: gut shot. Uh, they will get thirsty. There all the

679
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: hydrate after a while, and if there's water available, they'll

680
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: go to that and they wait out. In a lot

681
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: of times we find them dead in the water. That's

682
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: kind of predictable. But other things, no, I'm just amazed

683
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: that what deer will do. Uh. Those usually won't go

684
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: as far. They're closer to their bedding area than a

685
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: buck during the run. But you know, if you get

686
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: caught up in these generalizations, the deer is going to

687
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 1: go always go downhill, And I haven't read this in

688
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: a lot of books. Uh, yeah, they will go downhill

689
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: if it's that's where they want to go. But a

690
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 1: deer goes where he wants to go until he runs

691
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: out of gas, runs out of blood, and that could

692
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: be in various places. Yeah, it's it's interesting to hear

693
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: that because I think so many of us have been

694
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: almost trained to just assume some of these generalizations are true. Um,

695
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's been ingrained in so manutes

696
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: over time. But it's interesting. I mean, I think your

697
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 1: sample size that you've been able to look at, you know,

698
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: well over a thousand you know, animals you've tracked, I

699
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: think it's pretty clear that if you're not seeing that

700
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: as a consistent trend, well, it's it's gonna be a

701
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: lot bigger than any of our sample size that we

702
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: can personally. You got to keep your mind open. Yeah,

703
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: for sure. I got a questions popped up that kind

704
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: of goes back to something we talked about a little

705
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: while ago. Um, when we were talking about determining how

706
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: long to wait. Um, and I know you said to

707
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: wait you know, a pretty decent amount of time eight

708
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: hours or more for a pawn to liver, intestine, etcetera, etcetera.

709
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: But what how does rain factor into that determination? Are

710
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: you going to change things up if there's rain in

711
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 1: the forecast or rain happening right now, that's a good question.

712
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: Rain will the loot the blood? Uh so that there's

713
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: nothing that the hunter can see, but the scent is

714
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: still there. And dogs also they track other scents that

715
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: come from the deer, particularly the interdigital scent. There's an

716
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: interdigital gland between the clothes of the hoof kind of

717
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: high on that uh slot there, and that as an

718
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: individual scent, and a dog when he's trained, will follow

719
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 1: that very well. So rain doesn't bother an experienced tracker

720
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: at all. And let's you know, if it's a three

721
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: or four inches, okay, that's one thing, but you know

722
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: there's the normal thing, a half inch, one inch, No,

723
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: the the dog can track just the same. Matter of fact,

724
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: that's better then dry windy conditions you know, early in

725
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: both season. Uh it allows dry leaves blowing around on

726
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: the ground and the humidity is low. That's a lot

727
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: tougher than the situation after most rainfalls. So what though,

728
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: what if you don't have access to a dog, would

729
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: you say that you? I mean, this is this is

730
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: the thing I always deal with myself as do I

731
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: do a head right in because I want to try

732
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 1: to take advantage of whatever small amount of blood is available. UM,

733
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: or do you wait a longer period of time because

734
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: your hope is that, you know, I'm not going to

735
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: have a blood trail of any sort, but hopefully he

736
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: dies or she dies close enough that when I do

737
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: kind of a body search, I'll be able to find it.

738
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: UM sounds like a dog is the best case or

739
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: the best option. But what if I can't get ahold

740
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: of a dog? What would you do? Then? Well? Then, uh,

741
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: you know, when you get to the point beyond fairly

742
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: easy tracking, quit and weight, because what you don't want

743
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: to do in a situation like this is, uh, jump

744
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: the deer out of his bed. You know, when he's

745
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: still alive and he takes off without blood, that deer

746
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: is gone. Now, if you've got a track in all

747
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 1: that's not a problem because you're gonna follow that deer

748
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: out of his bed. But generally, uh, you know, wait,

749
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 1: I'm not against grid searchers within uh in reason. Usually

750
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: uh this this dis represent but not to an extreme degree.

751
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: And then you've got a chance of finding a deer

752
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 1: like that. You know, it depends. If you're hunting in

753
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: brushy fields, you gotta work pretty closely and make a

754
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: pretty close grilled grid. If you're out in open hardwood,

755
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: you know, rove around and look in the general area,

756
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: you can spot a deer down, spot a white belly,

757
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: you know, a hundred yards away. But I you know,

758
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: I think in cases that don't involve broken legs, you're

759
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 1: better of waiting once you're sure that the deer hasn't

760
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: gone down you know in the area that there was

761
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: easy tracking. With leg hits, the blood uh comes out

762
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: through the marrow bone, and if you keep pressure on

763
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: the deer, he will bleed so that you can eye

764
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: track him and find him. I've tracked deer like this

765
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: four miles. No, that's unusual. But you can usually spot

766
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: a leg hit deer by bone fragments and also by

767
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: you know, smears on logs and so forth, with the

768
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 1: deer's drag just leg across the across the log. Yeah. Interesting.

769
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 1: So you mentioned this question of or you mentioned grid searching,

770
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: and Dan mentioned it too, And this is another one

771
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: of the things I've thought about, because I've got a

772
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: friend who has a tracking dog that I've you know,

773
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: thought about, and I usually will take her along on

774
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: track jobs. You know, even when I know it's going

775
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: to be an easy job, just because we want to

776
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: give her experience. But I think one of the questions is,

777
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: you know, lots of times if someone knows that they

778
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: can get a hold of tracking dog or something, there's

779
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 1: this question of when do I stop trying to find

780
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: it myself and get ahold of this person with a dog, Like,

781
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: at what point am I screwing things up more than

782
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: I'm helping them, um by trying to find it myself?

783
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: Because I know, for me at least, I mean, I

784
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: think a lot of us in the situation, we just

785
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: want to find our dear now and we just wanted

786
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: to happen. And so there's this like this allure of well,

787
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: let me just try a little further, let me just

788
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: look over this hill, or let me just circle this area. Um.

789
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: But some guys say, well you do that, you're screwing

790
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: up your chances of the dog being able to actually

791
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: find it in the future. So what do you say

792
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 1: to that, John, when do you when is it better

793
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: for me just to stop and pull out and get

794
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: ahold of that dog? Well, I would say, if you're

795
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: blood tracking by and uh, the deer has not laid down,

796
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: there's no evidence that the deer is uh, you know

797
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: about ready to drop back back out when eye tracking

798
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: uh becomes difficult or impossible. Ah. Now that's that's not

799
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: the European theory. But you know, in America you try

800
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: to do things yourself if you can. You know, it

801
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: depends so much on the circumstances. If you're in an

802
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: area where you think you could do a fairly effective

803
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: grid search over maybe U two hundreds a yard area,

804
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: you might good search that. But we do find as

805
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: trackers that when we go into an area that's been

806
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: good search where uh, you know, the deer center has

807
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: been trying backed up by the hunter, it makes things

808
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 1: more difficult. Usually I find I can uh amounts the difficulties,

809
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: but that's not the ideal. But as long as you

810
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: can eye track, uh, there's no deed for a dog.

811
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: You know, This whole business of calling the least tracking

812
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: dog a boot tracking dog to a mistake I used

813
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: to term myself. But they're useful. They've become useful when

814
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: there's no blood to track. How does that process usually work?

815
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: Are there? I mean? I know that tracking dogs and

816
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: their handlers are kind of becoming much more popular across

817
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 1: the country. Is more and more states to legalize it.

818
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: But I understand there's some different like tracking associations and

819
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: groups like that across the country that helps set up

820
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: hunters with a dog. Is that something? Is that true?

821
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: Is there some different people or organizations we can get

822
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: in touch with the find the right people to help. Yeah,

823
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 1: we you know we I'm a founder of two organizations.

824
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: H dear Search Incorporated New York States and then United

825
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 1: Blood Trackers. You know, we have co founders. Uh we Uh.

826
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: We don't provide people with dogs, but we give them

827
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: assistance in training and uh we also publicize the services

828
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: that they make available. For instance, and United Blood Trackers.

829
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,919
Speaker 1: You can go to their website and click on find

830
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: a tracker, and then you'll see the the states search

831
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: five states in which tracking is uh legal. You click

832
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: on the state and you can get a listing of

833
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: the trackers in that state, uh and where they're located,

834
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of a town. So that's uh,

835
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: you know, they play in the important role that way.

836
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: Dear Search in New York State actually does uh dispatching too.

837
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: When the hunter calls in said I got I got

838
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: a deer I can't find I try and everything. Uh,

839
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: they'll put him in touch with a tracking dog in

840
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 1: the area where he was hunting. So they play that role,

841
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 1: but you know, they they don't get involved in providing

842
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: the dogs. And you buy your your dogs kind of

843
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: on the open market. And then also these organizations have

844
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: promote the idea of tracking in states where it still

845
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: sounds like a crazy idea. You know, they tell interested

846
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: uh leaders, well, this is what our experience has been

847
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: in New York State or Vermont, and uh, you know,

848
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: we we give them, some of the correspondents the text

849
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: of the bills that have been passed so that they

850
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 1: have an idea where they're going. Speaking of bills and

851
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: laws related to this, what kind of laws are typically

852
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: around the use of tracking dogs? I think, I mean,

853
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: it's not like it's not free for all. Right, you

854
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: can't just go out there with the dog and and

855
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: go chase after these deer. Right. There are some limitations

856
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: and restrictions in in most states, Oh yeah, in all

857
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: but the Deep South and uh in Texas. Uh. Number one,

858
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: the dog has to be kept on a leash from

859
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: thirty to fifty Ah. In some states you can carry

860
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: a firearm, Uh, to put down the deer if it's

861
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: still alive. In other states, Uh, that's not permitted. Most

862
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: states allow tracking day or night, but some restricted to

863
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: the daytime. It's a very complicated thing. You know, there's

864
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 1: there's a set of theirs, five different regulations. But you know,

865
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: I think the important thing to realize is that, uh,

866
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: in the northeast and the mid that west, extending pretty

867
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 1: far south, the use of dogs in deer hunting was

868
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: a law outlawed for good reasons. It was uh, you know,

869
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: it was almost exterminating deer. And now the use of

870
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: tracking dogs is presented by the legislation as an exception.

871
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: And the important, most important thing here is the dog's

872
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: kept it all times on a tracking leash. Okay, now

873
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 1: what about if you know, I thought about this too,

874
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: What if you wanted to try to get your own

875
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: tracking dog. Is there any specific type of dog that's

876
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: best or specific things you should look for in a

877
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: dog if you were trying to get your own train

878
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 1: your own. Oh boy, that is a question. Uh. There

879
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: are specialized breeds that are used for tracking, and you

880
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: can buy them in Europe or from certain breeders in

881
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: the United States. For instance, they're the the Bavarian Mountain

882
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 1: blood ound from Germany, the Anivarian blood ound. What has

883
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: become very popular as a breed that I started with

884
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: the European wire haired doctrine, which is quite different from

885
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: the American doctrine. They're registered by a k C. But

886
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: they're highering, the legs, shorter in the back, I have

887
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: a wiry coat, and they you know, they're much more agile,

888
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: they are much more endurance. The right kind of lab

889
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: is very good, not the pet lab of the show lab.

890
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: Or they are kind of hyper lab that's used in competition, uh,

891
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 1: you know, retrieving competitions. But I see in some marvelous labs.

892
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: And then a breed from Texas is becoming more and

893
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 1: more popular now is the Blue Lacey. So there is

894
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: quite a number. But uh, and you can't always go

895
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: by breed labels. I mean they're duds, uh in all

896
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 1: these breed categories. And there are some very good dogs

897
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: that don't come out of one of these breeds. But

898
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: usually your your odds of getting a dog a talented

899
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: dogs are better if you stick with a breed that's

900
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: got the right temperament. Uh. And there the right habits

901
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: for using its nose, and a lot of it goes

902
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: into training to there there is a an opportunity to

903
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: buy good prospects. In the United States. The demand now

904
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: is very strong. The demand for tracking dogs is expanding

905
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: faster than the supply. But I think this is going

906
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: to settle out. Uh. The wire docks And that breathe is.

907
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: He's handy because he's a small dog that you can

908
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: easily the transport. He is a good small companion in

909
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: the house, and he can be very very uh talented,

910
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: But he's certainly not the only breed that can do this.

911
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 1: I would say wire docks And does not have a

912
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: bloodhound caliber nose. By the way, there are some American

913
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:32,399
Speaker 1: bloodhounds working too with a that's a lot of dog.

914
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: But you know, usually even uh a dock so And

915
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 1: is going to be able to attract wounded deer with

916
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: no visible blood anyway for up to twenty four hours

917
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: and uh in most of our hunting in the Northeast

918
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: and the Midwest, this is long enough. Now you get

919
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: trophy hunters that, oh they want that I rack. I

920
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,919
Speaker 1: shot the deer last week, but I don't care about

921
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: the meat. I just want a Uh, gorgeous set of

922
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: anilers there you want? You want American blood ount or

923
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: the Bavarian Mountain blood own or the Hannivarian blood. There's

924
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: no one perfect breed. I think you've got to find

925
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 1: what what suits you you best. So what about you know,

926
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:25,399
Speaker 1: the old ada as? You can't teach an old dog

927
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: new tricks? Is that true? Is this the kind of

928
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,319
Speaker 1: situation where you need to get a puppy to train

929
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 1: him or her to do this kind of thing? Or

930
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 1: can I take my Maybe I've had a lab my

931
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,359
Speaker 1: whole life and he's six or seven years old and

932
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: I want to train him to do this now? Is

933
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: that possible? Sure? I think it depends on whether the

934
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 1: lab has been h hated, has learned to use his

935
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: nose and you know, to relate to his handler. I've

936
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 1: had the best dog I ever had. I was clary

937
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: and she didn't start until she was four. Uh. But

938
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: you know, I don't a hundred other things with their

939
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: rack whose uh pheasants and and so forth. But to

940
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: just take a dog it's been a house dog and

941
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: asked them at five or six to to track, to

942
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: learn to stay on the right line, all that. Uh,

943
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:23,479
Speaker 1: that's reaching out pretty far. I think when you get

944
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 1: into eight or nine years old, by the time the

945
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 1: dog has learned from practical experience UH as well as

946
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: training what to do, the dog is gonna begin to

947
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: uh fail because of age. So you know, I think

948
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: the ideal thing for most people is to uh to

949
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: get a good puppy from a breeder who is into

950
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: blood tracking, and that's good blood tracking dog. But you

951
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: can develop other dogs to do this with appointing breeds.

952
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: Some of them are marvelous. I've seen marvelous German at

953
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: wire dockstions and German wire reporters. Excuse me the German

954
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: version of this, which is the draft hor but so

955
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: many of them they since they've been bad primarily for

956
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 1: bird hunting. They'll be high headed and birdie great for

957
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: wind setting, but they will get the nose down to

958
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: work all cold lines. Some do, and I've seen this

959
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 1: dogs that were great bird uh finders wind setting fifty

960
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 1: six yards and could work a cold line at the

961
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: same time, But that's not always the case. M What

962
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: what do you think about all this, Dan, as far

963
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: as the dogs are concerned, I my question is is

964
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 1: going back to the actual tracking itself And I hate

965
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,040
Speaker 1: to go off topic here, but you mentioned some and

966
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: about bumping a deer. You know you don't, it's sometimes

967
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: it's it's gonna be hard, you really don't. You can't

968
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: tell if a deer is dead or not unless you're

969
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: looking at it. So, um, if if somebody does dump

970
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: a bump a deer is there, I mean, is it

971
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 1: a lost cause that that deer has gone forever or

972
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: is there still a chance that you can recover it

973
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 1: from where you bumped it. Yeah. Usually if you get

974
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: really really close to the bedded wounded deer before he

975
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: jumps up and takes off, uh, he is not going

976
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: to go very far before he beds again. And uh,

977
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 1: you know, uh, you may be able to get it.

978
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: I found usually if you get close to a deer,

979
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: you jump him once he goes out two hundred yards

980
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: your beds again. Uh, and then uh, the second time

981
00:59:56,440 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: you jump him, he goes a hundred yard and then

982
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 1: he's finished. That's a scenario. And you know, it depends

983
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: on the the cover that you're working in, how much

984
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: blood the deer leaves going out of the blood and bed,

985
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: and how far ahead you can see him go. But

986
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 1: when I a deer takes off. Really, when he's not

987
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: even in sight and you just find his bed with

988
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 1: a little bit of blood in it, that's not a

989
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 1: very good opportunity to catch up to that deer without

990
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: a dragon dog. So in that case, when you do

991
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: bump that deer and going back to the wait or

992
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: don't wait, um, regardless of how long you wait in

993
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 1: the front end, now you've bumped a deer. I think

994
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 1: most of us usually when we bump a deer, we think, oh, shoot,

995
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: we just bumped that deer. We better wait and then

996
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:52,959
Speaker 1: we go home, or we go back to the truck

997
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: and wait a couple of hours and then try again.

998
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the most common response. But in

999
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: that situation you bump the deer, are you are you

1000
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: going to keep pushing it usually? Or how do you

1001
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: how do you think about that circumstance. Well, you know,

1002
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: by the time you've gotten to the point where you've

1003
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: bumped the deer, you probably know how it's wounded, and uh,

1004
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: if it's wounded in the the guts, or it's given

1005
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 1: evidence of being a very weak, follow it up. Otherwise

1006
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 1: back off. You've always got to think of this problem

1007
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: of the coyotes. You know, it's it's never simple. You know,

1008
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: it would be nice if you could write a little

1009
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: manual for hounters and five pages of how to find

1010
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 1: a wounded deer, But damn, and I've learned that my

1011
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 1: dogs are taught me that it's a lot more complicated

1012
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: than that. Yeah, I wish it was that easy, that

1013
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: it could be. Summing up, that's what I try to

1014
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 1: deal with in my book dead On that's written for

1015
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 1: hunters who don't have access to a dog. What they

1016
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: can they do to handle and track a deer hit

1017
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 1: in different places? So, is is there anything we haven't

1018
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 1: touched on on that specific topic that if I don't

1019
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: have a dog. Is there any other big lessons that

1020
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: you've learned that we haven't covered? Well, you know, we

1021
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: just talked about both money. Is that you're a great

1022
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: point the focus or do you want to expand it

1023
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 1: the gun on it? No, we definitely do want to

1024
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 1: talk about the firearms side too. How does that change things? Okay, Well,

1025
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: I think there's one important thing that we haven't mentioned,

1026
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 1: and I see this is an honor mistake that's made

1027
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: time and time again when we get coals on it

1028
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 1: on a high back shot with a shotgun slug or

1029
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 1: a rifle bullet. If the deer goes down immediately and

1030
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: stays down, well you're gonna get that deer. But quite

1031
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 1: often that bullet has it's hit one of the prongest,

1032
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: finest processes coming up off the vertebrae, or there's been

1033
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: a shock to the final chord within the backbone. The

1034
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 1: deer goes down, and if it gets up again and

1035
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 1: takes off, it's gone. We can't catch up with him

1036
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 1: on track and off. And so many times hunters they're

1037
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: so sure that that deer went was fatally wounded because

1038
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: it went down instantly. Well, if it stays down, that's

1039
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 1: the case. But if it gets up again, it's gone.

1040
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 1: And you know, I had hunters say, well I hit

1041
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: him good out of two yards and he went right down.

1042
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: I knew I had him, so I went up to

1043
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: the the house to get my a TV and have

1044
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 1: a cup of coffee. And then when I went down there,

1045
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: he wasn't there anymore. Come find him. And uh, you know,

1046
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: I've learned not to take those calls because it's just

1047
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. If the deer shows any signs of

1048
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 1: getting ready to get up again, you put another shot

1049
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 1: in him. I think that's the most common error I

1050
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 1: see gun unters make. All right, now, before we move

1051
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 1: on to my next question for John, we need to

1052
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: pause briefly for word from the sponsors of this episode

1053
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 1: of the podcast Carbon express Arrows. And when it comes

1054
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 1: to hunting arrows, I think one of the greatest challenges

1055
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 1: that the average bow hunter has is trying to wade

1056
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 1: through all the different options available and figure out exactly

1057
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: what kind of arrow and set up is best for

1058
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: his or her hunting application. So with us today is

1059
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 1: Carbon Expresses Alex Tate to help us understand exactly how

1060
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: to pick the right arrow for your situation. So, so

1061
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 1: the two main groups of hunters, and if you don't

1062
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: agree with this, and let me know, but in our

1063
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 1: heads here, UM, it's gonna be white tail specifically, you

1064
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: know that's number one and anywhere UM. And then two

1065
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:02,479
Speaker 1: is going to be out west elk hunting or out

1066
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: west um you'll deer hunting. And that's all kind of

1067
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 1: the same little bit bigger size animals, UM, a little

1068
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: bit longer yardage, is a lot less woods. So the

1069
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 1: differences between those two and in the difference between your

1070
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: arrow selection UM. For a white tail hunt, I would

1071
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 1: always recommend um a heavy arrow specifically because in most

1072
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 1: white tail situations and habitats you're gonna get a thirty

1073
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 1: yard shot or less, so so speed really does not matter. UM.

1074
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 1: On top of that, today's bows are so efficient that

1075
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: that you really want weight these days in in my

1076
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 1: opinion and in a lot of people's opinions, especially at

1077
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 1: this company, So that would be where I pushed people

1078
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: for white tails. So like our reds our um Our

1079
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 1: Mayhem stuff like that, that's very very heavy pile drivers

1080
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 1: for the people who aren't ever going to see over

1081
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 1: a thirty yard shot. A pile driver is just a

1082
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: phenomenal row because it's extremely heavy and you don't need

1083
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: anything else. You're shooting thirty yards max and you're wanting

1084
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 1: to punch through that animal as fast and efficiently as possible.

1085
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: But when you go out west, um you're dealing with

1086
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 1: seventy yard jats. You're dealing with no trees, and with

1087
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 1: no trees, UM comes a lot of wind, so you

1088
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: have to start um factoring in that as well, and

1089
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 1: with that becomes you're gonna be looking for like a

1090
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 1: smaller diameter, so like our pile driver pass through extreme um.

1091
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: It's a great option. Two oh three inner diameter, extremely heavy,

1092
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: so it helps cut through that wind. A light arrow

1093
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 1: that is small diameter will only do so much for

1094
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 1: you because it's still light, it's going to drift um.

1095
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 1: So those would be my two main differences between those.

1096
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 1: And then also going out west on those longer shots,

1097
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: the more foc you can get, the better, So a

1098
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 1: wait forward arrow or a M triple spined arrow with

1099
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: or grains up front can really pay David when you

1100
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 1: start getting past forty fifty yards. So there you go,

1101
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: And if you'd like to learn more about any of

1102
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:10,080
Speaker 1: the arrows that Alex mentioned, you can visit carbon Express

1103
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: Arrows dot com. And now back to the show. Are

1104
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 1: there any other differences from the other tracking kind of

1105
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,680
Speaker 1: best practices we talked about or the times to wait

1106
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: you know that we talked about when it came to

1107
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 1: bow hunting. Is there any other differences when it comes

1108
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 1: to using a firearm? Do you wait less or longer

1109
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 1: after gunshot? At all? I don't think there are any

1110
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 1: clearer differences. You know, the wound that's made is different.

1111
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: A h an arrow cut in a specific area if

1112
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 1: it's a vein or whatever. You know the results are

1113
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 1: going to occur right away. With a rifle bullet, you

1114
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 1: have shock around the passage of the board, you have

1115
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 1: tissue damage around the passage of the bullet. Uh, and

1116
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: uh you're dealing with a damage zone that's actually broader.

1117
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 1: Uh then uh when you shoot with broadhead. Another thing

1118
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 1: I'll throw in here you may want to edit this

1119
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 1: out is we get a lot of calls from people

1120
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 1: that are using mechanical broadheads. And I know, when the

1121
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 1: mechanical broadheaded works, uh, it's awesome, but there are so

1122
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 1: many cases where they give inadequate penetration. Maybe they hit

1123
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 1: a rib. I think in a lot of times hunters

1124
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: will be shooting with a mechanical I won't mention brand names,

1125
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:47,960
Speaker 1: but they're attempted to use a light arrow and a

1126
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: light uh pondage bowl. And you know they get when

1127
01:08:54,360 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 1: they're shooting tigrets, they get beautiful flat trajectories, but they

1128
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:05,839
Speaker 1: don't have enough energy in that arrow when it strikes

1129
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:09,240
Speaker 1: a deer to get all the way through. Sometimes you

1130
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: don't get any exit wound, but you've still got a

1131
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 1: killing wound. But a lot of times. You know, it's

1132
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 1: four interance penetration almost anybody that tracts a lot because

1133
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 1: I would never use a mechanical. But you know, the

1134
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 1: general hunting public doesn't see it the same way. You know,

1135
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: we just see all the cases where the mechanical doesn't work.

1136
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 1: That's good. When you say doesn't work, I'm a kind

1137
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:42,680
Speaker 1: of a gear nut. What what do you mean by

1138
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:45,719
Speaker 1: doesn't work? You mean it's not opening like it's supposed

1139
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 1: to open, or the broadhead itself is damaged and it's

1140
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 1: not living up to its potential. It loses uh, its energy,

1141
01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:02,679
Speaker 1: it's kinetic energy. Uh. You know there's more resistance when

1142
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:06,439
Speaker 1: those blades open, particularly if they hit a river or

1143
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: something like that, and uh, so you don't get the penetration.

1144
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 1: Then when the arrow stops, ah, the blades float. They

1145
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:21,679
Speaker 1: don't keep on cutting as they would in a standard broadhead,

1146
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 1: where you know, with a muscle movement of the animal

1147
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:31,680
Speaker 1: that would continue continue cutting back and forth. So I

1148
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 1: think this is an inadequate penetration. I don't see too

1149
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 1: many cases where they don't open. But I think if

1150
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 1: you're going to use a mechanical, you want to use

1151
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: a high poundage bow uh, and heavier arrows, you know,

1152
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:55,760
Speaker 1: not what you would use in a tournament. That that

1153
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 1: brings up another thing too. I think the three D

1154
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 1: tournaments show the lethal kill zone the deer target in

1155
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:10,360
Speaker 1: a much too optimistic way. Uh you know it. Uh.

1156
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:13,679
Speaker 1: You make it look like if you hit the deer

1157
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:17,720
Speaker 1: four inches below the top line, that's going to kill

1158
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 1: him good. And the real kill zone for a deer,

1159
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:26,759
Speaker 1: you know, heart and lungs is going to be lower

1160
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 1: than anything you see with the current three D tournament targets.

1161
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:38,320
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, I'm all for cultivating, uh,

1162
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:42,040
Speaker 1: the art of shooting accurately, but I think in this respect,

1163
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:48,720
Speaker 1: the competition leads to an unrealistic viewpoint of what the

1164
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:53,280
Speaker 1: kill zone is in a real live deer. That's good

1165
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 1: to know. So it sounds like it's better to air

1166
01:11:56,920 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 1: a little bit low than a little bit high typically also,

1167
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 1: I think so, and this is especially true with black bear.

1168
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 1: Now this year in the Northeast, we've got a heavy

1169
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:16,919
Speaker 1: black bear kill and most of the time, well the hunters,

1170
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,679
Speaker 1: you know, they'll show in the middle of the chest

1171
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 1: and they're a little bit high and they're just going

1172
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 1: through a muscle. They're not getting into the very low

1173
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:35,360
Speaker 1: hard lung area of black Bear. Interesting. I don't know, Dan,

1174
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:39,320
Speaker 1: do you have any other questions on this topic? No,

1175
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 1: not really. I think he's provided us with a lot

1176
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:45,839
Speaker 1: of information to theay, Yeah, this is this has been interesting,

1177
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:48,679
Speaker 1: especially some of the insights. You know, they go counter

1178
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 1: to some of the generally held knowledge that's kind of

1179
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 1: anecdotally been passed down for decades. Um, that's that's particularly interesting.

1180
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 1: I think you know, Baked take go home, take home

1181
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 1: message for me is to not be afraid to go

1182
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 1: after these deer that we know for sure have been hit. Well,

1183
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:09,840
Speaker 1: I think that makes sense to go after them, but

1184
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:13,800
Speaker 1: then also to to kind of not be afraid to

1185
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 1: hold off when it's a little bit questionable in the

1186
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 1: right situations. Um, do you have any final thoughts that

1187
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: you want to leave or any other big mistakes? John

1188
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: that you think that most people are making the situation

1189
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 1: that we still need to cover, well, I think that

1190
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 1: a lot of hunters still have no adjust to this

1191
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:35,479
Speaker 1: new age of the cat out and uh, what was

1192
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 1: good advice for Grandpa is not good advice anymore. So

1193
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:47,320
Speaker 1: that's one thing I think for the whole wounded dear

1194
01:13:47,479 --> 01:13:51,600
Speaker 1: question you can make just a big generalization about the

1195
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: whole thing. You've got to break it down into the

1196
01:13:56,640 --> 01:14:01,439
Speaker 1: various situations depending on the anatomy is a dear and

1197
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:05,160
Speaker 1: it pays to look at the diagram of deer anatomy

1198
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:11,679
Speaker 1: so that you can recognize situations when they arrive. Yeah, definitely,

1199
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:14,800
Speaker 1: So I guess I get speaking of that, then what

1200
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:19,919
Speaker 1: resources would you recommend to better understand this type of scenario?

1201
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: And I'd love to hear about your books or any

1202
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 1: other places people can go online to learn more about

1203
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 1: your resources or anything else you recommend. Well, Uh, I

1204
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:36,919
Speaker 1: think my book for hunters that aren't working with dogs,

1205
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:41,719
Speaker 1: dead On, is probably the most up to date because

1206
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 1: the other UH writers have not had this experience of

1207
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:52,200
Speaker 1: working with dogs that tell us what dear actually do.

1208
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 1: So that book dead On, which we sell off our

1209
01:14:56,680 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 1: website under track dot com, UH, is I think useful.

1210
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: There's a lot of detail. It's a shorter book, you know,

1211
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: it's I think it's ninety pages. But I want to

1212
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:14,520
Speaker 1: see this knowledge that the dogs have given us more widespread,

1213
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:17,720
Speaker 1: and I'm sure other people are going to pick it

1214
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 1: up and develop it, but right now, I don't think

1215
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 1: that's there, there's enough that's been published or videos who

1216
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 1: have been published. There's a lot to be done here

1217
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:35,880
Speaker 1: and it will be other people who do it. I'm

1218
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:40,800
Speaker 1: actually now I'm eighty one for my tracking day Days

1219
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 1: in the Woods ended when I was eighty, But I

1220
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:48,840
Speaker 1: want other people to pick this up and write more.

1221
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:54,839
Speaker 1: And what you're doing on this program here of publicizing uh,

1222
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,840
Speaker 1: this new knowledge, I think is tremendously valuable. Well, hey,

1223
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 1: we we appreciate you sharing that expertise and experience. John,

1224
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 1: And that website believe said was born to track dot com.

1225
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yeah, with their hyphens between born and

1226
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:16,040
Speaker 1: born hyphen t o hyphen t r a c k

1227
01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 1: dot com and you see that. You can see reviews

1228
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 1: about it. The The Tracking Dog Book has sold actually

1229
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 1: more than dead On. But I think that dead On

1230
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:32,800
Speaker 1: has a lot of potential for people who don't want

1231
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:36,880
Speaker 1: to get involved in tracking dogs. And that's not for everybody.

1232
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:41,680
Speaker 1: Tracking dogs are good for the person who got the

1233
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 1: right time and temperament for doing it, but it's not

1234
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:50,120
Speaker 1: that's not going to appeal to everybody. Yeah, and there's

1235
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,439
Speaker 1: no point in having a tracking dog if he's not

1236
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 1: well trained and the experience you just can't take your

1237
01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 1: TV watching pooch off the couch, and I think you're

1238
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 1: going to do very much with him. Yeah, I wish,

1239
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: I wish it was that easy. Well, John will make

1240
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:12,400
Speaker 1: sure to link to that website, so if anybody is

1241
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:14,920
Speaker 1: interested in write, reading either one of those books, are

1242
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 1: checking out anything else about what John has been doing,

1243
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 1: will make sure to have a link. Maya, my number

1244
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 1: is in there. And I liked to talk to people

1245
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:31,120
Speaker 1: about questions I may have or give them more advice.

1246
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:34,519
Speaker 1: I spend my my other life as a teacher, so

1247
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:41,080
Speaker 1: that's communicating information is something I really like to do. Well.

1248
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 1: I definitely think you've done that today. John, You've helped

1249
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people out us included, So thank you

1250
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:50,120
Speaker 1: so much for your time. We really appreciate it. Okay, well,

1251
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 1: I certainly enjoyed it too. Thank you for the opportunity,

1252
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:58,680
Speaker 1: of course, and there you have it. A few quick

1253
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: updates before we go, though, as always, a big thank

1254
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 1: you to our partners who helped make this podcast possible.

1255
01:18:05,360 --> 01:18:09,040
Speaker 1: So thanks to Sick of Gear, Redneck Blinds, Hunt Ra Maps,

1256
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:13,679
Speaker 1: Yettie Cooler's Osonics, Carbon Express, Maven Optics, and the White

1257
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:17,040
Speaker 1: Tail Institute of North America. And thank you to all

1258
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:19,280
Speaker 1: of you who have gone out and supported these companies

1259
01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:21,720
Speaker 1: or thank them for their work with Weird Hunt. You know,

1260
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,040
Speaker 1: I'm getting more and more messages about this kind of

1261
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 1: thing happening, and it's really an unbelievable help for this

1262
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 1: podcast and for the Wird Hunt website. You know, when

1263
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 1: our partners here about the impact that this show and

1264
01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 1: Weird Hunt is having, it's a huge eye opener for them,

1265
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing is what it's going to

1266
01:18:37,439 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 1: take to keep this show going. So just just huge

1267
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 1: thanks for that. Also, thank you, of course for tuning

1268
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 1: in today for hearing us out talking about our own hunts,

1269
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 1: and for joining us to hear what John had to

1270
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 1: share as well. I hope you learned a thing or

1271
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 1: two that's going to help you on your next track job,

1272
01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 1: and of course I hope you also get an opportunity

1273
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:57,960
Speaker 1: to enjoy a track job soon. So until next time,

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01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 1: I hope you'll stay Wired to Hunt.