WEBVTT - Real Talk About Disabilities and Work 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.760 A few weeks ago, we did an episode on diversity 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.280 at work. In that episode, we asked listeners to email 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:08.440 us or tweet at us with recommendations on how we 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.760 could make our show more diverse. A listener tweeted at 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.800 us about an element of diversity we actually hadn't even 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:29.240 been thinking about. This is game plan. Hi, I'm Francesco 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.000 Levi and I'm right back at Greenfield and today we're 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.760 talking about how the workplace doesn't always work for people 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:39.199 with disabilities. So the listener that tweeted at us that 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.320 I mentioned at the top of the show is Gettey 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.440 and Goldberg, and he's actually going to be our guest leader, 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.040 but he basically reached out to remind us that when 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.240 we're talking about diversity, we have to be thinking about 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.520 disability as well. Yeah. I didn't even consider that when 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.760 we are doing our diversity episode, to be completely honest, um, 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:58.600 So it was good to have giddy and check us 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.360 on that and that when started doing research for this, 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.920 we discover that there's a lot to unpack. Yeah, so 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.000 it's a huge topic and borderline overwhelming, but we're going 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:09.880 to try and get out a few of the challenges 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.040 for people with disabilities when it comes to the workplace, 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.280 and you have some stats for us, right, I got 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.160 stat I love stats. Yeah, Um, these are not super 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:23.000 happy stats. Um. There's something called the employment gap that's 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.039 a big part of the problem. So this is the 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.280 rate of employment for people with disabilities compared to the 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:32.400 rate of employment for the population at large. And that 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.800 gap is way bigger in the US than in most 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:40.119 other countries. It's around So these are people who want 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.840 to be working but can't find These aren't people who 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:47.480 are being shut out of the workforce by their disability necessarily. 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:51.320 It's just that they're not finding work at the same rate. Um. 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:53.600 And even when they do find work, they're not getting 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.560 paid the same There's a wage gap as well. Workers 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.320 with disabilities make sixty cents on the dollar. So to 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.280 put that in text of other wage gaps, the gender 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:04.520 wage gap is eight cents on the dollar. So that 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.360 is really bad. And we're talking about people who are 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:11.040 equally qualified. So, for example, a disabled worker with a 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:15.600 bachelor's degree earns almost thirteen thousand dollars less a year 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:21.000 than a non disabled worker with a bachelor's degree. That's ridiculous. Yeah. 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.360 So when I think about disability in the workplace. The 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:27.799 first thing that comes to mind is Americans with Disabilities Act, Right. 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.520 The a d A is the broad umbrella solution to 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.600 some of these problems. So um it was made law 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.919 in and it basically prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability. 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.160 So the a DA is the reason why you see 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:46.079 wheelchair ramps and accessible bathrooms. But it doesn't necessarily go 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:49.560 far enough. So there are some small businesses that are 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.920 exempt from a d A protections. And you can also 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.919 opt out of the d A if providing a certain accommodation, 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.160 say an interpreter for a deaf job applicant, would cause 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.560 an undo hardship, so would basically cost you too much money, 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:05.800 and that might be the case for a lot of 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.720 small businesses. And then that's just what happens when you're 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:11.959 at work, But what about all the little things that 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:16.240 surrounding like getting to work or being working person. So 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.600 one thing I think about is commuting, And in New 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.640 York City, it's really hard to use a wheelchair on 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:27.360 the subway. Only subway stations are reelchair accessible, so you 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:30.840 have to just happen to live on a station that 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.160 is a real chair acceptable, accessible, and then happened to 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.440 be going to a job or a job interview or 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.200 a meeting for work. I mean, there's just so much 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.440 about it that seems very inaccessible. Yeah, it's not enough 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.120 for your office to have accommodations if none of the 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.320 other stops on the way to your office have the 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:50.440 accommodations that you need to do your job. Yeah, and 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.560 you can just see why it's harder for people who 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:54.360 have to deal with that to get jobs. And when 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:58.440 we're talking about disability, it also goes beyond accommodation. There's 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:02.240 obviously discrimination. And yeah, when I think of any wage 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:06.080 gap or underemployment, I always think of bias and discrimination. 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:09.280 And unfortunately, if you look different, or talk different, or 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.640 a walk different, they're probably going to be people who 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:14.000 judge you based on that. And we're not the best 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.479 people to speak to exactly what that feels like. But 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:18.840 our guest today is going to help us get into 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:26.160 some of those issues. Gideon Goldberg is a software engineer 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.599 at the Guardian in London. He also has cerebral palsy, 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.520 which affects his movement in a few ways, from walking 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:39.800 to write Welcome Gideon. Hello, So we would love to 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.720 hear just for starters, why you decided to reach out 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.000 to us disabilities Often to think people miss when they 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:49.680 think about diversity, so they might think about gender, and 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.520 they might think about race, and then it's like oh 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.279 oh and maybe by the way, disability. But then it's 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:56.920 like what do we do? It's so hard, or that 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.640 people don't know where to where to start. Yeah, I 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.920 definitely only did not, like admittedly think about that at 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:04.919 all when we were making the episodes. We're really happy 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.000 that you did reach out to us, and like you said, 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:09.919 we don't even know how to wrap our heads around it. 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.880 So can you describe what you do and what accommodations 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:18.520 you use every day to make your work possible? Right? 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.760 So I'm a software engineer, so that's not very glamorous. 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:23.200 I mean I just sit in front of a desk 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:25.719 all day and use a computer and sometimes I have 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:30.880 a meeting. Um sounds like a job. And so there's 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.800 only a few sort of small I guess accommodations that 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.240 I have. I have a special chair which is called 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.279 like a subtle chair, so it makes my back very 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.479 straight to help with my posture. And I have a 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:47.040 special like hydraulic adjustable desk that I can push up 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.159 and down and make sure that like it's kind of 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:55.080 all adjusted correctly. Um. So those are kind of the 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:59.640 main things, like yes, and what are some ways that 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.359 you approach work differently that an undisabled person might not 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:10.240 think about? Right, So sometimes I'll do things quietly to 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:12.720 like deal with things that my my coworkers might never 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.560 know about. So we have like a quiet room um 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:19.720 at the Guardian, which people use for prayer and all 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:23.440 sorts of things. But sometimes, like so the phrase I 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.920 guess it is like getting tight with with the disability. 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:27.800 I have to your muscles all kind of tighten up. 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.640 And sometimes I'll go and lock myself in there and 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.279 like do some stretches and come out. So I guess, 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:35.200 you know, if people didn't know, they wouldn't think anything 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.559 of it, or they thought I'm doing my prayers or whatever. 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.800 But like that's something I do that I sort of 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.160 managed to day today that people, I guess don't think about. 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.640 That's kind of interesting. It reminds me. I mean it's 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:47.720 not the same, but kind of like the same disruption. 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.039 And you're in Francesca's day where she has to go 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.799 and pump I should start bringing up on the show. Yeah, 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:57.920 but it is. It's interesting that, like in the there's 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:03.360 a big trend toward open offices, and people often call out, 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.920 like what about like dating women, But there are all 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:09.080 these other examples of times when you might need a 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:11.760 little bit of privacy that people don't. And I'm the same, 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.160 Like I get a special exemption from the hot desking 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.920 rule because I'm a special snowflake. But it's like one one, 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.240 one thing doesn't work for everyone, right, So can you 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:22.760 talk about that a little bit more like how it 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.080 had work for you? Well, I guess because my desk 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.480 is like high adjustable, and if I have a special chair, 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.080 so if I just rocked up in any different desk 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.720 every different day of the week, then it's just not 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:35.760 going to be like adjusted. Like I'm fine to like 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:37.480 go to a meeting, but I wouldn't want to spend 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.400 all day like in the wrong position. And I like, 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:42.520 I don't think it's a big deal. So when I 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:44.960 move teams, what they'll do is they'll get workplace to 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.120 like come and move my desk to the new locations. 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.000 So I'm still co located with my team, but I'm 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.720 not just in a different seat every day. I think 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:57.240 because of um ramps and other accommodations that are made 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.880 in officers. That's probably what most workers are familiar with 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.920 when it comes to dealing with something like cerebral palsy 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.880 or another disability in the office. But are there other 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.440 ways that you have to think about your life differently, 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.360 your work life differently that are less vilsible, like maybe 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:17.840 when you're interviewing for a job, for example. Yeah, so, 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.760 so I guess there's some interesting things. So one of 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.840 the one of the sort of interesting things with my 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:27.560 disability is it affects my like spatial awareness and my 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.800 like navigation skills. So I just don't really have a 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.280 good sense of direction, so I would come out the 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.400 tube station just walk off in the not wrong direction 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.760 and not realize. Um. So yeah, technology has helped a 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:41.560 lot with that, because there's this thing called Google Maps 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.120 now and it tells you even which way you're facing, 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.320 which is a good innovation because I used to print 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:48.600 out maps and then not really they didn't help that much. 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:52.520 So I orientate a lot by landmarks, which is a 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:54.520 kind of trick that I have because I'm like, oh, 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:56.600 I can see the Starbucks, right, So I know it's 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.280 like left there, but the kind of it's an it's 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:03.480 an interesting thing again is kind of hidden. Um. So, oh, 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.560 you asked me a bit about when you might be 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.559 applying or starting for a job, right or going for 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.400 an interview. Um. So I guess generally when you do 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:16.200 a job application, they have like a special box that says, 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.839 is there any any special needs you want to tell 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.320 us about? Um? And I'll generally tick the box and 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:26.000 then some HR person will reply and they'll say, oh, 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.400 is there anything we can do? And I'm lucky I 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:30.680 don't have a lot of special needs. I guess one 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.480 thing is because I have quite rubbish hand eye coordination. 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:35.720 So if it's like we want to do a whiteboard 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:37.640 test and lock you in a room and write this 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.960 code on the wall, um, it would just be quite illegible. 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:43.120 So I'll generally ask like, can I do it look 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.720 on a computer? Or is there some other way I 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.760 could do it? So it's not necessarily like big adjustments, 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.360 but it's small things, you know, that will help me 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:55.400 get through the process. Are you worried that that has ever, um, 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:59.079 hindered your ability to get a job? Yeah? So it's 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.240 really hard to note because when you apply, it's this 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:03.880 black box. So if they didn't applied, you don't you 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:08.640 don't know why. Um, but like I'm definitely a kind 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.719 of disclosure, right, Like I'll always say it because it's 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:13.640 also like a sniff test, like if they if I 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:15.400 say it and then they don't want to talk to me, 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.679 I probably don't want to work for them either. So 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.080 it's one way I I snuff things out. I mean. 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.000 Another thing is like, um, so both so I work 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.400 at the Guardian now and prior to that, I worked 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:32.120 at the BBC, and both of them have some form 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.079 of I guess it's called a guaranteed interview scheme. So 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:36.640 what it means is like, if you meet all the 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.280 criteria for the role, you'll definitely at least get an interview. 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:41.880 And that's trying to bridge that gap about like oh 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:43.839 you tick the box so you've scared them away. It's 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.360 like it means you at least get looking. Then it 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.160 encourages you to disclose, right because if you're like, I 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:50.960 don't want to tell them this thing, and then they 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.440 can't re accommodate you and you mess up that way, 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.040 So it's I think a good way of making you 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.640 like feel safe to disclose something and still hopefully carry 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:05.319 on through the process. So looking a little bit past accommodating. Um, 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.000 some of some of the differences that disabled people have. 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.520 What are some experiences you've had with just straight up 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.160 discrimination or feelings of bias. Oh, I mean I'm maybe 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.440 like like I work at a very liberal paper, so 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.960 everyone's really lovely. If anything, they're like almost too politically correct, 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.840 Like they just don't there to ask anything, man, so 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.400 I have to bring it up. So it's like, um, 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:32.160 it's it's almost like they're trying too hard generally, Like 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.319 I guess, I mean more negatives whence you get out 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.080 of work. So like drunk people basically people say really 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.560 stupid stuff. Or I've had like when I went to 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:45.640 a club night and then i'd shown my ticket to 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:47.400 someone and I got to the door and the bounce 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.360 was like, oh, you can't come in, and I was 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.720 like what and he said, oh, you're drunk, And I 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:55.640 was like what. And then I put on my poshest 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.360 voice and I was like, I am not at all inebriated, 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:00.280 and I am quite capable of it a thing this 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:04.120 establishment And he was like, oh sorry, but like I 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.360 think day to day that's that's the thing, as long 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.160 as you kind of set things up right not I 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.320 don't think a big deal. The things that you described, 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.080 like using a computer instead of a white board or 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.160 not having to heart TSK like these are such simple, 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.320 easy accommodations to make, but if you haven't come out 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.440 and talked about them, it seems like like somebody could 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.760 assume that because you're handwriting is not that great on 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:31.840 the white board, that you're going to be less good 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:33.200 at your job. And so that can be like a 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.360 subtle way that that bias influences the you know, you're 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.480 just your day to day at work. It seems like 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.480 you probably have to do a lot of educating people. Yeah, 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:45.560 I'm really in favor of having a conversation up front. 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.520 So the wording in UK is like reasonable adjustments that 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.560 the employers expected to make. But the way I tend 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.079 to approach it is like when you have that conversation, 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.160 it's like, hey, we we've decided to offer you the job, 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.000 and I'll I'll sort of say, so that's great. Here 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.160 is the thing. We have to have a meeting and 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.000 um and just talk it through and I think as 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.200 long as you make whatever kind of needs you have 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.600 clear upfront, it's really not a thing. What you what 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:13.520 you don't want is the opposite is like three months 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:15.760 in and something weird happened, as they say, why did 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:17.840 you go off to that room? And you have to 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.520 explain it and it's really awkward. So I'm all for 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.119 like bringing it up up front. Was there some experience 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.280 that you had that me and you realize that you 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.679 wanted to be someone who just talked about these things 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:32.480 up front? Yeah? Sure? So I worked before this job, 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:37.120 I worked at the BBC on this thing's BBC magazine 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.200 site called Ouch and that was all about like it's 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:44.520 like disability life and being outspoken and talking about your experiences. Um. 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:46.559 And that was maybe an extreme example because it was 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.320 like an all disabled team, so it was very like 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.480 embsting us. And that's how it is. I guess it's 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:53.920 very different from everyone's experiences, but you kind of you 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:55.800 wouldn't want to work on that site unless you were 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.200 happy talking about your your disability experience, which not everyone 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.400 is right. Some people they don't want it to be 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:03.679 a thing. They they'd rather not talk about it and 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:05.319 they definitely don't want it to be the thing that 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.800 defines them. You know, was that sort of refreshing like 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.560 you didn't have that that people trying too hard political 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.520 correctness because everybody was just sort of out and open 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.000 and comfortable talking about this stuff. Oh yeah, it's it's 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.360 such a difference, and it's you know, it's that that 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.280 feeling when you're with people that you feel comfortable with 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.600 and you can just shoot the breeze. Well, there's a 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.560 program in the UK called Access Is it called Access 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:32.480 to Work? Right? Um? Can you just explain a little 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.040 bit what that isn't how that's helped you? Sure. So 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.360 that's the scheme and it's run by the UK government. 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.720 So when you when you get offered a job, you 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:43.720 can call a hotline say hey, I've been offered a 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.120 job and they'll come and assess you and you can 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.440 describe what additional needs you might have and that that 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.200 could be anything. So for me, it's like I need 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.160 a special chair, but it could be like I need 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.320 a sign language interpreter from my meeting, or I need 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.520 a taxi to get to this office. Um. And the 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.280 idea is that the government will cover all those extra costs. 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.800 So that it's completely cost neutral for the employer, so 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:06.440 they shouldn't have to face that decision of like, oh, 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.320 we'd really like to employ you, but it's gonna just 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.120 be too expensive. Right. Also, does having it through a 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.720 third party make it a little bit of less of 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.040 an uncomfortable conversation. Oh yeah, you don't even need to 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.200 have the conversation. So the thing is like they'll have 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.400 like an independent assessor who comes out and meets you 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.600 and writes a report and then basically the employer has 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.520 to sort of implement it and the cost of covered. 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:30.480 So you have that kind of third party who's not 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:32.480 like you don't have to go to your line manager 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.040 and say, have this really awkward conversation about so you 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:36.480 know that you offer me this job, it's going to 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:40.120 be really expensive for you. What would be some things 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.520 that it sounds like you're really gregarious and outgoing and 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.920 happy talking to people and kind of giving letting them 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:49.600 know what's up about your disability. But what would what 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:54.760 would be some advice um for non disabled people who 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.200 want to be more accommodating or more understanding in the 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:02.200 office around their disabled colleagues who might not want to 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.720 spend all this time educating them, right, so I think 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.720 it's really not rocket science. Just definitely talk to them 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.240 like you to talk to anyone else. So don't don't 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:14.520 patronize them and treat them like they're five years old. 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:16.880 Or if they have like a p A or an 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.160 interpreter or someone working with them, don't talk to that person. 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.480 Talk to them directly, right, because they're quite capable of 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.520 telling you what they what they need, right. And it 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.560 sounds like also maybe just don't make assumptions you were 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.560 describing somebody, assuming you were drunk or you know, somebody 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.880 might think that there's a reason besides your disability that 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.680 you're doing something differently, and it's just ask, Yeah, definitely 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:44.720 ask upfront. So there was an interesting case that there's 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.760 someone I know who's death blind and she'll often go 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.000 to competence and they're like, hey, we got you, we 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.040 got you an interpreter, everything's great. And actually she doesn't 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:55.680 read sign language right like she uses hearing aids and 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:57.760 her needs are completely different. But like, if they just 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.160 asked up front, it wouldn't have been a thing. Do 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.720 you ever get frustrated? Do you mean, like with my 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.359 how people treat me it just sounds so like, yeah, 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:12.280 people always say I'm very enthusiastic personality, so maybe that 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.520 comes across true. I have you know, I have down 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:18.080 times as well, but maybe not so much in the office. 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.000 And I you know, I try not to swear people. 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.439 Sometimes I swear at the compiler because the software doesn't work, 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.359 but I tried to be angry at people. So I 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.320 guess just to wrap up, what are some of the 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.439 little things? Are the big things that you just wish 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.760 undisabled people would take the time to think about, so 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.239 definitely in terms of things that employers could do. Like 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:38.639 I was asking around to my disabled friends before I 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.159 came on here, like what should I what should I 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:41.800 tell them? What are the top tips? And the big 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.320 thing that came up was flexible working. It's huge, right, 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.640 so you might be someone. Um, so my brother recently 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.520 employed developer and like he had really bad applicants and 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.200 this guy was by far the best. And then he said, oh, 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:57.760 by the way, you know, I need to work from 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.680 home because I have this like health ambition and it's 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:02.879 it wasn't something my brother had thought about, but he 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.920 was fine with it and it's worked out like really well. 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.000 But sometimes you have to be a bit accommodating in 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.439 terms of allowing that. So things like allowing people to 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.120 work part time or allowing people to work from home 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:17.200 or work unusual hours that might suit there their needs 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:22.080 is a really great thing you can do. Um. I mean, 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.040 another thing bigger employers have started doing is like disability 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.720 staff forums. So you might have that. You might have 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.240 thought about that for say, people of a certain gender 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.280 or LGBTQ people, but you could also do that for 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.639 disabled people. And like, not everyone's into that, but for 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:39.680 the people who are, it gives them like a place 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:44.360 to network and meet each other and share experiences. Um. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.359 And yeah, like I said earlier, having like a quiet 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.800 space or somewhere where people can go that's not part 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.920 of the open plan environment is useful for lots of reasons, 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.080 not just for disabled people, but it helps them out 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:57.840 as well. Thank you so much for coming out and 0:18:57.880 --> 0:18:59.880 talking to us. Thanks. It's my pleasure. I'm a big 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:15.600 into the show. It's incredible to me how flexibility around 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.159 schedules is the answer to so many issues people have 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.560 with balancing their lives with work. Yeah. I mean we 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.200 just had a whole episode about this. Yeah, we talk 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.200 about it for working families, We talk about it for 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:29.639 just making life easier for people who are busy or 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.919 who have you know, long commuting schedules. And it also 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.480 turns out that it can be a big solution for 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:39.600 people with disabilities to enable them to have more flexible schedules. Yeah. 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:43.000 And it's like, so that is a very modern idea, right, 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.560 Like flexible schedules is a one way to modernize office, 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.680 but then the other ways that the offices have modernized instead, 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.240 it turns out can actually be harmful to some people. 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.080 I was really surprised by that. Um. So he mentioned 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.160 hot desking, which if people don't know, is a new fad, 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:02.040 especially in engineering to technology worlds, where you can come 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.240 in and set at any desk. Um And yeah, and 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.760 for somebody who needs some special accommodations, like it's a 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.840 problem and then they can't participate in this new thing. 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:14.000 I mean, Gideon was okay with that, but I was 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.440 like kind of annoyed on his behalf. And the open office, 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.240 which people have complained about for lots of different reasons, 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.760 but that it's just another thing that you don't think 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:26.520 about that can exclude people who need a private space 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:31.879 for accommodating their work. Gideon is someone who is clearly 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:33.920 very open just coming out and saying what he needs 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:38.520