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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 1: name is Noel. They call me Ben. We are joined

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Speaker 1: with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decade. Most importantly,

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Speaker 1: you are you, You are here, and that makes this

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. A bit of

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Speaker 1: a depressing episode, to be completely honest, they had a

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Speaker 1: little a little bit of a dark Night of the

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Speaker 1: Soul Doween some of this research. But on a positive note,

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Speaker 1: it reminded me of my college days, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask you guys, just generally speaking, did you have

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Speaker 1: a good time in college? No? No, I kind of

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Speaker 1: had like a really boring I stayed in my hometown

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Speaker 1: college experience, so I just sort of continued life as

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Speaker 1: I knew it in high school in many ways. And

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Speaker 1: then after college, I kind of had a college experience

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Speaker 1: when I wasn't actually in college, and I moved to Athens, Georgia.

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Speaker 1: A lot of my friends had gone to ug A.

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Speaker 1: I ended up going through a lot of like house

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Speaker 1: shows and house parties. But it was just after my

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Speaker 1: college experience. It was a little removed. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting, actually, I sort of like it. What about

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Speaker 1: you met I had a wonderful college experience, met my wife,

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Speaker 1: met my some of my closest friends, started a company,

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Speaker 1: got hired here. Yeah, all of that occurred while I

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Speaker 1: was in college. So believe for you man, that's right,

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Speaker 1: that's the actual college who was a little boring. You

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Speaker 1: know a lot of people end up saying something along

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Speaker 1: those lines. You will find and this may be your

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Speaker 1: experience as well, folks, You'll find that, um. Many people

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Speaker 1: see the uh financial or career benefits of college as

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Speaker 1: equal to, or in some cases less important than the

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Speaker 1: social benefits such as, you know, meeting your significant other,

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Speaker 1: making lifelong friends, um. And you know, the social aspects.

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Speaker 1: We are a very tribal species. The social aspects are

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Speaker 1: inherently tied up in any institution. One of the big

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Speaker 1: benefits of a fraternity is going to be I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a nicer word for nepotism, but that

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's what it is. It's a social network,

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Speaker 1: right right. So we hope that if you went to college,

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Speaker 1: or if you are in college or you're planning to

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Speaker 1: go to college, that you have a great time. We

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Speaker 1: also hope that you're very careful. Uh. For much of

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Speaker 1: recent US history, graduating college has been seen as one

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Speaker 1: of those key prerequisites to later success in adulthood. And

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Speaker 1: you'll read statistics that argue something like something along the

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Speaker 1: lines of a bachelor's degree is over the lifespan of

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Speaker 1: of the person who holds the degree, it's worth several

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Speaker 1: million dollars in terms of how it um how it

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Speaker 1: enhances their ability to earn money over time, overtime, overtime.

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Speaker 1: That's the that's that's the first asterisk here. Uh. But

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Speaker 1: while that's true, While it's true that the average lifetime

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Speaker 1: earnings of people with a degree has tended to be

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Speaker 1: about seventy higher than that of people with a high

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Speaker 1: school diploma or less, that doesn't tell the entire story. Sure,

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Speaker 1: there does appear to be a tangible financial benefit, but

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Speaker 1: that's at first blush, that's an a cursory glance. What

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Speaker 1: we also find is that we live in a society,

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Speaker 1: and this is something we talked about previously on our tour.

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Speaker 1: We live in a society where a lot of people

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Speaker 1: were convinced that to have any worth or value as

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Speaker 1: an into visual in this our current age, they had

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Speaker 1: to go to college, even if they got a degree

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Speaker 1: that they didn't really care about, even if they got

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Speaker 1: a degree that wasn't particularly applicable to their later interest

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Speaker 1: in life. They just had to jump through this social

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Speaker 1: hoop to be a person worth knowing or acknowledging as

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Speaker 1: a person. And that is fundamentally first disclaimer, I know

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Speaker 1: a monologue in you here, but that is fundamentally not true.

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Speaker 1: Trade jobs right now will make as much, if not

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Speaker 1: way more money for the person who is employed in

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Speaker 1: that position. Then you know a job that we would

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Speaker 1: consider maybe more high end, So the person who works

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Speaker 1: in an h v a C job for instance, maybe

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Speaker 1: pulling in bank and you might not have any idea so,

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Speaker 1: or driving trucks or driving trucks right, or working in manufacturing.

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Speaker 1: These are fundamentally um these are fundamentally crucial jobs to

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Speaker 1: the American economy. Not to mention, I mean just like

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Speaker 1: working in like high end restaurants is on the wait staff,

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Speaker 1: I mean you can pull in crazy amounts of tips

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Speaker 1: a night, more and more, you know, I mean you

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Speaker 1: don't have to go to school for that at all.

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Speaker 1: I mean, again, we're not saying don't go to school.

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Speaker 1: There is a disparity in this like myth that sort

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Speaker 1: of pushed this American dream, which is usually the case

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Speaker 1: with American dream type ideals, that there are lots of

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Speaker 1: ways to skin a financial cat. That's right. But if

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Speaker 1: you do want to get in the upper echelons and

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Speaker 1: find yourself in that one that point oh one percent,

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Speaker 1: make yourself a podcast. No, definitely, please don't do that

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Speaker 1: unless your name is Ira. But then let's see, I

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Speaker 1: would say you have to have a college degree to

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Speaker 1: make that kind of leap to those like heights most likely,

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Speaker 1: except for with the exception of maybe a handful of

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Speaker 1: people that have ever gotten that through investing in through

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Speaker 1: family funding. Oh sure, sure. By if by family funding

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Speaker 1: you mean inheritance, then that is that is clearly, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that is the primary avenue for one percent hood. It's

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Speaker 1: not the game is broken, the great the game is

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Speaker 1: more broken than Monopoly, which is probably the most famous

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Speaker 1: of broken games. But before we get all gloom and

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Speaker 1: doom about it, let's let's get let's get straight to

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Speaker 1: the heart of the matter. There does appear to be

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Speaker 1: this tangible financial benefit. It is your choice whether you

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Speaker 1: decide to go to college. And I think what we're

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Speaker 1: saying here at the offset is that you should not

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Speaker 1: feel like you have to that just try to think

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Speaker 1: very clearly and carefully through the process because it is

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Speaker 1: a big decision, you know, and debt is uh much

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Speaker 1: like a tattoo. It can stay with you for the

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Speaker 1: rest of your life and it's very difficult to remove.

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Speaker 1: That comes for us, all right, And that brings us

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Speaker 1: to today's question. Is there a student loan conspiracy or

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Speaker 1: to phrase it a different way, what the hell is

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Speaker 1: going on with student loans in this country? That I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's an unfair question. I don't think so

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Speaker 1: at all. Let's start with what exactly a student loan is. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's right in the name. It's a loan. Somebody, some

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Speaker 1: institution is going to give you a large chunk of

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Speaker 1: cash so that you can, specifically, in this case, use

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Speaker 1: it to pay for tuition, for books, for housing, student housing,

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Speaker 1: for food, for whatever you need in order to get

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Speaker 1: through your college experience. And that money is often going

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Speaker 1: to be distributed in some degree, in a lump some

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Speaker 1: kind of fashion, so that some goes straight to your

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Speaker 1: cool or your institution of learning, and then some other

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Speaker 1: portion goes to you, and it's up to you as

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Speaker 1: an individual to parse that out and budget that out.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of us when we're in college, we

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Speaker 1: end up spending that on really cool adventures instead of

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Speaker 1: you know, instead of school books. But those books are

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Speaker 1: a racket all their own. That's a different podcast. Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, three for a textbook. That sounds right, but

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Speaker 1: you can sell it back for thirty five the end

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Speaker 1: of the term to the same place that sold it

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Speaker 1: to you. It's like my DVD investments. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I tried. I recently was like, I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: rid of the clutter, and I haven't watched these DVDs

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Speaker 1: in years, So I boxed them all up, took them

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Speaker 1: with high hopes to a second hand book place. You

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Speaker 1: go to a booknook. I went to booknook. They handed

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Speaker 1: back almost of them to me and offered me about

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Speaker 1: ten dollars in store credit for the ones that they

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Speaker 1: wanted store credit. Yeah, it was. It was pretty embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: Did you take it? Yeah? I mean, like literally, only

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Speaker 1: one of like five things out of like several hundred

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Speaker 1: and they're still in the back of my hunt of it. Well,

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Speaker 1: much like you know, these student loan companies offer everyone

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Speaker 1: these these loans, but unlike your DVDs, these loans are

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Speaker 1: very enticing because a lot of times they have low

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Speaker 1: interest rates, at least comparatively to other loans that you

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Speaker 1: might get three to seven Yeah, that's really nice. And

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Speaker 1: also you have a grace period, like if you see

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Speaker 1: one of those credit cards that says, you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to pay anything for twelve months or something,

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Speaker 1: or zero percent a p RNs for a year, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then and then and then get another one of

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Speaker 1: those zero percent offers that. Yeah, but for real, that's

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Speaker 1: that's why these loans. Perhaps at least one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons these loans are so enticing because of that interest

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Speaker 1: rate in the pretty long grace period. Well, and because

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Speaker 1: it goes to a good cause, right it is further

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Speaker 1: your education. Education is widely agreed. I want to be

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Speaker 1: careful about how I say this, because some people might object.

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Speaker 1: Education is widely agreed to be a public good. We

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Speaker 1: can all agree that depending on the type of education

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Speaker 1: we're talking about, knowing things like engineering, math, literacy, that

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Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. These these things are just matters

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Speaker 1: of fact rather than opinion. The more people who are

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Speaker 1: aware of these things, the more people who are competent

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Speaker 1: in these disciplines, the better society will tend to be.

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Speaker 1: It's true, we can't I mean, everybody, the world is

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Speaker 1: not going to automatically be perfect if everybody gets a

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Speaker 1: chance to study trigonometry. But that is a positive factor.

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Speaker 1: You know, learning is knowledge is power. It wouldn't hurt anything,

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Speaker 1: except for maybe everybody would be a little more bothered

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Speaker 1: by simple things that require co plex trigonots trigonometry that

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Speaker 1: I just don't understand. Also, yeah, okay, trigonometry may not

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Speaker 1: be the best example. But it is true that these

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Speaker 1: these loans are for good cause. They have a grace period,

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Speaker 1: typically sometime after an education is completed, so while you

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Speaker 1: are a student past a certain threshold of course hours,

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Speaker 1: you will not have to pay this loan. Not all

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Speaker 1: student loans are the same. Some are federally funded by

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Speaker 1: these United States of America, some are private, and some

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Speaker 1: are designed specifically like pell grants to help financially needy students.

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Speaker 1: And those aren't really loans, that's money that is given

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Speaker 1: to you. Uh. Some offer protection for borrowers, and then,

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Speaker 1: of course interest rates that should be below market. And

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Speaker 1: when the federal government issues these loans, they offer low

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Speaker 1: fixed interest rates and that makes them more attractive in

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Speaker 1: contrast to private loans that may have a variable rate

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Speaker 1: of some sort. So we don't have to get too

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Speaker 1: far in the weeds on the different types of loans

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Speaker 1: other than to establish the primary categories that differentiate student

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Speaker 1: loans from any other kind of loan you would get.

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Speaker 1: They're not a mortgage, they're not a car note, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: These have private public lenders. They have qualification requirements right Um,

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Speaker 1: the primary one being that you can't get a student

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Speaker 1: loan unless you're going to be a student, right Uh.

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Speaker 1: They have a lower interest rates, and they have flexibility

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Speaker 1: on their payment schedules and their timelines. You said that

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Speaker 1: these were enticing, Matt, You're absolutely right. Tons of people

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Speaker 1: have student loans. There are more than forty four million

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Speaker 1: borrowers and people who have a student loan with some

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Speaker 1: outfit uh in the country as we speak now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they had to in many ways. These people were

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Speaker 1: forced into this because in the decade between two thousand

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Speaker 1: six and two thousand sixteen, the overall cost of college

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Speaker 1: rose sixty three, and that increased student loan debt by

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Speaker 1: four times. The student loan debt now is at around

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Speaker 1: one point five Get ready for this trillion? Uh? Okay,

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Speaker 1: with a T like t BOS and TLC. I can't

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Speaker 1: calculate it. My trigonometry skills are not up to par

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Speaker 1: as they should be. Can you take Trigg? I did?

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Speaker 1: I took Advanced Trigg, but I had no idea. I

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Speaker 1: I kind of muddled my way through algebra, man, I

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Speaker 1: had to get I was not good with math. Is

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Speaker 1: not my strong student much. I've got the gift of gab.

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Speaker 1: So it's tough to think of one point five trillion.

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Speaker 1: It's it's distressingly difficult for most of us to comprehend, uh,

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Speaker 1: to really comprehend what a billion is, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean. So one way that could be helpful to

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Speaker 1: to get our our heads around what one point five

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Speaker 1: trillion is is to compare it to other things. Um,

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Speaker 1: Facebook is worth five d forty one point five billion,

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Speaker 1: ish Microsoft seven hundred fifty point six billion. These are ballparking.

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Speaker 1: That means that the American student loan debt is worth

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Speaker 1: more than those two entities. Put together, it's about five

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Speaker 1: one billion, more than all the credit card debt in

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Speaker 1: this country combined. Whoa, it's it's big money. That's so big,

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Speaker 1: so big that it's like ephemeral, made up money. Like

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it just seems unquantifiably huge to me. Like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I get that it is in fact, by

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Speaker 1: its very nature quantifiable, but it just seems like g

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Speaker 1: d P kind of money. Yeah, I mean it's bunkers

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Speaker 1: total total US debt kind of money back in the day,

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Speaker 1: and now that's just ridiculous. But yeah, I see what

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Speaker 1: you're saying. That's that's wow. Well what's the um? What's

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Speaker 1: like the average amount that each person is like carrying

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Speaker 1: around of UM? For people in the class of sixteen,

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Speaker 1: for instance, the average student would would graduate with thirty

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Speaker 1: seven thousand, one seventy two dollars in student loan debt.

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Speaker 1: Just to offer a counterpoint, I was lucky and that

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Speaker 1: I had Hope scholarship, which is a Georgia thing. I

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Speaker 1: think probably Matt did as well. All probably we're all

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Speaker 1: pumping our fists here. Um. I did still take out

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Speaker 1: a couple of student loans, but it was to pay

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Speaker 1: for like equipment that I wanted for my studies. I

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Speaker 1: was doing film work and I wanted like a nice

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Speaker 1: computer and all of that, and just ways to supplement

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Speaker 1: my income while I was in school, even though I worked,

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Speaker 1: but it was like a crappy job at a music store.

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Speaker 1: But so I don't have that much student loan debt,

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Speaker 1: but it is the one that I pay attention to

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Speaker 1: the least because of the fact that the interest rates

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Speaker 1: so low and it takes them so long to actually

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Speaker 1: come after you and call you and be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you forgot to pay your your loan. And it's not

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Speaker 1: that I can't afford to pay it. I just kind

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Speaker 1: of forget and I need to set it up on

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Speaker 1: like an auto draft. But I think that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are in that boat because it's not as

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Speaker 1: um urgent feeling. Sometimes unless you're not paying at all,

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Speaker 1: then they'll start trying to take out, you know, what's

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Speaker 1: the word, garnish your wages or there's definitely recourse that

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Speaker 1: they can take, but it hasn't been that big of

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Speaker 1: a deal to me. So for background, for anyone who

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Speaker 1: hasn't heard of this, who is outside of Georgia where

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Speaker 1: a podcast is based, Hope is a state level a

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Speaker 1: state level college attendance assistance program financial assistance program for

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Speaker 1: college based on people's grade point average, based on the

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Speaker 1: originally based on the revenue for the Georgia Lottery program,

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Speaker 1: which was great press for the lottery here. Other states

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Speaker 1: have similar things, and similar to the Hope Scholarship. Those

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Speaker 1: things are increasingly in a lot of situations. They're increasingly

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Speaker 1: endangered by legislation, so we don't know how long they're

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Speaker 1: going to be around. But they did some great stuff

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Speaker 1: for college students we personally in It is my opinion.

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Speaker 1: I hope those kind of things continue. But the most

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Speaker 1: important point about those kinds of programs is they typically

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Speaker 1: do not give you a full ride. You can have

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Speaker 1: Hope Scholarship, you will still need money for supplies. You'll

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Speaker 1: probably still need money for textbooks. You will still need

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Speaker 1: to find a place to live. You know what I mean. Um,

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Speaker 1: but something is better than nothing, right. Still, these loans

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Speaker 1: remain popular among the class of Congratulations to everyone who

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Speaker 1: graduated college last year. Yeah, this is a massive achievement

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Speaker 1: and I wish you the best in your coming adventures.

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Speaker 1: Let us know what your experience is like without having

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Speaker 1: ever met I can say that if you're listening now,

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Speaker 1: there is an overwhelming likelihood that you also took out

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Speaker 1: student loans sometime before you graduated. In six of you did.

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Speaker 1: And everyone who graduated, if we take you, if we

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Speaker 1: take everyone, is one big group. That was an average

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Speaker 1: debt of twenty nine thousand, eight hundred dollars, including both

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Speaker 1: private and federal, and fourteen percent of the parents of

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Speaker 1: people who graduated in took out an average of thirty

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Speaker 1: five thousand, six hundred dollars in federal parent plus loans.

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Speaker 1: I know this is this is a lot of money

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Speaker 1: on the table, but what price can you put on

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Speaker 1: your future? So in many ways, this large agglomeration of

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Speaker 1: debt has altered American society. Multiple generations now are far

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Speaker 1: less likely to successfully purchase a home or start a

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Speaker 1: family around the same time their parents, their grandparents, other

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Speaker 1: predecessors did. It's simply not the reality anymore. Um that

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Speaker 1: someone can get out of college, get an entry level

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Speaker 1: job and then payoff, buy a car and pay it

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Speaker 1: off in a few years, and and buy a house.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't happen anymore, especially in certain cities. Is real

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Speaker 1: estate just goes bonkers? You know, like Atlanta, the way

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Speaker 1: it's being gentrified and stuff. You can't find a house

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Speaker 1: around here for under two d seventy thousand dollars for

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Speaker 1: like a starter home and anything like Below that, it's

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Speaker 1: going to be like a massive fixer upper, which is

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Speaker 1: like scary in and of itself, and then couldn't quickly

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Speaker 1: become two hundred and seventy dollars total worth of work.

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Speaker 1: So instead, what people will end up doing when bedeviled

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Speaker 1: by these inescapable loans is they'll say, Okay, I have

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Speaker 1: to push off this one milestone to like can figure

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Speaker 1: a way out of this hole or at least to

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Speaker 1: get it to a more manageable place. Yeah, that's what

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Speaker 1: my wife did. It was not a good idea. So

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Speaker 1: is this a case of pure mistake pure misstep? Is

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Speaker 1: this a comedy of errors on the part of economists

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Speaker 1: um the people in charge of deciding how much wish

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Speaker 1: and should cost the federal government? Private lenders would be

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Speaker 1: college students, continuing college students, people who are returning students.

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Speaker 1: Is accidental mismanagement on any one particular person's part or

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Speaker 1: is there something else at play? We'll get to that

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Speaker 1: after a quick sponsor break yes there is. Here's where

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Speaker 1: it gets crazy totally. Arguably, yes, arguably this is UH

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Speaker 1: something purposeful um, but maybe not maybe not a grand conspiracy,

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Speaker 1: but maybe several different groups of motivated UH stakeholders. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I always gonna see very greedy institutions, but no, it's

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's true. They are stakeholders rights that see

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Speaker 1: you as a money battery. Yes, yes, there's a money

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Speaker 1: battery that they don't ever have to throw away until

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Speaker 1: you die. So the first student loans, if you want

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Speaker 1: to look at a quick timeline of this, we can

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Speaker 1: just run through the super quickly. First student loans in

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Speaker 1: US were offered exclusively two kids at Harvard way back

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Speaker 1: in eighteen forty, and there were no public loans until

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Speaker 1: the twentieth century, and the U. S Department of Education

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Speaker 1: was founded in what was that eighteen sixty seven. They

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Speaker 1: didn't give out federal student loans until the passage of

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Speaker 1: something called Title four of the Higher Education Actor h

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Speaker 1: e A in nineteen sixty five. So in the two

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Speaker 1: decades before the institution of federally guaranteed student loans, the

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Speaker 1: US experienced a significant increase in college attendance, thanks in

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Speaker 1: large part to the passage of the nineteen forty four

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Speaker 1: g I bell Um and fulfilling the need, this need

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Speaker 1: for affordable higher education. The g I bell actually subsidized

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Speaker 1: or in highly paid for the cost of college education

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Speaker 1: for nearly half of Americans returning for World War two um.

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Speaker 1: And you have to remember this was a time where

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Speaker 1: this was not an option. So this was like a

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Speaker 1: big deal and was also a large percentage of our

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Speaker 1: of of you know, able bodied men that were going

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Speaker 1: off to war and then coming back and getting this benefit.

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Speaker 1: So since its inception, the program has remained popular over

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Speaker 1: the years. And it's true a lot of people nowadays

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Speaker 1: that it is a choice to join the military do

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Speaker 1: so because of those g I Bill benefits, which is

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Speaker 1: a slippery slope when you think about it, it really is,

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Speaker 1: or they re up, you know, I mean, there's a

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Speaker 1: whole whole thing behind it. So by nineteen seventies six

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Speaker 1: or nineteen seventies seven, all undergraduate students became eligible for

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Speaker 1: something we mentioned earlier, Pell grants. And these two popular programs,

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Speaker 1: the g I Bill and the PELL grant, increased college

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Speaker 1: attendance rates because people who previously would never have had

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Speaker 1: a chance to obtain the financial support to go to college. Um,

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Speaker 1: they finally had doors that were closed to them. Open.

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Speaker 1: Good thing, right, American dream. Right. However, not all of

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Speaker 1: this assistance has been beneficial. The problems with student loans

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Speaker 1: started to show up way back in the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, roughly six. That's a when basically we as

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Speaker 1: a country realized that we had incurred around ten billion

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Speaker 1: dollars in student loans. And if you think about nineteen

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Speaker 1: eight six dollars ten billion is like saying a trillion dollars.

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Speaker 1: At least it's close if you say that today. Um So,

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Speaker 1: in that same year, more than a quarter of students borrowed,

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Speaker 1: and they they owed more than ten thousand dollars if

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Speaker 1: you look at them, you know, per person as an average,

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Speaker 1: more than ten thousand dollars in student loan debt. Um. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that would be nice. Just ten thousand dollars. I wish

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Speaker 1: it was the eighties again, ten thousand dollars six is

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Speaker 1: uh the equivalent of two almost twenty three thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Still take it? Still take it? Yeah, it's still a deal. Huh.

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Speaker 1: So by the nineteen nineties, student loan debt really began

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Speaker 1: to skyrocket. In ninety three, the average debt of a

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Speaker 1: bachelor's degree, the average debt burden was about nine thousand bucks.

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Speaker 1: Five years from then it was fifteen thousand, and then

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Speaker 1: my two thousand and three it jumped to seventeen and

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Speaker 1: a half thousand. Let's not forget this happens in lock

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Speaker 1: step with what's called wage stagnation. Wage stagnation is when

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Speaker 1: someone says, you know, well, the minimum wage is this right?

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Speaker 1: Or I pay I've I've paid every employee for the

401
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: past twenty years thirty two thousand dollars twenty eight thousand

402
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: dollars whatever to do this job. Never mind that everything

403
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Speaker 1: else is becoming more expensive, right, never mind that that

404
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: every single one of those twenty eight thousand dollars, individually

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Speaker 1: and collectively buys less than it did before. And it's

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Speaker 1: it's a complex argument, but that's the gist, right, the

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Speaker 1: cost of If the cost of living increases, then the

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00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: demands on an individual budget increase, and if the wage stagnates,

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Speaker 1: there's just there's less and less pie to slice. Yeah,

410
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: that's a that's a really good way of looking at it.

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Speaker 1: An unfortunate reality. Um, so you got that wage wage stagnation.

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Speaker 1: But then you've also got this cultural thing that's happening

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Speaker 1: in the US at the same time, or at least

414
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Speaker 1: roughly in the same time, where college is seen as

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Speaker 1: an absolute necessity to become successful. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: be an upstanding person? Do you want to be worth

417
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: something in this country to society? Go to college. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter what you study. No, no, of course not.

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Speaker 1: Also pledge if you if you can. Yeah, underwater basket

420
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: weaving if you want to get that. Is underwater basket

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Speaker 1: weaving like a physical fitness elective. No, it's it's the

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00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 1: euphemism for someone taking a useless elective. Oh there you go,

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Speaker 1: So I like it. Yeah, my drum instructor used to

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00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: do that. They'll also called the Mickey Mouse courses. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I never heard underwater basket weaving. I love them. I

426
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Speaker 1: want to take that course. It's probably pretty tough, and

427
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: you think about it and you have to It's probably

428
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: like film, you have to buy a lot of equipment.

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Speaker 1: I imagine what I'm thinking about this too much. I

430
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: mean you surely you'd have to at least rent some

431
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: scuba stuff if you're gonna not anyway, No, no, no no,

432
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: no more tangents. I guess like, does your body have

433
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: to be underwater? Do you just have to put the

434
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: basket underwater? Unclear? Unclear. They're probably multiple levels. There's like

435
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: a one on one and one anyway, let us know

436
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: if you have experience with underwater basket weaving. At the

437
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: same time, though, at the same time that wages are

438
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: not increased, cost of living is increasing, College is becoming

439
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: seen as a necessity. The cost of just going to college,

440
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: just the tuition is increasing precipitously. It's like, now not

441
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: only do you have to go here, but it's way

442
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: more expensive than any of the other times before you

443
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: were alive the people went and this this puts us

444
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: in a real bind as a society. We have to

445
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: start asking ourselves who profits now the colleges and universities

446
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: that would be first on the list, right. There are

447
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: nonprofit colleges, and there are profit colleges which could be

448
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: the subject of their own show. The for profit colleges,

449
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 1: the University of Phoenix is and stuff like that. We

450
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: can probably do a different episode about those, especially the

451
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: unaccredited ones which are frankly robbing students blind and going

452
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: to court over it. But the institutions that we would

453
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: all like to consider more legitimate also have their fingers

454
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: in the pie. Colleges have been caught raising costs and

455
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: blaming the increase on various outside uncontrollable economic pressures. You

456
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like our president of the college

457
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: needs to get paid a lot more millions. Yeah right, yeah,

458
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: Or we have, um, we have desperately needed infrastructure, uh,

459
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: infrastructure maintenance that we have to conduct, right Like ours

460
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: is an old and storied institution, and the bridges and

461
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: the walls won't fix themselves. That asbestos is not going

462
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: to magically lead. I'm making that last one up, but

463
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: you know what I mean there. It's the argument that

464
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: we have to maintain and upkeep the institution exactly makes

465
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: sense and would make more sense if it was true.

466
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: It turns out in multiple cases that while these colleges

467
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: are claiming they need to increase tuition primarily for these

468
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: maintenance costs or like staff requirements, pensions, et cetera, what

469
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: it turns out that they've been doing They've been squirreling

470
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: away massive cash reserves outside of endowments. I believe it

471
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: was West Virginia got caught doing this and Their defense

472
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: was that, uh, other schools do it. Oh yeah, of course,

473
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: so it's it's dangerous. And of course Wall Street investors

474
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: are in on the game. They're in on the game

475
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: because if you, if you want to profit from this

476
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: kind of financial sphere, this financial market, one thing that's

477
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: really going to stick out to you is that student

478
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: loan debt, unlike many other kinds of debt, cannot be discharged.

479
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: Discharged means, you know, let's say, just pick a random

480
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: coworker of hours, not one of us. So I don't

481
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: want to pick on us, Ramsey don't, so he leave Ramsey.

482
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: So our super producer, Ramsey Yunt, who is a fantastic

483
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: guy who produces, uh produces movie Crush and I think

484
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: works on Committed as well. Right, Ramsey Young, Let's say

485
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: things get weird, Uh, he gets he gets too deep

486
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: in the underwater basket weaving industry, and he asked to,

487
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: for one reason or another, declare bankruptcy. Statistically speaking, in

488
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: this country, one of the the main reason we declare

489
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: bankruptcy is if something went wrong medically, we're just coming

490
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: up with different episodes left and right. So let's say

491
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: this unfortunate thing happens to Ramsey and he has bankruptcy.

492
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: He gets various debts discharged, credit card debt, consolidated discharged,

493
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: mortgage solidated discharge. Let's say loses his house and he

494
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: has to move to a rental or something. Um car

495
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: no, no no, you know, let's see cars were possessed boom.

496
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: So he gets a fresh start, and he keeps his

497
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: nose clean and maintains good financial hygiene. Then eventually he

498
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: will recover from this, except for his student loans, which

499
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: will almost never go away. There is a myth that

500
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: says student loans never go away during bankruptcy. That's not true.

501
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: It's just virtually true. It's very very difficult, Like on

502
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: the order of student loans are going to stay with

503
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: you if you go bankrupt. Yeah, i'd say generally what

504
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: I've seen happen as they get deferred just for a

505
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: time period and then they just come right back yep, yep.

506
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: Or this may not be the way it works in bankruptcy.

507
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: They may enter forbearance, which is like the ugly cousin,

508
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: the ugly meaner cousin of defirmaim. So, of course investors

509
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: are going to be in this game because it's a

510
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: debt that will always need to be paid, and in

511
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: some cases it's a debt to pay on the way

512
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: it's paid. In some cases it is a debt that

513
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: follows p goal for decades or the entirety of their lives.

514
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: There are people who have retired who are sixty five

515
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: plus and still are paying their student loans. This is true. Yeah,

516
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: there are people in my immediate family that are in

517
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: that book. And it's not discharged, right, it's not. It's

518
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: not changed. And in some cases we have people who

519
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: are um who are paying entirely on the interest or

520
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: the fees of their loans rather than the principle UM.

521
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: There's a great anecdote in The Rolling Stone about a

522
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: lady named Veronica Martysh. She's a sixty eight year old

523
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: veteran at the time of writing. She served in the

524
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: Armed Forces during Vietnam. She's a grandmother. She's had a

525
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: clean record her entire life, and she considers herself a patriot.

526
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: But student loans ruined her life. In nine she took

527
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: out an eight thousand dollars student loan through Sally may Uh,

528
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: and then five years later, after some people eide and

529
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: her family, she fell behind under payments she and heered

530
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: alone rehab program, and with feast and interests, that original

531
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: eight thousand dollar loan ballooned into twenty seven thousand dollars.

532
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: She has this woman to the date of that article,

533
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: which was relatively recently, she has paid more than sixty

534
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars to date and is nowhere near getting

535
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: rid of the principle from eight thousand just to just

536
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: to reiterate, from eight thousand dollars to sixty three thousand

537
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: dollars paid. Oh yeah, um yeah, that is that is terrible,

538
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: and that is not an uncommon thing. Unfortunately, even if

539
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: you took out loans in the early two thousand's, the

540
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: ballooning factor and trying to pay down the principle while

541
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: furiously paying off all of that interest. I think we

542
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 1: can all, uh, we can all we all know what

543
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: that's like. Yeah, and I mean again, I'm not trying

544
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: to be flipping about it, but um I mine has

545
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: not shrunk very much at all, even though I didn't

546
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: take out a ton It's like maybe like ten tho

547
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: dollars and like that was what I took out to

548
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 1: begin with, maybe even less. It's not that far away

549
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: from where it was when I started hitting like their

550
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: late two thousands or you know, around two thousand four.

551
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: Uh So, yeah, it's something that even if you don't

552
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: notice it, it's definitely not doing you any favors. And

553
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: you are paying into the system by not paying it off,

554
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: you know. But I can't imagine her situation. That's it's heartbreak.

555
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking. And of course, as we have encountered in

556
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: so many other episodes or so many other subjects, so

557
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: many other stories, whatever the federal government is involved in,

558
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: a problem occurs, everybody in the government says her rumph,

559
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: he rumph, he rumph. Something must be done. Row, let's

560
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: let's figure out what's going on here. Do they say

561
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: that that's how everybody whispers in Congress. No, it's library rules.

562
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: We will tell you what the government thinks about this

563
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: and what their involvement is after a word from our sponsor.

564
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: So yes, Uncle Sammy boy, the Feds, big brother, Sam

565
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 1: the Sham, the United States of America, Sam the Sham,

566
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: great band, by the way, great performer. The federal government

567
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: is the biggest lender of American student loans. This makes sense.

568
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: For years and years and years, a lot of this

569
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: money was managed by private banks and loan companies like

570
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: Sally May, who I have often referred to as my

571
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: real long term girlfriends. Only now it's not even Sally

572
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: May anymore. We'll get to that in a second. Congress

573
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: cut out the middleman of their lending fees, and Sally

574
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 1: May spun off its servicing arm into Bump Bannada, the

575
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: publicly traded company Navy, which is a weird name for

576
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, but just the same. There she is, she's

577
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: she's actually gendered. Navigant is gender neutral. Yeah, it's twenty nineteen,

578
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: that's right, So uh, Navigant's not too far from sally Me,

579
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: though they're led by former exects from sally Me, and

580
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,720
Speaker 1: the company describes itself as a leading provider of asset

581
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: management and business processing solutions, I know, for education, healthcare,

582
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: and government clients. But it's best known on the on

583
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: these mean financial streets as being one of the very

584
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: lucky companies that one coveted federal contracts to make sure

585
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: students repay their loans. And that's where the trouble begins.

586
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: Why are these coveted, you might ask? Navian is the

587
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: primary point of contact or the service or for more

588
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: student loans in the United States than any other company

589
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:02,439
Speaker 1: handling twelve million borrower is and three hundred billion in debt.

590
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: So surely there's money to be made with those kind

591
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 1: of figures. Yeah, and the company really really made it big,

592
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: at least under the Obama administration, not necessarily that the

593
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: administration anything to do with it. But while during that

594
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: time they just they flourished. Let's say, um, It's stock

595
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,919
Speaker 1: rose sharply after the election of Donald Trump, which is nice.

596
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 1: That occurred not that long ago, and a lot of

597
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: other companies saw a big spike there. But Navian also

598
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: has a ton of complaints. They've got more complaints than

599
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 1: any other borrower, any other servicer, and this is according

600
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: to a Fusion analysis of data over a course of years. Right, right,

601
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: So these complaints have a running theme. The theme is

602
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: that the company Naviens, has failed to live up to

603
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: the terms of its contracts and that it illegally harasses consumers.

604
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: I'm sure we all have friends and maybe some personal experience,

605
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: uh not to call anybody out where where in navant

606
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: uh stalks you right from random numbers from random numbers? Seriously? Um,

607
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: But Navian says in their defense that most of the

608
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: most of the anger that they're getting from consumers, and

609
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: those they say consumers, not former students. It's like, what

610
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: do we We already did an episode of that, right,

611
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: you know that citizens became consumers. We've touched on that

612
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: different show, but we've we've touched on that in multiple

613
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 1: episodes of this show. It's scary. It's scary if you

614
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: are over twenty five. That happened while you were alive,

615
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 1: and if you're old enough to have seen it, it's

616
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: it's spooky. How how we used to say citizen and

617
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: now we say consumer. So gross Man, but Navian says,

618
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: in Navian's case, to be fair, these are consumers. It's

619
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: a publicly traded company. So Navian says that most of

620
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: the problems that people are plaining about come from the

621
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: structural issues surrounding college finance, like terms of the loans

622
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: and that they say is up to the federal government

623
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: and then private banks. We don't make the rules, they say,

624
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: we just we're just doing our job filling the contract.

625
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 1: So the complaints are not about our customer service. They're

626
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: complaining about the wrong thing. They should be complaining about

627
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: the banks and the fetes we didn't make the product,

628
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: We're just the customer service. In sixteen, they received twenty

629
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 1: three complaints per one thousand people borrowers. See. I feel

630
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: like words like consumer and borrowers are trying to distance

631
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 1: us from the fact that these are people talking about

632
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: the borrowers as little people that live in the walls,

633
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: and I never saw that was anything. They're just little guys.

634
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: They have like a whole city in the walls and

635
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: they're like quarters or something. Yeah, they've done a big borrow. Okay,

636
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Is there a mayor like bubble Dooonry

637
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 1: or something, bubble Dooontry. I forgot So that number twenty

638
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: three complaints per hundred thousand is more than twice that

639
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: of their nearest competitor from Navant was named as a

640
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: defendant in five hundred and thirties separate distinct federal lawsuits,

641
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: which actually seems a little bit low to my ear. Well, yeah,

642
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: how are you going to afford to help file a lawsuit?

643
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: That's okay? Yep, I mean really there there should probably

644
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: be more. But they they do make a salient point

645
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: when they say, you know, Navant as an organization is

646
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: not capable of making the federal government change its interest

647
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: rates for you. They can't really do that. They can, however,

648
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: lobby and they do and then and they don't lobby

649
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: in your best interest. So we when we go into

650
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: the world of conspiratorial will cover up thinking. With student loans,

651
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: one of the things we run into is an interesting argument.

652
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys heard this before. I

653
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: had never really thought about it this way. Their critics

654
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: will argue that the practice of indebting people for going

655
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: to college has become a form of indentured servitude, primarily

656
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: because it's so difficult to discharge the loan and it

657
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: makes you um much more likely to get hooked on

658
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: a paycheck to paycheck lifestyle. Yeah, I I you know,

659
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: I hate to give my opinion here too much, but

660
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: I could totally see that argument, not necessarily as being true,

661
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: but at least ringing very very true of all of

662
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: the different loans that we take out over the course

663
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: of an um I guess an average middle class American

664
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: lifestyle just just the sheer number of loans that we

665
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: take out that are large enough that cause us to

666
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 1: be paying them for decades, I mean easily decades. Everything

667
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: from you know, your house to your car depending on

668
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 1: what you buy. Well too, I mean not I mentioned

669
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: the helicopter pad you have to have installed on your

670
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: hands still paying. You had to get it, like legally

671
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: you have to get the pad, which I think is malarkey. Well, no,

672
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: And and and to your point, man, I mean, these are

673
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: a lot of things too that are similarly to the

674
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: American dream of college. They're pushed on people to the

675
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: to the point where they feel like if they don't

676
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: do it, if they don't sign the paperwork, they don't

677
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: get into that space, they are less than and they

678
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: will be seen as less than, whether it's status wise

679
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: or whether it means they won't be able to get

680
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: that job or don't be taken seriously for that you know,

681
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: meteoric rise in position that they plan to plot. You know,

682
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: that means they did a good job at life. That's

683
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: a thing, you know. I mean, the whole idea of

684
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: buying a house has its own drawbacks and issues involved,

685
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: you know, inherent in it. Oh absolutely. And And to

686
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: your point then that you're saying earlier, the of all

687
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: of these loans, the student loan is probably could ben,

688
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 1: I would consider it to be the most nefarious because

689
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: it is so difficult to discharge. Um, it's the one

690
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: it's that one hook that sticks in you even if

691
00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: you clear bankruptcy. Right, Yeah, totally. And so this at

692
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: this point we can see why that argument exists. One

693
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: of the questions we have to ask is indentured servitude

694
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: to whom? Who are who are you serving in this?

695
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: In this situation, the argument will usually be something along

696
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 1: the lines of, well, we're making sure that people are

697
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: too busy, scared, and anxious to rise up against the

698
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: status quo. It's kind of like an occupy argument if

699
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: you remember the occupied protests from few years back. So

700
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: it's not it's not specific. But while that is a

701
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: maybe more of a fringe accusation, it also has it

702
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: also reminds us of the argument that, um, the prison

703
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: system replaced the system of chattel slavery, which has some

704
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: other very depressing and very compelling points to it, you

705
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Um at this In this case,

706
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: what we can see, however, is a clear financial incent

707
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 1: to for this system, which is predatory in some ways

708
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: to continue. Now, is it is it predatory to let

709
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: people borrow money from school for schooling, for education and

710
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 1: expect them to pay it back. Absolutely not. Is it

711
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: predatory to change the laws and move the goal post

712
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: while these people are already attempting to pay this thing back. Yes,

713
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,879
Speaker 1: I would argue that is very much predatory. And there

714
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: are you know, things in place, little by little that

715
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: are allowing some people to get quote unquote forgiven for

716
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 1: some of these loans, especially when it comes to taking

717
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: out loans for some of these for profit colleges that

718
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 1: have been wrapped up in so much litigation. I believe

719
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: there is actually a system where you have to be

720
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: notified that you're eligible. But if you went in to

721
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 1: debt to go to one of these for profit colleges

722
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: and then they kind of did a fly by night

723
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: move and disappeared and you were left on the hook,

724
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: there are ways to get forgiven for that debt. But overall,

725
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: it's a lot of people making some kind of rash

726
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: decisions at a time when they feel compelled to do so.

727
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: Maybe they're not thinking of the full implications of is

728
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 1: this degree going to make me enough money to actually

729
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: pay back this debt? And then there's this vicious cycle,

730
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: right Yeah, Honestly, what what would benefit most people entering

731
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: college now or considering it is all right, we need

732
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: like you guys remember the DARE program, which absolutely did

733
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: not work. Right, We talked about this before. Yeah, dare

734
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: dare to give a kid some hope. So there have

735
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: been a ton of p s as with things like

736
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: this is your brain on drugs? Or you know, if

737
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: you look at someone once you will get in STD

738
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: Abstinence is the only way all those kinds of things.

739
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: I found them hilarious. They did. Uh. They were probably

740
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 1: well intentioned, but they did not work in the way

741
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: that the people who created them wish they would. He

742
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: could use some heavy handed alarmist P says about the

743
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: student loan industry for kids who are juniors or seniors

744
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: in high school or even uh, I don't know, even

745
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: early high school. I would say, just so as soon

746
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: as you get in that environment you're thinking about it

747
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: and you can bring something to your parents. Yeah, I

748
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: don't know. I would. I would that we also need

749
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: more um we also need more mandatory financial awareness classes

750
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: and people should just have to take a budget class

751
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: in high school. Why is that it makes no sense?

752
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: So many things they make you take that are such

753
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 1: a waste of time, like that would really set a foundation. Yeah,

754
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: they expect your parents to teach you, but so many

755
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: people's parents are bad at money, right, right, what's the

756
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: incentive to teach it? Though? That's where the question gets tricky.

757
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: Are you saying that it's almost like systematic that we

758
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: keep people in the dark about smart financial decisions and

759
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: the powers that be can reap the benefits. I'm just

760
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: saying it seems like an easy win to say, Hey,

761
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: let's teach people basic budgeting, home economic X man eighth grade.

762
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: Y'all didn't get that underwater basket weaving sixth grade? I mean,

763
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: you're Matt. You might be laughing now, but I'm telling you,

764
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 1: if you catch this guy with some straw in a pool,

765
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: I don't doubt it. Oh I'm I am out of control.

766
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: It's it's a beautiful thing to watch, and it's cool.

767
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: You know, it's even better than underwater basket weaving. Synchronize

768
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: underwater basket weaving when you have a whole group of

769
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: people doing it, I don't know, it creeps in sync,

770
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: which is what the boy band is named after. Right,

771
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 1: That's how they all missed. So is this is this

772
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: a bubble? This is one of the big concerns. I

773
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: mean not underwater basket weaving your boy bands. I think

774
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: K pop is here to stay. Also, but is this

775
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: student owned situation of bubble? The answer for a lot

776
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: of people is going to be yes. But the answer

777
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: for a lot of people is going to be new.

778
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: What we we should explain what we mean when we

779
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: say a bubble in terms of economics. So's a guy

780
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: named Brent goldfar But, professor of Business at the University

781
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: of Maryland. It's an author of a book called Bubbles

782
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: and Crashes, The Boom and Bust of Technological Innovation, and

783
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: he says the best way to think of a bubble

784
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: and financial terms is to think about a stock that

785
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: people keep buying mostly because other people are buying the

786
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 1: same thing. It's a herd movement. And then Vice wrote

787
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: a pretty solid article about this, and they said the

788
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: best known examples of recent bubbles would be the mortgage crisis,

789
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: the homes that people live in in the US. So

790
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: what happened is at least two different sets of people

791
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: started thinking the price of something housing in this case,

792
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: was just going to keep going up. So people kept

793
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: buying property for inflated prices, and people kept lending the

794
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: money to do so. Right, eventually the center cannot hold,

795
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: like Chanua Cheb says, and so the the another bubble

796
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: would be the style the dot com stock bubble in

797
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: the two thousand's, right, and they were very different, but

798
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: they shared one thing, the mass runaway delusion about how

799
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 1: much something, about how much people thought something was worth

800
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: versus how much it was actually worth. And the problem

801
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 1: here is that people say people feel like companies like

802
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: Navigant and Wall Street investors and colleges and universities are

803
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 1: accelerating this bubble because people are saying, well, college education

804
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 1: is worth so much over the span of my life,

805
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 1: that I should go to college, even if it costs

806
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: twice what it did when my parents went right on.

807
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: And of course we do have to mention that scholarships

808
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: are great. Get a scholarship if you can write yeah,

809
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: just yet, And one of my relatives said it this way.

810
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: They're like, no, you have to toil away like a

811
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: like a slave in high school so that you can

812
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: enjoy your life later. Okay, it was tough love, but

813
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: they were right. So now we're in a situation where

814
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: some economists worry that we will reach a point where

815
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: we have generations of people who can never afford a home,

816
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: um are having a very difficult time raising children, let

817
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: alone saving for retirement. That's a pipe dream at this point.

818
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: And eventually they may reach a breaking point and just

819
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: like the scene in that r M music video during

820
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,919
Speaker 1: the traffic jam, everybody hurts, people might just get out

821
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: of their cars and walk away. In this situation, they

822
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: may just stop paying their loans and say screw the

823
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 1: credit rateate This system is not real rage against the machine.

824
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: Bulls on parade eat the rich, and thing is I

825
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,919
Speaker 1: I know plenty of people who again, like I feel

826
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: like a jerk, but I pay my bills. But sometimes

827
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 1: I let the student loan one kind of lapse because

828
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: it don't really haven't really given me an incentive to

829
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 1: not do so. I never really get charged late payments.

830
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: It's not that big of a deal if I forget

831
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: to pay occasionally and just have to get a couple

832
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: of annoying phone calls. But I know people that have

833
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: gone years without paying. And if more people start acting

834
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: like that, that's when the bubble burst happens, right then. Yeah, Yeah,

835
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 1: it's it's something that takes cooperation from all sides, and

836
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: some people have gone so far as to uh leave

837
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 1: the US entirely and start, I kid you, not an

838
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: entirely different life in a foreign country. I would refer

839
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: to Vice again. They have an excellent article on this

840
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: by Alexander Cogan Debt Dodgers, the Americans have moved to

841
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: Europe and what a wall and their student loans, and

842
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: you can find various stories of people who moved to

843
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: Europe and maybe some other countries because they felt like

844
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: they had no choice. Uh, they had no way to

845
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: get a decent job that would allow them to pay

846
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: back the loan. Uh. And now it's a shame that

847
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 1: we're not we're not going to be able to end

848
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: this with a nice bow or ribbon, a nice pat answer. Well,

849
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: and it's because it never ends. And it's because of

850
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: this thing called forbearance. That's what it is. I'm telling you,

851
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: that's why this doesn't end. This is one of the

852
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: primary reasons that this whole thing seems to be uh

853
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 1: an issue. So forbearance. We mentioned it as the meaner

854
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: cousin of deference. But if you really think about this,

855
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: and this is exactly what my wife did, and that's

856
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: why I'm going to be paying student loans for the

857
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: rest of my life, probably even though I didn't take

858
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: any Uh, it's because she had. She went into forbearance

859
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: with her student loans at one point, and rather than

860
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: just the money the loan being on freeze and you

861
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: don't have to pay anything, the inter continues to to

862
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: accumulate as you're not making any payments for whatever the

863
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 1: allotted period of time is. It can be a year,

864
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: it'll be six months, um. It just depends. And then

865
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: that interest it's not like it's not like it goes away,

866
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 1: it gets added to the principle of the loans. Is

867
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: that the same thing as having a loan that's in rehabilitation,

868
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: like rehabilitating alone. That's a term that I've heard thrown

869
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: around as well when you I don't think it is.

870
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: But there is something where when you just straight up

871
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: don't pay your loan and then you start having conversations

872
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 1: with the lender to get back on track. They assess

873
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: what how much you can actually afford to pay, and

874
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: it can be quite a little amount of money, but

875
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: just getting back on track to paying that loan, but

876
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: you're never going to pay it off. They just want

877
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: something from you, you know. Yeah, And that's the thing

878
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: with we're parents, because as you're adding to that principle, know,

879
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 1: you're talking about how hard it is to pay off

880
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: your principle because you are paying such a large percentage

881
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:59,399
Speaker 1: of interest with every payment. UH. It's terrifying that there

882
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:03,399
Speaker 1: are so many humans that are stuck in this kind

883
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: of deal, in this cycle because they were either told

884
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: that forbearance would be a good idea for them, or

885
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: it would be a band aid basically to fix your

886
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: current financial situation where you can't afford to pay your

887
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: student loan payment, um. But and then then it wraps

888
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: you up for the next thirty years. According to statements

889
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: by former loan servicing employees, forbearance was one of the

890
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: go to ways to process a call. UH. They were

891
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 1: instructed to keep calls under seven minutes seven minutes or

892
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 1: less if they could in the easiest way to do

893
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: that was to tell somebody about the the joys of forbearance.

894
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: It is a short term band aid with long term

895
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: ramifications now not be it for their part and other

896
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 1: private loan services are doing pretty well in this environment

897
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: since their executive given around seventy grand to the company's

898
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: Political Action Committee or PACK, which pumped money into different

899
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: different campaigns on the state level to try to prevent

900
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: UH some some states from tackling the debt crisis. UH.

901
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 1: They've spent more than ten point one million dollars lobbying Congress.

902
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: UH four point two million of that spending alone came

903
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: from came since. So that means that navians lobbying is

904
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 1: increasing in step with the bubble. All of the stakes

905
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: are getting higher. There's more and more and more money

906
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: and people involved, and more and more children's futures. I mean,

907
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 1: that's cliche, but it's true. So where does this leave

908
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: us now? Now, let's be honest. There are a lot

909
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: of people who will say this is an issue of

910
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: personal responsibility. You make your bed, you sleep in it,

911
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 1: And there is something to that, right, but it is

912
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 1: it is um disingenuous at best to say that these

913
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: people are given full awareness of what they are agreeing

914
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 1: to do. That's why, That's why in any experiment you

915
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: hear the phrase informed consent rather than consent. And this

916
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 1: this is an important difference. And maybe it's not a

917
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,399
Speaker 1: one on one comparison, but it's still a pretty good one.

918
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 1: Student loans began as a means of allowing less privileged

919
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: Americans to chase previously unobtainable parts of the American dream.

920
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: And now, regardless of how you feel about individual cases,

921
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 1: on a national level, this has become a paralyzing generational problem.

922
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: What happens when no one can pay the debt? What

923
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 1: happens when no one can buy a house? Are we

924
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: going to get to that point? I mean that's dystopian,

925
00:56:54,800 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: that's alarmist, but it is distantly in the cards. Luckily. Now,

926
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: if you're listening and you're underwater and student loan or

927
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: someone you care about is, you can find counseling for

928
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: student loans. There are numerous counseling services. Go with a

929
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: nonprofit one or a government sponsored one. Just because some

930
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: might be scams. Some loan consolidation things are scams. I'm

931
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: sure you've met someone who has received one of those

932
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: weird notices or maybe you received one where they will,

933
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: you know, send you junk mail these guys to look official.

934
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: It's all yeah, it's all about due diligence. Like seriously,

935
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 1: get online, find out what people are saying about whatever

936
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: company it is, or whatever group or government, governmental organization

937
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: before you do anything. And like you said, no, there

938
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: are forgiveness programs, right. Um. Two are two that may

939
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 1: be of great interest to some of us, the Teacher

940
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: Student Loan Forgiveness Program and Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program,

941
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: which means if you work in a qualified job for

942
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: a number of years, poof your your loan has disappeared. Um.

943
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: But the problem here is that not everyone can take

944
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 1: these sorts of jobs for one reason or another. Right. Uh.

945
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 1: Then the big thing on the table, off and on

946
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: again all the time is student loan refinancing. But what

947
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: is that? So let's let's put it like this. What

948
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: if borrowers could reduce their interest rates? Um? This is

949
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: the question that proponents of refinancing are asking. Um. And

950
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: in this case, technically, they'd be able to pay back

951
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 1: their loans on time, improving their own credit and financial

952
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,640
Speaker 1: well being while supporting the integrity and sustainability of the

953
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: federal loan program. Seems like a win win. Yet refinancing

954
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: is incredibly expensive. The Congressional Budget Office estimated the Senator

955
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren's refinancing plan would cost just shy of sixty

956
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: billion dollars over a three year period or twice the

957
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: annual costs of the federal pell grant program, So it's expensive. Also,

958
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: the way it would work out, the savings on that

959
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: refinancing wouldn't be that much on an individual level, and

960
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: it wouldn't. It would help people who are already capable

961
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 1: of paying loans more than when it help people who

962
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: are already defaulted or having difficulty. You know, it's the

963
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: same as like refinancing your house right at a better rate.

964
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: You technically are able to pay it quicker because you're

965
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 1: not getting eaten alive by high interest in ladies and

966
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: things like that, exactly. And right now, I believe there

967
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: is a federal case going forward. A judge ordered the

968
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: Department of Education to implement a student loan forgiveness rule.

969
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: UM that that meets to I think it's what you

970
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: were talking about. It meets you have to meet a

971
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: couple of different requirements, and it's in it's in reaction

972
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 1: to those, um, those really sketchy schools that closed down

973
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,439
Speaker 1: right and left left their students high and dry. So

974
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 1: there is hope, there's always an action you can take.

975
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: But the next time, the next time someone tells you

976
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: that millennials or insert generation here, uh is wasting their

977
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: money on avocado toast or whatever. Many of good though

978
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: it is, it is and it's not that expensive. You

979
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 1: make it at home. Just so the next time someone

980
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 1: spews that kind of stuff, just remember that a lot

981
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,439
Speaker 1: of these people are probably scraping by and it's not

982
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 1: it's not out of laziness that people aren't, you know,

983
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: buying houses or having two point five kids. It's a

984
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: matter of survival for a lot of people. That's right. Okay, Um,

985
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: do you have a student loan story that you want

986
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: to tell us that won't make us all uh feel

987
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: just absolutely terrible or maybe one of those that you

988
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 1: just want to share to get it off your chest. Yeah,

989
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: Do you have something that's like a p s A

990
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 1: fellow listeners about student loans? Do you have an inspiring

991
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: student loans story with a happy ending? And do you

992
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 1: want to deliver it in your own voice with the

993
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: potential of it actually ending up on an episode of

994
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 1: the show Give us a call. We are one eight

995
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 1: three three s T d W y t K. As

996
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: the chorus of voices tells your ears the acronym of

997
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: our show, call that number and don't forget there's a

998
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: three minute cut off, so either try to get your

999
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: story in type three or be prepared to do a

1000
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 1: part two. Tight three is preferable. It really is okay,

1001
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: So if you guys don't want to do that, you

1002
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 1: can find us in most places on social media. We

1003
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: are at conspiracy Stuff on Instagram. We are at conspiracy

1004
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: Stuff show. Oh yeah, and if you want to see

1005
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: some of my various misadventures before I get disappeared, I'm

1006
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: at them Boland. I am at Embryonic Inside if you

1007
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 1: want to see cute kid and kitty picks and maybe

1008
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 1: some modular synth nursery. Yeah, and I am at one

1009
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: eight seven to two four one one just rolls off

1010
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: the tongue. You can also find us, and more importantly,

1011
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: your fellow listeners. I've Facebook right, we have a group

1012
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 1: called Here's where it gets Crazy. Um. You either have

1013
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 1: to name one of us by name to get in,

1014
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 1: or just say something really clever. Let's just know that

1015
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: you actually care about the show. Honestly, if if one

1016
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 1: of the four of us chuckles, you're probably at If

1017
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 1: you don't want to do any of that, you send

1018
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:18,919
Speaker 1: us a good old fashioned email where we are conspiracy

1019
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com.