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Hi everyone, 21 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: I'm Katie Couric and I'm Boma st. John and this 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: is back to biz with Katie and Bows. So, Katie, 23 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: you're back from my book writing. I'm so glad. I 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: am thank you for giving me a break. You held 25 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: down the fort beautifully, Bows. But um, yes, I had 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: to put the pedal to the metal and really focus 27 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: on getting my book done. I'm still working on the 28 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: Yahoo Years, but I've made real progress, So thank you 29 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: for giving me some time to focus on that. But 30 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: I'm super jazz to be here today because this is 31 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: an episode we've been talking about for some time. I 32 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: don't know about you, Bows, but I would hate to 33 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: be an incoming college pressing right now, wouldn't you? True? True? 34 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: And we're not sure that we'd want to be the 35 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: university president either. The coronavirus has the nation's colleges and 36 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: universities in financial crisis, a lot of anxiety about the 37 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: upcome fall semester for both students and parents. The next 38 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: casualty of the pandemic could be college football. Families still 39 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: face pricey tuition bills and are now rethinking their college plans. 40 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: It has been such a nightmare. Before we introduce our guests, 41 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: we should give a little preview and say we tapped 42 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: the presidents of our respective alma Maters. By the way, 43 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: I graduated in seventy nine, Bows, you graduated in ninety nine. 44 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: I wasn't going to mention it, but hey, age is 45 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: just you know, here we are and mine is unlisted. Um, 46 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: so why don't you introduce your special guest, Bows? Yes, 47 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Well, I'm I'm very very excited about 48 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: this episode because Michael Roth, who is the current president 49 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: of Western University, is joining us today and I'm super 50 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: jazz to have the new president of the University of Virginia, 51 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: Jim Ryan, Hey, thanks for having me. Well, I think 52 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: both of you have had such fascinating lives, and I 53 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: think I speak on behalf of a lot of people 54 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: who are involved with Wesleyan or uv A how we 55 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: feel really lucky to have you both in academia. I 56 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: find it so interesting that you're both first generation college students. Um. 57 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: But you know, I've been thinking a lot about how 58 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: we're taught history and how history has really warped our 59 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: perspective on so many events. And Jim, of course, I've 60 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: been writing my own book, and I've just finished writing 61 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,119 Speaker 1: about the Unite the Right rally and the fact that 62 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: for so long people really didn't understand the Civil War 63 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: or the lost Cause and narrative, or what Confederate statues 64 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: stood for and when they were erected and what the 65 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: reasoning behind them and other Confederate iconography and gosh, you 66 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: you both are so interested in education. What what do 67 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: you think about that? I mean, do you think that 68 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: that's responsible for a lot of the intolerance and narrow 69 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: own minded attitudes towards this current reckoning we're witnessing. Well, 70 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: I'll I'll jump in first, if Jim, if that's all right. 71 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: I think that the the reckoning is due mostly to 72 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: the persistence of racist depression, and that that oppression continues 73 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: to um survive despite what seems to be the good 74 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: intentions of many people who don't consider themselves racist, because 75 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: of these narratives of the past that have become part 76 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: of uh, what we believe are this are settled truths. 77 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: And I think some of the controversy we see today 78 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: around history textbooks, around the project, the kind of vehemence 79 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: about that is that these is historical research, certainly not 80 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: perfect research, but it's an intervention of thoughtful intervention in 81 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: in American history that shakes up the the stories, the 82 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: histories we've been led to believe are foundational and that's 83 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: what good historians do, and I think that sixty nine 84 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: project is extraordinarily worthwhile. But I think when people have 85 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: their founding stories shaken, sometimes they are say, they say, 86 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: thank you, my goodness, now I see more of the 87 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: way the world is. But most of the time they 88 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: get very angry, especially if that foundational story justified their 89 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: own position in the world, even if it's not that elevated, 90 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: it's more elevated than the object of their racist scorn, 91 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: and so they are very can be very angry to 92 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: see that UM that those foundational stories or myths question 93 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: M Jim, what about you? But I would add to that, 94 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: I agree with that entirely. What I would add is 95 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: I do think that a lot of the sort of 96 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: head scratching when someone um uses the term structural racism, 97 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: for example, is due to a lack of knowledge of history, 98 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: not just around the founding but twentieth century history. I mean. 99 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: The other piece of this is that there's often this 100 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: assumption that UM, well, that happened two hundred three, four 101 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: hundred years ago. But there are so many elements to 102 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: UM modern history that if you understood them, you would 103 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: understand why the world looks the way it does today. 104 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: And not just not just understanding um, what happened during 105 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: the Jim Crow era and the propagation of the myth 106 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: of the Lost Cause UM, but basic things like redlining 107 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: UM or how long it took between the time that 108 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: Brown versus Board of Education was decided and there were 109 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: actual efforts to integrate the schools, and then how short 110 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: lived those efforts were. Right. I mean I I spent 111 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: an awful lot of time. I taught a course on 112 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: on um law and education, and spent an awful lot 113 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: of time on history that law students and education school 114 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: students just never had. I mean the number of students 115 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: who come up to me after a class and say, 116 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: how come I've never heard of redlining UM? Or how 117 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: come I've never heard of Militant versus Bradley, which was 118 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: a decision that prohibited um bussing across school district lines, 119 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: which basically killed school integration in nineteen seventy four, maybe 120 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: five years after the court finally got serious about it. 121 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it is this sense that oh, well, these 122 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: you know, bad things happen. No, I mean this is 123 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: part of a pattern that you can see in terms 124 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: of how this country has dealt with issues of race 125 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: and how it's treated people of color, and a lack 126 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: of that history I think helps explain a lack of empathy. 127 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: Does that mean is that being fixed though, you guys? 128 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that the way kids are 129 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: being taught history? I mean, Bose, I don't know about you, 130 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: but I feel like you know, I was. I went 131 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: to public school in northern Virginia, and I feel a 132 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: lot of the history that I learned was, you know, 133 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: adhered to a specific narrative that didn't entertain so many 134 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: of these concepts. Is that changing? You know? My daughters 135 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: learned from Howard's in UH, which is a very different 136 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: way UH to look at history. Do you find that 137 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: that's spreading across the country for young people so we 138 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: won't have this deeply entrenched misunderstanding or this idea that 139 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: of American exceptionalism when it wasn't exceptional. I mean, I 140 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: think it's changing in in parts of the country and 141 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: not so much in others. I mean, the basic fact 142 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: about the US education system is that there isn't one there, 143 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, thirteen thousand education systems because there are that 144 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: many are a little bit more UM school districts. So 145 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: in some places, um, yeah, there's a fuller telling of 146 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: us history, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and 147 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: in other places, I don't think. So. What about you, Michael, Yeah, 148 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: I think that Jim is exactly right that it really 149 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: depends on where you go to school, one of the 150 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: resources are used there. But I also want to question 151 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: us against thinking this what we're learning now is like 152 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: we finally now we have the truth. This history is 153 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: always being revised, and I don't think um, the historical 154 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: narratives we've been taught fully justify UM being comfortable with 155 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: injustice or a lack of empathy. I think what's really 156 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: important is that uh, young people, whether they're kith you 157 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: twelve system or in college, learn to live with the 158 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: idea that they can make things better UM, and that 159 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: they can learn a variety of perspectives on how things 160 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: got unacceptable now and then acquire a variety of tools 161 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: to address those things in the future. What I do 162 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: worry about sometimes is that people say, well, I believe 163 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: this kind of story, and my friends and my group, 164 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: my comrades, my sisters and brothers, they believe this story, 165 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: and we'll fight for these things, and you guys fight 166 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: for those other things, and they don't. Sometimes are not 167 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: encouraged to actually listen to one another. So I think 168 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: that one of the important things to do is not 169 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: to let young people think now they have the truth, 170 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: but to let young people learn how to conduct inquiry, 171 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: to listen to other people, to discover what they might 172 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: learn more about, what they what false which they might 173 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: no longer believe, and what other truths other people might 174 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: have for them. And that's a hard thing. I mean, 175 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: people like many people like certainty. But I think you 176 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: can cultivate an openness to ambiguity and inquiry with young people, 177 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: um so that they're more likely to listen to people 178 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: who disagree with them even when they get older. We're 179 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break, but when we come back, 180 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 1: a snapshot of what going back to campus might look like. 181 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: This COVID fall that's in just a moment. Whether your 182 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: event needed one room or an entire conference center, hoppin 183 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: has revolutionized the way people come together. 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That's O T T 201 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: e R dot Ai. The moment you realized you were 202 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: mistaking your kids for co workers? Okay, team, I'm taking 203 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: my fifteen Now. What was the moment you knew it 204 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: was time to get back to work? Let's drop it 205 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: up at Career Builder are simple, customizable search tool lets 206 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: you search for part time, full time, and even work 207 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: from home jobs so you can find a job that 208 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: fits your lifestyle. Get started now at career builder dot com. 209 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows 210 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: and today we're talking about the future of education with 211 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: the presence of our alma maters, Michael Roth of Western 212 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: University in Connecticut and Jim Ryan from the University of Virginia. 213 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: Let's get back to it. I know that you both 214 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: have you plans for what the fall will look like, 215 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: but can you tell us a little bit about, you know, 216 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: the tough decisions that you're making, uh, and what is 217 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: influencing those decisions? Also ahead, Michael, you can start. Thanks 218 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: a lot, buddy, I'm hoping to so it's it's it 219 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: is a very challenging time. I mean, obviously we started 220 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: our planning you know, right, really won't We sent kids 221 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: home in mid March like many other schools, and it 222 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: was extraordinary. Um. Ever since then, we've been trying to 223 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: figure out what are the parameters for us to be 224 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: able to bring students back safely in the fall? Can 225 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: we can we do that successfully? And for us, the 226 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: question was we believe in in person education it can 227 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: be complimented by online education. You can there are great 228 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: examples of hybrid things I teach online. I'm teaching right 229 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: now online actually all over the world, UM and and so, 230 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: so we wanted to make sure that we could reduce 231 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: the risks to our students, faculty, and staff sufficiently that 232 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: that the environment would be used this phrase safe enough. 233 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: When I wrote about safe enough spaces, I was really 234 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: thinking about free speech. But now we're thinking about not 235 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: zero risk to everybody, because that there is no place 236 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: in America where you can have a zero risk, but 237 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: where we can practice harm reduction with cooperation from our students, 238 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: faculty and staff and UM and that we will we 239 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: will respond to the the data that we get from 240 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: the public health authorities and the government and see if 241 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: we did not feel that we could conduct in person 242 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: classes safely, we wouldn't conduct them. UM and So what 243 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: we're doing is creating environments where everyone will be six 244 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: ft apart, where everyone in public we wear masks, where 245 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: there will be lots of hygiene practice, and you know, 246 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: lots of things that just their common sense right, the 247 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: question everyone asks and they should ask, and I ask 248 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: myself this all hours of the day and night. Will 249 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: the students cooperate? And you know, well, we've all seen 250 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: the pictures of young people partying on the beach or 251 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: in a bar. And and we all, we all know 252 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: what college students like to do. What we're trying to do, 253 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: and I would imagine this is true of many schools, 254 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: is to appeal not to our students desire to obey authority, 255 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: because there is none I'm desired for that, but to 256 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: their spirit of community, which is the incredibly powerful um. 257 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: And we are working with the student leaders to create 258 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: an environment where if Bose forgets her masks, somebody says, here, 259 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: here's a mask, put a mask on. Just like you know, 260 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: when I was a a student at wesleyand if somebody lit 261 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: up a cigarette in the classroom and no problem, the 262 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: teacher might bum one from you. Today, if someone lit 263 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: up a cigarette in the dining hall, another student would 264 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: come over and say, hey, put that out. You know 265 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: that they would intervene with one another to create an 266 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: environment that's safe. In our case, we are not just 267 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: depending on that. We're testing everybody twice a week. Um, 268 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: we have taken over a hotel. So if we need 269 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: to isolate people, we can isolate them, we can get 270 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: and still have them in school. Uh. So we're doing 271 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: all kinds of things. So when there are positive cases, 272 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: we take them out of a chain of transmission and 273 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: so we don't have a explosion of cases. Will have 274 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: isolated cases. We hope then we can then quarantine and 275 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: get people back into the system UM and all that 276 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: depends on very good testing, very good support of isolation 277 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: and contact tracing, and then the community spirit of the students, 278 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: faculty and staff. Jim, how it sounds to me like 279 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: UVA is kind of following a similar path as Wesleyan. 280 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: But you know, as I look at u V A 281 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 1: has sixteen thousand, seven hundred and seventy seven undergraduate students. 282 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: Wesleyan has three thousand nine. I'm not sure if those 283 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: are exactly correct numbers, but you get the picture. So, Jim, 284 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: tell us about your plans. Yeah, we've been thinking about, well, 285 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: why bring students back? Uh, And you know, our mission 286 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: is as a research university is to educate our students, UM, 287 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,479 Speaker 1: conduct research, and we have a health center and provide 288 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: medical care. All of those things are better done in person. 289 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: So we from the very beginning, meaning in March, after 290 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: we ask students to UM to return home, started thinking about, okay, 291 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: how can we do this? In a way that's reasonably 292 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: safe to students, faculty, staff, and the broader community, because 293 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: Charlottesville is sort of a classic college town UM, and 294 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: that's what we've been working on ever since. So we 295 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,239 Speaker 1: have identified a number of criteria that we need to 296 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: meet in order to open. Our plan is to have 297 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: students back at the end of August UM and following 298 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: a lot of the same protocols that Michael is talking 299 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: about with respect to UM testing and social distancing UM, 300 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: and also involving student leaders and helping us figure out 301 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: how to create a norm around UM, our campaign around 302 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: shared norms and appealing, as Michael says, UM, both the 303 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: sense of community but also to the sense that this 304 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: is not necessarily about protecting yourself, it's about protecting others 305 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 1: around you. That all said, UM, we're also keeping a 306 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: close eye on the progression of the virus UM and 307 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: the reality is that things look worse today than they 308 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: did in mid June when we announced our plan. And 309 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: when we announced our plan we said, obviously all of 310 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: this is contingent on where we are at the end 311 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: of August UM and right now, the trends nationally UM 312 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: and in Virginia and locally are not going in the 313 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: direction that we would like to see UM, So we're 314 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: keeping a close eye on that and again going back 315 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: to these gating criteria, and if they're not met, we're 316 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: not going to be able to invite students back. We 317 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: also have a number of criteria for what we would 318 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: do to ramp down or shut down, and one of 319 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: them is going to be around student behavior. So I 320 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: think we're asking all students to agree to abide by 321 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: these protocols UM, but we know there will be some 322 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: that don't comply and they will be subject to UM 323 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: disciplinary proceedings. But if it gets to the point where 324 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: there's an awful lot of non compliance, we need to 325 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: take that into account in terms of whether we can 326 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: actually continue with the continue with the semester, and we 327 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: need to let students know that that's actually going to 328 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: be a factor and whether we have to ask students 329 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: to return home. We're gonna take a quick break, but 330 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: when we come back, is it time to reinvent the 331 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: entire higher education system? The university presidents answered that and 332 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: more in just a moment. 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You're listening to back 377 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: to This with Katie and Bows and we're talking about 378 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: the future of higher education with UVA President Jim Ryan 379 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: and Wesleyan University President Michael Roth. You know, I had, 380 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: of course the fortunate benefit of going away to college, 381 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: right I was in Callida Springs, Colorado, which is where 382 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: home was, went to Wesleyan in Connecticut, UM and the 383 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: experience of college was of course about the education, but 384 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: so much more to write, the community, the people I 385 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: was around, the interactions I had all over and it 386 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: felt like that all encapsulated the value right to me 387 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: of what the college experience was like. So, you know, 388 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: even in light of that, thinking about what the differences 389 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: is for these students who are going to come back, 390 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: potentially come back, maybe not come back after Thanksgiving or 391 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: you know, depending on your plan um that zoom classes 392 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: maybe don't feel like enough if I'm not on campus, 393 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: stuff of not getting all the extra things that come 394 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: with what the cost of college looks like, is it 395 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: is it even worth it? I mean, we're we are 396 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: talking about a luxury also right. I mean even for 397 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: Michael at Wesleyan. Right, I think at this point tuition 398 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: is about seventy five seventy six thousand dollars a year 399 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: with room in board and Jim, I think it's it's 400 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: just about seventeen or eighteen thousand, right if you're if 401 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: you're in state, just for tuition and for out of 402 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: state we should add Jim, it's worth yeah. Yeah, so 403 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: I mean these are these are luxury. Yeah. So it's 404 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: a big luxury. Um. What do you think about that? 405 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: What about the response to students or parents who feel like, 406 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, the virtual version perhaps doesn't match the sticker price. 407 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: It's an interesting case in our case. You know, almost 408 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: half of the students are on significant financial aid and 409 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: now the average grant, no loans or forty dollars for students. 410 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: So um. So you know that that the people who 411 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: can't afford to pay by the formulas that the government 412 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: relies um, uh, they don't pay. And so you know 413 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: there's a significant percentage of students who don't pay anything 414 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: for room and board or tuition. What strikes me, and 415 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: I must say, I'm I'm surprised by this. I don't 416 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: know if Jim has the same experience. Um, we expected 417 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: more students. Actually just say in these conditions, I'm not 418 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: coming back to campus. Um, But in fact we have. 419 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: We have more students than we expected. Who are who 420 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: They're so eager to be together, even if they have 421 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: to wear a mask, even if they have to be 422 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: at some distance from each other. Um that they they 423 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: they they want to be on campus. They want to 424 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: feel connected to people their age who are studying. And 425 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: I think we've all had experience like this. We would 426 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: say in the abstract, I would never want to do that. 427 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: I would never do that. But when you when your choices, city, 428 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,239 Speaker 1: I'm in my basement talking to you, my choice is 429 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: I'll see you outside. We can talk at a distance, 430 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: we can go for a walk, we can we could 431 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: have a meal at some that's actually becomes very very precious. 432 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: And the proof is our students are voting with their feet. 433 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: They really want to come back to campus work seeing 434 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: the same thing. Um, it will be different, I mean, 435 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: and we we've been saying this over and again and 436 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: now I mean it's obvious the the fall semester is 437 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: not going to k much like a normal semester. But 438 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: I think students are eager to see each other and 439 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: as Michael says, UM be in each other's company. Um, 440 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: And even if it's under different conditions, there's something incredibly 441 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: powerful about that. M hmm. How big financial hit is 442 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: this going to be for both of you? You know, um, 443 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: international students who often pay full freight are going to 444 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: have problems coming to school. I think you haven't gotten 445 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: much in federal support. Without getting too much into the weeds, um, 446 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: you know, how tough is this going to be for 447 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: your respective institutions? And might this be a time to 448 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: re calibrate how we think about higher education with this? 449 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: You know, so many kids drowning in student debt. And 450 00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, Michael Dollars, I knew you were saying 451 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people are on financial aid, but it 452 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: just seems insane to me. And by the way, obviously 453 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: it's all schools. I mean, so many schools that aren't 454 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: that are private and even public universities. And you look 455 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: at the price of kindergarten these days, and these private 456 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: schools in New York City, it is insane and it 457 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: keeps going up and up and up. So I guess 458 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: my question is two parts how how big a challenge 459 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: is this going to be for your solvency? And is 460 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: it time to rethink how college works? Michael go in 461 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: thirty seconds, just kidding. So, so the the the the 462 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: hit on the economically is really significant, and it's you know, 463 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: if you have dorms, UM and you and you don't 464 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: rent them out to anyone. Let's say you're not opening, 465 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: that's you still have all the costs associated with having 466 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: your dorms, but you you don't have any revenue associate 467 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: So that that that's a very significant hit. Um. We 468 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: have always been very conservative in our budgeting. Everybody is 469 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: in a pay freeze. At Wesleyan, I took a big 470 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: pay cut. Other people cut their salaries. You know, we're 471 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: figuring out how to preserve jobs um all at the 472 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: same time, UM trimming all extra budgets. Uh. Is it 473 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: time to rethink? People have been rethinking them the higher 474 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: education finances for a long time. The fact is is 475 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: I think Cappy Hill wants to use president of Vassar 476 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: and the economist of education. She said, as long as 477 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: as long as Katie comes along and says, I'm willing 478 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: to spend whatever it takes for my daughter or my 479 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: niece to get the very best education. As long as 480 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: people say that in America, and they say it every day, 481 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: the price will keep going up. Um. And we can 482 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: deliver at scale and on LiLine education. That's okay, um. 483 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: And but it's what people if. If you want, so 484 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: what we're giving online classes of Wesley and I'm saying, 485 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure you right now, it's not any cheaper to 486 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: give it online. You're still paying the faculty, you're doing 487 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: small classes, you're having intense discussions. Um. The introduction of 488 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: technology into higher education is famously not reduced the cost 489 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: of producing the educational experience. It's more like going to 490 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: the dentist. It's not less expensive because there's more technology, 491 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: it's just a lot better. And I think the experience 492 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: for our students now, the wrap around experience that our 493 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: students expect, from first rate athletics to first rate psyclotherapy, UM. 494 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: Great classes combined with hundreds of clubs. This kind of 495 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: full spot experience is what people are demanding to pay for. 496 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: And half of our students can't pay, so we have 497 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: to raise money to support their financial aid. It is 498 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: a model under great duress. But I think it also 499 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: is a model that produces extraordinary experiences for undergraduates, extraordinary research, 500 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: and great technological development. So I don't think it's going 501 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: to disappear, even if it's under duress. Right, what about you, Jim, 502 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: do you I mean, I'm sure you've been asking yourself 503 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: yourself a lot of these questions endowments or down right, 504 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: and UM, you know it's a really really challenging time. Yeah, 505 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: I mean it would be challenging for us UM financially 506 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: for the reasons that Michael pointed out. We're also facing 507 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: loss of revenue in athletics as well in football in 508 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: particular UM. And then assuming that the season continues, which 509 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: is what the plan is now, UM stadiums won't be 510 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: UM won't be nearly full UM, but UM, you know, 511 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: will will weather that part of it. The piece of 512 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: that I worry the most about is the impact on 513 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: our employees UM and the financial hit that UM that 514 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: that they might be facing. And so, like Michael, you know, 515 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: we're trying to figure out how we can make sure 516 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: UM to preserve as much job continuity as we can. 517 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: That's when there's a narrative out there that schools are 518 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: making these decisions based on finances, and some of them 519 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: may have to because it's an existential crisis. But for us, 520 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,719 Speaker 1: you know, this is just one of the risks that 521 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: we think about, is the risk to our employees. UM 522 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: if students are not are not bad UM in terms 523 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 1: of the cost you know, I think what this UM, 524 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: the whole episode is going to cause people to do, 525 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: and it's a good thing to do, is to really 526 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: UM examine whether they're getting good value for the increasingly 527 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: large investment that they're making. Right So, there are a 528 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: lot of top schools like Wesleyan UM and U v a. 529 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: M have generous financial aid. Pole Seas were one of 530 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: only two public universities in the country that guarantees to 531 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: meet UM all financial needs. UM. That's an expensive model. 532 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: But I think for some schools UM, you know, there 533 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: will be an increasing assessment that it is actually not 534 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: worth it UM. And I think this whole episode is 535 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: going to accelerate the trend of some schools UM no 536 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: longer existing because the value proposition isn't there and the 537 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: value proposition, to go back to something Bose was saying, 538 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: is is is beyond is the experience beyond just the classes? 539 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: Is the experience of what happens when you're on campus 540 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: with other students UM. And if that experience is not 541 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: rich enough, is not valuable enough, why not take classes online? Right? 542 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: You would be it would be more convenient and it 543 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: would be cheaper for you to do so if you 544 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: could live at home UM and just take classes online. 545 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: I was talking to someone who said, uh, that vocational 546 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: almost a vocational type education was going to be emphasized 547 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: more because on top of the pandemic, now you have, 548 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, this very very tough economy that college graduates 549 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: are going into. And as a liberal arts major myself 550 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: an American Studies major at u v A, I just 551 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: I wonder both of you if if you're going to 552 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 1: have to start teaching classes where skills will be paramount 553 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 1: so when people graduate they can actually really get a job. 554 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: Is that is that a crazy idea? Is? Do you 555 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: agree with that? Michael I? I don't. I think the 556 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: same things were said in the Great Recession, UM that 557 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: schools were going to disappear, and that liberal arts disappear, 558 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: and that now we have micro degrees and badges, and 559 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: there's some of that, to be sure, and most you know, 560 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: great proportion of the student debt is actually for schools 561 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: that claimed to to school skills um and and just 562 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: the preditory lenders UM. So I don't think the way 563 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: to prepare students for successful life after college is to 564 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 1: be increasingly narrow because the economy is changing so rapidly 565 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: that you need to be able to continue to learn, 566 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: and we have to show students how they can use 567 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: what they learn in different kinds of settings, not just 568 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: in the classroom, in real world settings. I do think 569 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: that the the the pressure on some schools to change 570 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: their calendars because of the pandemic um it can lead 571 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: to even more substantial changes. I don't think there's any 572 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,319 Speaker 1: reason for students to go to school for eight semesters. 573 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: I think that's just the convention that we've had for 574 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: a long time, but there's no educational reason for it. 575 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: We have post hoc justifications, but um the best way 576 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: we found in West need to reduce the price of 577 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: education is to compress it into three years instead of 578 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: four same number of courses. You have less of that experience, 579 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: but you actually pay less uh off the top, and 580 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: I think there are a lot would be more experiments 581 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: like that, where students may go to community college for 582 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: two years and then go to one school for one 583 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: year or UM finding ways to give people this experience. 584 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: It's so empowering economically as well as culturally, but they 585 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: don't perhaps need to have that for eight semesters spread 586 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: over four years. Yeah. Well, there is so much changing 587 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: in the world. And what do you think about what 588 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 1: students are thinking right now about you know, the racial 589 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: unrest that is happening in our country. Have you heard 590 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 1: from them, you know, both for you and and Jim, 591 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: and what are their thoughts and how are you incorporating 592 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: that into some of what you're thinking for the future. Jim, 593 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: do you want to go first on this one? So 594 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: I'm happy to start. UM. I've been really impressed by 595 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 1: how engaged our students are both at the UM sort 596 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: of across the country with respect to protests, but also 597 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: focusing on you be a UM. And as I was 598 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: saying earlier UM about UM what happened after the Unite 599 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: the Right rally, I think you're seeing the same thing again, 600 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: which is that there's an opportunity UM for change and 601 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: students are helping drive that. And so we've put together 602 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: small racial Equity task Force to go through the various petitions, suggestions, 603 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: and demands that have been made to UVA on behalf 604 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: of mostly students but sometimes faculty, staff and alumni over 605 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: the last twenty five years, UM and come forward with 606 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: a set of concrete and prioritize recommendations for what uv 607 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: A can do in this moment. And it does feel 608 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: like an opportunity to have a reckoning over issues of 609 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 1: race that have been longstanding and only sporadically attended to. 610 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So at Wesleyan we've had some are kinds 611 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: of conversations to which Jim just described. We also started 612 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 1: UH in the late fall something something called Engage, where 613 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,439 Speaker 1: along with almost three other schools in the country, are 614 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: trying to stimulate participation in the electoral system. And I 615 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,240 Speaker 1: think our students should be paying attention to their towns, 616 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,720 Speaker 1: so their regions, to their states, and to the federal government. 617 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,399 Speaker 1: And so it's not my business to tell them how 618 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: to engage, but it is my business to try to 619 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: find ways for them to be engaged. And then when 620 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: the pandemic hit, I thought all these plans for them 621 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: going door to door getting petitions inside had all gone 622 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: out the window. But of course, with the black Lives 623 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: Matter protest clearly the energy and creativity of young people 624 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: to demand change at their at their town level, at 625 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: their state, at the federal government level, that this is 626 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 1: this is a moment that is so crucial for the 627 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: United States, I believe, and so I am trying it's 628 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: best I can to facilitate their involvement because I think 629 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: we are desperate for their energy and creativity at this 630 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: moment in in the nation's history. Jim Ryan and Michael 631 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: Roth has been a real pleasure talking to both of you, 632 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: and I just want to say good luck this fall. Uh, 633 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 1: We'll be thinking about you guys and pulling for you 634 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: and hoping that that things things aren't as hard as 635 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: they seem right now and it all works out and 636 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: that and that this sense of community will prevail. You've 637 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: been listening to Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University, and 638 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: Jim Ryan, President of the University of Virginia, and that 639 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: does it for this week's episode of Back to Biz 640 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: with Katie and Bows. We've talked to so many interesting 641 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: people and if you haven't been able to listen to 642 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: all of them, go on and subscribe on Apple podcast, 643 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you listen to 644 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: your favorite shows, and as always, you can keep up 645 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: with me and Bows beyond the podcast by finding and 646 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: following us on our social media channels, and make sure 647 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 1: you subscribe to the Next Question podcast B two Until 648 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,439 Speaker 1: We Meet Again. I'm Katie Curry and I'm Bozma St. 649 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. 650 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 1: Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production 651 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive 652 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,800 Speaker 1: producers are Katie Currik, Bozma St John, and Courtney Litz. 653 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are 654 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: Derek Clements, Eliza Costas and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derek 655 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derek Clements. Special thanks 656 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go 657 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: to Katie Kirk dot com. You can also follow Katie 658 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: Kirk and Bosmas st John on Twitter and Instagram. For 659 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,439 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 660 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 661 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: favorite shows. My name is Hannah, I'm Dan, I'm Ben 662 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: and we are Group Love If you're dealing with stress 663 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: or anxiety, or just need some help. Cal Hope is 664 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: here for all Californians with free mental health resources to 665 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: help you navigate this uncertain time. 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