1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should Know, a production of My 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles w Chuco Bryant, and 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: there's a Jerry over there. Stuff you should know. Actually 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: had to program that was real, because a real real frog. 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: So we're in our nice quiet room here. It's so 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: nice to feel. The walls are dark and padded, ensconced 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: in love, and our chairs are comfy. It doesn't smell 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: that much. Jerry's food is in the stinky as usual. Actually, 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: it's funny you stayed in here when I want to 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: go get a drink to come back. Its smells pretty 12 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: pollock paneerie, like you can just think it is. I'm 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: just used to it. It's a good smell. And like 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: a restaurant or your dining room at your home or 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: kitchen in the studio, it's a weird smell. You know 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: what kind of food. Jerry hates American food? I know 17 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: she hates American food. She does, man, she's always eaten 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: great food from all over the World's good job. Uh so, Chuck. Yes, 19 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 1: we're talking today about psychology, but not the head shrinking 20 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: more the head, expanding variety of psychology. Shrink that head, 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: blow it up, because psychology over the years has really 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: kind of increased its scope further and further out of 23 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: your noggin. Yeah. It kind of started out very focused 24 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: on the noggin, very and then it was like, well, 25 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: truth be told, your mom has a lot to do 26 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: with this stuff too, and your friends going to come 27 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: out and say it, and your dad, they really screwed 28 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: you up. And then with this stuff with environmental psychology 29 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: has really expanded on a macro level. Yeah, because it's 30 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: saying and not only are you all screwed up by 31 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: yourself and your friends and family are screwing you up, 32 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: the physical spaces that you exist in can screw you up, 33 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: or the other side is great to make you happier, 34 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: more relaxed, um less stressed out. And we environmental psychologists 35 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: is what they started to call themselves, UM, are going 36 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: to figure out exactly the how, what, who, why, when, where, 37 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: the who's it, the any who, all of it to 38 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: explain how our environments affect us. And then while we're 39 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: at it, let's just throw in the whole kitchen sink. 40 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: We're gonna do it the other way to we're going 41 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: to figure out how humans affect the environment and how 42 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: we can make humans better stewards of the environment. But 43 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: for now, we're going to go take a nap because 44 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: this is a lot. Yeah, but all of this through 45 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: the lens of psychology, which, like I read this stuff, 46 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: I think it's really cool and interesting, and I think 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: you do too initially, but it seems to break down 48 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: a little bit scientifically. Uh and my whole jam. When 49 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: I walked in, I was like, I think this is 50 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: really neat, Like maybe they just shouldn't call it science 51 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: and they should just say like, hey, let's uh, let's 52 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: look at how a grocery store can best be planned out, um, 53 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: and touch on some psychology, but like, don't ask me 54 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: to prove it with studies that can be replicated. So 55 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: there are a lot of studies about this stuff. They're legitimate, 56 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: you know, um, peer reviewed studies, but they're they're real 57 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: disparate and not necessarily related. And I think what you're 58 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: talking about is environmental psychology tries to kind of bring 59 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: them all together and say this is our jam, and 60 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: that that the thing. The pieces don't necessarily connect yet 61 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: like you would think they would from you know, looking 62 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: on the outside, seeing that there's a whole field of 63 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: psychology dedicated to studying this is it. Hey, I want 64 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: to be paid a lot of money to consult on 65 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: a new shopping mall. I I maybe so, but I 66 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: honestly don't know what what the what the drive is? 67 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's interesting stuff though, oh yeah it's 68 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: but it's famously interesting. Everybody loves environmental psychology, even if 69 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: you don't know the name of it. And people have 70 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: understood too that, like, our environments do affect us for 71 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: way longer than environmental psychology has been around. There's a 72 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: like every history of environmental psychology that you'll read will 73 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: give this example of Marco Polo reporting in the thirteenth century. 74 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: He came across a ruler in China who was curious 75 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: about why some neighboring state or kingdom was always like 76 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: super hostile, not only with other kingdoms, but within the 77 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: kingdom themselves. So he ordered an experiment done where he 78 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: had soil brought in from that kingdom placed under the 79 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: chairs of some people, and all the people started arguing. 80 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: So he concluded it must be in the soil, which 81 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: is I guess an early scientific experiment. He never explained 82 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 1: what was in the soil. Maybe ghosts. Yeah, right, should 83 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: we talk about Churchill since we're talking about history, Yeah, 84 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: we gotta kind of leap forward from the thirteenth century. Yeah. 85 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: Churchill very famously said we shape our buildings and later 86 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: they shape us belch cigar toke Uh. And he very 87 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: famously when World War two bombed out the Parliament building, 88 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: he said, rebuild it just as it was, and everyone 89 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: else like, hey, governor, shouldn't it be a bit bigger? No? Uh, 90 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: they had the chance to give everyone a little more space, 91 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: and no, do it exactly like it was. Uh. He 92 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: wanted to create a sense of urgency, and he said 93 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: at critical votes and moments it would be filled beyond capacity, 94 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: with members spilling out into the aisles. Sarn a little 95 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: Sean Connery in there. I can't let it pass. In 96 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: his view, a sustainable, I'm sorry, shootable sense of crowd 97 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: and urgency. That's pretty good. Key do Roger Moore doing 98 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: Winston Churchill. No, I've never tried Roger Moore. Yeah, I've 99 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: never heard anybody do Roger Moore. That was pretty good. 100 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: So um so. Yeah, there's been this awareness that like 101 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: like Churchill says, we shape our buildings and later they 102 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: shape us. But it wasn't a field a part of 103 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: psychology until the late fifties early sixties. Um. And actually 104 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: you can trace it back to one group of people 105 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: at City University, New York, YEP led by what are 106 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: they the Fighting Manhattan Transfers. They have a great a 107 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: capella group. Um, they were all they're a bunch of Cooney's. 108 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: I'm not sure which one this was City Mary, New York, 109 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: Like you know, they're all over town. Oh I didn't 110 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: know that. Okay, well I'm not sure which one it 111 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: was either. But Harold Prashansky was the leader of this 112 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: group from CUNEY and they were a group of social 113 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: psychologists and some people at a hospital in New York. Uh, 114 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: we'll just say hospital because it's probably only one, like 115 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: there's only one QUNI. Um. They came to this group 116 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: and said, hey, we're trying to figure out how to 117 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: make our hospital rooms like way better for patients. He said, 118 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: we're from hospital, right, he said, okay, we're from un UM. 119 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: And and Harold Persanski is like, we have no idea 120 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: how to tell you how to do that? Yeah, So 121 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: he's he went ahead and founded environmental psychology, which which 122 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: seeks to do exactly that. Yeah, he wrote the book 123 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: on it, the first one that is I'm sure they're 124 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: a gazillion now, uh. In nineteen seventy environmental psychology Colon 125 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: manned and his physical setting and by man he means 126 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: person human. But it was nineteen seventy, so there were 127 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: only men that mattered in nineteen seventy. So he is 128 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: the father of environmental psychology. He's the father of lies. 129 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: You know what I think the deal is is so unwieldy, 130 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: and they're trying to corral this unwieldy thing because it's 131 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: nature and its design and its color, and it's fabrics 132 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: and it's people's brains and all right, So we're just 133 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: gonna gripe about it sporadically throughout the whole episode. So 134 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: the whole idea of prior to environmental psychology, um and 135 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: still is the case in a lot of in a 136 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: lot of cases, is if you're going to do an experiment, 137 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: they would bring you to a very um just plain 138 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: lab and their idea was like, let's strip away everything 139 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: so you're not influenced by anything. They would hose you 140 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: off exactly, delouse you, and you would be just sitting 141 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: in a white room with fluorescent bulbs buzzing above your 142 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: head and Bill Murrays zapping you whenever you gave a 143 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: wrong answer, and they're like, this is the way to 144 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: do it. But there are a couple of psychologists Um 145 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: Roger Barker and Kurt Lewin specifically, that said, um, you 146 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: know what, that's making things worse. Stripping the world away 147 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: and putting people in the sterile environments like you're gonna 148 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: be confounding results just from the outset. It doesn't make 149 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: any sense in psychology psychologies. Other psychologists said, shut up, 150 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: be quiet, you two and they said, no, we won't. 151 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: We're going to go found environmental psychology along with Harold 152 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: Krushansky and the idea that you have to not only 153 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: study people in their natural setting to really understand what's 154 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: motivating their behavior, but also the idea that that natural 155 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: setting itself is is creating part of their behavior. You 156 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: can't you can't study that in the lab. So that's 157 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: one of the things that makes um environmental psychology unusual 158 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: is it's not meant to be conducted in the lab. 159 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: It's meant to be conducted in a real world study, 160 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: a real world setting. And the other thing about it 161 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: is it's multidiscipline area as well. Unwieldy. It is some 162 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: would say inclusive, but unwieldy also works as well. Yeah, 163 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: because what they're looking at is what they call uh 164 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,559 Speaker 1: molar units, which are very large scale. We're talking about communities, 165 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: neighbor hoods. Maybe your house, house or or room is 166 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: probably about the smallest thing you think, or or maybe 167 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: your personal space. They seem to have adopted that as well. Yeah, 168 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: it's all over the place. Uh, and it covers every 169 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: angle that you can think of in terms of how 170 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: you interact with your environment. UM. Like we said, like um, 171 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: spatial planning and lighting, economics, acoustics, color, empty space. Yeah, 172 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: imagine that that's a brain buster right there. It is UM. 173 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: And so when what they're studying, what environmental psychologists study, 174 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: or what they call transactions, And this has been a 175 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: particular bone in my craw. I've never once seen someone 176 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: concretely defined what a transaction is. I would guess that 177 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: it's a transaction. It's just how you transact and interact 178 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: with those things, right, but exactly how like a transaction 179 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: And I'm totally pulling this out of my key. Start, Well, 180 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: then you're an environmental problems. But a transaction might be 181 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: like when you walk into a room and sit down 182 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,719 Speaker 1: in a chair, that's probably a transaction with that room, right, 183 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: maybe why not? But my question also is like, Okay, 184 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: if you sit quietly in a room for an hour, 185 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: is that a transaction itself? Or is that hour made 186 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: up of much smaller transactions like you stirring in the 187 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: room because the concrete floor is making your butt fall asleep, 188 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: or you start to get scared because you hear a 189 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: weird noise, and like, all of the things that happened 190 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: over the hour, are those transactions or is the whole 191 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: thing a transaction. I've just never heard it concretely defined, 192 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: and it kind of drove me crazy because I really 193 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: looked for a solid definition of it. But just suffice 194 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,719 Speaker 1: to say that in the field of environmental psychology, will 195 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: they study your transactions, which means your interaction with the environment, 196 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: And hey, let's just go ahead and say it the 197 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: environment's interaction with you in return. That's right. I'm sorry, 198 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm glad you're crabby about one. And that's usually my role, 199 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm happy to take it over this time. 200 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: So where you first started seeing the impact of environmental 201 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: psychology was an architecture, and this has been going on 202 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: for decades basically, and it makes sense. This part makes 203 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: the most sense to me. Yeah, like when you transact 204 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: with a building and a lobby or an elevator or 205 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: a staircase, or an office or a or air wolf 206 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: or air wolf or the concierge desk in a hotel, 207 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: like all of this stuff has Oh, there's always been 208 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: a lot of thought, probably before they even called it 209 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: environmental psychology, like how do people interact with this when 210 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: you walk in? You want people to be uh, feel 211 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: good and understand where things are. Um, well, now there's 212 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: a balance that has to be struck. Though I don't 213 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: know if that actually did exist before environment I think 214 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: that may have been a contribution from the field. Yes, 215 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: I mean, yes, I'm sure there was some design or 216 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: something like that, but the the ideas what you just 217 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: said to have really been helped along by the field 218 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: of environments. Like you might be right, because that's what's 219 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: called bottom up, Like let's really think about how people 220 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: interact with this environment and whereas before it was topped down, like, 221 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: let's just build this beautiful building, and it turns out 222 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: it's really confusing, Yeah, um, because they didn't think about people, know, 223 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: and there were There are actually two big things that 224 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: happened in the sixties, well one in the sixties, one 225 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: in the early seventies that kind of said, oh wait, 226 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: our environments are physical spaces really do affect us and 227 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: they can have really negative effects to um. The first 228 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: one was the Kitty Genovase murder, which we covered, We 229 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: did a whole episode on there that was Yeah, but 230 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: the long story short, the popular conception is that, uh, 231 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: an entire apartment block of people um watched Kitty Genovese 232 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: be murdered publicly over the course of like an hour, 233 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: and nobody did anything, even though it's not fully true. 234 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: But reason that they didn't do anything because they were 235 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: all isolated from one another. They all figured that somebody 236 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: else was going to call their architecture messed with their 237 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: brains and made them less compassionate or um separate at least. Yeah, 238 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: then they would have been maybe if they lived out 239 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: in the country or something like that. That was the 240 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: big first one. Yeah, that which I don't even know 241 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: if we touched on that in the episode, did we? 242 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: I think maybe? If not, we just did, all right, 243 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: consider that a falloup. Uh. The other one was this 244 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: housing complex in St. Louis in two that was built 245 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: called Pruitt I Go and it was built in ninety 246 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: six hundred and seventy units in thirty three eleven story buildings. 247 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: It was a very big deal because it was touted 248 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: as being this progressive, really modern place for a housing project, 249 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: and people are gonna be living in this modern space 250 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: and it's gonna be amazing and that's going to make 251 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: a big difference in their lives. Yeah, it was. Actually 252 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: there was. I looked all over for the what magazine 253 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: it was, but some architectural magazine magazine named it the 254 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: best high apartment of the year while it was being designed. 255 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: And the idea was like, here, we're going to give 256 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: you this amazing place to live, low income, downtrodden St. 257 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: Louis people, and you are going to be able to 258 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: raise yourselves up out of poverty just by living in 259 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: a nice new this gift from the gods of architecture basically, 260 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: and the exact opposite happened that within sixteen years by two, 261 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: the Prude I Go Complex, thirty three eleven story buildings, 262 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: was raised to the ground and there became a really 263 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: really negative popular um idea about Prude I Go, and 264 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: that was that no matter what you did for poor 265 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: people and in this case read black people, they're going 266 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: to drag it down to their level. Because within that 267 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: sixteen years, Prude I Go became blighted by crime, vandalism, um, neglect, disrepair. Uh. 268 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: The police were afraid to go out there into the complex. 269 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: There was a sense of lawlessness, and so when it 270 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: got torn down, everybody said, yep, see, can't do anything 271 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: for those people. And then later on academics, including environmental psychologist, said, 272 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: wait a minute, I don't know that that's actually the case. 273 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: What if it was the actual buildings that were the problem. Yeah, 274 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: they came in and they called it, Uh, this is 275 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: dysfunctional architecture. And they said that you did this top 276 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: down thing. It built this beautiful building, but didn't think 277 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: about the people, this bottom up approach. You never thought 278 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: about the residents. Uh. And research later on. This is 279 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: where we get into a couple of other theories that 280 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: we've talked about. I know, we talked about the broken 281 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: windows theory, which basically is the idea that, um, you 282 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: need to go after the vandal or the person who 283 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: throws a brick through a window, even though that's low 284 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: hanging fruit. Uh legally speaking as far as cops go. Yeah, 285 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: so you need to go after those people because those 286 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: small things that happen will basically lead to larger things. 287 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: And that's what happened at Prutago. They were they never 288 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: changed out the burn light bulbs, they never fixed the 289 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: broken windows, And if you believe in the broken windows theory, 290 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 1: that's a pretty prime example of how something you can 291 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: get out of hand, right. Um. The other big theory 292 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: that kind of evolved to explain what happened at prut 293 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: Igo is called the defensible spaces theory, and that was 294 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: basically that the designer of this complex had failed to 295 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: delineate each unit from the other, so that really the 296 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: only thing that separated units were the thin interior walls. 297 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: Everything outside was just common public belonged to no one, 298 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: so it was totally ripe for abuse and um and 299 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: lawlessness and criminality, criminal behavior. Part of the other problem 300 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: with the design was at the common areas, the play areas, 301 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: we're all um uh, we're kind of like around corners 302 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: were out of view, so there was no way for 303 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: the community keep an eye on their kids or one another, 304 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: and so these became hotbeds for crime as well. And 305 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: inside and out right, wasn't the idea that they were 306 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 1: all identical, so there was no sense of individual ownership, 307 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: which can bring about pride. It was just here, you 308 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: live here, now, stay here, and that doesn't work with people. 309 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: Um and so environmental psychologists had this idea um afterwards, 310 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: as they were kind of thinking about all this stuff, 311 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: that well, maybe there's some easy things we can do, 312 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: like I don't know, asking residents what they want or 313 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: need out of a building while you're designing the building right, 314 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: or if something doesn't work out or is working out 315 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: okay and people are moving out, interview them then and say, hey, 316 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: what do you like about the place as you hate 317 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: and there's those are like you said, low hanging fruit. 318 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: But that's the kind of thing that actually and help 319 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: make a building successful and give people a sense of ownership. 320 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: And if you feel ownership over a place, you're gonna 321 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: tell somebody, hey, pick up that trash, that's my walkway, 322 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: you know, just throw your trash there. If that's really 323 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: kind of their walkway as much as it is yours, 324 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: maybe you don't feel quite as moved to say something 325 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: in that case. So just like think taking that stuff 326 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: into into account as far as environmental psychology is concerned, 327 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: helps explain how you can prompt someone to take ownership 328 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: of a place and therefore get more out of it, 329 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 1: but also take care of the place as well, which 330 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: is that bi directional reciprocal interaction with our physical environments. 331 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: That is like the basis of environmental psychology. All right, 332 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: let's take a break here, this is dense. Yeah, we'll 333 00:19:48,560 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: be back right after this. Well, now we're on the 334 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: road driving in your truck. Want to learn a thing 335 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: or two from Josh can chuck stuff you should know? 336 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: All right, all right, so let's talk about some of 337 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: these behaviors um as far as like fitting into a 338 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: space that have kind of popped up over the years. 339 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: There's one, two, three of these listed that make a 340 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: lot of sense to me. Yeah. The first one is territoriality. 341 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: And you just you put this together. You describe this 342 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: very plainly. Is like if you go into a coffee 343 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: shop and you put your bag down on a table 344 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: and then go over your coffee, or if you just 345 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: dress up your cubicle with dumb stuff, that's that's you 346 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: claiming your space, even if it's not your space, Like 347 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: your cubicle you're like, this is my backpack on this table, 348 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: don't sit there, Right, that's just territoriality. That's one way 349 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: that we behave because most places, most spaces are social 350 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: spaces are used by more than one person. Right. The 351 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: next one is crowding, which I think is super interesting 352 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: because crowding, uh is a result of density. But you 353 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: can have density without being crowded if you have smart design. 354 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: Like thousands and tens of thousands of people go through 355 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: a shopping mall every day, but you should never feel 356 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: crowded in a shopping mall because of the way they 357 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: have these things designed. Dude, it happens to me every time. 358 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 1: Do you feel crowded? It's just it's just a spectrum 359 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: of how soon starts. Really, every time I go to 360 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: a mall, you feel crowded. Yeah, And there's the opposite 361 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: of out should be right, I know, but it's me 362 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: Like I'm I mean, like really well designed malls, but 363 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: it's still me, right, still feel crowded. There's a period 364 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: where like the thing that you mean I would do 365 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: in the wintertime would be to go walk around the 366 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: mall because we were like a half a mile away 367 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: from it. So you mean Momo and I would go 368 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: walk around the mall. Oh, I thought you meant the 369 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: interior wall mall. Uh, mall walkers, not the mall. We 370 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: that's basically what we were doing. But we were just 371 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: killing time because I worked at the Gap for a 372 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: month and I didn't know that was the thing before 373 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: the before the stores opened, the mall was open, and 374 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: that's where you'll find, uh, some really fantastic jumpsuits walking 375 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: around and the exercise clothes. Yeah, and they'll have like 376 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: clubs and coffee clutches and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, 377 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: it's mall walkings of things. Okay, but you were on 378 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: the outside of the mall. No, No, we were inside. 379 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: We have a bag that Momo comes. Um. But so 380 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: we're walking around the inside just at night or whatever. 381 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: You know, the youngest ones, they're kind of so um. 382 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: But every time I'd just be like tense and just 383 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: feel crowded and like edgy and stressed out before them 384 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: all opened, Okay, I don't stop with the mall walking 385 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: thing has nothing to do with that. Alright, malls open, 386 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: mall's open, you're shopping, maybe even nighttime. Emma was there 387 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: and we're inside, okay, and there's no one wearing jump 388 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: and you're not old. But that was well, now we've 389 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: reached the end of the story. So you would just 390 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: get anxious, uh, despite the fact that they were purposely 391 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: designed to not feel crowded, right, And that's part of 392 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: the challenge of mall design is to to make it 393 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: so people like me can stand to stay there as 394 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: long as possible, because the longer you're there, the more 395 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: shopping you're gonna do. And but you want a bunch 396 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: of people. You don't want just one person at a 397 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: time going through the mall because of crowding. You want 398 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of people, so you want to juggle how 399 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 1: to get all those people in there shopping at the 400 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: same time without making one another feel crowded. How are 401 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: you at genuine crowd crowded things like sports games or concerts? 402 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: And it's about the same, really, I think. I think 403 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: because in the situation like that, I'm going into it 404 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: expecting it. Apparently it surprises me every time I'm at 405 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: a mall. Will you leave a concert early or wait 406 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: for people to file out a little bit before you, 407 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: or you in the middle of that like elbow to 408 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: elbow hit miss but to crutch scene. It changes from 409 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: from It depends on how you know, relaxed on feeling 410 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: and if like you know that they're gonna like play 411 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: the big song in the last song. Oh yeah, yeah. 412 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: Usually I don't like sitting around for the encore, but 413 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: if it's the you know, the song that I came 414 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: to see, I'll do it right. You're so you're at 415 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: the Who's the German Tech? No Group, Skinny Puppy, no 416 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: the So you're at a craft work show. I've actually 417 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: been to Seacraft, I know. And you're like, I really 418 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: want to leave, but they haven't played Liver Worst yet? 419 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: Which is the best song called liver Worst? I don't 420 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: think so maybe yeah, otivon they definitely do. Uh. We 421 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: saw them at the Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles. 422 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: It was amazing. I never went there, or or maybe 423 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: I did us an opera there. It would be a 424 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: good place for that. And we left early. Oh really, 425 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: you didn't wait for the encore? We saw Skinny Puppy too. 426 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: By the way, I think they're from Washington State, not Germany. 427 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: But we had to wait for their encore to see 428 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: like their big song Smothered. Hope they wait until the encore. 429 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: I know that they do that every single night. Sure, 430 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: even though it's Skinny Puppy and that's not really their thing, 431 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: they still do it, all right. So that's crowding you 432 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: all right, there's three of us in here. How do 433 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: you feel? I feel fine now. You guys make me 434 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: feel very relaxed. That's nice. So privacy is the last one, um, 435 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: and that's you know, people want a private space. Um. 436 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: But there's a subset of that called personal space, which 437 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: is not the same thing as privacy. Personal spaces what 438 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: do they define it as? The one and a half 439 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: to four ft around you in all directions? Right? There 440 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: was an anthropologist actually named Edward Hall who came up 441 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: with that. I'm big on personal space. One of my 442 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: big pet peeves is being an online for anything and 443 00:25:53,520 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: feelingline online different online is what you say in New York, Uh, 444 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: feeling someone like kicking my heel or breathing down my neck. 445 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: I'm always just like, just like You're not going to 446 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: get there any quicker by breathing on me. Dude, please 447 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: back off. Where are they frauderists? Have you ever considered 448 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: maybe you're being I'm not sure, subway creep, I don't know. 449 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: I had a situation a few weeks ago. Cheez, should 450 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: I even talk about this? Oh boy? I like where 451 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: this is going? All right, I'll go ahead. And I 452 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: was in a grocery store and I was really motoring 453 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: because I was just going to get a couple of 454 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: things and I want to get out of there. And 455 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: I went and I cut through the what usually is 456 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: the sandwich line, of which there was none at the 457 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: time the deli, Like yeah, but it's a little sort 458 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: of narrow space where you stand in line. It's like 459 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: roped off. And I kind of cut through there because 460 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: there was no one there. And this as this kid 461 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: was ducking under the little rope and I just sort 462 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: of shimmy by him and did one of those like whoa, 463 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: I went by the kid, You did a rick flair? 464 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: Think No. I didn't say a word, but came come 465 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: back five minutes later and this, uh, this kid's mother 466 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: like starts yelling at me that I pushed shoved her kid, 467 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: and I was like, first of all, I was like, 468 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: I sort of looked around, was like me, and she 469 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: was like, yes, she shoved my she shoved my kid, 470 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: or you shoved my kid. I was like, no, said 471 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't shove your kid, and she starts 472 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: she was like I saw it, and the kid was like, yeah, 473 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 1: you did. And I looked at him and I was like, 474 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: I didn't say it out loud, but I was like, 475 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: you liar, I did not touch you. And I started 476 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: again to say no, I didn't. I swear I did 477 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: not touch your kid. And she was really adamant, and 478 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: people started looking and I knew the only way out 479 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: of there was just too And I'm a I'm a 480 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: big justice guy, so this really was hard for me. 481 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: But just say, uh ma'am if I did, I'm really 482 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: really sorry. I have a small child. I was not 483 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: aware that I did, but I clearly did, and I'm 484 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: really sorry. And I was like, because I was waiting 485 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: for a cell phone to come out, you know, so 486 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: I was like, the only way out of here is 487 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: just lie and say yeah, up your kid and I'm sorry. 488 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: You're like, I I have a small child who mus 489 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: shove all the time and she doesn't tatle like your 490 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: little really upsetting because it was getting out of hand. 491 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: I was like, very upset for the rest of the night. 492 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: How are you feeling now recounting it. I didn't shove 493 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: that kid. I believe you did touch him. I'll bet 494 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: every single person listening believes you. Oh man, al right, 495 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: So where are we? Personal space? That's what I was 496 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: talking about. Yeah, I shove kids when they get in 497 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: my way, right exactly. So the upshot of all of 498 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: this everything we've talked about, the idea that you need 499 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: um space that is your own, that you can defend, 500 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,239 Speaker 1: and that you can consider um a place to have 501 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: privacy and to put your stuff, and um the idea 502 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: that high density of people in the wrong kind of 503 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: situation creates crowding. All this stuff contributes to the ultimate 504 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: goal one of the big goals of environmental psychology busices 505 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: to create put all this stuff together and create ideal 506 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: environments that's right, which is a balance of things, not 507 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: necessarily like just the biggest open place in the world. 508 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: Because people have to shop and people you have to 509 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: still have these other things that have to be accomplished. 510 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: But the quote here is where people feel self assured 511 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: and competent, where they can familiarize themselves with the environment 512 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: whilst being engaged with it. And there are four main 513 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: factors here to that basically say it's ideal or not. Unity. 514 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,239 Speaker 1: Basically things work well together. Self explanatory, like like the 515 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: dude saying that has rugg really tied the room together? Yeah, exactly. 516 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: Um legibility that a person can navigate that space without 517 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: getting lost. Very important complexity, uh that it's just complex 518 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: enough to like keep you interested. And then finally mystery, 519 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: which I think is pretty interesting, which is like you 520 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: never know what's around the next corner, right, could be 521 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: a pot of chocolate melted, could be death. Who knows, 522 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: You won't know until you go. Look, that's right. So 523 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people who own businesses over the years 524 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: since the you know, the sixties, win environmental psychology has started, 525 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: has said, hey, you know what, a lot of this 526 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: stuff about how people behave in spaces, I could use 527 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: this to make people stay in my space longer, and 528 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: maybe they'll be likelier to spend some money that I'll 529 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: get to keep because they came to my space and 530 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: stayed here and in fact, one of the pioneers of 531 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: environmental psychology, guy named Philip Cotler Um. He coined the 532 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: term atmospherics, and atmospherics is exactly what you would think 533 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: it is. But he he had this very famous quote 534 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: famous in these circles. I should say that, Um, in 535 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: some cases, the place, more specifically, the atmosphere of the 536 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: place is more influential than the product itself in the 537 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: purchase decision. In some cases, the atmosphere is the primary 538 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: a product. Yeah, I mean you brought up the Apple store, um, 539 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: but there are other I don't go to these places, 540 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: but I've been through and walked by some stores that 541 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: feel like a nightclub with the way they're lit and 542 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: the music and the Abercromie and Fitch, I think is 543 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: what you have been in a republic, But yeah, it's uh. 544 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: They're they're trying to create an experience. And Emily even 545 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: does this with her store. But it's not a cheesy nightclub. 546 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: She tries to create an experience while people come in 547 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: and they smell nice things and it's relaxing and there's plants. 548 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: A yoga club, yeah, sort of exact night yoga club basically, 549 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: but so so, yeah, what she's doing is engaging in 550 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: atmospheric and it makes total sense. Of course, you want 551 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: people that not want to like turn around and leave 552 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: your store, people mill around, just have the product. He 553 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: was taking it to to the extreme, saying like, sometimes 554 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: the actual place where you buy the product is even 555 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: more important to the consumer than the product. I think 556 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: that's pretty rare, but those are you know, two extremes 557 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: on the on the spectrum, just the products and the 558 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: place being more important than the products. Whereas you know 559 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: most stores fall within that spectrum, right. Yeah, we went 560 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: to a store in Paris where both of us that 561 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: just sold a bunch of different things and um, I 562 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: mean from pottery to quilts to close the plants, and 563 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: we were both like, I never want to leave this store. 564 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: It was just so awesome on every level. So like 565 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: the store is self, the atmosphere made you want to stay. Yeah, 566 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: the design of it, the mystery I wanted because they had, 567 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, go of these stairs. What's up there? I 568 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: see a light shining around that corner. The heck is 569 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: that bloody candlestick on the stairs? You're like, what's up there? 570 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: I wish I could remember the name of this place, man, 571 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: it was just like everything about it was perfect, okay 572 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: for us, Well, we'll we'll buzz market at some time 573 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: when you got it. That's right. But one of the 574 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: one of the places that has really kind of is 575 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: posed itself as a really great example, understandable example of 576 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: atmospherics and how they can be used to kind of work. 577 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: It's mojo on our brains are casinos. Yeah, which we 578 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: talked about in our episode on casinos. Uh, here's the deal. 579 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: Humans have triggers and clues that the Germans call site 580 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: cabs not psite burgers. I want to say, it's so 581 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: bad right every time? Uh time giver is what that 582 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: literally translates to our synchronizer, and um, this is like 583 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: these triggers that we use are how we adjust our 584 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: biological clocks. Things like where's the sun literally in the sky, 585 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: or even looking out a window, does it look like 586 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: dusk or down? Things like that or even literal clocks 587 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: can allow us to reset our biological clocks. Casinos don't 588 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: like those things, no, no, because casinos want you to 589 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: forget all about time and any pressing matters you have 590 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: on the outside and instead spend your time and your 591 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: money in the casino, so they remove any out windows 592 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: to the outdoors far away from the casino floor, so 593 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: there's no sense of what time of the day it is. 594 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: There's no clocks or anything like that. They're also very 595 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: well aware that sound plays a huge role in the environment. 596 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: So in any casino you will hear all sorts of 597 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: dinging and buzzing and fells and stuff like that. But 598 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: it's a constant, it's a it's constantly going on, and 599 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: then when somebody wins, it rises so much so that 600 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: everyone in the casino knows somebody just want But the 601 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: fact that the dinging and buzzing is always going on 602 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: to some degree, makes your makes you think without thinking 603 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: that winning is always going on because you've associated these 604 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: sounds with winning and it's constant, so people must constantly 605 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: be winning here. Maybe I should play some of these slots. Yeah, 606 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: you know, the one thing I noticed in Vegas is 607 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: the the casino doors are never closed to the outside. 608 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: So if you're walking around and it's add ten degrees 609 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: in Nevada, which is could be the case in any 610 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: given month, you walk by that casino and it's just 611 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: you get hit with a wave of air. Conditioned air 612 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: like you've never felt before, and you're like, oh, maybe 613 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: I should go in there for a little Oh totally, 614 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: you want to go in there just a cool down, 615 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: and like, well, I've got a five bucks in my pocket, 616 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: might as well give it to the casino. And then 617 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: you get a snoop full of like raw cigarette smoke 618 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: and you're like, we'll go back outside. Awful, it's pretty bad. 619 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: What else though, mystery, that's a big one in casinos. Yeah, 620 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: so we should talk about the actual layout of the 621 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: casino floor. It's we talked about legibility and how you know, 622 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: you should be able to find your way around. Casinos 623 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: deliberately make make their casino floors illegible so that you 624 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: just kind of wander around, like there's a general sense 625 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: of the direction you want to be going in. It's 626 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: not like they want you to get lost, because once 627 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: you get lost, yeah, you you're in trouble and you 628 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: don't want to you don't want to do anything, You 629 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: want to just get out of there. They want you 630 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: to not to literally get lost, but figuratively get lost 631 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: in the experience, like where you're okay with wandering and right, 632 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: So they make it so you're you're just kind of meandering, 633 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: like you said, Um, there's like little offshoots. They are like, oh, 634 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: what's around this corner? Oh, more slots, Maybe I'll play it. 635 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: What a great little thing to find, um with For 636 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: the venues and the restaurants, they're placed along the back 637 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: of the casino floor, so that you if you're coming 638 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: just to go to dinner there, you have to go 639 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: through the casino and wander around and maybe play some 640 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: slots and then um, Like I was saying that, they 641 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: don't want you to get lost or feel lost, because 642 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: environmental psychology is identified a condition called spatial anxiety, where 643 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: once you're like, wait, which way do I go? You 644 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: don't want to party, you don't want to gamble, you 645 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: don't want to shop, you don't want to do anything 646 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,959 Speaker 1: but get out of there. So they walk a really 647 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: fine line here and deliberately confusing you with the layout 648 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: without making you anxious. And they do this partially by 649 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: unconscious subliminal cues. They will use literally on the floor 650 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: that show the way that you don't realize you're following. 651 00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: But if you stop and look down at like a 652 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: casino a floor or an airport floor or something like that. 653 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: You'll notice that there's probably a different color something is 654 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: leading you in the passenger you're really supposed to be 655 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, whether it's a different color carpet or 656 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: maybe a runner in the center of a carpet that 657 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: stands out, or a tile on the edge that feels 658 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: like it leads you in a different direction. And this 659 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: is all to help you in wayfinding, which you think 660 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: of in like nature, but like your wayfinding anytime you're 661 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: in a big area like that for sure, like you're 662 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: literally finding your way. There are signs, that's a that's 663 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: a technique of wayfinding. Yeah, if you if you sign 664 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: edge is a real thing. They do have signs and casinos, 665 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: it's not like again, they don't want spatial anxiety, so 666 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: they'll have a sign that says restaurant this way, just 667 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: walk through this maze to get there. But they're your 668 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: steak is waiting on you for that's not the case 669 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: anymore now. It used to be right, that's all you 670 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: can eat. Um, So that one thing is signed. It's 671 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: one thing is um like actually putting a lion on 672 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: the floor. That you don't realize is they're like, you're 673 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: not right, like i'm lost, let me look down at 674 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: the floor and see which way to go. You're not 675 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 1: even aware that you're picking up on that I'm following it. 676 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: They've also figured out that lighting can do the same 677 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: thing too. Next time you're walking down a bright main corridor, 678 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: look up and realize that you're following very bright light, 679 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: and that along some of the corridors and hallways that 680 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: you're not supposed to be down, the lighting is not 681 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: nearly as bright, right, Or an information desk or a 682 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: concierge or uh, something like that that's always got those 683 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: like usually can lights pointing straight down saying come over here, 684 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: I'll help you out right. So, um, what's really really 685 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 1: interesting to meet Chuck is UM, I didn't see anybody 686 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: being like this is the next step. This is the 687 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 1: next horizon for environmental psychology, although I'd be surprised if 688 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: it isn't. But all of these findings, all this stuff 689 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: that we just talked about way finding things like UM, 690 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: cognitive maps, UM, spatial anxiety, all this stuff appears to 691 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: translate fully to virtual environments. So all this stuff that 692 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: environmental psychology has found out about how to make a 693 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: casino more UM palatable and make you want to like spend. 694 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: Also works for online storefronts or um how you find 695 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: your way around, also works for designing video games and 696 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: that kind of so. So environmental psychology works in the 697 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 1: virtual world too. So it's your home, it's your stores, 698 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: it's your cars, and then it's also virtual the future, 699 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: the future. You want to take another break and then 700 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: come back and talk about the whole green movement part, 701 00:39:43,680 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: let's do it. Well, Well, now we're on the road, 702 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: driving in your truck. Want to learn a thing or 703 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: two from Josh can chuck stuff you should know? All right, 704 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: so this is pretty dense. You're right. Why I are 705 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: we back? Okay? Yeah, I didn't know if that was off, Mike, 706 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: I'll stay in front of everybody. You didn't call me, Hey, Jerk, 707 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: I figured it was on. Mike figured we're gonna leave 708 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 1: it in. Hey, Jerk, this is dense. You're right for once? 709 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: Are we recording? Sorry? So yeah, this this is where 710 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: it gets interesting to me, because finally I think it's 711 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: all interesting. But the flip side that we mentioned a 712 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: couple of times is how you affected your environment as well. 713 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: And I'm all about affecting your environment, like peeing outside 714 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: this environment, grow plant grow. Um, Like, everyone knows that 715 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: green spaces are good for your psyche and looking out 716 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: a window is better. You know. I think I've said 717 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: before I went to high school that didn't have windows. No, 718 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: you didn't say that. Yeah, we didn't have windows in 719 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: our school. What I know, it sounds crazy and it 720 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: is now that I look back at. We had one 721 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: common area that had these very high up windows, but 722 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: none of the hallways, none of the classrooms had windows. 723 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,800 Speaker 1: My friend, your high school was in the experiment. It 724 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: might have been. I mean it was built in nineteen 725 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: seventy nine, so I think I think it was the year. No, 726 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: I think it very much might have been an experiment. 727 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: Like kids get distracted with windows, like they'll do some 728 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: real learning. It rita in high school because you can't 729 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: see anything. And then they followed your class. We're like, 730 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,839 Speaker 1: oh god, no, tear it down. But everyone knows that 731 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: green spaces and looking out a window or taking a 732 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: walk through a park or something can really be restorative. Um. 733 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: They even there was one example of botanical gardens one 734 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: of my our favorite things to do as a family. 735 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,919 Speaker 1: But they said in the study here it's like leave 736 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: your family at home. If you really want the benefit, 737 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: go by yourself. Each of you needs to split up 738 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: and wander around by yourselves, which hey, I look forward 739 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: to when we can do that. So that's I mean, 740 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: that's pretty low hanging again, stuff like, yeah, hanging out 741 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 1: in a botanical garden is restorative. But the thing about 742 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,240 Speaker 1: environmental psychologists are like why, you know, why does that happen? 743 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: And then also specifically, how can we use that to 744 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: build ideal environments? And remember back at the very beginning, 745 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 1: Harold Prashansky was asked to how to make hospital rooms better, 746 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: more more conducive to patient well being. He said, put 747 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: him outside. Well, that eventually became, you know, kind of 748 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: a a separate arm of environmental psychology that was led 749 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 1: by Rachel and Stephen kaplan Um from the University of Michigan, 750 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: which has a huge EP programs, I believe because of 751 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: these guys. But starting in the seventies through through the 752 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: nineties to the end of the nineties, they studied the 753 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: effects of the outdoors on humans to understand how to 754 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 1: improve built outdoor settings to make it to just squeeze 755 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: and extract every little bit that restorative juice from nature 756 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: and let it drift down your face like so much 757 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: naval orange juice, just get all sticky from it and 758 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: what it's going. It tastes so good and the smell 759 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: is almost overwhelming, overpowering, but it's just so beautiful and 760 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: natural that you eventually just faint. That's what their goal was. 761 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: So they went that way by way of a couple 762 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 1: of times. A couple of kinds of attention that they 763 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 1: talked about directed attention, which is how if you're in 764 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 1: a real structured, human built environment, you're gonna narrow your focus, 765 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: which can be good to a degree if you're at 766 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: work or something, but it can lead to depletion and 767 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: stress and anxiety over time. Uh. The other kind of 768 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: attention is fascination, which I mean, should we even talk 769 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: about that? It just says it all. It makes me 770 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: smile just saying that word fascination, which is expansive and 771 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: the wilderness and nature is what brings that along. Yeah, 772 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: they kind of mindset where you know, anything can happen, 773 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: or you can just kind of trance out or zone out. 774 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: Your your intense is not being directed right, and they 775 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,839 Speaker 1: have done There have been plenty of studies where they 776 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: found that people do recover from sickness and surgery a 777 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: lot faster, need less meds, and have fewer complications, and 778 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: just feel better about your recuperation. If your hospital has 779 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: a green space. They found that not only just a 780 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: real green space, but if you had a view of 781 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 1: a window that was just a picture of an outdoor 782 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: green space, I still recovered better. They didn't even give 783 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,879 Speaker 1: you pictures of that stuff. They tried to beat out 784 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,359 Speaker 1: of you the memory of what the outdoors were like. 785 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: So they've come up the ratio though of green spaces. 786 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: Two structures within that green space, like you know, a 787 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,800 Speaker 1: plaza or a fountain or whatever, um of seventy to thirty. 788 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 1: I guess seventy green space human built structures, right. I 789 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,279 Speaker 1: guess they just kind of worked out out over the average. Yeah, 790 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: But as I think that's a cool thing to know 791 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:29,879 Speaker 1: if you're planning a green spaces there's actual science behind it. Well. Yeah, 792 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: and even if there's not necessarily science behind how restorative 793 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,360 Speaker 1: it is, which there is increasingly, the opposite is definitely 794 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,280 Speaker 1: well proven. Where sensory deprivation drives us nuts very quickly, 795 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,279 Speaker 1: sensory overload does as well. There is this ninety two 796 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,839 Speaker 1: study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association 797 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: that found that patients began to exhibit the symptoms of schizophrenia, 798 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,400 Speaker 1: especially disordered speech, after just a forty three minute movie 799 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: that was highly intense in sound and color. Yes, sound 800 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,719 Speaker 1: is a big thing for me if I have if 801 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: I have more than one different kinds of sound coming 802 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: at me, Like I'm listening to the radio and like 803 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 1: my daughter will play something on a thing. Oh and 804 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,399 Speaker 1: maybe Emily is saying something to me. Forget it. It's 805 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,800 Speaker 1: like you're at the mall, dude, I lose it. I 806 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:23,839 Speaker 1: gotta get rid of a sound. I can just run 807 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,400 Speaker 1: and start pushing kids out of the work, shoving kids 808 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:32,600 Speaker 1: and put Emiley's mouth and I destroy Ruby's toy. You 809 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,760 Speaker 1: got mesophonia? Buddy? Is that what that is? Maybe? Usually 810 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: it's more something like that. If it's one thing chewing, 811 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: it doesn't bother me. Two people chewing might be a problem, 812 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 1: especially if they're hum chewing. Man like those people Matt m. 813 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 1: Dylan and the Flamingo kid. Did he hump you? Yeah? 814 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: It was like he went to his girlfriend's parents house 815 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: for dinner. He's like, no, no, And I haven't seen 816 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: that in a long time. I haven't either, but never 817 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: forget that part. So um. One of the big challenges 818 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: now that environmental psychology has taken on is this idea 819 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: that they got to figure out how to make people 820 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 1: want to take care of the planet more, And they're 821 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,799 Speaker 1: figuring it out. But basically all they're doing is repurposing 822 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: social psychology and its findings on consumerism and redirecting it 823 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: toward more conservation minded stuff, which is interesting, like the 824 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,840 Speaker 1: finding like um, like, some people like new things. So 825 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 1: if you present something is new and novel and nobody's 826 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: adopted it yet, some people will say, oh, I want 827 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: to try that. Other people are more competitive, for if 828 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,880 Speaker 1: they find out Shelbyville is about to win a recycling award, 829 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: they're going to redouble their efforts so their town wins it. 830 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: Or if this celebrity endorses this product a sort of 831 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 1: an obvious one, sure, Like James Spader wears sustainably sourced 832 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: suits that are made of recycled tires. No. I read that, 833 00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,440 Speaker 1: and I was like, good for you, James Spader, right, 834 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,719 Speaker 1: and made you want to wear a suit like that, 835 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: didn't it? I wondered how you would make a rubber 836 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,840 Speaker 1: suit it was comfortable and fashionable. The fraudst love it, um, 837 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:10,840 Speaker 1: But there there's a you know, there's a big debate 838 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: over whether that is really part of environmental psychology or 839 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:15,920 Speaker 1: if it's taking too big of a bite. And in 840 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: the nineties something called conservation psychology came along and it 841 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,959 Speaker 1: wants to do the same exact thing. And there's also 842 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,600 Speaker 1: ecological psychology that wants to do the same thing. So 843 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: there's a big leg leg wrestling match going on. And 844 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 1: that guy Philip Cotler that you referenced earlier, earlier, the 845 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 1: guy who was like, how can we better sell things 846 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: to people? He is now um, kind of going the 847 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 1: way of environmental psychology with making things greener, right, right, right, 848 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: He's flipped. So even if they are right, he turned 849 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:49,960 Speaker 1: into a dirty rat. Even if they are trying to 850 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 1: nudge us into that behavior, it's tough to fault him 851 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: for pro nudging people toward pro conservation behavior. So that's 852 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 1: environmental psychology, everybody. That's what we've found out about it. 853 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:02,839 Speaker 1: If you want to find out more about it, just 854 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,000 Speaker 1: go start reading. You can spend years and years doing it. 855 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:12,440 Speaker 1: And since I said that, it's time for a listener mail. Uh, 856 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: this is anonymous, but very interesting. Hey, guys, listen to 857 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,399 Speaker 1: four years of podcasts in a year's time. Today I saw, boy, 858 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,760 Speaker 1: You've got a lot of years to go anonymous. Today 859 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 1: I saw the new post on Guardian Angels and began 860 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,560 Speaker 1: to listen, and about the fifteen minute mark, Chuck says 861 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 1: the guy gets a job at McDonald's in the Bronx, 862 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 1: and says, the McDonald's late night scene in New York 863 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: City is still nuts, but you're not getting murdered, but 864 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,880 Speaker 1: it is crazy town. I stopped immediately and replayed what 865 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,880 Speaker 1: you said because I couldn't believe it. My uncle was 866 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:47,280 Speaker 1: murdered last year at McDonald's in the Bronx. I couldn't 867 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,560 Speaker 1: believe it. Did you read this one? The details are 868 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 1: horrific and mostly sensationalized for the media, which of course 869 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 1: makes me angry. But he was an amazing man and strong, 870 00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,400 Speaker 1: loving force in my life. Could it be I'm just 871 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,400 Speaker 1: super sensitive to this week, given that this is a 872 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,439 Speaker 1: year from that, But imagine that though I imagine being 873 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 1: an anonymous like this, What are the chances that you 874 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,640 Speaker 1: would even say that and the podcast would be published 875 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,279 Speaker 1: almost exactly a year later? I remember listening to a 876 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,280 Speaker 1: podcast where he talked about when people see their numbers 877 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:22,280 Speaker 1: like eleven eleven, what's the name of that? The better mineff. 878 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,560 Speaker 1: That's where you see like something, you learn about something, 879 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,359 Speaker 1: and then you see it. Everyone right, that's what she's 880 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,880 Speaker 1: talking about, UM or when people use old gimmicks to 881 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,239 Speaker 1: find out what sex or baby will be in it 882 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,799 Speaker 1: being because you're training yourself, allowing your subconscious through to 883 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: make it seem like your number is appearing more often, 884 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,640 Speaker 1: or that you've got an answer. Thank you for always 885 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,800 Speaker 1: giving me something to think about besides my stressful job. Guys, 886 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:51,319 Speaker 1: and I will see you in Brooklyn. I'll be I'll 887 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,279 Speaker 1: be the one who's blacked out in the shadows with 888 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,520 Speaker 1: the modulated voice. No no, no no, she'll she's she's pregnant 889 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,319 Speaker 1: and and maybe we'll be able to say miss Anonymous. Well, 890 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 1: thanks a lot, Anonymous. I'm sorry about your uncle, UM 891 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,200 Speaker 1: and this uh, this time of year. It is very 892 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,719 Speaker 1: bizarre though, that that happened. We can attest for sure 893 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 1: it was not planned. Email back, She's are excited that 894 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,680 Speaker 1: we're reading this. UM. Well, if you want to get 895 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:17,960 Speaker 1: in touch with us, like Anonymous did, you can go 896 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:19,719 Speaker 1: on to stuff you Should Know dot com and check 897 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,319 Speaker 1: out our social links. You can also send us an 898 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:29,040 Speaker 1: email to stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff 899 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 1: you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radios. How 900 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,719 Speaker 1: stuff works for more podcasts for my heart radio because 901 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,239 Speaker 1: at the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 902 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:37,440 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,