WEBVTT - 10 Commandments & Trump Climate Whiplash 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:13.160 Louisiana's law requiring the Ten Commandments be displayed in public 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:17.040 school classrooms is making its way up to the Supreme Court. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.600 The constitutionality of the law is now before the US 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.680 Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit after a federal 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.960 judge said the requirement violated the First Amendment. The case 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:33.440 has implications outside Louisiana, as lawmakers in other state houses 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:37.159 have begun to propose similar laws, joining me his First 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.959 Amendment expert Caroline Malik Corbin, a professor at the University 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.760 of Miami Law School. Caroline explain why the lower court 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:47.160 blocked this Louisiana law. 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:53.400 So this all started when Louisiana passed the law mandating 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:58.480 that every single public school classroom in Louisiana from kindergarten 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.640 through high school through college post a King James version 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.600 of the Ten Commandments. And naturally, this was challenged as 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:11.640 violating the Establishment Clause that the clause in the First 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:15.679 Amendment of the US Constitution that mandates some degree of 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:20.320 separation of church and state and lawsuits start in district court. 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.840 And in some ways this was a really easy decision 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:28.200 for the district court because the US Supreme Court had 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:33.880 addressed a very similar statute forty five years ago. Forty 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.920 five years ago, Kentucky had passed a law that mandated 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:43.000 every single public school classroom posts the Ten Commandments, and 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.560 the US Supreme Court said, this violates the Establishment clause, 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:53.680 is completely unconstitutional. There's no secular reason to have ten 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:59.840 Commandment texts in public schools, and laws passed by governments 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:04.520 has to have a primarily secular reason. Otherwise is it's 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:05.960 a primarily religious reason. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:06.920 That's getting a. 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.040 Bit like a theocracy. And so when the case came 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.560 before the District Court, it had a precedence from the 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:19.799 Supreme Court directly on point that held that laws mandating 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:25.560 ten Commandments in public school classrooms violates the Establishment Corse, did. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:30.560 The Supreme Court in nineteen eighty two did they change 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.840 the test that they had used in that case. 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:38.200 So here's what's going on since nineteen eighty when this 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.760 decision was made. We have a very different Supreme Court 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:47.000 and we have very different Supreme Court rules. And that's 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:51.839 what Louisiana has binking on because at the time the 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:57.200 first case was decided, there was particular doctrine that controlled 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:00.680 the test that's known as a Lemon test. Now the 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.160 current Supreme Court has jettison that test, and it said 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.480 the way we're going to decide whether something violates separation 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:09.680 church and state is we're going to look at history 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:14.480 and tradition. And history and tradition is highly manipulable and 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:20.440 very contested. But Louisiana is probably banking on the Supreme 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:27.720 Court's willingness sort of construct history and uncover traditions that 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.800 would support Ten Commandments in public schools. So the answer is, 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:36.800 the doctrine has changed, court has changed. We currently have 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.360 a court that is much more receptive to Christianity and 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.320 public schools, and it's not at all clear what it's 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.840 going to do when it revisits this case. 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:50.560 Louisiana said that the law was passed to teach students 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:54.240 about the Ten Commandments' importance to the American legal system. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.480 That was one of their arguments. 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.120 They had many arguments. Yes, So there are lots of 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:06.480 different strategies that you could use when accused of violating 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.960 the Establishment clause, and one of them and I just 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.440 finished a paper sort of addressing precisely this question. So 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.720 I delighted that you're having me on to talk about it. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.200 So one of these strategies is what I am calling 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:27.120 secular washing, and that's when something that is inherently religious, 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:32.159 an inherent religious symbol, inherentlygigious text like a giant Latin 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.400 cross or the Ten Commandments from the Holy Bible, is 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:41.279 recharacterized as something that's actually secular. And so one of 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:45.800 the things that Louisiana is trying to do is argue 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:51.120 that these Ten Commandments, this is not religion, this is history. 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.359 It's just history, and therefore, you know, it's not really 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:59.560 problematic at all under the establishment clause. It's not even 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.760 about really, so what's all the fuss about the history 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.680 of our country, the importance of the Ten Commandments to 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.839 our law, and the importance of the Ten Commandments to 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:15.799 our values. This is again the bottom line with secular washing, 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.760 is trying to recharacterize something that is obviously religious, but 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.800 to claim that no, it's not really it's actually secular 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.719 if you truly understood what it was all about. 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.040 The attorney for the challengers try to stress the religious 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.960 intent of the law's author, who he quoted as saying, 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.360 it's so important that our children learn what God says 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.320 is right and what he says is wrong. 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.839 Yes, the claim that this is about history is ridiculous. 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:51.920 It's clearly about trying to reintroduce Christianity into the public schools. 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.440 And the sponsors themselves, as you started to cite, are 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.839 not really hiding the fact. The litigators might be trying 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:04.200 to to cover up the religious motivation behind the law, 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.240 but the sponsors were quite clear it was about making 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.880 sure children understood God's words. 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:15.440 How does Louisiana defend against the fact that there are 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:22.159 references to God and the Sabbath in the first four Commandments, the. 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.440 First five commandment, they're all religious. I am your God, 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.800 you shall have no other God. You shall not take 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.800 my name in vain. You should observe the Sabbath. The 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:37.520 first five are religious commandments. There's absolutely nothing secular about them, 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.560 and even the others are not altogether secular. Honor thy 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:45.960 Mother and Father, but it's ultimately a religious obligations. Kind 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.760 of a hard argument to make that this is not religious. 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.760 I mean, it is from the Holy Bible. But again, 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:57.920 what Louisiana is banking on is that the Supreme Court 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.400 is not going to analyze whether it's religious or not. 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.680 What instead it's going to do is ask is there 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:11.120 a history and traditions of Ten Commandments in public schools? 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:15.480 And if there is, then we're going to find it constitutional, 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:20.040 because that's the new test the Roberts Court has created 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.000 for challenges like these. The question is is this a 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:28.000 long standing religious practice? If it is, we're going to 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:29.120 find it constitutional. 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.200 Well, I mean, is there a history of having the 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:33.680 Ten Commandments in public schools? 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:40.840 So the answer is no and definitely no. Another tactic. Again, 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.960 there are lots of strategies that courts use. Part of 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.600 the challenge when you're trying to define whether a practice 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.360 is deeply rooted in our history, whether there's a long 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.120 standing tradition of a particular practice, is how you define 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:01.280 the practice. Defining the practice is really key, and the 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.160 State of Louisiana is trying to define the practice as 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.000 any appearance of the Ten Commandments in public schools, although 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:14.000 the more accurate is is there a long history? Is 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:20.160 there a practice of posting Ten Commandment posters in public schools? 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:21.640 And that matters? 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:27.760 That matters because the Supreme Court has never completely banned 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.400 the Bible or the Ten Commandments from public schools. It 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:37.040 is entirely constitutional to talk about the Ten Commandments in 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:41.000 a secular course of study. So if you're studying literature, 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:45.040 for example, absolutely you could study the King James Bible, 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.480 which is a masterpiece of writing. Or if you're in 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.960 a world histories class, obviously you can compare and contrast 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.560 the Holy Commandments of different religions. But the thing you're 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.880 not supposed to be able to do is to cosletize 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:07.040 or priests or try and teach religious tenants as the 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:11.320 true word of God. That is what is forbidden in class. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:13.079 So it's neither here nor there. 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:14.160 If people have. 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.120 Studied the Ten Commandments in class in public school before, 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:23.240 the question is have they posted Ten Commandments on the 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:27.760 walls as a way of bringing children closer to God? 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.480 That's the real question, And the answer to that question 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.920 is absolutely not. There is no history of any such thing. 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.120 One of the things that the district Court did was 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:44.840 listen to an expert on this sac subject testify about 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:50.160 the history of religion in early common schools up through today, 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:56.560 and he said, absolutely, there is no history whatsoever of 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:03.160 Ten Commandment displays and public school and Louisiana hasn't offered 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:07.199 any evidence either. Again, the test is is there a 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:12.240 history and tradition of this particular practice, this particular practice 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:17.000 ten Commandments posters. The answer is no, and Louisiana has 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:18.440 no evidence. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.360 Otherwise, this is expected to go to the Supreme Court. 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.199 Do you think that this posting of the Ten Commandments 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:28.480 goes even too far for this court, which favors religion 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:30.720 in almost every case it comes up in. 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.840 I don't know, I really don't. This court seems to 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:43.000 have been welcoming religion into all areas of the government 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:49.040 where has previously been unconstitutional. It looks like it's about 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:54.360 to remake Establishment Cause doctrine when it comes to funding religion. Again. 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.599 This is a court that upheld a giant Latin cross 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:04.840 a government and cross monument as perfectly constitutional. This is 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:09.360 a court that has held that a coach on duty 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:14.600 may pray in the middle of football fields immediately after 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.880 games in front of his students, despite three prior Establishment 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:24.360 Clause decisions suggesting that's not constitutional. So I don't know 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.319 where the Supreme Court draws the line, and I have 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.560 no confidence that it's going to draw the line here. 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:31.160 Now. 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.200 I sure hope I'm wrong, but I can't confidently say 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:34.920 one way or the other. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.200 I mean, it seemed like this Fifth Circuit panel, which 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.760 was one Reagan appointee, one Clinton appointee, and one Obama appointee, 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.920 seem pretty critical of Louisiana's position. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:51.600 It's blatantly unconstitutional under any test, and certainly under Supreme 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.920 Court president that has not yet been over ruled. It's 0:11:55.040 --> 0:12:00.560 obviously unconstitutional. There's no question that it's unconstitutional. And again, 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:05.480 to the extent that Louisiana tried to create a history 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:09.600 and tradition of Ten Commandments in public schools, its proof 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.040 was really weak. I mean, part of their proof was 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.800 a quotation from James Madison that they've just made up. 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:18.160 What was that? 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:24.080 Here is the quotation in the Legislative History History Records 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:27.120 that James Madison, the fourth President of the United States, 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.760 stated that we have staked the whole future of our 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.720 new nations upon the capacity of each of ourselves to 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:37.839 govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments. 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.199 He never said that they have been called on that. 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:47.280 And again they have trying to construct a history and 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:53.000 tradition for the Supreme Court of Ten Commandments in public schools. 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.440 The best they can come up with are three different 0:12:56.480 --> 0:13:00.160 textbooks that included it, So they have no history of 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:05.120 actual displays or posters, just textbooks that might have included 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.160 the Ten Commandments, and that's really the extent of it. 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.120 And of course one of them existed before the country 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.800 was formed. That was used for colonies, which is not 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:20.439 really very informative, and it was also buriantly anti Catholic, right, 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:26.200 the part of their history is relying on Protestant practices 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:30.920 that reflect virulent anti Catholicism, which in other contexts the 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.479 Court has said, we will not find this history dispositive 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.200 in our constitutional inquiry. 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.800 Their argument that the controversy, you know, it wasn't ripe 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.160 and the challenges don't have standing. 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:47.800 I mean again, a common tactic for trying to jodge 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:55.000 an establishment clause violation, in addition to secular washing, is 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:59.320 to claim that the plaintiffs don't have standing. That is, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.520 in this case, they say it's too early to bring 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:07.520 this claim. It hasn't actually been put into effect yet. 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.720 So more specifically, they're saying it's brought too early. It's 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:15.320 the legal term is unripe. It's not ripe. There's not 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.640 enough of a record. But Frankly, you don't need any 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.000 more information than is already present to decide whether it's 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:27.520 unconstitutional or not. They're clearly hoping that this will be 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:32.240 a vehicle for the Supreme Court to overrule its prior 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:40.120 precedents holding you can't bost Christian dogma onto public school students. 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.840 They're trying to overrule the prior case, and so the 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:49.920 question will be will the Robberts Court take this invitation 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:56.280 and happily overrule prior precedent and allow religion into the 0:14:56.320 --> 0:15:01.080 public schools, and not just religion Christianity. These are Christian 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:02.520 Ten Commandments. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:03.320 And even Christianity. 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:07.240 I mean, that's the Saint James version exactly right. 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.640 People say, oh, but Jews have the Ten Commandments. Yes, 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.680 they do, but their ten Commandments are different than the 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:18.800 ones posted, and the Catholic Ten Commandments are also different. 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.800 So not only is the Ten Commandments favoring Christianity, it's 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:29.160 favoring one branch of Christianity over others. And if the 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.600 establishment clause means anything, it's that the government can't favor 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:38.400 some religions over others. And that is inevitably what happens 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:43.400 when a school posts the Ten commandments in its classrooms. 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:46.440 It'll be interesting to see how this fifth Circuit Panel 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:50.480 with two Democratic appointees on it rules in this case. 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.600 Thanks so much, Caroline. That's Professor Caroline Malacorbin of the 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:59.080 University of Miami Law School. Coming up next. Trump lays 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:03.320 the groundwork for a sweeping anti climate agenda. I'm June 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.320 gross when you're listening to Bloomberg In the dizzy number 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.400 of executive orders President Donald Trump signed on day one, 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:15.240 where a series of orders laying the groundwork for a 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:19.640 sweeping overhaul of US energy policy, putting the weight of 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:24.160 the federal government behind fossil fuel production and pulling back 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:28.520 from the fight against climate change. Trump insists his drill Baby, 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.960 drill program will bring down prices and inflation. 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.600 It just works that way. It just economically works that way. 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:38.960 When the oil comes down, its will bring down prices. 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:42.080 Then you won't have inflation, and then the interest rates 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.280 will come down. My guest is an expert in environmental law, 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.960 Pat Parento, a professor with the Vermont Law and Graduate School. 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:50.000 Let's start. 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:55.480 Trump declared a national energy emergency on day one. What 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:57.400 does that allow him to do? 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:05.560 Well? Declaration of a national emergency just generally does quote 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:10.560 unlock certain provisions of federal law. But it's a statute 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:16.160 by statute kind of thing. The declaration itself doesn't do anything. 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.800 It's a predicate for what's to come next. So now 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:25.360 you have to go through individual statutes. For example, offshore 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.800 oil and gas leasing that's governed by the Outer Continental 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:33.760 Shelf Lands Act. If it's an online oil and gas development, 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.600 the drill, baby drill, the mantra that's governed by a 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.920 law known as the Federal Land Policy and Management Act, 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:45.440 and so on and so forth. So the orders themselves 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.399 are a clarion call, right, and a policy announcement clearly 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.240 and a direction that the administration is going to go. 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:58.240 But legally it's going to go statute by statute, and 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.879 in fact, project by project, whether you're talking about a 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:06.240 gas pipeline or an oil pipeline or an LNG terminal 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.960 or whatever, it's gonna go, you know, project by project, 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:10.720 law by law. 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.880 He also ordered quarterly meetings of a committee of cabinet 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.920 level officials known as the Gods Squad. 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:20.679 What is the God Squad? 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.400 They've only met a handful of times over the past four. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:27.080 Decades, right, and I've been the only lawyer who has 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:31.320 appeared in all four of the god Squad proceeding. So 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:33.320 you're talking to you. 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:35.320 I don't know if or bad I'm trying to. 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.000 I don't know. I can tell you this. The Endangered 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.800 Species Committee is not a standing committee. Okay, it doesn't 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:48.160 meet quarterly or regularly at all. In fact, it can 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:52.280 only meet as the Endangered Species Committee when there is 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:57.320 an application in front of it that meets really specific 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:02.959 statutory criteria that I had a hand in drafting, and 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.720 the most basic one is there can be no exemption 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:13.280 process unless there's what's called an irreconcilable conflict between a 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:17.880 specific project. Maybe it's a water project, a highway project, 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:20.960 timber sale project, but there has to be a really 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:26.280 specific project federally authorized or undertaken, and it then has 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:31.600 to conflict with the commands under Section seven of the 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:35.800 Endangered Species Act, meaning the activity in question has to jeopardize. 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.880 That's the term the continued survival of a listed species 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.600 endangered or threatened, right, So we don't have anything like that, 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.119 As you point out, there hasn't been one since the 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:51.119 spotted owl got Squad proceeding. Where I was the owl's lawyer, 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:54.959 if you will, because I was the special counsel appointed 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:59.720 to the Fish and Wildlife Service to present the case 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:03.720 for preserving the owl's habitat to the God Squad. So 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.480 there hasn't been one since nineteen ninety two, it's my point. 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.040 And there is nothing on the horizon that would give 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.959 rise to convening the God Squad. 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.399 Pat I wish I could say I was once the 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:19.399 spotted owl's lawyer. That's so No, No, Really, saving an 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.200 endangered species is a higher calling in my book. Back 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.760 to the executive orders now, so Trump is trying to 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:31.840 speed up project reviews using emergency consultations under the Endangered 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:37.000 Species Act, which is usually reserved for natural disasters. And 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.200 Noah Greenwald, he's the Endangered Species program director the Center 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:45.399 for Biological Diversity, said this executive order is a death 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:50.240 warrant for polar bears, lesser prairie chickens, whooping cranes, and 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.280 so many more species on the brink of extinction. 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:54.320 Is he right? 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.199 Well? I love Noah, but I wouldn't go so far 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.679 as to say it's a death warrant. Okay, it's a 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:05.919 threat from this administration to use the exemption process and 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:10.880 the accelerated consultation process to speed up fossil fuel development. 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.240 But here's the thing again, there's law that has to 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:17.880 be followed. You don't just wave your arms and sign 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.800 a piece of paper calling it an order and then 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:25.240 you start building stuff. That's not the way it works. 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.840 So if, in fact, the Secretary of Interior, the Secretary 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.880 of the Department of Energy, or some other cabinet official 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:37.120 starts authorizing projects that conflict with the Endangered Species Act 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.760 that don't go through the full formal consultation process, I'm 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:45.399 sure that the Centers for Biological Diversity will be the 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:48.119 first one to file a lawsuit, and they're going to 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:53.040 win because here's the thing. The emergency consultation procedures are 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:58.480 triggered by disasters that threaten human life and property. Where 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:02.960 is that happening. That's happening in California, for sure, but 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.760 it's not the result of the Endangered Species Act. Here 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:12.040 comes the punchline. It's climate stupid. So that's what's threatening 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:16.600 natural disasters right now. It's not water management in California, 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:21.920 it's climate change accelerating and exacerbating the wildfire problems in 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:24.880 California has always had, So I'm not ready to say 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:27.720 that just because Trump issued in order, species are going 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:30.199 to go extinct, not without a hell of a fight anyway. 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.080 Pat is he trying to blame the water crisis in 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:34.840 California on that little fish? 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.760 Yes, he is. Although the delta smelt he's called the 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.760 delta smelt out. The Delta smelt, by the way, now 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:46.120 exists in captivity. It's functionally extinct in the wild. That's 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:50.760 happened with other species like the California condor the blackfooted ferret. 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:53.480 There's a number of species that have gotten to the 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:56.360 point where they had to be taken into captive breeding 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:59.840 programs and then reintroduced into the wild. That's the case 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:02.360 with the Delta smelt. But here's the other thing. There 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:07.200 are five species of fish, including two species of salmon, 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.199 which are recreationally, commercially valuable and also valuable to the 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:15.080 tribes in California. So there are five different species involved 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:19.080 in the San Joaquin Delta where the Delta smelt habitat exists. 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:22.920 So it isn't one species, it's a whole suite. In fact, 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:26.600 it's the whole ecosystem of the San Joaquin Delta that's 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:27.520 at risk. Here. 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:32.920 One promise he made repeatedly during the campaign was drill, 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:33.640 baby drill. 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:35.040 That's his policy. 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:38.560 And in his inaugural address he said, we will be 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:42.520 a rich nation again, and it is that liquid gold 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:44.480 under our feet that will help. 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:45.080 Right. 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:48.960 So here's the facts. That's a fact free statement, right. 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:53.760 So the fact is the United States is the largest 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:59.080 producer an exporter of oil and gas on the planet. 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:03.320 And oil and gas development, contrary to a lot of 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:09.640 climate activists, tremendously exponentially expanded under Biden in the last 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:14.560 four years. So A, there is no energy emergency. B 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:19.879 as to drill, baby drill. Here's the data. Twenty five 0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:24.560 million acres of federal lands on land oiling gas are 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:28.680 under lease already not being developed. Twenty five million acres 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:34.680 of public land. Secondly, there are nine thousand drilling permits 0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:38.160 that have been issued. They're not being developed either. Why 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.560 not because there's a glut of oiling gas on the market. 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:44.840 Why are gasoline prices at the pump the lowest they've 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:48.480 been in seventy years? You're that right, seventy years. Go 0:24:48.600 --> 0:24:51.360 back and look it up. Not since the nineteen fifties 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.439 have we seen prices this low at the pump. The 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:58.080 reason is there is a glut of oil and gas 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:00.840 on the market right now that could change course, but 0:25:01.000 --> 0:25:05.119 as of right now, there's no basis to declare an 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:08.879 energy emergency. There certainly is a climate emergency, or if 0:25:08.880 --> 0:25:11.160 you want to look at it another way, the real 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:16.359 energy emergency is the failure to convert and transition away 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:21.320 from fossil fuels and to the cleaner sources of energy solar, wind, 0:25:21.320 --> 0:25:24.040 which of course Trump hates because it interferes with his 0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:27.800 golf course in Scotland. But beyond that, you know where 0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:30.720 is most of the renewable energy being developed right now? 0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:36.440 In Republican states Texas, Oklahoma, Iowa, and so forth. So 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:39.919 the real emergency is we need to get on with 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:44.360 the business of transitioning to cleaner, more efficient, and actually 0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:46.560 more profitable sources of energy. 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:50.440 So, as you mentioned, he's been vocal about his dislike 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:54.000 of wind for years. What is he trying to do 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:58.960 with these executive orders and alternative energy like solar and wind. 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:04.200 He's put up as he put it on offshore wind 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:07.280 projects that are still in the permit process. There are 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:10.280 nine of them that have already received their permits, and 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:12.800 they aren't caught by the executive order, but there are 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:16.560 seven others that are not finished with permitting, and so 0:26:16.600 --> 0:26:19.520 he's he's put a pause on them, and he's threatened 0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:24.840 to withdraw major portions of offshore wind areas, particularly in 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:27.400 what he calls the Gulf of America, which the rest 0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:30.080 of the world still calls the Gulf of Mexico. And 0:26:30.400 --> 0:26:32.359 that's a problem or an issue that's going to have 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:35.040 to go to the courts, because once again, the President 0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:39.359 does have authority to withdraw areas of the ocean from development, 0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:43.320 including I would acknowledge wind development, but again there's a 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:46.879 practice by which you do that, including doing an environmental 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:51.040 assessment and changing the leasing programs that already have been 0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:56.000 approved and so forth, so as to further development offshore, 0:26:56.640 --> 0:27:00.399