WEBVTT - Webber on Entrepreneurship in the Energy Transition 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.400 This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.200 the B and EF podcast. Today we have an interview 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:07.680 with a special guest. This was recorded at our B 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:09.680 and E F New York Summit back in April, so 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.000 we're joined by Michael Weber. He is many things, the 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:17.319 current Josie Centennial Professor in Energy Resources and Professor of 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.920 Mechanical Engineering at the University of Texas at Austin. He's 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.200 authored books on energy and power in addition to multiple 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:26.560 op eds for The New York Times. He served as 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.920 the chief Science and Technology Officer at UNGIE in France, 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.520 and he's the Chief Technology Officer of the investment fund 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.000 Energy Impact Partners, which is backed by the Abu Dhabi 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.920 Investment Authority and Microsoft. BNF's chief editor, Ben Vickers sat 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.080 down with Michael and together they discussed a range of topics, 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.400 including how Michael was turned from a hydrogen skeptic to 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.000 a believer, his optimistic views on the energy transition, and 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.720 the art of entrepreneurship. If you like this podcast, make 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.880 sure to subscribe to receive updates on future episodes, and 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.920 consider giving us a review on Apple podcas casts or Spotify. 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:03.640 This episode was recorded at our New York summit, but 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.199 we also have five other summits which take place around 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:08.640 the world. The one coming up next is Munich, and 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:11.640 following that is our summit alongside the B twenty in 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:14.080 New Delhi. If you'd like to know more about these summits, 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.280 their agenda, or even see videos from previous summits, visit 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.880 us at about dot bn EF dot com, Forward Slash Summit, 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:22.800 or just click on the link that we've included in 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.640 this episode description. As a reminder, B and AF does 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.600 not provide investment or strategy advice and are a complete disclaimer. 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:30.800 Is it the end of the show, and right now 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.640 we get to hear Ben's conversation with Michael Weber. 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:44.319 Thanks for joining us, my pleasure, Thanks for having me. 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.920 Now these sort of podcasts, we're interested in the diversity 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:50.360 of people's experience as well. You often if you just 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:52.160 come from the business side, it's all out business. You 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.200 just come from the academic side, it's all that academia. 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.720 But you're an interesting person to talk with because you 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:58.880 span both of those. But just to give a little 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.080 bit of background energy impact As for those who don't know, 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:04.800 it's really really large fund actually sixty seven investments in 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.960 the portfolio. Thirty two of those the technology, fourteen in energy, 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.880 then there are seven in industrials, foreign materials, and foreign 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:14.120 communications that's causing according to what we know, So that's 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:16.480 a lot of technology thirty two investments. The funds they 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:20.919 have includes Deep Decalbonization Frontier Fund, which is invested by 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.600 companies such as Duke Energy and First Energy, Call and 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.000 Microsoft as well. So an interesting little world of investment. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:28.880 And then of course it's the academic side as well. 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.679 Now you can buy an education with hands on investing. 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:33.840 How does that work and in what way is that 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.600 an advantage other than to the students. 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.600 So I'm kind of professor by day and venture capitalist 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:41.560 by night. So I get to see the corporate world 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.800 where action is taken to solve our energy problems, and 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.120 are also in the world of research and teaching trying 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.280 to create an ecosystem that has a lot of ideas 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.520 that hopefully someday will become investable. These different ideas from 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:54.920 these students who are innovative and they take the problems 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.680 of climate change and energy security very seriously. So for me, 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.320 it's really fun to be on different aspects. So the 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.080 energy sector from the real world of getting things done 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.840 and then the academic world of thinking about getting things done. 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.880 And it hopefully is useful for the students because it 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.920 shows in different pathways by which we might scale up solutions. 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.680 Some of the students want to become investors, are in 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:16.840 the investor world, or want to launch own startups and 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.040 seek investment, so maybe it is a pathway to help 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.600 them chase their dreams. And from the investor side, we're 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.320 always looking for the next innovator, the next great entrepreneur, 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.320 the next great team to invest in, the next great technology. 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:30.640 And so being involved in the world academia, which is 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.040 not just University Texas because I go visit students the 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.280 universities helps us cast the net wider to find those 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.119 great ideas that just need capitalization and then they'll change 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.160 the world. So hopefully everybody benefits from this. 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.720 Okay, so a bit of a scout as well, totally. 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:47.960 Yeah, scouting for talent, scouting for technologies and teams, scouting 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.800 for ideas from the venture investment side, but then also 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.120 for the students, trying to help them scout for money, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.040 which might be energy by partners, but there are other 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:58.160 queen tech funds out there, And this is sort of 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.200 the thing I've realized in a very optimistic way, is 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:01.840 that there are plenty of good ideas. We've got a 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:03.440 lot of good ideas out there. It's just a matter 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.040 of capitalizing the right ones, and then the markets will 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:07.320 take over and we'll all be fine. 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.240 Yeah, we can talk about how you do that and 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:11.600 what are the so paramises you're maybe having to apply 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:13.440 all the criteria using. I love the fact that you 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.280 describe it as fun as well what you do. It's 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:15.720 very fun. 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:18.000 I would say there's a lot of reason to have 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:19.839 doom and gloom around climate change that kind of thing. 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:21.760 But I'm an optimist. I really think we've got this. 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:23.080 I think we're going to solve it. I think we're 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:25.880 going to solve it more profitably and quickly than people expect. 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:27.920 I think we'll end up looking kind of seamless when 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.279 we flash forward fifty years and look backwards. I just 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:32.360 very optimistic. And one of the reason I'm optimistic is 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.400 because I have the honor and privilege of teaching hundreds 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.760 of students a year and they're great, They've got so 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.560 many ideas. And then as an investor, we see the startups. 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.400 They have to present their ideas to us. It's not 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.440 a great idea, so it's hard to come away unenthused 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:45.479 and in the. 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:46.880 End is fun. That's interesting. 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.320 I mean that enthusia on the optimism that you get 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.280 from the younger people as well the generations coming in. 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:53.760 That's good to hear and that's what gives a lot 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:56.040 of energy to the whole idea of the energy transition. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.320 But then you've got these legacy systems right, and that 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:00.120 goes for the investment community as much as the for 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.120 the industrial network. As long as you defer the power 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.240 grade and so on. Isn't the sort of a clash 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.040 there that are we going to be able to change? 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:06.599 Not the people. 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.320 The people are changing obviously and the mindset is changing, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.440 but the infrastructure and the industry. 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:11.680 Resistance we have. 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.200 Yeah, there are two reasons for optimism and one reason 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.280 for pessimism. So the two reasons for optimism as I'm 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:17.839 an engineer, and to be an engineer means you have 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:19.520 to be a problem solver. To be a problem solver 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:21.200 means you have to believe the problem can be solved. 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:22.960 You have to be optimistic to solve a problem. And 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.680 then investors and investors have to be optimistic too. You're 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:27.760 essentially investing in the future, so you have to be 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.240 optimistic that the future will take you to a profitable 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.840 are prosperous play. So optimism is at the root of 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:34.680 the venture side of me and the engineer aside of me. 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.320 But the reasons why we might have pessimism. 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:37.800 Is for what you just said. 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.039 There's a lot of legacy infrastructure and can we leverage 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:42.400 it or do we have to replace it? And if 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:44.640 you look at just a natural gas industry, just natural 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.640 gas pipelines, compressors, tank some power plants in the United States, 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:52.200 it is something like eight trillion dollars worth of capital investment. 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:54.400 Maybe it's depreciated like two troyon or something like that, 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.000 but the United States is one fifth of the world's 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.919 natural gas infrastructure, so it's like forty trillion dollars is 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:00.960 the value of the capital if we had to build 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.640 it tonight for the gas infrastructure around the world, and 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:05.800 then you had an oil and coal and nuclear other things. 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.800 So clearly there's many tens of triyans or hundreds of 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:10.839 trillions of dollars of stuff in the ground that we 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:12.560 built up over the last one hundred and fifty years, 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.320 and the question for society and the markets and entrepreneurs 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.159 and finance and policy is do we get to leverage 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:18.360 what we've already built or do we. 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:19.000 Have to replace it? 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.120 And if we had to replace it, that probably will 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.240 be more expensive than leveraging what we built, at least 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.920 that's my view. And so anytime you can have an 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.560 existing solution or a new solution that leverages existing capabilities 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.440 probably gets to market faster. Dropping fuels for pipelines, or 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.640 hydrogen blends with methane or even using hydrogen to form 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.279 methane that you'll move through the pipes, or fuels that 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:40.760 have the same compatibilities with the materials you might need, 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.080 or using right of ways for transmission lines or existing 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.160 coal power plant sites for geothermal or small mondu reactors. 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:49.320 Leveraging is more efficient if you can do it. The 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:51.360 risk of what I just said, though, is the incumbents 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.200 own it might not be on board with that change, 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.760 or I'm pretty happy with the current system, or would 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:57.800 just rather not do it, or something like that. So 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.320 the inherent legacy mats might slow us down. So if 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.240 we're looking for a reason to be pessimistic. That's one 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.240 that this is different than software. Right, Software, if you 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:07.840 make a new app, you can scale up and send 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:08.760 it around the world tomorrow. 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:09.600 It's by hitting send. 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.119 With energy, you've got to do either wires and poles 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.120 or pipes or something. They're still on the ground and 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.880 so that builds in a delay and gives an advantage 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:17.600 to encompensate. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:18.040 Yeah. 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.080 Yeah, so people are optimistic. I suppose the IRA is coming, 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:22.560 so there's some more money in there. But the sort 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:24.480 of the volume of capital we're talking about it is 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:25.200 absolutely massive. 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:25.800 It's big. 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.840 Yeah, and the US government maybe can be a big investor, 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:30.960 but should be a tenth or fifth of the market 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:31.240 or something. 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:32.239 You really has to be private. 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:34.160 Markets have to take over and so they can just 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.240 get things nudge, but they can get the ball rolling downhill. 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:37.400 Then it becomes an avalanche. Right. 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.480 Yeah, that's the okay, exciting thing, and we've seen that 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.240 happened many, many times with many technologies, including an energy 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:43.920 where the government either by spending or. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:45.920 Policy as a first mover, then the markets take over. 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:49.200 That's interesting. So that's where the investment fund comes in, right, Yeah. 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.840 Energy Investment Plan sixty seven or sixty sixty to seventy investments. 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.480 I think the largest investment I could find was two 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.720 hundred and fifty million. So these these are small startups. 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.000 These are things that hopefully going to snow at some point. 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.160 But let's look up, maybe, what are the criteria, what 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.680 parameters really do you apply nowadays looking at something that's 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:09.440 going to transform this system so rapidly. What are the 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.120 most promising things that you're really looking forward? 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.600 It's a great question. So overall, there are several different 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.200 funds within Energy Impact Partners, and some focus more on 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.600 scaling up ideas that already improved. What's more focused on 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.800 the business risk aspose of the technology risk. At the 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:26.920 Frontier fund, we're focused more on the technical risk, not 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.960 the business risk, and therefore we'll be earlier stage Series A, 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.400 maybe Series B sometimes seed projects that are earlier. We 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:38.000 have funds focused on activity in Europe, with some focus 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:39.880 on non traditional entrepreneurs. We have a credit fund, we 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.000 have an infrastructure fund, so we have different stages at 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.600 capital at different risk profiles. All organize around energy transition, 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.719 so we're all about energy, making energy better, which could 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.640 in some cases include things like more robust wires and polls. 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.000 For transmission systems sometimes it's better cybersecurity systems, and for 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.160 Frontier Fund it's deep decarbonization, so it's all energy transition. 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.040 We have different areas of focus within the different funds 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.720 and different technology risk sort of appetites. Twohndre and fifty 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:07.880 million dollars is a big investment that is not typical. 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:12.000 Typical Series A investment might be four to twelve million 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:16.079 dollars for the Frontier Fund. Earlier stage companies where they've 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.240 got some good intellectual property, maybe they've demonstrated in the lab, 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.640 they're going to their first pilot scale demonstration, or they've 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.880 done their first pilot, doing a larger pilot, something like that. 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.520 So we're looking for upside potential. Must be disruptive, must 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.280 have the ability to really displace or avoid a lot 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:32.960 of CO two emissions, and we're really focused on emissions. 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.960 There are a lot of great ideas around sustainability, like Circularity, 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:38.720 we won't invest because we're really around energy and climate, 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.599 not sustainability, even though it's an investable idea and a 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.960 great company, we often don't do those investments. And there 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.880 are some companies that have a lot of technical risk, 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:51.000 but they're too big already. It's hard for us to 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.280 If it's already a two billion dollar company, even if 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.160 they have a lot of technical risk, then we're already 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.200 priced out of the market. Or some of the bigger ones, 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.160 they might not be a fit for us because there's 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.720 not enough business restaurant, enough upside potential. So they just 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.120 kind of meet our criteria. In the end, we're investing 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.720 in teams, not technologies. I really we have to believe 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:10.760 in the team, and the team has to be innovative. 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:12.440 They have to know how to run a company, like 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.240 a bad CEO can really tank a company. And so 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.000 we really think about the quality of the team. And 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.160 if we believe the technology, we believe the market space, 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.320 we believe the pathway, but we don't believe in the 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:22.240 team we want to invest. 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:23.839 Yeah, that's fascinating. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.720 So there's the people skills, right does that scout scouting 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:28.560 part of your role as well. 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.040 In the end, it's the most important determined whether we invest, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.000 because even if it's a great team with so so, 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.320 technology will be tempted and we think, well, we see 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.439 other technologies really good, maybe this team can. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:37.880 Look at that. 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.200 So what can what should a great team be able 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.760 to do and be able to prove there's being on board. 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:45.400 So certainly by the time they come to us, they've 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:47.280 already proved they have some innovation, they have some idea. 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.040 Usually they have a patent or some intellectual property portfolio 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.320 that gives them the ability to move in the markets 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.559 and protect their ideas. So a lot of it will 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:57.920 be innovation is the key to get to us. But 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.000 then we wonder can they grow and can they scale? 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:01.760 Can they keep the harmony in the team? If they 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:03.480 come to us and they have seven people but they're 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:05.840 going to grow to forty, Well that's a pretty difficult 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.360 thing for a company to do, and is that the 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:08.000 right management? 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:08.720 Can they do it or not? 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.000 And a lot of times they can, And so we 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:12.920 just have to look at that. Or they're all technologists 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:14.679 of this company, but they need to add HR or 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.280 legal finance, they need to add other skills. So we'll 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.240 look a lot at the team and people who've done 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.920 it before. Of track record is very appealing. 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.440 Right, the record is quite bold usiness. Yeah, we have 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:26.120 this vision. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.199 I teach entrepreneurship for freshmen at the university, by the way, 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.400 and they're eighteen year old nineteen year olds coming in, 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.520 and if you ask them what does an entrepreneur look like, 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:35.560 see all the stereotypes come through. They think it's a 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.880 white male from the Bay Area who wears a hoodie 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.480 and is twenty one years old at college drop out. 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.840 And we'll say, okay, name some college dropout successful entrepreneurs, 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.280 and they'll say Bill Gates and Michael Dell and Steve 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.000 Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg. And I'll say, okay, name four more, 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.840 and they can't because most entrepreneurs are forty or older. 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:55.800 They have experience, they know what they're doing, and they're 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.000 much more diverse than you think than what TV tells you. 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.600 And so we're looking for that. It's that we're going 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.080 to make a big investment in a college drop like 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:04.600 this kind of thing is. It makes for great TV, 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.240 but it's actually quite rare, and especially in the energy 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.920 space where it's so complex, we want people with operational experience, 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:11.560 so they tend to be older and more experience. But 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.680 they say that I've been in the power sector for 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:15.520 twenty five years and here's the problem I'm trying to 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:16.800 solve it. I was an oil and gas I know 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:18.520 how to do drilling and now I'm going to apply 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.199 it to geothermal. We want that experience because energy is 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.720 so risky and so complex. You want someone who has 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.679 intuition built from years of making mistakes out in the field. 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.600 Right, Yeah, real will experiences. But you're teaching entrepreneurship, I am. Yeah, 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.040 I teach that as well. 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.160 So it's actually so I teach entrepreneurship, I teach energy, 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.880 and I teach thermo dynamics, which we call thermo dynamics. 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.400 It's a it's a weed out class, Franger, it's really hard, 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.599 enduring class. But so I teach the freshman entrepreneurship, and 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.240 I've actually told them I'm not sure I can teach entrepreneurship. 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:48.880 I'm not sure it can be taught, but I think 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.800 it can be learned, which is a fascinating thing. I 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:54.920 can teach them. I've got you laid on them. Yes, really, 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.720 it can be learned. I'm not sure it can be taught, 0:12:58.040 --> 0:12:59.800 but I'll teach you what I know and the certain 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.240 things to know about performers and finances and what are 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.480 the terms of what's total addressable market or TAM or 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.280 the different things that we use abscribe the entrepreneurial opportunity, 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:08.839 and I sort of met up front that this is 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.840 the only class I've taught for almost a decade. No howur, 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:13.040 I'm not't even sure I can or should be. But 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.439 the students come out of it really loving the course, 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:16.959 and I guess one of the main ideas with the 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.800 entrepreneurship with the class is anyone could be an entrepreneur, 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.120 but it's almost up to you whether you are wired 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.000 that way or want it. And a lot of students 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.120 leave the course thinking I don't want to be an entrepreneur. 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:27.360 That's actually very valuable too. 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:28.240 That's very by the way. 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.079 Yeah, right, And so at thirty students maybe ten emerge 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.719 thinking oh yeah this is for me. Ten emerging and 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:35.440 yeah I could do this, and ten are like not 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:35.760 for me. 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:36.360 That's fine. 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.600 So well, to recognize that early on is pretty pretty 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:39.160 usefulvery nice. 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:40.000 Yeah exactly. 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.640 But from what you're saying before, it's also about the team. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.360 So entrepreneurships is also about networking and having having the 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:47.960 team to work with, right or is that something that 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:48.520 comes off with. 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:50.760 Yeah, network is important. So can you build the right team, 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.000 can you identify the right skills, can you manage the team? 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:53.240 Well? 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.520 Can you set realistic goals. You want to push the team. 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.120 You have to hit your milestones. In startups that we 0:13:58.240 --> 0:13:59.960 love to see are the ones that say here's our plan. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:01.000 They hit their milestones. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.839 That means their plan is very realistic and that they 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.120 are able to make progress towards the goal and they're 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:07.880 not having to have down rounds or go ask for 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:09.840 more money unexpected because things didn't go the way they 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:11.440 want it. So you just want people who can you 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.440 can plan and then execute. But that's hard to plan 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.280 and execute if you're in an innovative space because you 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.120 don't always know how it's going to go. There's a 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.680 lot of risk, especially for these early stage companies, and 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:21.240 you have to build in room for that kind of 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:25.840 risk for failing living with that. Yes, yeah, exactly, which 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.680 is why it's venture investing. It's a different kind of 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.160 risk profile than say a big one. 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.320 Again risk profiles because you've got the Decarbonization Frontier Fund 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:38.240 now as a Duke Energy and First Energy in Microsoft 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:40.760 are invested in that fund. What sort of investment horizons 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:41.400 are aiming form with it? 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:42.280 From what does it? What does it do? 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.360 Is it deep decarbonization? And in a way with companies 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.880 like those coming in Duke Energy, First Engine, Microsoft. Are 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:50.960 their criteria for investing in this sort of fund different, 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.440 Their requirements different from what you normally get. 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.320 So our investors don't get to dictate to us where 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:58.760 we invest. We do it based on ours, so there's 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.160 independence on them well to think about what's the future 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.160 of energy and what are the market opportunities and does 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.840 it start up meet the criteria for our investments or not. 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.560 The frontier font in particular, has a longer horizon. Deep 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:10.360 de carversation is going to take a little longer, so 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:12.680 what do you have it a longer but like fifteen 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.520 years instead of eight years, Like we're thinking longer in 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.760 the future, a longer investment window than a longer harvest 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:19.960 which years doesn't sound very much when you're talking about 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.320 the comonanization that doesn't know, I think that's such little bit. 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.320 Typical venture investing will be five to eight years or something, right, 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.560 So it's longer horizon than typical venture And we see 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:30.920 this sort of rising tide lifts all bo like we 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.280 think the energy sector is where a lot of the 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.400 investment's going to go for a few decades. There will 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:39.400 be a lot of opportunity for prosperity while bringing people secure, cheap, reliable, 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:41.400 meaner energy. I think this is very exciting to be 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:43.280 part of that. But the horizons like you just to 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.040 be practical, you have to get out of the lab. 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:46.200 You have to have a pilot, you have to scale 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:47.640 up your pilot. You have to get customers, you have 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:49.600 to get a track record, then you get more customers. 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:51.440 It just takes a while in energy in a way 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:53.600 that we're not used to from say software or the 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:54.520 seven detector world. 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.960 Is this something that do kenergy for example, or these 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.480 investments in this fund. Is this something they're particularly aware of? 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:01.480 Is it something what are they what are there just 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:02.760