1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: the B and EF podcast. Today we have an interview 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: with a special guest. This was recorded at our B 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: and E F New York Summit back in April, so 5 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: we're joined by Michael Weber. He is many things, the 6 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: current Josie Centennial Professor in Energy Resources and Professor of 7 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: Mechanical Engineering at the University of Texas at Austin. He's 8 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: authored books on energy and power in addition to multiple 9 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: op eds for The New York Times. He served as 10 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: the chief Science and Technology Officer at UNGIE in France, 11 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: and he's the Chief Technology Officer of the investment fund 12 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: Energy Impact Partners, which is backed by the Abu Dhabi 13 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: Investment Authority and Microsoft. BNF's chief editor, Ben Vickers sat 14 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: down with Michael and together they discussed a range of topics, 15 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: including how Michael was turned from a hydrogen skeptic to 16 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: a believer, his optimistic views on the energy transition, and 17 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: the art of entrepreneurship. If you like this podcast, make 18 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: sure to subscribe to receive updates on future episodes, and 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: consider giving us a review on Apple podcas casts or Spotify. 20 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: This episode was recorded at our New York summit, but 21 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 1: we also have five other summits which take place around 22 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: the world. The one coming up next is Munich, and 23 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: following that is our summit alongside the B twenty in 24 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: New Delhi. If you'd like to know more about these summits, 25 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: their agenda, or even see videos from previous summits, visit 26 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: us at about dot bn EF dot com, Forward Slash Summit, 27 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: or just click on the link that we've included in 28 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: this episode description. As a reminder, B and AF does 29 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: not provide investment or strategy advice and are a complete disclaimer. 30 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: Is it the end of the show, and right now 31 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: we get to hear Ben's conversation with Michael Weber. 32 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, my pleasure, Thanks for having me. 33 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 3: Now these sort of podcasts, we're interested in the diversity 34 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 3: of people's experience as well. You often if you just 35 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: come from the business side, it's all out business. You 36 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 3: just come from the academic side, it's all that academia. 37 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 3: But you're an interesting person to talk with because you 38 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 3: span both of those. But just to give a little 39 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 3: bit of background energy impact As for those who don't know, 40 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 3: it's really really large fund actually sixty seven investments in 41 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 3: the portfolio. Thirty two of those the technology, fourteen in energy, 42 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 3: then there are seven in industrials, foreign materials, and foreign 43 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 3: communications that's causing according to what we know, So that's 44 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 3: a lot of technology thirty two investments. The funds they 45 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 3: have includes Deep Decalbonization Frontier Fund, which is invested by 46 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: companies such as Duke Energy and First Energy, Call and 47 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 3: Microsoft as well. So an interesting little world of investment. 48 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 3: And then of course it's the academic side as well. 49 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 3: Now you can buy an education with hands on investing. 50 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: How does that work and in what way is that 51 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 3: an advantage other than to the students. 52 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 4: So I'm kind of professor by day and venture capitalist 53 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 4: by night. So I get to see the corporate world 54 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 4: where action is taken to solve our energy problems, and 55 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 4: are also in the world of research and teaching trying 56 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 4: to create an ecosystem that has a lot of ideas 57 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 4: that hopefully someday will become investable. These different ideas from 58 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 4: these students who are innovative and they take the problems 59 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 4: of climate change and energy security very seriously. So for me, 60 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 4: it's really fun to be on different aspects. So the 61 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 4: energy sector from the real world of getting things done 62 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 4: and then the academic world of thinking about getting things done. 63 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 4: And it hopefully is useful for the students because it 64 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 4: shows in different pathways by which we might scale up solutions. 65 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 4: Some of the students want to become investors, are in 66 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 4: the investor world, or want to launch own startups and 67 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 4: seek investment, so maybe it is a pathway to help 68 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 4: them chase their dreams. And from the investor side, we're 69 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 4: always looking for the next innovator, the next great entrepreneur, 70 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 4: the next great team to invest in, the next great technology. 71 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 4: And so being involved in the world academia, which is 72 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 4: not just University Texas because I go visit students the 73 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 4: universities helps us cast the net wider to find those 74 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 4: great ideas that just need capitalization and then they'll change 75 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 4: the world. So hopefully everybody benefits from this. 76 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: Okay, so a bit of a scout as well, totally. 77 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, scouting for talent, scouting for technologies and teams, scouting 78 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 4: for ideas from the venture investment side, but then also 79 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 4: for the students, trying to help them scout for money, 80 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 4: which might be energy by partners, but there are other 81 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 4: queen tech funds out there, And this is sort of 82 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 4: the thing I've realized in a very optimistic way, is 83 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 4: that there are plenty of good ideas. We've got a 84 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 4: lot of good ideas out there. It's just a matter 85 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 4: of capitalizing the right ones, and then the markets will 86 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 4: take over and we'll all be fine. 87 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, we can talk about how you do that and 88 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: what are the so paramises you're maybe having to apply 89 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 3: all the criteria using. I love the fact that you 90 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 3: describe it as fun as well what you do. It's 91 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 3: very fun. 92 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 4: I would say there's a lot of reason to have 93 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 4: doom and gloom around climate change that kind of thing. 94 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 4: But I'm an optimist. I really think we've got this. 95 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 4: I think we're going to solve it. I think we're 96 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 4: going to solve it more profitably and quickly than people expect. 97 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 4: I think we'll end up looking kind of seamless when 98 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 4: we flash forward fifty years and look backwards. I just 99 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 4: very optimistic. And one of the reason I'm optimistic is 100 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 4: because I have the honor and privilege of teaching hundreds 101 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 4: of students a year and they're great, They've got so 102 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 4: many ideas. And then as an investor, we see the startups. 103 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 4: They have to present their ideas to us. It's not 104 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 4: a great idea, so it's hard to come away unenthused 105 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 4: and in the. 106 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: End is fun. That's interesting. 107 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: I mean that enthusia on the optimism that you get 108 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 3: from the younger people as well the generations coming in. 109 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 3: That's good to hear and that's what gives a lot 110 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 3: of energy to the whole idea of the energy transition. 111 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 3: But then you've got these legacy systems right, and that 112 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 3: goes for the investment community as much as the for 113 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 3: the industrial network. As long as you defer the power 114 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: grade and so on. Isn't the sort of a clash 115 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 3: there that are we going to be able to change? 116 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 2: Not the people. 117 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 3: The people are changing obviously and the mindset is changing, 118 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 3: but the infrastructure and the industry. 119 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: Resistance we have. 120 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, there are two reasons for optimism and one reason 121 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 4: for pessimism. So the two reasons for optimism as I'm 122 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 4: an engineer, and to be an engineer means you have 123 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 4: to be a problem solver. To be a problem solver 124 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 4: means you have to believe the problem can be solved. 125 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 4: You have to be optimistic to solve a problem. And 126 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 4: then investors and investors have to be optimistic too. You're 127 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 4: essentially investing in the future, so you have to be 128 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 4: optimistic that the future will take you to a profitable 129 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 4: are prosperous play. So optimism is at the root of 130 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 4: the venture side of me and the engineer aside of me. 131 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 4: But the reasons why we might have pessimism. 132 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: Is for what you just said. 133 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 4: There's a lot of legacy infrastructure and can we leverage 134 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 4: it or do we have to replace it? And if 135 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 4: you look at just a natural gas industry, just natural 136 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 4: gas pipelines, compressors, tank some power plants in the United States, 137 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 4: it is something like eight trillion dollars worth of capital investment. 138 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 4: Maybe it's depreciated like two troyon or something like that, 139 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 4: but the United States is one fifth of the world's 140 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 4: natural gas infrastructure, so it's like forty trillion dollars is 141 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 4: the value of the capital if we had to build 142 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 4: it tonight for the gas infrastructure around the world, and 143 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 4: then you had an oil and coal and nuclear other things. 144 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 4: So clearly there's many tens of triyans or hundreds of 145 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 4: trillions of dollars of stuff in the ground that we 146 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 4: built up over the last one hundred and fifty years, 147 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 4: and the question for society and the markets and entrepreneurs 148 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 4: and finance and policy is do we get to leverage 149 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 4: what we've already built or do we. 150 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: Have to replace it? 151 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 4: And if we had to replace it, that probably will 152 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 4: be more expensive than leveraging what we built, at least 153 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 4: that's my view. And so anytime you can have an 154 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 4: existing solution or a new solution that leverages existing capabilities 155 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 4: probably gets to market faster. Dropping fuels for pipelines, or 156 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 4: hydrogen blends with methane or even using hydrogen to form 157 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 4: methane that you'll move through the pipes, or fuels that 158 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 4: have the same compatibilities with the materials you might need, 159 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 4: or using right of ways for transmission lines or existing 160 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 4: coal power plant sites for geothermal or small mondu reactors. 161 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 4: Leveraging is more efficient if you can do it. The 162 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 4: risk of what I just said, though, is the incumbents 163 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 4: own it might not be on board with that change, 164 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 4: or I'm pretty happy with the current system, or would 165 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 4: just rather not do it, or something like that. So 166 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 4: the inherent legacy mats might slow us down. So if 167 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 4: we're looking for a reason to be pessimistic. That's one 168 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 4: that this is different than software. Right, Software, if you 169 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 4: make a new app, you can scale up and send 170 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 4: it around the world tomorrow. 171 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: It's by hitting send. 172 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,119 Speaker 4: With energy, you've got to do either wires and poles 173 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 4: or pipes or something. They're still on the ground and 174 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 4: so that builds in a delay and gives an advantage 175 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 4: to encompensate. 176 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 177 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, so people are optimistic. I suppose the IRA is coming, 178 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 3: so there's some more money in there. But the sort 179 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 3: of the volume of capital we're talking about it is 180 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 3: absolutely massive. 181 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: It's big. 182 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, and the US government maybe can be a big investor, 183 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 4: but should be a tenth or fifth of the market 184 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 4: or something. 185 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:32,239 Speaker 2: You really has to be private. 186 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 4: Markets have to take over and so they can just 187 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 4: get things nudge, but they can get the ball rolling downhill. 188 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: Then it becomes an avalanche. Right. 189 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the okay, exciting thing, and we've seen that 190 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 4: happened many, many times with many technologies, including an energy 191 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 4: where the government either by spending or. 192 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: Policy as a first mover, then the markets take over. 193 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 3: That's interesting. So that's where the investment fund comes in, right, Yeah. 194 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: Energy Investment Plan sixty seven or sixty sixty to seventy investments. 195 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 3: I think the largest investment I could find was two 196 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty million. So these these are small startups. 197 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 3: These are things that hopefully going to snow at some point. 198 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 3: But let's look up, maybe, what are the criteria, what 199 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 3: parameters really do you apply nowadays looking at something that's 200 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 3: going to transform this system so rapidly. What are the 201 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: most promising things that you're really looking forward? 202 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 4: It's a great question. So overall, there are several different 203 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 4: funds within Energy Impact Partners, and some focus more on 204 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 4: scaling up ideas that already improved. What's more focused on 205 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 4: the business risk aspose of the technology risk. At the 206 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 4: Frontier fund, we're focused more on the technical risk, not 207 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 4: the business risk, and therefore we'll be earlier stage Series A, 208 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 4: maybe Series B sometimes seed projects that are earlier. We 209 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 4: have funds focused on activity in Europe, with some focus 210 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 4: on non traditional entrepreneurs. We have a credit fund, we 211 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 4: have an infrastructure fund, so we have different stages at 212 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 4: capital at different risk profiles. All organize around energy transition, 213 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 4: so we're all about energy, making energy better, which could 214 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 4: in some cases include things like more robust wires and polls. 215 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 4: For transmission systems sometimes it's better cybersecurity systems, and for 216 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 4: Frontier Fund it's deep decarbonization, so it's all energy transition. 217 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 4: We have different areas of focus within the different funds 218 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 4: and different technology risk sort of appetites. Twohndre and fifty 219 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 4: million dollars is a big investment that is not typical. 220 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 4: Typical Series A investment might be four to twelve million 221 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 4: dollars for the Frontier Fund. Earlier stage companies where they've 222 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 4: got some good intellectual property, maybe they've demonstrated in the lab, 223 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 4: they're going to their first pilot scale demonstration, or they've 224 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 4: done their first pilot, doing a larger pilot, something like that. 225 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 4: So we're looking for upside potential. Must be disruptive, must 226 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 4: have the ability to really displace or avoid a lot 227 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 4: of CO two emissions, and we're really focused on emissions. 228 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 4: There are a lot of great ideas around sustainability, like Circularity, 229 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 4: we won't invest because we're really around energy and climate, 230 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,599 Speaker 4: not sustainability, even though it's an investable idea and a 231 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 4: great company, we often don't do those investments. And there 232 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 4: are some companies that have a lot of technical risk, 233 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 4: but they're too big already. It's hard for us to 234 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 4: If it's already a two billion dollar company, even if 235 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 4: they have a lot of technical risk, then we're already 236 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 4: priced out of the market. Or some of the bigger ones, 237 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 4: they might not be a fit for us because there's 238 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 4: not enough business restaurant, enough upside potential. So they just 239 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 4: kind of meet our criteria. In the end, we're investing 240 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 4: in teams, not technologies. I really we have to believe 241 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 4: in the team, and the team has to be innovative. 242 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 4: They have to know how to run a company, like 243 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 4: a bad CEO can really tank a company. And so 244 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 4: we really think about the quality of the team. And 245 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 4: if we believe the technology, we believe the market space, 246 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 4: we believe the pathway, but we don't believe in the 247 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 4: team we want to invest. 248 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fascinating. 249 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 3: So there's the people skills, right does that scout scouting 250 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 3: part of your role as well. 251 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 4: In the end, it's the most important determined whether we invest, 252 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 4: because even if it's a great team with so so, 253 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 4: technology will be tempted and we think, well, we see 254 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,439 Speaker 4: other technologies really good, maybe this team can. 255 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 2: Look at that. 256 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 3: So what can what should a great team be able 257 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 3: to do and be able to prove there's being on board. 258 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 4: So certainly by the time they come to us, they've 259 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 4: already proved they have some innovation, they have some idea. 260 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 4: Usually they have a patent or some intellectual property portfolio 261 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 4: that gives them the ability to move in the markets 262 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 4: and protect their ideas. So a lot of it will 263 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 4: be innovation is the key to get to us. But 264 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 4: then we wonder can they grow and can they scale? 265 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 4: Can they keep the harmony in the team? If they 266 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 4: come to us and they have seven people but they're 267 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 4: going to grow to forty, Well that's a pretty difficult 268 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 4: thing for a company to do, and is that the 269 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 4: right management? 270 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: Can they do it or not? 271 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 4: And a lot of times they can, And so we 272 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 4: just have to look at that. Or they're all technologists 273 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 4: of this company, but they need to add HR or 274 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 4: legal finance, they need to add other skills. So we'll 275 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 4: look a lot at the team and people who've done 276 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 4: it before. Of track record is very appealing. 277 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 2: Right, the record is quite bold usiness. Yeah, we have 278 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: this vision. 279 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 4: I teach entrepreneurship for freshmen at the university, by the way, 280 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 4: and they're eighteen year old nineteen year olds coming in, 281 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 4: and if you ask them what does an entrepreneur look like, 282 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 4: see all the stereotypes come through. They think it's a 283 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 4: white male from the Bay Area who wears a hoodie 284 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 4: and is twenty one years old at college drop out. 285 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 4: And we'll say, okay, name some college dropout successful entrepreneurs, 286 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 4: and they'll say Bill Gates and Michael Dell and Steve 287 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 4: Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg. And I'll say, okay, name four more, 288 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 4: and they can't because most entrepreneurs are forty or older. 289 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 4: They have experience, they know what they're doing, and they're 290 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 4: much more diverse than you think than what TV tells you. 291 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 4: And so we're looking for that. It's that we're going 292 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 4: to make a big investment in a college drop like 293 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 4: this kind of thing is. It makes for great TV, 294 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 4: but it's actually quite rare, and especially in the energy 295 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 4: space where it's so complex, we want people with operational experience, 296 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 4: so they tend to be older and more experience. But 297 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 4: they say that I've been in the power sector for 298 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 4: twenty five years and here's the problem I'm trying to 299 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 4: solve it. I was an oil and gas I know 300 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 4: how to do drilling and now I'm going to apply 301 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 4: it to geothermal. We want that experience because energy is 302 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 4: so risky and so complex. You want someone who has 303 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 4: intuition built from years of making mistakes out in the field. 304 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, real will experiences. But you're teaching entrepreneurship, I am. Yeah, 305 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: I teach that as well. 306 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 4: So it's actually so I teach entrepreneurship, I teach energy, 307 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 4: and I teach thermo dynamics, which we call thermo dynamics. 308 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 4: It's a it's a weed out class, Franger, it's really hard, 309 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,599 Speaker 4: enduring class. But so I teach the freshman entrepreneurship, and 310 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 4: I've actually told them I'm not sure I can teach entrepreneurship. 311 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 4: I'm not sure it can be taught, but I think 312 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 4: it can be learned, which is a fascinating thing. I 313 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 4: can teach them. I've got you laid on them. Yes, really, 314 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 4: it can be learned. I'm not sure it can be taught, 315 00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 4: but I'll teach you what I know and the certain 316 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 4: things to know about performers and finances and what are 317 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 4: the terms of what's total addressable market or TAM or 318 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 4: the different things that we use abscribe the entrepreneurial opportunity, 319 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 4: and I sort of met up front that this is 320 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 4: the only class I've taught for almost a decade. No howur, 321 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 4: I'm not't even sure I can or should be. But 322 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 4: the students come out of it really loving the course, 323 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 4: and I guess one of the main ideas with the 324 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 4: entrepreneurship with the class is anyone could be an entrepreneur, 325 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 4: but it's almost up to you whether you are wired 326 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 4: that way or want it. And a lot of students 327 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 4: leave the course thinking I don't want to be an entrepreneur. 328 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 4: That's actually very valuable too. 329 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: That's very by the way. 330 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, And so at thirty students maybe ten emerge 331 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 4: thinking oh yeah this is for me. Ten emerging and 332 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 4: yeah I could do this, and ten are like not 333 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 4: for me. 334 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: That's fine. 335 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 3: So well, to recognize that early on is pretty pretty 336 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 3: usefulvery nice. 337 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. 338 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: But from what you're saying before, it's also about the team. 339 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 3: So entrepreneurships is also about networking and having having the 340 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 3: team to work with, right or is that something that 341 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 3: comes off with. 342 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, network is important. So can you build the right team, 343 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 4: can you identify the right skills, can you manage the team? 344 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 2: Well? 345 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 4: Can you set realistic goals. You want to push the team. 346 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 4: You have to hit your milestones. In startups that we 347 00:13:58,240 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 4: love to see are the ones that say here's our plan. 348 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: They hit their milestones. 349 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 4: That means their plan is very realistic and that they 350 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 4: are able to make progress towards the goal and they're 351 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 4: not having to have down rounds or go ask for 352 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 4: more money unexpected because things didn't go the way they 353 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 4: want it. So you just want people who can you 354 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 4: can plan and then execute. But that's hard to plan 355 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 4: and execute if you're in an innovative space because you 356 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 4: don't always know how it's going to go. There's a 357 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 4: lot of risk, especially for these early stage companies, and 358 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 4: you have to build in room for that kind of 359 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 4: risk for failing living with that. Yes, yeah, exactly, which 360 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 4: is why it's venture investing. It's a different kind of 361 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 4: risk profile than say a big one. 362 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 3: Again risk profiles because you've got the Decarbonization Frontier Fund 363 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 3: now as a Duke Energy and First Energy in Microsoft 364 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: are invested in that fund. What sort of investment horizons 365 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 3: are aiming form with it? 366 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 2: From what does it? What does it do? 367 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 3: Is it deep decarbonization? And in a way with companies 368 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 3: like those coming in Duke Energy, First Engine, Microsoft. Are 369 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 3: their criteria for investing in this sort of fund different, 370 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 3: Their requirements different from what you normally get. 371 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 4: So our investors don't get to dictate to us where 372 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 4: we invest. We do it based on ours, so there's 373 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 4: independence on them well to think about what's the future 374 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 4: of energy and what are the market opportunities and does 375 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 4: it start up meet the criteria for our investments or not. 376 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 4: The frontier font in particular, has a longer horizon. Deep 377 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 4: de carversation is going to take a little longer, so 378 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 4: what do you have it a longer but like fifteen 379 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 4: years instead of eight years, Like we're thinking longer in 380 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 4: the future, a longer investment window than a longer harvest 381 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 4: which years doesn't sound very much when you're talking about 382 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 4: the comonanization that doesn't know, I think that's such little bit. 383 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 4: Typical venture investing will be five to eight years or something, right, 384 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 4: So it's longer horizon than typical venture And we see 385 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 4: this sort of rising tide lifts all bo like we 386 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 4: think the energy sector is where a lot of the 387 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 4: investment's going to go for a few decades. There will 388 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 4: be a lot of opportunity for prosperity while bringing people secure, cheap, reliable, 389 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 4: meaner energy. I think this is very exciting to be 390 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 4: part of that. But the horizons like you just to 391 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 4: be practical, you have to get out of the lab. 392 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 4: You have to have a pilot, you have to scale 393 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 4: up your pilot. You have to get customers, you have 394 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 4: to get a track record, then you get more customers. 395 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 4: It just takes a while in energy in a way 396 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 4: that we're not used to from say software or the 397 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 4: seven detector world. 398 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 3: Is this something that do kenergy for example, or these 399 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: investments in this fund. Is this something they're particularly aware of? 400 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 3: Is it something what are they what are there just 401 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 3: for the returns or something else? 402 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 4: Getting there are different. We have some pure financial investors 403 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 4: they see that we're making better returns or we're going 404 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 4: to have an opportunity for better returns. Others and they 405 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 4: put their money in. They just want to get their 406 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 4: money out. So there's some it's purely financial. But for 407 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 4: others who are in the energy sector, there's value beyond 408 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 4: the finances because they need to understand the change that's coming, 409 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 4: because they might need to be the early customers or 410 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 4: adopters of it and the change might be a threat 411 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 4: to their business models, and therefore it's better for them 412 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 4: to evolve and be nimble. I think it's the idea, 413 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 4: and so it really sort of thinks about turning the 414 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 4: requirements to track innovation from a cost center into a 415 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 4: profit center as a way to think about it, Like 416 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 4: all these utilities, these major NY companies, they spend money 417 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 4: just keeping track of where innovation is. And one way 418 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 4: to do that is to try out the technologies yourself 419 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 4: with different pilot programs and that kind of thing. So 420 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 4: so there's a real intellectual value to getting a front 421 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 4: row seat to what kinds of investments are going on. 422 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 3: So it gives them a little window into some of 423 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 3: these things as well. Some of these companies are Yeah, 424 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 3: they might have trouble finding the startups, but we see 425 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 3: that thands of startups, so we can tell them the 426 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 3: space you do. Yeah, yeah, and so, and that's valuable 427 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 3: for these companies that wish to innovate right now or 428 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 3: will be adopters of it. And I think this is 429 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: the ones who want to be nimble and aren't stuck 430 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 3: in their nineteen fifties view of what their business model 431 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 3: should be and that's that's changed rapidly, Ablows, isn't it 432 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 3: so energy in for some pond? Is is it the 433 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 3: energy sector basically that you look into the Yeah. 434 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 4: So we are energy oriented. We look at energy transition, 435 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 4: different elements of risk profile versus business, risk for technology 436 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 4: versus business, but all about energy transition. And then Frontier 437 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 4: find more deep decarbonzation within the energy sector. But it's 438 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 4: not always around energy production. Sometimes it's a new energy 439 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 4: consuming technology that might make fertilizers in a more efficient 440 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 4: way but would save a lot of energy at the 441 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 4: massive fertilizer plants. So we invested in a small company 442 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 4: called Nitricity, making nitage to based fertilizers at the farm 443 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 4: and strib to wigh and so sometimes this on the 444 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 4: consumption side, sometimes it's on the production side. And we're 445 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 4: also looking at the transportation side, moving electrons or molecules from. 446 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: Place to place. How do we move it? 447 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,239 Speaker 4: Do we move it in carriers, move by pilpy, move 448 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 4: by wire or whatever. So we look all up and 449 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 4: down the energy sector, but including the consumers, not just 450 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 4: the production. 451 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 2: You're also an author. 452 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 3: I'm an author going to bring your books into this 453 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 3: as well. The ones I know of probably many other 454 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 3: things you've writen, but you've written something called Power Trip, 455 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 3: The Story of Energy, that was published in twenty nineteen 456 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 3: and also first for part energy, Water and Human Survival, 457 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 3: which is sort of for me, another demonstration of you 458 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 3: bridging that gap between the theoretical world and maybe the 459 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 3: consumer and the real world of business and investment. 460 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 2: And so one. 461 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 3: Is that gap inevitable basically or is it a gap 462 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 3: or is it actually a zone of creativity that you 463 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 3: occupied where you're sitting between investment and education. 464 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 4: Well, I feel like I have the privilege to see 465 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 4: many different lines of sight with that story. Where do 466 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 4: think about it with the different parts of the energy world, 467 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 4: the industrial world, the investor world, the academic world. And 468 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 4: by having that position where I see these things or anything, 469 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 4: I feel like I could tell the stories that maybe 470 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 4: we'll capture other people and reach other audiences, and a 471 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 4: lot of people will read books. And that book actually 472 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 4: aways turned it into our six part PBS documentaries. Yes, 473 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 4: so people, somebodys prefer to watch it on TV. I 474 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 4: supposed to read the book, but we've reached through the 475 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 4: book and the television series probably ten million people, and 476 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 4: so it's a very different way to sort of evangelize 477 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 4: around energy. And I'm very pro energy and I'm very 478 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 4: sad about energy. I want other people to share my 479 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 4: passion enthusiasm, and so the books your way to make 480 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 4: the story as accessible because not everyone wants to be 481 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 4: a physicist s or an engineer or a finance person. 482 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 4: And so by putting into story form, narrative form, having 483 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 4: these anecdotes and these historical nuggets, it's more useful for people. 484 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 4: We get more people on board with energy. It's important, 485 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 4: it's cross cutting. Energy is changing, and this is very exciting, 486 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 4: and so the books are a. 487 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 2: Way to do that. 488 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 4: And I've got other book projects I'm working on and 489 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 4: Power Trip the TV series has season two coming out 490 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 4: in September actually, so we did six hour long episodes 491 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 4: before and now I got six more episodes coming out 492 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 4: town and so it's just a way to reach more people. 493 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 4: And it's kind of the professor's side of me, the 494 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 4: teaching side. I want to teach people about energy. It's 495 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 4: a way I do that. That's storytelling. It's really important, 496 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 4: isn't it. I think getting the message out and is 497 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 4: a little chalnge we all face because the energy transition 498 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 4: is one of the biggest stories around. I mean, what 499 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 4: is bigger than the climate change and the anti transitions soon? 500 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. 501 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 4: I think it's the defining sort of sectoral growth for 502 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 4: the next thirty years, defining challenge for the century. 503 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: So I think it is important. It's a big opportunity too. 504 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: But I wonder if it's becoming harder actually to communicate 505 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 3: that narrative around the agency and what's going on. I'm 506 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 3: thinking of the controversy around the ESTIE for example, and 507 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 3: you know this pushback against some of the innovation has 508 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 3: been in the investment world. 509 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: Would what do you think about it? Is it becoming 510 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 2: harder or is it becoming easy? 511 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's more land minds in the language. We have 512 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 4: to watch out for. The audiences will arrive into a 513 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 4: room where maybe I'm giving a seminar or something in 514 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 4: the different viewpoints before I've ever spoken, and it does 515 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 4: seem us more complex. But there's been a divide over 516 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 4: climate change for a long time, so I've been at 517 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 4: this for a couple of decades. There's been a generational 518 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 4: divide where older people tend to care less about climate 519 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 4: change than the younger people. And now we also have 520 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 4: a political divide there depending on who you vote for 521 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 4: might effect what kind of things you're hearing and whether 522 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 4: you care or not. So there's a lot of loaded 523 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 4: terminology words that if you say this, people interpret differently 524 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 4: depending on how they vote or where they live or 525 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 4: where they sit in the room and this kind of thing, right, 526 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 4: And so it does feel like it's a lay mind 527 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 4: talk about it and ESG is part of it, Climate 528 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 4: change is part of it. 529 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 2: Fossil fuels, renewables. 530 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 4: People wear their jerseys for whatever side they're on, and 531 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 4: they feel like they have to choose the side of 532 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 4: fossil fuels or choose the side of renewables or something. 533 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: They become bondstand in some of these ways. Totally. 534 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And it's like a marker what team you're on. 535 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 4: And I'm like, no, no, we need energy and we want 536 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 4: energy to clean, safe and reliable. Let's figure out the 537 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 4: different ways to get there. And so it's a challenge, 538 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 4: I would say, for sure, it's a challenge, and it's 539 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 4: gotten worse on social media. 540 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: In many ways. Social media. Stay clear on social media. 541 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 4: I'm on social media a lot, and I think, I think, 542 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 4: I say my most regrettable things on social media. But 543 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 4: I reach a different audience that way as well. Yeah, 544 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 4: and there's some people who might follow me on Twitter 545 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 4: but aren't going to read a book or watch TV 546 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 4: or whatever. So it is a challenge for sure, despite 547 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 4: the challenge of getting the language right and reaching these 548 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 4: different audiences, for the most part, things are changing anyway, 549 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 4: especially this cultural change where because younger people, as they 550 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 4: get older, are taking positions of authority, they're serious about it, 551 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 4: and as older people who were not serious retire their 552 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 4: voice full matter less. So it seems like it's really happening, 553 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 4: and it feels like the pace. 554 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: Is picking up. Frankly, they just have a different worldview. 555 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 3: Maybe, as I'm witkingly, we've given you circumstances led them 556 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 3: to a different world view totally. 557 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 4: So when I think of these suits, I've taught thousands 558 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 4: of students in person, and I've taught thousands of people, 559 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 4: probably ten thousand people at. 560 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 2: This point online. 561 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 4: So I've taught a lot of students, and they really 562 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 4: see it as their Cold War, their multi decade generation 563 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 4: defining challenge. That means that peace and prosperity on the line, 564 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 4: and they have to win it is a fascinating thing 565 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 4: to see in the same solutions will be We need 566 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 4: technical innovation, we need collaboration, we need stronger institutions, the 567 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 4: same answers for the Cold War, the same answers for 568 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 4: climate change. And the students right, and they said, this 569 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 4: is my career. I'm spend thirty forty years doing it. 570 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 4: And my mentor when I was undergrad was a Cold warterer. 571 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 4: He spent his entire career trying to win the Cold War. 572 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 4: It was his career defining thing. And I see that 573 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 4: repeating with students. And what's funny if you think of 574 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 4: it like the Cold War, maybe even World War two. 575 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 4: At some point it doesn't matter what it costs. You 576 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 4: think peace and prosperity on the line to win doesn't 577 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 4: matter what a cost. And then what you find out 578 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 4: when you win is that was the economically beneficial path anyway. 579 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 4: It was good for the economy to win World War Two, 580 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 4: it was good for the economy to win the Cold War. 581 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 4: It will be good for the economy, and already is 582 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 4: good for the economy to tackle climate change. 583 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 2: That's the way they see it. And I like, I'll 584 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 2: power to you. We need you so it's really fantastic. 585 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting idea that it can give 586 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 3: some sort of direction to whole careers. So back to 587 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 3: the reality of investment. I suppose I was going to 588 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 3: ask you about the technologies that you find most interesting 589 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 3: that are coming up over the next few years. But 590 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 3: let's take bankability is the point that they need to reach. 591 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 3: What is it the most excites you about? What's the 592 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 3: innovations that you're looking at at the moment, but in 593 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 3: terms of what actually is not too far out of 594 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 3: there but is realizable within the next there are so many 595 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 3: exciting First of all, the first excitement is there are 596 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 3: so many good ideas, Like that is just like an 597 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 3: overwhelming thing. 598 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 4: Like, oh wow, there's a lot of good ideas that 599 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 4: you don't get to see if you're not an investor. 600 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 4: Because if you're an investor, people want your money. They've 601 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 4: all show you their ideas, and so there's more good 602 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 4: ideas than I realize, which is a good thing. I guess, Okay, 603 00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 4: there's a lot of ideas, which ones are going to 604 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 4: cap There are very exciting ones that we know will 605 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 4: change the world if they work, like fusion everyone vision. Yeah, 606 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 4: and we have invested in sapp Energy, We have invested 607 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 4: in fusion. If fusion works, it will change the world. 608 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 4: We all know that that's a big one. That's a 609 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 4: big one, though, very big one. Yeah, And it's also 610 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 4: hard to invest early stage because fusion companies, as they 611 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 4: make progress, come worth billions of dollars very quickly, so 612 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 4: it's hard for a venture fund. 613 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: Then how likely is that to come together? 614 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 4: That it's unlikely a small likelihood, but its impact would 615 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 4: be so largely you just have to invest. So in fact, 616 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 4: there's been Bolti articles and Bloomberg just like two days 617 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 4: ago all about the fusion companies out there that might change. 618 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: The world pretty so many of them. Yeah. 619 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 4: So there's a lot more at Tension in Bluemberg and 620 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 4: other outlets really covering this. 621 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: Which I think is really exciting. So it's become kind 622 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 2: of mainstream. 623 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 4: Doesn't mean we'll have a fusion plant next year, so 624 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 4: it could be many years, a decade, right, But it's 625 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 4: exciting to see private. 626 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 2: Money coming to it, not just goverment money. That's exciting. 627 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 4: I'm excited about energy storage. Energy storage has been this 628 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 4: solution for. 629 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: Like twenty years. 630 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 4: We've been saying for twenty years if we just had 631 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 4: a better battery for a better way to do stories right. 632 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 4: And it feels like the markets have answered with lithium 633 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 4: ion batteries for our smartphones and electric cards, But there 634 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 4: are other chemistries out there that either don't degrade or 635 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 4: have longer duration. We have vested in companies like Form Energy, 636 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 4: which is a long duration battery. So this is very 637 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 4: citing in the energy storage space. Another area of excitement 638 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 4: for me that's really interesting is around hydrogen. And hydrogen's 639 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 4: fascinating for me because the hydrogen's come and gone many times, 640 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 4: oh many times. I mean if you go back to 641 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 4: the eighteen hundreds in Phantom of the Opera and if 642 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 4: you read the book or seen the movie. But they 643 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 4: the author guests On wrote in nineteen ten about the 644 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 4: late eighteen hundreds Paras opera house how they use hydrogen 645 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 4: methane blends to change the brightness of the stage lighting. 646 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 4: So we talked today about hydrogen methane blends as innovative 647 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 4: and world changing, and in fact, French authors had tackled 648 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 4: that by the eighteen eighties, and Jules Verne wrote about 649 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 4: in the eighteen seventies with the mysterious islon. We're using 650 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 4: hydrogen from water and electrol system run a fuel cell, 651 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 4: so hygroen. It's not new, but it's attracting some private 652 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 4: capital and there's new ways to go about it. And 653 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 4: for me, I was a professional hydrogen skeptic for about 654 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 4: ten years. 655 00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:58,679 Speaker 2: When you read it. 656 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 4: Thousand and seven in twenty eighteen, I just why were 657 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 4: you think? Why it's just so thermodyamically stupid to take electricity, 658 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 4: to split water to make electricity, And I just was 659 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 4: really critical, like it's not an original resource. It is 660 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 4: something you have to extract from other resource. Doesn't make sense. 661 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 4: But then twenty eighteen, as I started to work with 662 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 4: engine I realized how many different ways there are. 663 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: To make and use hydrogen. This is NG Energy in Paris, France. 664 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 4: I was their chief science and technology officer and we 665 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 4: had a hydrogen laburnize meaning of the team. 666 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 2: I just kind of have my eyes opened up. 667 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 4: Okay, there's more to hydrogen than using a coal fire 668 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 4: power plant to split water to make electricity, and in particular, 669 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 4: there are many ways to make hydrogen, so electrolysis, use electricity, 670 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 4: split water gets a lot of the headlines. Seam methane 671 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 4: reforming actually is where we make a lot of our hydrogen, 672 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 4: and actually coal gasifications another one, so cold natural gas 673 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 4: or where we make our hydrogen today. Maybe we'll make 674 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 4: it from electrolysis in the future, but there are other 675 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 4: ways to make it. There's pyrolysis and photolysis and radiolysis 676 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 4: and catalysis and thermolysis. There are all these other paths 677 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 4: that are potentially much more efficient because there's a different feedstock. 678 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 4: They use degraded waste teat or something. They're not using 679 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 4: new energy. And so you start to open your mind 680 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 4: beyond the two pathways we see, or the third that's looming, 681 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 4: to all the ways you I make hydrogen. It gets 682 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 4: pretty exciting. And then you start to think of all 683 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 4: the ways we might use hydrogen. It gets pretty exciting. 684 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 4: And then if you think of all the excess really 685 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 4: cheap wind and solar electricity might have latrolls, it starts 686 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 4: to make sense. Now, I think hydrogen is not going 687 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 4: to place bulk energy, but there are things like chemicals 688 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 4: and industrial heat and aviation and marinehipping where hydrogen might 689 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 4: play a pretty important role. 690 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 2: So that's kind of exciting for us. And we're looking 691 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: at that as well. 692 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 3: What was interesting We'll saying what you said is that 693 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 3: up until twenty eighteen and in some of your eyes 694 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 3: were opened by being somewhere and going to a lab 695 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 3: and seeing something differently, and you had a career in 696 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 3: this obviously the guy you brought it out to make 697 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 3: fun of hydrogen and then I went to a corporate 698 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 3: lab that was working on it. 699 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 4: And that's where it's good for me as a professor 700 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 4: to get into the real world, because the real world says, well, 701 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 4: I know you're skeptical, but here's the progress they made 702 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 4: in the last forty years. We've been look at this 703 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 4: for a while and I just learned a lot and 704 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 4: I'm sorry. Good for me to get that education. 705 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 3: That's fascinating. This is a fascinating We could probably go on. 706 00:27:58,720 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 3: We'll have to do another one at some point. 707 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 4: We know the one do and follow on this so 708 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 4: much to talk about energy as a rich topic. 709 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,239 Speaker 2: Hit to work with, Mike Webb. Thank you so much 710 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: for your time. Thank you so much. 711 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: Bloomberg n EF is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance 712 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: LP and its affiliates. This recording does not constitute, nor 713 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: should it be construed as investment advice, investment recommendations, or 714 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: a recommendation as to an investment or other strategy. Bloomberg 715 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: an EF should not be considered as information sufficient upon 716 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: which to base an investment decision. Neither Bloomberg Finance LP 717 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: nor any of its affiliates makes any representation or warranty 718 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: as to the accuracy or completeness of the information contained 719 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: in this recording, and any liability as a result of 720 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: this recording is expressly disclaimed.