1 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello everyone, it's Jr. In today's bonus episode, I'm 2 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: excited to share a special interview with a friend of mine. 3 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: He's a pilot who spent nearly six years as a 4 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: pow during the Vietnam War in Asel not far from 5 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: the Medal of Honor recipient, but Day Captain Charlie Plumb 6 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: is a retired US Navy fighter pilot who earned his 7 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: wings in nineteen sixty five. He went on to fly 8 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: seventy four successful combat missions over North Vietnam, making over 9 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: one hundred carrier landings. Then came his fateful seventy fifth mission. 10 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: It was May nineteenth, nineteen teen sixty seven. Charlie was 11 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: flying an F four Phantom Jet off the deck of 12 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: the aircraft carrier USS Katie Hawk. His mission that day 13 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: was a high risk alpha strike targeting a military complex 14 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: south of Hanoi, known by pilots as Little Detroit. He 15 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,919 Speaker 1: was just five days away from his scheduled return home 16 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: when he was shot down. If you listen to our 17 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: last episode, you'll remember that while he was a pow, 18 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: Bud Day expressed his courage through pure stoicism and steadfastness, 19 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: a belief in upholding the code of conduct above all else. 20 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: But Charlie is a model for another kind of courage, 21 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: a model based in forgiveness and unbelievable grace. I wanted 22 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: to talk to him to understand how a man who 23 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: endured years of brutal captivity could return to Vietnam decades 24 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: later and find common ground with the man who ordered 25 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: his torture, something unimaginable to many, including by Day. Here's 26 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: our conversation. So, Charlie, thank you so much for joining. 27 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: That is such a pleasure to have you on. How 28 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: are you doing. 29 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: I'm doing fine, Jr. On this honor to be with you. 30 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much. And I'd like to begin 31 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: before we get into the nearly six years that you 32 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: spent as a POW, I'd like to really get into 33 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: why you wanted to join the military. 34 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 2: I was a farm kid from Kansas, never been out 35 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: of the four states of Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri, never 36 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: seen the ocean, and age seventeen, I knew I needed 37 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: an education. My parents were poor. We didn't have running 38 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 2: water in the house until I was seven years old. 39 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: So at age seventeen, I knew my parents couldn't afford college, 40 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: and so I started looking for scholarships. I sent my 41 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: application to everybody I can think of, just a shotgun 42 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 2: aer and lo and behold, I got an appointment to Annapolis, 43 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: the Naval Academy. Well I had no idea what they 44 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: did in Annapolis. I really did not. And I like 45 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: to tell you that I had great aspirations of being 46 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 2: an admiral and commanding ships and squadrons around the world. 47 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: That's not true. I needed an education, and this was 48 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 2: a free one. And so got on that greyhound bussem 49 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: two days later. Just like you, I was pledging to 50 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 2: defend the Constitution United States against all enemies. That's how 51 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 2: I got into the military. 52 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: And so you joined the military. How soon after was 53 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: it for you where you realized, Okay, this is not 54 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: just going to be maybe a free education. There's going 55 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: to be a little bit more involvement here. 56 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: The day I actually showed up at Annapolis, I didn't 57 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: know how to salute or march or puld my socks. 58 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,119 Speaker 2: You know, it was quite a transition, you know, from 59 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: a farm kid from Kansas into a military uniform. I 60 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: looked back on those days and they were wonderful, but 61 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: they were not easy. 62 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: You know, you find yourself deployed on missions seventy four 63 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: missions talk us through seventy fifth. 64 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: I flew seventy four combat missions trying to protect the 65 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: air group from enemy fighters, and I had a couple 66 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 2: of ground support missions. But those are very difficult flights 67 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 2: for me because I knew I had to be accurate, 68 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: and so we went lower and took more risks when 69 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: we were supporting ground troops. And so I was five 70 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: days from the end of my tour of duty on 71 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: that seventy fifth mission. I mean, I felt like I 72 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: was bulletproof, over confident probably, and felt like I really 73 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: was the top gun. It was a big, big deal. 74 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: It's a big strike called an Alpha strike. We had 75 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 2: three aircraft carriers, one of which I was on, the Kittiehawk, 76 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 2: and five air force bases on these targets in Vietnam. 77 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: So I launched off the Kitty Hawk rendezvouoted twenty thousand feet, 78 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: took on another three or four thousand pounds of jet 79 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: fuel in an airborne tanker, and pointed the nose towards 80 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 2: the beach. Got in just south of Hanoi, the capital city, 81 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: the most heavily defended city in the world. At that 82 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: time my role was fighter escort and we came up 83 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: close to the target, thought we saw an enemy, and 84 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: we skirted out to the side of the formation, which 85 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 2: was my big mistake. Hit by a surface to air missile. 86 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: It exploded some twelve thousand pounds of jet fuel I 87 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: had in that airplane. Sent that bird a topsy turvey 88 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: endover and down towards the rice patty below. I ejected, 89 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 2: my copat had ejected, Our parachutes opened, and in ninety 90 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: seconds I went from king of the skies to scum 91 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 2: of the earth. Spent the next and three in communist 92 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: prison camps. 93 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: Wow, So you find yourself now as you're parachuting, What 94 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: is going through your mind in that moment? Talk me 95 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: through what is about to happen. 96 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 2: I was in shock. I truly was out of body, 97 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: almost watching this whole thing happen. And about that time 98 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: I find myself about waist deep in a rice patty, 99 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: and so my first thought was to my buddies. I 100 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 2: was a schedules officer in the squadron, and I had 101 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 2: a book coded for the names of all the pilots 102 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 2: and the missions that they were going on, and that 103 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: kind of thing. I did not want the enemy to 104 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: get a hold of that book. I pulled the book 105 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 2: out of my pocket and ripped up the pages eight, 106 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: about half of the pages the book. I took my 107 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: two way radio up because I could have called for help, 108 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: but I was so far into enemy territory that I 109 00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 2: knew that any rescue would probably be disastrous for the 110 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: guys in their helicopters coming in to get me. So 111 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: I made one call and said, see you guys at 112 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: the end of the war, Please don't try to rescue me. 113 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 2: Tore the antenna off the radio, through it one way 114 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: and through the radio the other way, and then I 115 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,239 Speaker 2: bowed my head and I said a prayer. I prayed 116 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: for my wife that she would understand this. 117 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't even imagine finding yourself in that 118 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: position and yet still have the awareness to take that 119 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: book and to take that radio, to throw it an 120 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: opposite end, to say your prayer just one of those 121 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: things that I think as myself and listeners of this 122 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: podcast are just in awe. So what's transpired that has 123 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: prepared you to have that type of awareness. 124 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 2: I don't remember actually thinking logically. It was all almost automatic. 125 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: Of course, I had been trained. I'd been through four 126 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: different survival camps, but at the end of it, I 127 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 2: think I learned more. In the sand is four years old, 128 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, you don't kick saying in the 129 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: other guy's face if he's bigger than you are. I mean, 130 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: all those schools I don't think prepared me just as 131 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: well as my upbringing. I had a very strong family. 132 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: I was a very optimistic person. I felt like there 133 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: was some kind of master plan that I was involved in, 134 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: and I might never know exactly what it was, but 135 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: I felt like that somebody or something was in more 136 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 2: control of this than I was. 137 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: So you land, how quickly did you find yourself now 138 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: being taken prisoner? 139 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: I ejected into a very populated area, so I was 140 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: captured immediately, they were right there. I haulowed me into 141 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: the prison camp, immediately interrogated, tortured for two days, and 142 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 2: of course code of conduct. As a lot of your 143 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: listeners will know, rank, scherl number, data birth, that's all 144 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 2: you're obliged to give to the enemy. I flew the 145 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: skies of Vietnam thinking I'm tough enough. I will never 146 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: give more the name, ranks, serial number to data birth. 147 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: I mean how old were you at this time when 148 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: this is happening. 149 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: I was twenty four, Okay. So after two days of 150 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 2: the torture, they primarily a bunch of ropes and irons, 151 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: and they waded us up like a human pretzel. I buckled, 152 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: and I never told them anything they could use. I 153 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: didn't know. I was a junior officer. They didn't tell 154 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: me secrets. But I certainly went farther than I had 155 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 2: intended to go. They tossed me into this little eight 156 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: foot by eight foot prison cell, eight feet long and 157 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: eight feet wide. There's no window. There's a door with 158 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 2: a flap in the door so that a guard could 159 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: come by at any moment and drop that flap and 160 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: see what you were doing. And of course we were 161 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 2: supposed to be sitting on our board bed thinking about 162 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 2: our sins against the North Vietnamese. Inside the cell, we 163 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 2: had a two gallon bucket he usually rusted out at 164 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,599 Speaker 2: the top with no top on it. Largely this was 165 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 2: our latrine. You got to empty that bucket about every 166 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 2: two or three days. It was very nice at all. 167 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 2: They delivered two meals a day, about ten and two. 168 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: We got a cup of rice each time, and sometimes 169 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: a cup of broth, and so I was alone and scared, 170 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: and I felt very guilty. Lucky for me, Well, it's 171 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: more than luck. I think it was providence. A fellow 172 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 2: two cells away passed a wire across a storeroom. The 173 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: cell between us was being used as a storeroom. He 174 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 2: passed this wire over the boxes, around the shovels, through 175 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 2: the ropes of the storeroom, and into the little hole 176 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 2: in my cell wall fourteen feet away. The wire scratched 177 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: on my concrete floor. I thought it was a cricket 178 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: at first, but I found it and I pulled on 179 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: the wire and it pulled back, and then it disappeared, 180 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 2: and man, I'm in real trouble. Now they've tricked me. 181 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: The wire came back about an hour later with a 182 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: note wrapped around the end of the wire. The note 183 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: was written on a dirty piece of toilet paper, and 184 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: just blobs on this piece of toilet paper, and I 185 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 2: could barely make it out, but it said, memorize this code, 186 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 2: then eat this note. Well, I'd volunteered for a lot 187 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 2: of things in the Navy, but I didn't know it 188 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: was going to come to this. So I did it. 189 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: The codes of five y five matrix of the alphabet, 190 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 2: indicating any letter would be represented by two numbers number 191 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 2: of the line than the number of the row. So 192 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: A is one one, Z is five to five. We 193 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 2: left out K, substituted C for a K. So a 194 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 2: very cumbersome code. But I started tugging on the wire 195 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 2: and the guy on the other ends had designated various 196 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: letters of the alphabet by certain numbers of tugs. I 197 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: talked for him for a while. Bob Shoemaker passed me 198 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: some very important information. He said, you will find that 199 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: you've joined the finest team you'll ever play on. He said, 200 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: barn None, I don't care where you go what you do. 201 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 2: This team of American fighter pilots like Jim Stockdale Medal 202 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: of Honah winner and Bud Day Medal of Vannah winner, 203 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 2: Leo Thurstness Medal of Vannah winner. In fact, we had 204 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: a total of five in that camp. Our leadership in 205 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: this prison camp is the best leadership you will ever 206 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: see the rest of your life. You will never see 207 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: leadership like this. Some of them have been there for 208 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 2: over two years when I showed up. Surely they know 209 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 2: something that I don't know. 210 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: It's incredible. I mean I think what I hear is 211 00:12:54,640 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: when given purpose, right, we show up and respond right. 212 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: And I think that's what I hear is purpose. 213 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a mission that our leadership had established 214 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: for us. Everything you do, every answery you make in 215 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 2: the torture room, everything you do has to be seen 216 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: through a prism of return with honor. And Shoemaker was 217 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: telling me this. I felt very ashamed. How can I 218 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: ever go home and face my family, my fellow fighter pilots, 219 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: the community and admit that I had failed in my 220 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 2: mission Because I did fail in my mission, and I 221 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: didn't do what I came there to do and what 222 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 2: I was proud to do when I did it. Suddenly 223 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 2: I am on the other side of this equation. I'm 224 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: a failure. And I paced three steps one way and 225 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 2: three steps the other in that eight foot by foot 226 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: prison cell, feeling guilty about what I had done. 227 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: We're gonna tell make a quick break. We're back with 228 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: Captain Charlie Plumb. He's just gotten in touch with other 229 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: captured US airmen in the camp, using a secret code 230 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: to talk to Bob Shoemaker, and he's realizing the gravity 231 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: of telling the enemy the information he has. 232 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: But I was convinced that there were other fighter pilots 233 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: in that prison camp, that they were all probably older 234 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: and more mature, they were better fighter pilots, and they 235 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: probably didn't stray from name, rank, sheryll, number, day to 236 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: birth like I did. That they had accomplished their mission 237 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: and I had failed. In mind, so pacing along, feeling 238 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: sorry for myself and blaming everybody I could think of, 239 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: I was blaming the enemy. I was blaming the guards 240 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 2: that tortured me. I was blaming the mechanics that put 241 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: the airplane together. Thinking that at the end of the war, 242 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: maybe I would go to some foreign country change my 243 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: name because I didn't want anybody to know how terribly 244 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 2: i'd failed. And finally I said, Bob, I have a 245 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: confession to make, and when I tell you what I did, 246 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: you might not want to communicate with me anymore, because 247 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: if our roles were reversed and you did what I did, 248 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to talk to you either. He said, 249 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: would you do, Plumber, there's my call sign Plumber. I said, 250 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: I failed. I broke. I'm sorry to tell you this, 251 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: but the torture was too great, and he tugged back 252 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: on the wire through the wall. He said, Hell, everybody broke. 253 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: There's not a man in his prison camp who was 254 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: as strong as he wanted to be what he expected 255 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: of himself. So get over it. We still have a 256 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: war to fight. We're going to pursue this war till 257 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: our last dying breath. I dropped the wire that somebody 258 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: else had gone through this experience and falling down but 259 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 2: then gotten right back up and pursued his mission. And 260 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: just their sharing with me, how they have responded to 261 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 2: the guilt and the pain and the misery that they 262 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: were going through with a strong sense of community, that 263 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: we were helping each other out. And so that was 264 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: sort of the beginning of my understanding that I had 265 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: to forgive myself for being so weak in the torture room. 266 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: You know, it seems like the opportunity to interact with 267 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: the other prisoners in that particular camp is essentially what 268 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: saved you. That brotherhood and that camaraderie, and how no 269 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: matter where you are, no matter what the conditions are, 270 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna be together, You're gonna stick together, You're gonna 271 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: show up for one another. 272 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Once I gained communication with the other guys, we 273 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: spent hours and hours on the wall, tugging on wires 274 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 2: or tapping on walls. And I think it's a great 275 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: lesson of life is lots of times we need help. 276 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 2: And your listeners will probably be surprised that in that 277 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 2: prison kit, I remember many times my stomach hurt from 278 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 2: laughing so hard. There was just an awful lot of 279 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: humor jokes, you know that. We would tell We even 280 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: numbered our jokes and you just come up with a 281 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 2: number of The guy knew the joke you were talking about, 282 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,959 Speaker 2: and then he would add a pun to the end 283 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 2: of the joke. And when your birthday came, man, your 284 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: buddies were giving you plates and plates of food and 285 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: an orchestra of play. And the birthday cake was always 286 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: the shape of a big aircraft carrier with girls hopping 287 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: out of the aircraft carrier. It was all in our mind. 288 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 2: It was all tapping on walls, but you always look forward. 289 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 2: But it worked. It worked. We were saving the lives 290 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: of each other, and we had a purpose in life. 291 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 2: We had a goal and to keep that goal and 292 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 2: foremost in your mind, regardless of what you're going through. 293 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: I tell people all the time, Yes, the physical recovery 294 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: was obviously challenging, and I'm not going to dismiss that 295 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: overlook that, right, that's difficult. But for me personally in 296 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: my recovery and what I had to navigate the mental 297 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: that's where it's at, and what are some of the 298 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: daily things that you're saying to yourself to remember that 299 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: you're on the offensive. 300 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 2: So Shoemaker passed along to me patriotic quotes and Bible 301 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 2: verses and stories and jokes, and one of the little 302 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 2: poems that he sent across really turned me around. The 303 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 2: poem is this acid does more harm in the vessel 304 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 2: it stored, then on the side it's poured that wire 305 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: was a revelation to me the first time that a 306 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: young guard couldn't have been more than fourteen or fifteen 307 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: years old. He brought his girlfriend into my cell to 308 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 2: show her how tough he was. He hit me with 309 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 2: his rifle button, kicked me with his steel toed boots, 310 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: and she's back in the corner of my prisons, all 311 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 2: laughing and enjoying how tough her boyfriend was. And that 312 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 2: was tough for me to overcome, but that I couldn't 313 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: waller in this misery and pain because it wasn't doing 314 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: me any good at all. In fact, it was very harmful. 315 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 2: This acid that was within me wasn't hurting the enemy 316 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,239 Speaker 2: at all. It was destroying me. I thought, I'm not 317 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: going to do this to myself. I got to do 318 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 2: something to make this worthwhile. I found in that prison camp. 319 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 2: If you harbor this acid within you and you don't 320 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: forgive people, you're on a downhill slope. You're not going 321 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 2: to make it. And it's not hurting the enemy, It's 322 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 2: gonna kill me. It's gonna be more harmful than anything 323 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 2: I spew out towards the enemy or anybody else. I 324 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: looked around that eight foot by eight foot cell, with 325 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: the rats and the bugs and the filth. That wait 326 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 2: a minute, My restriction was not the eight feet between 327 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: the walls. It was the eight inches between my ears. 328 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 2: This was a mental game. I was in this mental box. 329 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 2: I designed this box by myself, and I recognized immediately 330 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: that I had to get out of that mental box. 331 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 2: That was the true restriction of what it was going through. 332 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: I'm gonna find some value in all of this pain. 333 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 2: And then I saw the value in forgiveness, and I 334 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: found great pleasure and joy and peace in that action 335 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: of forgiveness. Now just took a while, but eventually I 336 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 2: was ready to forgive the guards the torture me. I 337 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: was very forgive the camp commander. I was, and after 338 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 2: that life became a lot easier for me. 339 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: So here you are, twenty four years of life. I mean, 340 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: you were in captivity for nearly six years. I mean 341 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: over twenty one hundred days of doing this exercise, in 342 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: this work. I mean, is that enough to get you 343 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: through everything that you endured for nearly three years? 344 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 2: So we had no books to read, the windows to 345 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: look out, and no TV, telephone, we'd have any communication 346 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 2: with the outside world at all, And so especially in 347 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: solitary confinement, we were in our own heads, probably twenty 348 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 2: hours a day. That's all we had was ourselves. So 349 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 2: I went back through my life. I decided to try 350 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: to make an autobiography from the very beginning at three 351 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: and a half years old, a step by step, every day, 352 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: every book I'd ever read, every movie I sin, every 353 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,959 Speaker 2: teacher I ever had, every girl I ever dated. How 354 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: long do you think it took me to recapture every 355 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: memory in my life? About three months. I felt like 356 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 2: I had totally exhausted my entire memory database. But in 357 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: going back for the twenty four years that I had lived, 358 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: I tried to pick out the positive parts. Then I 359 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: decided to plan the future. I started to try to 360 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: figure out what I'd do, what kids my wife and 361 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 2: I would have together, where we would live, where we 362 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: would vacation, what kind of cars we would drive, all 363 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 2: this stuff for twenty years. Well, that took another three months, 364 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 2: and then I wasn't home. So I went back through 365 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 2: that future and replanned. So anyway, I'm telling you all 366 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: of the mental things that I came up with myself. 367 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, and when we're back, 368 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: Charlie goes home. When you came home, you were given 369 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: sort of this hero's welcome. How did that land with 370 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: you after nearly six years as a pow and during 371 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: everything you endured, coming home and being put up on 372 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: this platform of I'm a. 373 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 2: Hero coming home was a wonderful event. But we were 374 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: sure surprised, and they had organized ticker tape praise. They 375 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: gave me a brand new Ford, We got lifetime tickets 376 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: to World Series, and I think we had like two 377 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 2: hundred major gifts. One of my favorite was lazy boy 378 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: gave me a recliner, a leather recliner. Readers Digest had 379 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: produced a set of books called While You Were Not Here, 380 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 2: and each one of the books was one year of 381 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 2: things that had happened while we were there, And so 382 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: I got six volumes of this from nineteen sixty seven 383 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: to nineteen seventy three. It was a hero's welcome, but 384 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: we didn't feel like heroes. None of us felt like 385 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 2: heroes at all. The heroes were the guys that didn't 386 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 2: come back. The heroes are the civilians that waited for 387 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: us and prayed for us. And in a lot of cases, 388 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 2: you know, I think my wife had it tougher than 389 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 2: I did, but I knew I was alive every day. 390 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 2: I knew I was coming home every day. They didn't know. 391 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 2: And about half of us came home for divorces. My 392 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 2: poor wife had so tough, and she found another guy, 393 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 2: fell in love, and filed for divorce three months before 394 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 2: I came home. And so obviously another gut punch for me. 395 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: I'll never forget laying in that hospital room and Great 396 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 2: Lakes Naval Hospital in Chicago and thinking to myself, how 397 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 2: terrible this is, and I started blaming everybody I can 398 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 2: think of, blame her boyfriend. And it didn't take long 399 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 2: until I said, wait a minute, Wait a minute, you 400 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: hypocrypt You know that little poem about acid within you 401 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: hurts you or it hurts anybody else. Get over yourself. 402 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: Got a life to live, you know, Charlie. 403 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: There's something that keeps popping up to me, and I'm curious. 404 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: I keep hearing the word forgiveness throughout our conversation, and 405 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: forgiveness continue to be a theme over the course of 406 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: your life. But there's another element of this that you 407 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: had to really lean on. Talk to us about what 408 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: transpired ten years ago when you went back to Vietnam. 409 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 2: I was hounded by the guy who ran the history 410 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 2: department of University of Hanoi. He contacted me, Hey, I 411 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 2: want you to come back. We've got the camp commander 412 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 2: who wants to see a prisoner of war before he dies. 413 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: He was in charge of all of our torture. I 414 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 2: was surprised that any camp commander who had been so 415 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: ruthless would ever want to see me. And I try 416 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: to figure this out in my mind, is this some 417 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: kind of a trick? And so they pursued this because 418 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 2: I refused to go back to Vietnam several times. In fact, 419 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 2: this went on for like three years because I didn't 420 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: see any purpose. This may be painful for me. That's 421 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: a pain that I don't need. Why would ever go 422 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 2: through this? No, thank you. And then when they inferred 423 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 2: that he wanted to see me and that it might 424 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 2: be because he was in his late eighties and wanted 425 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 2: to apologize, Okay, maybe it's going to be good for him, 426 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 2: and maybe this will be good for me. Of course, 427 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: when they invited my family to go with me for 428 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: a vacation, I thought that would be interesting for my 429 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 2: kids to see the prison cell that I was in 430 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: because it's a museum now, So okay, I'll go do this. 431 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 2: But even before I met the guy, I really was 432 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 2: confused and apprehensive. I guess about what he was going 433 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: to say to me. Now, my kids, even though they 434 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: know my philosophy in life, my kids thought Dad's gonna 435 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 2: break loose and punch the guy. He talks a big story, 436 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: but this forgiveness thing, maybe he doesn't really believe it, 437 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: especially when he comes face to face with the guy 438 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 2: that tortured him. 439 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine and what did you feel when 440 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: you saw him? 441 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 2: What happened? So he had a little shack who was 442 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: his little retirement home on a river. So he came out. 443 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 2: He was nervous, was as nervous as I was. I 444 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 2: felt safe, I felt secure, but I had no I 445 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: what I was walking into. The guy brought out offered 446 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: me his homemade beer, and it was in a plastic 447 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 2: pepsicola bottle, and it was pretty good beer. I talked 448 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 2: to him for probably forty five minutes or an hour. 449 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: We got to know each other, and our backgrounds were 450 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 2: similar enough to know that he had done some things 451 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 2: like I had done some things which we were very 452 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: proud of because we thought that we were in service 453 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 2: to our country. He had the same kind of military 454 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 2: training I did, and he had pledged to defend his 455 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: way of life just like I had. And so we 456 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 2: meet in a conflict where we don't agree on accepting 457 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: the other's way of life. But there's certain commonality with 458 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: anyone you have a conflict with, if you research this thing, 459 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: if you think about it enough, we're more alike than 460 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 2: we are different. He never told me he forgave me, 461 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: and I never told him that I forgave him. He 462 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 2: never admitted any kind of mistake, but he would never 463 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 2: admit to ever harming an American. He wanted to hug me, 464 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: and I hugged him back. There was smiles and there 465 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: was humor in our conversation. I mean, we didn't leave 466 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 2: as best friends, but I think we both felt very 467 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: vulnerable to military guys from opposite sides of the war. 468 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: He'd fought for his country. I fought for my country. 469 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: And it's so important that we connect and that we 470 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: forgive and we honor the people, regardless of what they 471 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: do to us, that we see value in anyone. That's 472 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: kind of my attitude. That's what I live for. 473 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's incredible. There's some components of that 474 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: where I can identify with what you're saying. I mean, 475 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: but Day, when he came home, he was he was angry, 476 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: like a lot of service members were. Of course, you know, 477 00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: for you to access this element of forgiveness, to go 478 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: meet this camp commander, it's very noble, my friend. 479 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 2: Well, thanks, certainly. I respect Bud Day, not just for 480 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 2: what he flew with the misties, but when we came 481 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 2: home and he fought for us and other veterans with 482 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 2: our healthcare. So it wasn't just his military experience. He 483 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: served well after he came home. 484 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: People deal with the different ways, right. You know, you 485 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: agreeing to come on and have this conversation with me, 486 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: this is still an extension of service. 487 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: I know you're a humble man, Jr. And I got 488 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: to throw the bouquet back to you because the challenge 489 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: that you faced, those years of hospitalization and all of 490 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 2: the surgery and all this stuff that he went through, 491 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: you found a purpose. I think that's vital in all 492 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: of our lives, military or civilian. If you can't figure 493 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 2: out what your purpose is, you better try to find it. 494 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 2: I think that's just vital and not just survival, but 495 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: even success in all that we do. 496 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so true, and thank you for that. 497 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: We have a lot of service members, a lot of 498 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: veterans who are navigating, you know, the transition back home 499 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: that are having a difficult time. For those veterans who 500 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: are listening right now, who feel like they've lost the connection, 501 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: the purpose, the mission, if you will, and struggle on 502 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: a daily basis on showing up as someone who has 503 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: navigated a lot and has been around a lot of 504 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: individuals that have had to equally navigate those things. What 505 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: is some advice that you can offer to those individuals 506 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: that are listening. 507 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 2: Adversity is a horrible thing to waste. You take the 508 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: little struggles in life and you can make positive conclusions 509 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,479 Speaker 2: out of anything. Ninety percent of the POWs and Vietnam 510 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 2: stayed in the military, went back to flying airplanes and 511 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 2: commanding fleets around the world. Five hundred and ninety one 512 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: guys came home. So far, we have seventeen generals and 513 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: seven admirals, most of us retired as senior grade military officers. 514 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: We have doctors and lawyers, and preachers and teachers and 515 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 2: bishops and judges, and we have two ambassadors, two United 516 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 2: States senators, a vice president are candidate, and a president 517 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,959 Speaker 2: are candidate. All from five hundred and nine to one men. 518 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 2: Is because of the leadership we had and the team 519 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 2: that they put together and the direction the purpose that 520 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: we found in that prison. And I'm not just talking 521 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: about military stuff. I'm talking about going through a divorce 522 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 2: or losing your job. Even today in my life, I'm 523 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: eighty two years old, and I continue whenever I get 524 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 2: upset about something, I think it's a puzzle. I know 525 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 2: there's some value that if I work hard enough, I 526 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 2: can figure out what the advantage is in this adversity. 527 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: I've sort of become the poster boy for PTG post 528 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: traumatic growth, the whole idea that you can go through 529 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 2: it challenging experience and come out better. How do you 530 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: do this well. It's part of an organization called Boulder Crest. 531 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 2: It's a free process for any veteran, any first responder. 532 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: I can go to one of three different ranches in 533 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 2: Texas and Arizona and Virginia and go through this process 534 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 2: or turning PTSD into PTG. You have to decide on 535 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: your own. I'm gonna make this work. I'm going to 536 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: find some value in my adversity. And it may take 537 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: a while, it may take months or even years. Then 538 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: it becomes a whole lot easier. Find a support group 539 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 2: and it might be the guys at the VFW, it 540 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 2: might be a PTA. Find people that you can talk 541 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: to and listen to that have the same kind of 542 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: experiences that you do. Because nothing would replace the little community, 543 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 2: the podebic community that we had through very difficult communication, 544 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: but it was vital in my existence. To know that 545 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 2: I was not alone. 546 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: Captain Charlie Plum, thank you for your service. Thank you 547 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: for continuing to serve, not only in the nearly six 548 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: years you spent as a POW, but the years after 549 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: you were a POW and were released, and you continue 550 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: to tell your story and the story of the individuals 551 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: that you served with. What we've learned about a lot 552 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: of these Metal of Hoanna recipients is they loved being 553 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: a part of something. And that's the beautiful thing about life, 554 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: is not isolating yourself and still finding ways to connect 555 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,879 Speaker 1: and find that connection and find ways to show up. 556 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: And so I thank you, sir for this incredible conversation. 557 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 2: J R. I respect you immensely and what you've been 558 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 2: through and your journey even today in telling not only 559 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 2: your story but my story. 560 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: Captain Plum, thank you again. I love you, sir. To 561 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: keep up with Captain Charlie Plum, you can pick up 562 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: his book I'm No Hero or visit his website Charlie 563 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: Plum dot com. If you write him, he'll answer your 564 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,720 Speaker 1: email himself. If you're curious to learn more about post 565 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: dramatic growth, check out the website Bouldercress dot org. That's 566 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 1: Boulder with a You after the Oh and for more 567 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: on that prison, you can check out our episode about 568 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: Bud Day. Thanks for listening. This episode of Metal of 569 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: Honor Stories of Courage was produced by Jesse Shane. Our 570 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: editor is Ben Nadaf Hoffrey, Sound design and additional music 571 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: by Jake Gorsky. This episode was mixed by Sarah Bruguer. 572 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Constant. The fact checking by Arthur 573 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: Gomperts and original music by Eric Phillips. Don't forget. We 574 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. Send us your personal story 575 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: of courage or highlight someone else's bravery. Email us at 576 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: Medal of Honor at Pushkin dot fm. You might hear 577 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: your stories on future episodes of Metal of Honor, or 578 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,919 Speaker 1: see them on our social channels at Pushkin Pods. I'm 579 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: your host, JR. Martinez