WEBVTT - Building Resiliency with Margaret Killjoy 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.640 Welcome to it could Happen Here the show where I 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:10.000 had to change the introduction because Sophie said it would 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:12.240 confuse people. So now we're just doing the boring thing 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:14.520 and saying the actual name of the show, which is 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.880 it could happen here. Um. It's a show about the 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.520 fact that the society is kind of falling apart or changing, 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.959 depending on your perspective of things, and people need to 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.400 prepare for what's coming, which is a world of greater 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:34.320 instability and economic collapse and rising authoritarianism and increasing fights 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:39.760 in order to reverse and stymy all of those terrible things. Um. 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:42.479 And you know, one of the things I've seen in 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.640 some early feedback from um other stuff I've done on 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:47.920 other shows, and also from earlier episodes of this is 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:50.160 people who will go like, Hey, everything you're saying about 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.240 mutual aid is rad but I live in X town 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.120 and whatever state, and there's there's nothing here. There's not 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.040 not an organized left. I don't I don't know of 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:03.040 any mutual aid groups. Um, how can I get involved? 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.160 Or like, how could I start my own organization and 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.039 try to get people involved? And then another thing we 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:09.840 get asked a lot of us, like, hey, what you're 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:15.200 saying about building resiliency and preparing for difficult times, gardening 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.200 and whatnot sounds great. But I'm poor as ship and 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:19.720 I live in a tiny apartment um or whatever. I 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.760 I have no resources or no room um. Even if 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.119 you're not of enough money, like I'm in the middle 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:29.360 of some horribly dense city. So this week we're gonna 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:33.240 be talking around those subjects in a number of different ways. 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:35.839 And to kind of kick us off, I've got, of course, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.759 Garrison with me. Woke come up at nine in the morning. 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:43.240 How are you doing, Garrison, ungodly early? Yeah, it's it's 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.640 it's hideous. It's hideous. Um. And then Margaret Killjoy, who's 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:49.880 up at a much more reasonable hour because time zones 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.320 are a wild ass thing. Margaret, how do you? How 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.000 do we how do we introduce you? You're an author? Uh, 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:59.840 you're a writer of fiction. You host a podcast called 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.800 Live like the World is Dying, right, and you've had 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:05.080 me on and you talk about a lot of the 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:06.800 same things we talked about it and it could happen here. 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:11.600 We're actually shamelessly stealing your your your podcast in order 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:15.480 to make it corporate and sold out. How are you doing, Margaret. 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.239 I'm excited to be part of the corporate sold out 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.680 my own podcast, um, and and actually very glad that 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.360 you all do a wider audience thing. But um, I 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:29.160 think that is a decent way to introduce me. I 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:31.400 do a lot of different things, and I've been doing also, 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:36.239 like organizing and trying to seek radical political change for 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:40.000 about twenty years, to degrees of success. Actually mostly not 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.000 to any success, because we actually still live in maybe 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.519 a worse society than we were in two years ago. 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.280 I tell people that I dropped out of college to 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:54.360 ride freight trains and overthrow the government, and I wasn't 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.880 good at either of those things. I mean, you have 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.640 all your limbs, that's true. I do have all in 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:09.120 my limbs. Yeah. And you're not in prison, um, which 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.640 is really all anyone can ask of the universe. UM. 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.560 So you have started a number of organizations in your 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.240 career as an activist in kind of that hat. And 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.679 I guess let's start with like, yes, somebody who lives 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:24.280 in a place there's no kind of really really organized left, 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:26.160 there's probably not in a lot of these places much 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.320 of even like a democratic party. There's certainly not mutual 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.480 aid efforts UM, and I do think that there's a well, well, 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.400 mutual aid as a concept is is pretty firmly rooted 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.400 an anarchism. There's mutual aid kind of organizations that are 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.120 are not particularly leftist or at least people doing stuff 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:44.720 like that. Like I think a good recent example will 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:46.680 be the Occasion Navy, who did a lot of rescues 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.680 after the most recent set of hurricanes, where certainly not 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:52.720 a left or an anarchist organization, but a lot of 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:59.240 what they're doing is UM is a community aiding itself. UM. 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.480 So I don't where where do we Where do you 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.640 want to start here? Well, I guess I mean specifically 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.600 in disaster times, you don't necessarily work with the people 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:09.960 that you would assume that you're expecting to work with. 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.200 And you know, one of the one of the stories 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:13.960 that really sticks with me is like a friend of mine, 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.799 who's this you know, UM train riding anarchist with governed 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.880 in tattoos and and all of that. And during flood 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.040 relief in eastern North Carolina was like flying into storms 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:29.680 and small planes with libertarians because the people who are 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:33.440 willing to fly small planes into storms and own planes 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.719 tend to be the more libertarian side of things, and 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.159 so here's anarchists and libertarians working together to get people 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.600 what they need. And one of the things that I try, 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:44.560 because this is one of the biggest questions I think 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.600 that the left faces, and you know, people trying to 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:49.320 make the world better faces, is how do we get 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.680 people involved? And also how do people get involved if 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:55.080 no one's helping them get involved? And UM, I don't 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.039 have all the answers about it, but it's something that 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.360 I I think about obsessively some a lot. And one 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.720 of the things that I really try and focus on 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.159 with people as people say, well, I want to be prepared, 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:07.640 and you talk about community being a very important part 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:08.960 of apparedness, but I don't feel like I have a 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:13.200 community because we live in a very isolated society. And 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:15.080 one of the main things I try and remind people though, 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.040 is that in the same way that property relations break down, 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:20.080 like someone's like, oh, I don't have any stuff and 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.160 if the apocalypse comes, what will I do? And like, well, 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:23.960 the kind of the answer is that, like when's property 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:25.880 relations break down, there's a lot of stuff and it's 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:31.240 very people. There will be much stuff around, like warehouses 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.000 exist full of stuff, and yeah, Amazon warehouses are going 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:42.040 to become like fun boxes, Yeah exactly, slash fortified outposts alleged. Yeah, 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.320 and community is the same way, not that you would 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:47.800 go raid community, but instead that um some people. Yeah, 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.560 that's true. And but you can you can create community 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.360 in times of crisis in a way that's actually harder 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.000 to do when the existing social order exists. And and 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.240 the the thing I always say uses my my dumb 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.520 example of this about how people come together during times 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.640 of crisis is you know, when I'm waiting for the 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.240 bus and you know, some city or something, and no 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.280 one talks to each other if you don't know each 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.000 other until the bus is like five minutes late, and 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.200 then everyone is comparing notes about where they think they 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.200 saw the bus last, and everyone's friends and sharing snacks 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.120 and things. You know. So in some ways, I'm like, 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:26.800 be optimistic if you don't already no a community. Yeah, 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.640 And I think there's also things you can do that 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.680 don't necessarily cost a lot of money to both kind 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.920 of build resiliency and kind of community connections. Now, one 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:37.760 of those things, I've had a lot of friends in 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.320 different cities work for there there will be different farming 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.360 co ops, right, and generally the arrangement is you volunteer 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.960 some sort of time helping them with you know, there's 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.839 a lot of ship work on farms and in return 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.360 you generally get some amount of produce or whatever. But 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:57.040 really what you're getting is practical experience growing food and 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:59.200 you're meeting the kind of people who are interested in 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.919 growing their own food, and you know, those kind of 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.000 connections can be really helpful when things get worse. And 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.960 so I think it doesn't necessarily it doesn't have to 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:14.080 cost much to to try building community now, or to 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.800 at least try putting yourself in some of the spaces 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.960 where the kind of people you might want to be in, 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.440 the kind of people you you might want to know 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.880 when things get worse might be. Yeah, and there's a 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.440 lot of um, there's a lot of like opportunities. The 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.040 world kind of wants you to volunteer, you know, there's 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:34.840 there's all of these things that if you reach out 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:37.240 to people and you're like, hey, I don't have any connections, 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.240 but I'm interested in volunteering. There are types of organizations 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.360 that do interesting things that are open to that. You know, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.600 I kind of maybe it's terrible. But whenever my friends, 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:48.800 especially my friends were in their twenties or something, who 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.920 who don't really feel kind of lost and without direction 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.960 for a while, I'm like, yeah, go sit in a tree, like, 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.920 go join direct action environmentalist groups that are desperate for 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:03.239 people to come live their lives in this like self 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:07.480 sustaining community. That is incredibly traumatic and hard to do. 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:09.840 And I don't necessarily recommend this to everybody, but you know, 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.080 it's a thing that you can do, is that you 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:16.360 can go participate in in different movements, some of which 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:22.080 do want strangers, you know, some of which don't write. Um, 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.240 you can't show up to everything and be like, why 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.160 aren't you including me? You're a bunch of assholes. Yeah, 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.000 and UM, I don't know. So when when it comes 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:34.760 to actually like trying to start something, um like like 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.160 like going out and accepting, Okay, there's not Maybe I can't. 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:38.920 I can't leave my family behind and go to a 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.400 tree set, but I would like to, you know, start 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:49.439 a community engaging in something direct Maybe that's not illegal 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:53.160 direct action, maybe it is. It's none of my business. Um, 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.199 how do you recommend people just kind of start organizations? 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.520 Find people avoid pitfalls, like, you know, if you've got 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:02.720 to make your own mutual aid group because there's not 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.120 one in your town and you you wanna. I mean, 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.040 people have expressed a desire to understand how to do that. 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.800 So I'm you know, I've never I'm not an organizer. 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.280 I'm barely a journalist. I am curious for your thoughts 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.280 on that. Well, okay, so as my own caveat is, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.760 I'm no longer an organizer. I spent much of my 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.880 twenties being part of organizations and then I finally um 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:25.960 realize that I can just kind of do whatever I 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:27.840 want and then figure out how to plug that into 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.439 other people's things. But I will say the the main 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.080 way I've heard this expressed and I believe in is 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.120 that we should do if you want to start getting involved, 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.560 is you think about what you're good at, and or 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:40.080 you think about what you want to be good at, 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:42.640 and then you think about the problems that you're facing, 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:44.280 and then you think about how to apply what you're 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.800 good at to the problems that you're facing. So if 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:48.280 you're sitting there and you're like, well, I'm a I'm 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.880 a really good illustrator, right, I'm not I'm a terrible illustrator. 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.480 But let's say you're a good illustrator, and then you 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.920 you could basically reach out to organizations that maybe you 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.360 aren't even close and be like, hey, I'm an illustra rader. 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.880 Is there anything I can do for you? All? Um, 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.520 But if what you want to do is start an 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:11.200 organization locally, it's okay to start small and build up. 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:13.320 It's okay to you know, it's kind of a if 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.760 you build it, they will come kind of thing in general, 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.840 like if you start, if you figure out what you 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.480 need to do, you know, we want to distribute supplies, right, 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.880 then you just do it like you just um, even 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.360 if you start by yourself or ideally you kind of 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:30.400 start with yourself and a couple of friends that you 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.120 drag into it, and then you see what gets inertia 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.319 like rather than like forcing, rather than starting off, don't 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:38.800 start off by writing your by laws. Um, you know, 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.360 maybe start with an idea of like if you have 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:43.800 a cool name that you want to use, Like sometimes 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:45.880 that's great to start with, like a hook, and like 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:47.880 starting a band or something, you know, you start with 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:50.600 like the thing that brings everyone together, which is sometimes 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.160 a clever name. But but mostly you just start by 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.920 doing it, and um, you know, one of the one 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.319 of the ways that's longest standing that people can get 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.199 involved with low really or start locally, and there's a 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.120 lot of resources about how to do it is is 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.600 Food Not Bombs. Food Not Bombs is a a mutual 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:07.680 aid project that's existed and I wish I knew off 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:09.000 the top of my head since when I want to say, 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.880 the late seventies, but I really couldn't tell you. And 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.760 it's just food. It's just organizing food to give to 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:19.000 people in public. And it's actually wild how illegal it 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.280 is in some places, Like people get arrested for food 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:22.679 nut bombs all the time in Florida, in a couple 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.080 of other places. But yeah, we talked about them in 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:26.679 the first part of the season because there have been 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:28.920 a couple of point. I don't think nationally the FBI 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:30.680 is talked about them as a terror threat, but like 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.439 in the Austin Field office, and I think one or 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:35.000 two other places they've been like discussed as a terrorist 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:39.640 threat for handing out food. I've had like helicopters flying 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.360 overhead and like riot around the corner and stuffed for 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:44.520 for handing out food with food nut bombs. Yeah, it's 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.480 a they missed the second half of the name. I guess. 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.840 I don't know. I don't know. I think maybe if 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.439 we were to create bombs not food, we we might 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:57.760 not get as much police attention. But that's just a sory. Yeah. Well, 0:11:57.880 --> 0:11:59.520 what everyone says is that we need food, and no 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.040 one says. No one would ever say this, no one 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.080 would ever believe this. But we need food and bombs. Um, 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.760 food and bombs, bombs for some food for others. We 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:13.000 don't judge. We provide explosives and we provide food. Yeah, okay, 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.400 So if you can, I think, if you can, you 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.120 start by working. You figure out what you're good at. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.880 You find a group of people that are interested in 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.400 accomplishing the same thing, who maybe have such similar skill 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:26.599 sets or different skill sets, and you figure out what 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:27.960 you can do, and you start doing it, and you 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.960 organize calling people and being like, hey, well you donate 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.199 to us, or getting all your friends together to give 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.959 you stuff to to redistribute or whatever, right, putting out 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.440 calls on social media for things to redistribute. You know, 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:44.320 most structures start grassroots, and most of the time they 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.120 kind of tend to do best when they're grassroots instead 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.480 of becoming a little more codified. So if possible, do that. 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.720 But if you're just you, um, sometimes tying into existing 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.560 organizations is a thing worth doing. And if there's nothing locally, 0:12:57.600 --> 0:12:59.600 you can look at things a little further away, or 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:00.960 you can look at things that are on maybe on 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.440 a national level. But there's a lot of dangers in 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:09.240 joining existing organizations and structures, and I guess, I guess 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.000 I would say there's like three types of danger, and 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:13.360 one is that you talked about all the time. And 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.199 thanks for bringing into the leftist vocabulary of the word grifter. 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.760 I never heard anyone use the word grifter until your podcasts. 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.640 It's the most important word in the American English for sure. 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.080 We live in a fucking grifter republic. It's incredible and 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:32.080 we always have This isn't new, Yeah, but we need 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.640 more words because we also need the word for people 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.679 who are looking for useful idiots. And there's a lot 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.000 of social movements and not to be like I, I 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.439 support the left. I think that what we're attempting to 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.360 do is very worthwhile, and I like us more than 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.439 the other side by a fair amount. But there's a 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:50.320 lot of things that there's a lot of problems with 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.600 the left, and one of them is that people are 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.760 looking either to just have you as a body with 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.760 no decision making power and no autonomy, which doesn't actually 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.680 build a better world because you're just stop being a 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.559 cog in their machine and become a cog in our machine. Right. 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.240 And then there's also people who are kind of um 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:14.360 looking for useful idiots, canon fodder, like people to hang 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.560 around while they while they do stuff, or you know, 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:19.120 and I don't want to go to hot bodies to 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.840 stand out in front of cop shops sometimes, yeah, and 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.880 even like you know, even like movements that I really 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:27.280 care about that might do a lot of like non 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.360 violence of this obedience, although I don't I'm not particularly 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.760 I'm not passist personally, but you know, it's a very 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:36.520 useful strategy, non violence of disobedience. But sometimes they're like, oh, 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.080 you're young and new, lock yourself to this thing. Get arrested. 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.040 And I would definitely say to people, don't get arrested 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.160 on purpose at your first actions, like don't be anyone 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.720 else's cannon fodder. And so you feel like you are 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.440 part of the decision making and part of like like 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:58.680 you really matter and like then then don't um do 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.480 dangerous things for other people? Those projects like the ship 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:06.600 that states do that's so messed up is is turn 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:12.080 human bodies into resources that then get sacrificed for unclear ends. 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.040 Um And unless you feel like you have some sort 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.680 of like there are times we're being arrested is necessary 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:22.800 and helpful, but unless unless you feel you fully understand 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.160 not just why you're doing it, but also that like 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.320 you you you're not being told to do it, you 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.560 have autonomy and like I'm going to do this thing 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.000 that I know will end in my arrest because I like, 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.720 I don't know. That's probably like I think most people 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:41.320 in that position know this, But I definitely have encountered 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.240 some uncomfortable situations in the past, I'm sure similar to 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.200 once you have, where it did seem like people were 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:52.720 kind of being pushed to take that risk for reasons 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.600 they didn't fully understand or in a situation they didn't 0:15:55.640 --> 0:16:00.440 fully grock you know, yeah, which which it's at one 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:02.480 of the things that when I talk about how I 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.160 think this is the biggest problem, not not the cannon 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.400 fodder issue, but the getting people involved is the biggest 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.800 issue I think we currently face because there's so many 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.040 people who want to be involved right now because the 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:17.920 world is even worse than usual and um, and it's 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.320 hitting groups of people who haven't been hit by before. 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.160 And people are often also looking for a sense of community. 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.160 And there's a thing that people we don't talk about 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:31.040 enough when people are getting involved. There's two different reasons 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.440 people get involved, and both are entirely valid, and one 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.840 is to fix things and another is to find to 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:39.680 break out of the isolation that they live in their 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.480 daily lives. Um. And we need to be aware of 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.200 that when we talk about how to onboard people, and 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:48.160 we need to be aware about that. If you are 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.880 getting involved, you should think about your own desires. Are 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:56.200 you looking for community and if so, you can find 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:00.800 it within radical action right um. But you are doing that, 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:03.400 then you especially need to be on guard against peer 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.199 pressure because it's a really easy way to feel like 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:07.879 you're involved with things is to go hang out with 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.639 people who are all doing a release scary thing and 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:14.919 and that's beautiful. And I absolutely did that when I 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:18.560 when I first got involved in anarchism and politics in general, 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:23.520 I i joined in head first, and you know, spend 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:25.359 a night in jail within the first couple of months, 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.080 and I don't have any particular regrets about that. And 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.000 I found community in a way that I had never 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.679 had in my life because of how isolated our society is. 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.480 But that's not the only reason to go do these 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.119 and that is I mean, I think a lot of 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.720 people experienced that last year during the George Floyd protests. 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:45.800 It's the kind of I mean, it's the thing we've 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.680 talked about on in the first season. If it could 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:53.000 happen here that times like that this war does this too, 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.320 can actually provide meaning that that people have lacked. And 0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:59.440 a lot of it is that community that like community 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:03.040 of suffer, is the trauma bonding UM that feels like 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:04.879 the most important thing, even because maybe it is the 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:06.399 most important thing you've ever done. I think in a 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.920 lot of cases it is UM. But that's also mind 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.399 altering and it um it can lead to situations that 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.720 are not entirely dissimilar to cults. UM. I'm not saying 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.000 that they are cults, because cults are number one. With 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:22.960 a cult, there's generally going to be like a leader 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.800 and a in such but like there are things that 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.439 happened that that draw people into cults that are just 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:30.920 human things, their aspects in some cases, as I've said before, 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.280 of like a good party. Um, but there are cults 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.600 like aspects to the kind of groups that form in 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:40.359 these traumatic situations that can lead people to start making 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.480 really poor decisions. Um. And and so you have to 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:48.760 really you always have to be kind of analyzing not 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:50.800 just what you're doing, but what's going on in your 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:52.760 own head, in the head of the heads of the 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.359 people around you. UM. That's that's just always important. But 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.320 I think particularly when you're when you're trying to do 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.439 something new and different in a lot of ways, bigger 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:17.480 than anything you've done before. R. Do you have any 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.000 specific advice for like kind of avoiding the cults of 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:26.600 personality that sometimes form in new organizations. Yeah, so you 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.800 have both informal and formal structures can both cause problems 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.440 with cult of personality. There are these brilliant essays that 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:34.919 I haven't read in like twenty years that come from 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.280 the feminist movement, and one of them is called the 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:39.600 Tyranny of structural Lessness. And as best as I remember, 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:41.760 these are very short essays as best. I remember at 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:43.960 the Tyranny of Structurallessness says, if you don't have a 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.359 formal structure in your organization, you're going to have this 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.600 informal leader who basically tells everyone wants to do. And 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:55.000 that's a problem and and as a very important piece, 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:57.320 and I believe it comes from a Marxist feminist perspective, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.760 but I'm not certain. And then there was an anarchist 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.920 femin response around the same time, maybe I'm not sure, 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.399 called the tyranny of tyranny that was like, yes, that's true. 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:08.960 And also when you have a formal structure and put 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.520 someone in charge there in charge, and that has other 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.919 problems too, And I think that it's just we we 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:17.280 have to be aware of both of these things that Um, 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:21.440 you know, the fact that most movements are very decentralized 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.560 in grassroots as as huge advantages, right, but it does 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:30.639 have problems of causing informal cults of personality. UM. Podcasting 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.399 is a big part of this problem. UM. And actually, 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.640 I really appreciate that you're not an organizer like Frankly, 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.199 And it's part of why I'm not an organizer on 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:43.520 some level is because when people read the books that 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.360 someone writes or listen to someone's voice all the time. 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:51.080 It is very influential, right, and being aware of that 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.520