1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to it could Happen Here the show where I 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: had to change the introduction because Sophie said it would 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: confuse people. So now we're just doing the boring thing 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: and saying the actual name of the show, which is 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: it could happen here. Um. It's a show about the 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: fact that the society is kind of falling apart or changing, 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: depending on your perspective of things, and people need to 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: prepare for what's coming, which is a world of greater 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: instability and economic collapse and rising authoritarianism and increasing fights 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: in order to reverse and stymy all of those terrible things. Um. 11 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things I've seen in 12 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: some early feedback from um other stuff I've done on 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: other shows, and also from earlier episodes of this is 14 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: people who will go like, Hey, everything you're saying about 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: mutual aid is rad but I live in X town 16 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: and whatever state, and there's there's nothing here. There's not 17 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: not an organized left. I don't I don't know of 18 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: any mutual aid groups. Um, how can I get involved? 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: Or like, how could I start my own organization and 20 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: try to get people involved? And then another thing we 21 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: get asked a lot of us, like, hey, what you're 22 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: saying about building resiliency and preparing for difficult times, gardening 23 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: and whatnot sounds great. But I'm poor as ship and 24 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: I live in a tiny apartment um or whatever. I 25 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: I have no resources or no room um. Even if 26 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: you're not of enough money, like I'm in the middle 27 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: of some horribly dense city. So this week we're gonna 28 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: be talking around those subjects in a number of different ways. 29 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,839 Speaker 1: And to kind of kick us off, I've got, of course, 30 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: Garrison with me. Woke come up at nine in the morning. 31 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: How are you doing, Garrison, ungodly early? Yeah, it's it's 32 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: it's hideous. It's hideous. Um. And then Margaret Killjoy, who's 33 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: up at a much more reasonable hour because time zones 34 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: are a wild ass thing. Margaret, how do you? How 35 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: do we how do we introduce you? You're an author? Uh, 36 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: you're a writer of fiction. You host a podcast called 37 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: Live like the World is Dying, right, and you've had 38 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: me on and you talk about a lot of the 39 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: same things we talked about it and it could happen here. 40 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: We're actually shamelessly stealing your your your podcast in order 41 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: to make it corporate and sold out. How are you doing, Margaret. 42 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,239 Speaker 1: I'm excited to be part of the corporate sold out 43 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: my own podcast, um, and and actually very glad that 44 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: you all do a wider audience thing. But um, I 45 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: think that is a decent way to introduce me. I 46 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: do a lot of different things, and I've been doing also, 47 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 1: like organizing and trying to seek radical political change for 48 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: about twenty years, to degrees of success. Actually mostly not 49 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: to any success, because we actually still live in maybe 50 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 1: a worse society than we were in two years ago. 51 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: I tell people that I dropped out of college to 52 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: ride freight trains and overthrow the government, and I wasn't 53 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: good at either of those things. I mean, you have 54 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: all your limbs, that's true. I do have all in 55 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: my limbs. Yeah. And you're not in prison, um, which 56 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: is really all anyone can ask of the universe. UM. 57 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: So you have started a number of organizations in your 58 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: career as an activist in kind of that hat. And 59 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: I guess let's start with like, yes, somebody who lives 60 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: in a place there's no kind of really really organized left, 61 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: there's probably not in a lot of these places much 62 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: of even like a democratic party. There's certainly not mutual 63 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: aid efforts UM, and I do think that there's a well, well, 64 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: mutual aid as a concept is is pretty firmly rooted 65 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: an anarchism. There's mutual aid kind of organizations that are 66 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: are not particularly leftist or at least people doing stuff 67 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: like that. Like I think a good recent example will 68 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: be the Occasion Navy, who did a lot of rescues 69 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: after the most recent set of hurricanes, where certainly not 70 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: a left or an anarchist organization, but a lot of 71 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: what they're doing is UM is a community aiding itself. UM. 72 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: So I don't where where do we Where do you 73 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: want to start here? Well, I guess I mean specifically 74 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: in disaster times, you don't necessarily work with the people 75 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: that you would assume that you're expecting to work with. 76 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the one of the stories 77 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: that really sticks with me is like a friend of mine, 78 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 1: who's this you know, UM train riding anarchist with governed 79 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: in tattoos and and all of that. And during flood 80 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: relief in eastern North Carolina was like flying into storms 81 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: and small planes with libertarians because the people who are 82 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: willing to fly small planes into storms and own planes 83 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: tend to be the more libertarian side of things, and 84 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: so here's anarchists and libertarians working together to get people 85 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: what they need. And one of the things that I try, 86 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: because this is one of the biggest questions I think 87 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: that the left faces, and you know, people trying to 88 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: make the world better faces, is how do we get 89 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: people involved? And also how do people get involved if 90 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: no one's helping them get involved? And UM, I don't 91 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: have all the answers about it, but it's something that 92 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: I I think about obsessively some a lot. And one 93 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: of the things that I really try and focus on 94 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: with people as people say, well, I want to be prepared, 95 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: and you talk about community being a very important part 96 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: of apparedness, but I don't feel like I have a 97 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: community because we live in a very isolated society. And 98 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: one of the main things I try and remind people though, 99 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: is that in the same way that property relations break down, 100 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: like someone's like, oh, I don't have any stuff and 101 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: if the apocalypse comes, what will I do? And like, well, 102 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: the kind of the answer is that, like when's property 103 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: relations break down, there's a lot of stuff and it's 104 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: very people. There will be much stuff around, like warehouses 105 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: exist full of stuff, and yeah, Amazon warehouses are going 106 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: to become like fun boxes, Yeah exactly, slash fortified outposts alleged. Yeah, 107 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: and community is the same way, not that you would 108 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: go raid community, but instead that um some people. Yeah, 109 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: that's true. And but you can you can create community 110 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: in times of crisis in a way that's actually harder 111 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: to do when the existing social order exists. And and 112 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: the the thing I always say uses my my dumb 113 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: example of this about how people come together during times 114 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: of crisis is you know, when I'm waiting for the 115 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: bus and you know, some city or something, and no 116 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 1: one talks to each other if you don't know each 117 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: other until the bus is like five minutes late, and 118 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: then everyone is comparing notes about where they think they 119 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: saw the bus last, and everyone's friends and sharing snacks 120 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: and things. You know. So in some ways, I'm like, 121 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: be optimistic if you don't already no a community. Yeah, 122 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: And I think there's also things you can do that 123 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: don't necessarily cost a lot of money to both kind 124 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: of build resiliency and kind of community connections. Now, one 125 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: of those things, I've had a lot of friends in 126 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: different cities work for there there will be different farming 127 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: co ops, right, and generally the arrangement is you volunteer 128 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: some sort of time helping them with you know, there's 129 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: a lot of ship work on farms and in return 130 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: you generally get some amount of produce or whatever. But 131 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: really what you're getting is practical experience growing food and 132 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: you're meeting the kind of people who are interested in 133 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: growing their own food, and you know, those kind of 134 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: connections can be really helpful when things get worse. And 135 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: so I think it doesn't necessarily it doesn't have to 136 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: cost much to to try building community now, or to 137 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: at least try putting yourself in some of the spaces 138 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: where the kind of people you might want to be in, 139 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: the kind of people you you might want to know 140 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: when things get worse might be. Yeah, and there's a 141 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: lot of um, there's a lot of like opportunities. The 142 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: world kind of wants you to volunteer, you know, there's 143 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: there's all of these things that if you reach out 144 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: to people and you're like, hey, I don't have any connections, 145 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: but I'm interested in volunteering. There are types of organizations 146 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: that do interesting things that are open to that. You know, 147 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: I kind of maybe it's terrible. But whenever my friends, 148 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: especially my friends were in their twenties or something, who 149 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: who don't really feel kind of lost and without direction 150 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: for a while, I'm like, yeah, go sit in a tree, like, 151 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: go join direct action environmentalist groups that are desperate for 152 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,239 Speaker 1: people to come live their lives in this like self 153 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: sustaining community. That is incredibly traumatic and hard to do. 154 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: And I don't necessarily recommend this to everybody, but you know, 155 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: it's a thing that you can do, is that you 156 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: can go participate in in different movements, some of which 157 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: do want strangers, you know, some of which don't write. Um, 158 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: you can't show up to everything and be like, why 159 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: aren't you including me? You're a bunch of assholes. Yeah, 160 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: and UM, I don't know. So when when it comes 161 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: to actually like trying to start something, um like like 162 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: like going out and accepting, Okay, there's not Maybe I can't. 163 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: I can't leave my family behind and go to a 164 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: tree set, but I would like to, you know, start 165 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 1: a community engaging in something direct Maybe that's not illegal 166 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: direct action, maybe it is. It's none of my business. Um, 167 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: how do you recommend people just kind of start organizations? 168 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: Find people avoid pitfalls, like, you know, if you've got 169 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: to make your own mutual aid group because there's not 170 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: one in your town and you you wanna. I mean, 171 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: people have expressed a desire to understand how to do that. 172 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: So I'm you know, I've never I'm not an organizer. 173 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: I'm barely a journalist. I am curious for your thoughts 174 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: on that. Well, okay, so as my own caveat is, 175 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: I'm no longer an organizer. I spent much of my 176 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: twenties being part of organizations and then I finally um 177 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: realize that I can just kind of do whatever I 178 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: want and then figure out how to plug that into 179 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: other people's things. But I will say the the main 180 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: way I've heard this expressed and I believe in is 181 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: that we should do if you want to start getting involved, 182 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: is you think about what you're good at, and or 183 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: you think about what you want to be good at, 184 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: and then you think about the problems that you're facing, 185 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: and then you think about how to apply what you're 186 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: good at to the problems that you're facing. So if 187 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: you're sitting there and you're like, well, I'm a I'm 188 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: a really good illustrator, right, I'm not I'm a terrible illustrator. 189 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: But let's say you're a good illustrator, and then you 190 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: you could basically reach out to organizations that maybe you 191 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: aren't even close and be like, hey, I'm an illustra rader. 192 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: Is there anything I can do for you? All? Um, 193 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: But if what you want to do is start an 194 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: organization locally, it's okay to start small and build up. 195 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: It's okay to you know, it's kind of a if 196 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: you build it, they will come kind of thing in general, 197 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: like if you start, if you figure out what you 198 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: need to do, you know, we want to distribute supplies, right, 199 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: then you just do it like you just um, even 200 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: if you start by yourself or ideally you kind of 201 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: start with yourself and a couple of friends that you 202 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: drag into it, and then you see what gets inertia 203 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 1: like rather than like forcing, rather than starting off, don't 204 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: start off by writing your by laws. Um, you know, 205 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: maybe start with an idea of like if you have 206 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: a cool name that you want to use, Like sometimes 207 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: that's great to start with, like a hook, and like 208 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: starting a band or something, you know, you start with 209 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: like the thing that brings everyone together, which is sometimes 210 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: a clever name. But but mostly you just start by 211 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: doing it, and um, you know, one of the one 212 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: of the ways that's longest standing that people can get 213 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: involved with low really or start locally, and there's a 214 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: lot of resources about how to do it is is 215 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: Food Not Bombs. Food Not Bombs is a a mutual 216 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: aid project that's existed and I wish I knew off 217 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: the top of my head since when I want to say, 218 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: the late seventies, but I really couldn't tell you. And 219 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: it's just food. It's just organizing food to give to 220 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: people in public. And it's actually wild how illegal it 221 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: is in some places, Like people get arrested for food 222 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: nut bombs all the time in Florida, in a couple 223 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: of other places. But yeah, we talked about them in 224 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: the first part of the season because there have been 225 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: a couple of point. I don't think nationally the FBI 226 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: is talked about them as a terror threat, but like 227 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: in the Austin Field office, and I think one or 228 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: two other places they've been like discussed as a terrorist 229 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: threat for handing out food. I've had like helicopters flying 230 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: overhead and like riot around the corner and stuffed for 231 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: for handing out food with food nut bombs. Yeah, it's 232 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: a they missed the second half of the name. I guess. 233 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I think maybe if 234 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: we were to create bombs not food, we we might 235 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: not get as much police attention. But that's just a sory. Yeah. Well, 236 00:11:57,880 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: what everyone says is that we need food, and no 237 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: one says. No one would ever say this, no one 238 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: would ever believe this. But we need food and bombs. Um, 239 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: food and bombs, bombs for some food for others. We 240 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: don't judge. We provide explosives and we provide food. Yeah, okay, 241 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: So if you can, I think, if you can, you 242 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: start by working. You figure out what you're good at. 243 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: You find a group of people that are interested in 244 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: accomplishing the same thing, who maybe have such similar skill 245 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,599 Speaker 1: sets or different skill sets, and you figure out what 246 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: you can do, and you start doing it, and you 247 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: organize calling people and being like, hey, well you donate 248 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: to us, or getting all your friends together to give 249 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: you stuff to to redistribute or whatever, right, putting out 250 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: calls on social media for things to redistribute. You know, 251 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: most structures start grassroots, and most of the time they 252 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: kind of tend to do best when they're grassroots instead 253 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: of becoming a little more codified. So if possible, do that. 254 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: But if you're just you, um, sometimes tying into existing 255 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: organizations is a thing worth doing. And if there's nothing locally, 256 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: you can look at things a little further away, or 257 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: you can look at things that are on maybe on 258 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: a national level. But there's a lot of dangers in 259 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: joining existing organizations and structures, and I guess, I guess 260 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: I would say there's like three types of danger, and 261 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: one is that you talked about all the time. And 262 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: thanks for bringing into the leftist vocabulary of the word grifter. 263 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: I never heard anyone use the word grifter until your podcasts. 264 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: It's the most important word in the American English for sure. 265 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: We live in a fucking grifter republic. It's incredible and 266 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: we always have This isn't new, Yeah, but we need 267 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: more words because we also need the word for people 268 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: who are looking for useful idiots. And there's a lot 269 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: of social movements and not to be like I, I 270 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: support the left. I think that what we're attempting to 271 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: do is very worthwhile, and I like us more than 272 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: the other side by a fair amount. But there's a 273 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: lot of things that there's a lot of problems with 274 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: the left, and one of them is that people are 275 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: looking either to just have you as a body with 276 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: no decision making power and no autonomy, which doesn't actually 277 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: build a better world because you're just stop being a 278 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: cog in their machine and become a cog in our machine. Right. 279 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: And then there's also people who are kind of um 280 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: looking for useful idiots, canon fodder, like people to hang 281 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: around while they while they do stuff, or you know, 282 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: and I don't want to go to hot bodies to 283 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: stand out in front of cop shops sometimes, yeah, and 284 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: even like you know, even like movements that I really 285 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: care about that might do a lot of like non 286 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: violence of this obedience, although I don't I'm not particularly 287 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: I'm not passist personally, but you know, it's a very 288 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: useful strategy, non violence of disobedience. But sometimes they're like, oh, 289 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: you're young and new, lock yourself to this thing. Get arrested. 290 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: And I would definitely say to people, don't get arrested 291 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: on purpose at your first actions, like don't be anyone 292 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: else's cannon fodder. And so you feel like you are 293 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: part of the decision making and part of like like 294 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: you really matter and like then then don't um do 295 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: dangerous things for other people? Those projects like the ship 296 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: that states do that's so messed up is is turn 297 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: human bodies into resources that then get sacrificed for unclear ends. 298 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: Um And unless you feel like you have some sort 299 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: of like there are times we're being arrested is necessary 300 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: and helpful, but unless unless you feel you fully understand 301 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: not just why you're doing it, but also that like 302 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: you you you're not being told to do it, you 303 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: have autonomy and like I'm going to do this thing 304 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: that I know will end in my arrest because I like, 305 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. That's probably like I think most people 306 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: in that position know this, But I definitely have encountered 307 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: some uncomfortable situations in the past, I'm sure similar to 308 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: once you have, where it did seem like people were 309 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: kind of being pushed to take that risk for reasons 310 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: they didn't fully understand or in a situation they didn't 311 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: fully grock you know, yeah, which which it's at one 312 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: of the things that when I talk about how I 313 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: think this is the biggest problem, not not the cannon 314 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: fodder issue, but the getting people involved is the biggest 315 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: issue I think we currently face because there's so many 316 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: people who want to be involved right now because the 317 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: world is even worse than usual and um, and it's 318 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: hitting groups of people who haven't been hit by before. 319 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: And people are often also looking for a sense of community. 320 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: And there's a thing that people we don't talk about 321 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: enough when people are getting involved. There's two different reasons 322 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: people get involved, and both are entirely valid, and one 323 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: is to fix things and another is to find to 324 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: break out of the isolation that they live in their 325 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: daily lives. Um. And we need to be aware of 326 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: that when we talk about how to onboard people, and 327 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: we need to be aware about that. If you are 328 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: getting involved, you should think about your own desires. Are 329 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: you looking for community and if so, you can find 330 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: it within radical action right um. But you are doing that, 331 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: then you especially need to be on guard against peer 332 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: pressure because it's a really easy way to feel like 333 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: you're involved with things is to go hang out with 334 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: people who are all doing a release scary thing and 335 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: and that's beautiful. And I absolutely did that when I 336 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: when I first got involved in anarchism and politics in general, 337 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: I i joined in head first, and you know, spend 338 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: a night in jail within the first couple of months, 339 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: and I don't have any particular regrets about that. And 340 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: I found community in a way that I had never 341 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: had in my life because of how isolated our society is. 342 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: But that's not the only reason to go do these 343 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: and that is I mean, I think a lot of 344 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: people experienced that last year during the George Floyd protests. 345 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: It's the kind of I mean, it's the thing we've 346 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: talked about on in the first season. If it could 347 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: happen here that times like that this war does this too, 348 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: can actually provide meaning that that people have lacked. And 349 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: a lot of it is that community that like community 350 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: of suffer, is the trauma bonding UM that feels like 351 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: the most important thing, even because maybe it is the 352 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: most important thing you've ever done. I think in a 353 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: lot of cases it is UM. But that's also mind 354 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: altering and it um it can lead to situations that 355 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: are not entirely dissimilar to cults. UM. I'm not saying 356 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: that they are cults, because cults are number one. With 357 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: a cult, there's generally going to be like a leader 358 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: and a in such but like there are things that 359 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: happened that that draw people into cults that are just 360 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: human things, their aspects in some cases, as I've said before, 361 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: of like a good party. Um, but there are cults 362 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: like aspects to the kind of groups that form in 363 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: these traumatic situations that can lead people to start making 364 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: really poor decisions. Um. And and so you have to 365 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: really you always have to be kind of analyzing not 366 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: just what you're doing, but what's going on in your 367 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: own head, in the head of the heads of the 368 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: people around you. UM. That's that's just always important. But 369 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: I think particularly when you're when you're trying to do 370 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: something new and different in a lot of ways, bigger 371 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: than anything you've done before. R. Do you have any 372 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: specific advice for like kind of avoiding the cults of 373 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: personality that sometimes form in new organizations. Yeah, so you 374 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: have both informal and formal structures can both cause problems 375 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: with cult of personality. There are these brilliant essays that 376 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: I haven't read in like twenty years that come from 377 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: the feminist movement, and one of them is called the 378 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: Tyranny of structural Lessness. And as best as I remember, 379 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: these are very short essays as best. I remember at 380 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: the Tyranny of Structurallessness says, if you don't have a 381 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: formal structure in your organization, you're going to have this 382 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: informal leader who basically tells everyone wants to do. And 383 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: that's a problem and and as a very important piece, 384 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: and I believe it comes from a Marxist feminist perspective, 385 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: but I'm not certain. And then there was an anarchist 386 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: femin response around the same time, maybe I'm not sure, 387 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: called the tyranny of tyranny that was like, yes, that's true. 388 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: And also when you have a formal structure and put 389 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: someone in charge there in charge, and that has other 390 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: problems too, And I think that it's just we we 391 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: have to be aware of both of these things that Um, 392 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: you know, the fact that most movements are very decentralized 393 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: in grassroots as as huge advantages, right, but it does 394 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: have problems of causing informal cults of personality. UM. Podcasting 395 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: is a big part of this problem. UM. And actually, 396 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you're not an organizer like Frankly, 397 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: And it's part of why I'm not an organizer on 398 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: some level is because when people read the books that 399 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: someone writes or listen to someone's voice all the time. 400 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: It is very influential, right, and being aware of that 401 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: and therefore not exerting that power is a very good thing. 402 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: Um And but there's okay, So the other thing, like 403 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 1: when I worry about like people getting involved with like 404 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: don't get peer pressured into stuff when you first join. 405 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: There's also this thing that is needs to be talked about. 406 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: And maybe I'll have talked about this some previously, but entrapment. 407 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: Entrapment is a huge problem, and specifically the FEDS tend 408 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: to look for young idealist activists who can be peer 409 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: pressured into actions that they may or may not have 410 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: otherwise ideologically agreed with, like hey, let's go blow up 411 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: a bridge or let's go blow up a damn And 412 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 1: and this doesn't just happen to the left. It happens 413 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: m oh, yeah, it's all around, yeah for sure. Like 414 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: there's that case of the guys who are trying to 415 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: kidnap the governor of was it Michigan. A lot of 416 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: that was informants who were there's a lot of there's 417 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: you can debate heavily whether or not it was entrapment. Obviously, 418 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: what we we might consider entrapment morally often isn't entrapment 419 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: legally because the FBI doesn't know where the lines are legally, 420 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean it isn't morally entrapment, right, And 421 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: they do that a lot, and they usually succeed. Um well, 422 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: they may not usually succeed it, though they usually succeeded 423 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: the case and entrapment defenses are hard to succeed with. 424 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: And so really, just like and thinking about it, I 425 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: think developing your own moral compass and sticking to it 426 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 1: is one of the single most important things that a 427 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: new activist can can do. And not to be afraid 428 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: of radical action necessarily like militant action, but but be 429 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: wary of it um. But then again, I mean in 430 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: terms of like being wary of what the other thing 431 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: to avoid doing is like accusing each other, like fed jacketing, 432 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: like being like, oh, well, that person is doing the 433 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: same thing a FED might do, like wink wink. You know. Um, 434 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: it's a really complicated an annoying game to play, and 435 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: if you're just getting involved, you're gonna have to learn 436 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: how to get it play this game of not fed 437 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: jacketing and also not um falling. Into stuff, and it's 438 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: annoying because you probably have to kind of learn some 439 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: of the stuff, even if all you want to do 440 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: is give away blankets. You know, if you want to 441 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: tie what you're doing to a larger ideological structure, then 442 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: it's going to come up that you need to be 443 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: aware of how repression applies to that larger ideological structure. Yeah, 444 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: like all this is very useful specifically if you're trying 445 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: to find something kind of pre existing um or you know, 446 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: looking you know, or you know, starting something in the 447 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: bigger city where you have like connections can be made 448 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: to other existing organizations. And I'm trying to think, you know, 449 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,239 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who live in more like 450 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: rural areas. It's not much like a liberal or like 451 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, especially left is kind of subculture. How would 452 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: how would you recommend people who live in those kind 453 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: of scenarios try to start building this can really wouldn't 454 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: say like they only have a few friends, Um what 455 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: what steps do you think people can take if they 456 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: have more, you know, a secluded set up, so it 457 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: is harder. And I live in a red area close 458 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: to a blue area, right, and I do most of 459 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: my organizing and as much as I do organizing within 460 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: the the nearby small hippie city, even though theoretically the 461 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: thing that I care the most about is connections to 462 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: my immediate neighbors. Right, Um, that is harder, and it 463 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: is harder for a lot of different reasons, especially if 464 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: you have cultural differences between you and the people that 465 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: you're around. Right Like, I'm a trans woman and I've 466 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: live around a lot of like farms and stuff, right 467 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: And and previously this wasn't a problem before Trump. This 468 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: what just wasn't a problem after Trump. Now all of 469 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: a sudden, the fact that I'm trans as like an 470 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: attack against people in a way that it never used 471 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: to be. And and so now they all have an 472 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: opinion about the fact that we're in address. But it 473 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: still at the end of the day, I would say 474 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: that most of the people that I'm around are actually 475 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: totally chill. Like there's a vocal minority of really horrid people, 476 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: right um. But even the people who might be and 477 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: might have even voted for Trump or whatever, um, are 478 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily at least along my own identity lines. And 479 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: also white are not necessarily going to give me ship. 480 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: And you know, I can go talk to them and 481 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: address and they might be sort of confused, and they 482 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: might not be. But if you have more culturally in 483 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: common with the people around you, then there is a 484 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: lot of room that you can start working on from there. 485 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: And this actually ties into something that I think applies 486 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: to people across the board, which is we have this 487 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: especially new activists, but also including people who've been in 488 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: it for a long time, have this like real arrogance 489 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: about the fact that we're like right, And when you 490 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: want to change the world, you need a certain amount 491 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: of arrogance. You need a certain amount of like I mean, 492 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: I literally believe we need to not have a government 493 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: or capitalism, and these are very major changes to our 494 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: existing structures, a huge amount of arrogance to that. Although 495 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: not having a guft amen a slightly less of a 496 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: major change now than it was a couple of years ago, 497 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: it's true. And also like something like sometimes, actually, it's 498 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: funny I used that it more in common with these neighbors, 499 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 1: but then all the libertarians when goddamn authoritarian That bummed 500 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: the funk out of me. Yeah, there's there's some good 501 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: ones still, There's like again, there's the there's the there's 502 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: the taking your private plane and do a disaster area libertarians, 503 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: and God bless him totally. And you know, they're like, 504 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: they just don't want them. You know. It's like, my 505 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: dad is sort of on the libertarian side of things 506 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: and keeps twenty dollar bills in the visor of his 507 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: truck to give to people flying signs, and he just 508 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: doesn't want the government redistributing his money. He doesn't mind 509 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: redistributing his money. Yeah, And I'm like, all right, I 510 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: don't have any real objection to that. He's also no 511 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: longer anyway. If you come at people with this attitude 512 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: of like I'm right and you're wrong, the kind of 513 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: people that you can get to join your side by 514 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: saying I'm right and you're wrong are not the people 515 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: you want. You want people who challenge authority, including the 516 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: authority of people who claim there should be authority, and 517 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: and so just actually listening to people and like hearing 518 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: people out and um when possible. Avoiding drawing lines between 519 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: people is one of the main ways to connect with 520 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: people across either cultural divides or especially political divides. And 521 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: this this can't always happen, right, Like I walked down 522 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: the street and address and someone like calls me a 523 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,959 Speaker 1: bad word, like I'm not going to be like, I 524 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: understand why you think to call me that, and I 525 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: understand how like me dressed this way kind of challenges 526 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: your sense of masculinity that you've been brought up into. 527 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: Is the only way that you can hold yourself strong 528 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: in a very hard world. No, I don't do that. 529 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: I um scream funck you and chase them. Um, I 530 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: would ever chase anyone with a knife. I think that's 531 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: not legal, So I wouldn't do that, but um, you 532 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: know that might work. And you know, like, funk those people. 533 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,959 Speaker 1: I don't care what they have to say. No, of 534 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: course not. And it when I think one of the 535 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: things that I don't know Twitter brain has done is 536 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: that like when you when you talk about reaching out 537 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: and talking to people who you know don't agree with you, 538 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: aren't aren't on your side ideologically, there's folks who will 539 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: kind of assume, like, oh, so you're saying I should 540 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: like try to be friendly with people who would have 541 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: murder me. Like, no, I'm not saying that. I'm not 542 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: saying that, Like, as a trans person or black person, 543 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: you should go talk to um a militant anti LGBT 544 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: activist or a fucking klansman or something. I'm saying that, like, 545 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: that's not within the broad I'm saying what what you 546 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: need to recognize, But what I think is important to recognize, 547 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: especially if you're when we talk about like post you know, 548 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: collapse or whatever, is that within broad political tendency. So 549 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about like fascist or whatever, but I'm 550 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: talking about like liberal, conservative, progressive, very broad political tendencies. 551 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: You have roughly the same percentage of people who are ship. 552 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: So in an anarchist group, the amount of people who 553 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: are shitty is to be similar to the amount of 554 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: the general population that are shitty. It's the same with 555 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: every political tendency. But the corollary to that is, again, 556 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: within broad tendencies, you'll find roughly the same amount of 557 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: people who are basically rad And maybe yeah, there's some 558 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: they have their brain got poisoned with dis info and 559 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: they believe some stupid shit and they vote like an asshole. 560 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: But you know they'll stop their car if they see 561 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: someone in an accident, and they keep a fucking medical 562 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: kit in their bag, and you know there that it's 563 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: the it's the it's the ship that you know, I 564 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: talk a lot about this, the stabbing on the Portland 565 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: Max train. Well, the two people who who died confronting 566 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: that asshole. Um, we're a republican retired veteran and a 567 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: far left social justice activist, and they both you know, 568 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: put their bodies on the lines. I think that, like 569 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: when we talk about like being willing to kind of 570 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: talk with people who are who are not on the 571 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: same ideological boat as you, that's that's what I mean. 572 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: Not you should make nice with the people who want 573 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: to w terminate you, Like fuck those people. Yeah, because 574 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: the thing you're looking for, the thing I'm looking for 575 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: is the Republican who's going to, hopefully, instead of dying 576 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: to saw alongside me, successfully defeat the you know, actual 577 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 1: far right person. But yeah, yeah, totally, And and I 578 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: think that that actually is part of the It's not 579 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: always the answer for every person who's isolated, right, everyone 580 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: who's socially isolated, but it is part of it. If 581 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: you're trying to organize with people where you say you're 582 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: the only leftist or the only anarchist in your area, 583 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: then maybe you don't start. And this is actually funny. 584 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: I'm very into being very public about my political ideology 585 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: so that people know what bias is UM coming into 586 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: things with. But but maybe you don't start your rural 587 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: mutual Aid project calling it the rural Mutual Aid project, 588 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: or maybe you do, and maybe you you just start 589 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: doing it and you find people who are willing to 590 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,239 Speaker 1: have the same goals and means as you, and and 591 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: I think you can do alongside of that, you can 592 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: also just be really public about what you believe. I mean, 593 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: you know, UM Again, as an anarchist, I end up 594 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: working with like church groups and things that I don't 595 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 1: necessarily agree with on a lot of a lot of things. 596 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: But they're not mad when I'm like, oh, I'm an anarchist. 597 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: They're just like, huh, okay, I'm a church person or 598 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: what you know, and like, okay, I'm not. I don't 599 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 1: expect different of them, and they don't expect different of me. 600 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: And we we know what we have in common and 601 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: what we don't to a certain degree, and then we 602 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: work on what we have in common and so airing 603 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: and so this is both true if you're within the 604 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: movement and you're hoping to try and solve this problem 605 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: for other people. But I also think it's going to 606 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: be true for people who are trying to build things 607 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: in areas where they don't have, where they don't feel 608 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: like the part of something larger is airing on the 609 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: side of inclusion versus exclusion and not And like you're 610 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: talking about, it's about airing on the side of not 611 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: always include everyone, not always committing to a hard and 612 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: fast rule. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, be be open to 613 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: the fact that people can surprise you in ways that 614 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: aren't terrifying. Yeah. Also, because you get terrified enough by 615 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:01,479 Speaker 1: an of like people who you think are on your 616 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: side that you're like, oh, yeah, I'm sad. You all 617 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: donto the ad pivots in this show because you can 618 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: do it. We can do it, we can we can 619 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: cut it in during one of the long awkward pauses. 620 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: Go for it, and we'll keep all this up to 621 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: it in, but we'll actually cut the actual so you'll 622 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 1: hear it. It's like Finnigan's Wake. You're going to hear 623 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: it out of order, Okay, And I hopefully you all 624 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: be able to figure out the second half of it. 625 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: But the first the first half is anyone who claims 626 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: to have all the answers. Is selling you something? Oh 627 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: uh huh yeah, oh oh you know who else is 628 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: selling you something? Is it the ads? Go listen to 629 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: the Guico Geico or or Jesus. We've had some bad 630 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: ones lately. Um, there's that s os Cuba show that 631 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: sounds we're rough. Uh. There was that one that was 632 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,239 Speaker 1: just like God, it was just like this is we 633 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: are sponsored by God. Yeah. I think I've gotten like 634 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: Walmart and McDonald's on your show before. Remember that's the 635 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: people's food. Oh yeah, organized actually try to organize around 636 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: the Walmart. That could be very so. Anyway, here's ads. 637 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: If someone is trying to start something new inside one 638 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: of these more secluded areas and like they have decided 639 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: like yeah, I'm willing to do something. I'm willing to 640 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: actually just like start it. How how would you recommend 641 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: they try to figure out what some of the like 642 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: biggest needs of the community are that they can actually tackle. 643 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: Like how how does someone find out what to do 644 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: with their mutual aid because they can like commit like yeah, 645 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: I can do something around supply, something around this, you 646 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: know whatever. Like how does one try to actually gauge 647 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: what is important to tackle? I guess It depends on 648 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: whether you feel like you're totally Like if in my head, 649 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: if I'm totally inside Annissie community, but an area, right, 650 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: I probably kind of know because I'm also experiencing whatever 651 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: the thing is. But if I'm if I'm a little 652 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: bit detached from it, then I do need to like 653 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: do kind of you know, the sort of traditional methods. 654 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: I think it's called listening projects. I've never actually personally 655 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: done a listening project. I've been around many people who do, 656 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: where you basically like sometimes you go door to door 657 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: and you're like, hey, what's up, Like what do you need? 658 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,919 Speaker 1: Like what's going on? You know? Um, But like say, 659 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: for example, in the area that I live, there is 660 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: a a rural organizing It's not the actual Rural Organizing project, 661 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: which is a specific structure, but there is a rural 662 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: mutual aid group in the largely red area that I 663 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: live in that's run by by leftists, and they I 664 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: think that largely they did a lot of like firewood delivery, 665 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: for example, because a lot of the areas around here 666 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: are heated by wood stoves, and you have a lot 667 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: of poverty in rural areas, and of course poverty looks 668 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: very different in rural areas versus urban areas. And you know, 669 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: one of the advantages of being rural poor. There's many disadvantages, 670 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 1: like lack of access to certain types of services, right, Um, 671 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: But one of the sometimes advantages of rural poverty, as 672 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: I understand it, I'm not specifically an expert, um, is 673 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: do you have space? Right, you just don't have stuff 674 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: for money, and so you can have stuff if people 675 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: give you stuff, so you can like story your firewood 676 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: and so. And then also because it's this very specific 677 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: tangible thing, people can get really excited about, like, oh, 678 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: I can chop firewood, or maybe even I can't chop 679 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: firewood because my legs busted because I work in the 680 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: paper mill or whatever, but I can. But I got 681 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: a trailer on my truck, you know, Um, and I 682 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: can haul that. And people get really excited when there's 683 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: like things that they specifically are good at, especially things 684 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 1: that I kind of have alienated them from other people 685 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: that they're that they're good at that they can then 686 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,439 Speaker 1: participate in. And O. Which isn't totally answer your question, 687 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: but I would say if anyone specifically is in a 688 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 1: rural situation, I was looking to start a mutual a group. 689 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: Look at the Rural Organizing Project. Yes, I don't believe 690 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: that they specifically do rural mutual aid organizing, but they 691 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: talk a lot about what it means to be an 692 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: organizer within areas that are largely controlled by the far right, 693 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: but are not. It's not like the people are all 694 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: far right, they're just controlled by the far right, you know. Yeah, 695 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: the people actually there, once you talk to them, might 696 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: actually be a lot more reasonable than like the media 697 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,919 Speaker 1: influencers who are part of this you know, same thing. Yeah, 698 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: and it is. It is one of those things. This 699 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: is a topic we're drifting too, but it's when we 700 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: drift too regularly on this show. We're like, when I 701 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: talk with conservatives, it's it's not uncommon that I can 702 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: without especially if I don't start by mentioning anarchy, I 703 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: can get them to agree to a lot of the 704 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,439 Speaker 1: things I believe, which is like, yeah, maybe people don't 705 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: need to be governed, Maybe that doesn't work out good, 706 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: Maybe politicians are corrupt and should have less power, And 707 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 1: like that doesn't mean that you're gonna you're gonna get 708 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 1: them on the barricades with you. Um, because any productive 709 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: kind of relationship starts from like a base of shared interests, 710 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: and it's not a useless endeavor to engage in kind 711 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: of trying to subtly, you know, if you if you 712 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: feel out people around you who are ideologically not particularly 713 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: similar to you, but also decent people, um, you can 714 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: kind of try and work in some some something you've 715 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: not not just some common ground, but you can try 716 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: and get them to see that they agree with you 717 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: one more than they think, um, and that that has 718 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 1: an effect of changing the way people think about the world. 719 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: It really does. Yeah, and you but you also have 720 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: to go into it open to yes. Maybe maybe it's 721 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: not going to change your opinion about the way the 722 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: economy should be structured or the way that sure works, right, 723 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: but you know, you definitely have to go into it 724 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: with a I can now understand why you drive a 725 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: big pickup truck that burns a lot of gas or 726 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: whatever whatever thing. You might be coming into it thinking, yeah, 727 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: or at least it might help you understand why they 728 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 1: believe or do certain things outside of you know, Dave 729 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: Reuben broke their brain because they got on YouTube at 730 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: the wrong time. I don't know, Margaret, did you have 731 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to really get into. I guess 732 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:26,919 Speaker 1: to one of the other questions that you all brought 733 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: up was about preparedness, like maybe kind of almost in 734 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: the inverse situation where let's say that you live in 735 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: a small apartment and you want to be prepared and 736 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: in which case maybe you have better access to community. 737 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: Maybe you don't write A lot of people who live 738 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: in the city are just as isolated socially as people elsewhere, 739 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: But at least you kind of have, like there's a 740 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: little bit more easy access to ways to break out 741 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: of certain types of isolation if you put work into it, 742 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: because there's more likely to be groups around that are 743 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: that are public that you can go interface with. UM. 744 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: But in terms of like actual preparedness, you have the 745 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: inverse problem, right of if you live rural you might 746 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: have room to store beans and rice, and if you 747 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: live in the city, you might not write UM. But 748 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 1: I I will say, it's the other thing that I 749 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: find people The two things that people talk to me 750 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: about I think you all run into also is that 751 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: people are either I don't have any community or I 752 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: don't have any money in space. Yeah, and so if 753 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: you don't have any money in space. I mean, I 754 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: mean in some ways, it's like, well, maybe your focus 755 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: isn't like stockpiling stuff. Stockpiling and stuff is like the 756 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: single most overrated part of individual community preparedness. Um. I 757 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: mean I do it, but you know it's because I 758 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 1: M my brain works that way. Um. But also the 759 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: level of like stuff that you might be looking for 760 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: might be a lot less than like, like you know, 761 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: it's like prepper media is filled with like here's how 762 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 1: to build a bunk or under your pool, and I'm like, what, Yeah, 763 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: there's there's so many levels I mean, somebody, somebody other 764 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: things that you should be doing before you go to 765 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: that stitch. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, don't get me wrong, 766 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: if I had a pool, I'd be stoked, And if 767 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: I have absolutely under it, I'd be even more stoked. 768 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: I'd be so happy. Yeah. But but you know what 769 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: it's like, it's the first five gallon bucket of like 770 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: dried food you store is far and away more important 771 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: than the tent, right, and like so just having a 772 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 1: five gallon Jerry canful of water so that you're like, 773 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,799 Speaker 1: you know, what if the water turns off or we 774 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: have a boil advisory, which happens all the time. I'm 775 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: good for a couple of days, right, because most of 776 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: the time people think about preparedness as like I'm preparing 777 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: for the end times, and usually what it is is 778 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: the end times are real slow and chunky and crumbles, 779 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,359 Speaker 1: that's the word, um. And so you're just really looking 780 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: to like smooth out interruptions, and a lot of that 781 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: can be done very cheaply and honestly. When when you 782 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,760 Speaker 1: start storing your fifth five gallon jerry can of water, 783 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: you're not storing for you anymore. You're starting for your neighbor. Yea, yeah, 784 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: And that's good, but not exactly not the first step, 785 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, it's better to prepare for if you 786 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: have like a week's worth of power outages or a 787 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: week's worth of the water not working right, And those 788 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: are more incremental steps because we're not just gonna drop 789 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: off and have no water forever starting in a month, right, 790 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,919 Speaker 1: probably not, but we mean very like there's gonna be 791 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: there's enough remaining systems that that they want to fix it. 792 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,439 Speaker 1: You know, it's more likely that some some disasters gonna 793 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,840 Speaker 1: happen that we're gonna have, you know, a week worth 794 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: of stuff gone, you know, and that's the thing that's 795 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: actually more more reasonable to prep for. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, well, Margaret, 796 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: where can Where can the good people and hopefully not 797 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 1: the bad people, but statistically some of them will suck 798 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: find you? Um, the good people can find me on. 799 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: I have a podcast called Like the World Is Dying, 800 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: which they can listen to you on if they would like. 801 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 1: It's about individual community preparedness. I also am on Twitter 802 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: way too much, at Magpie kill Joy, Instagram, at Margaret 803 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: Killjoy my websites Birds Before the Storm dot net or 804 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,439 Speaker 1: Margaret Killjoy dot com. And that has like a list 805 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: of all the books that I have out. And I 806 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: have a new book, an old book being reissued that 807 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 1: is coming out in November from a K Press. The 808 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: book is called A Country of Ghosts and it's an 809 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: anarchist utopian book because I was sick of people being 810 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: like but how would an anarchist society work? And I 811 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: was like, you know what, I wrote a book, damn straight. Um. 812 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: It also has a plot, so it's not fancy get 813 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: kind of bougie with yours. If you write a plot, 814 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: you get the wall. Plots allowed only post structural literature well, okay, 815 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: so this has actually happened to anarchist fiction writers before 816 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,720 Speaker 1: Buds of Mara was this anarchist fiction writer. Um oh, 817 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: I can't remember where from I'm gonna this is terribly embarrassing. 818 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: But he moved to England from a colonized African country. Um, yeah, 819 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: what did Rhodesia become? This is the most embarrassing. So 820 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 1: it became a Zimbabwe, right, okay? Yeah, so yeah, so 821 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: he was from there and then everyone and he moved 822 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 1: to London until he realized that they're a bunch of 823 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: racists and he would like breaksh it at awards ceremonies 824 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: and then go back home. But he was a squatter 825 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: for a while in the eighties. But he wasn't writing 826 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: in the proper post colonial like Marxist realist tradition, because 827 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 1: instead he was writing postmodern fiction, which is duckett and terrible. 828 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: So he just like was like, I don't care, and 829 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,879 Speaker 1: so he's great. That is that is anyway. I love 830 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: to see it. Um, that's the episode. That's the episode. 831 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: Go out and right, postmodern jump on a train. But 832 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 1: to yeah, probably also a bad idea. I talked to 833 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: somebody who lost their legs doing that once anyway, Episodes 834 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:05,839 Speaker 1: over