WEBVTT - Miseducation and Climate Change 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.116 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.156 --> 0:00:27.676 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.196 --> 0:00:32.276 I'm Noah Feldman. One of the stories that's most dominant 0:00:32.316 --> 0:00:36.156 in the news right now is climate change. Behind the 0:00:36.196 --> 0:00:40.156 story of climate change, though, lies not just the underlying science, 0:00:40.436 --> 0:00:43.316 but the question of who knows that science and how 0:00:43.476 --> 0:00:47.836 they learn it. In particular, how is climate change or 0:00:47.876 --> 0:00:50.836 the absence of climate change a story that some people 0:00:50.836 --> 0:00:55.236 believe in being taught in schools in the United States. 0:00:56.436 --> 0:01:01.556 A new book explores precisely that issue. The author is 0:01:01.716 --> 0:01:05.756 Katie Worth, an investigative journalist who writes about science politics, 0:01:05.916 --> 0:01:11.996 and there are many intersections. Her book is called Miseducation, 0:01:12.316 --> 0:01:16.196 How Climate Change Is Taught in America. It shows a 0:01:16.316 --> 0:01:20.756 number of ways in which fossil fuel companies have influenced 0:01:20.836 --> 0:01:25.516 science education, and it also shows how the politics of 0:01:25.716 --> 0:01:29.556 many teachers in the United States affect the way they 0:01:29.596 --> 0:01:34.996 teach climate science to their students. The book is fascinating 0:01:35.156 --> 0:01:39.396 and significant and in many ways troubling, and I'm very 0:01:39.436 --> 0:01:48.996 pleased that Katie is here to discuss it with me today. Katy, 0:01:49.076 --> 0:01:51.796 thank you so much for joining me. We're going to 0:01:51.876 --> 0:01:55.916 talk about your fascinating new book, Miseducation How Climate Change 0:01:55.996 --> 0:01:59.276 is Taught in America, And I want to begin by 0:01:59.316 --> 0:02:03.516 asking you just to tell us your basic view of 0:02:03.556 --> 0:02:07.036 what is going on. How is climate change being taught 0:02:07.116 --> 0:02:10.476 or not taught in America? Your title missage gives away 0:02:10.516 --> 0:02:14.996 something of your answer. Yeah, Well, the short answer is 0:02:15.036 --> 0:02:19.916 that there is a surprising amount of climate skepticism climate 0:02:19.916 --> 0:02:24.676 denial being taught in public schools. And my reporting kind 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:27.876 of went into how that happened and why it matters. 0:02:28.436 --> 0:02:31.236 There's a lot of points of friction in the world 0:02:31.356 --> 0:02:36.036 of climate education, teachers arguing with other teachers about what 0:02:36.156 --> 0:02:40.316 should be taught, and administrators mandating that it not be taught, 0:02:40.396 --> 0:02:43.796 and teachers pushing back, and students and parents mad about it. 0:02:43.956 --> 0:02:46.836 I found that everywhere that I went, no matter what community, 0:02:46.876 --> 0:02:50.796 it was in the reddest communities and the bluest communities. 0:02:51.356 --> 0:02:56.076 But the ultimate takeaway is that the classroom is not 0:02:56.356 --> 0:03:00.676 this ideologically neutral place when it comes to climate change. 0:03:00.996 --> 0:03:04.716 In some places, kids are getting a fairly robust education 0:03:04.916 --> 0:03:08.836 about this issue that's going to define the century they 0:03:08.836 --> 0:03:12.476 were born into. And then in other places they're actively 0:03:12.596 --> 0:03:19.156 learning climate denialism. In class. That leads perfectly into the 0:03:19.196 --> 0:03:22.516 biggest question that I have coming out of reading the book, 0:03:22.556 --> 0:03:26.876 and it's this, I completely buy the story you're telling. 0:03:26.916 --> 0:03:29.596 I mean, you've convinced me entirely that the teaching of 0:03:29.636 --> 0:03:32.516 climate changes, as you just put it, not ideologically neutral. 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:37.916 Why would we expect that it would be? And the 0:03:37.956 --> 0:03:41.756 reason I asked that is the teaching of evolution is 0:03:41.756 --> 0:03:45.756 not ideologically neutral in the United States, a century after 0:03:45.876 --> 0:03:49.556 we started having our biggest fights about it. Education in 0:03:49.556 --> 0:03:52.556 the United States is democratically structured with a small D, 0:03:53.196 --> 0:03:57.636 which means local school boards make decisions and sometimes state 0:03:57.716 --> 0:04:01.756 legislatures make decisions, and those are political bodies. And we 0:04:01.876 --> 0:04:07.276 have in the United States a continuing, deep, politicized, partisanized 0:04:07.356 --> 0:04:12.076 disagreement about climate change, independent of what the science says. 0:04:12.716 --> 0:04:16.076 So why wouldn't we expect to see the exact same 0:04:16.156 --> 0:04:21.036 kinds of ideological divisions that you that you find. Yes, 0:04:21.276 --> 0:04:25.476 we live in a country where you know, one of 0:04:25.476 --> 0:04:30.516 our two major parties rejects climate science. But you know, 0:04:30.556 --> 0:04:35.276 I think we have this idea that in an ideal world, 0:04:35.596 --> 0:04:39.076 kids walk into a science class and learn science and 0:04:39.116 --> 0:04:44.636 the science is incontrovertible, right like there is no evidence 0:04:44.836 --> 0:04:49.796 that climate change is not happening or not happening because 0:04:49.796 --> 0:04:55.236 of humans, and yet kids are learning or told that 0:04:55.236 --> 0:04:59.156 that's not certain. Right, So, in an ideal world, we 0:04:59.196 --> 0:05:04.516 wouldn't have to worry about the adult politics seeping into 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:08.836 the minds of children. We would just be able to 0:05:08.836 --> 0:05:12.796 truy that kids are able to access the truth of 0:05:12.836 --> 0:05:16.756 the matter. That's a fascinating answer, Kittie, and I want 0:05:16.756 --> 0:05:18.916 to just delve into a little bit if it's okay 0:05:18.916 --> 0:05:24.356 with you, please, Yeah. So, in an ideal world, I 0:05:24.396 --> 0:05:27.036 think I hear you saying science would be science and 0:05:27.036 --> 0:05:30.276 there would be no politics in it. But there is 0:05:30.316 --> 0:05:34.956 politics and science and more fundamentally, there's always a politics 0:05:34.996 --> 0:05:38.436 to education. When you teach kids, you're not just teaching 0:05:38.436 --> 0:05:44.636 them facts. You're also teaching them values, beliefs, ideas. And 0:05:45.076 --> 0:05:48.756 it may be that the aspiration to treat science as 0:05:48.796 --> 0:05:52.956 a quote unquote truth sounds good as a matter of 0:05:53.196 --> 0:05:57.476 pr or polemic in favor of science, but it's not 0:05:57.516 --> 0:06:01.156 the way that many people think of science, right. Many 0:06:01.156 --> 0:06:05.876 people think of science as produced by social processes. And 0:06:06.156 --> 0:06:10.036 if it's produced by social processes, it's susceptible to these 0:06:10.116 --> 0:06:13.516 kinds of political disagreements. That was maybe more of amusing 0:06:13.556 --> 0:06:16.276 than a question. But I wonder why you think about that. Yeah, 0:06:16.436 --> 0:06:20.436 totally fair. I mean, adult politics make their way into 0:06:21.116 --> 0:06:25.516 our educational spaces. Period. We're saying that about critical race theory. 0:06:26.156 --> 0:06:30.996 So it's not in some ways very surprising that that's 0:06:31.036 --> 0:06:35.236 happening with this issue that is a big point of 0:06:35.316 --> 0:06:37.836 disagreement among adults. Of course that's going to kind of 0:06:37.876 --> 0:06:42.236 passively seep into classrooms too. And yet I would argue 0:06:42.356 --> 0:06:46.676 it's still shocking. And what's shocking about it is that 0:06:46.836 --> 0:06:50.236 these kids are being born into a century that will 0:06:50.276 --> 0:06:54.276 be defined by this crisis. There's no child on this 0:06:54.356 --> 0:06:57.996 earth that will be untouched by this crisis. And they 0:06:58.276 --> 0:07:01.956 in America. And again, this is a problem in America 0:07:02.076 --> 0:07:06.156 that is not a problem in many other developed nations. 0:07:07.396 --> 0:07:12.556 They are sometimes learning nothing about it, sometimes learning active 0:07:12.556 --> 0:07:15.916 misinformation about it. I think it's a big problem, you know, 0:07:15.996 --> 0:07:18.076 like for our future, we need these kids to be 0:07:18.676 --> 0:07:23.756 active participants, be able to participate in civic deliberation over 0:07:23.836 --> 0:07:28.476 what we do next on this crisis. Let's turn then 0:07:28.556 --> 0:07:31.516 to the part of your book that talks about how 0:07:31.556 --> 0:07:35.276 this is happening did you find that there are shadowy 0:07:35.396 --> 0:07:38.436 groups hiding out there that are trying to pitch the 0:07:38.556 --> 0:07:40.956 narrative that there is no climate change to this day 0:07:41.236 --> 0:07:46.596 in the country, Yes, there are. There's this history of 0:07:46.636 --> 0:07:52.316 the fossil fuel industry borrowing from Big Tobacco's playbook and 0:07:52.556 --> 0:07:58.356 being very coordinated in getting out misinformation about climate change 0:07:58.396 --> 0:08:02.316 because they feared that it would affect their business. And 0:08:02.356 --> 0:08:05.836 this has been very well reported and at one point 0:08:05.876 --> 0:08:07.756 they even had a meeting that we know this from 0:08:07.796 --> 0:08:12.756 a leaked document, in which they made a plan specifically 0:08:13.036 --> 0:08:18.716 to insert their view on climate change into education because 0:08:18.756 --> 0:08:24.596 they wanted to protect against future action on climate change. 0:08:24.876 --> 0:08:27.036 They were at that time, this was in nineteen ninety eight, 0:08:27.036 --> 0:08:30.556 they were worried about Kyoto protocol and then they realized, like, well, 0:08:30.556 --> 0:08:34.876 if we want to protect against Kyoto protocols in the future, 0:08:35.196 --> 0:08:37.796 we got to get it into the minds of kids 0:08:37.836 --> 0:08:40.716 that this is not actually something that they need to 0:08:40.716 --> 0:08:45.276 worry about. So since then, the fossil fuel industry has 0:08:45.276 --> 0:08:47.556 like kind of backed off that at least in its 0:08:47.636 --> 0:08:52.596 most egregious sense, you know, but they're still getting their 0:08:52.636 --> 0:08:57.516 messages into classrooms. They create a ton of classroom materials. 0:08:57.596 --> 0:08:59.796 When you say that you who is the they who's 0:08:59.836 --> 0:09:04.476 creating the classroom materials. So many fossil fuel companies create 0:09:04.676 --> 0:09:09.236 their own educational materials. The American Petroleum Institute has has 0:09:09.276 --> 0:09:13.076 done so and partnered with the National Science Teachers Association. 0:09:13.876 --> 0:09:19.756 And then there's smaller state wide lobbying groups. For example, 0:09:20.036 --> 0:09:25.076 in Arkansas, the Arkansas Oil and Gas Lobby hires a 0:09:25.276 --> 0:09:29.516 person to go classroom to classroom, this is her whole job, 0:09:29.636 --> 0:09:34.396 and give presentations on the fossil fuel industry in Arkansas. 0:09:34.716 --> 0:09:40.436 And as part of that presentation, she explicitly downplays climate 0:09:40.516 --> 0:09:42.516 change and says it's not something that the kids need 0:09:42.556 --> 0:09:46.476 to worry about. That every source of fuel has problems. 0:09:46.876 --> 0:09:51.116 When mills kill birds, you know, solar power can be 0:09:51.156 --> 0:09:54.756 taken out by a tornado. She raises, like, fossil fuels 0:09:54.756 --> 0:09:58.316 have problems, and then every other renewable has problems. Who's 0:09:58.396 --> 0:10:00.796 to say which one is really the best? You know, 0:10:00.956 --> 0:10:03.556 is kind of her talking point on this issue. And 0:10:03.596 --> 0:10:08.156 she's telling this just third graders, seventh graders, tenth graders 0:10:08.196 --> 0:10:13.836 who don't know enough to question those messages, and who 0:10:13.836 --> 0:10:19.036 pays her salary. The Arkansas Oil and gas lobby. I 0:10:19.036 --> 0:10:22.116 think they're called the Independent Oil and Gas Producers. Is 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:26.796 that something similar model that you've observed elsewhere around the country, 0:10:26.836 --> 0:10:30.596 where a fossil fuel lobbying body literally pay someone to 0:10:30.596 --> 0:10:35.076 go classroom to classroom. I haven't found that in every state. 0:10:35.316 --> 0:10:39.876 There are other techniques. I found that in many states 0:10:39.996 --> 0:10:44.156 the oil and gas industry pays for field trips, so 0:10:44.236 --> 0:10:48.276 like you can go visit an oil derek, or visit 0:10:48.316 --> 0:10:52.276 a museum that has gotten a big donation from the 0:10:52.356 --> 0:10:55.636 industry and has a presentation on the history of oil 0:10:55.756 --> 0:11:00.076 the importance of fossil fuel products. In Oklahoma, there is 0:11:00.236 --> 0:11:05.636 an organization it's actually state agency called the Oklahoma Energy 0:11:05.716 --> 0:11:10.356 Resources Board, and they create school book that they send 0:11:10.396 --> 0:11:14.516 out to classrooms as young as kindergarten. So there's a 0:11:14.556 --> 0:11:19.756 book called Petro Pete's Bad Dream in which Petro Pete 0:11:20.156 --> 0:11:23.396 wakes up one day and doesn't have his toothbrush, doesn't 0:11:23.556 --> 0:11:28.436 have his regular clothes, the tires are missing from his bicycle, 0:11:28.836 --> 0:11:32.196 and so you know, eventually he finds out like, oh no, 0:11:32.796 --> 0:11:34.756 what's wrong with today is that I'm missing all my 0:11:34.916 --> 0:11:37.876 petroleum products. And then he wakes up and it was 0:11:37.916 --> 0:11:40.796 all a bad dream, you know, And he says, I 0:11:40.836 --> 0:11:44.316 think this is a direct quote. Having no petroleum products 0:11:44.516 --> 0:11:48.676 is a nightmare. Right, So of curiosity, how old is 0:11:48.716 --> 0:11:52.476 that book? Which just within the last few years and 0:11:52.556 --> 0:11:56.116 it's still being sent out. They've actually created new Petro 0:11:56.276 --> 0:11:59.676 Pete books since then, like in the last year or two. 0:12:00.236 --> 0:12:03.876 So this is not some historical thing that is happening. 0:12:03.876 --> 0:12:07.676 This is actively happening today. Is that different though? I mean, 0:12:07.676 --> 0:12:10.276 the Petro Pete story, it's a great story of a story. 0:12:10.836 --> 0:12:14.756 It sounds a bit different than questioning the science behind 0:12:15.036 --> 0:12:18.476 climate change. Yeah, sure. I mean it's getting a positive 0:12:18.556 --> 0:12:21.036 view of the fossil fuel industry into the minds of kids, 0:12:21.076 --> 0:12:24.116 which is not the same as denying climate change. It 0:12:24.196 --> 0:12:26.956 seems to me that what it is is that you 0:12:26.996 --> 0:12:28.756 have an industry that's very powerful in a state, like 0:12:28.796 --> 0:12:31.636 the fossiliel industry in Oklahoma is super duper powerful, has 0:12:31.676 --> 0:12:34.676 been for well over one hundred years. Right. They want 0:12:34.676 --> 0:12:36.516 people to work in their industry, they want people to 0:12:36.596 --> 0:12:38.996 like them, they want a lobby, and they figure, why 0:12:39.036 --> 0:12:41.556 not start young on those processes. I just don't know 0:12:41.676 --> 0:12:44.236 enough to know whether other industries are as organized as 0:12:44.236 --> 0:12:47.036 the fossil fuel industry is. I'm not saying it's good, 0:12:47.356 --> 0:12:50.516 but it does sound possibly like a different kind of 0:12:50.556 --> 0:12:55.436 thing than trying to question the science of climate change itself. Yeah. 0:12:55.596 --> 0:12:59.236 I think that there are other industries that do very 0:12:59.276 --> 0:13:02.596 similar things, but the difference is that the fossil fuel 0:13:02.596 --> 0:13:05.596 industry is doing real harm to our world, right, like 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:10.356 major or major irreversible harm to these kids futures. I 0:13:10.436 --> 0:13:13.316 guess this springs up a bigger question of how comfortable 0:13:13.396 --> 0:13:16.676 we are having these public private partnerships, if you want 0:13:16.676 --> 0:13:19.596 to call those are kind of like allowing private industry 0:13:19.636 --> 0:13:22.876 into our public schools. And I also want to make 0:13:22.956 --> 0:13:26.396 the point that some of this stuff is very explicit 0:13:26.436 --> 0:13:30.036 about climate change. I did some reporting in twenty seventeen 0:13:30.116 --> 0:13:35.476 twenty eighteen on the nonprofit think tank Heartland, and they 0:13:35.636 --> 0:13:39.676 are libertarian think tank, and they produced a book called 0:13:40.476 --> 0:13:44.276 Why Scientists Disagree about Global Warming, which is infused with 0:13:44.516 --> 0:13:47.676 all these non scientific talking points, and then they mailed 0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:53.076 them to over two hundred thousand science teachers in the US, 0:13:53.116 --> 0:13:56.516 along with a video about solar cycles and how climate 0:13:56.596 --> 0:14:00.316 change is costed by solar cycles. Lots of teachers wound 0:14:00.396 --> 0:14:03.676 up throwing those away, but surely some of them didn't 0:14:03.676 --> 0:14:07.636 know enough or were ideologically aligned and have actually used 0:14:07.636 --> 0:14:11.756 those materials in public school classrooms. I'm glad that you 0:14:11.956 --> 0:14:13.836 brought up the teachers because that's where I was hoping 0:14:13.836 --> 0:14:18.196 to go next. So again, you make a pretty commencing 0:14:18.276 --> 0:14:21.236 case to me that the fossil fuel industry wants to 0:14:21.276 --> 0:14:22.676 be well thought of and would like to the extent 0:14:22.756 --> 0:14:26.316 that it can to call into question climate change. But 0:14:26.356 --> 0:14:29.196 I want to talk about the human beings who teach 0:14:29.236 --> 0:14:33.796 our kids, who are also a crucial part of this story. Now, 0:14:34.276 --> 0:14:36.836 thinking about teachers is they're just like all other human beings. 0:14:37.196 --> 0:14:42.316 They have beliefs and values, and their beliefs about facts 0:14:42.356 --> 0:14:45.796 are influenced by their values, the way our beliefs about 0:14:45.836 --> 0:14:52.276 facts are also influenced by our values. And presumably those 0:14:52.276 --> 0:14:57.156 teachers do have some say in what they want to 0:14:57.196 --> 0:15:00.956 teach in the classroom. What do you think can be 0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:05.756 done in practical terms to change attitudes of teachers in 0:15:05.796 --> 0:15:09.396 a world where teachers come from the same society which 0:15:09.396 --> 0:15:13.076 we live, and in which not quite half, but something 0:15:13.156 --> 0:15:16.196 like roughly half of the people belong to a political 0:15:16.916 --> 0:15:21.156 side of the world that doesn't take climate change. Seriously. Yeah, 0:15:21.196 --> 0:15:25.996 it's a tricky issue. We don't have any definitive numbers 0:15:26.076 --> 0:15:29.916 about what's happening in every classroom in America, but we 0:15:29.996 --> 0:15:33.076 do know from some surveys that about a third of 0:15:33.156 --> 0:15:38.436 teachers tell their students that many scientists believe climate change 0:15:38.516 --> 0:15:42.396 is natural, which is false. That's a patently false statement. 0:15:42.556 --> 0:15:47.036 And yet a third of students are learning in science class, 0:15:47.756 --> 0:15:50.716 you know, and that is because it's, as you point out, 0:15:51.156 --> 0:15:55.716 it's aligned with these teachers belief systems. And it's an 0:15:55.716 --> 0:16:00.476 equity question. Are we comfortable with some kids learning the 0:16:00.516 --> 0:16:04.836 truth and some kids learning lies? And my reporting found 0:16:04.876 --> 0:16:08.156 there's some rough red blue divide. You can kind of 0:16:08.276 --> 0:16:11.116 roughly guess what a kid will learn in school about 0:16:11.196 --> 0:16:13.236 climate change based on whether they live in a red 0:16:13.276 --> 0:16:16.756 state in a blue state. Partly it's because there's Republicans 0:16:16.836 --> 0:16:19.156 in red states and they're more inclined to disbelieve the 0:16:19.156 --> 0:16:22.476 climate science right, But part of it is also a 0:16:22.796 --> 0:16:27.076 state law, Like every state has academic standards of that 0:16:27.236 --> 0:16:30.156 dictate what a kid should learn in a given grade, 0:16:30.196 --> 0:16:35.556 So they leave fourth grade history knowing something about Columbus 0:16:35.636 --> 0:16:38.636 or something like that. And so some states have climate 0:16:38.716 --> 0:16:41.756 change in their standards. Some states don't. There have been 0:16:41.756 --> 0:16:46.476 protracted battles over that in some states. And you know, 0:16:46.516 --> 0:16:49.396 I think lots of people would say that there's kids 0:16:49.396 --> 0:16:51.876 in every state, no matter what community they're born in, 0:16:53.356 --> 0:16:57.716 have a right to the truth. We'll be right back. 0:17:07.116 --> 0:17:10.196 So you said two things that both grab my attention, 0:17:10.236 --> 0:17:13.356 partly because my day job is constitutional lawyer. You talked 0:17:13.356 --> 0:17:15.596 about equity and then you talked about a right to 0:17:15.636 --> 0:17:17.996 the truth. But let's just start with this idea that 0:17:18.036 --> 0:17:20.796 there's an equity right to know the truth. How can 0:17:20.836 --> 0:17:24.836 we say that when there's dispute among teachers and dispute 0:17:24.836 --> 0:17:28.636 among parents about what constitutes the truth, even if there 0:17:28.716 --> 0:17:31.516 is no meaningful dispute among scientists, as I agree with 0:17:31.516 --> 0:17:36.556 you there is not. I mean, does a teacher have 0:17:36.756 --> 0:17:41.036 the right to teach that the earth is flat? Does 0:17:41.076 --> 0:17:43.236 a student have the right to learn that the earth 0:17:43.356 --> 0:17:47.036 is not flat? Like? Where? What is the line of 0:17:47.276 --> 0:17:52.196 how much academic freedom a teacher has versus the right 0:17:52.556 --> 0:17:57.436 of a student to learn something the truth like not 0:17:57.636 --> 0:18:00.276 learn lies? Right? I mean it's a hard question. I 0:18:00.316 --> 0:18:02.396 mean it's a super hard question. And liberals used to 0:18:02.396 --> 0:18:04.396 be on the other side of it right when evolution 0:18:05.076 --> 0:18:07.756 was first being taught in schools in the US, and 0:18:07.956 --> 0:18:10.996 some states tried to ban the teaching of evolution or 0:18:11.036 --> 0:18:13.516 did ban the teaching of evolution, it was liberals. It 0:18:13.556 --> 0:18:17.436 was the ACLU that argued, like in the Scoop's Monkey 0:18:17.476 --> 0:18:22.076 trial which you mentioned in your book, for a free speech, 0:18:22.916 --> 0:18:27.596 freedom of academic judgment, right on behalf of the teachers 0:18:28.276 --> 0:18:31.956 to teach evolution despite the fact that the law in 0:18:31.996 --> 0:18:34.596 the state prohibited it. And that was for a long 0:18:34.636 --> 0:18:39.076 time the mainstream liberal view that teachers at the elementary 0:18:39.116 --> 0:18:41.236 school level on the high school level should be free 0:18:41.236 --> 0:18:44.596 to teach what they say and what they believe. And 0:18:44.636 --> 0:18:47.876 I don't think that's in principle an outrageous idea. We 0:18:47.956 --> 0:18:50.756 probably have a more middle ground now where we think 0:18:50.796 --> 0:18:54.196 that to some degree teachers should be obligated to teach 0:18:54.196 --> 0:18:56.196 a set curriculum, but to some degree they should have 0:18:56.196 --> 0:19:01.116 freedom to editorialize around that curriculum. Certainly, if we were, 0:19:01.236 --> 0:19:03.636 you know, in a state which is banning critical race theory, 0:19:04.316 --> 0:19:07.956 and a teacher got up and taught that the Constitution 0:19:07.956 --> 0:19:10.236 of the United States was based on supremacy, which is 0:19:10.276 --> 0:19:13.516 also a fact insofar as the Constitution included the futuritive 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:16.516 Slave Clause and the three fifth Compromise and other features 0:19:16.516 --> 0:19:20.836 that embedded slavery, and that teacher were fired, I would 0:19:20.876 --> 0:19:24.156 be thrilled to go and represent that teacher pro bono 0:19:24.316 --> 0:19:26.116 on the claim that he or she should have the 0:19:26.196 --> 0:19:31.276 freedom to teach what he or she believes, notwithstanding that 0:19:31.316 --> 0:19:33.836 the state is banning the teaching of critical race theory. 0:19:33.836 --> 0:19:37.996 Wouldn't you. I have a couple of thoughts about that. 0:19:38.036 --> 0:19:41.756 First of all, yes, but what that teacher is teaching 0:19:41.956 --> 0:19:45.676 is the truth, right, Like you wouldn't necessarily jump at 0:19:45.676 --> 0:19:49.796 the chance to defend someone who was insisting on teaching 0:19:49.796 --> 0:19:52.836 that the earth is flat. There's a fundamental difference. You 0:19:52.876 --> 0:19:56.556 can't equate the two. One teaching something that is defensible 0:19:56.636 --> 0:20:01.356 truth and one teaching something that is indefensible that it 0:20:01.396 --> 0:20:05.476 has no bearing on the truth and is only ideological. 0:20:05.556 --> 0:20:08.796 It is only a politically driven And you know you're 0:20:08.876 --> 0:20:11.876 right that. At the beginning of the fight over Darwin 0:20:12.436 --> 0:20:18.316 in schools, the argument was that teachers should have the 0:20:18.396 --> 0:20:22.836 right to teach evolition in schools, but it's very quickly 0:20:23.356 --> 0:20:27.396 evolved into a debate over whether teachers should have the 0:20:27.476 --> 0:20:32.516 right to teach creation in schools, and the courts again 0:20:32.596 --> 0:20:35.116 and again ruled that they do not have the right 0:20:35.196 --> 0:20:39.876 to teach creationism in schools. And that's not because it's falls, 0:20:40.036 --> 0:20:42.676 that's because we have an establishment clause in the Constitution 0:20:43.156 --> 0:20:45.636 that says the state can't teach a religious belief, and 0:20:45.676 --> 0:20:49.956 the courts have repeatedly held the creationism, creation science, intelligent 0:20:50.036 --> 0:20:53.676 design are all proxies for a religious belief, and that's 0:20:53.676 --> 0:20:55.516 why it's unlawful. I mean, one of the things that 0:20:55.556 --> 0:20:58.356 I teach to use the word in my first Amendment class, 0:20:58.436 --> 0:21:00.996 is that there's a weird feature of our law, which 0:21:01.036 --> 0:21:02.876 is that there's nothing in our system that says you 0:21:02.876 --> 0:21:05.956 can only teach the truth to kids, no such proposition. 0:21:06.236 --> 0:21:10.756 And indeed, state legislatures and local school boards decide what 0:21:10.836 --> 0:21:12.876 they think should be taught all the time in our 0:21:12.876 --> 0:21:15.556 country with no manifestation of whether it's true or not. 0:21:15.636 --> 0:21:17.676 I mean, they believe it's true, but that's all the matters. 0:21:18.476 --> 0:21:22.436 Whereas if it's got a religious content, then the Constitution 0:21:22.556 --> 0:21:25.236 kicks in and says you can't teach it. But you 0:21:25.276 --> 0:21:27.876 can teach I always tell them, and it's true false 0:21:27.996 --> 0:21:32.236 things any day of the week in schools without violating 0:21:32.276 --> 0:21:38.316 the constitution or the law provided those aren't religious things. Yeah, 0:21:38.356 --> 0:21:43.156 there is no separation of state and business in the 0:21:43.196 --> 0:21:48.156 same way that there is a separation of state and church. Right, So, yeah, 0:21:48.196 --> 0:21:53.876 you're absolutely right. There's no constitutional protection for students who 0:21:53.916 --> 0:21:57.836 want who pushed back, or who would want to forbid 0:21:57.876 --> 0:22:03.956 teachers their teachers from teaching climate denialism. So what we're 0:22:03.956 --> 0:22:06.876 talking about then, is kind of a consciousness raising project. Yeah. 0:22:06.916 --> 0:22:09.516 I mean what your book does is it tells us 0:22:09.516 --> 0:22:12.316 the story of what's going on out there to raise 0:22:12.356 --> 0:22:16.436 our consciousness and tell us, hey, you know, this climate 0:22:16.516 --> 0:22:21.676 denial business is ubiquitous, pervasive, and you already knew reader 0:22:21.756 --> 0:22:23.676 that it was true in politics, but I'm showing you're 0:22:23.716 --> 0:22:26.316 showing us that it's also true at the level of 0:22:26.356 --> 0:22:29.436 the schools, and therefore it's going to be arguably perpetuated 0:22:29.476 --> 0:22:34.236 over future generations. What do you think, if anything catter 0:22:34.356 --> 0:22:36.156 should be done about that. I mean, it's not your 0:22:36.236 --> 0:22:38.276 job in this book to solve that problem, and I'm 0:22:38.316 --> 0:22:40.516 not asking you too, but I'm just asking you personally, 0:22:40.596 --> 0:22:42.876 since inevitably you must have thought about that having worked 0:22:42.876 --> 0:22:45.876 on this book for a long time and written it. 0:22:45.876 --> 0:22:49.516 It's a good question, and it's not one that I'm 0:22:49.516 --> 0:22:52.676 not an activist. You know, my reporting was focused on 0:22:52.716 --> 0:22:55.276 what the problem is more than what the solution is. 0:22:56.916 --> 0:22:59.476 You know, there's a lot of people who feel that 0:23:00.516 --> 0:23:03.516 to set students up for success, they should at least 0:23:03.636 --> 0:23:09.436 understand the fundamentals of climate change, and those fundaments tools 0:23:09.436 --> 0:23:14.716 can be distilled to eight words. It's happening, it's us, 0:23:16.036 --> 0:23:19.996 it's bad, and there's hope. And if a child walks 0:23:19.996 --> 0:23:24.836 away from an education with that basic understanding of climate change, 0:23:24.876 --> 0:23:27.596 they're doing a lot better than most adults in the world. 0:23:28.436 --> 0:23:31.356 The kids have the most at stake in this issue, 0:23:31.476 --> 0:23:34.556 you know, it's like, this is not a this is 0:23:34.596 --> 0:23:37.476 an issue that will absolutely show up in their lives. 0:23:37.676 --> 0:23:40.996 And also what's at stake is that if we hope 0:23:41.036 --> 0:23:45.556 to prevent the worst outcomes of climate change, all the 0:23:45.596 --> 0:23:50.116 scientists say that we need radical action, and if there 0:23:50.156 --> 0:23:53.516 is still doubt about whether it's even happening and what's 0:23:53.556 --> 0:23:57.916 causing it, that's an innoculation against action. And we are 0:23:57.956 --> 0:24:00.756 dooming to ourselves to a three degree world, a four 0:24:00.756 --> 0:24:04.996 degree world, a world with hundreds of millions of people 0:24:05.116 --> 0:24:08.236 who are displaced, and you know all the other effects. 0:24:08.276 --> 0:24:11.156 I don't need to repeat. I'm sure everyone has heard them. 0:24:12.036 --> 0:24:14.876 So the last of those words in your in your 0:24:14.916 --> 0:24:18.796 list where there's hope, I think it's fair to say 0:24:18.836 --> 0:24:21.196 that it's happening is not controversial. It's us is not 0:24:21.276 --> 0:24:25.956 controversial among scientists. It's bad is not controversial among scientists. 0:24:26.316 --> 0:24:30.156 There's hope is indeed controversial. I heard a lecture recently 0:24:30.196 --> 0:24:33.876 by David Wallace Wells, who published a very widely read 0:24:34.036 --> 0:24:36.796 book in twenty nineteen, I think, based on a New 0:24:36.836 --> 0:24:39.236 York magazine article, and if you could sum up his 0:24:39.996 --> 0:24:42.556 book in three words, it would be there's no hope. 0:24:42.836 --> 0:24:45.076 I mean, his argument is effectively and he is a strong, 0:24:45.236 --> 0:24:48.356 you know, support of environmental intervention. But his view is 0:24:48.356 --> 0:24:52.556 that things are almost certainly already so far gone and 0:24:52.596 --> 0:24:56.476 there is so little practical capacity for change that there's 0:24:56.516 --> 0:24:58.796 really no reason to expect that we're not going to 0:24:58.836 --> 0:25:04.556 face very extreme, disastrous global consequences of climate change. And 0:25:04.596 --> 0:25:06.756 I'm not mentioning this so much to you know, to 0:25:07.076 --> 0:25:09.556 quibble at all with that there's hope. As to note 0:25:10.396 --> 0:25:14.196 that for those people who want climate change should be 0:25:14.196 --> 0:25:16.436 taught in the schools. It's not just about the science. 0:25:16.876 --> 0:25:21.356 It's about a program of interventive change, which is fine, 0:25:21.596 --> 0:25:25.036 nothing wrong with that, but that's different than scientific fact. 0:25:25.516 --> 0:25:30.436 That's seeking the possibility of political action, and that is 0:25:30.516 --> 0:25:34.116 precisely where there's such disagreement in our society about what 0:25:34.196 --> 0:25:38.476 action should or shouldn't be taken. Surely, yeah, climate change 0:25:38.516 --> 0:25:41.876 is already happening, and I think, but there's still a 0:25:41.876 --> 0:25:44.756 big difference between a two degree world and a four 0:25:44.796 --> 0:25:48.876 degree world and a six degree world. Right, so there 0:25:48.916 --> 0:25:55.236 may not be hope for making climate change poof go away, 0:25:55.436 --> 0:26:00.876 but there is a way to minimize future human suffering, 0:26:01.956 --> 0:26:06.796 and that necessarily will involve leaving some fossil fuels in 0:26:06.836 --> 0:26:09.516 the ground, which of course is a big for the 0:26:09.516 --> 0:26:14.036 fossil fuel industry. As for you know what, the I 0:26:14.076 --> 0:26:17.116 think what you're asking is whether it's appropriate to ask 0:26:17.236 --> 0:26:21.756 children to participate in this question of what should we 0:26:21.876 --> 0:26:26.436 do about it? If anything. Some people would say no, 0:26:26.756 --> 0:26:30.756