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Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

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Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

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Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. One of the stories that's most dominant

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Speaker 1: in the news right now is climate change. Behind the

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Speaker 1: story of climate change, though, lies not just the underlying science,

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Speaker 1: but the question of who knows that science and how

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Speaker 1: they learn it. In particular, how is climate change or

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Speaker 1: the absence of climate change a story that some people

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Speaker 1: believe in being taught in schools in the United States.

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Speaker 1: A new book explores precisely that issue. The author is

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Speaker 1: Katie Worth, an investigative journalist who writes about science politics,

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Speaker 1: and there are many intersections. Her book is called Miseducation,

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Speaker 1: How Climate Change Is Taught in America. It shows a

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Speaker 1: number of ways in which fossil fuel companies have influenced

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Speaker 1: science education, and it also shows how the politics of

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Speaker 1: many teachers in the United States affect the way they

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Speaker 1: teach climate science to their students. The book is fascinating

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Speaker 1: and significant and in many ways troubling, and I'm very

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Speaker 1: pleased that Katie is here to discuss it with me today. Katy,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me. We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about your fascinating new book, Miseducation How Climate Change

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Speaker 1: is Taught in America, And I want to begin by

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Speaker 1: asking you just to tell us your basic view of

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Speaker 1: what is going on. How is climate change being taught

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Speaker 1: or not taught in America? Your title missage gives away

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Speaker 1: something of your answer. Yeah, Well, the short answer is

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Speaker 1: that there is a surprising amount of climate skepticism climate

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Speaker 1: denial being taught in public schools. And my reporting kind

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Speaker 1: of went into how that happened and why it matters.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of points of friction in the world

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Speaker 1: of climate education, teachers arguing with other teachers about what

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Speaker 1: should be taught, and administrators mandating that it not be taught,

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Speaker 1: and teachers pushing back, and students and parents mad about it.

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Speaker 1: I found that everywhere that I went, no matter what community,

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Speaker 1: it was in the reddest communities and the bluest communities.

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Speaker 1: But the ultimate takeaway is that the classroom is not

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Speaker 1: this ideologically neutral place when it comes to climate change.

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Speaker 1: In some places, kids are getting a fairly robust education

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Speaker 1: about this issue that's going to define the century they

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Speaker 1: were born into. And then in other places they're actively

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Speaker 1: learning climate denialism. In class. That leads perfectly into the

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Speaker 1: biggest question that I have coming out of reading the book,

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Speaker 1: and it's this, I completely buy the story you're telling.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've convinced me entirely that the teaching of

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Speaker 1: climate changes, as you just put it, not ideologically neutral.

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Speaker 1: Why would we expect that it would be? And the

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Speaker 1: reason I asked that is the teaching of evolution is

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Speaker 1: not ideologically neutral in the United States, a century after

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Speaker 1: we started having our biggest fights about it. Education in

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Speaker 1: the United States is democratically structured with a small D,

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Speaker 1: which means local school boards make decisions and sometimes state

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Speaker 1: legislatures make decisions, and those are political bodies. And we

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Speaker 1: have in the United States a continuing, deep, politicized, partisanized

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Speaker 1: disagreement about climate change, independent of what the science says.

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Speaker 1: So why wouldn't we expect to see the exact same

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Speaker 1: kinds of ideological divisions that you that you find. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we live in a country where you know, one of

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Speaker 1: our two major parties rejects climate science. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I think we have this idea that in an ideal world,

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Speaker 1: kids walk into a science class and learn science and

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Speaker 1: the science is incontrovertible, right like there is no evidence

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Speaker 1: that climate change is not happening or not happening because

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Speaker 1: of humans, and yet kids are learning or told that

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Speaker 1: that's not certain. Right, So, in an ideal world, we

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have to worry about the adult politics seeping into

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Speaker 1: the minds of children. We would just be able to

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Speaker 1: truy that kids are able to access the truth of

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Speaker 1: the matter. That's a fascinating answer, Kittie, and I want

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Speaker 1: to just delve into a little bit if it's okay

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Speaker 1: with you, please, Yeah. So, in an ideal world, I

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Speaker 1: think I hear you saying science would be science and

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Speaker 1: there would be no politics in it. But there is

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Speaker 1: politics and science and more fundamentally, there's always a politics

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Speaker 1: to education. When you teach kids, you're not just teaching

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Speaker 1: them facts. You're also teaching them values, beliefs, ideas. And

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Speaker 1: it may be that the aspiration to treat science as

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Speaker 1: a quote unquote truth sounds good as a matter of

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Speaker 1: pr or polemic in favor of science, but it's not

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Speaker 1: the way that many people think of science, right. Many

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Speaker 1: people think of science as produced by social processes. And

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Speaker 1: if it's produced by social processes, it's susceptible to these

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Speaker 1: kinds of political disagreements. That was maybe more of amusing

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Speaker 1: than a question. But I wonder why you think about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: totally fair. I mean, adult politics make their way into

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Speaker 1: our educational spaces. Period. We're saying that about critical race theory.

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Speaker 1: So it's not in some ways very surprising that that's

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Speaker 1: happening with this issue that is a big point of

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Speaker 1: disagreement among adults. Of course that's going to kind of

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Speaker 1: passively seep into classrooms too. And yet I would argue

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Speaker 1: it's still shocking. And what's shocking about it is that

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Speaker 1: these kids are being born into a century that will

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Speaker 1: be defined by this crisis. There's no child on this

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Speaker 1: earth that will be untouched by this crisis. And they

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Speaker 1: in America. And again, this is a problem in America

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Speaker 1: that is not a problem in many other developed nations.

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Speaker 1: They are sometimes learning nothing about it, sometimes learning active

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Speaker 1: misinformation about it. I think it's a big problem, you know,

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Speaker 1: like for our future, we need these kids to be

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Speaker 1: active participants, be able to participate in civic deliberation over

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Speaker 1: what we do next on this crisis. Let's turn then

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Speaker 1: to the part of your book that talks about how

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Speaker 1: this is happening did you find that there are shadowy

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Speaker 1: groups hiding out there that are trying to pitch the

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Speaker 1: narrative that there is no climate change to this day

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Speaker 1: in the country, Yes, there are. There's this history of

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Speaker 1: the fossil fuel industry borrowing from Big Tobacco's playbook and

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Speaker 1: being very coordinated in getting out misinformation about climate change

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Speaker 1: because they feared that it would affect their business. And

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Speaker 1: this has been very well reported and at one point

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Speaker 1: they even had a meeting that we know this from

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Speaker 1: a leaked document, in which they made a plan specifically

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Speaker 1: to insert their view on climate change into education because

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Speaker 1: they wanted to protect against future action on climate change.

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Speaker 1: They were at that time, this was in nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 1: they were worried about Kyoto protocol and then they realized, like, well,

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Speaker 1: if we want to protect against Kyoto protocols in the future,

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Speaker 1: we got to get it into the minds of kids

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Speaker 1: that this is not actually something that they need to

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Speaker 1: worry about. So since then, the fossil fuel industry has

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Speaker 1: like kind of backed off that at least in its

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Speaker 1: most egregious sense, you know, but they're still getting their

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Speaker 1: messages into classrooms. They create a ton of classroom materials.

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Speaker 1: When you say that you who is the they who's

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Speaker 1: creating the classroom materials. So many fossil fuel companies create

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Speaker 1: their own educational materials. The American Petroleum Institute has has

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Speaker 1: done so and partnered with the National Science Teachers Association.

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Speaker 1: And then there's smaller state wide lobbying groups. For example,

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Speaker 1: in Arkansas, the Arkansas Oil and Gas Lobby hires a

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Speaker 1: person to go classroom to classroom, this is her whole job,

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Speaker 1: and give presentations on the fossil fuel industry in Arkansas.

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Speaker 1: And as part of that presentation, she explicitly downplays climate

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Speaker 1: change and says it's not something that the kids need

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Speaker 1: to worry about. That every source of fuel has problems.

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Speaker 1: When mills kill birds, you know, solar power can be

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Speaker 1: taken out by a tornado. She raises, like, fossil fuels

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Speaker 1: have problems, and then every other renewable has problems. Who's

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Speaker 1: to say which one is really the best? You know,

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Speaker 1: is kind of her talking point on this issue. And

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Speaker 1: she's telling this just third graders, seventh graders, tenth graders

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Speaker 1: who don't know enough to question those messages, and who

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Speaker 1: pays her salary. The Arkansas Oil and gas lobby. I

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Speaker 1: think they're called the Independent Oil and Gas Producers. Is

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Speaker 1: that something similar model that you've observed elsewhere around the country,

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Speaker 1: where a fossil fuel lobbying body literally pay someone to

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Speaker 1: go classroom to classroom. I haven't found that in every state.

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Speaker 1: There are other techniques. I found that in many states

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Speaker 1: the oil and gas industry pays for field trips, so

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Speaker 1: like you can go visit an oil derek, or visit

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Speaker 1: a museum that has gotten a big donation from the

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Speaker 1: industry and has a presentation on the history of oil

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Speaker 1: the importance of fossil fuel products. In Oklahoma, there is

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Speaker 1: an organization it's actually state agency called the Oklahoma Energy

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Speaker 1: Resources Board, and they create school book that they send

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Speaker 1: out to classrooms as young as kindergarten. So there's a

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Speaker 1: book called Petro Pete's Bad Dream in which Petro Pete

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Speaker 1: wakes up one day and doesn't have his toothbrush, doesn't

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Speaker 1: have his regular clothes, the tires are missing from his bicycle,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, eventually he finds out like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with today is that I'm missing all my

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Speaker 1: petroleum products. And then he wakes up and it was

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Speaker 1: all a bad dream, you know, And he says, I

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Speaker 1: think this is a direct quote. Having no petroleum products

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Speaker 1: is a nightmare. Right, So of curiosity, how old is

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Speaker 1: that book? Which just within the last few years and

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Speaker 1: it's still being sent out. They've actually created new Petro

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Speaker 1: Pete books since then, like in the last year or two.

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Speaker 1: So this is not some historical thing that is happening.

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Speaker 1: This is actively happening today. Is that different though? I mean,

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Speaker 1: the Petro Pete story, it's a great story of a story.

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Speaker 1: It sounds a bit different than questioning the science behind

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Speaker 1: climate change. Yeah, sure. I mean it's getting a positive

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Speaker 1: view of the fossil fuel industry into the minds of kids,

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Speaker 1: which is not the same as denying climate change. It

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Speaker 1: seems to me that what it is is that you

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Speaker 1: have an industry that's very powerful in a state, like

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Speaker 1: the fossiliel industry in Oklahoma is super duper powerful, has

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Speaker 1: been for well over one hundred years. Right. They want

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Speaker 1: people to work in their industry, they want people to

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Speaker 1: like them, they want a lobby, and they figure, why

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Speaker 1: not start young on those processes. I just don't know

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Speaker 1: enough to know whether other industries are as organized as

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Speaker 1: the fossil fuel industry is. I'm not saying it's good,

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Speaker 1: but it does sound possibly like a different kind of

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Speaker 1: thing than trying to question the science of climate change itself. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that there are other industries that do very

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Speaker 1: similar things, but the difference is that the fossil fuel

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Speaker 1: industry is doing real harm to our world, right, like

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Speaker 1: major or major irreversible harm to these kids futures. I

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Speaker 1: guess this springs up a bigger question of how comfortable

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Speaker 1: we are having these public private partnerships, if you want

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Speaker 1: to call those are kind of like allowing private industry

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Speaker 1: into our public schools. And I also want to make

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Speaker 1: the point that some of this stuff is very explicit

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Speaker 1: about climate change. I did some reporting in twenty seventeen

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen on the nonprofit think tank Heartland, and they

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Speaker 1: are libertarian think tank, and they produced a book called

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Speaker 1: Why Scientists Disagree about Global Warming, which is infused with

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Speaker 1: all these non scientific talking points, and then they mailed

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Speaker 1: them to over two hundred thousand science teachers in the US,

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Speaker 1: along with a video about solar cycles and how climate

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Speaker 1: change is costed by solar cycles. Lots of teachers wound

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Speaker 1: up throwing those away, but surely some of them didn't

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Speaker 1: know enough or were ideologically aligned and have actually used

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Speaker 1: those materials in public school classrooms. I'm glad that you

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Speaker 1: brought up the teachers because that's where I was hoping

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Speaker 1: to go next. So again, you make a pretty commencing

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Speaker 1: case to me that the fossil fuel industry wants to

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Speaker 1: be well thought of and would like to the extent

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Speaker 1: that it can to call into question climate change. But

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the human beings who teach

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Speaker 1: our kids, who are also a crucial part of this story. Now,

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Speaker 1: thinking about teachers is they're just like all other human beings.

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Speaker 1: They have beliefs and values, and their beliefs about facts

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Speaker 1: are influenced by their values, the way our beliefs about

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Speaker 1: facts are also influenced by our values. And presumably those

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Speaker 1: teachers do have some say in what they want to

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Speaker 1: teach in the classroom. What do you think can be

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Speaker 1: done in practical terms to change attitudes of teachers in

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Speaker 1: a world where teachers come from the same society which

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Speaker 1: we live, and in which not quite half, but something

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Speaker 1: like roughly half of the people belong to a political

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Speaker 1: side of the world that doesn't take climate change. Seriously. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a tricky issue. We don't have any definitive numbers

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Speaker 1: about what's happening in every classroom in America, but we

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Speaker 1: do know from some surveys that about a third of

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Speaker 1: teachers tell their students that many scientists believe climate change

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Speaker 1: is natural, which is false. That's a patently false statement.

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Speaker 1: And yet a third of students are learning in science class,

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Speaker 1: you know, and that is because it's, as you point out,

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Speaker 1: it's aligned with these teachers belief systems. And it's an

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Speaker 1: equity question. Are we comfortable with some kids learning the

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Speaker 1: truth and some kids learning lies? And my reporting found

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Speaker 1: there's some rough red blue divide. You can kind of

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Speaker 1: roughly guess what a kid will learn in school about

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Speaker 1: climate change based on whether they live in a red

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Speaker 1: state in a blue state. Partly it's because there's Republicans

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Speaker 1: in red states and they're more inclined to disbelieve the

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Speaker 1: climate science right, But part of it is also a

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Speaker 1: state law, Like every state has academic standards of that

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Speaker 1: dictate what a kid should learn in a given grade,

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Speaker 1: So they leave fourth grade history knowing something about Columbus

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Speaker 1: or something like that. And so some states have climate

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Speaker 1: change in their standards. Some states don't. There have been

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Speaker 1: protracted battles over that in some states. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think lots of people would say that there's kids

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Speaker 1: in every state, no matter what community they're born in,

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Speaker 1: have a right to the truth. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1: So you said two things that both grab my attention,

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Speaker 1: partly because my day job is constitutional lawyer. You talked

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Speaker 1: about equity and then you talked about a right to

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Speaker 1: the truth. But let's just start with this idea that

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Speaker 1: there's an equity right to know the truth. How can

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Speaker 1: we say that when there's dispute among teachers and dispute

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Speaker 1: among parents about what constitutes the truth, even if there

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Speaker 1: is no meaningful dispute among scientists, as I agree with

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Speaker 1: you there is not. I mean, does a teacher have

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Speaker 1: the right to teach that the earth is flat? Does

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Speaker 1: a student have the right to learn that the earth

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Speaker 1: is not flat? Like? Where? What is the line of

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Speaker 1: how much academic freedom a teacher has versus the right

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Speaker 1: of a student to learn something the truth like not

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Speaker 1: learn lies? Right? I mean it's a hard question. I

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Speaker 1: mean it's a super hard question. And liberals used to

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Speaker 1: be on the other side of it right when evolution

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Speaker 1: was first being taught in schools in the US, and

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Speaker 1: some states tried to ban the teaching of evolution or

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Speaker 1: did ban the teaching of evolution, it was liberals. It

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Speaker 1: was the ACLU that argued, like in the Scoop's Monkey

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Speaker 1: trial which you mentioned in your book, for a free speech,

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Speaker 1: freedom of academic judgment, right on behalf of the teachers

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Speaker 1: to teach evolution despite the fact that the law in

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Speaker 1: the state prohibited it. And that was for a long

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Speaker 1: time the mainstream liberal view that teachers at the elementary

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Speaker 1: school level on the high school level should be free

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Speaker 1: to teach what they say and what they believe. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's in principle an outrageous idea. We

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Speaker 1: probably have a more middle ground now where we think

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Speaker 1: that to some degree teachers should be obligated to teach

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Speaker 1: a set curriculum, but to some degree they should have

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Speaker 1: freedom to editorialize around that curriculum. Certainly, if we were,

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Speaker 1: you know, in a state which is banning critical race theory,

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Speaker 1: and a teacher got up and taught that the Constitution

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Speaker 1: of the United States was based on supremacy, which is

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Speaker 1: also a fact insofar as the Constitution included the futuritive

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Speaker 1: Slave Clause and the three fifth Compromise and other features

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Speaker 1: that embedded slavery, and that teacher were fired, I would

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Speaker 1: be thrilled to go and represent that teacher pro bono

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Speaker 1: on the claim that he or she should have the

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Speaker 1: freedom to teach what he or she believes, notwithstanding that

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Speaker 1: the state is banning the teaching of critical race theory.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't you. I have a couple of thoughts about that.

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Speaker 1: First of all, yes, but what that teacher is teaching

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Speaker 1: is the truth, right, Like you wouldn't necessarily jump at

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Speaker 1: the chance to defend someone who was insisting on teaching

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Speaker 1: that the earth is flat. There's a fundamental difference. You

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Speaker 1: can't equate the two. One teaching something that is defensible

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Speaker 1: truth and one teaching something that is indefensible that it

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Speaker 1: has no bearing on the truth and is only ideological.

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Speaker 1: It is only a politically driven And you know you're

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Speaker 1: right that. At the beginning of the fight over Darwin

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Speaker 1: in schools, the argument was that teachers should have the

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Speaker 1: right to teach evolition in schools, but it's very quickly

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Speaker 1: evolved into a debate over whether teachers should have the

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Speaker 1: right to teach creation in schools, and the courts again

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Speaker 1: and again ruled that they do not have the right

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Speaker 1: to teach creationism in schools. And that's not because it's falls,

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Speaker 1: that's because we have an establishment clause in the Constitution

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Speaker 1: that says the state can't teach a religious belief, and

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Speaker 1: the courts have repeatedly held the creationism, creation science, intelligent

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Speaker 1: design are all proxies for a religious belief, and that's

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Speaker 1: why it's unlawful. I mean, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I teach to use the word in my first Amendment class,

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Speaker 1: is that there's a weird feature of our law, which

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Speaker 1: is that there's nothing in our system that says you

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Speaker 1: can only teach the truth to kids, no such proposition.

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Speaker 1: And indeed, state legislatures and local school boards decide what

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Speaker 1: they think should be taught all the time in our

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Speaker 1: country with no manifestation of whether it's true or not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they believe it's true, but that's all the matters.

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Speaker 1: Whereas if it's got a religious content, then the Constitution

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Speaker 1: kicks in and says you can't teach it. But you

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Speaker 1: can teach I always tell them, and it's true false

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Speaker 1: things any day of the week in schools without violating

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Speaker 1: the constitution or the law provided those aren't religious things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is no separation of state and business in the

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Speaker 1: same way that there is a separation of state and church. Right, So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. There's no constitutional protection for students who

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Speaker 1: want who pushed back, or who would want to forbid

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Speaker 1: teachers their teachers from teaching climate denialism. So what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about then, is kind of a consciousness raising project. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean what your book does is it tells us

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Speaker 1: the story of what's going on out there to raise

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Speaker 1: our consciousness and tell us, hey, you know, this climate

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Speaker 1: denial business is ubiquitous, pervasive, and you already knew reader

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Speaker 1: that it was true in politics, but I'm showing you're

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Speaker 1: showing us that it's also true at the level of

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Speaker 1: the schools, and therefore it's going to be arguably perpetuated

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Speaker 1: over future generations. What do you think, if anything catter

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Speaker 1: should be done about that. I mean, it's not your

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Speaker 1: job in this book to solve that problem, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not asking you too, but I'm just asking you personally,

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Speaker 1: since inevitably you must have thought about that having worked

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Speaker 1: on this book for a long time and written it.

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Speaker 1: It's a good question, and it's not one that I'm

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Speaker 1: not an activist. You know, my reporting was focused on

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Speaker 1: what the problem is more than what the solution is.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of people who feel that

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Speaker 1: to set students up for success, they should at least

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Speaker 1: understand the fundamentals of climate change, and those fundaments tools

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Speaker 1: can be distilled to eight words. It's happening, it's us,

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Speaker 1: it's bad, and there's hope. And if a child walks

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Speaker 1: away from an education with that basic understanding of climate change,

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Speaker 1: they're doing a lot better than most adults in the world.

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Speaker 1: The kids have the most at stake in this issue,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like, this is not a this is

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Speaker 1: an issue that will absolutely show up in their lives.

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Speaker 1: And also what's at stake is that if we hope

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Speaker 1: to prevent the worst outcomes of climate change, all the

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Speaker 1: scientists say that we need radical action, and if there

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Speaker 1: is still doubt about whether it's even happening and what's

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Speaker 1: causing it, that's an innoculation against action. And we are

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Speaker 1: dooming to ourselves to a three degree world, a four

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Speaker 1: degree world, a world with hundreds of millions of people

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Speaker 1: who are displaced, and you know all the other effects.

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Speaker 1: I don't need to repeat. I'm sure everyone has heard them.

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Speaker 1: So the last of those words in your in your

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Speaker 1: list where there's hope, I think it's fair to say

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Speaker 1: that it's happening is not controversial. It's us is not

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Speaker 1: controversial among scientists. It's bad is not controversial among scientists.

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Speaker 1: There's hope is indeed controversial. I heard a lecture recently

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Speaker 1: by David Wallace Wells, who published a very widely read

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Speaker 1: book in twenty nineteen, I think, based on a New

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Speaker 1: York magazine article, and if you could sum up his

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Speaker 1: book in three words, it would be there's no hope.

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Speaker 1: I mean, his argument is effectively and he is a strong,

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Speaker 1: you know, support of environmental intervention. But his view is

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Speaker 1: that things are almost certainly already so far gone and

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Speaker 1: there is so little practical capacity for change that there's

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Speaker 1: really no reason to expect that we're not going to

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Speaker 1: face very extreme, disastrous global consequences of climate change. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not mentioning this so much to you know, to

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Speaker 1: quibble at all with that there's hope. As to note

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Speaker 1: that for those people who want climate change should be

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Speaker 1: taught in the schools. It's not just about the science.

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Speaker 1: It's about a program of interventive change, which is fine,

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that, but that's different than scientific fact.

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Speaker 1: That's seeking the possibility of political action, and that is

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Speaker 1: precisely where there's such disagreement in our society about what

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Speaker 1: action should or shouldn't be taken. Surely, yeah, climate change

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Speaker 1: is already happening, and I think, but there's still a

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Speaker 1: big difference between a two degree world and a four

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Speaker 1: degree world and a six degree world. Right, so there

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Speaker 1: may not be hope for making climate change poof go away,

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Speaker 1: but there is a way to minimize future human suffering,

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Speaker 1: and that necessarily will involve leaving some fossil fuels in

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Speaker 1: the ground, which of course is a big for the

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Speaker 1: fossil fuel industry. As for you know what, the I

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Speaker 1: think what you're asking is whether it's appropriate to ask

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Speaker 1: children to participate in this question of what should we

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Speaker 1: do about it? If anything. Some people would say no,

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Speaker 1: that's not what education should be about. But others would

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Speaker 1: say that's exactly what education should be about. That we

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Speaker 1: are creating future citizens who are going to have to

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Speaker 1: participate in civic discourse, and that it's completely a central

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Speaker 1: part of education to prepare them for that. But if

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Speaker 1: we never know the words climate change, if we never

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Speaker 1: hear those in school, we are not set up for

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Speaker 1: success as individuals or as a society. So I happen

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Speaker 1: to agree one hundred percent with the second view that

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Speaker 1: you articulated. I think that education necessarily entails not just

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Speaker 1: truth or facts, which I think is a wildly overused

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Speaker 1: option of education and not very realistic in most cases.

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Speaker 1: But I'm deeply committed to and I think education is

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Speaker 1: deeply engaged with the idea of creating possibilities for action

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Speaker 1: and for engagement in the world. So I'm completely with

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Speaker 1: you on that being what education is ultimately all about,

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Speaker 1: it tactically doable. Is it reasonable to then tack back

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Speaker 1: and say, well, the problem with the fact that people

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Speaker 1: are teaching a different view of climate change is that

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Speaker 1: it's false, is that it's not the truth, when in fact,

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Speaker 1: I believe at least what's motivating climate change denialism is

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Speaker 1: not that people want to be ostriches. It's that they

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Speaker 1: have a different normative view about what we ought to

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Speaker 1: do in the world. They weigh risk differently, and they

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Speaker 1: may also be ignorant but I think in many cases

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Speaker 1: people are not. They have a different view of how

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Speaker 1: the world ought to be engaged with, They want to

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Speaker 1: do different things. And that's why it's a political dispute

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Speaker 1: in the United States, because the political parties are fundamentally

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Speaker 1: in disagreement about how to conduct the world and how

431
00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:13,956
Speaker 1: to conduct our lives. And so the question that I'm

432
00:28:13,996 --> 00:28:16,716
Speaker 1: trying to explore, and admittedly it's a hard puzzle, and

433
00:28:16,716 --> 00:28:18,396
Speaker 1: so that's why I'm making a lot of noise about

434
00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:24,076
Speaker 1: it now, is how can one say, well, you shouldn't

435
00:28:24,116 --> 00:28:27,116
Speaker 1: teach that other side because that's not true, and then

436
00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:28,916
Speaker 1: at the same time say the reason we need to

437
00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:30,716
Speaker 1: teach this is we need to do certain things about

438
00:28:30,756 --> 00:28:33,876
Speaker 1: it which are not about truth, but are about doing things.

439
00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:35,916
Speaker 1: Those seem to me at least a little bit intention

440
00:28:35,996 --> 00:28:39,676
Speaker 1: with each other. I mean, I think we're talking about

441
00:28:39,676 --> 00:28:43,916
Speaker 1: two different things. I feel comfortable saying we shouldn't teach

442
00:28:43,956 --> 00:28:47,156
Speaker 1: lies in school, and that shouldn't be the right of

443
00:28:47,196 --> 00:28:50,836
Speaker 1: a teacher to teach something that is demonstrably false. So

444
00:28:50,876 --> 00:28:54,436
Speaker 1: when we're talking about those first three things, it's real,

445
00:28:55,236 --> 00:29:00,756
Speaker 1: it's us, it's bad. There is scientific consensus on that.

446
00:29:00,996 --> 00:29:05,836
Speaker 1: And yet one third of teachers self report that they

447
00:29:05,916 --> 00:29:10,636
Speaker 1: teach students that it's debateable, right, and so I think

448
00:29:10,716 --> 00:29:13,716
Speaker 1: that shouldn't happen. I think we shouldn't teach things that

449
00:29:13,756 --> 00:29:16,596
Speaker 1: are false, So we shouldn't tell kids falsehoods in their

450
00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:21,276
Speaker 1: public education. And then the question of you know, whether

451
00:29:21,596 --> 00:29:25,116
Speaker 1: the fourth thing there's hope, what should we do about it?

452
00:29:25,316 --> 00:29:28,996
Speaker 1: If anything, that's a reasonable thing to have a disagreement over.

453
00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:33,556
Speaker 1: So when we think about how to conduct a process

454
00:29:33,716 --> 00:29:37,196
Speaker 1: of moving the world in a direction where a third

455
00:29:37,196 --> 00:29:39,916
Speaker 1: of teachers would not be self reporting that they're teaching

456
00:29:40,636 --> 00:29:43,996
Speaker 1: that there is a non existent dispute among scientists here,

457
00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:48,916
Speaker 1: how do we get there? It's a really tricky question.

458
00:29:49,076 --> 00:29:51,636
Speaker 1: I mean, the truth is that a lot of teachers

459
00:29:52,236 --> 00:29:56,676
Speaker 1: didn't learn a thing about it themselves in school, and

460
00:29:56,956 --> 00:30:00,316
Speaker 1: they are not necessarily very prepared to teach it with

461
00:30:00,476 --> 00:30:03,996
Speaker 1: any depth. So, you know, there's some interesting projects out there.

462
00:30:04,116 --> 00:30:09,396
Speaker 1: I think Washington State has this program right now. They

463
00:30:09,516 --> 00:30:14,716
Speaker 1: have put some significant money into professional development program, so

464
00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:19,156
Speaker 1: basically teaching teachers how to teach climate change. So every

465
00:30:19,156 --> 00:30:22,716
Speaker 1: science teacher in the state has gone through that now.

466
00:30:22,756 --> 00:30:26,116
Speaker 1: I think it's one out of five teachers receive that

467
00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:29,316
Speaker 1: professional development in the first two years of the program,

468
00:30:29,316 --> 00:30:31,636
Speaker 1: and it's ongoing and they're trying to get to every teacher.

469
00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:36,356
Speaker 1: So programs like that can actually where they really focus

470
00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:40,636
Speaker 1: on getting teachers educated on the subject, that can have

471
00:30:40,956 --> 00:30:44,636
Speaker 1: a big impact. But of course, what happens in Washington

472
00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:48,076
Speaker 1: State might not happen in Oklahoma. Yeah. I worry that,

473
00:30:48,236 --> 00:30:50,476
Speaker 1: let's say there were a national movement to go to

474
00:30:50,516 --> 00:30:54,276
Speaker 1: state legislatures and get them to pass laws outlawing the

475
00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:59,196
Speaker 1: teaching of climate change denialisms, sort of like the laws

476
00:30:59,196 --> 00:31:02,276
Speaker 1: that are outlining the teaching of critical race theory, that

477
00:31:02,356 --> 00:31:04,396
Speaker 1: it would backfire and then you'd get a bunch of

478
00:31:04,436 --> 00:31:08,036
Speaker 1: states passing laws outlawing the teaching of climate science. I mean,

479
00:31:08,076 --> 00:31:10,156
Speaker 1: I'm actually a little surprised that no state, as far

480
00:31:10,196 --> 00:31:11,996
Speaker 1: as I can tell from your book, has yet passed

481
00:31:11,996 --> 00:31:15,836
Speaker 1: a law saying to teachers, you may not teach that

482
00:31:16,076 --> 00:31:18,956
Speaker 1: the climate is being changed by humans. They've tried, but

483
00:31:19,316 --> 00:31:21,876
Speaker 1: nobody has successfully. Nobody has actually managed to get it

484
00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:25,236
Speaker 1: past yet. Yeah, so a national lobbying approach isn't going

485
00:31:25,276 --> 00:31:27,076
Speaker 1: to work. You think it's a kind of teacher by teacher,

486
00:31:27,676 --> 00:31:32,036
Speaker 1: district by district effort to get good science in front

487
00:31:32,036 --> 00:31:34,076
Speaker 1: of people's eyes so that they will move in a

488
00:31:34,116 --> 00:31:38,476
Speaker 1: better direction. You know, I'm not an expert on organizing

489
00:31:38,596 --> 00:31:42,636
Speaker 1: and change making, but from the folks that I talked to, yeah,

490
00:31:42,756 --> 00:31:46,796
Speaker 1: that's a major approach. Changing academic standards so that they

491
00:31:46,836 --> 00:31:50,396
Speaker 1: include climate change, so that you know, every seventh grade

492
00:31:50,396 --> 00:31:55,436
Speaker 1: teacher in the state must include climate change, the greenhouse effect, etc.

493
00:31:55,916 --> 00:31:59,196
Speaker 1: In their curricula at some point in the year. And

494
00:31:59,476 --> 00:32:01,716
Speaker 1: that's been a big push. There's been a big push

495
00:32:01,756 --> 00:32:04,076
Speaker 1: to do that. And then there's been some states I think,

496
00:32:04,476 --> 00:32:08,116
Speaker 1: you know, notably New Jersey just recently passed new academic

497
00:32:08,156 --> 00:32:11,236
Speaker 1: standards that include climate change, not just in science classes,

498
00:32:11,276 --> 00:32:16,116
Speaker 1: but in Civics classes, in English classes, I think, in

499
00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:19,756
Speaker 1: a math class. Right. So like there, this is something

500
00:32:19,756 --> 00:32:23,156
Speaker 1: that kids don't learn about in a single unit, you know,

501
00:32:23,316 --> 00:32:26,956
Speaker 1: in seventh grade science, but they get it repeatedly touched

502
00:32:26,956 --> 00:32:30,036
Speaker 1: back on it from different angles, right, not just from

503
00:32:30,036 --> 00:32:34,356
Speaker 1: the scientific angle, but from the civic single. Katie, last question,

504
00:32:34,516 --> 00:32:38,796
Speaker 1: based on your reporting, if you had to look forward,

505
00:32:38,876 --> 00:32:41,756
Speaker 1: say ten years or twenty years into the future, do

506
00:32:41,796 --> 00:32:44,476
Speaker 1: you think things are going to be any better? I mean,

507
00:32:44,516 --> 00:32:47,876
Speaker 1: do you think the extreme climate events that we're experiencing

508
00:32:47,916 --> 00:32:52,396
Speaker 1: on a everyday basis, it seems this year might have

509
00:32:52,476 --> 00:32:56,036
Speaker 1: an impact. Or do you think that the institutional interests

510
00:32:56,236 --> 00:33:00,036
Speaker 1: of the fossil fuel industry plus the political interests of

511
00:33:00,516 --> 00:33:05,636
Speaker 1: climate change deniers are so powerful that basically when you

512
00:33:05,676 --> 00:33:08,436
Speaker 1: publish an anniversary edition ten years out or twenty years

513
00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:11,756
Speaker 1: out of this book once it's become a classic, do

514
00:33:11,756 --> 00:33:13,196
Speaker 1: you think it would have to be changed a lot.

515
00:33:13,196 --> 00:33:14,636
Speaker 1: Are you're gonna have to write a forward that says,

516
00:33:14,636 --> 00:33:16,836
Speaker 1: of course everything has changed, or would you say, basically

517
00:33:16,836 --> 00:33:19,116
Speaker 1: what I described is still true now ten or twenty

518
00:33:19,156 --> 00:33:24,156
Speaker 1: years later. I really hesitated to answer prediction questions. But

519
00:33:24,796 --> 00:33:28,556
Speaker 1: what I've seen is that there's a growing red blue divide.

520
00:33:28,596 --> 00:33:31,916
Speaker 1: So like what I would imagine is that blue states

521
00:33:31,996 --> 00:33:34,276
Speaker 1: may in ten years really be on top of this,

522
00:33:34,556 --> 00:33:37,276
Speaker 1: and maybe even some red states. So where climate change

523
00:33:37,436 --> 00:33:40,276
Speaker 1: is present in many different classes, kids are getting a

524
00:33:40,276 --> 00:33:43,876
Speaker 1: really robust education about it, and then the states where

525
00:33:44,476 --> 00:33:48,836
Speaker 1: ideologically that is not welcome, kids may be continuing to

526
00:33:48,916 --> 00:33:53,676
Speaker 1: learn misinformation about it or nothing at all. I mean

527
00:33:53,716 --> 00:33:57,316
Speaker 1: that said, though, I met teachers in the reddest state,

528
00:33:57,396 --> 00:34:00,556
Speaker 1: kind of intrepid teachers and the reddest states and in

529
00:34:00,596 --> 00:34:04,276
Speaker 1: the reddest parts of blue states, who really cared about

530
00:34:04,276 --> 00:34:06,836
Speaker 1: this issue, knew a lot about it, approached it in

531
00:34:06,836 --> 00:34:10,836
Speaker 1: a really professional way, and their students had the benefit

532
00:34:10,876 --> 00:34:14,596
Speaker 1: of that. Did you leave the book after the research

533
00:34:14,636 --> 00:34:17,956
Speaker 1: and they're writing more optimistic about our future or more pessimistic?

534
00:34:20,196 --> 00:34:22,876
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a lot of despair in my

535
00:34:22,916 --> 00:34:26,156
Speaker 1: heart about the future when it comes to climate change.

536
00:34:26,396 --> 00:34:29,316
Speaker 1: I would say that it helped to talk to teachers

537
00:34:29,356 --> 00:34:34,116
Speaker 1: who are, to paint with a very broadbrush, very optimistic people,

538
00:34:34,276 --> 00:34:37,276
Speaker 1: and they're talking to the kids, and they feel that

539
00:34:37,596 --> 00:34:41,636
Speaker 1: humans are great at innovation when we are forced to be,

540
00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:46,556
Speaker 1: and hopefully we'll be able to get it together. I mean,

541
00:34:46,676 --> 00:34:51,436
Speaker 1: especially as climate change is no longer this hypothetical, futuristic thing.

542
00:34:51,436 --> 00:34:54,436
Speaker 1: It's happening to us right now, and as that becomes

543
00:34:54,476 --> 00:34:56,556
Speaker 1: more and more obviously, it'll be harder and harder to

544
00:34:56,716 --> 00:35:01,836
Speaker 1: deny it. What about you, what's your feeling. I've left

545
00:35:01,916 --> 00:35:06,556
Speaker 1: reading your book more pessimistic than when I came into

546
00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:09,476
Speaker 1: reading the book. I'm not sure what my baseline, but

547
00:35:09,516 --> 00:35:13,196
Speaker 1: I was really struck by how hard it is to

548
00:35:13,236 --> 00:35:15,636
Speaker 1: make the kind of change that I would certainly like

549
00:35:15,716 --> 00:35:19,676
Speaker 1: to see, given not so much the institutional side, though

550
00:35:19,676 --> 00:35:24,076
Speaker 1: that seemed really bad, but given the beliefs of teachers themselves,

551
00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:29,556
Speaker 1: who are after all, human beings and have beliefs and

552
00:35:29,676 --> 00:35:32,876
Speaker 1: values and attitudes and are not just machines who teach

553
00:35:32,916 --> 00:35:36,596
Speaker 1: whatever comes out of the curricular machine at them. So

554
00:35:36,636 --> 00:35:40,276
Speaker 1: that left me actually more depressed about the educational side

555
00:35:40,316 --> 00:35:42,836
Speaker 1: than I came into. But I also was very grateful

556
00:35:42,956 --> 00:35:47,276
Speaker 1: for the book Becaich I think is important and significant

557
00:35:47,836 --> 00:35:51,396
Speaker 1: because it tells the story of what's going on, and

558
00:35:51,476 --> 00:35:54,636
Speaker 1: that story enables people like me to say, WHOA, there's

559
00:35:54,676 --> 00:35:57,276
Speaker 1: a real structural problem here, and we need to think

560
00:35:57,396 --> 00:35:59,556
Speaker 1: long and hard about what to do about it. So

561
00:35:59,556 --> 00:36:01,076
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for the book, and I

562
00:36:01,116 --> 00:36:02,956
Speaker 1: want to thank you for a conversation, and thank you

563
00:36:02,996 --> 00:36:06,716
Speaker 1: also for tolerating my mulling over or trying to explore

564
00:36:06,956 --> 00:36:10,076
Speaker 1: what could be done given the commitments that we have

565
00:36:10,276 --> 00:36:13,916
Speaker 1: to teachers and to their ability to at least to

566
00:36:13,956 --> 00:36:16,596
Speaker 1: some degree, teach what they believe to be true, even

567
00:36:16,676 --> 00:36:19,036
Speaker 1: where as you point out, we would really prefer teachers

568
00:36:19,076 --> 00:36:22,076
Speaker 1: not to teach things that the scientific community has reached

569
00:36:22,076 --> 00:36:26,716
Speaker 1: consensus on being false. Yeah, I appreciate how deeply you

570
00:36:26,756 --> 00:36:28,916
Speaker 1: think about this stuff. It was a really good conversation.

571
00:36:28,996 --> 00:36:30,836
Speaker 1: It was an amazing book. I really learned. I learned

572
00:36:30,836 --> 00:36:33,036
Speaker 1: a ton from it. Any as I said, it's scary,

573
00:36:33,076 --> 00:36:34,956
Speaker 1: it's scary. Book scared me, Which maybe is the one

574
00:36:34,996 --> 00:36:48,996
Speaker 1: is sociitude. Thanks so much. We'll be right back. Talking

575
00:36:49,036 --> 00:36:52,836
Speaker 1: to Katie Worth about her fascinating book Miseducation How Climate

576
00:36:52,916 --> 00:36:56,316
Speaker 1: Change is Taught in America left me, as I mentioned

577
00:36:56,356 --> 00:36:59,236
Speaker 1: at the end of the interview, saddened and a little

578
00:36:59,236 --> 00:37:03,276
Speaker 1: bit worried about just how we can approach the problem

579
00:37:03,316 --> 00:37:07,956
Speaker 1: of changing what's taught in classrooms when so many Americans

580
00:37:08,316 --> 00:37:14,396
Speaker 1: themselves question climate change. One possibility, call it the optimistic

581
00:37:14,476 --> 00:37:17,876
Speaker 1: depressing one, is that things will just get so bad

582
00:37:17,956 --> 00:37:21,036
Speaker 1: in the foreseeable future that the man made nature of

583
00:37:21,076 --> 00:37:24,316
Speaker 1: climate change will come to seem much more obvious and evident,

584
00:37:24,876 --> 00:37:30,556
Speaker 1: even to Republicans who otherwise share political values that question

585
00:37:30,876 --> 00:37:35,916
Speaker 1: the climate science. In this picture, things get bad, and

586
00:37:35,996 --> 00:37:40,356
Speaker 1: as a consequence, views change, and it becomes slowly but

587
00:37:40,436 --> 00:37:45,036
Speaker 1: gradually possible to do more. But there's another scenario in

588
00:37:45,036 --> 00:37:49,076
Speaker 1: which the political parties are so deeply divided about so

589
00:37:49,116 --> 00:37:52,356
Speaker 1: many aspects of the right way to live that their

590
00:37:52,396 --> 00:37:55,796
Speaker 1: disagreements about the right way to address climate issues and

591
00:37:55,836 --> 00:38:01,116
Speaker 1: to address fossil fuels is simply, at this point indistinguishable

592
00:38:01,476 --> 00:38:07,196
Speaker 1: from people's views about science itself. On this theory, when

593
00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:11,876
Speaker 1: teachers falsely say that there is no consensus among scientists

594
00:38:11,916 --> 00:38:15,476
Speaker 1: about climate change, it's not just that they're saying something

595
00:38:15,516 --> 00:38:19,916
Speaker 1: that's inaccurate. They're also reflecting a deeply held set of

596
00:38:19,916 --> 00:38:23,436
Speaker 1: political values and ideals. And when it comes to values

597
00:38:23,436 --> 00:38:27,756
Speaker 1: and ideals like that, it's pretty difficult to legislate away

598
00:38:28,116 --> 00:38:32,156
Speaker 1: the teaching of things that people in fact believe. This

599
00:38:32,316 --> 00:38:34,596
Speaker 1: brings us to what was for me, and you could

600
00:38:34,596 --> 00:38:36,396
Speaker 1: probably hear it in my voice when I was talking

601
00:38:36,436 --> 00:38:39,996
Speaker 1: to Katy Worth, a really hard problem to which I

602
00:38:40,036 --> 00:38:43,076
Speaker 1: don't have a definitive answer. On the one hand, I

603
00:38:43,116 --> 00:38:45,676
Speaker 1: agree with Katie that when we teach science in the schools,

604
00:38:45,836 --> 00:38:48,596
Speaker 1: it should be to the extent possible, true science and

605
00:38:48,716 --> 00:38:51,276
Speaker 1: up to date science. On the other hand, I have

606
00:38:51,316 --> 00:38:53,716
Speaker 1: a lot of respect for people who devote their lives

607
00:38:53,956 --> 00:38:58,356
Speaker 1: to teaching our kids in elementary and secondary schools, and

608
00:38:58,396 --> 00:39:02,116
Speaker 1: I want them to have a degree of capacity and

609
00:39:02,236 --> 00:39:07,116
Speaker 1: freedom to teach their own interpretation of what they are teaching.

610
00:39:07,156 --> 00:39:11,836
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, that makes it very hard

611
00:39:11,956 --> 00:39:15,876
Speaker 1: for people like me to object strongly when we do

612
00:39:15,916 --> 00:39:19,996
Speaker 1: not like the interpretation or spin the teachers are offering.

613
00:39:20,596 --> 00:39:24,156
Speaker 1: It poses a deep problem for our conception of democracy.

614
00:39:24,836 --> 00:39:27,436
Speaker 1: We don't have a ministry of education in the United

615
00:39:27,476 --> 00:39:30,636
Speaker 1: States that sets a national curriculum and says what is

616
00:39:30,716 --> 00:39:33,556
Speaker 1: true and what is not. And when I hear state

617
00:39:33,636 --> 00:39:36,556
Speaker 1: legislature is doing things like outlying the teaching of critical

618
00:39:36,636 --> 00:39:39,756
Speaker 1: race theory, what upsets me is not that I think

619
00:39:39,756 --> 00:39:42,836
Speaker 1: critical race theory is true or not true. What upsets

620
00:39:42,836 --> 00:39:45,836
Speaker 1: me is the very idea that a state legislature would

621
00:39:45,876 --> 00:39:49,476
Speaker 1: be purporting to insist on knowing that some beliefs or

622
00:39:49,516 --> 00:39:55,236
Speaker 1: ideas or values ought not be taught in school. Katie

623
00:39:55,236 --> 00:39:57,916
Speaker 1: and I didn't solve this problem today, and I don't

624
00:39:57,916 --> 00:40:00,836
Speaker 1: think we're going to anytime soon. But I do think

625
00:40:00,876 --> 00:40:05,156
Speaker 1: that Katie's fascinating and important book drives us to think

626
00:40:05,276 --> 00:40:10,316
Speaker 1: harder about these deeper structural problems that lie behind the

627
00:40:10,356 --> 00:40:14,116
Speaker 1: effort to get the facts about climate change taught in

628
00:40:14,196 --> 00:40:17,516
Speaker 1: our schools. Until the next time I speak to you

629
00:40:17,636 --> 00:40:22,356
Speaker 1: here on deep background breathe, deep think, deep thoughts, and

630
00:40:22,716 --> 00:40:25,276
Speaker 1: at least when you're not thinking about climate change, try

631
00:40:25,316 --> 00:40:29,516
Speaker 1: to have a little fun. If you're a regular listener,

632
00:40:29,716 --> 00:40:32,956
Speaker 1: you know I love communicating with you here on Deep Background.

633
00:40:33,556 --> 00:40:36,516
Speaker 1: I also really want that communication to run both ways.

634
00:40:37,036 --> 00:40:38,756
Speaker 1: I want to know what you think are the most

635
00:40:38,756 --> 00:40:41,956
Speaker 1: important stories of the moment, and what kinds of guests

636
00:40:42,036 --> 00:40:44,996
Speaker 1: you think you would be useful to hear from. More So,

637
00:40:45,076 --> 00:40:48,556
Speaker 1: I'm opening a new channel of communication. To access it,

638
00:40:48,876 --> 00:40:52,156
Speaker 1: just go to my website Noa Dashfelman dot com. You

639
00:40:52,196 --> 00:40:55,076
Speaker 1: can sign up from my newsletter and you can tell

640
00:40:55,076 --> 00:40:58,356
Speaker 1: me exactly what's on your mind, something that would be

641
00:40:58,396 --> 00:41:01,916
Speaker 1: really valuable to me and I hope to you too.

642
00:41:03,396 --> 00:41:06,516
Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our

643
00:41:06,556 --> 00:41:09,836
Speaker 1: producer is mo La Board, our engineer is Ben Holliday,

644
00:41:10,036 --> 00:41:14,116
Speaker 1: and our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from

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Speaker 1: noahm Osband. Theme music by Luis Gara at Pushkin. Thanks

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Speaker 1: to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia Chencott, Heather Faine, Carlie mcgliori,

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Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find

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Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I also write

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Speaker 1: a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at

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Speaker 1: bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate

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00:41:38,396 --> 00:41:43,076
Speaker 1: of podcasts, go to bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and

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Speaker 1: if you liked what you've heard today, please write a

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Speaker 1: review or tell a friend. This is deep background