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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds and truckers are now threatening Rod DeSantis

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Speaker 1: with a Florida boycott over his migrant crackdown. We have

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Speaker 1: such a fascinating show today. Congressman Colin Alred, who is

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Speaker 1: running to unseat the fish Mike Weaver of the Senate

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Speaker 1: Ted Cruz, tells us why he thinks he can make

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Speaker 1: that happen. Then we'll talk to law professor and historian

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Speaker 1: Mary Ziegler about the latest in reproductive rights.

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Speaker 2: But first we have former New York.

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Speaker 1: City mayoral candidate and president of the Leadership Conference on

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Speaker 1: Civil and Human Rights, Mayle Wiley.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics. Maya Wiley.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Molly. I'm so excited to be with you.

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Speaker 2: I am so excited to be with you. Okay, So

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Speaker 2: first I want to.

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Speaker 1: Talk about civil rights and what you're doing in the

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Speaker 1: civil rights space. I want you to tell us about

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Speaker 1: this project that you lead. Because we both come from

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Speaker 1: families with law history is of working and civil rights.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my grandfather, your father, So talk to us.

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Speaker 3: Let's just start with the fact that we live in

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Speaker 3: a country that democracy only became a full and true

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Speaker 3: democracy because of the struggle for civil and human rights.

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Speaker 3: And that's everything obviously from the right to vote for women,

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Speaker 3: for people of color, but also all the things that

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Speaker 3: were always intended to flow from that. And we know

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Speaker 3: we're in a context. I don't have to tell anyone

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Speaker 3: what happened on January sixth. I don't have to tell

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Speaker 3: anyone that we've become a post fact society. I don't

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Speaker 3: have to tell anyone that we live in a politics

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Speaker 3: of division and with rising hate at levels I just

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Speaker 3: have not seen in my lifetime. And we even just

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Speaker 3: put out a report at the Leadership Conference for Civil

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Speaker 3: and Human Rights, which is the nation's oldest and largest

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Speaker 3: civil rights coalition, about how every single election cycle that

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Speaker 3: rises so we all know this democracy is not a promise.

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Speaker 3: Democracy is something that we all have to work for,

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Speaker 3: fight for, and protect. And that was always the core

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Speaker 3: of the civil rights movement. It's always the core of

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Speaker 3: my parents' work. It was always something that was both

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Speaker 3: about getting America to live up to its ideals and

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Speaker 3: make sure that everyone had everything they needed and that

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Speaker 3: we had a country where we were able to identify

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Speaker 3: problems and solve them and do it together. And that

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Speaker 3: means a cross race, across class, a cross gender, but

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Speaker 3: also allowing people to be who they are, and we

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Speaker 3: know that's under threat. Whether you're LGPTQ, that's under threat.

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Speaker 3: If you're a woman who doesn't want to be forced

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Speaker 3: to bear children, that's under threat. If you just want

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Speaker 3: to show up at the polls and vote lawfully, that's true.

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Speaker 3: If you've paid your debt to society and want to

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Speaker 3: vote as a citizen while you have a passport, but

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Speaker 3: yet there are too many places that say you can't

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Speaker 3: vote or make it difficult for you. So you know,

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Speaker 3: a big part of you know what I'm just so

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Speaker 3: privileged to be a part of is as president and

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Speaker 3: CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights,

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Speaker 3: is essentially over two hundred and thirty national organizations. That

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Speaker 3: is everything that this country is and must be. And

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Speaker 3: it looks like this country across religion, across race, across

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Speaker 3: gender identity, across sector. We've got many of the large unions,

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Speaker 3: including our educators, including our public servants, so many of

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Speaker 3: our workers. So I'm just saying that to say, this

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Speaker 3: is America, this is who we are, and this is

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Speaker 3: what we're fighting for.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about that sort of historical

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Speaker 1: movement of civil rights for a minute, and if you

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Speaker 1: could just talk us through a little bit of how

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Speaker 1: that happened, because I think you know, not of all

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Speaker 1: of our listeners know this.

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Speaker 3: No, it's true, and certainly some of our biggest and

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Speaker 3: largest victories came in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 3: with everything from the litigation that brought us Brown versus

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Speaker 3: Board of Education in nineteen fifty four that said we

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Speaker 3: couldn't have segregated schools anymore, to the Montgomery bus boycott

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Speaker 3: in fifty eight where Martin Luther King and other leaders

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Speaker 3: fought to make sure that black people were treated like

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Speaker 3: full citizens when they were using public services like city buses.

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Speaker 3: But you know what we miss is the civil rights

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Speaker 3: struggle in this country started over slavery, and to end it,

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Speaker 3: the civil rights history in this country was black women

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Speaker 3: who were participating the suffragette movement.

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Speaker 2: Who ended up getting really screwed.

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Speaker 3: Correct, and it has been a centuries long fight. The

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Speaker 3: reason so important to say that is because it was

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Speaker 3: really hundreds of years of fights that led to what

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Speaker 3: we accomplished in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties when

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Speaker 3: we finally had a Supreme co Court that said, Okay,

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Speaker 3: we're actually going to pay attention to the principles and

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Speaker 3: values of the US Constitution. We're actually going to look

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Speaker 3: at the Civil War amendments that said every citizen has

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Speaker 3: a right to vote, that we have to have equal

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Speaker 3: protection under the laws which were passed to protect newly

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Speaker 3: freed people who had been enslaved and protect the rights

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Speaker 3: of free black people, because not everybody wasn't slaved, most were,

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Speaker 3: but all of that is to say it was never enforced.

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Speaker 3: So we finally had a Supreme Court that was going

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Speaker 3: to force those civil rights amendments, and we finally also

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Speaker 3: we had a movement where black and particularly blacks with

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Speaker 3: Jewish allies really came together. The Leadership Conference founded in

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifty was founded by Roy Wilkins, who headed the NAACP, A,

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Speaker 3: Philip Randolph incredibly important union leader as head of the

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Speaker 3: Brotherhood of Sleeping car Porters, largest black union, and Arnie

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Speaker 3: Aronson was one of the most important civic leaders in

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Speaker 3: the Jewish community. That was such an important history and

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Speaker 3: since then fought for the Civil Rights Act in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty four, Voting Rights Act with nineteen sixty five, but

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Speaker 3: also the Americans with Disabilities Act. We're the disabilities community.

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Speaker 3: Were people with disabilities getting treated as we should, everyone

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Speaker 3: having a right to participate in society, everyone having something

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Speaker 3: to offer, and that we've also you know, immigration rights.

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Speaker 3: If it weren't for civil rights movement, there was a

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Speaker 3: time when you had to be white to gain legal

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Speaker 3: access to enter the country. So all of these things

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Speaker 3: are what the Coalition represents. Because the Coalition represents women's

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Speaker 3: rights groups. Where abortion is a civil right, we need

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Speaker 3: to remember that right.

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Speaker 2: And we had it for fifty years.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we watched it being eroded over those fifty years,

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Speaker 3: and it was largely we as we see the fight

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Speaker 3: for the abortion pill, which is such a critical fight

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Speaker 3: because that's a fight about science and access to decision

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Speaker 3: making science, proven medical treatments right.

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Speaker 1: Right open the door to overturning all sorts of FDA

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Speaker 1: approvals for drugs that have been approved for years and years.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, so it's always been about everyone. But we've also

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Speaker 3: recognized that you know, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: the people harmed the most when we refuse to protect

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Speaker 3: our rights are people of color, and it harms everyone.

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Speaker 3: But ground zero always becomes communities of color.

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Speaker 1: You and I have a very similar background in the

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Speaker 1: fact that we come from this world of Jews and

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Speaker 1: Blacks working together to achieve civil.

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Speaker 3: Rights, freedom, satyrs, yep.

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Speaker 1: And so I wonder, like, one of the things that's

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Speaker 1: really upset me recently, but it was one of the

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Speaker 1: tenets of trump Ism was to try to get Jews

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Speaker 1: to fight with blacks. And you see that when they

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Speaker 1: get into Israel and they want to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: Rashida to leab is against Israel. I mean, one of

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Speaker 1: my proudest moments was sitting at a table with Ilhan

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Speaker 1: Omar and her saying to me, like, you have my back,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, because we want the same things, right,

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Speaker 1: we want freedom for oppressed people. There is no world

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Speaker 1: in which the Nazis come for the Jews and not

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Speaker 1: the Blocks.

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Speaker 3: This is such an important point, Molly, and I'm so

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Speaker 3: glad you're raising it badly true. Is that the common

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Speaker 3: enemy of any group, any of us, whether it's a

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Speaker 3: Chinese immigrant or an Orthodox Jew, or a black person

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Speaker 3: walking down the street or a Mexican citizen in al

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Speaker 3: Pepiso is white supremacist, Neo nazis, white Ethno extremists. Right,

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Speaker 3: we have all kinds of names that cross these categories.

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Speaker 3: But at the center of so much of this ideology

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Speaker 3: is white masculine Christian identity that says everyone else shouldn't

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Speaker 3: be here, doesn't belong and is a threat, and that

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Speaker 3: weaponizes that as division that divides us against the very

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Speaker 3: things we all want, which is to be able to

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Speaker 3: feed our families, which is to be able to afford housing,

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Speaker 3: which will be treated decently on a job, and be

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Speaker 3: able to get a job, to know we have a

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Speaker 3: voice in this country and can decide who leads us collectively,

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Speaker 3: Like these are all things we share as values. It

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Speaker 3: is the politicians, and I do think it's important to

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Speaker 3: call this out because there are politicians actively intentionally driving

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Speaker 3: hate and wedges between us. Frankly, the organized hate groups

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Speaker 3: are taking full advantage. We just put out a report

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Speaker 3: I hope everyone will look at and it's called Cause

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Speaker 3: for Concern. It's at www dot civil Rights dot org

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Speaker 3: and we're just looking at FBI data. But what it

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Speaker 3: shows us is what we've all seen, which is we

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Speaker 3: have an unprecedented rise in hate crimes. It is unprecedently

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Speaker 3: anti semitic. It remains true that the largest number of

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Speaker 3: hate crimes are against black people. The incredible rise against

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Speaker 3: LGBTQ communities, it's just insane. It's all of us. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: we've had a long concern, especially through COVID about anti

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Speaker 3: Asian violence. So I sail that, and of course anti

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Speaker 3: immigrant violence. I sail that because it's also true it

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Speaker 3: rises in election cycles, right, and the disinformation.

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Speaker 1: When you have someone whose whole thing is is the

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Speaker 1: hatred of the other.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Right now, we're in an interesting point in collective bargaining.

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Speaker 1: We have the Writers Guild, which is one of the

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Speaker 1: very few successful unions for now for creative people get pensions,

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Speaker 1: people get healthcare. I mean, it really is a good

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Speaker 1: union versus like I mean, I come from, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the Author's Guild, which was like not, I mean, I've heard,

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Speaker 1: you know people saying that they may keep this going

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Speaker 1: until January.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that's under attack this country, that's

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Speaker 3: in this country that's fundamental to democracy is the right

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Speaker 3: to come together as workers, collectivize the voice and demand

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Speaker 3: fair employment conditions and the ability to care for one's

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Speaker 3: self and one's family. That's what unionism is. It's people

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Speaker 3: coming together against otherwise. What can be a very powerful

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Speaker 3: employer who can set all the rules if people workers

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Speaker 3: can't come together. So I see this as an incredibly

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Speaker 3: important fight. As I said, we have been founded by union,

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Speaker 3: we are pro union. In fact, our own staff is

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Speaker 3: unionizing and we're excited about it. We think it's a

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Speaker 3: great thing that our staff is unionizing. We welcome it.

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Speaker 3: We see it as something that's going to benefit our

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Speaker 3: ability to be better. And so I say all that

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Speaker 3: to say I think this is an incredibly important fight.

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Speaker 3: I think it's painful for all of us who want

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Speaker 3: our show you right, and we want those creatives because

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Speaker 3: they bring so much to our lives. And I am

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Speaker 3: personally sad about some of the shows I may not

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Speaker 3: be able to see for a while. But the important

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Speaker 3: thing is we can't have any of those wonderful things

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Speaker 3: in our lives if people can't take care of themselves

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Speaker 3: while they're doing it for us. So, you know, I

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Speaker 3: think it's important for all of us to stay union strong,

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Speaker 3: to stand with workers and recognize that it benefits all

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Speaker 3: of us when we raise the standard of living. And

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Speaker 3: that's what unions have always done, is made sure people

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Speaker 3: get healthcare. It's made sure people have a rational work week.

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Speaker 3: We wouldn't have weekends if it weren't for unions, y'all.

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Speaker 3: So thank unions even if you don't have one, and

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Speaker 3: demand one if you don't.

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Speaker 1: One of the narratives we're seeing in the city that

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Speaker 1: you should be mayor of iss and crime is like

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Speaker 1: this thing that people now say as a way to

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Speaker 1: get money for the police. Police have a very strong union.

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Speaker 1: They probably have the best union of any of us.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, they certainly weren't it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's certainly crime in New York as or

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Speaker 1: there are everywhere. You know. It doesn't get worse during

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Speaker 1: Republican election cycles. It's just that we hear about it

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Speaker 1: more because in your post is actually a very powerful

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Speaker 1: paper in a weird way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we have to know and understand we

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Speaker 3: can walk and chew gum. We're actually quite good at

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Speaker 3: that as New Yorkers, as Americans, we can walk in

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Speaker 3: chew gum. And the walking thoughing gum here is both

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Speaker 3: understanding that there's a very real experience that some people

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Speaker 3: are experiencing around crime and safety. And it's important to

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Speaker 3: say that because we know we have people who are

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Speaker 3: mentally ill who need support and help, need supportive housing.

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Speaker 3: Some of that fear that it is coming from the

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Speaker 3: fact that there are people need help who are not

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Speaker 3: getting it. It's also true that if you're you know,

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Speaker 3: in certain communities, gun violence is very high and murder

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Speaker 3: rates are too high. The thing is they're highly highly concentrated.

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Speaker 3: But you're right that the perception is both one. If

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Speaker 3: you're in one of those communities, it's not perception, it's

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Speaker 3: a reality, and we have to say that and acknowledge that.

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Speaker 3: And you know, we have black folks who own homes

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Speaker 3: in the city. We've Latinos who owned fomes. People are

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Speaker 3: Asian with people or white own homes, have experiences, and

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Speaker 3: we need to say, yes, we know. So it's not

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Speaker 3: to negate the fact that these are experiences that can

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Speaker 3: be real for people and are it's to say that one,

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Speaker 3: we're still in the best shape we've been in for

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Speaker 3: a very long time. This is your point. I think

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Speaker 3: about driving perception that things are out of control, when

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Speaker 3: in fact, if you look over thirty years, we're so

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Speaker 3: crime is still down seventy percent from what it was

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Speaker 3: thirty years ago, And in fact, it depends on what

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Speaker 3: crime categories we're looking at. But you know, as I said,

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Speaker 3: you know, the real question is we all want to

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Speaker 3: be safe. Everybody wants to be safe, and that means

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Speaker 3: doing everything we can to ensure they never had a

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Speaker 3: problem in the first place. And one of the things

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Speaker 3: I think that we have to be willing to say

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Speaker 3: to one another is, you know, how do we recognize

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Speaker 3: that if we get a kid a job, that kid

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Speaker 3: is much less likely to ever get in trouble. How

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Speaker 3: do we recognize if we have you know, if we

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Speaker 3: think about Jordan Neely, the black man killed in a

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Speaker 3: choke hold by three people on a subway, three white

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Speaker 3: men and one in particular, putting him the choke hold

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Speaker 3: held there for fifteen minutes because he was yelling that

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Speaker 3: he was hungry, that he was thirsty, and he was

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Speaker 3: tired and ready to die. He was homeless. All those

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Speaker 3: things have solutions, And some of the insecurities that people

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Speaker 3: are feeling is because we're not putting our resources, our energy,

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Speaker 3: and our time in things we know work. There was

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Speaker 3: a man on that subway car, formerly homeless in fact,

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Speaker 3: describing himself as second generation homeless, lived on the streets,

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Speaker 3: he was in supportive housing, and he understood exactly what

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Speaker 3: was happening. He's traumatized now he's talked about it publicly.

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Speaker 3: But imagine the difference if we had done for Jordan

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Speaker 3: Neely what we fortunately were able to do for the

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Speaker 3: witness to that killing, we wouldn't have the situation to

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Speaker 3: begin with. And we need to make sure that we're

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Speaker 3: being honest with ourselves about where we can put our resources.

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Speaker 3: That means no one feels the fear in the first.

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Speaker 1: Place, right, And I think that's a really good point.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that Adams is doing, I

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Speaker 1: actually think that he sort of wants to have it

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Speaker 1: both ways, right. He wants these Republicans to like him

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Speaker 1: because they liked him early on for whatever reason, and

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Speaker 1: he wants them to think of him as a sort

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Speaker 1: of cop democrat, whatever that looks like. And so some

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Speaker 1: of the stuff he's doing is like bussing immigrants.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what's your take on that.

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Speaker 3: I'm repeating something I said during the primary, but was

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Speaker 3: just pointing to it as a matter of fact. Is

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Speaker 3: you know Eric Adams once said that the best mayor

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Speaker 3: of New York City as crime fighter was Rudy Giuliani.

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Speaker 3: That should have been in tow not David Dinkin. So

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Speaker 3: I say that, and the day after the primary, Eric

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Speaker 3: Adams had dinner with Bo Diedel. Eric Adams has always

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Speaker 3: been someone who both has has both these things are true. Again,

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Speaker 3: who's been He has been active in calling for police reform.

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Speaker 3: He has also been active in protecting the prerogatives of

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Speaker 3: law enforcement. And I think both those things are true.

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Speaker 3: And that's a complicated thing. I think for a lot

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Speaker 3: of people in New York is to know that both

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Speaker 3: those things are true. And the contradiction for me in

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Speaker 3: this has nothing to do with whether you're a Democrat

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Speaker 3: or a Republican conservative or a liberal. It's that we

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Speaker 3: allow teachers to do whatever the heck they want a classroom.

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Speaker 3: In fact, some teachers are complaining that they're not able

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Speaker 3: to teach because we've so over regulated them. Whenever our

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Speaker 3: school system is not producing the testing outcomes we want,

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Speaker 3: then the talks immediately go to cutting the budget of

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Speaker 3: the Department of Education. The talk immediately goes to wasting money.

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Speaker 3: We never have that conversation about the police department, despite

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Speaker 3: the fact that we have many fewer accountability mechanisms over

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Speaker 3: the police department, very little transparency about what they're doing

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Speaker 3: other than crime rates. Crime rates don't tell us what

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Speaker 3: they're doing with their budget. Crime rates don't tell us

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Speaker 3: how they're handling internal police discipline. They have a risk

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Speaker 3: management system inside the police department that's totally opaque to

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Speaker 3: black box. I can say that having done civilian oversight,

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Speaker 3: we couldn't get them to share data with the Civilian

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Speaker 3: Oversite Board. I shared the Civilian Complaint Review Board to say,

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Speaker 3: let's go bear notes and let's see if we can

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Speaker 3: improve the risk assessment system so we can catch the

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Speaker 3: folks who need to be course corrected before they hurt

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Speaker 3: somebody or to somebody. And this we got refusal. So

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Speaker 3: I'm saying that's to say the double standard here where

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Speaker 3: other public servants who are supposed to serve the public

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Speaker 3: get scrutiny and if they don't perform, they get budget cuts.

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Speaker 3: I'm not supporting budget cuts for schools. I'm just saying

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Speaker 3: the inconsistency, the contradiction means you're not actually focused on

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Speaker 3: public safety and crime prevention. You're focused on prerogatives for

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Speaker 3: police officers because you think we're safer if they can

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Speaker 3: do what they want. And that has never been a

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Speaker 3: democratic value or principle. I mean that by small democratic,

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Speaker 3: the small d that should be a nonpartisan position.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of a brilliant thing the police have done,

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Speaker 1: which is they've said, any criticism means you love crime.

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Speaker 3: Right, That's exactly the problem it means. And this is

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Speaker 3: the other thing that's important to say, because I've talked

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Speaker 3: to a lot of rank and file police officers in

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Speaker 3: my day. A lot of them agree with prevention and reform,

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Speaker 3: but they don't have a voice to express it, and

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Speaker 3: it's dangerous for them to express it.

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Speaker 2: Right. Well, that's a fundamental thing. My Wiley. Thank you,

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Speaker 2: thank you, thank.

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Speaker 3: You, thank you, thank you, Molly, I love you.

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Speaker 1: Congressman Colin alright represents Texas's thirty second district.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to fast Politics, Colin.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: You are in the.

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Speaker 1: Great state of Texas and you are running for United

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Speaker 1: States Senate against the worst person in the entire world.

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Speaker 4: Again. Well, I'm running inst Ted Cruz, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I think the Texans can't afford six more years of

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Speaker 4: this guy, it's personal for me. I'm a fourth generation Texan.

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Speaker 4: My boys are fifth generation Texans. Yeah, I don't think

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Speaker 4: we have to be embarrassed virus Senator, and I think

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Speaker 4: it's time for us to get a new one.

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Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about why you are

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Speaker 1: the right candidate for this.

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Speaker 4: You know, my story is one of relying on my community, Molly.

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Speaker 4: You know, I was born and raised in Dallas by

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Speaker 4: a single mother and was a public school teacher. Then

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Speaker 4: you know, I think sometimes when you grow up having

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Speaker 4: to rely on community organizations like the YMCA, where I

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Speaker 4: spent a ton of time, you know, public schools, people's

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Speaker 4: generosity at times, and I think you get a different

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Speaker 4: and maybe deeper appreciation sometimes for community. For us here

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Speaker 4: in Texas, we know that it's going to be a

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Speaker 4: tough fight to beat ted Cruz and to give us

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Speaker 4: I think, more accurate representation closer to who we are.

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Speaker 4: But you know, my life has been a story taken

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Speaker 4: on those kinds of fights. I mean, just from basically

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Speaker 4: making it to the point that I have in the

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Speaker 4: NFL law school now, but also I mean who I

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Speaker 4: got into Congress is by winning a really tough fight

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Speaker 4: you know, beating a twenty two year incumbent who was

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Speaker 4: the chairman of the Rules Committee, who had been unopposed

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Speaker 4: the election before. And so I think we know how

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Speaker 4: to do it. I think we have the experience to

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Speaker 4: do it. And what we've done in our campaigns in

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Speaker 4: the past has been able to bring together kind of

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Speaker 4: diverse coalitions that I think really reflect who we are

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Speaker 4: in my community. And I think we can spread that

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Speaker 4: out to the entire state.

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Speaker 1: So I want to go back in twenty eighteen and better.

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Speaker 1: O'Rourke really did Lewis to Ted Cruz by three percentage points,

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Speaker 1: which is not very much. So this is not even

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Speaker 1: though we think of Texas a very red stay, it's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily really.

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Speaker 2: True, is it.

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Speaker 4: No, it's not. And I think that I've been a

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Speaker 4: little bit frustrated at times when people are not using

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Speaker 4: actual data and they're basing kind of their thoughts on

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Speaker 4: where Texas is politically. You were a state that Joe

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Speaker 4: Biden lost by five points, as you said, Ted Cruz

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Speaker 4: was narrowly re elected. I think it was two point

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Speaker 4: six or something like that in twenty eighteen, and we're

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Speaker 4: save with the enormous room for growth in terms of,

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Speaker 4: you know, getting folks out to vote, because we've had

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Speaker 4: one of the lowest voter turnouts in the country every election,

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Speaker 4: you know, for some time now, so we have high potential,

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Speaker 4: you know, a ton of folks who we need to

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Speaker 4: give it engaged in our democracy. We've also already had

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Speaker 4: a series of close elections, and so you know, I

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Speaker 4: think that all plays into it. But it's also just

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Speaker 4: true that tech Cruise is uniquely unpopular, and that he

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Speaker 4: has made himself more unpopular by going to ken Kun

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Speaker 4: during our state wide freeze, by being sort of one

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Speaker 4: of the architects of the insurrection on January sixth. Those

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Speaker 4: things we know have not helped him. And so this

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Speaker 4: is not a I've seen, you know, the kind of

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Speaker 4: references a long shot. It's a tough race. It's not

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Speaker 4: a long shot.

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Speaker 1: It's actually Democrats' best pick up opportunity this cycle.

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Speaker 4: That's what cool.

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Speaker 1: I think about the candidate who ran against Lauren Beaupert,

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Speaker 1: Adam Fresh, who we had on this podcast, and everyone

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Speaker 1: said I was crazy, and he lost by seven hundred votes.

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Speaker 1: So imagine what he could have done had there not

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Speaker 1: been such headwinds. So I want to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about what it looks like. I mean, first I wanted

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Speaker 1: you to tell us a little bit about your background, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, how you can energize Texans. You've been in

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Speaker 1: Congress three terms. You also played football, right, Yeah, that's right.

436
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 4: I like to joke that I'd taken the normal rite

437
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 4: to Congress. So I was raised by sing a mother,

438
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 4: play in the NFL, and went to law school and

439
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 4: became a civil rights lawyer. But yeah, you know my

440
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 4: story is, I said, starts in Dallas. My mom taught

441
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 4: in Dallas public schools, and I went to Dallas pub

442
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 4: with schools and was fortunate enough to get a scholarship

443
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 4: to Baylor. Didn't think I was going to get a

444
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 4: chance to play in the NFL. Was all ready to

445
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 4: go to law school and take them asset all that

446
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,959
Speaker 4: kind of stuff, and was basically convinced that was going

447
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 4: to have a chance to play by agents who kept

448
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 4: bothering me. Decided to sort of detour from law school

449
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 4: and just see what the whole NFL thing was about.

450
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 4: Five years later, was still playing and had it not

451
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 4: been for a neck injury in my fifth game of

452
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 4: my fifth year in Dallas against the Cowboys as fake

453
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 4: kind of turned out. I probably would have kept playing

454
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 4: for a number of years more, but that led me

455
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 4: to go to law school. I got into voting rights work.

456
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 4: I worked in the Obama administration as a come home

457
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 4: and run for Congress in twenty eighteen because I thought

458
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 4: that the community that I was born and raised in

459
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 4: was not being reflected by the congressman that we had

460
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 4: at the time. He wasn't receptive to who we were.

461
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 4: They didn't represent who we were. And I feel similarly

462
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 4: about Ted Kruz.

463
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, with the state like Texas, and we see this

464
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: with these approval numbers for Biden. You don't need to

465
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 1: convince these Republicans, these maga Republicans, to vote for you.

466
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: You need to do what Donald Trump did, which is

467
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: get people who don't vote to mat to vote right.

468
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: I mean, that's ultimately how you win.

469
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 4: Well, the way we've done it, Molly, in my congressional

470
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 4: races is we've tried to do both. We've tried to,

471
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 4: you know, get folks who maybe have voted for George W.

472
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 4: Bush in the past or at Romney to feel comfortable

473
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 4: that they could support me. And we've also tried to

474
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 4: expand the electorate. You know, by targeting folks and spending

475
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 4: time honestly talking to voters who don't always get talked to.

476
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 4: And there we've had a in Texas, we've that's relatively

477
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 4: easy to do because we've not had a tradition in

478
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 4: recent years of really on the ground campaigning, of getting

479
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 4: communities engaged through constant interaction, door to door work of course,

480
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 4: but also you know, organizations in those communities when you

481
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 4: when you reach the level of kind of bottoming out

482
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 4: of turnout that we are in. Uh, it's it's it's

483
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 4: a number of things all at once. It's our voting

484
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 4: laws that you make it very difficult to vote. I

485
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 4: know that as a voting its attorney, but it's also

486
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 4: you know, sort of almost apathy that creeps in. And

487
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 4: then there's also at times a lack of campaigns who've

488
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 4: tried to counter that. We need to do both because

489
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 4: I think that's what's best for our state. We need

490
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 4: to get more people involved voting.

491
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 5: We just do.

492
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 4: I mean, what's happening right now for us politically, it's

493
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 4: not reflective no matter what we are, whether it's purple state, whatever,

494
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 4: it's not reflective of taxes itself. So we need to

495
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 4: have it be more reflective of that. But there are

496
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 4: a lot of folks out there in my experience, particularly

497
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 4: in recent years, who were Republicans or maybe still consider

498
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 4: themselves Republicans, who are looking for a political home, and

499
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 4: I've often been able to appeal to them as well.

500
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a really good point. And you'll also

501
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: register voters.

502
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 4: Well, we have to, and we're growing so rapidly. We

503
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 4: have folks moving into state and we need to get

504
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 4: you know, plugged in. We have every day an eighteen

505
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 4: year old turns eligible in Texas up. We need to

506
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 4: get plugged in. So we have to grow that. But

507
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 4: we have a large number of registered voters are currently

508
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 4: not voting as well. I mean I think it was

509
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 4: around nine and a half million in the last election.

510
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 4: That's more than many states have voters period.

511
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, it's such a humongous state and

512
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 1: it's so interesting.

513
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 2: I want to ask you.

514
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: One of the other things that I've been struck by

515
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: with Ted Cruz is that he is quite busy with

516
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 1: the podcast. Is one of your competitors, So yeah, we

517
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 1: don't have the same audience, let me tell you, But

518
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: but I do, you know, I do a podcast three

519
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: days a week.

520
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 2: He does a podcast three days a week. It's quite

521
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: a lot of work.

522
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I write a column, but I don't also

523
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: pretend to be United States senator.

524
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, he represents thirty million Texans, you know in my district.

525
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 4: Of course, with my family commitments that everything is well,

526
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 4: my schedule is so backed.

527
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: Mind.

528
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 4: I'm not trying, you know, it just is. I can't

529
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 4: imagine carving out time to prep, record and be a

530
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 4: part of a podcast three times a week. It's funny,

531
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 4: but it's also right. Like it's the same rationale that

532
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 4: leads you to go to Cancun when your state is

533
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 4: frozen and there are people dying of carbon monoxide poisoning

534
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 4: in their apartments because they're bringing generators inside when they're

535
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 4: breaking up their fence posts and burning their fence or warmth.

536
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 4: If you're able to do that to say, well, this

537
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 4: is a good time to go on vacation, then you

538
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 4: also have the attitude, kind of the callousness and the

539
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: arrogance that I've got some free time with I'll do

540
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 4: a podcast instead of oh, I don't know, maybe I

541
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 4: could meet with some constituents, Maybe I could get to

542
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 4: work on trying to figure something out. I mean, I

543
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 4: think the reason why I've talked about it some is

544
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 4: that I think it's indicative of his lack of seriousness

545
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 4: about this job.

546
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: One of the things I think is pretty interesting about Texas,

547
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: and this is true about Florida too, is that these

548
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: are states where you really are seeing the effects.

549
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: Of climate change in a really scary way. Can you

550
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: talk about that a little bit.

551
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 4: Well, Yeah, we've had record droughts and record rainfall, and

552
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 4: we've received more one hundred year floods and just the

553
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 4: span of a few years than care to count. We've

554
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 4: of course had, uh, you know, a state wide freeze

555
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 4: with Hurricane Harvey that was you know, dumped you know,

556
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 4: basically months worth of rainfall on Houston in the span

557
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 4: of a couple of days. That was partially made worse

558
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 4: by the fact that the Gulf of Mexico it was

559
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 4: you know, a degree or more warmer than it should be. Uh.

560
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 4: And it's absolutely true. It's impacting our agriculture, it's impacting

561
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 4: and changing you know, lives in Texas. Oftentimes, as you know,

562
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 4: some of the most vulnerable, vulnerable folks are the ones

563
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 4: who then are hit hardest by the effects of it,

564
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 4: and so when we have record droughts and record heat waves,

565
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 4: you know, it's our urban cores often that are far

566
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 4: hotter than anywhere else in the state. Sometimes some of

567
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 4: the hottest places in the country are in Dallas and

568
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 4: in Houston, you know, because we have a ton of pavement,

569
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 4: not much grainary and extremely soaring temperatures and needs to

570
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 4: be see people suffering under that. So it very much

571
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 4: is a real issue for us. Texas is an energy state.

572
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 4: We're going to continue to lead on energy, but we

573
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 4: also have a chance to lead on clean or noble

574
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 4: energy in a way that is really exciting that most

575
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 4: people don't know about Texas, that we're the number one

576
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 4: win state in the country by far, by far than

577
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 4: producing the most wind power, got a burgeoning soul or industry,

578
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 4: and you know, as we kind of move into where

579
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 4: we're going in a way that's sustainable for the planet,

580
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 4: Texas is going to continue to be an energy state.

581
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 4: We are feeling the effects of what's happening right now.

582
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: You have this background as a civil rights attorney focused

583
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: voting rights. We have a real problem in this country

584
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: when it comes to voting rights. We have a Republican

585
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: party that is very interested in making harder to vote.

586
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: We even have a.

587
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: Republican candidate musing about making the voting age twenty five.

588
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: I mean, do you see a world and again, let's

589
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: just I mean, this is not impossible. Right, Democrats went

590
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: back the House, Biden keeps the presidency, Democrats keep the

591
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: Senate or even add to it.

592
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: How do you solve that problem? I mean, we have

593
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: this very.

594
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 1: Partisan Supreme Court that seems pretty embolden and interested in

595
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: doing whatever they want to do. I mean, how do

596
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: you solve for voting rights? How do you protect?

597
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 4: Yeah? I think that you're right. We are in a

598
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 4: real crisis when it comes to the rights to vote

599
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 4: in this country. Texas unfortunately is at the top of

600
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 4: the list in terms of the worst actors in terms

601
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 4: of restricting the right to vote. I'm a student of history, though,

602
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 4: I like to remind myself that you know, twenty five

603
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 4: year old John Lewis when he's walking across the Minevette's Bridge,

604
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 4: Martin Luther King, of course, you know, the foot soldiers

605
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 4: of the civil rights movement had far fewer tools at

606
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: their disposal when they were fighting for the rights to

607
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 4: vote than we do now. They certainly didn't have a

608
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 4: congressional Black caucus that I'm a member of that you know,

609
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 4: is the largest it's ever been. They certainly didn't have

610
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 4: president at all times who like Joe Biden, who would

611
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 4: be wants to use a part of justice to defend

612
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 4: the right to vote as much as you can, and

613
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 4: so as bad as it is right now, and to

614
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 4: be honest with you, in the decade that I've been

615
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 4: involved with voting rights, we've gone backwards in that decade.

616
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 4: We're in a worse position now than we were going

617
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 4: back to Shelby County beholder the case that the Voting

618
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 4: Rights Act. We're in a much worse place, There's no

619
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 4: doubt about it. And in my opinion, we are no

620
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 4: longer able to rely on the courts to be that

621
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 4: safeguard for the right to vote. So now that it

622
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 4: has to be legislative, and that's one of the reasons

623
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 4: why I felt so strongly that if you feel that

624
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 4: the filibuster is important, I'll accept that, but we have

625
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 4: to not let the filibusters stand the way a pro

626
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 4: democracy legislation that ultimately is about the makeup of the Senate.

627
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 4: So I argued strenuously that we should have a carve

628
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 4: out for voting rights. Now, I'm not a fan in

629
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 4: the filibuster period.

630
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: But at the very least we have to secure that.

631
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 4: At the very least we should we have to be

632
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 4: able to address democracy issues, the bedrock issues, before we

633
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 4: get to dealing with having to create a super majority,

634
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 4: just the way they determine that we need to lower

635
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 4: the threshold to consider judges or appointments to the cabinet.

636
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 4: You know, they've done plenty of carve outs to the filibuster.

637
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 4: We should have one for voting rights. And so I

638
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 4: think there is a scenario where Democrats are in control

639
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 4: in the Congress and Joe Biden is in the wa

640
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 4: White House where we could pass strong, proactive voting rights

641
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 4: legislation that protects the right to vote and expands it

642
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 4: in key areas, and that should be constitutionally sound and

643
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 4: difficult to challenge even by the Supreme Court.

644
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, democratic ideas are much much more popular.

645
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: But the problem is Republicans are just better at getting elected.

646
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 4: Well, we have some structural issues, and we rely on

647
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 4: a broad coalition that often has many elements of it

648
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 4: that need their kind of first order of needs met

649
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 4: in order to even consider voting. You know, when you're

650
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 4: having a difficult time just getting by, you know, being

651
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 4: involved in your democracy is harder. It just is. And

652
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 4: of course you know the structure of the Senate, and

653
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 4: I think the Supreme Court's almost criminal refusal to do

654
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 4: anything about jerrymandering has left us in a situation where

655
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 4: we can get more votes in every election, and of

656
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 4: course you know the electoral college as well, we can

657
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 4: get more votes in every election, but still be in

658
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 4: a situation where we're not able to, you know, wield power.

659
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 4: And I think that that makes particularly young people that

660
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 4: I come across, and makes them cynical about politics, about

661
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 4: what they can change. But my message to them, you know,

662
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 4: is that if you're not at the table, you're gonna

663
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 4: be on the menu. There's gonna be laws that are

664
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 4: going to be You're gonna have to deal with the

665
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 4: laws that are passed a lot longer than you know,

666
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 4: so some of the older folks in DC and in

667
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 4: your state capitals. So we need you to be engaged.

668
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 4: The cavalry is not coming. You are the cavalry. We

669
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 4: need you, and you know that's that's sort of The

670
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 4: idea here is that we can't allow those structural difficulties

671
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 4: to stop us.

672
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really good point, Colin. Thank you so

673
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 1: much for joining us. This is really interesting. Yeah, I

674
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: hope you'll come back.

675
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 4: Thanks, Mollie, I appreciate you having me on and you

676
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 4: knowing where Texas really is.

677
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: Hi, it's Mollie, and I am.

678
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: Wildly excited that for the first time, Fast Politics, the

679
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: show you're listening to right now, is going to have

680
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: merch for sale over at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com.

681
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 2: You can now buy shirts.

682
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: Hats, hoodies, and toe bags with our incredible designs.

683
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 2: We've heard your cries to spread the word.

684
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: About our podcast and get a tow bag with my

685
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: adorable Leo the Rescue Puppy on it. And now you

686
00:36:54,520 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: can grab this merchandise only at shop dot Fast politicspod

687
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks for your support. Mary Ziegler is a historian,

688
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: a law professor, as well as author of Dollars for Life,

689
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: The Anti Abortion Movement.

690
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: And the Fall of the Republican Establishment.

691
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: Welcome too Fast Politics, Mary, Thanks for having me. I

692
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: often think of you when I'm writing about abortion, and

693
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: I think like, I'm curious what her take on this is.

694
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you're one of the like the legal scholars

695
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: that I think of as sort of able to capture

696
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: what's going on right now.

697
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: What is going on right now?

698
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 5: Oh boy, that's a big question. There's a lot of

699
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 5: different things that are going on right now. So I

700
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 5: mean the Comstock Act immediately comes to mind. That's the

701
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 5: sort of a resurrection of an idea of the Comstock

702
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 5: Act that's from the nineteenth century that's been front and

703
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 5: center in efforts to i think create a de facto

704
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 5: national ban.

705
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: So that's going on.

706
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: Let's just go into the Comstock Act for a minute.

707
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: The concept act was from remind me what year it was.

708
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 1: I mean it was like around prohibition, right.

709
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that it was even earlier than that.

710
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 5: Actually, so the Comstock Act was passed in eighteen seventy three.

711
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 5: To say it was vigorously enforced as kind of a euphemism,

712
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 5: I mean, the number of people who were prosecuted for

713
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 5: things that just it seems kind of outrageous, Like, for example,

714
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 5: there were people who would publish news stories about women

715
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 5: who died in illegal abortions, so no one was even

716
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 5: having an abortion, but prosecutors would say, look, if women

717
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 5: even know abortion exists, albeit when she were dying from it,

718
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 5: they're going to go out there and get abortions. So

719
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 5: that's obscene, and this person needs to go to prison

720
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 5: for five years. So it was it was extremely broad

721
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 5: in its interpretation in the early years, but that interpretation

722
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 5: hasn't really been a thing since the nineteen thirties. And

723
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 5: when courts in the thirties looked at the law, they

724
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 5: thought the earlier prosecutions had it all wrong. So we're

725
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 5: talking about reviving an interpretation of a statute that was

726
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 5: probably never right in the first place, but reflected ideas

727
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 5: of sexual.

728
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: Purity from like a time when women couldn't vote. That's

729
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: kind of where we're at.

730
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a really good explanation of it. Thank you.

731
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: So that is what conservatives want to use to prevent

732
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: people sending things in the map.

733
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, basically, So conservatives now are saying, hey, you know what,

734
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 5: it turns out, we never appealed the Comstock Act, and

735
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 5: the Comstock Act is federal law, so preempts, you know,

736
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 5: state laws. So if you live in a state that

737
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 5: protects abortion and its state constitution, conservatives are saying, well,

738
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 5: that's too bad. Because Comstock trumps that, and they're interpreting

739
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 5: it not just to apply to abortion pills, but really

740
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 5: to all abortions, because any abortion, surgical or otherwise uses

741
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:46,959
Speaker 5: something that comes.

742
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: In the mail.

743
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 5: Right. No, no, doctors are making their own surgical gloves

744
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 5: and scalpels and pills, right, They're getting them from elsewhere.

745
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 5: But they're trying to use this as a de facto band.

746
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 1: It's so crazy, But they're clever in the way that

747
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: they're cooking up stuff.

748
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure. I mean one of the things I

749
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 5: think progressives did wrong for a really long time was

750
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 5: to sort of underestimate people on the other side of

751
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 5: this issue who have been pretty smart at strategy. Even

752
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 5: if I mean, I don't think this is a great

753
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 5: argument in terms of that's not what I think the

754
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 5: Comstock Act actually means. But they know their audience, right.

755
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 5: There's a whole bunch of conservative justices on the Supreme

756
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 5: Court who describe themselves as textualists, which means they don't

757
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 5: care about precedent or history or whatever. They care only

758
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 5: about what they think the text actually says. So this

759
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 5: argument is tailor made for the people currently on the

760
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 5: Supreme Court. So you know it may work even though

761
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 5: there's lots of things wrong with it as an argument, right.

762
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing is, like, we have a

763
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 1: Supreme Court that is profoundly a product of this conservative

764
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: court movement.

765
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 3: He yeah.

766
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 5: And I think the other thing that, obviously it signals

767
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 5: is a lot of the strategies we're going to talk

768
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 5: about today are focused on the federal courts. Right, So

769
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 5: even though Justice Alito told us, you know what, the

770
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 5: courts are getting out of the abortion business. This is

771
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 5: going to be left of voters. Of course, anti worshion

772
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 5: lawyers don't want that to voters. It tends to end

773
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 5: badly for them, so they're trying various ways to get

774
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 5: questions to federal judges so federal judges can take the

775
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 5: issue away from voters.

776
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

777
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's a kind of amazing bunch

778
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,919
Speaker 1: of events. So I want to ask you, what else

779
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 1: are you seeing besides this Commstock Act.

780
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 5: Well, so we're seeing obviously we're right in the middle

781
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 5: of this challenge to the FDA's authority to have even

782
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 5: approved MiFi pristone that's continuing. So the Fifth Circuit Court

783
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 5: of Appeals on the most conservative intermediate appellate court in

784
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 5: the country. It has a hearing on the next round

785
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 5: of this next week. So we're seeing and we're seeing

786
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 5: a whole bunch of other efforts to challenge either of

787
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 5: the FDA's authority to approve MiFi pristone the way mif

788
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 5: A pristone is sold and manufactured. And we've seen states

789
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 5: trying to ban MiFi pristone, either as part of sweeping

790
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 5: bans or just specific to medication wortion bands. And we're

791
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 5: starting to see issues involving states trying to stop people

792
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 5: from traveling, or states trying to apply their laws outside

793
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 5: of state lines. In other words, you know, applying a

794
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 5: rule that saying California doctors can't prove perforied services to

795
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 5: people from Alabama, for example.

796
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: Right, And that is again really good proof that the

797
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: states rights fantasy was never real.

798
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean anyone who studied the history of

799
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 5: this is not going to be surprised by that, in

800
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 5: part because you know, the anti worshing movement has never

801
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 5: been a states rights movement. I mean that argument came

802
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 5: along later. It was for strategic purposes. I mean, just

803
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 5: by its own terms. It doesn't make sense if you

804
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 5: believe that a fetus or unborn child is a rights

805
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 5: holding person. You clearly don't think it's okay for that

806
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 5: rights holding person have no rights in California but have

807
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 5: rights in Alabama. Like, that makes absolutely no sense. So

808
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 5: that was never going to be the strategy, and I

809
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 5: think it in a way, I think this at was

810
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 5: sort of insolving our intelligence by pretending that that's what

811
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 5: this was about for anyone involved, because it never has been.

812
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that is pretty interesting. But I did

813
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 1: see yesterday there was a legislator on a red state

814
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: who's trying to get a tax deduction to count a

815
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: fetus as a dependent.

816
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

817
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 5: Absolutely, well, so this is part of this broader concern

818
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 5: for fetal personhood.

819
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 3: Right.

820
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 5: So the kind of dominant legal argument that a Worsion

821
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 5: opponents have made really since the nineteen sixties is that

822
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 5: fetus is a rights holding constitutional person. So not just

823
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 5: that a fetus is a separate biological entity, right like,

824
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 5: not part of the pregnant person, but its own thing.

825
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 5: They're also arguing that that person or thing has constitutional rights,

826
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 5: and that I think.

827
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 3: Has many ways been the endgame for the.

828
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 5: Movement legally from the beginning and now that dogs has

829
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 5: come down, we're starting to see groups make that more

830
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 5: forcefully in state legislatures. So in some states like Arizona

831
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 5: already has a personhood law that's tied up in court.

832
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 5: Georgia has a law that recognizes personhood for various purposes

833
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 5: at six weeks, and lots of other states have personhood

834
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 5: language in their worshion bands. And I think we should

835
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 5: expect to see anti worshing groups pushing this argument as

836
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 5: they think it might work.

837
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 3: I think it's their ultimate goal.

838
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 5: So I think the question really is one of timing

839
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 5: and whether they think they can succeed on this in

840
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 5: the near term or whether they think they have to wait.

841
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: Ask you about this sort of FDA approval stuff, because

842
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: one of the things that I wrote about, which I

843
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: also want to ask you about is Judge Matthew Kismerick.

844
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,959
Speaker 2: I think I said that right, you did.

845
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Amarillo, Texas judge who has you know, is

846
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 1: the go to judge when judge shopping for anti choice justices,

847
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: a Trump appointee. Of course, you know, part of that

848
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: decision to overturn the method pristone approval was this kind

849
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: of decision to sort of reject the FDA as a

850
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: governing body.

851
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: Can you talk about that? And you wrote about the

852
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,479
Speaker 2: junk science element of those two.

853
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, so the suit, that suit also involves

854
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 5: the Constock Act, just because why not you're so personally here.

855
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 5: There's also this argument essentially that the FDA never had

856
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 5: the authority to approve MiFi Priystone under what's called Subpart H,

857
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 5: which is a regulation that the FDA can use.

858
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 3: To approve drugs.

859
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 5: And the argument anti Worshion lawyers are making is that

860
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 5: one that this wasn't justified because pregnancy isn't a disease.

861
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 5: It's sort of like a normal, healthy thing.

862
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 1: You see that more and more conservatives love that, right, Yeah,

863
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 1: and this is also not a new thing.

864
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 5: I mean you can find people making that argument like

865
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 5: in the nineteen sixties. And then secondly they're arguing that

866
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 5: there was no justification for approving mifh A Priystone because

867
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,919
Speaker 5: it wasn't safer than surgical abortion. And in fact, anti

868
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 5: Worshion lawyers, then you know, kind of trot out a

869
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 5: lot of studies that their own research are sent on

870
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 5: that argue that not only as mithroprostone not safer than

871
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 5: surgical abortion. It's actually, you know, killing women and girls everywhere,

872
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 5: which is a claim they make often without any evidence

873
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 5: or with evidence that essentially was gathered by groups that

874
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 5: movement aligned. So that had been the claim. I mean

875
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 5: in Judge Chasmeric's ruling is really it's hard for me

876
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 5: to convey, like as a historian, how remarkable a document

877
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 5: that is. Explain Yeah, I mean it was more remarkable

878
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 5: in some ways than the plaintiffs briefs. Like if you

879
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 5: had sort of blindfolded someone had said one of these

880
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 5: was written by the anti Aborsian plaintiffs, and one of

881
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 5: these was written by a judge. I think you may

882
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 5: not know which one, or you may actually guess wrong.

883
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 5: And so far that hasn't worked. Again, not because I

884
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 5: think the US Supreme Court is unsympathetic to these junk

885
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 5: science claims, but because there are a lot of procedural

886
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 5: problems with this case. It's really hard for the plaintiffs

887
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 5: to explain where there was an injury that even entitled

888
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 5: them to be in court in the first place. And

889
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 5: so maybe that the Supreme Court kills this case. Not

890
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 5: because you know, there are any more sympathetic to abortion

891
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 5: rights or you know the authority of scientists and the FDN,

892
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 5: and they were a few days ago. But just because

893
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 5: you know, this is just such a messed up case

894
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 5: that even the court's conservative justices may want to see

895
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 5: these claims again, just from people who actually have standing

896
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 5: to sue.

897
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That is so interesting.

898
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: So one of my obsessions is I just wrote this

899
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: about the no fault divorces. Of course, you'll be shocked

900
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: to now that this incredibly zalidous judge had written.

901
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 2: Before he had been put on the Federal Court.

902
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: A long diatribe about how what a bad guy Ronald

903
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: Reagan was because he signed into law.

904
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 2: The first no fault divorce.

905
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: I mean, can you talk about how this play is

906
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 1: into this whole assault on women's rights.

907
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, so there's a lot of anxiety about

908
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 5: no fault divorce. I mean, this may seem like it's

909
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 5: coming out of nowhere for people.

910
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 3: This is not you know what I mean.

911
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 5: No one has talked about the no fault divorce wars.

912
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 5: There's no equivalent pland of narrative the way there was

913
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 5: a round abortion. But what people don't know is that

914
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 5: this was a source of real anxiety for social conservatives

915
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 5: going way back to the nineteen sixties and seventies, because

916
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 5: I think many social conservatives believe that the family, which

917
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 5: they define, of course as you know, heterosexual and traditional

918
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 5: in terms of the general rules that people were playing,

919
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 5: was the kind of foundation of society, and no fault divorce,

920
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 5: of course, did fundamentally change how people lived their lives,

921
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 5: and it was incredibly popular. So I think there had

922
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 5: been a real interest in changing no fault divorce laws

923
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 5: the people like Jerry Folwell and folks in the majority

924
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 5: moral majority had going way back to the seventies and

925
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 5: eight eight, but it just didn't work, in part because

926
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 5: it turned out people like no fault course, So Louisiana

927
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 5: actually experimented with this some years ago. They passed a

928
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 5: law offering an option they called covenant marriage, so essentially

929
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 5: folks could opt out of they could decide when they

930
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 5: got married, we're not going to sign up for no

931
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 5: fault divorce, so we're only going to get divorced if

932
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 5: there's fault. And while Louisiana lawmakers were sold on this

933
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 5: being something that would really appeal to people with a

934
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 5: kind of religious language and appeal to kind of these

935
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 5: patriarchal ideas. Nobody really does covenant marriagees right and right,

936
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 5: when the rubber meets the road, people don't want to

937
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 5: give up on the possibility of no fault divorce. So

938
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 5: I think this is something again where a lot of

939
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 5: people recognize not only that we're seeing something that could

940
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 5: really affect what happens to women and other people with

941
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 5: different gender identities, but also that this is something that

942
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 5: would be rejected by voters. So again something where you're

943
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 5: going to see action in courts, because if you went

944
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 5: to voters directly and said, do you want to get

945
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 5: rid of no fault worst so you get a resounding no,

946
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 5: right of course.

947
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,959
Speaker 1: I mean that is the thread with all of these. Right,

948
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: these are not popular ideas. Right, abortion has some of

949
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 1: the best pulling it's ever had now, right, I mean

950
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: crazy numbers people want abortion, they don't They want maybe

951
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: some restrictions, but ultimately you know, they don't want women

952
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: bleeding out who are having miscarriacters.

953
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: I mean, this is they've opened the door.

954
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 1: They don't want laws involved in medicine, and they don't

955
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: necessarily want that when it comes to divorce too. And

956
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,479
Speaker 1: what I'm struck by is that like the Supreme Court

957
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 1: we're seeing and I want to talk to you about this.

958
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: So Thomas, in this concurrent opinion with Dobbs, I'm like

959
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: obsessed with us now, had this line about correcting the error.

960
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: Explain to us why that should be so terrifying to

961
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: all of us.

962
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 5: I mean, one of the things Thomas is saying, essentially,

963
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 5: is that the error, for Thomas is not just row,

964
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 5: it's anything that the Court has tied to what lawyers

965
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 5: call substantive due process and what the rest of us

966
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 5: tend to think of as privacy right. So the ability

967
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 5: for same sex couples to marry, the ability for same

968
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 5: sex couples even to have sex without going to prison,

969
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 5: interracial marriage, contraception, and those are the ones Thomas lists.

970
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 5: I mean, he actually doesn't say anything about interracial marriage,

971
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 5: which you know, but the idea I think Thomas has,

972
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 5: which is absolutely I mean, I think he's right. He's saying,

973
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 5: if you listen to the logic of the Dods' opinion,

974
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 5: there is no reason why it doesn't mean that all

975
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 5: these other rights have to go too.

976
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 3: Because if you.

977
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 5: Believe that our history and tradition in this country was frozen,

978
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 5: hundreds of years ago, and that our traditions can't and

979
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 5: shouldn't change, And the only moment that matters.

980
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 3: Is eighteen sixty eight.

981
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 5: You know, it's true, right that sodomy was a crime

982
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 5: in a lot of places in eighteen sixty eight, And

983
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 5: it's true that contraception was beginning to be criminalized. Certainly

984
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 5: by eighteen seventy three with Comstock, it was criminalized, but

985
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 5: it was already being barred by some states. There's just

986
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 5: no argument that same sex couples could get married.

987
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 3: In eighteen sixty eight.

988
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 5: So if that's where our rights come from, if that's

989
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 5: how we identify them, Thomas is right that Dobbs is

990
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 5: the beginning, not the end.

991
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 3: That he's the only person.

992
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 5: I think he's consistent among the conservatives in that way,

993
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 5: which is why we should be scared.

994
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: It's pretty interesting, and I think it speaks to a

995
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: larger movement. I mean, I think this, this federalist society,

996
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, for lack of a better word, this

997
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: maga judiciary movement is heading towards a Christian country, a

998
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: Catholic country.

999
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's the fear right. I mean, I

1000
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 5: think we're kind of left. I mean, for progressives. Right.

1001
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 5: I think there's sort of two questions here. One is,

1002
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 5: you know, is there any is there any too far

1003
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 5: for this court And we don't really know the answer

1004
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 5: to that yet.

1005
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 3: I mean, there may be it too far.

1006
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 5: In the sense that people who don't have standing hank

1007
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 5: go to court, which may be the lesson of this

1008
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 5: myphipristone case. Right. But the kind of related question is,

1009
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 5: you know, what do you think of the role of

1010
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 5: the judiciary altogether, Because we're in a space where we're

1011
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 5: talking about no fault divorce or abortion, where pretty clearly

1012
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 5: voting majorities are with progressives. And you said not on everything, right,

1013
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 5: not on every abortion restriction, but kind of big picture,

1014
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 5: voters don't want criminal bands on abortion and they never have,

1015
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 5: and they don't want to undo no fault divorce. So

1016
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 5: I think this means there has to again be a

1017
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 5: serious conversation about court reform, which has just sort of died.

1018
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 5: That doesn't have to mean adding more justices to the

1019
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 5: court necessarily. I'm not sure I think that's a good idea,

1020
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 5: but I think there has to be some thinking among

1021
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 5: progressives about what it means if you can win with

1022
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,080
Speaker 5: voters on all of these issues, and yet it may not.

1023
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 3: Matter because of where the courts are going.

1024
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 1: You have this historical presidency. You know that this court

1025
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: wasn't always this size. I mean, what is your in

1026
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: your mind how you address a conservative court that will

1027
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: now be conservative? And I mean, I don't think of

1028
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 1: this as like the conservative court that passed Row, which

1029
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: was in itself a conservative court.

1030
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 2: I think of this as the conservative court.

1031
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,439
Speaker 1: That is embolden in a way that we've never seen

1032
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: justices before.

1033
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think it's certainly not in my lifetime, right,

1034
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't I think obviously in the past,

1035
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 5: I think justices knew that there were things that could

1036
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,399
Speaker 5: be done right, people would have jurisdiction stript or justices.

1037
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 3: Would be added to the court.

1038
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 5: And I don't know how to put it, but people

1039
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 5: are so used to the court having power and no

1040
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 5: accountability that it seems as if almost nothing can change that, right,

1041
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 5: I mean, Clara, it seems like every week we hear

1042
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 5: a new story about something that Clarence Thomas did that

1043
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 5: might have been unethical or potentially illegal, and yet nothing happened.

1044
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 5: And Chief Justice John Roberts doesn't even go to Congress

1045
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 5: to talk about it, right, So I think I think

1046
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 5: that norms have changed in ways that are dangerous, and

1047
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 5: it would there is nothing constitutionally required about the number

1048
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,959
Speaker 5: of justices we have. I'm I mean, I understand why

1049
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 5: that's an appealing solution. I'm a little skeptical simply because

1050
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 5: I think then Republicans would add justices to the Court too,

1051
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 5: and the Court would eventually end up looking like the

1052
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 5: Senate and maybe that's, you know, not any worse. So, oh,

1053
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 5: we had no would at least I think the benefit

1054
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 5: of that would be that it would expose the Court

1055
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 5: for being what it is, which is political. But I've

1056
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 5: always thought I've been more attracted to the idea of

1057
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 5: term limits because one of the things that distresses me

1058
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 5: about the Court is that, you know, in theory, people

1059
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 5: will argue, well, you know, voters pick presidents and presidents

1060
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,840
Speaker 5: pick justices, so you're kind of you're left with the

1061
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,760
Speaker 5: court you vote for. And that argument really falls apart

1062
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 5: when you realize that, you know, Clarence Thomas, if you

1063
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 5: voted for the who picked Clarence Thomas, you did it

1064
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty eight, right, I was in elementary school,

1065
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 5: So that argument really falls apart. So I think at

1066
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 5: a minimum, if we're going to take seriously the idea

1067
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,399
Speaker 5: that the court makes sense in a democracy, I think

1068
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 5: then there has to be more turnover of justices. And

1069
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 5: different term limits have been put out there. Some people

1070
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 5: say it should be ten years, fifteen years, five years.

1071
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 5: You know, you see different ideas circulating. But I think

1072
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 5: that would be that's challenging, more challenging than increasing the

1073
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,720
Speaker 5: number of justices. But I think it may be better

1074
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 5: longer term if it's possible to follow that kind of road.

1075
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so true, Thank you, Mary. I hope you will

1076
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: come back.

1077
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, I'm down. Let me know when.

1078
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 6: No, no mood, Jesse Cannon, my John Fast. You know,

1079
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 6: I know that the Republicans were really excited to get

1080
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 6: all the subpoena power and all these things to investigate

1081
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 6: the quote unquote Biden crime family, but it seems like

1082
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 6: they're doing the net job they do at most things.

1083
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: So again, this is like so incredibly stupid. Four days ago,

1084
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 1: the New York Times ran a piece showing that Republicans

1085
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,879
Speaker 1: had found no evidence of Biden wrongdoing. You know, even

1086
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 1: though they've they've been on Benghazi Part two Benghazi U

1087
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: Bannghazi the sequel. They've been trying and trying to BEng

1088
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: Ghazi Biden, but they were unable. And so today James Comer,

1089
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: sort of the Louis Gohmert of this congressional session, went

1090
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 1: on Fox businesses Maria Bartaroma. You may remember her from

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00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: her problems with dominion. He went on and he said

1092
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: that there are these whistleblowers who have disappeared. He said,

1093
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: there are three things that have happened to these whistleblowers.

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00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 2: They've ended up in jail, they have disappeared, or they

1095
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 2: are in court. The only problem is there are no whistleblowers.

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Speaker 1: And for that, James Comer, Republican of Kentucky, is our

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00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: hearty moment to fuck Gray. That's it for this episode

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00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday

1099
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: to hear the best minds in politics makes sense of

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00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 1: all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please

1101
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

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Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.