Speaker 1: You do your best outer work when you do your
Speaker 1: best inner work. Hello and welcome to the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today we welcome my friend Hittendra Ladhoa on the show.
Speaker 1: Hittendra is Professor of Practice at Columbia Business School, where
Speaker 1: he teaches Colombia's most popular leadership course, the award winning
Speaker 1: Personal Leadership and Success. Hittendra is also the founder of
Speaker 1: Mentora Institute, which is at the forefront of creating a
Speaker 1: new model of leadership that is agile, authentic, and attainable.
Speaker 1: Hittendra's research and teaching on personal leadership have been covered
Speaker 1: by many prestigious outlets, and he is the author of
Speaker 1: the book Intermastery Outer Impact. In this episode, I talked
Speaker 1: to Hittendra about personal development. Growth is often associated with
Speaker 1: the mastery of skills, but Ttendra reminds us that inner
Speaker 1: work is also growth. The internal battles we face lead
Speaker 1: us to become more attuned to our most authentic selves
Speaker 1: and in order to unlocker full potential. He shares with
Speaker 1: us five core energy and how to activate them. We
Speaker 1: also touch on the topics of leadership, service, purpose, and transcendence.
Speaker 1: This is a really personally meaningful episode for me and
Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll see just how incredibly humble he is.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate his mixture of humbleness and wisdom, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure that you'll get a lot out of this episode,
Speaker 1: just as I did. So that further ado, I give
Speaker 1: you hit Tendra, Lahuah, Hit Tendra. So good to see you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming to my podcast, Scott. It's always a
Speaker 1: pleasure to be with you and this time and even
Speaker 1: greater honor to be with your listeners as well. Oh well,
Speaker 1: congratulations on your new book, Innermastery Outer Impact? Is this
Speaker 1: your first book? Is my first, and thank you for that.
Speaker 1: It's been quite a labor of love. I was thinking
Speaker 1: about writing about twelve years ago and every year since,
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to mature the work. I wanted
Speaker 1: to get it to a place where as a mathematician,
Speaker 1: as I guess I have been in my past life,
Speaker 1: I was waiting for all the pieces of the equation
Speaker 1: to come together. And so I'm grateful, you know, for
Speaker 1: this moment. When I finished the writing and send it
Speaker 1: over to the publisher. I remember walking over to my
Speaker 1: wife and just saying, you know, I think I can
Speaker 1: I think I can die in peace now. You know,
Speaker 1: it's finally there. Oh wow. Well it's a really great
Speaker 1: book and it brings obviously brings together so many years
Speaker 1: of your thinking, so real huge accomplishments. Tell our audience
Speaker 1: a little bit about you, like who are you? Yeah, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: just on that first comment, I do want to express
Speaker 1: my gratitude to you, Scott, and then behind you obviously
Speaker 1: a whole community of you know, psychologists and neuroscientists and
Speaker 1: others who have been pursuing, you know, the advancement of
Speaker 1: the branches of the tree of knowledge. And then you
Speaker 1: in particular, as someone who has been so great at
Speaker 1: distilling those you know and helping in a more kind
Speaker 1: of accessible form those of us who are not necessarily
Speaker 1: you know, a PhDs in advanced scientific disciplines to get
Speaker 1: to in real time and you know kind of access
Speaker 1: and integrate you know, some of that knowledge and practical ways. Anyway,
Speaker 1: So I'm very grateful because yes, I wrote the book,
Speaker 1: but I was standing on the shoulders of giants, you know,
Speaker 1: in the kind of reading and study I was able
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very gracious of you.
Speaker 1: So about your question, Yeah, I mean I grew up
Speaker 1: in India. I came to the United States when I
Speaker 1: was about twenty one to pursue higher studies and kind
Speaker 1: of advanced mathematics, which ultimately became really an application of
Speaker 1: maths to business. And yet from a very early age
Speaker 1: I was kind of very drawn to, you know, truths
Speaker 1: about human nature and also but life and the universe.
Speaker 1: And I guess in India one had the opportunity to
Speaker 1: engage in access, you know, on those issues from a
Speaker 1: place of scripture and spiritual study. And that was very,
Speaker 1: very rewarding for me really to seek to understand two
Speaker 1: seekers of the past and what they've discovered. And it
Speaker 1: is also you know, a very integrative kind of you know,
Speaker 1: place where they get very open and interested in any
Speaker 1: form of like truth seeking that has been done any
Speaker 1: part of the world, any cultures or traditions of contemplation, devotion, mysticism.
Speaker 1: And so I was able to actually get in some
Speaker 1: ways opportunity kind of access I guess, you know, a
Speaker 1: pathway to insite and inspiration, which is the spiritual. And
Speaker 1: then I was drawn to wanting to study psychology in college.
Speaker 1: It was my one of two favorite topics. Math was
Speaker 1: the other one. The reason I didn't end up majoring
Speaker 1: in it is because at that time, when I looked
Speaker 1: at what students are studying in college, it was kind
Speaker 1: of like focused on the dark states right of the
Speaker 1: human mind, the psychology of evil and depression and schizophrenia
Speaker 1: and all of that. And while you know Kudu's right,
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously hats off to the folks who have
Speaker 1: been really helping serve and support people in those states
Speaker 1: to kind of bring them to light, right to a
Speaker 1: better place, I personally was just like, my instincts are
Speaker 1: more drawn to studies of like creativity and genius and
Speaker 1: joy and ecstasy and you know, intelligence and all of
Speaker 1: that things, which was not being served very well at
Speaker 1: that time. And so anyway, so I left that path,
Speaker 1: went on to study mathematics and moved from there to management.
Speaker 1: And then the hunger decided to grow u from within me,
Speaker 1: which like the you're you're kind of like not really
Speaker 1: there yet with regard to what you want to be
Speaker 1: when you grow up. And so in my early to
Speaker 1: mid thirties, I went back to some more of my
Speaker 1: reconnection with my spiritual roots and asked myself, how can
Speaker 1: I re express these more practically on the outside and
Speaker 1: be connected with, like, Okay, what's been happening in psychology
Speaker 1: you know since I last left it. I was so
Speaker 1: thrilled to see the work that I know, you're so
Speaker 1: deeply steeped in, you know, around themes of positive psychology
Speaker 1: and other related disciplines cognitive behavior therapy and other such
Speaker 1: things that are starting to inform us, you know, about
Speaker 1: just how beautiful the possibilities are, right and aluminously capacities
Speaker 1: are in human nature. So anyway, so that that became
Speaker 1: then the final formal step I was able to take
Speaker 1: to teach a class of Comber Business School and bringing
Speaker 1: life and leadership together, you know, into into a discipline
Speaker 1: of what I call personal leadership. Okay, what's personal leadership?
Speaker 1: Let me actually illustrate it for a story. Right, So
Speaker 1: there's a secret Service agent who was an executive participant
Speaker 1: in one of my workshops, and he shared the story.
Speaker 1: He said that this one time, my wife and I
Speaker 1: were sitting in the backyard and we were just going
Speaker 1: to you know, have some vine and some food, and
Speaker 1: this man breaks in with a gun, you know, from
Speaker 1: across the bushes and comes into a backyard and then
Speaker 1: threatens us and asks that one of us, goes in
Speaker 1: and collect all our valuables and jewelry and cash and
Speaker 1: come back, and he'll hold the other one hostage. And
Speaker 1: he said, in that moment, I as this like very
Speaker 1: well trained person, you know, in secret service, was just
Speaker 1: about reacting. Someways when my wife jumps in and she
Speaker 1: says to that match, she says, I can't believe that
Speaker 1: you are doing this. You know, there must be something
Speaker 1: seriously challenging and difficult that was going on in your life.
Speaker 1: There must be some crisis here because you can't be
Speaker 1: feeling proud about doing this. You know, you're putting yourself
Speaker 1: in harms way, you're putting us in armsware. You know
Speaker 1: you must be getting forms to do this by some circumstances.
Speaker 1: And you know, my husband and I we were going to,
Speaker 1: you know, sit here and drink some wine and have
Speaker 1: some food, and why don't you do that, you know,
Speaker 1: join us, you know, put your gun aside and tell
Speaker 1: me more about your story, because I'm really concerned. I
Speaker 1: want to know about what's going on with you. And
Speaker 1: he said, I was terned. And this man he puts
Speaker 1: his gun down and he actually sits with us, and
Speaker 1: he eats dinner and of course it's a sad story.
Speaker 1: It's a tough story, and we start to emphathize with
Speaker 1: what he's gone through. And at the end of it,
Speaker 1: he's reaching out for his gun and I say, look,
Speaker 1: you can leave, sir, but you can't take your gun.
Speaker 1: And he left, and then he said the next morning,
Speaker 1: it's him and he's knocking on a door and he
Speaker 1: looks at me and he says, sir, I'm not here
Speaker 1: for the gun. But I didn't want to sank your
Speaker 1: wife and you for what you did for me last night,
Speaker 1: because that was so important for me. And you know,
Speaker 1: I just want to share a story because you asked
Speaker 1: for his personal leadership and I would say, what that
Speaker 1: you know woman did in that situation, that was personal leadership.
Speaker 1: You know. Personal leadership is his idea that in every
Speaker 1: moment of a life, official on official, public or private,
Speaker 1: front stage, back stage right, whether you're officially anointed as
Speaker 1: a leader with power and authority or be or not.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just a in aer choice we make
Speaker 1: to show up in a certain way, to seek to
Speaker 1: have the maximum positive impact within a sphere of influence,
Speaker 1: you know, to bring out the best in ourselves and
Speaker 1: bring out the best in others, and so that is
Speaker 1: what I've been very drawn to, wanting to qualify, and
Speaker 1: you offer up in some practical form. I love that.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you teach that in your leadership program
Speaker 1: at Columbia that you've taught for fifteen years? Is that right? Yes,
Speaker 1: in which you have been a very valued contributor. At Scott.
Speaker 1: It was great to have you in class. The students
Speaker 1: have loved your ideas and thoughts. You came into a
Speaker 1: just a brilliant session on resilience and and yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been doing it for what fifteen years now at
Speaker 1: the Business School, and over time was drawn to kind
Speaker 1: of like finding other platforms through which to offer it
Speaker 1: to the world, and so through the institute I was
Speaker 1: able to set up mentor institute. Over the last ten years,
Speaker 1: we've also been doing organizational and corporate work around you know,
Speaker 1: culture and leadership. So when you tell your students, I'm
Speaker 1: sure you tell them the story that you just told me.
Speaker 1: What is a good example or a good story that
Speaker 1: would illustrate public leadership? Just to contrast it, When you
Speaker 1: talk about public leadership, I'm assuming you mean Scott the
Speaker 1: idea of like leadership in public arena where it's actually
Speaker 1: helping to move you know, some organization or some movement
Speaker 1: into a positive space. Yes, okay, So I have been
Speaker 1: very drawn to studying some of these iconic figures from history,
Speaker 1: like an Apron Lincoln, Mother Treeesa, Mark mcgandhi Na Roosevelt,
Speaker 1: you know, Nelson, Mandela, these kinds of folks, and I
Speaker 1: actually have been so drawn and invested and inspired and
Speaker 1: formed by their work that ended up writing a chapter
Speaker 1: on each of these five figures in my book because
Speaker 1: I really wanted to help people see these figures and
Speaker 1: what we can learn from them in a new light,
Speaker 1: in the sense that sometimes we just believe that some
Speaker 1: people are just special and they're bond with some kind
Speaker 1: of you know, silver spoon in the mouth, and they're
Speaker 1: just meant for greatness and all of that, and then we,
Speaker 1: you know, don't realize actually how much instructive power there
Speaker 1: is to having us like study and make some of
Speaker 1: these people part of our inner circle of friends, really
Speaker 1: get to know them through studying biographical and auto biographical accounts. So,
Speaker 1: you know, my hope is if you read one of
Speaker 1: those chapters, is that you see the kind of growth
Speaker 1: they went through, and the kind of very very human
Speaker 1: qualities they had and capacities they had and actions there too, right,
Speaker 1: And what you realize is actually they were pretty pretty
Speaker 1: ordinary people. You know. They were like Ellen Roosevelt, Matfiza.
Speaker 1: They never went to college, you know, Abram Lincoln had
Speaker 1: one year of schooling. Mandela and Guardhi by the own confession,
Speaker 1: basically we're very poor students. And yet they had shone
Speaker 1: so luminously, right, but after having made lots of stumbles
Speaker 1: and lots of falls. So to me, like as one example,
Speaker 1: since you've asked, you know, of public leadership, you know,
Speaker 1: a very luminous way. You take Mandela when he went
Speaker 1: into prison, very firebrand, very angry, very invested in the
Speaker 1: black cause in South Africa for a lot of kind
Speaker 1: just rage and you know, impatience. And then he's in prison.
Speaker 1: Then he comes out of prison twenty seven years later,
Speaker 1: and at this point he's a bridge builder. He's a
Speaker 1: pillar of reconciliation. You know, the South African government which
Speaker 1: is teetering at that point under the weight of the
Speaker 1: foreign actions against you against them, sanctions and all that,
Speaker 1: and then the riots that were happening in South Africa,
Speaker 1: so they realized that the game might be up sometimes soon,
Speaker 1: but they need somebody who's a peacemaker, you know, who
Speaker 1: isn't just full of grudge and revenge and hatred and anger.
Speaker 1: And over the years, over the twenty seven years, Manella's
Speaker 1: reputation was building as one of those kinds of people
Speaker 1: that they may be able to trust and very different
Speaker 1: and distinct from other leaders of the African National Congress
Speaker 1: and other revolutionary parties in South Africa at that time
Speaker 1: because of this way in which he was able to
Speaker 1: reassure the white population and their leaders that look, we
Speaker 1: are going to do the right thing for South Africa.
Speaker 1: We're going to do the right thing for the people
Speaker 1: of South Africa, including the blacks, and we're going to
Speaker 1: do it in a way which is going to allow
Speaker 1: us to make peace with the past and then embrace
Speaker 1: the future rather than keep burning, you know, with hatred
Speaker 1: and causing in his own words, what he would say,
Speaker 1: rivers of blood, you know, flow through South Africa. Now,
Speaker 1: how did Mandela become that kind of an integrative, peaceful agent. Well,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of lessons to be learnt for what
Speaker 1: happened over the course of those you know, twenty seven
Speaker 1: years in prison, and in some ways they just like
Speaker 1: are so emblematic of the core thesis of my book,
Speaker 1: you know, this idea of inner mastery to outer impact.
Speaker 1: You do your best outer work when you do your
Speaker 1: best inner work, you know, because over the course of
Speaker 1: his time in prison, he really worked on taming his anger,
Speaker 1: He worked on other aspects of his character. He actually
Speaker 1: wrote to his wife and said, look, when we're in
Speaker 1: the world, we're so obsessed with wanting to succeed and
Speaker 1: achieve and attain and consume him. He said, but when
Speaker 1: you're in prison, you don't have like the opportunity to
Speaker 1: do that. So instead you can actually spend all this
Speaker 1: time to like sculpture character, you know. So he worked
Speaker 1: on that. He studied and understood more Africana white you know,
Speaker 1: South African history, and there he rose so that he
Speaker 1: could empathize with the enemy, and then when the time
Speaker 1: came for negotiation, et cetera, he was just more credible,
Speaker 1: more influential, more inspiring, more disarming you know, to them
Speaker 1: as well. So anyway, I mean, he's fund a great
Speaker 1: example of public leadership. Yeah, that's a great example. Now
Speaker 1: I know that you're fascinated with the Indian emperor Shoka.
Speaker 1: All right, so tell me why you like that? Cat?
Speaker 1: I love, I love how you draw these things out, Scotten.
Speaker 1: Can I just say I'm just deeply honored, first of all,
Speaker 1: just to be your Scott first of all, with you
Speaker 1: as both a their friend and somebody I'll look up
Speaker 1: to you, you know, for your scholarship and your podcasts
Speaker 1: and so much more, and then for the you know,
Speaker 1: the guests that you had on this podcast, you know,
Speaker 1: who I've enjoyed listening to and who I know are
Speaker 1: just like so much more accomplished, right than what your
Speaker 1: listeners are being subjected to today. So anyway, so I
Speaker 1: just wanted to share that, well, my friend much belong here.
Speaker 1: He very much belonged here, and so it's an honor
Speaker 1: for us to have you here as well. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to know why you like a Showka so much? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so a showca For those of who don't don't know
Speaker 1: about him, So he is an Indian emperor from like
Speaker 1: a couple of centuries you know BC, right, and he
Speaker 1: initially had a very power hungry kind of path in life,
Speaker 1: where he is noted to have killed a lot of
Speaker 1: his own relatives in order to accelerate coming from royalty,
Speaker 1: you know, his path to being the undisputed king and leader,
Speaker 1: and he was annointed that. Then he went on a
Speaker 1: land grabbing kind of like expanding his terrain and territory
Speaker 1: kind of series of wars. So that's one, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of key dimension of a showcun But then there's
Speaker 1: this other dimension where what happens is at some point
Speaker 1: in one of those wars, he actually goes down to
Speaker 1: the battlefield and he actually speiances the pain and the suffering,
Speaker 1: the injured and dying soldiers, the widows, the orphans, and
Speaker 1: it's just kind of melts his heart, melts, his heart,
Speaker 1: melts his art, and he comes out from it like
Speaker 1: a newer figure where he's now just reframing what it
Speaker 1: means to be a king and it's not as much
Speaker 1: about ruling over you know, his people as it is
Speaker 1: about serving his people. And so with that, you know,
Speaker 1: turn the rest of his tenure is luminous, is beautiful.
Speaker 1: He ends up being very you know, invested in keeping
Speaker 1: the border secure so that you know, he can continue
Speaker 1: to afford that kind of security to his kingdom. But
Speaker 1: he's really mostly focused on service, upliftments of the poor,
Speaker 1: and dispensation of some combination of himu with Buddhist kind
Speaker 1: of you know, kind of teachings of that time that
Speaker 1: he actually actively propagated, you know, throughout throughout his kingdom
Speaker 1: to help support and help people understand, you know, the
Speaker 1: deeper meaning of life. So he's a beloved figure in India,
Speaker 1: just like Alexander's call it Alexander the Great. You know,
Speaker 1: in popular speak, Ashoka in India is called Ashoka the Great.
Speaker 1: And on India's actually flag, the very center of the
Speaker 1: flag is this wal with these folks in it, and
Speaker 1: that wal is actually a symbol that comes from Ashoka
Speaker 1: sam and is really in honor of his reign. He's
Speaker 1: considered to be the pre eminent, you know, king in
Speaker 1: Indian history. Now, the reason why he is pre eminent
Speaker 1: some regard is because of all this greatness of service
Speaker 1: and dispensation of powerful, beautiful teachings and really role modeling
Speaker 1: what a king ought to do for me. Though my
Speaker 1: interest comes from something different, you know. My interest comes
Speaker 1: from the fact that he went from that very dark
Speaker 1: place to that very bright and beautiful place, that capacity
Speaker 1: in one life to be able to move from one
Speaker 1: version of you to this other version of you. You know,
Speaker 1: I see something similar, although you know it was not
Speaker 1: as extreme in terms of the dark side of that chapter.
Speaker 1: With the life of Saint Augustine, you know, he also
Speaker 1: went from like a really based kind of you know,
Speaker 1: way of living to a beautiful, beautiful life that allowed
Speaker 1: him to help medi your time become one of the
Speaker 1: great saints of Christian dum so anyway, But that pivot
Speaker 1: and that capacity to grow and reform one's character, I
Speaker 1: guess was what really is that? What you mean by
Speaker 1: having dominion over yourself? You open up your book with
Speaker 1: ewen Ardo da Vinci quote, you will never have a
Speaker 1: greater or lesser dominion than that over yourself. If you
Speaker 1: had to unpacked what it means to have dominion of yourself,
Speaker 1: would you say that's it to grow and learn from
Speaker 1: your mistakes? Is that? How do you see dominion of yourself?
Speaker 1: I want to just kind of unpack growth for a moment,
Speaker 1: because we often celebrate growth in our world on the
Speaker 1: basis of outer qualities that people can master. Right, So,
Speaker 1: somebody didn't know how to play a guitar, and then
Speaker 1: they became the world's greate as guitarist, or you know,
Speaker 1: started from nothing and became like the greatest long distance
Speaker 1: athlete or something. You know, that's considered growth. Or I
Speaker 1: didn't know much about business and I became a great
Speaker 1: entreprenew I learned a lot about how to start a company.
Speaker 1: You know, that's considered growth. But that's outer growth, right,
Speaker 1: And then there's another dimension to growth, which is what
Speaker 1: we might call inner growth, and what is in a growth.
Speaker 1: You know, one way to think about it is that
Speaker 1: within us, in our quest to be authentic, to be
Speaker 1: true to ourselves, what we often don't realize is that
Speaker 1: we first have to fight a lot of inner battles
Speaker 1: to earn that right because within us are so many
Speaker 1: competing selves. You know, there's a part of me that
Speaker 1: wants to lash out of this person when I'm really angry,
Speaker 1: because I want to just like give him a piece
Speaker 1: of my mind, right, And there's another part which wants
Speaker 1: to hold back and be more careful about it because
Speaker 1: I feel it will demotivate them, or I feel like
Speaker 1: maybe I'm being too rushed in my judgment and I
Speaker 1: need to kind of you know, there's a part of
Speaker 1: me that wants to just gratify a certain urge or
Speaker 1: a desire, and there's a part of me wants to
Speaker 1: hold back because I realized that it may not be
Speaker 1: good for my long term health, you know, or something
Speaker 1: like that. Part of me wants to be lazy and
Speaker 1: chilled out, and a part of me wants to be
Speaker 1: really committed and driven, and you know, hands on all that, right,
Speaker 1: And so I mean, we don't really you know, respect
Speaker 1: and honor this inner kind of tussle that is going
Speaker 1: on within each of us. But if we did, we
Speaker 1: start to, in a sobering way, realize that before I
Speaker 1: am true to myself, I need to know what my
Speaker 1: true self is, and I need to actually make some
Speaker 1: amount of warfare with my false friends within those drives
Speaker 1: and impulses and urges and addictions and habits and emotional
Speaker 1: surges that may in the moment feel very fulfilling to gratify,
Speaker 1: but actually two minutes later we regret it, or two
Speaker 1: hours later we look back and say, what were you thinking, Tendra,
Speaker 1: Or like why did you send that email? Or like
Speaker 1: two years later, like I wish I had a little
Speaker 1: bit more discipline at this part of my life, or
Speaker 1: what have you. That's what I see, you know, in
Speaker 1: that quote, is that the dominion over oneself is a
Speaker 1: recognition that there are many competing forces and energies within us,
Speaker 1: some taking us in the direction that will allow us
Speaker 1: to be unconditionally happy in the long run and fulfilled
Speaker 1: and of value to the world, and some that will
Speaker 1: keep us far from our fullest potential. And then one
Speaker 1: can actually separate those out, become aware of them, acknowledge them,
Speaker 1: and then move one's life gradually, step by step closer
Speaker 1: to those, you know, pulls, impulses, aspirations and stirrings that
Speaker 1: take us in that, you know, in the more positive direction.
Speaker 1: I think that to me is a person who's increasingly
Speaker 1: gaining dominion over themselves. What do you think of that?
Speaker 1: You know, you do a lot of thinking on these
Speaker 1: topics so much, Scott, So, I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on that. I was gonna say
Speaker 1: that I have long thought about what authenticity means, and
Speaker 1: I pushed back into the notion there's such a thing
Speaker 1: as a real self, because as you say, there's we
Speaker 1: have so many competing selves, and well, I would say
Speaker 1: they're all part of us, you know, they're all what
Speaker 1: makes us who we are. There are maybe more long
Speaker 1: term oriented, so to speak. And so is that basically
Speaker 1: what you mean by getting in touch with your real
Speaker 1: self is getting in touch with those those potentialities within
Speaker 1: you that can make a more longer term impact than
Speaker 1: like the joy of eating greasy pizza on a Sunday night,
Speaker 1: Like it's not going to really impact yourself for the
Speaker 1: world in the long term much. Is that what you
Speaker 1: mean by real self? I think that's a nice challenge
Speaker 1: to put on me, Scott, because you definitely exposed in
Speaker 1: the way I was just describing it, you know, a
Speaker 1: certain NATO consting you know, of that idea than what
Speaker 1: I actually would want to communicate in the example that
Speaker 1: we have come across that way. So thank you for
Speaker 1: giving me another opportunity to further you know, elaborate, right. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: the way I kind of like share that in the
Speaker 1: book as best I understand it, right is, you know,
Speaker 1: and of course these are topics where we can just
Speaker 1: continue to grow in our own personal understanding. Is that
Speaker 1: within within you and within me, there is an inner core,
Speaker 1: and that inner core is the space of highest potential
Speaker 1: within us, from where our you know best impulses arise
Speaker 1: where we When we are in that space, we are
Speaker 1: beyond ego, you know, we are beyond attachments and insecurities,
Speaker 1: and we can be free, you know, to choose with
Speaker 1: wisdom the right actions, the right speech, you know, and
Speaker 1: the right feelings and thoughts, you know. And so and
Speaker 1: we driftn in our in and out of it, you know,
Speaker 1: from down to time all of us have maybe glimpsed it.
Speaker 1: Some of us are more anchored in it, you know,
Speaker 1: some make more kind of steady commitments to kind of
Speaker 1: like strive to be operating from that place. But most
Speaker 1: of not all of us, right are at times apart
Speaker 1: from it, and at times a little bit closer to it.
Speaker 1: And if you were to intubitibly, you know, as a
Speaker 1: listener to this conversation that Scott, you and I are have,
Speaker 1: and if you were to reflect on one other moments
Speaker 1: that you feel most you know, at your calmest, most centered,
Speaker 1: most connected, most committed to like a noble uplifting purpose. Well,
Speaker 1: that's giving you a glimpse of that inner core is.
Speaker 1: And so that is how I would define your true self,
Speaker 1: That your true self is that core. And in some
Speaker 1: ways it's one of life's most beautiful goals to help
Speaker 1: us get to tune into and awaken and get more
Speaker 1: connected with and express in everyday lives more and more
Speaker 1: of that core. Now, if that core coming from that
Speaker 1: place of centeredness, connectedness, calmness, et cetera, tells you, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: this is the moment to engage in the joy of life.
Speaker 1: And as part of that, sit down with your body
Speaker 1: and actually enjoy that pizza. Then why not? You know?
Speaker 1: Then why not? And of course make sure that you
Speaker 1: don't do it in such an overindulged and you know
Speaker 1: way that actually your diet every day is that pizza, right,
Speaker 1: because that might get you into a place you don't
Speaker 1: want to get to. But but why not, right enjoy
Speaker 1: some of those beautiful specials of life. I agree. There's
Speaker 1: the psychoanalyst Karen Horney I think is very underrated. She
Speaker 1: was one of the first ones to really challenge Freud,
Speaker 1: and she wrote a lot about the real self she
Speaker 1: I think. I think the way that she wrote about
Speaker 1: is very much aligned with how you write about it.
Speaker 1: She said, it's that a live, unique personal center of ourselves.
Speaker 1: That's how she describes it. I think that's a beautiful
Speaker 1: or to the idea of the of there being a core.
Speaker 1: But she really likens it to where the aspect of
Speaker 1: you that you feel most alive, unique, personal, and creative
Speaker 1: and and and yeah, flurishing, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1: See I'm getting I'm getting to say take notes. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know you guys are both a very well aligned.
Speaker 1: I love the definition, but I would call that healthy authenticity.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's such thing as a real self,
Speaker 1: you know, And I think that that becomes dangerous that
Speaker 1: way of thinking, because then you serve don't take responsibility
Speaker 1: for your naughty bits. You say, oh, that wasn't really me.
Speaker 1: You how many celebrities do terrible things and they that
Speaker 1: thing I did last night? You know that wasn't the
Speaker 1: real me. It's like, yeah, it kind of was, kind
Speaker 1: of was. You gotta take responsibility for your whole self
Speaker 1: on the route to personal development. But I love it.
Speaker 1: I love that definition of I would just call it
Speaker 1: healthy authenticity or your higher self perhaps, or your creative self. Yeah,
Speaker 1: your unique self. I like that. I like that higher self,
Speaker 1: better self. Yeah, high authenticity, And maybe there's like the
Speaker 1: potential there to embrace paradox, right, which is you never
Speaker 1: want to lose sight of that potential within you because
Speaker 1: that can help you a little bit in moments where
Speaker 1: you get you know, really you know, to struggle with
Speaker 1: self esteem issues and all that because because you feel
Speaker 1: you have that right. But at the same time, to
Speaker 1: your point, you have to realize that there's an embodied
Speaker 1: version of you, right, which is acting in the present moment,
Speaker 1: and you have to take ownership and responsibility over that,
Speaker 1: which is what you just said, right, And so that's
Speaker 1: the paradox. Yes, And in your book you outline five
Speaker 1: I believe there are five core energies and absolutely these
Speaker 1: these are things that will help you unlock your greatest potential,
Speaker 1: no doubt, no doubt. So can you just tell me
Speaker 1: the overall outline of those five sure? Sure. So the
Speaker 1: idea is that, you know, when we talk about this
Speaker 1: idea of the inner core and activating the core and
Speaker 1: living you know, from that core and leading from the core,
Speaker 1: then well, you know, how do you make that practical? Right?
Speaker 1: That's the question I was on And what I realized
Speaker 1: is that we tend to often in business schools and
Speaker 1: leadership programs, et cetera. You know, like guide people on
Speaker 1: what we need to do on the outside. And so
Speaker 1: it's very behavioral training. But behaviors come from somewhere, They
Speaker 1: stem from some you know, something from within. And I
Speaker 1: thought it was more important to first create the inner
Speaker 1: pathways before the outer expressions you know that they lead to.
Speaker 1: And that's what I found very helpful to do through
Speaker 1: these energies. And so I mean, you know, for those
Speaker 1: of us coming from you know, a whole person kind
Speaker 1: of view, you might think of four of these energies
Speaker 1: as what they call mind, body, heart spirit. You know,
Speaker 1: I'll call them differently, and I'll tell you what I
Speaker 1: call them. And the yoga traditions again, we have these
Speaker 1: four major schools of yoga, you know, current Yoga, BA Yoga,
Speaker 1: Gya and Yoga and raj Yoga. And again those four
Speaker 1: aligned very well with mind, body, heart Spirit. And those
Speaker 1: are four of the five energies that I discussed in
Speaker 1: my books. So what are these energies? So the first
Speaker 1: of them is purpose, you know, which is this very
Speaker 1: sort of physical engagement, oriented doing, oriented energy of recognizing
Speaker 1: that I want to show up and you know, leave
Speaker 1: like a positive kind of you know, footprint in the
Speaker 1: sense of time, and what is that going to be
Speaker 1: for me? What is the why behind what it is
Speaker 1: that I'm choosing to make my vocation invest my energies
Speaker 1: and times in the world. And you know, the outer
Speaker 1: goals might change, the outer even vocational like formal roles
Speaker 1: and titles might change over time, and at some point
Speaker 1: my body ages and I retire and all of that.
Speaker 1: But those are like the outer changes you know, from
Speaker 1: inside the intention, you know, and the drive could still
Speaker 1: come from the same core, you know, the core purpose,
Speaker 1: the core values, which I'm just re expressing through a
Speaker 1: series of different goals over the course of my life
Speaker 1: as my resources and conditions keep changing. So that's the purpose.
Speaker 1: Energy makes you very anchored from within, an agile from
Speaker 1: the outside or adaptive from the outside. The you know,
Speaker 1: and some of the teachings and thoughts you put out
Speaker 1: there on resilience I think would speak well to that.
Speaker 1: The second is wisdom, and wisdom is about recognizing that,
Speaker 1: you know, as I said, the road to hell is
Speaker 1: paved with good intentions. You know, you can have the
Speaker 1: best of intentions, but if you're like going to be
Speaker 1: consumed by limiting beliefs or some distorted thoughts or some
Speaker 1: emotional spell that is not allowing you to be the
Speaker 1: best version of yourself. Well, then you know you're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to fully manifest you know, your
Speaker 1: your true possibilities and potential. And so wisdom is about
Speaker 1: always seeking to be tuning into truth in whichever form
Speaker 1: it comes comfortable or uncomfortable. You know, there's a change
Speaker 1: of facial expression in the person in front of you,
Speaker 1: and you were asking something of them, and you know,
Speaker 1: did you pay attention to that? You know, was there
Speaker 1: a glimpse you got of like what might be the
Speaker 1: feeling that they're going through and that they're politely nodding
Speaker 1: on the outside, but they're not be genuinely invested, might
Speaker 1: be troubled. Well, you know, are you inquiring to learn
Speaker 1: more about that? You know that would be a wise
Speaker 1: response coming from a place of truth seeking that you're
Speaker 1: going through. And the more our emotions and our thoughts
Speaker 1: are things that we take ownership over, we engage with them,
Speaker 1: relate to them, see whether they're helping us, you know,
Speaker 1: get your good place fantastic? What signal are they sending
Speaker 1: to us? What insight and understanding are they giving to us?
Speaker 1: But also whether they're not working for us, what can
Speaker 1: we do to redirectgre shape them. So that's the wisdom energy.
Speaker 1: The third is gross and you know, we were speaking
Speaker 1: a little bit about that. There's the outer growth, but
Speaker 1: there's the inner growth. And the inner growth comes from
Speaker 1: not merely seeking to measure a certain profession or a
Speaker 1: discipline or a skill or a world class you know,
Speaker 1: certain quality, but seeking to do three things. One is
Speaker 1: to tame those trigger moments so that you can act
Speaker 1: out your best self more and more, rather than feel
Speaker 1: pain and disappointed with certain conduct because you've got very
Speaker 1: aroused in some way that was too intense. That's one
Speaker 1: part of growth from the inside. The other is that
Speaker 1: in your everyday moments you're seeking to more and more
Speaker 1: as best possible, not operate from a place of distraction
Speaker 1: or disgruntlement or something, but from your core, from that
Speaker 1: space of highest potential, your best self with as much
Speaker 1: as possible. And then the third is to really certain
Speaker 1: contemplative you know, practices and moments, take time to really
Speaker 1: dive within and discover more and more and more about
Speaker 1: that hidden potential is you know of you know, unconditional
Speaker 1: perhaps like joy and peace and tranquility and fulfillment and
Speaker 1: love that you might actually be able to find you
Speaker 1: can access, you know, from the deep, you know, well
Speaker 1: spring of what you have at the very center of
Speaker 1: your being, so that that's the growth energy, just keeping
Speaker 1: and growing in those ways, you know, through the activation
Speaker 1: and expression of your core. The fourth is love, you know,
Speaker 1: and love is an energy which is about recognizing that
Speaker 1: everything in the world is connected with everything else. You
Speaker 1: know that as roomy is the Sufi say, he once said,
Speaker 1: is love is? He said, love is a bridge between
Speaker 1: you and everything you know, And it's been very humbling,
Speaker 1: you know when I like study in nature to see
Speaker 1: how much intelligence there is in nature, you know, at
Speaker 1: every ship, how things are in balance right everywhere the planets.
Speaker 1: You know. I used to think that the Moon is
Speaker 1: like this ornament, you know, made for the romanticness you
Speaker 1: know amongst all of us. But actually, if it wasn't
Speaker 1: for the Moon, the Earth's you know, access of rotation
Speaker 1: would be wobbly, and then we would have fluctuating temperatures
Speaker 1: that are super cold and super hot, and the human
Speaker 1: species wouldn't be able to survive on the planet. So
Speaker 1: the Moon is secretly actually help me and keep the
Speaker 1: oarth and balance in a really good way. Jupiter has
Speaker 1: its role, you know, in the planetary system, and who
Speaker 1: knows what role other galaxies have in order to keep
Speaker 1: our galaxy whole and alive and everything. So if everything
Speaker 1: is connective with everything, that means there's no such thing
Speaker 1: as a self, you know, human being, a man of woman.
Speaker 1: You know, we're all really taking so much, taking so
Speaker 1: much from past generations, from the mother who bore us,
Speaker 1: you know, and whoever are the caregivers that nurtured us
Speaker 1: over time. And if you come from that humble place
Speaker 1: of just appreciation, connection, gratitude, then love is about taking
Speaker 1: joy in other people's joy, finding success and their success,
Speaker 1: and seeking to be of service to the higher self,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, the whole universe, all of humanity,
Speaker 1: rather than just your individual self, you know, as in
Speaker 1: yourself right. And then finally there self realization and selfalization
Speaker 1: is the fifth and final of these. Energy is the
Speaker 1: most subtle in some ways. It's about this idea that
Speaker 1: actually there is a part of you that is core split.
Speaker 1: You know that it's from where your deepest turnings aries
Speaker 1: and through practices like walks in nature or speaking to
Speaker 1: somebody that really inspires you. Reading a poem that just
Speaker 1: uplifts you, or a contemplative practice like prayer or meditation.
Speaker 1: You know, you get to connect, you know, that subtlest
Speaker 1: energy within you. You're kind of like in those moments
Speaker 1: beyond thoughts, beyond feeling, an idea arises, if feeling arises,
Speaker 1: but it's not an emotion, it's not actually enclothed and
Speaker 1: thoughts yet, it's just some subtle state of being from
Speaker 1: within and that celfrization and the value of that is
Speaker 1: like if you really strive for that practice, that nurture that,
Speaker 1: then when you satisfy a lot of your psychological hungers
Speaker 1: from within, and then you can show up, you know,
Speaker 1: as a parent, not wanting to impose a certain order
Speaker 1: on your child, not wanting to show up as a
Speaker 1: leader at work, wanting to have people really like you,
Speaker 1: love you. I think you're the smartest, but to do
Speaker 1: you know, do service, you know, do service to the child,
Speaker 1: and do service to your people at work, because like
Speaker 1: your own hungers are being met from within anyway, So
Speaker 1: that circuzation, Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'd love
Speaker 1: to ask you what your reactions and thoughts are there's
Speaker 1: some that you feel more resonant with scarce than others,
Speaker 1: or some that you don't like. Well, these all seem
Speaker 1: like things I would want to put within my best self,
Speaker 1: or my healthy authenticity or my highest self. For sure,
Speaker 1: these are these are wonderful skills and states of being
Speaker 1: to cultivate in one's life. Absolutely, you would really make
Speaker 1: a great guru in India. But your only limitation for
Speaker 1: that is that you're too humble. Yeah, you're too humble,
Speaker 1: I mean because these these gurus they say things very
Speaker 1: similar to what you're saying. You're saying a lot of
Speaker 1: very wise things, but you don't really have this bone
Speaker 1: in your body that where you think like your word
Speaker 1: is the is the word. And there's something very very
Speaker 1: endearing about that. By the way, I say this is
Speaker 1: a positive thing because I don't really find a lot
Speaker 1: of gurs endearing personally. And I know that might be
Speaker 1: a controversial thing to say, but I actually find your
Speaker 1: energy more endearing quite frankly. So anyway, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you, if you've ever thought of the guru root.
Speaker 1: I have been blessed to have been, I guess, in
Speaker 1: contact with such great people in the world. Such great
Speaker 1: people in the world, some very unsung, you know in
Speaker 1: terms of their public position and prominence. Some just in
Speaker 1: history that I've read, you know, I've read about the life,
Speaker 1: I've read about the teachings that I feel so vastly
Speaker 1: you know, unprepared to take on that mantle you know,
Speaker 1: of saying whatever you want to call it, because I know,
Speaker 1: I know my clause, I know my very early steps
Speaker 1: that I'm taking towards the advancement of my own quest
Speaker 1: for coming close to the core. It's a joyful journey.
Speaker 1: It's a joyful journey. And I realized that in some
Speaker 1: way like you, Scott, I mean, you discovered it much
Speaker 1: early in your life, your purpose in some regards. But
Speaker 1: I realized that for me, if I can share, you know,
Speaker 1: some of these small you know, yeah, just ideas, thoughts, breakthroughs,
Speaker 1: inside stirrings and inspirational things whatever. There's stories that have
Speaker 1: been of such great value to me that from the sideline,
Speaker 1: I just love to be able to kind of like
Speaker 1: offer that up to every true seco on the passage,
Speaker 1: you know, to to a higher place. But the idea
Speaker 1: of Guruhod, I mean, that's you know, there are some
Speaker 1: people out there who have been blessed to have been
Speaker 1: connected with, like I said, some from history and some
Speaker 1: in real life, that there's such such a high bar
Speaker 1: for this for me that I wouldn't even want to
Speaker 1: go there. Well, how did you come up with these
Speaker 1: five core energies? What was your methodology? Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: because you know, you're such a qualifier of knowledge that
Speaker 1: we all strive to bring structure right to the ideas
Speaker 1: and thoughts we want to offer. And so when I
Speaker 1: first started to do that in my class and personal leadership,
Speaker 1: I had come up with you know, purpose, wisdom, and growth.
Speaker 1: And then I started to feel like something is missing,
Speaker 1: something is missing, and that turned out to be loved.
Speaker 1: Like I thought, like, you know, love is covered in
Speaker 1: with them because it's an emotion. Then I realized, actually,
Speaker 1: it's not an emotion. It's like a core force in
Speaker 1: the universe, and much more core for like anger to
Speaker 1: me is not a core force in the universe, but
Speaker 1: love is. And I realized it had to be given
Speaker 1: identity of its own in the inner structure of human nature.
Speaker 1: And then science started to explode with findings about mindfulness
Speaker 1: and meditation and some of the benefits that people see
Speaker 1: from it. Now. I had been very drawn to those
Speaker 1: disciplines from a very young age and hadn't really regularized
Speaker 1: my own practice until I was in my early mid thirties.
Speaker 1: But by that time I had so around. You know,
Speaker 1: twelve years ago, as I started to see the science
Speaker 1: come out in it, I said, you know what, he Candra,
Speaker 1: this doesn't have to be you doing this in the
Speaker 1: closet anymore. You now have you know, CEOs are coming
Speaker 1: out and talking about their meditation practice. You're in a
Speaker 1: business school, you have scientific validation for it, and even
Speaker 1: though it's not something that has ever been taught necessarily
Speaker 1: in a business school, let's come out and talk about it. Okay, Now,
Speaker 1: how does it fit into the framework. And so that's
Speaker 1: where the selfization energy became one. And I'm just so
Speaker 1: grateful that we're living in the times we are, Scott
Speaker 1: because again, because of the beautiful work or you know,
Speaker 1: science and some of your own studies and everything, we
Speaker 1: have the opportunity now to be more free and open
Speaker 1: about talking about truly the whole person, of which selfalization
Speaker 1: is one one dimension. Thank you for explaining a little
Speaker 1: bit more the genesis of your thinking about these core energies,
Speaker 1: and I really like how you distinguish between living with
Speaker 1: these energies versus leading with them. Can you tell me
Speaker 1: what the difference is between the two, like even like
Speaker 1: personal leadership that seems to be tied to living it,
Speaker 1: But maybe I'm not understanding that distinction correctly, So tell
Speaker 1: me a little bit more. You've actually been pointed the Achilles'
Speaker 1: heels of this whole work, because I do. I did
Speaker 1: struggle a little bit, but kind of like how exactly
Speaker 1: to kind of offer that up. One way to think
Speaker 1: about it is that we have two steps to take
Speaker 1: in life. The first is to activate these energies within us,
Speaker 1: to be connected with our core, to activate purpose and
Speaker 1: wisdom and growth and surprisation and love within us. The
Speaker 1: second part, then is to express it on the outside.
Speaker 1: The purpose of that is to harmonize you with the
Speaker 1: messy and muddy world that we live in, so that
Speaker 1: your modus operandi, the manner in which you engage in
Speaker 1: conversations and interactions and work and responsibilities and fun and play,
Speaker 1: is through purpose and wisdom and love and growth and surprisation.
Speaker 1: And in part the reason for that is because you
Speaker 1: want others around you to be activated in the same
Speaker 1: way as well. Because if I'm interacting with my child,
Speaker 1: and I can get that child connected with their core,
Speaker 1: get that child to be flowing with love, get that
Speaker 1: child to be really calm and connected with oois them.
Speaker 1: If I'm interacting with the team at work, and I
Speaker 1: can get that team really inspired and fired up about
Speaker 1: their purpose, or I'm striving to heal a nation and
Speaker 1: make people collectively across communities come together to do the
Speaker 1: next step or nation building that we need to since
Speaker 1: we're dismantling the old order and trying to reassemble it
Speaker 1: in a way that takes a more closer to an
Speaker 1: ideal society. Again, the same thing. Do I just want
Speaker 1: them to do what I think is the right thing
Speaker 1: in a command and control a way because I I
Speaker 1: know best, Or do I want them to be engaging
Speaker 1: in a million different innovations at whatever stage and level
Speaker 1: they're at in the social order by being activated at
Speaker 1: their core, operating from a place of great loving connection,
Speaker 1: you know, wise, openness to truth, deep commitment purposefully to
Speaker 1: the right, you know all of that right. And so
Speaker 1: that's the outer game of these energies and the inner
Speaker 1: game is to activate in ourselves. The way we get
Speaker 1: a little limited sometimes in our relationships with people in
Speaker 1: our roles as managers and leaders at times or professionals,
Speaker 1: is a we may seek to engage in certain actions
Speaker 1: without actually having shown up the right way in the
Speaker 1: room because perhaps and tensions are not as pure, or
Speaker 1: we're not as center or open or et cetera. So that's,
Speaker 1: you know, a state where the energies from inside have
Speaker 1: not been have not been lived. You know, you're not
Speaker 1: really living these And the second way we sometimes get,
Speaker 1: you know, to beyond worst enemies is that, let's say
Speaker 1: we are coming from a good place, but we don't
Speaker 1: realize that part of our responsibility is not just to
Speaker 1: accept people on face value for how they're showing up,
Speaker 1: but to feed a certain center of stewardship, you know,
Speaker 1: on our own side, that what can I do to
Speaker 1: help this person get to the core, to help this
Speaker 1: person express these energies, And that's leading to me. So
Speaker 1: leading is helping other people get to the core, while
Speaker 1: living is first being committed to getting yourself to your core. Nice.
Speaker 1: Nice that it seems like a good first step. Okay,
Speaker 1: for the end of this interview. Now let's let's uh,
Speaker 1: let's shoot to transcendence. This is this last chapter of
Speaker 1: your book. I love this is my favorite chapter of
Speaker 1: your book. You talk about the mystic in all of us.
Speaker 1: So in the last chapter of book says, the longing
Speaker 1: for transcendence, for a feeling of being connected to something
Speaker 1: much greater than yourself, is the highest of human hungers.
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit more about transcendence and maybe why
Speaker 1: we we don't seem to have a lot of that
Speaker 1: in our society today. Well, you know you're asking the
Speaker 1: question with a lot of you know, sweet humility, Scott,
Speaker 1: because I'm talking to mister transcendence. Right, listeners, did you
Speaker 1: know that he's got a book on it, He's got
Speaker 1: a whole class on it. He's been dedicating years of
Speaker 1: study to it. Right, And Scott, I remember, I don't
Speaker 1: know if you may recount this moment, but you and
Speaker 1: I we were sitting if I could reveal this at
Speaker 1: La Pequotinia, you know this restaurant eighty fourth and Amsterdam. Yes,
Speaker 1: manbe ferst met and you were sharing with me what
Speaker 1: you're working on next and uh and you and you
Speaker 1: said transcendence, and it lit my heart. You know, I
Speaker 1: just was so thrilled, you know, right there, I knew
Speaker 1: that we'd have a lifelong friendship. Definitely, definitely. But brother,
Speaker 1: you've you've thought about transcendence longer than me, so I
Speaker 1: really would love to hear your thoughts about it, and
Speaker 1: you have a lot of wisdom. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I've thought about it longer than you, Scott, but I
Speaker 1: have been just personally, I guess, like really inspired about
Speaker 1: one thing to grow towards experiencing it. I guess that's
Speaker 1: something which from the age of ten I was very
Speaker 1: very wrong too. You know. I'd hear about these mystics
Speaker 1: who were in a state of just like inspired ecstasy,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of like an expansion of consciousness, but
Speaker 1: they were connected with like every atom in creation and
Speaker 1: all of that, and I just thought, wow, like that
Speaker 1: sounds to me like the highest in human potential. You know,
Speaker 1: I'd love to get there, but there's like infinite in India.
Speaker 1: One of the ways to describe the idea of God
Speaker 1: right is not as like a bearded gentleman on a
Speaker 1: throne somewhere sitting down in judgment of humanity, but just
Speaker 1: as this force, this creative force in the universe, which
Speaker 1: is described as infinite, ever new, ever conscious joy. And
Speaker 1: that was the idea of transcendence, where we go be
Speaker 1: owned our physical frame, we go beyond just our limited
Speaker 1: individual identity. We feel a sense of almost like timeless,
Speaker 1: eternal if you want to call it immortal, like connection
Speaker 1: with the energies of the universe. You know, that is
Speaker 1: something that I was very drawn to studied, you know,
Speaker 1: philosophical and scripture kind of ideas on ultimately looked at
Speaker 1: meditation as my pathway towards taking small steps towards like
Speaker 1: advancing towards that boundless you know, kind of top of
Speaker 1: the mountain kind of thing. And then yes, in my book,
Speaker 1: I found that actually speaking with some of the steps
Speaker 1: you've taken to recognize Maslow and some of his you know,
Speaker 1: here here is this very story psychologists deeply loved and
Speaker 1: appreciate and value by the scientific establishment. Having put his
Speaker 1: hand up there and said, like, you know, guys, we
Speaker 1: should be starting transcender and you know, there's something really
Speaker 1: powerful in that human state of consciousness. And then William
Speaker 1: James as well, right, and then you know, I was
Speaker 1: able to knit together also stories from the Puccinis and
Speaker 1: the Einstein's and the Brahms and Tennyson's of the world,
Speaker 1: and then also see transcendence ultimately as being intuitively what
Speaker 1: I think Lincoln and Gandhi and others were seeking to
Speaker 1: manifest in their approach to helping support and serve the world,
Speaker 1: you know, with the nobility of their mission. Anyway, I
Speaker 1: realized that actually there is a fact base, even though
Speaker 1: it's a little bit sort of out there in terms
Speaker 1: of how much science can measure and really create like
Speaker 1: very formal validation for the states of consciousness that transcendence represents.
Speaker 1: Why not talk about it? Why not bring it out
Speaker 1: there in some formal treatments today? Right, So, hey, hats
Speaker 1: off to you for leading that, you know, leading us
Speaker 1: on the path. And I felt more empowered enough to
Speaker 1: right reading a book that et Tener add that last chapter.
Speaker 1: You you did a brilliant job with that last chapter.
Speaker 1: And it just I've been wrestling with the arc of
Speaker 1: your book. It's been it's it's fascinating, and I wondered
Speaker 1: if you could explain to me a little if it
Speaker 1: was intentional where you go from interdominance to inner surrender.
Speaker 1: It seems like that's the arc of the self realization
Speaker 1: journey of your book. Now, how much do you resonate
Speaker 1: with that idea? That's a beautiful thing, you know. I
Speaker 1: hadn't really thought of the arc of the book that way,
Speaker 1: but now that you say it, it really rings true
Speaker 1: to me. Right. It starts off with a quote about
Speaker 1: interdominance from da Vinci, and then it ends on transcendence
Speaker 1: and a whole section on inner surrender. They don't seem
Speaker 1: like that's exactly the same thing, but maybe intermastery kind
Speaker 1: of at the most mature version is inner surrender, not interdominance.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm just to bring this up for
Speaker 1: conversation purposes. I love it, I love it, love it.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be reflecting on that for the rest
Speaker 1: of this week and weekend, and something rich will emerge
Speaker 1: from that reflection. Well, thank you, Scott, But just kind
Speaker 1: of like giving me that kind of frame through which
Speaker 1: to view this, I guess I'll give you one quote
Speaker 1: that just comes to my mind on this, which is
Speaker 1: there's a nun who was deeply engaged in contemplative meditative practices,
Speaker 1: and she wrote in her diary something that later on
Speaker 1: was published after a passing, and she in one of
Speaker 1: the moments, was talking about how she said that, you know,
Speaker 1: I got up at like four am. I really struggled
Speaker 1: for two hours to get my attention and concentration and theorization,
Speaker 1: and then finally the breakthrough came and then after six
Speaker 1: I was able to experience something quite beautiful, you know.
Speaker 1: And then she later on wrote about it. She said
Speaker 1: that these contemplation practices, they're like you being on a
Speaker 1: beach and you're pushing this boat against the sand right
Speaker 1: towards the ocean, so you're having to do a lot
Speaker 1: of push, push, push, and then at some point it
Speaker 1: just starts to float on its own and there's no
Speaker 1: effort needed. So the inner dominion part is the intentional effort,
Speaker 1: full work that is required or us to take ownership
Speaker 1: and to actually expend some effort, you know, and to
Speaker 1: have some struggle in order to get us to a
Speaker 1: more beautiful place. But yes, to your point, the ultimate
Speaker 1: goal or intention in that pursuit is to be in
Speaker 1: the state of flow where it's completely effortless and you
Speaker 1: almost have just surrendered and pulled away all of the
Speaker 1: encumbrances to what is your natural self. That was always there,
Speaker 1: and you don't even have to be effortful about it
Speaker 1: at all. The effort you had to put was just
Speaker 1: in pulling the veilbag. Yes, boom boom. And there's something
Speaker 1: very fascinating seems to happen when you're in the full state,
Speaker 1: and that's that your best self seems to naturally emerge.
Speaker 1: Your highest potential emerges naturally and organically. It's not something
Speaker 1: you need to like, wrestle or dominate. I thought the
Speaker 1: arc of your book was beautiful and the whole book
Speaker 1: is really good, and I recommend my listeners to go
Speaker 1: out and get it and think more about that inner
Speaker 1: work that you can do for yourself no matter what
Speaker 1: your life circumstances that you can't control. Denner, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for being on the Psychology Podcast today. It
Speaker 1: was a real pleasure and honor to have you on. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Scott. Thank you for all the beautiful work
Speaker 1: you do, and all the best to your listeners as
Speaker 1: well and both their in and out of journey towards success.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to react in some way to something
Speaker 1: you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion
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