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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch Just Live weekdays at

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Speaker 1: noon Eastern on Appo, CarPlay.

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Speaker 2: And then Roudoto with the Bloomberg Business app.

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Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch

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Speaker 1: us live on YouTube.

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Speaker 3: New York is a place that Donald Trump may have

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Speaker 3: to spend a whole lot less of time because the

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Speaker 3: trial is about to wrap up. We still have one

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Speaker 3: week to go. Joe, although he's not going to have

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Speaker 3: to be in court every day for the rest of

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Speaker 3: this week, closing arguments on Tuesday as his defense together

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Speaker 3: with the prosecution, which of course was pleading the case

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Speaker 3: on the behalf of a district attorney, Alvin Bragg, who

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Speaker 3: was charged in with thirty four felon accounts of falsifying

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Speaker 3: business records related to the hush money payments. Both the

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Speaker 3: prosecution and defense are done trying to make the arguments.

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Speaker 3: They're not testifying any witnesses. They'll have their final word.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty remarkable to see how quickly we ran

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Speaker 4: through this. And but you know, I thought he was

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Speaker 4: going to start warming up to New York again. I

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Speaker 4: thought staying at the night at Trump Tower. It might

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Speaker 4: be something reinvigorating Fifth Avenue, but I think maybe that's

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Speaker 4: not going to happen. He's back Tomorro A Lago as

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Speaker 4: soon as physically possible, and next week it's going to

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Speaker 4: be something you were there when jury selection began. Imagine

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Speaker 4: the security that will come with the actual verdict being delivered.

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Speaker 4: We're in for some pretty heavy stuff next week. So

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Speaker 4: it's a good opportunity for us to see where we

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Speaker 4: stand now and look at both arguments here both cases.

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Speaker 4: Dave Ehrenberg joins US Palm Beach County State's attorney with

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Speaker 4: his take on this. He's been walking us through the

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Speaker 4: arguments since opening statements. David's great to see you. I

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Speaker 4: wonder your thoughts on the way the defense brought this

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Speaker 4: to a close largely yesterday with the man named Robert Costello,

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Speaker 4: a lawyer on the stand who misbehaved so much during

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Speaker 4: his testimony the judge had to clear the courtroom twice

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Speaker 4: and threatened to strike his entire testimony from the record.

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Speaker 4: Is that the best way to leave a final impression

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Speaker 4: with the jury.

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Speaker 5: No, Joe and Kayley, good to be with you. You know,

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Speaker 5: I wonder why they called Robert Costello to the stand

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Speaker 5: because it was going pretty well for Todd Blanche, Trump's lawyer.

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Speaker 5: Todd Blanch scored some impressive punches against Michael Cohen, and

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Speaker 5: then they decided to call their only substance of witness,

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Speaker 5: Robert Costello. Now, I think the reason why they called

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Speaker 5: him is because Costello has been a darling on the

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Speaker 5: far right, and if you watch far right media, they've

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Speaker 5: been urging Trump's legal team to call Costello because Costello,

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Speaker 5: who tried to be Michael Cohen's lawyer, apparently knew that

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Speaker 5: con was lying and was going to expose him as

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Speaker 5: a liar and a fraud, someone who said that Donald

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Speaker 5: Trump was innocent all along, and.

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Speaker 6: The defense called him.

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Speaker 5: I think it was because Donald Trump, who watches those programs,

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Speaker 5: probably urged his legal team call him, and they did,

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Speaker 5: and it blew up in their face. What a debocle.

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Speaker 5: They wanted Robert Costello. They got Abbot and Costello.

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Speaker 2: It was a joke.

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Speaker 5: They got a guy who was insulting the judge. Hayley's

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Speaker 5: too younger, Remember Abbod and Costello.

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Speaker 6: Joe, we're the.

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Speaker 4: Old guys, so are we? What are you talking about?

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Speaker 5: Got a guy who was insulting the judge who had

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Speaker 5: to clear the core room. And then today he was

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Speaker 5: under cross examination, and there were text messages between Costello

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Speaker 5: and his law partner that pretty much said that Cohen's

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Speaker 5: an a hole and that this guy Coen, we gotta,

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Speaker 5: you know, help the boss. You know, he's he needs

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Speaker 5: to play ball, essentially, and that's so devastating.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so we obviously heard some testimony from Robert Costello,

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Speaker 3: who we did not hear from, though Dave is Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump himself, despite teasing on more than one occasion that

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Speaker 3: he might indeed testify in his own defense, he very

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Speaker 3: clearly did not take the stand before the defense rested today.

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Speaker 3: If ultimately, a lot of this is going to down

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Speaker 3: to the word of Michael Cohen, who, of course the

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Speaker 3: defense tried to paint as an incredible witness considering he's

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Speaker 3: perjured himself before versus the word of Donald Trump, and

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Speaker 3: we didn't hear from Donald Trump. What does his lack

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Speaker 3: of testimony if not surprising due to the case overall,

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Speaker 3: it was.

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Speaker 5: Smart that Trump did not take the stand because if

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Speaker 5: he did, he'd be walking into a perjury trap. If

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Speaker 5: he did, he'd be confronted with really embarrassing details about

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Speaker 5: his affair with Stormy Daniels and others. I mean it

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Speaker 5: would the Egen Carroll case would have been thrown in

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Speaker 5: his face, really bad stuff. And so he listened to

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Speaker 5: his lawyers and he did not take the stand. He

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Speaker 5: was never going to take the stand in this case.

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Speaker 5: But they don't have to. The prosecution has the entire burden,

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Speaker 5: and so the defense didn't even really put on a case.

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Speaker 5: They're just trying to poke holes in the prosecution's case.

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Speaker 5: And they made some headway in poking holes in Michael

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Speaker 5: Cohen's testimony, but in the end, the prosecution built up

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Speaker 5: Michael Cohen with a lot of corrobbery evidence, not just

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Speaker 5: testimony from other witnesses, which were important, but also Trump's

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Speaker 5: own words in his tweets, in his court documents. Documents

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Speaker 5: are much more powerful than any testimony because people can lie,

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Speaker 5: but documents rarely do. And I think that's why this

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Speaker 5: case is headed towards a guilty verdict. Because you may

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Speaker 5: not want to like Michael Colin, you may not believe

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Speaker 5: that he's always telling the truth. But when the prosecution

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Speaker 5: shows you corroboration, it means that Yeah, he's telling the truth.

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Speaker 4: Now, that's really interesting. Dave Arenberg says it will be

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Speaker 4: a guilty verdict. That said, in that world, is this

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Speaker 4: a jury that we'll have to chew on this for

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Speaker 4: a long time? What will deliberations look like?

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Speaker 1: Dave?

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Speaker 5: Wow, the only thing that's predictable about juries is that

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Speaker 5: they are notoriously unpredictable. So what's going to happen behind

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Speaker 5: that closed door? I'll bet you we'll be talking about

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Speaker 5: how the defense's only witness was chewed out by the judge.

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Speaker 5: And although yes, I know the jury wasn't there when

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Speaker 5: Judge Mr Shawn laid into Costello, they felt the vibe

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Speaker 5: in the room. They saw how Costello is muttering under

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Speaker 5: his breath and giving the judge a side eye. And

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Speaker 5: you know that stuff is going to make it in

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Speaker 5: the deliberation room, which will just credit the entire defense strategy,

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Speaker 5: I think, and I think in the end, yeah, it's

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Speaker 5: going to lead towards a guilty verdict. Now, could it

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Speaker 5: be a hungary, sure, but I do not believe there's

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Speaker 5: really any chance that this will be in a quittle

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Speaker 5: So there could be a compromised verdict. Perhaps they convict

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Speaker 5: on some counts and not all, and perhaps they have

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Speaker 5: a hungary on somewhere all but Donald Trump's not walking

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Speaker 5: totally free out of this, not based on what I

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Speaker 5: saw for the past few weeks.

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Speaker 3: Well, we won't know for at least a week longer, Dave,

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Speaker 3: because as Joe and I have mentioned, closing arguments aren't

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Speaker 3: until next Tuesday. Just how unusual is it to have

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Speaker 3: a week long break like this between when they actually

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Speaker 3: rest their cases and when the jury gets to take

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Speaker 3: up the case.

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Speaker 5: It is a bit unusual, but you're running up against

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Speaker 5: the holl calendar and days where the court takes off anyways,

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Speaker 5: and so you know what the Memorial Day. So what

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Speaker 5: they didn't want was to have oral argument, excuse me,

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Speaker 5: closing arguments, and then to send the jury home for

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Speaker 5: the long Memorial Day weekend and then you start deliberating

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Speaker 5: on Monday. You don't want the jury to talk about

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Speaker 5: it with their families, with their friends. You wanted all

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Speaker 5: the conversations to be done in the deliberation room, and

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Speaker 5: you want it right after the closing argument. So it

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Speaker 5: was the right move for the judge to postpone the

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Speaker 5: closing until next weekend.

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Speaker 6: Look, it gives commentators.

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Speaker 5: Like me more of a chance to go on Bloomberg

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Speaker 5: to discuss it.

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Speaker 4: Well, God knows you're not going to be done after

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Speaker 4: this one, Dave, I've got news for you. Can I

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Speaker 4: just clarify, by the way, and I'll apologize in advance

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Speaker 4: to my partner Kayley on this is is there a

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Speaker 4: rule against side eye? The judges Mersehawan is calling out

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Speaker 4: Costello for giving him side eye? How does that work?

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Speaker 4: Dave Ehrenberg, It wasn't.

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Speaker 5: Just side eye. It was that Costello was on the stand.

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Speaker 5: And Costello comes from that right wing echo sphere were

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Speaker 5: or ecosphere or whatever you want to call.

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Speaker 7: It, where they hate Judge Murshon.

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Speaker 5: I think he's corrupt and compromised, And so he took

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Speaker 5: the stand and you can see his disgust on the stand.

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Speaker 5: And when Judge Mrshon was sustaining the prosecution's objections, you

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Speaker 5: had Costello from the witness stand saying things like geez

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Speaker 5: and even saying struck, like like he's the judge the

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Speaker 5: strike things from the record, and the judge was like

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Speaker 5: excuse me, and you had Costell giving him side eye.

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Speaker 5: So it was all of those things. And then after

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Speaker 5: the jury was out of the room when the judge

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Speaker 5: was dressing down Costello. The judge said, are you are

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Speaker 5: you staring me down?

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Speaker 4: Is that what you're doing?

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Speaker 6: And he just kept getting worse from there.

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Speaker 7: Oh, really bad shape.

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Speaker 5: And that's why these judges wear the robes and have

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Speaker 5: the big gabble.

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Speaker 6: You have a stand up when the.

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Speaker 5: Enter of the room because they're in control war room.

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Speaker 3: Just more evidence of how difference this different, this all

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Speaker 3: might feel if we actually saw these things playing.

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Speaker 7: Out on camera, something.

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Speaker 3: In real time. Dave Arenberg is always great to see

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Speaker 3: you on camera and hear your voice for thank those

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Speaker 3: who are listening on Bloomberg Radio. Dave Arenberg, of course,

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Speaker 3: is the state attorney for Palm Beach County. Never a

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Speaker 3: shortage of color in these cases, Joe, But it is

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Speaker 3: worth keeping in mind for the vast majority of Americans,

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Speaker 3: including us, we've only read about what has happened from

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Speaker 3: that room. We did not get to see or hear

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Speaker 3: it for ourselves.

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Speaker 4: That's why I think we need more dramatic readings of

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Speaker 4: what's happening in the court. I think there's a whole industry there.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast kens

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Speaker 1: just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Apple CarPlay and

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Speaker 1: then Roud.

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Speaker 2: Otto with the Bloomberg Business app.

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Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

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Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 3: We're tracking where the money is going in terms of

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Speaker 3: the presidential race because Joe in the month of April

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Speaker 3: more money went to Donald Trump and the RNC than

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Speaker 3: Joe Biden in the DNC. This is a change in

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Speaker 3: the pattern we have seen up until day point in

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Speaker 3: this election cycle. Joe Biden pulls in fifty one million dollars,

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump seventy six million, and that's them and the

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Speaker 3: parties combined.

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Speaker 4: This is important because it's the first time it's happened

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Speaker 4: in this campaign cycle. And I know that everyone's gonna say,

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Speaker 4: but Joe cash on hand, Joe Biden still has an

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Speaker 4: enormous advantage when it comes to money, and that's true.

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Speaker 4: They've been outraising on a campaign level and on a

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Speaker 4: party level almost two to one for the better part

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Speaker 4: of this cycle. But to see this, whether it's an

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Speaker 4: outlier or a turning point is the question, and that's

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Speaker 4: what we want to get into with our panel. Genie

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Speaker 4: Shanzano was with us today Bloomberg Politics contributor of course,

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Speaker 4: a Democratic strategists, joined by Lester Munson, Republican strategist principle

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Speaker 4: at bg R Group. Great to see you both, Lester,

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Speaker 4: how do you read this unless you're going to tell

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Speaker 4: me that we're data dependent? And I understand that you

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Speaker 4: do need a couple of months to realize a trend.

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Speaker 4: But the fact is donors have been warming up to

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump, not the opposite during his criminal trial.

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Speaker 8: Well, I think it's two things. One, it appears Trump

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Speaker 8: has a little bit of a lead in the polls

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Speaker 8: one or two points if you average it out. That

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Speaker 8: helps excite his donor base. Also the fact that he's

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Speaker 8: appears to be being persecuted, if you will, certainly by

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Speaker 8: his supporters, he's perceived as being persecuted, and so they

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Speaker 8: want to come to his aid. And I think the

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Speaker 8: you know, he's really worked this trial in New York

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Speaker 8: to his advantage, whether it's a press conference outside the

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Speaker 8: court room or railing at the judge or you know,

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Speaker 8: the perfidy of Michael Cohen or whatever the little mini

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Speaker 8: drama is, he's turned it into a real opportunity for

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Speaker 8: fundraising here, So I guess we give him some credit

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Speaker 8: for creativity.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, but there also is the consideration that that

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Speaker 3: funding mechanism, at least the ability to stand outside the

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Speaker 3: courthouse and plead your case each and every day, is

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Speaker 3: about to potentially go away. The case is the defense

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Speaker 3: and prosecution rested their cases. We just wait until closing

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Speaker 3: arguments next week and then jury deliberation, and Genie, this

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Speaker 3: may be the only trial that actually happens. All of

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Speaker 3: the other ones are on hold right now, basically and definitely.

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Speaker 3: So by getting rid of a legal headache, potentially, does

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Speaker 3: it open up a new fundraising headache when you lose

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Speaker 3: the opportunity to potentially you have the visuals to pull

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Speaker 3: in more dollars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 9: I mean, I can't believe we're at a point where

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Speaker 9: we're talking about Gosh, isn't a presidential candidate going to

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Speaker 9: miss being under indictment for thirty four felony cops and

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Speaker 9: that trial ends. But you're right, that's where we are.

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Speaker 9: You know, these numbers are important. I was going to

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Speaker 9: be one of those people that said, oh, Joe, but

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Speaker 9: Democrats have more cash on hand, which is true.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, but I'm there.

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Speaker 9: But what I will say is that there is also

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Speaker 9: a regular expectation that this happens, putting aside the trial

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Speaker 9: and everything else, because, of course Donald Trump has just

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Speaker 9: recently got into the nomination, and of course when you

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Speaker 9: get to the nomination it opens up the ability to

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Speaker 9: collect money with the RNC, so he can collect these

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Speaker 9: big checks. So there's other aspects of this. If it

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Speaker 9: becomes a pattern, then that's going to be a problem

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Speaker 9: for the Biden team. But right now they feel pretty

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Speaker 9: good about fundraising. Less so about what Lester mentioned, which

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Speaker 9: is the poll, so that is a problem, But fundraising

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Speaker 9: they feel okay about right now.

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Speaker 4: All right, Well, Genie, let's say it out loud here.

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Speaker 4: Joe Biden's campaign ended April with eighty four and a

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Speaker 4: half million dollars on hand eighty four. Donald Trump's campaign

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Speaker 4: had forty eight million dollars net cash on hand. But

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Speaker 4: we've also talked to your Genie a lot recently about

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Speaker 4: whether money matters, or to the extent to which money

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Speaker 4: will matter in this general election campaign, when the king

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Speaker 4: of earned media is running against Joe Biden. How do

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Speaker 4: you square these two?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, these are two people with one hundred

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Speaker 9: percent name recognition. Donald Trump is the king of earned media,

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Speaker 9: so he's been able to win campaigns having less money.

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Speaker 6: Just look back at twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 9: You know that said, there's a different component here because

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Speaker 9: of course he not only has less money on hand,

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Speaker 9: but he's burning through cash because of his legal challenges,

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Speaker 9: and that is a problem. They also are lagging behind

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Speaker 9: on their ground game. He can with earned media make

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Speaker 9: that up, particularly because we're talking about you know, six

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Speaker 9: to seven states.

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Speaker 6: But it is a problem. So I'm one of those people.

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Speaker 9: Money is not determinative in these things with this kind

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Speaker 9: of name recognition, but it is an asset.

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Speaker 6: So you'd rather have more of it than less.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so you'd rather have more than less. It also

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Speaker 3: just isn't about having it in your possession lesser, but

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Speaker 3: using it effectively. Have we seen either of these campaigns

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Speaker 3: use it effectively so far in the cycle or are

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Speaker 3: they all just hoarding it for the final push later?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 8: Acculle, great question. I you know, I think the real

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Speaker 8: campaign pros look at the burn rate, right, what does

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Speaker 8: it cost you to raise the money? And then are

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Speaker 8: you using it effectively with respect to the polls. Let's

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Speaker 8: Let's give both of these candidate's credit. They won the

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Speaker 8: nominations of their parties. It was a little bit harder,

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Speaker 8: arguably for Trump than Biden. Biden kind of stacked the

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Speaker 8: deck as the incumbent. But they're here, they are, and

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Speaker 8: they were both the nominees last time, so they must

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Speaker 8: be doing something right. I think the question is going

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Speaker 8: to be does Trump need more money this go round

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Speaker 8: than he did four years ago or eight years ago

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Speaker 8: in order to deliver his message of putting the onus

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Speaker 8: on Biden. He failed to do that last time. He

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Speaker 8: was the You know, the election was about Trump in

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Speaker 8: twenty twenty. If he can make the election about Biden

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Speaker 8: this year, then he's probably going to prevail. What does

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Speaker 8: Biden need to make the election about Trump? Probably he's

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Speaker 8: a little bit more than he's raising right now, so

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Speaker 8: he's gonna have to step up his game. But I

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Speaker 8: think that's this This question of the burn rate, are

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Speaker 8: you using the money effectively? Is exactly the right question.

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Speaker 4: We saw the Biden of campaign make a big investment

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Speaker 4: this month, Genie, a fifteen million dollar ad buy. Not

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Speaker 4: just an ad buy, it's a fifteen million dollar spend

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Speaker 4: that will also partially go to organizing on the ground,

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Speaker 4: hiring up in different swing states. Could we be in

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Speaker 4: a world where next month, the next time that we're

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Speaker 4: looking at fundraising for a couple of months down the road,

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Speaker 4: we start seeing the fruits of that spending.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean they hope that they do. Because this

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Speaker 6: is going to be.

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Speaker 9: So focused on these key states, they understand the importance

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Speaker 9: of organizing and because it's going to be so tight

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Speaker 9: in each of these states. I think the Biden team

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Speaker 9: does have a more difficult path for that reason, and

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Speaker 9: also as the incumbent.

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Speaker 6: So it is a good campaign.

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Speaker 9: It has been run well so far, but they come

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Speaker 9: with their deficits, and we see the President with the

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Speaker 9: recent announcement about the bait, trying to change the trajectory

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Speaker 9: because it has been the pull so far that have

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Speaker 9: left them in the position of feeling like they're a

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Speaker 9: bit of the underdog at this point. But I agree

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Speaker 9: with Lester. If Biden can make this about Trump, he's

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Speaker 9: got a better shot. But if Trump can make this

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Speaker 9: about Biden, then Trump has a better shot. The one

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Speaker 9: good thing for Biden is Trump likes to make everything

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Speaker 9: about himself, So you know, what's the likelihood he wants

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Speaker 9: the focus to be on Joe Biden.

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Speaker 3: Well, he may not like the focus that is on

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Speaker 3: his true Social account today for at least one reason,

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Speaker 3: and that is after a video was posted on his

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Speaker 3: true social platform on his account that essentially showed a

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Speaker 3: bunch of newspaper clippings talking about what would happen in

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Speaker 3: a hypothetical Trump victory in twenty twenty four, and under

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Speaker 3: the headline what's next for America, it referred to the

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Speaker 3: creation of a unified Reich. This video was up for

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Speaker 3: about twenty four hours ultimately before it was taken down.

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Speaker 3: Lester the campaign said that it was posted by a

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Speaker 3: staff member while Donald Trump was in court. But does

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Speaker 3: it matter who posted it if it lived out there

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Speaker 3: in the world for a full day.

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Speaker 8: No, it doesn't, Kaylee. Then it's shameful that stuff shouldn't happen.

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Speaker 8: And you know, I'm under the impression that Susie Wilds

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Speaker 8: and Chris Lsovita, who are here to be very good

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Speaker 8: campaign managers, should have better control over the message than

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Speaker 8: to allow something like that to happen. It's that's atrocious.

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Speaker 4: Does the Biden campaign call these out one by one

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Speaker 4: as they happen, Genie, or do you just continue to

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Speaker 4: give the other campaign rope on.

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Speaker 9: This you call them out. I mean, this is a

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Speaker 9: despicable pattern. I couldn't agree more with Lester on this.

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Speaker 9: It shouldn't have happened. But it's not the first and

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Speaker 9: only time. This goes back to Charlottesville, This goes back

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Speaker 9: to the twenty sixteen campaign. This goes back to comments

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Speaker 9: that he made to General Kelly. I mean, the list

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Speaker 9: of anti semitic tropes by the Trump are long, and

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Speaker 9: I hope that Republicans who have been railing against young

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Speaker 9: people for protesting the war, accusing them of being anti

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Speaker 9: Semitic or equally as offended by this video that Trump's

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Speaker 9: campaign put up, whether he was responsible for that or not.

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Speaker 3: All right, Jeanie Shanzeno and Lester Munson our wonderful political

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Speaker 3: panel today. Thank you so much for joining us. Genie

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Speaker 3: of course as a Bloomberg Politics contributor. She's also Senior

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Speaker 3: Democracy Fellow at the Center for the Study of the

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Speaker 3: Presidency in Congress. And Lester Munson is a Republican strategist,

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Speaker 3: as I said, but BGR Group co head of the

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Speaker 3: International Practice and certainly that video which stayed up for

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Speaker 3: a considerable period of time. As I mentioned, Joe getting

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Speaker 3: a lot of attention.

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Speaker 4: To Yeah, to think we were reading about this this

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Speaker 4: morning and it was still there says a lot about

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Speaker 4: the operation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, although we have had reported consistently by us

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Speaker 3: here at Bloomberg and others that the campaign by and

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Speaker 3: large is more organized this time, a lot is more

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Speaker 3: disciplined with the messaging, which raises a question of how

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Speaker 3: something like this would.

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Speaker 4: Have Well, there's a bit of a distraction in over Manhattan.

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Speaker 4: I realized they were in court yesterday. It's not there

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Speaker 4: any longer, but the conversation will continue.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

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Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon Eastern.

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Speaker 2: On Emo CarPlay and then Roudoro with the Bloomberg Business app.

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Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch

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Speaker 1: us live on YouTube from Washington.

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Speaker 4: I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines, and it's pretty remarkable. Kaylee,

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Speaker 4: here we are again talking about the potential for some

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Speaker 4: votes in the capital. Yet no one seems to think

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Speaker 4: these bills are going to become law.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, one of them a border bill that's going to

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Speaker 3: get a vote for the Senate very likely will not

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Speaker 3: get adequate votes to even send it to the House.

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Speaker 3: Then some cryptorelated bills that are very likely to pass

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Speaker 3: in the House that may not go anywhere in the Senate,

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Speaker 3: where there is much more skepticism about the industry overall.

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Speaker 3: We got the chance to speak with Congressman Tom Emmer,

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Speaker 3: who's on the House Mynancial Services Committee, also serves of

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Speaker 3: course as the House Majority whip, who told us yesterday

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Speaker 3: he does think the two crypto pieces of legislation will

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Speaker 3: pass on the House floor. But we also got to

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Speaker 3: talk with him about something else, because just minutes before

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Speaker 3: our conversation, we got the news from the chair of

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Speaker 3: the fdiic Martin Gruenberg, that he would indeed step down

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Speaker 3: once the successor was named. And this was Congressman Emmer's reaction.

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Speaker 10: He should have resigned weeks ago, perhaps years ago, based

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Speaker 10: on the hundreds of pages of report that showed this

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Speaker 10: toxic work environment with sexual harassment and all kinds of

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Speaker 10: awful things with the employees. And yet here he goes again, Hey,

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Speaker 10: I'm going to resign. I'm prepared to do that, but

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Speaker 10: not until we have a successor. Well, guess what, Kaylee,

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Speaker 10: We've got six months left, roughly six or seven months left,

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Speaker 10: Marty Greenberg. Greenberg needs to go yesterday, so he should

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Speaker 10: resign and get out of there.

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Speaker 3: Congressman Tom Memory the House Majority with how do you

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Speaker 3: really feel last night? Not holding back? Joining us now

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Speaker 3: for more on this conversation, and please to say is

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00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 3: Barat Rama Murti. He is formerly Deputy Director of the

440
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 3: National Economic Council, now Senior Advisor for Economic Strategy at

441
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 3: the American Economic Liberties Project, and he is here with

442
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 3: us in our Washington, d C. Studio. So Barat, great

443
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 3: to have you. Welcome back to Bloomberg TV and Radio.

444
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 3: Mister Groomberg, much to the chagrin of Say, Congressman Number

445
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 3: has said he will step down once a successor is

446
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 3: not just named but confirmed. Would you take that job?

447
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 11: Well, I appreciate the offer, but no I had any discussion.

448
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 11: I haven't and there's a lot of good candidates for

449
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 11: that job, but I assume that the White House will

450
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 11: pick one of them. But it's not something I'm interested

451
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 11: in at the moment. I do think it's really important

452
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 11: to take a step back at number one. It's pretty

453
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 11: commonplace for an outgoing chair to say that they will

454
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 11: leave if and when somebody is confirmed for that role,

455
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 11: so that there's a smooth transition there. And when Congress

456
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 11: wants to act quickly, they can act very quickly and

457
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 11: confirm one of a qualified nominee. So it should not

458
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 11: take that long if Senate Republicans cooperate. Number two, I

459
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 11: think it's important to remember that the FDIC is an

460
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 11: extraordinarily important agency in all of this. I remember when

461
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 11: I was in the White House last February during the

462
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 11: Silicon Valley bank situation. The FDIC was critical and making

463
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 11: sure that that issue didn't spiral out into a much

464
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 11: larger problem with the banking system and played a big

465
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 11: role in containing that. So it's important that we get

466
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 11: somebody into that role who's experienced and who has a

467
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 11: strong hand on the till when it comes to financial regulation.

468
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 4: You wonder who would want this job if you read

469
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 4: that report. The current state of the culture of the

470
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 4: workplace cultural alone in this agency is deeply troubled. This

471
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 4: is going to require a fixer. Do you have a

472
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 4: sense of what it would take to repair the problems

473
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 4: that the FDI see?

474
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, Look, I.

475
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 11: Think it is going to take some time. When you

476
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 11: have that type of issue at an agency which employs

477
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 11: hundreds and hundreds of people and where there's clearly some

478
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 11: systemic issues, it's going to take somebody who comes in

479
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 11: and makes it a real focus of theirs to turn

480
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 11: those issues around. It involves sitting down with the employees,

481
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 11: really listening to what the concerns are, putting in measures

482
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 11: that would address those concerns. But it can be fixed,

483
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 11: and I've seen it happen with other agencies that have

484
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 11: had these types of systemic problems that have really improved

485
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 11: over the years.

486
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 3: Well, certainly that effort, I'm sure even now is underway,

487
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 3: even if Marty Greenberg says he's outgoing. There also is

488
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 3: the consideration though, as to what might not happen if

489
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: he does indeed step down, or if we can't get

490
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 3: someone else confirmed in time, which includes Basil three capital

491
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 3: reform for some of the biggest banks that are out there. Obviously,

492
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 3: that is something this administration has been pushing very heavily

493
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: across all of these different regulatory bodies. When it comes

494
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: to the prudential regulators at least, is that realistically going

495
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 3: to happen now that all of this is happening or

496
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: is it time to call time on the end game

497
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 3: of bozzle three.

498
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 11: Look, I think that there's a number of complicating factors

499
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 11: on Basle three. The end of the day, there's a

500
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 11: very strong case for higher capital standards on big financial institutions,

501
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 11: but it takes a lot of coordination across agencies and

502
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 11: these types of issues, along with what's clearly been a

503
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 11: big pushback from the industry and from some folks on

504
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 11: the Hill is going to complicate that timeline. Generally speaking,

505
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 11: not a lot gets done in Washington a few months

506
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 11: before the presidential election, so it wouldn't surprise me if

507
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 11: the resolution of the Basil three issue happens after November.

508
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,239
Speaker 11: But this is another complicating factor in all of that.

509
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 4: We started by talking about the potential for a vote

510
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 4: here on a crypto framework bill. Is this something that

511
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 4: needs to happen because it's going nowhere it seems in

512
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 4: the Senate.

513
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 11: I'd say on crypto there's a pretty strong case for

514
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 11: legislation that does a couple of things. Number one, really

515
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 11: protecting consumers from the kinds of frauds and scams that

516
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 11: are quite frequent in this industry. Based on what we've seen,

517
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 11: and number two, making sure that whatever the use of

518
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 11: these assets, they're not going to spill out into a

519
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 11: broader risk to the financial system, or broadly.

520
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 4: Are we giving enough money to the CFTC to do

521
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 4: this right.

522
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 11: Well, my concern with this bill is that it falls

523
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 11: short on both of those measures, and that a good bill,

524
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 11: I think would be a step forward in terms of

525
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 11: protecting consumers, in terms of addressing any systemic risk that

526
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 11: crypto poses. My concern is that this bill isn't that bill,

527
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 11: and that it'd be good for Congress to go back

528
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 11: to the drawing board and take another crack at this again.

529
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 11: I'm in favor of doing that for the right piece

530
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 11: of legislation. I'm just concerned that this isn't the right approach,

531
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 11: and I think that those concerns are reflected in the Senate.

532
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 12: Well.

533
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 3: What the industry will say is the concerning approach should

534
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 3: be the approach taken by the regulator, specifically the chair

535
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: of the sec Gary Gensler, who is instead, because there

536
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 3: is no existing regulation written by Congress, is trying to

537
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,199
Speaker 3: apply securities law and basically just sue the way to authority.

538
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: Can that status quo stay.

539
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 7: The same no again.

540
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 11: I think that there's a strong case for having some

541
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 11: kind of legislated outcome here. When you have these types

542
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 11: of new technological developments, it makes sense for Congress to

543
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 11: step in and fill in some gaps that may exist

544
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 11: in the current regulatory framework. They need to be very

545
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 11: thoughtful about that. Look, my head goes back to pre

546
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 11: two thousand and eight, where the financial industry came in

547
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,239
Speaker 11: repeatedly from two thousand onwards and said these rules are

548
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 11: too onerous. We need to make it easier to do

549
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 11: subprime lending because it's easy. We've got to get access

550
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 11: to credit for folks. And Congress listened to those industry requests,

551
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 11: and what happened was that we set the conditions for

552
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 11: a financial crisis that put the entire economy into a recession.

553
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 11: We just need to be very, very careful when it

554
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 11: comes to these types of changes to our financial system,

555
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 11: because the risks of getting it wrong are so large.

556
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 4: Spending time with rot Ramamerti, who is working as well

557
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 4: with the groundwork collaborative and addressing the tax code, I

558
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 4: want to ask you about the twenty seventeen tax cuts,

559
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 4: which we're hearing a lot about now, an effort to

560
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 4: be made permanent. Here you're on the other side of

561
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 4: this argument. How do you tell Americans that they're better

562
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 4: off with higher taxes?

563
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 11: Well, I think it's actually quite popular with Americans to

564
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 11: make sure that they're rich and big corporations are paying

565
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 11: more in taxes. And what the Trump tax cuts did

566
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 11: in twenty seventeen, if you recall number one, there was

567
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 11: a massive and permanent cut to the corporate tax rate

568
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 11: from thirty five percent to twenty one percent, and then

569
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 11: there was a series of individual changes like, for example,

570
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 11: increasing the estate tax threshold so fear people pay that

571
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 11: increase are reducing the top tax rate for people making

572
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 11: well over four hundred thousand dollars in income each year.

573
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 11: Those are set to expire in twenty twenty five. The CBO,

574
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 11: the Congressional Budget Office disc did a report that the

575
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 11: cost of extending all of those expiring tax cuts is

576
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 11: four point six trillion dollars and the majority of those

577
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 11: benefits go to higher income household people.

578
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 4: Have an association, though, with those tax cuts and a

579
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 4: strong economy, a very difficult association, I.

580
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 11: Would I would respectfully disagree on that. Do you know

581
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 11: that the single most unpopular moment of the Donald Trump

582
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 11: presidency wasn't when he was trying to go after healthcare.

583
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 11: It wasn't when he was saying crazy statements about COVID.

584
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 11: It was the week before he.

585
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 7: Tried to pass the tax cut and job sect.

586
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 11: And that's because the public really revolted against the idea

587
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 11: that we should be spending trillions of dollars on tax

588
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 11: cuts that primarily go to big corporations.

589
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 9: And the wealthy.

590
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 11: And so when you're setting a poll or there's a

591
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 11: survey research, go look at it, gallop and so on.

592
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 11: He was in the low thirties when it came to

593
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 11: his approval rating at that point in time. And so,

594
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 11: and that's one of the reasons why every single Democrat

595
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 11: in Congress, from the most liberal to the most conservative,

596
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 11: voted happily against that piece of legislation. And so now

597
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 11: we have a chance in twenty twenty five, that's what

598
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 11: this letter is about to take a fresh look at

599
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 11: all of this because a lot of those provisions are

600
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 11: expiring in the Trump tax bill, and so rather than

601
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 11: thinking about which ones are we going to extend, which

602
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 11: ones do we want to modify, we should be looking

603
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 11: at the tax code holistically and say we need to

604
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 11: reverse this decades long trend that we have towards bringing

605
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 11: in less and less revenue. Just one final data point

606
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 11: in all of this. Before the Bush tax cuts in

607
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 11: the two thousands, we were bringing in the federal government

608
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 11: about twenty percent of GDP and tax revenue each year.

609
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 11: After the Bush tax cut and the Trump tax cuts

610
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 11: closer to sixteen percent. And that reduction in revenue by

611
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 11: itself explains why our national debt is growing. And by

612
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 11: the way, a lot of those benefits went to the

613
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 11: very highest income household. So we need to reverse this trend.

614
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 11: And twenty twenty five soar opportunity to do that.

615
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 4: Well, this is going to be a big fight. We'd

616
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 4: like to stay in touch with you, of course, barat

617
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 4: Rama Murdy with us in his post White House life

618
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 4: now senior advisor for Economic Strategy at the American Economic

619
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 4: Liberties Project BROT. Thank you for your insights today, Kayleie.

620
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 4: We're talking as well about an important day in Lower

621
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 4: Manhattan as the defense rests in the Trump trial, and

622
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 4: we want to go to New York where June Grosso

623
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 4: at Bloomberg Law is standing by with her take on

624
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 4: what we learned here today, not a huge change as

625
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 4: the defense wrapped its case here June. Not a huge

626
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 4: change with what we had seen yesterday with Robert Costello,

627
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 4: for instance, But tell us the significance of this moment,

628
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 4: now that we've seen both sides have their say.

629
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 13: Well, I think the prosecution actually made some good points

630
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 13: and did an aggressive cross of Costello. So I don't

631
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 13: know what you know how the jury's viewing it, but

632
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 13: I think one thing that you have to remember is

633
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 13: he's the last witness. The defense put on two witnesses,

634
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 13: and he was really the only witness of substance, and

635
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 13: the jury's going to go home for how many days

636
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 13: now until Tuesday with that on their minds. So I

637
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 13: think the defense sort of went out with a whimper.

638
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 13: But remember, the defense only needs one juror in order

639
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 13: to hang up the jury, and that's probably what they're thinking.

640
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 13: And their whole approach has really been to attack the

641
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 13: credibility of the state star witness, my uncle Cohen. The

642
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 13: state on the prosecution, on the other hand, has been

643
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 13: trying to pump up his testimony and use documents and

644
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 13: texts and other witnesses testimony to.

645
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 6: Back him.

646
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 13: Up today's jury instructions to fight about jury instructions, and

647
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 13: those are really the most important part of a trial,

648
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 13: even though they're not the most interesting for the you know,

649
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 13: for people are who are there, but they're critical, and

650
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 13: especially in this case where there's such a conundrum about

651
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 13: what are the federal or tax or state tax crimes

652
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 13: associated here to make this a felony. So that's really important.

653
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up June, because

654
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 3: things aren't all done and dusted at court today at

655
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: two point fifteen is when this meeting on jury instruction

656
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 3: between the judge and the attorneys is set to happen.

657
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 3: Just what exactly is involved in jury instructions what we

658
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 3: will be looking for.

659
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 13: So jury instructions, So the jury, through the witnesses, saw

660
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 13: the evidence, but how do they apply the evidence? What's

661
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 13: the law that they'll apply the evidence with? And that's

662
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 13: something that the judge is going to give them in

663
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 13: the instructions. It's not going to come from you know,

664
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 13: what they saw at trial. It's going to come from

665
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 13: the judge. So it's very important. And what's going to

666
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 13: what's happening at the charge is each side is going

667
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 13: to try to influence the judge in what the instructions are.

668
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 13: There are standard instructions. The judge might just use standard

669
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 13: instructions in some of these cases, he might use something

670
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 13: that the defense proposes, something that the prosecution proposes, or

671
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 13: a combination of each. But it's really critical. And you know,

672
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 13: in appellate procedure, when there's an appeal, a lot of

673
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 13: times it's reversed based on the jury instructions that were given.

674
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 13: It's always a way for uh, you know, the defense

675
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 13: to attack a verdict is the judge gave the wrong

676
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 13: jury instructions. So in this case, the jury instruction on

677
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 13: what the election crime is connected to the falsifying the

678
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 13: business records to make this a felony is going to

679
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 13: be critical. And everybody knows that. The judge knows that,

680
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 13: and so I'm sure he's going to be very careful

681
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 13: and it's going to be interesting to see what he says,

682
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 13: what he decides.

683
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 4: It's interesting entourage in court today, we've seen you know

684
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 4: who's who of Capitol Hill. We had more members of

685
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 4: Congress there. Eric Schmidt showed up. Ronnie Jackson was there today.

686
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: Yep.

687
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 4: A Kaylee, the former White House doctor now a member

688
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 4: of Congress, Dan Muser, Dale Strong, a few others, but

689
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 4: Joe Piscopo also made his way to the courthouse today June,

690
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 4: and I'm just wondering, well that have any impact on

691
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 4: the jury to see Joe Piscopo at court.

692
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 13: You know, I don't think the jury is really influenced

693
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 13: by who's coming into the court. Unless Milania Trump came

694
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 13: to the courtroom. I think that would be an impact.

695
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 13: Considering what the case is about and her connection to it,

696
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 13: that would be an impact. But I don't think they're

697
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 13: influenced by any of these people that come into the

698
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 13: courtman sit there. I know that the reporters who are

699
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 13: covering the trial are perturbed that these people are coming

700
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 13: in and getting seats when you know they're a lot

701
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 13: of times are waiting online for hours. They get there

702
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 13: at five in the morning or whatever to get seats

703
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 13: because they are only a certain number allocated. Even the

704
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 13: overflow room is overflowing. So I know that the reporters

705
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 13: are not happy about it. I doubt the jurors pay

706
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 13: any attention.

707
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 4: Wow, all right, June Grossel Blomberg lost six pm Eastern

708
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 4: time on Bloomberg Radio. A fascinating day in court once again, Kaylie.

709
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 4: We'll wait for the instructions next.

710
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: Your listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast kens

711
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: just live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and then

712
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 1: roud Oro with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also

713
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 1: listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station,

714
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

715
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 4: One of the other big stories that we're covering today

716
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 4: here on Balance of Power is a new wrinkle on

717
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 4: the US policy in Israel and the very real challenges

718
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 4: domestically politically that Joe Biden is facing here as the

719
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 4: President now calls outrageous the story that we discussed a

720
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 4: bit yesterday, the International Criminal Court working up arrest warrants

721
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 4: for the leaders of Hamas and Israel, including Prime Minister

722
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 4: Benjamin Nett Yahoo at once. Outrageous, says Joe Biden, and

723
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 4: that has become the conventional wisdom. We heard from Secretary

724
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 4: of State Anthony Blincoln earlier. He called the decision to

725
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 4: seek these arrests quote extremely wrong headed, echoing the President.

726
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 4: We heard earlier today on Bloomberg on Bloomberg TV and

727
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 4: Radio from Ron Dermer as we continue this messaging clearly

728
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 4: speaking in this case for the Israeli government. The Israeli

729
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 4: Minister of Strategic Affairs, he's part of the war cabinet.

730
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 4: His reaction to this news, let's hear what he said

731
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 4: on Blooma.

732
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 12: I agree with the President Biden that it was outrageous.

733
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 12: I'd also say that it was dangerous. Why is it

734
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 12: outrageous because they're creating a false symmetry between Israel and Kamas,

735
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 12: and they're basing it on false charges.

736
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 4: Challenging the conventional wisdom today in Washington is a voice

737
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 4: that you've heard before on this program. Writing for Bloomberg Opinion,

738
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 4: Andreas Klouth with a smart column and one that we

739
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 4: should consider. Andreas is with me here, as you can

740
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 4: see on YouTube, at the table, writing if the US

741
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 4: now scorns the it helped to create the nineteen nineties,

742
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 4: it will undermine the international regime of law and order

743
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 4: that it claims to defend. It's great to see you, Andreas.

744
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 4: Thank you for joining me here. Walk me through your

745
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 4: rationale here. Because this is an administration that is specifically

746
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 4: focused on equivalency. That's what Joe Biden said that maybe

747
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 4: if this had come in a different consideration, it would

748
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 4: be a different story. But you're putting Israel and Hamas

749
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 4: on the same stage here.

750
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, and that's very interesting. So you heard in the

751
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 7: sound about just now he used the word symmetry and

752
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 7: you use the word equivalents. You heard that from Jim

753
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 7: Rish in the Senate, you heard that from Biden from Lincoln,

754
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 7: and it's interesting. It is absolutely true, in my opinion,

755
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 7: that the two sets of applications for an arrest warrant

756
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 7: three Hamas, two Israeli are not equivalent morally or illegally.

757
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 7: The interesting thing is that this has become such a

758
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 7: talking point in this news cycle because it's a red herring.

759
00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 7: The prosecutor, Kareem Khan, in no way implied an equivalence.

760
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 7: He did make a decision and that may may have

761
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 7: been a mistake in communicating this news to bungle the

762
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 7: five cases into one announcement, and that gives an opening

763
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 7: to people who will politically defend and this is understandable

764
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 7: that they want that the US wants to back Israel,

765
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 7: which will counter this. And you know, and of course

766
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 7: Hamas was equally offended and rejected at it as well.

767
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 7: So just for equivalents, but that gives him one opening,

768
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 7: and the US is now rejecting this on the basis

769
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,240
Speaker 7: of a if you listen to the press conference yesterday,

770
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 7: a number of confused So sometimes with this argument, sometimes

771
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 7: one another one is does the court even have jurisdiction?

772
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 7: Now it's not equivalent, And everyone needs to remember that

773
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 7: this is an application for an arrest warrant which was

774
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 7: recommended unanimously by a panel of legal experts chosen from

775
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 7: around the world, after enormous body of evidence, and it

776
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 7: now goes to a panel of independent judges to even

777
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 7: become a warrant, and then it will not go to

778
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 7: trial for reasons we can revisit. But if it did

779
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 7: ever come to trial, each of the five would have

780
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 7: a separate case presumed innocence and all of that. And

781
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 7: I'm saying the US has a much larger strategic interest

782
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 7: with a view to being called hypocritical and the global

783
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 7: South with a view to what it stands for, what

784
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 7: it has stood for since World War Two in being

785
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 7: on the side of international law. So whether it's domestic courts,

786
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 7: so you just had another context to domestic law and

787
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 7: order or international you cannot pick and choose. You cannot

788
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 7: be for the rule of law and courts and independence

789
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 7: of the judiciary only when it suits you.

790
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 4: We should have frontloaded this conversation, and you just alluded

791
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 4: to it by the fact that likely no one's going

792
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 4: to be arrested because of these warrants. With that said, though,

793
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 4: it sounds like you're isolating a communications problem here more

794
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,479
Speaker 4: than a procedural or legal one.

795
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 7: I think it is a communications problem. And he was

796
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 7: trying the Kareem Khan, the prosecutor, was trying to He

797
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 7: said explicitly, you know, we have to choose. And this

798
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 7: is the same for the International Court of just As,

799
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 7: a different court in the Hague, and in general for

800
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 7: the organs and bodies of international law. We have to

801
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 7: decide are we going to apply the law equally or not.

802
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 7: By the way, a while back, I wrote a column

803
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 7: the United States is usually not in favor of applying

804
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 7: the law equally, which would apply even to itself.

805
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 4: Nobody complained when they went to arrest Vladimir Putin.

806
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 7: Though, well, for instance, let's go to that that is

807
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 7: very similar. If you take the point of jurisdiction, neither

808
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 7: Ukraine nor Russia is a signatory to the Rome Statute

809
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 7: which established the court. Therefore, that didn't bother the United States,

810
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 7: because here it's in its interest to support the same

811
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 7: court in going after prudent story in building the evidence.

812
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 7: It's a good storyline. But when the US is afraid

813
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 7: that the Court might investigate an American or in this case, Israel,

814
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 7: the Trump administration slapped sanctions on a judge and a

815
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 7: lawyer of the ICC. And there is even a law

816
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 7: passed by Congress called facetiously that the Hague Invasion Act.

817
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 7: If weever bring an American to the Court, and the

818
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 7: Hague will invade and get them out. So you cannot no,

819
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 7: And you mentioned I think in the in the intro,

820
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 7: even the US, in this case the Roman Statute, as

821
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 7: in so many cases of other treaties, was actually the

822
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 7: leader in getting it done. It wanted this and then

823
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 7: decided and got cold feet and says, oh no, no,

824
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 7: they might turn it against us. Well, we only want

825
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 7: it when it suits us, or when it's against other people,

826
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 7: and not against us. And I'm saying that is a

827
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 7: bad look. And so there is more at stake. And

828
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 7: actually I firmly happened to believe. I said the outset

829
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 7: that even though I or not even I believe they're

830
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 7: not equivalent. I think Natanyahu and as Defense Minister, if

831
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,760
Speaker 7: it ever were to go to trial, which it won't,

832
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 7: would be found innocent about that. But why not trust

833
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 7: the court to find that?

834
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is all about optics and a great piece

835
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 4: that I'll point you to from Andreas Kluth on the

836
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 4: Terminal OPI n Go or of course online Bloomberg Opinion.

837
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 4: Andrea's great to see you, great writing and a great

838
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 4: case to make here. Don't be a stranger. Thanks for

839
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 4: listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to

840
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 4: subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, or wherever

841
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 4: you get your podcasts, and you can find us live

842
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 4: every weekday from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg

843
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 4: dot com