1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio, Close 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: your eyes and count to four, he whispered. I felt 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 1: his breath on my cheek. The barrel of the gun 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: was hard and cold against my forehead. I counted, and 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: when I opened my eyes, he was gone. I sat 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: up quickly in bed, gasping, my body soaked with sweat. 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: What the hell was that? It was pitch dark in 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: the room, not even a sliver of the moon to 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: offer some light. Damn, another nightmare. I've been having them 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: for almost two years, during which they had become more 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: and more violent and vivid, and in each I was 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: hunted by an anonymous man with a gun or a knife. 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: I would struggle to recognize him, but he kept his 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: face turned away from me. Then, just as he fined 15 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: my hiding place, I'd wake up with my heart pounding 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: and in trentaline horsing through my legs until they ached 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: that this nightmare was different. In this dream, I was 18 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: a young girl again, probably nine or ten, in my 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: summer pajamas, walking down along hallway hotel hallway. Suddenly the 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: elusive man blocked my path, backed me up against the wall, 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: and pointed a gun at my head. I looked up 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: at him, and I finally saw a space. It was 23 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: a man I hadn't seen since I was a child 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: in Provincetown, Massachusetts. That's Liza Rodman, author of The Babysitter 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: My Summers with a Serial Killer. Liza's story involves not one, 26 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: but two very disturbed people. One well, one is the 27 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: babysitter and the other the other is Liza's own mother. 28 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: Liza spent her childhood toggling between two places. Her family's 29 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: year around home near hacka Mock Swamp in southeastern Massachusetts 30 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: and Provincetown, a village on the extreme tip of Cape Cod. 31 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 32 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 33 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. Tell me about 34 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: the landscape of your childhood, literally the landscape of my childhood. 35 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: It was kind of swampy. We lived in a swamp, 36 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: and um, I don't know if you've ever heard about 37 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,839 Speaker 1: of the Hackamock Swamp, but my childhood home was right 38 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: on the edge of it. Hacka Mack being the Algonquin 39 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 1: name for places where spirits dwell. So that was literally 40 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: the beginning of my life, you know, outside. And you 41 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: know it's interesting too with COVID because I've found that 42 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: that that landscape, that being outside, that's the only way 43 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: I could comfort myself during COVID. So that remains because 44 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: it was the only way I could comfort myself in 45 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: my childhood. So I spent my life outside. You know, 46 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: we had a tremendous amount of freedom in nineteen sixty 47 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 1: three four five, and that went for Provincetown too, so 48 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: you know, we had no supervision. Just in context, we 49 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: had no supervision and we sort of ran the neighborhood. 50 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: No one was really looking after us much. My parents 51 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: were married for the first I think four years of 52 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: my life, and after they divorced. You know, my mother 53 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: was young and she was a single mother, and she 54 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: didn't get a lot of support from him, financial or otherwise. 55 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: And she had a best friend who said, hey, my 56 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: husband and I are building a big, gigantic motel on 57 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: the water in Provincetown on a summer job. Because my 58 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: mother taught school, and didn't take her but a minute 59 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: to say yes, and off we went. At that time, 60 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: I think it was seven. So in the early years, 61 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 1: we stayed local. But from the time I was seven 62 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: on Yes, we went back and forth and could you 63 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: describe to, you know, people listening to this podcast from 64 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: all over the world. Provincetown is a very specific kind 65 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: of place. Provincetown is it's a spit of land that 66 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: runs off the coast and out into a U shape 67 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: almost um to the tip of Cape Cod in Massachusetts. 68 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: And they say it has the finest light for artists 69 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: in the world, and it's always, at least from the 70 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: beginning of the nineteen hundreds, it was an artist community. 71 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: And it has a rich, rich history of um playwrights, 72 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: Eugene O'Neill, poets, fine artists, all congregated there. There was 73 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: a bit of a there was a local flavor of 74 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: Portuguese fishermen, and then there was this these transplants from 75 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: New York, the likes of Stanley Kunits, the poet, who 76 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: had a home there and beautiful gardens there, and so 77 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: they these two factions sort of coexisted for many, many, 78 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: many decades and happily so. So it's an artist community. 79 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: It's a beach community. It's on a sand dune and 80 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: it sort of juts out into the sea. It's some 81 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: of the best beaches you'll ever walk on. Tell me 82 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: about your mother from your childhood. She was angry, so 83 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: I put it, and I'm sure there were lots of 84 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: reasons for that, but I never knew what they were. 85 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: And you know, she died recently and she went to 86 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: her grave with whatever had happened to her. We never 87 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: did find out. Um, But she was pretty, she was funny, 88 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: she was charismatic, she had a wonderful laugh. People liked her. 89 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: But she had a problem with me. I don't know 90 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: whether I look too much like my father or not 91 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: enough like her, or maybe I was too much like her. 92 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: I don't know, but she had a problem with me, 93 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: and and that anger was usually focused on me. But again, 94 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: she was a hard worker. It was such a complicated 95 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: relationship to begin with that. But as a child I 96 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: was afraid of her. I spent most of my time 97 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: hiding from her. How old was she when you were born? 98 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: Good question, And your sister is younger than you, two 99 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: years younger. Her memories. She calls me the rememberer, and 100 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: she's the forgetter, and she was quite a bit younger. 101 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: She has some some sort of tactile memories and you know, 102 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: over the years, we've had a lot of conversations about it. 103 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: Your mother struck me as a complicated figure because she 104 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: had this kind of almost you know, she's beautiful, she's lively, 105 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: she'd go up to anyone and talk to them. She 106 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: kind of had this magic about her in a certain way, 107 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: the way you would describe her. And she was also 108 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: just kind of a disaster as a mother. Mm hmm. 109 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: She really was, I mean in terms of in terms 110 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: of warmth, in terms of I'd love you almost never. 111 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: She really didn't want to be inconvenienced. She was really 112 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: looking for her next good time. And I you know, honestly, 113 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: I think if you were to diagnose her, you could 114 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: one of her her favorite things to do or one 115 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: of her addictions, as I now say, was mean to 116 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: be mean at someone else's expense. There was always was 117 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: always a joke. She always had a funny name for 118 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: you that was just a little bit on the mean side, 119 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,679 Speaker 1: and you felt it. You know, it wasn't It wasn't 120 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: something where you went, oh, did she mean that or not? 121 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: You knew she meant it. Even when she was young. 122 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: She just to tell me about the way she used 123 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: to tease her brother, and it was just something she 124 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. She used to like to make him cry. 125 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: And what was your father likes? I mean, I know 126 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: they split up when you were really quite small, and 127 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: he was kind of not really president, but would show 128 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: up every once in a while, right exactly. He was 129 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: I think, you know, in a lot of ways, he 130 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: was equally unstable. He was a huge personality, and I 131 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: just thought he was carry Grant or you know, uh, 132 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: I used to think he was Clark Gable from Gone 133 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: with the Wind. He was had this big personality and 134 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: very very handsome and funny and grew up in a 135 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: funeral home, so he had all these funny jokes and 136 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: he just found a way to deal with death early on. 137 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: I think it was through humor. And he was very, 138 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: very extroverted, so you know, you wanted to be around him, 139 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: and he was never around and of course, as a 140 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: young girl, you want to be around your dad anyway. 141 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: And he just was a puzzle to me despite his 142 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: absence and distance. Was he more loving than your mother 143 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: in his way? Yes, he was more nurturing. So for instance, 144 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: when I was nineteen, I had a knee surgery and 145 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: I had been um at his house, um for you know, 146 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: I've been thrown out of my house for one reason 147 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: or another, and so I was at his house recovery 148 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: and he was the one to feed the ice chips 149 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: and to give the pain medication and to um just 150 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: sort of make sure I was okay. And that was 151 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: a really that was a new experience for me, either 152 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: one of them. Really. See, your mother never would have 153 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: done that, not in that way. She might have made pasta, 154 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: but she would have said, you know what, get up, 155 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: you're fine. And again, you have to contextualize these things, 156 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: right because in that in that day, it was pull 157 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: yourself up, dust yourself off, and move because we're not 158 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: going to sit around here and talk about what's wrong. 159 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: We're just going to go out and do. And I 160 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: my mother's father was very much like that. So my 161 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: mother was very much like that. So you know, if 162 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: there was, as she said, a nurse I'm not, she wasn't. 163 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: I like the order of that sentence, not i'm not 164 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: a nurse, A nurse i'm not Exactly, it's a finer 165 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: point than it. You know, something that strikes me often 166 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: on this podcast is that especially when whatever the whatever 167 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: the sort of secrets at hand. Are are sort of 168 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: like rooted in childhood that we have a way of 169 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: imagining all children do, imagining that all other families are 170 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: like our family. You know, we don't know, we don't 171 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: know anything different. Really, it's not until we grow up 172 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: and get a little bit of a more wide angle 173 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: of view that we that we begin to see that, oh, actually, 174 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: maybe that was really not good, not good or not 175 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: the way everybody else was being raised. We'll be right back. 176 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: It's the summer of nineteen sixty six and Liza is 177 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: seven years old. She's in Provincetown with her mother and sister. 178 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,959 Speaker 1: Her mother needs to work, which means she also needs babysitters, 179 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: and she's very good at getting them. She'll ask anyone 180 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: to be a babysitter. She doesn't exactly vet them, you know, 181 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: check references. All you need basically is to have a 182 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: pulse and be able to show up. They used to 183 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: call her the babysitter Finder. If you needed one, you 184 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: called her. So she had this whole cadre of young women. 185 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: And oh, we had some terrible babysitters at We had 186 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: car accidents with babysitters. We had babysitters that would cut 187 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: our line us up and cut our nails down to 188 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: the quick until they bled in some cases. And there 189 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: was this little um restaurant next to the hotel and 190 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: they'd send the seven and five year old across to 191 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: get whatever it was, French fries in the vanilla shake, 192 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: and we'd come back with it and they go, we 193 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: didn't want this, and they'd throw it out the window. 194 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: I mean, just crazy people. There are a lot of 195 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: crazy people in Provincetown in those days. There was some 196 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: nice ones, but you know, the drug scene was already entrenched, 197 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: so we had some interesting and and really we would 198 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 1: be left with anybody. I want to say too, because 199 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: I really do know that that landscape of Provincetown, that 200 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: there's something about that town that really feels like it's 201 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: sort of at the edge of the world. I mean, 202 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: it's surrounded by water, and it's the it's the furthest 203 00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: point on Cape Cod, which is already a you know, 204 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: increasingly remote place as you go further and further out, 205 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: and then there's this real town. You know, this kind 206 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: of like ramshackle town, you know, not that small, but 207 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: that is sort of just perched there like there are 208 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: other places in the world like this. Key West is 209 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: a little bit like this, where there is that feeling 210 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: that you can't go any further than that. Yeah, it was. 211 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: It was a definite let it all hang out place. 212 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: And that juxtaposition you're talking about about the ramshackle town 213 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: and the tourist trade was a real two competing forces. 214 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: The locals had been there for generations and they needed 215 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: the summer tourists and they needed the artists. They also 216 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: resented the hell out of it, and for good reason. 217 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: So there was always that tension there, and it was 218 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: just under the surface. And even as a child, you 219 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: wanted to be a local. You wanted to play with 220 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: the local kids. The chef at the restaurant, you know, 221 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: he'd come out to the back door of the restaurant. 222 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: He'd come out and he'd feed us food, and we 223 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: thought it was wonderful to be able to hang out 224 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: with his kids, who would knew where the bike trails were, 225 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: and knew where the dune trails were, and knew where 226 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: the hiding places were, and you know, all of those 227 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: names I still have in my head. He wanted to 228 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: be part of it, and in my case, I was 229 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: really not part of anything. So I really deeply wanted 230 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: to be part of Provincetown and of the kids there 231 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: and the people there. There was a warmth to it 232 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: in the sort of the full time, the year round residents. 233 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: You know. It was transient up against really fixed and warm. 234 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: Frank Gaspar, I don't know if you know who he is, 235 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: but he writes a lot about this. He was he 236 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: grew up there, and he writes about what it was 237 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: like to grow up there, and the mother's talking over 238 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: the pens. Everybody knew what everybody else was doing in town, 239 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: and Frank Gaspar, you smoked that cigarette. I'm going to 240 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: tell your mother. So it was that kind of a 241 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: sense and a feeling of belonging to something that I 242 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: think the locals still cling to there, And I don't 243 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: blame them. I would to. As you're speaking, I'm thinking 244 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: it's essentially like insiders versus outsiders in a certain way, right, 245 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: And if you already feel like an outsider and you're 246 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: a child, you're desperate to belong and get swept up 247 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: into into other lives. Yep. So Liza has already had 248 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: quite the parade of babysitters in the summer of sixty six. 249 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: But one of them is a very charismatic young man 250 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: named Tony Costa, whose mother, Cecilia, works for Liza's mother 251 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: at the motel. I had encountered his mother first. She 252 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: was a chambermaid at the motel, so she was my 253 00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: first friend, and he was her son, and he was 254 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: looking for work, and of course it was a wonderful 255 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: thing for the year round people to have these resorts 256 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: open up, because they it promised them lots of work 257 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: and lots of hours. And how old was Tony when 258 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: you were seven? He was born in so he would 259 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: have been twenty two. So Tony is hired to babysit you. 260 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: He's hired to take the trash, and he ends up 261 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: befriending all of us. He was like a pied piper, 262 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: is how I describe it. And my aunt used to say, 263 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: here comes Tony, and he'd be driving up the long 264 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: driveway to the motel, and we'd scamper out and try 265 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: and get in the truck with him and talk to him. 266 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: And he's loading the trash in the truck and we're 267 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: dancing around with our flip flop, using our towels as capes. 268 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: And um, we just started going with him, and I 269 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: don't remember exactly how we ended up going in the truck, 270 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: but we thought it was a blast to go to 271 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: the dump, and so off we would go, and it 272 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: was great for them because we were somewhere else. He 273 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: had sort of a kind of Italian darkness to him, 274 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: very dark hair, kind of a big nose, but handsome 275 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: and tall, well for me he was. He felt really tall, 276 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: but I think he was about six ft And the 277 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: guys at the front desk used to say he you know, 278 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: he was as strong as a guy as you'd ever 279 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: want or not want to meet in a dark alley. 280 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: He wore glasses, as I remember, and he also had 281 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: a dark beard, and he was often quite tan. And 282 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: I remember his fingers quite well too. M that's interesting, 283 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: what about them, Um, I just remember them. The truck 284 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: that he always drove was the Royal Coachman utility truck 285 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: and it had a shift. And he was a smoker too, 286 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: and I was fascinated with that. So I remember him 287 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: smoking with his fingers. And you know what else is 288 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: funny to this day, I look at the hands of 289 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: people everyone I meet, um, and I'm just making that 290 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: connection now. But anyway, his hand was always on the shift, 291 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: and I was always right there were you know, my 292 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: sister and I in the front seat, on the big 293 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: front seat, so I was always close to that hand. 294 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: So how much time did you spend with Tony over 295 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: the course of that summer? And there were subsequent summers, right, 296 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: I mean he was he became kind of part of 297 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: your Provincetown life for a period of time, exactly, he 298 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: and his mother, and so I mean, I have no 299 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: idea how many times, but many more more than I 300 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: could count. And you know, every time he was around, 301 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: he'd jingle his keys and we'd come running. And plus, 302 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: you know, he used to buy a streets he used 303 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: to take us. You know, he just felt like you 304 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: were sort of you know, the music was going, you know. 305 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: I heard an interview with Paul McCartney recently, and the 306 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: interviewer asked him what happens to you when you're driving 307 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: along and you hear Beatles song? And Paul McCartney said 308 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: two things. I start singing along, and you can I 309 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: dropped right into the studio when we're laying down the tracks, 310 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: and I remember everything we did that day. And so 311 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: that's the way it was. The songs of the nineteen 312 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: sixties were in the front seat of that truck, and 313 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: so we were always singing, We were always laughing, We 314 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: were always you know, up and down that driveway. It 315 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: felt like the wind in your hair. I mean, it 316 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 1: was just a wind blown summer in the city, you know, 317 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: is what it felt like to me. And so we 318 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: went with him pretty frequently, at least a couple of 319 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: times a week when he was dumping trash, we would 320 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: out with this condree of little kids would accompany Tony 321 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: in his truck as he made his rounds to the 322 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: town dumps in p Town and Truro. Tony would take 323 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: them to what he called his secret garden in the 324 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,959 Speaker 1: woods and told Liza she could never tell anyone. Imagine 325 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: how special that must have felt to a seven year old. 326 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,959 Speaker 1: An adult was asking her to keep a secret. Liza, 327 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: of course didn't know this, but Tony and a bunch 328 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: of his friends were burglarizing pharmacies and doctors offices, making 329 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: trips to Boston where they were buying drugs and stashing 330 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: them in the woods. There was all kinds of ways 331 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: that they stashed the drugs in those woods and Tony 332 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: and his whole crew of friends and people all knew 333 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: those drugs were out there, and they also evidently stashed 334 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: them at the Provincetown dump so that when somebody wanted something, 335 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: that's where they went to get it. And they had 336 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: some kind of crazy system of you pay me and 337 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 1: I'll pay you, and I mean, I don't know, and 338 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: I wasn't privy to it, but I've read about it later, 339 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: but at the time as a child, he made it 340 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: feel special to you that he was showing you something 341 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: that was a secret and that and that you mustn't 342 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: tell anyone exactly. But that was See, we were talking 343 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: about a garden in the We had talked a lot 344 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: about a garden because I lived next door to my 345 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: grandfather and my grandfather had this amazing garden. And so 346 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: when Tony said he had a garden, I thought, I 347 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: can relate to this. Here's this grown up boy, and 348 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to impress him with my knowledge. And so 349 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: I started talking gardening with him, and I think that's 350 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: how it happened. He said, I'll show you my garden. 351 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: I have a garden, and I was like, I'm in 352 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,959 Speaker 1: my wheelhouse now because I can impress this guy. And 353 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: I think that's how it happened. And he said, I 354 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: bet you've got to keep it a secret. You can't 355 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: tell anybody. But but the other of thing is this, 356 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: he took everybody and anybody out to that garden. And 357 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: as far as I know, he took his own kids. 358 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: That has no basis in fact. But he took everybody 359 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: out there. And the other weird thing was and and 360 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: this is part of the whole illness, part of what 361 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: was going on. He was quite afraid to go out there, 362 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: and he talked a lot about it after the fact 363 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: in all of the research I did about how he 364 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: was afraid because it's adjacent to a cemetery, and that 365 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: would also make sense as to why he would wait 366 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: till there was someone in the truck to go out there. 367 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: So I think it was quite convoluted and quite I 368 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: don't think his mind was working right, you know. I 369 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: think he was kind of spinning all the time. He 370 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: had young kids. We had three young kids, so things 371 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: were about to take a very dark turn here. Just 372 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: in case you didn't suspect Tony Costa father three de 373 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: facto babysitter of several more, is well let's just wait 374 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: for what comes next. When you're ten, you say that, 375 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: as clear as a bell. You hear his name as 376 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: somehow associated with something very bad that's happened, whatever was 377 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: going on down there, the place was crawling with cops. Yeah, 378 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things I find so interesting 379 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: is what we remember and what we don't. And you know, 380 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: sort of like what we bury, and you know, what 381 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: only comes out years later, and so like you realize 382 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: that something big has happened, and you overhear these little 383 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: snatches of dialogue, you know, that come back to you. 384 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: You overhear the phrase the murdered girls and all cut up. 385 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: But there's nothing in you at that point that's associating 386 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: that with Tony Costa. No, and that look so shocking. 387 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: Never in a million years did I make that association. This, 388 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: what I'm about to recount is going to be pretty 389 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: hard to hear. Tony Costa, though Liza as a child 390 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: doesn't know that it's him, is accused and convicted of 391 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: at least two horrific murders of young women, and is 392 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: a suspect and more. He would become involved with them 393 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: in a romantic way, and then he would kill them. 394 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: He cut up their bodies and did horrific things to 395 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 1: those bodies. I won't get into. A neuroscientist who studies 396 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: the brains of serial killers told Liza years later that 397 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: these guys are so rare and hard to study because 398 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 1: usually they kill themselves. Their brains are gone before they 399 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: can figure out what happened. So when you're, you know, 400 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: ten eleven years old and he's disappeared, do you have 401 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: any kind of narrative for your self? Was like, why 402 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,239 Speaker 1: he's disappeared? No, he was just gone, and you know 403 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: that less. The other thing we need to remember is 404 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,479 Speaker 1: not only was my life transient with people coming in 405 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: and out of it, but provincetowns and graphic transient. And 406 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: my father was gone, my grandparents moved away. It just 407 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 1: wasn't unusual. He did always talk about going, going, going, 408 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: going to California, going, You're going there. He was always 409 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: talking about that. And there was a big connection between 410 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: Hayde Ashbury at the time and Boston Common and Provincetown. 411 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: The young people were all trying to get away, especially 412 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: from a town like Provincetown that probably felt pretty remote 413 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: to them. I remember how remote it it still feels 414 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: remote to me. I don't know how you experienced it, 415 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: but when I go out there, it feels pretty remote. 416 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 417 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: Tony sort of fades away. For Eliza, she doesn't think 418 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: about him, She has no idea what happened. She moves 419 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: on the way kids do, and she grows up. Life happens, 420 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: she gets married, starts a family. She has as little 421 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: to do with her mother as possible. Time speeds up 422 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: as time does, so let's fast forward, oh to about 423 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: the time lies as oldest child, a son is graduating 424 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: from high school. I went back to school to finish 425 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: my bachelor's degree, which I've never been able to finish 426 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: um coming from the family, I came from quite frankly, 427 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: with an anxious mess most of the time. And so 428 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: I went back and I said, I'm gonna do this now. 429 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: While I was doing that, I start of having these dreams, 430 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: and they were very violent, and they were right in 431 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: a row of about six months, and someone was always 432 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: trying to kill me, and with a gun or a 433 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: knife or in the case of the first dream, of 434 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: fireplace poker. And I had always written down my dreams 435 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: always I had always written, and in order to figure 436 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: out what was going on during this time that I 437 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: was keeping a process journal anyway, um, as I was 438 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: reading and writing about different you know, literature and writing 439 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: poems and other things, I decided to start writing them in. 440 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: And when I did that, I noticed the repeat images, 441 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: and all of those repeat images were of my childhood, 442 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: and I kept saying, what is going on? So I 443 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: just kept writing them down, the dreams, the poems. Then 444 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: I had that final It wasn't actually the final dream, 445 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: but it was fine enough because in each one of 446 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: these dreams I couldn't see the face of the man 447 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: in the dream, so whoever was holding the weapon I 448 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: couldn't see. And it became more and more irritating to 449 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: me until the day that I had the dream when 450 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: I was face to face with Tony and that was 451 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: in the Royal Coachman lobby in my dream, and so 452 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: I said, holy sh it, I wonder if this is 453 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 1: what it's about. And that's when I said to my mother, 454 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: did something happen to me that you have not been 455 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: clear about? And that's when she told me. So she 456 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: knew when you said that your mother was able to 457 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: put those pieces together. Both my mother and my aunt 458 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: were there that day, and I had said, I had 459 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: just saw Tony Costa in the dream with a gun 460 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: to my head. What do you know about him? Why 461 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: would I be thinking about that? And she said, well, 462 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: I know he'd be came, you know, a serial killer. 463 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: I know he became a serial killer, as if I 464 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: know he became a doctor or an oncologist or a 465 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: pediatrician and a serial killer. And I just stood there 466 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: and I you know, there's that moment in time when 467 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: something so significant, have such significant information coming your way, 468 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: that everything slows down and just grinds to a halt, 469 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: and you're hearing it and saying, how can how can 470 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: I be hearing this information? And that's what it was like. 471 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: It was like almost like a drug flashback. It just 472 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: slowed right down, and I something said to me, this 473 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: is it, This is it. Until I started researching, and 474 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: of course they all laughed at me, and I just 475 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: kept researching and writing and researching and not really knowing 476 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: I was making a book, but more trying to find 477 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: out what happened to me and what those dreams meant. 478 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: So is is it your sense that on some level 479 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: that you always knew. I always had the images, Danny. 480 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: I always had these images of what had happened in Provincetown, 481 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: and I carried them with me, and I used to 482 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: tell people the story and they would go hu huh, 483 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: you know, almost like when you share too much. And 484 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: so we sort of carried that with us, and we 485 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: would laugh about it because we didn't know, you know, 486 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: this is our childhood, how did yours go? You know, 487 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: my sister has a famous line. She used to say, 488 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, I was at a cocktail party the other night, 489 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: and I was telling some stories from our childhood, and 490 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: other people don't think it's as funny as we do. 491 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: And so, you know, that's how we dealt with it 492 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: with humor, because it was kind of a crazy image 493 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 1: to remember. Why did we remember that? Why did we 494 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: hear about that? We knew something awful had happened, But 495 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: what we did not know was that the same man 496 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: who was driving us around and getting us ice cream 497 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: cones was the man who had committed that. Whatever atrocities 498 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: we had in our heads because we were little, so 499 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: we didn't put a narrative together about it. We were 500 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: in some cases, we were barely reading it. Wasn't until 501 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: I was nine or ten years old that I started 502 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: reading these accounts in the paper and not understanding that 503 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: they had anything to do with Tony. And at the 504 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: time his name was not in the paper either. That's 505 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: important Liza's history was. Tony was of course, much less central, 506 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: much briefer than the relationship she had with her mother. 507 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: Both were damaging, both were indelible, but Liza had been lucky. 508 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: She didn't fit the mold of Tony's victims. She was 509 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: a child, a child of a woman who inflicted greater 510 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: damage on her. As she writes, and here is the 511 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: deepest of those wounds. I have always felt as though 512 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: there was something wrong with me, inherently deep and dirty 513 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: and dark, something unlikable and unfixable and worst of all, unlovable, 514 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: and I believed it. As a result, I spent my 515 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: childhood more afraid of my mother than I was of 516 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: a psychopathic serial killer. And then you go on. Finally, 517 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: when I became a mother, and in spite of my fear, 518 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: I was able to stop what had been generations of 519 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: physical abuse. It ended with me mm hmm, And it 520 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: did in family secrets. I think, like every guest of 521 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: mine to a person would say this ends with me. 522 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: I think it's self selecting. People who are willing to 523 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: have this conversation in such a public a forum. Are 524 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: people who have come to a place of the way 525 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: that I make meaning of this is to completely change 526 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: the narrative. I think that's so important, the way that 527 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: I make meaning of this. This is not a subject 528 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: we can sweep under the rug anymore. That these kinds 529 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: of people are out there and they're not well, and 530 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: we need to find some kind of system whereby we 531 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: put back together our mental health system because we can 532 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: prevent some of this. You know, in California they're screening 533 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: children for trauma early trauma now under the new Attorney General. 534 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: You know, they need to do that in this country 535 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: in order to save some of these kids. Because I 536 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 1: just clawed my way out and I've spent most of 537 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: my life in therapy. But you know, I think the 538 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: willingness to talk about it is kind of a double 539 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: edged sword when I'm doing it anyway, because I had to, 540 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: because I couldn't not. Why does it feel like a 541 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: double edged sword to you? Well, because it's exposing yourself, right, 542 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: because in order to do it, your vulnerabilities have to 543 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: get known to other people. I guess there's a certain 544 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: amount of shame that goes with it until you realize 545 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: it's not you. It's not you, it's other people, and 546 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's a difficult transition to make. So 547 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: I think it's a double edged sword coming out and 548 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: talking about it. Believe me, there are people who are 549 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: not happy that have done this. But that's too bad 550 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: because it's given me a new freedom and I'll take it. 551 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Media. Dylan 552 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 1: Fagin and Bethan Macaluso are the executive producers. Andrew Howard 553 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: is our audio editor. If you have a secret you'd 554 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: like to share, leave us a voicemail and your story 555 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: could appear on an upcoming bonus episode. Our number is 556 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 1: one secret zero. That's secret and then the number zero. 557 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Danny Writer, 558 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: Facebook at facebook dot com slash Family Secrets Pod, and 559 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: Twitter at fami Secret Spot. And if you want to 560 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: know about my family's great that inspired this podcast, check 561 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: out my New York Times bestselling memoir Inheritance. For more 562 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 563 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.