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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Christian

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Speaker 1: Seger Robert Our. Last episode, we were talking about samurai swords,

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Speaker 1: and I neglected to bring up one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: aspects of that historical Japanese culture sort of tied into

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Speaker 1: samurai swords. Do you remember ever seeing a net suke before.

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Speaker 1: They're these little carved objects that would be in different

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Speaker 1: shapes and you would use them. Essentially they had like

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Speaker 1: a hole through them that you would use to tie

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Speaker 1: strings like for purses and things like that, that you

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Speaker 1: would hang from a sash or belt. Yeah. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: believe I've seen the Yeah, I've got one that's like

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Speaker 1: a little cat. It's an anthropomorphic cat that's wearing a

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Speaker 1: robe and it's supposed to be like a mythical figure

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Speaker 1: of this sort of like cat creature transforming itself so

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Speaker 1: it looks like a woman in tricking people. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: I got this at the pbody ESX Museum in Salem, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: They have this amazing uh collection of Asian artifacts but

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Speaker 1: also just marines stuff. Basically, the gist is that um

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Speaker 1: sailors who are from the area would bring all of

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Speaker 1: these things back after their journeys around the world, and

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Speaker 1: they eventually went into the PVD SX Museum, so you

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Speaker 1: can see all of this really cool historical material there.

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Speaker 1: But I had this net suk. It sits on my

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Speaker 1: desk as I'm working on episodes like this one, and

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Speaker 1: I kind of wonder, like, is there something inherently weird

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Speaker 1: about me, you know, uh, fetishizing this and it mind's

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Speaker 1: not a historical and that's okay. It's like a mass

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Speaker 1: produced one that you get at the gift shop or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But there's something kind of odd about me incorporating that

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Speaker 1: into my I don't know, artistic aesthetic my setup of

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Speaker 1: my desk, right, you know, it's next to literally a

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Speaker 1: a plastic sculpture of a Xeno morph that ec Steiner

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Speaker 1: gave me for my birthday, you know, so it's like

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Speaker 1: it's not like I'm only into Japanese historical aesthetics. Well,

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Speaker 1: this this is an interesting question because I mean, obviously

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the idea of cultural appropriation today and

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Speaker 1: I think we're more and more, uh, we're we're forced

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Speaker 1: to ask these questions about our lives and the things

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Speaker 1: in our lives, the physical objects as well with the ideas.

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Speaker 1: I like what you said about the sailors enturing out

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Speaker 1: into the world and returning home with these essentially knickknacks

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Speaker 1: and uh and and artifacts. And I mean our lives

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Speaker 1: are kind of like that. We we travel around, we

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Speaker 1: experience new places, new ideas, and we end up incorporating

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Speaker 1: those ideas into our own worldview, into our own sense

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Speaker 1: of self. We end up bringing um artifacts into our home,

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Speaker 1: and our homes become reflections of our of our interest

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Speaker 1: and our travels and our experience. Yeah. Yeah, and that's

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Speaker 1: how I think about it. I don't just like, it's

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Speaker 1: not like a just collection of random items that I

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Speaker 1: just throw on my desk or something, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, although you know, obviously there's certain things that

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Speaker 1: I will that stay on the desk and other things

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Speaker 1: that go in a box somewhere. But yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's strange. Like the alien for some reason is fine

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Speaker 1: because that's like American culture, But there's or is it

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Speaker 1: Swiss culture, right exactly? That's true based on our our

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Speaker 1: Hans Rudy Geeker episode. There's also I have a statue

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Speaker 1: of Ganesh on my desk as well of the Hindu

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Speaker 1: god of removing obstacles. Well, I have I have a

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Speaker 1: goodesh in my pocket. I forgot about that. I always

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Speaker 1: always carry a ges with me. So we're kind of

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Speaker 1: laying out some of the details of our own um, our,

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Speaker 1: own homes, our own sense of selves self. And I

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Speaker 1: imagine everyone listening you're probably doing the same thing. You're

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Speaker 1: thinking about, all right, what what items are on my person,

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Speaker 1: are in my house and just in my mind? And

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Speaker 1: from what cultures do those things arise? Yeah, and there's

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Speaker 1: probably some of you two who are having a reflex

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Speaker 1: that I think is pretty common in Western culture, which

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Speaker 1: is like, well, what would be wrong about that? You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's sort of an immediate defensiveness, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk a little bit about that today as well. Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, basically, we're looking at cultural appropriation and then

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Speaker 1: we're gonna look at examples that are positive and negative

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Speaker 1: of it, but then look at the arguments for and

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Speaker 1: against it, because there's been plenty, Like, let me tell you,

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Speaker 1: this is an episode that there was uh no lack

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Speaker 1: of research. There was plenty of stuff out there to

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Speaker 1: incorporate into the literature. And at the end of this episode,

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Speaker 1: we are not going to have This is not one

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Speaker 1: of those episodes where we're gonna have a you know,

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Speaker 1: a bullet list of what something is. We're hopefully going

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Speaker 1: to provide you with some additional tools to evaluate, uh,

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Speaker 1: your own life, your own sense of culture, to know

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Speaker 1: what sort of the arguments are on both sides. We

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Speaker 1: are also not going to do an exhaustive examination of

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Speaker 1: every form of alleged cultural appropriation out there, because I mean,

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Speaker 1: you get into say, the music genre, the fashion genre,

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Speaker 1: and there's so many different examples that pop up, and

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Speaker 1: many of them are specialized, and they had their their

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Speaker 1: arguments on both sides in many cases. I can think

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Speaker 1: of one example off the top of my head that

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Speaker 1: I came up in a bunch of the articles, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't include it here. The singer Selena Gomez apparently

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Speaker 1: wore a bindy at one point like a music video

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Speaker 1: or maybe a live performance or something like that, and

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Speaker 1: she was criticized for it. I was just like, I

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Speaker 1: don't feel like this really fits into the discussion that

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Speaker 1: Robert and I are going to have. That is probably

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Speaker 1: for some of you, like one of the first examples

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Speaker 1: that comes to mind, right like Likewise, I don't think

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk a whole lot about hip hop

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Speaker 1: culture and it's uh and and it's and and how

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Speaker 1: it is treated in an American culture, but that certainly

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Speaker 1: is a huge area of discussion as well. Now, I

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Speaker 1: guess the first thing we need to do is just

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Speaker 1: say what is cultural appropriation? And that really that really

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Speaker 1: splits into two questions. Here, what what is cultural appropriation?

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Speaker 1: And then what does it consists of? So the first

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Speaker 1: question is a little easier broadly, and I mean broadly speaking,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the adoption or use of the elements

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Speaker 1: of one culture by members of another culture. But of

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Speaker 1: course that that again, that's extremely broad because this sort

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Speaker 1: of cultural exchange has been going on as long as

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Speaker 1: human society has experienced a convergence of cultures. Uh, the

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Speaker 1: cats kind of out of the bag in terms of

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Speaker 1: keeping most global cultures entirely pure for a variety of reasons. Now,

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Speaker 1: we'll get on into a lot of this as we progress,

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Speaker 1: but it should come as no surprise that there are

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Speaker 1: plenty of vantage of individuals out there who prefer the

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Speaker 1: term cultural misappropriation. So it's not merely the fact that

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Speaker 1: one culture is adopting or using elements of another culture.

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Speaker 1: It's that they're doing so in a way that is

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Speaker 1: dishonest or harmful, insensitive or crass, or plays on some

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Speaker 1: some larger inequity. Yeah, there were actually arguments made in

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Speaker 1: some of the articles that I read for this that

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Speaker 1: essentially we're like, there's a linguistic problem at hand. Here

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Speaker 1: are semantics issue that cultural appropriation is the term we're

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Speaker 1: all using for this thing, but misappropriation might be better. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because if you you often hear it just thrown out like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's cultural misappropriation, that's like that's a sin stop it,

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Speaker 1: where whereas there's obviously going to be a lot more

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Speaker 1: nuance at play. Yeah, if you just look at like

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Speaker 1: the Salem Encyclopedia, it's entry on cultural appropriation says that

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Speaker 1: it is quote the lifting of aspects of one culture

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Speaker 1: or society for use by another culture. Pretty close to

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Speaker 1: what you just said. This can be anything from art

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Speaker 1: to music, fashion, etcetera. Sometimes the intermingling creates highly regarded

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Speaker 1: new pieces of work, though right and regardless, some argue

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Speaker 1: that the adoption of their culture by outsiders is seen

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Speaker 1: as disrespectful and offensive, so sometimes it's actually defined as

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Speaker 1: quote the use of works of indigenous people's by non

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Speaker 1: indigenous people, so there's a little bit of a distinction there.

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Speaker 1: The concept actually emerged in academia in the late nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventies and nineteen eighties, and it was a critique of colonialism,

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Speaker 1: so you can see why it applies, for instance, to

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Speaker 1: our Western society, American society, or British colonized society. But

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Speaker 1: by the nineteen nineties it had a solid place in

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Speaker 1: academic discourse, and I can say when I studied for

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Speaker 1: my master's degree between two thousand and six and two thousand,

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Speaker 1: it was a significant part of the literature for rhetoric,

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Speaker 1: cultural studies, and communication. I mean every class I was

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Speaker 1: in there was at least a section on cultural appropriation

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Speaker 1: and how it fit into the theories and discourse around

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Speaker 1: those ideas. Now, I think one way to help us

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Speaker 1: get started here is to keep in mind, what is

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Speaker 1: culture right? Like that alone is a really hard question

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Speaker 1: to answer in my mind. When I'm usually just talking

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Speaker 1: about culture casually or on one of these shows, if

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Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of research in front of me,

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about culture as how people make sense of

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Speaker 1: the world. There's too much of a cacophony of sensory

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Speaker 1: information going on for us as human beings to make

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Speaker 1: sense of There's so much happening our brains literally can't

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Speaker 1: keep up. So culture is how we understand all of

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Speaker 1: this stuff. Is basically like a filter, right uh. And

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Speaker 1: obviously it's way more complicated than that. But some people

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Speaker 1: will say, well, culture is norms or social behavior, or materialism,

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Speaker 1: or politics, or customs and traditions. But let's not forget

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Speaker 1: there's also subcultures as well that exists within larger umbrella ones.

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Speaker 1: The main one that I always think, well, you just

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Speaker 1: brought up hip hop. Hip hop is a good example

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Speaker 1: of the subculture, but I think of punk is a

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Speaker 1: subculture that exists within what dain culture, right uh. And

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Speaker 1: then the dictionary says culture is quote the way of life,

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Speaker 1: especially the general customs and beliefs of a particular group

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Speaker 1: of people at a particular time. In general, it's used

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Speaker 1: to refer to our use of symbols to represent our experiences,

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Speaker 1: but done in a creative way. Yeah, this is one

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Speaker 1: of those areas where I often come back to this,

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Speaker 1: this analogy I keep rolling out of lenses and uh.

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Speaker 1: And while it's it's easy, it's easy to think that

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Speaker 1: our view of reality is completely unfiltered by by anything.

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Speaker 1: Or we might think, oh, I'm seeing reality through a

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Speaker 1: single lens, you know, a single pane of glass that

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Speaker 1: that comes down over my space helmet. But I feel

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Speaker 1: that all of us have multiple lenses that are employed, uh,

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Speaker 1: many at the same time, and then in various combinations.

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Speaker 1: And and so when you try and yeah, when you

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Speaker 1: try and boil down what is this culture, you end

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Speaker 1: up countering not one lens, but several, and some of

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Speaker 1: them may not be employed at all times. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: a really interesting way to look at it. And I

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Speaker 1: think too, And I'll get into this, we'll talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit later about a guy named Gert Hofstad and

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Speaker 1: his sort of cultural theories. Uh. But I think that

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Speaker 1: is the best way to keep this in mind, that

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Speaker 1: your analogy of lenses essentially is that like, different people

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Speaker 1: have their different lenses on, right, and they're not always

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Speaker 1: seeing the same thing. They're understanding those symbols through different experiences. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's important for understanding how we're viewing the world,

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Speaker 1: but also how another individual is looking at the same topic.

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Speaker 1: And that's key to this whole entire discussion because it's

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Speaker 1: there's the aspect of how am I interacting with a

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Speaker 1: cultural idea or an artifact? But then how was another

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Speaker 1: person looking at that? And then and then how are

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Speaker 1: we supposed to have a conversation about it? Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: the inherent problem in human communication, is that there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a misunderstanding no matter what. There's always what's

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Speaker 1: like referred to as psychological noise is in verbal communication. Right,

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Speaker 1: we're not telepaths, We're not beaming our thoughts directly into

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Speaker 1: somebody else's head. But through words and the use of

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Speaker 1: other symbols, we're trying to convey meaning back and forth

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Speaker 1: to each other. It's just that our way of understanding

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Speaker 1: that meaning is vastly different, especially depending on what kind

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Speaker 1: of culture you were raised in. All Right, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: take a quick break, and when we come back, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna jump into some examples of sort of positive cultural appropriation,

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Speaker 1: definite negative examples of cultural appropriation or cultural misappropriation, as

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Speaker 1: well as the the ever cantalizing gray areas. Thank Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're back. So before we get into positive and negative

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Speaker 1: examples of cultural appropriation here, I actually have one that

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Speaker 1: I'm concerned about for myself. It's something that I'm working on.

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Speaker 1: Most of our listeners now that I work on. Well,

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Speaker 1: both of us do we both do fiction outside of

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I do comics. You do short fiction. Uh, well,

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Speaker 1: you've you've written long fiction too, right, Yeah, the short

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Speaker 1: stuff is the main the main material that is out

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Speaker 1: there though, and and of course that that means something.

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Speaker 1: With both of our work, we're talking about multiple characters,

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Speaker 1: multiple voices, and the characters of varying um ethnicities, cultural backgrounds, etcetera. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I mentioned this actually in the Samurai Saw It episode.

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Speaker 1: I'm working on this project right now, and basically I

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Speaker 1: recognize that the diversity of race, gender, sexuality, nationality, and

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Speaker 1: age really needs to improve in modern fiction, especially if

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Speaker 1: we want our culture these artifacts to represent the world

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Speaker 1: that we live in. This is kind of tricky for

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Speaker 1: a straight white, middle aged guy like me. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: I'm working on a news story that's a sci fi story.

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Speaker 1: It's set in Trinidad and the majority of the characters

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Speaker 1: are black. It's also going to incorporate elements of Japanese

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Speaker 1: culture into it, including the samurai ethos that we're referring

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Speaker 1: to in that other episoisode. So I'm trying to write

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Speaker 1: this thing, and I want to address themes of class

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Speaker 1: and race and violence in it. But I genuinely wonder

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Speaker 1: am I appropriating somebody else's culture here? Right? Like? This

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Speaker 1: is a tricky tightrope. Should I stick to only what

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Speaker 1: I know? Should my characters only be white, an American

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Speaker 1: and male? Right? Or should I try to improve diversity

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Speaker 1: leading by example through my storytelling. I don't know. It's

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Speaker 1: something I like, I genuinely worry about. I've done stuff

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Speaker 1: in the past, um where I've had characters of diversity

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Speaker 1: that I've made the focal point of my work, and

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Speaker 1: other stuff I've written have been from characters who are,

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Speaker 1: you know, essentially variations of meat. Yeah. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is always a quandary as as a writer, as as

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Speaker 1: a creator, probably of any form, because there certainly are

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Speaker 1: voices that insist that say, an African American perspective should

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Speaker 1: not be approached from from a non African American writer.

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Speaker 1: So is a writer, then, you know, forced to exist

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Speaker 1: within the confines of their own cold sure? And if so,

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Speaker 1: how far does it go? Can Stephen King right about

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Speaker 1: a Southerner. Did did Tennessee raised Coleman McCarthy appropriate the

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Speaker 1: cultures of Mexico and the American West when he moved

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Speaker 1: out there and started to write westerns. Uh yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is this is the kind of way that I think

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Speaker 1: that the modern writer's mind especially continues to eat away

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Speaker 1: as yourself. You know, it's like a dog gnawing its

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Speaker 1: own tail, your second guessing all of your creative choices.

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Speaker 1: But but I have to I have to say from

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Speaker 1: my own part, like when when I've written, say, I

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Speaker 1: wrote about a biracial character in one of my Grave

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Speaker 1: Stoppers tales and it was a it was a slide

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Speaker 1: homage to Joe Christmas and Faulkner's Light in August. But

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Speaker 1: and personally, I always approach a character like that as

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Speaker 1: an attempt to understand another viewpoint, uh, you know, to

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Speaker 1: to respectfully understand how they are viewing the world, what

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Speaker 1: their worldview consists of, and and you know, and putting

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Speaker 1: in some research as well, like looking at at authentic

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Speaker 1: voices from those realm is to try and create it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of the exercise. What what you

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Speaker 1: don't want to do in My opinion is to is

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Speaker 1: to sort of go the the old school pro wrestling,

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Speaker 1: you know, root where someone is is nothing more than

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Speaker 1: the archetype. There's nothing more than the stereotype character, and

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Speaker 1: that's all they are, right. Yeah, that's a really good example.

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Speaker 1: Um the like sort of wrestling characters from like the eighties.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking of like the Iron Cheek here, and that

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Speaker 1: guy is kind of still performing that personality, Like have

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Speaker 1: you ever seen the Iron Cheeks Twitter feed? That's pretty wild.

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Speaker 1: I understand there's some disagreement on to what extent that

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Speaker 1: is him or people who handle it for him, So

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that, but I don't know a lot

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Speaker 1: of detail about about that argument. But to Glow on

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Speaker 1: Netflix is a is a big right now, and that

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Speaker 1: that discusses some similar territory. Yeah, And Glow is fascinating

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Speaker 1: because you see these women come in in the first

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Speaker 1: couple episodes and they have all of these different backgrounds, right,

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Speaker 1: but they are essentially coming to the same project, Like

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Speaker 1: what on earth is this? Like they've all got this

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Speaker 1: like what we're gonna be female wrestlers? Huh. But then

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Speaker 1: the characters that are created for them are totally two dimensional.

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Speaker 1: And kind of grotesque. Um. Yeah, And so like, when

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about these projects, I think, well, diversity should

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Speaker 1: be improved behind the scenes as well. Right, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: just make up for a lack of diversity to have

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Speaker 1: white people appropriating culture there. There should be more creators

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Speaker 1: of diversity given a platform. And I was trying to

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Speaker 1: think of recent like examples to do like a uh

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Speaker 1: compare and contrast here, And the two that came up

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Speaker 1: for me was I just started watching the American Gods

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Speaker 1: TV show that's based on that Neil game and novel,

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Speaker 1: and it really attempts to tackle the African American experience.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's based on a book

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Speaker 1: by a white Englishman and it's adapted by a white American.

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Speaker 1: Then I think of a show like Atlanta, which we

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Speaker 1: talked about in this Ironically we talked about Atlanta in

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Speaker 1: the in the Samurai storied episode. Uh, that is written

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Speaker 1: and run by a majority of African Americans. Is one

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Speaker 1: necessarily better than the other? Is one more authentic than

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Speaker 1: the other? They both. As I'm watching them, I'm getting

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Speaker 1: different things out of them, and I'm enjoying the experience

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Speaker 1: and maybe listeners out there who are engaged in creative

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Speaker 1: projects to have this floating in the back of their head,

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Speaker 1: like what am I allowed to engage with? Yeah, alright, well,

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Speaker 1: let's let's continue to discussion then by discussing some some

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Speaker 1: some first of all clear positive examples or or what

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm presenting as a as a positive example. So

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Speaker 1: one that came to mind instantly is British British singer

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Speaker 1: of Swiss and Greek heritage, Cat Stevens. He famously converted

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Speaker 1: to Islam and uh and became use of Islam. Now,

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Speaker 1: clearly this is a case of an individual entering into

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Speaker 1: another culture's customs and religious worldview with with clear permission

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Speaker 1: to do so. As with Christianity and Buddhism, Islam is

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Speaker 1: a missionary religion with a clear mandate to bring other

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Speaker 1: people's into the faith. Everyone, it is said, our our

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Speaker 1: Muslim at birth. So actually, one of the pieces that

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Speaker 1: I turned to for research on this was in the

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Speaker 1: Atlantic and it was by an author named Jenny Avans,

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Speaker 1: and she argued that without cultural appropriation, we wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: the following things. These are positive examples. New York pizza,

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Speaker 1: Japanese Denim. I didn't know that was a thing. Uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't either reading what she was talking about. Apparently

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Speaker 1: it's an older style of denim may democratic discourse. That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense like democratic discourse came from Greece, but

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Speaker 1: here in America we've sort of assumed that it's like

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Speaker 1: our thing, right, you know. Uh, and then from the

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Speaker 1: Atlantic as well. Connor Freedersdorf also had an interesting interview,

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Speaker 1: and he provided the following examples. Imagine a Korean food

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Speaker 1: truck owner who puts beef bulgogie in a burrito. Are

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Speaker 1: they appropriating Mexican culinary culture? Or a malays Asian housewife

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Speaker 1: who rents a kimono when they're on holiday in Kyoto?

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Speaker 1: Is that appropriating traditional Japanese dress? Or a Canadian who

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Speaker 1: writes a novel that's inspired by Cervantes, they're technically appropriating

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Speaker 1: Spanish literary culture. Or an Irish American who sings opera

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Speaker 1: for a living they're benefiting from the world's appropriation of

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Speaker 1: Italian art. So there's a lot of complication here, right.

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Speaker 1: It's not as easy as just pointing at Selena Gomez

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Speaker 1: or Miley Cyrus or somebody and saying stop doing that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean the culinary example. Um, I'm glad you brought

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Speaker 1: it that up, because I was I was turning a

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Speaker 1: number of these around it in my mind, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: what about the Portuguese influence on Thai cuisine, you know,

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Speaker 1: the incorporation of of peppers for instance, Or a better,

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Speaker 1: more clear cut example, I suppose would be the French

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Speaker 1: influence on Vietnamese cuisine, because there you have an even clearer, uh,

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Speaker 1: colonial influence. And of course this leads to an important

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Speaker 1: detail in charges of cultural misappropriation. It's it's usually the

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Speaker 1: superior power, the colonial force, that is charged with misappropriating something,

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Speaker 1: and the reasons should be obvious. I mean, for instance,

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Speaker 1: if you're if you're a population of Africans transposed to

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Speaker 1: to a Caribbean island, and you incorporate aspects of the

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Speaker 1: colonial and local culture under your own practices, I mean

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Speaker 1: that survival that falls in line with a lot of

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about in our Cargo Cults episode. But

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Speaker 1: when the colonist appropriates the culture of subjugated people, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's that's where it gets a lot ickier or potentially ickier. Right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm seeing that as like definitely like a

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Speaker 1: hallmark for these cases that are brought up with outrage, right,

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Speaker 1: is that usually it's if somebody who is from a

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Speaker 1: colonial culture is appropriate again indigenous versus non indigenous. Um.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite books of all time is a

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Speaker 1: graphic novel called Pride of Baghdad. It's about lions that

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Speaker 1: escape the zoo after the Americans bomb Baghdad in two

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Speaker 1: thousand three, and the lions, or of the story, they

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Speaker 1: essentially become symbols for us to see different versions of

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Speaker 1: the war through. It's written by Brian K. Vaughan, is

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Speaker 1: drawn by Nico Henrikin. Neither of them are Iraqi, but

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Speaker 1: this modern folk tale really made me think about the

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Speaker 1: Iraqi experience differently. I think about, uh, this is a

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Speaker 1: non colonial example Japanese post rock bands I like Mono

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Speaker 1: and the band Boris. Uh. These musicians adapt Western styles

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Speaker 1: of rock. They come up with something that's totally new

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Speaker 1: and kind of wonderful in the process. I'd never dream

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Speaker 1: of referring to Boris as cultural appropriation, right, but arguably

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Speaker 1: it is. It's just because Japan is not a colonizer

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Speaker 1: of the United States, we don't really think of it

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Speaker 1: that way. In fact, part of why I think I

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Speaker 1: like it so much is the multiculturalism to it. And

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Speaker 1: I think we'd be remiss if we didn't recognize. One

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Speaker 1: of the major examples that comes up over and over

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Speaker 1: again the literature is that white people have been accused

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Speaker 1: of appropriating rock from African American culture. Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: you and I were trying to we were talking earlier

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Speaker 1: before we went on air, like, what's a great positive

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Speaker 1: example of the sort of colonizer, white vanilla guy really

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Speaker 1: doing a great job representing another culture, And you said,

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Speaker 1: David Simon, the guy who created the wire and tremay. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this has come up a lot and uh, and in

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Speaker 1: some of the resources we were looking at for this episode.

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Speaker 1: And I think the reason that it is often brought

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Speaker 1: up as a good example is because David Simon and

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Speaker 1: the teams that he as symbols, they tend to approach

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Speaker 1: these topics with, you know, out of a sense of

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Speaker 1: wanting to understand a very empathic, uh journalistic mission in mind. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's important. Uh. And as we go through

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Speaker 1: these examples, it becomes clearer to me that that part

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Speaker 1: of it is like actually engaging with the culture that

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Speaker 1: you're influenced by or appropriating, right, like engaging with that

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Speaker 1: and not just the artifact. Uh. That goes a long way.

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Speaker 1: Now that being said, I do have to I do

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Speaker 1: have to throw out there that I know that David

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Speaker 1: Simon does make an effort to bring in members of

427
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: of of cultures that are that are depicted in his shows,

428
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: because I remember him talking about The Wire and towards

429
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: the end and saying that if they were going to

430
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: do another season, they would have to incorporate like another

431
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: racial demographic of Baltimore, and if they did not have

432
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 1: anybody uh on the team that had had expertise or

433
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: knowledge or or participation in that culture. Yeah, I was

434
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: gonna say, I can't remember the character's name. There's like

435
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: a preacher on the show, and I want to say,

436
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: like the real life version of him is in the

437
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: writer's room for that show, or was in the writer's room.

438
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to call off remember, isn't I'm sure

439
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: some Wire fans will point we'll answer that question for us.

440
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: So then let's let's look at some really clear negative examples.

441
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: And this again maybe where some people sort of react

442
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: defensively and say, what how is that how is that negative?

443
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: The most people agree the adaptation of Native American garments

444
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 1: in the fashion industry UH isn't seen in a positive light.

445
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: UH So in a brief period of time in the

446
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: last couple of years, we had Victorious Secret feature a

447
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: model wearing a feathered headdress and turquoise jewelry, and a

448
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: fashion show that at the same time, Michelle Williams was

449
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: criticized for wearing braids and feathers in a magazine photo shoot,

450
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: and contestants on Germany's Next Top Model also did a

451
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: photo shoot wearing headdresses UH in Native American style clothing

452
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: UH and Native American writer Jessica Metcalf actually points out

453
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 1: in The Guardian. She says, quote, our cultures have been

454
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 1: reduced to nothing more than patterns on a shirt. I

455
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: think this is a good point. This is again it's

456
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: the culture is about understanding the world through these symbols.

457
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: But when their symbolic meaning is completely discarded, they're divested

458
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: of that power, right, and then the meaning is lost,

459
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: and so why engage with it other than just like

460
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: I like feathers, or I like turquoise, you know, or

461
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: or to what extent is that even are you engaging

462
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: with it? Are you are? You're not really engaging with

463
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: it at all, if you're just taking it on as

464
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: a hollowed out, superficial thing. It's especially viewed as worse

465
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: because these artifacts have spiritual and ceremonial significance to them too.

466
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: So I think like maybe looking at this example, it

467
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: seems that cultural appropriation is quote unquote worse when it's

468
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: done for commercial purposes. So we've got sort of two

469
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: hallmarks here, the colonial one a commercial one in this sense.

470
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: For instance, fashion businessman Oscar mets of it. I think

471
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: that's how you say his name. Met sav Hot gave

472
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: royalties from his twenties sixteen spring collection to the asha

473
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: Nika tribe that these clothes were inspired by. They also

474
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: contributed to public awareness about the tribe struggle with illegal loggers.

475
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: This was in Brazil, so you know, he's clearly like

476
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: trying to uh put out any fires. I guess ahead

477
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: of time because he knew like he had a commercial

478
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: product essentially and that he could be criticized for it. Now,

479
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: if that was a clear negative example, that had some

480
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 1: perhaps some wiggle room for for some people to say, well,

481
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: I don't understand you know, I need that explained to

482
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: me a little more wine. That's offensive. I feel like

483
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: the next one should be pretty pretty clear cut, you

484
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: think so, And yet there's so many there's so many

485
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: examples of this one still being used. So blackface is

486
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: essentially like the big no no. Right. Uh, And this

487
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 1: is where I think he gets important to like, is

488
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: that cultural appropriation or is that just making fun of

489
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: race or ethnicity? You know, well, yeah, it's I guess

490
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: it's It tends to be the the the most unrefined

491
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: example of just blatant um mockery. And you have to

492
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: ask yourself, to what degree is this energy present in

493
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: more deluded amounts in other acts of alleged cultural misappropriation exactly?

494
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: I mean, really, any dressed up perpetuation of an ethnic

495
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: stereotype is going to be bad here. Don't make fun

496
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: of someone else's culture or ethnicity. Don't treat it like

497
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: a joke. Right. You remember this from our previous Halloween

498
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: episode that we did must be two years ago. Now, Uh,

499
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: there's a kind of in clothed performance that happens around

500
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: that holiday. Another example of this is, for instance, when

501
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: white people think that Dio de los Muertos is Mexican Halloween,

502
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: and they wear skull face paint. They don't even consider

503
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: sometimes the cultural implications of the actual tradition. And Connor

504
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: Friedersdorf again, he has a good quote about this. He says,

505
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: a white college student who dons black face is not

506
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: engaging with African American culture. He or she is just

507
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: caricaturing physical features of another race. The act is offensive

508
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: partially because it's reducing people to the color of their skin. Uh.

509
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: My example that I came out from this recently, I

510
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: meant in this I think in previous episode. I'm rereading

511
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: it this summer. Stephen King's in anticipation of the new movie.

512
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: I had forgotten how racist some of the characters in

513
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: that are. The Richie Tozier character puts on like a

514
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: quote black character voice in the book, Uh, and it

515
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: completely pulls me out of the story every time it happens.

516
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: I don't think Stephen King is racist. I don't think

517
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: he was making fun of ethnicity. I think he was

518
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: probably trying to critique the era that he grew up

519
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, when something like Amos and Andy

520
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: was acceptable. Right. It still feels super culturally weird to

521
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: read that today. I can't imagine in that movie the

522
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: kid from Stranger Things is playing Richie Tozier. I can't

523
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: imagine they're gonna have him repeat those lines when he

524
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: plays that character, especially since are they updating the backstory

525
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: to the eighties? Yeah, they are. Yeah, They're going to

526
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: be in the eighties, and I think the modern version

527
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: will be in present day. Yeah. Uh. Jonathan Blanks was

528
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: interviewed in the Atlantic and he says there's nothing wrong

529
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: with adopting terms like was up as they come into

530
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: white pop culture through various media. But there's a difference

531
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: between the natural assimilation of language and black imitation as

532
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: a caricature. Yeah. Obviously yellow faces another example of this,

533
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: and the big the big like just cringe worthy example,

534
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: I mean, at least crunch worthy. Is Um Breakfast a

535
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: Tiffany's wonderful film, except you have this this horrible character

536
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: played by Mickey Rooney, Mickey Rooney playing a Chinese American

537
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: and the most stereotypical way possible. Uh, just blatantly offensive

538
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: to to to to modern viewers of the film. Uh,

539
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: and and some contemporary viewers of the film as well.

540
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: If you look back at at some of the reviews.

541
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: But again, there's this, there's not an attempt to really

542
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: understand this person or to embody this character as anything

543
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: other than a mockery. You know, another one that I

544
00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: had forgotten about from our childhood adolescents Twin Peaks. Yeah,

545
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: I had completely forgotten about this. Uh there's a character

546
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: who does yellow face and that uh Katherine at one

547
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: point pretends to have died. Spoilers for the but I

548
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: haven't haven't seen it yet. You've never seen the original

549
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: the original Twin Peaks. Oh well, okay, I won't go

550
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: too far with it, but as long as you don't

551
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: spoil who done it, I'm not fine. Oh yeah, I

552
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: won't go there. But there is a character who dresses

553
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: up like a Chinese man. Uh. And it's super offensive.

554
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: And when you watch it now you realize, like, oh,

555
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: this was David Lynch making a commentary on Americans and racism. Right.

556
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: It wasn't like David Lynch was being racist, but it

557
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: is extraordinarily weird to watch something like that or read

558
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: something like it that you know I was consuming when

559
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: I was a kid and not really recognizing, oh, hey,

560
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: this is this is wrong, not quite right. Here, so

561
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: Jenny Avans again in her article she argues that we

562
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: shouldn't just engage with the culture on an aesthetic level.

563
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: It was put another way actually by an actress named

564
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: Amanda Stenberg. She was in the Hunger Games, and she

565
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: said in a video that was actually very much criticized,

566
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: what would America be like if we loved black people

567
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: as much as we love black culture. Nicki Minaj of

568
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: all People, actually echoed this. Her point was basically, don't

569
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: cherry pick cultural elements without engaging their creators as a

570
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: part of a process of understanding the world from a

571
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: different perspective than yours. And this is where it gets interesting.

572
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: You see a lot of these contrasting viewpoints. In NPR

573
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: actually did a story about how young Americans don't identify

574
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: hip hop with race. They actually think that that culture

575
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: is now possibly seen as global because you can see

576
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: it as far away as places like Korea and Russia.

577
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: At the same time, others are arguing, well, when you

578
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: culturally devalue black people, that subsequently paved the way for

579
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: violence against them. Right, and as we're seeing in so

580
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: many cases of incidents in which police are shooting young

581
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: black men, Okay, so let's talk a little more about

582
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: gray area is here, um briefly, So as always, you know,

583
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: the gray area is only as gray as the critic

584
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: paints it. So if it helps, think of think of

585
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: these as less as gray areas, but areas of question,

586
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: areas of possibility even as we discussed them, and as

587
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: you discussed them and think about them in your own lives. Uh,

588
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: places where the charge of cultural appropriation or misappropriation become

589
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: less clear. So one example that comes to my mind

590
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: a video was making the rounds recently on social media

591
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: in which a group of Caucasian women performed at traditional

592
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: African dance in presumably traditional costume. Now, it is often

593
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: the case with social media content, any context was completely lacking.

594
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: Here we didn't we were not told who these women were,

595
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: why they were doing it, where they were doing it,

596
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: even there was no no, no clue at all, the

597
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: messages in the hand of the share and then in

598
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: the in the commentator. Now, a number of commentators on

599
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: this video, when I was looking at they strongly condemned

600
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: the footage, saying that it was, you know, just a

601
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: blinding example of cultural misappropriation. A few credit commentators, however,

602
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: pointed out that we didn't know to what extent these

603
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: women had permission to engage in this dance and really

604
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: what the spirit of their performance was. It did not

605
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: I mean, they certainly were not wearing black face. It

606
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: did not seem to have comedic um aspects to it,

607
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: But we just simply don't know. In short, did they

608
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: do it to mock anybody? Did they do it to

609
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: engage in a surface level experience, or was it part

610
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 1: of a deeper effort to understand is their honor instant

611
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: and understanding there is their permission there? Essentially context is

612
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: important here. Yeah, I feel like I mean again, it's it.

613
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: It kind of depends on the commentator here and who

614
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: is making the charge of cultural misappropriation, and they're going

615
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 1: to go to varying extremes in making that charge. Another

616
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: example that came to mind Big Trouble in Little China. Yeah,

617
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: this one. When you put this in the new It's

618
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 1: immediately like a light bulb went on over my head.

619
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, Like again a thing from

620
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: our childhood never even occurred to me as a kid

621
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: that that would be any in any way offensive to somebody. Yeah,

622
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: and this is I have to say this is uh,

623
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: this has always been one of my my favorite films.

624
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: But it's a thing, and it's a you know, film

625
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: I've I've always loved, but it is a film by

626
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: a group of Western Caucasian filmmakers. Now, it does it

627
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: does invoke Chinese martial arts movie stereotypes. But on the

628
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: other hand, it does feature a large Chinese American cast.

629
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 1: It plays with its stereotypical stereotypical characters to some degree,

630
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: and even counters some stereotypes, uh within key characters. Plus,

631
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: while it certainly plays fast and loose um Hollywood style

632
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: with Chinese mythology, it does seem to try reasonably hard

633
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: to incorporate some key elements there. So in my current

634
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: experience of the movie, I'm inclined to appreciate it within

635
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: those parameters and see it as a net positive expression.

636
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: But I also understand that other individuals might take a

637
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: different view. I have a hard time imagining Big Trouble

638
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: in Little China getting made the same way today. Now.

639
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: I know, like there's been rumors that they're like they're

640
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: going to remake it with a rock or something like that,

641
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: But I just I can't imagine that it's going to

642
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: engage with Chinese culture in the same way, because like

643
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: again I'm bringing this up twice in a week Transformers,

644
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: uh whatever the whatever number five that I saw this weekend.

645
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: Like don't get me wrong, I have a problem and

646
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: I go see all those movies in the theater, but

647
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: they are really offensive at some points and how they

648
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: appropriate culture. And there's like a basically like a Japanese

649
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: stereotype Transformer that like dresses like a samurai and has

650
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: a katana and has um. I can't remember the actor's name,

651
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: but isn't it a Tokyo drift based car transfer might

652
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: be Yeah, it's some sports car I don't recognize, but

653
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: he it's a Japanese actor performing this character. It's like

654
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: super offensive in the same way that like some of

655
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: those Star Wars aliens were seen as being like caricatures

656
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: as well. Uh. And that they had another one in

657
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: this in this recent one that was French, and they're like, oh, yeah,

658
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: can Transformers be French? And somebody says, oh, no, he's

659
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 1: not actually French. He just he's just pretending to be French,

660
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 1: like he really likes French culture. And I was like,

661
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: this is like, I mean, there's so many things about

662
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: those movies that are confounding. But yeah, any statement it

663
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: tries to make about ethnicity or culture I wouldn't take

664
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: with a whole lot of brain as salt. All Right, well,

665
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 1: let's take another break, and when we come back, let's

666
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: get a little more into the case against cultural misappropriation. Alright,

667
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: we're back, al right, so let's look at cases against

668
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: in cases for this. Now. Bell Hooks actually said about

669
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: this topic, and we're talking about cases against here quote

670
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: at nicity becomes a spice a seasoning that can liven

671
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: up the dull dish that is mainstream white culture. Uh.

672
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: In the New York Times Pulse, Agal actually argues that

673
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation is actually about America's original sins, whereas origins

674
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: are bound up in quote, theft and colonization. This gets

675
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: back to what we were talking about earlier with some

676
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: of those negative examples. It really seems like the colonization

677
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: aspect in the commercial aspect are the two big no

678
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: nos here, right. Uh So if you're if you're combining

679
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: the two, it's even worse. Yeah, I mean, we always

680
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 1: come back to the idea of America is a melting pot.

681
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,439
Speaker 1: But did everyone want to go into the pot, and

682
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: to what extent is the pot proportionally stirred? Right, Yeah,

683
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: that's that's a fair question. Connor Friedersdorff actually argues that

684
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: the claims of cultural appropriation are actually objectionable if there's

685
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,720
Speaker 1: an underlying animous dis or dehumanization to them. That's his words,

686
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: not mine. The problem him becomes when this is conflated

687
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: with cultural appropriation that's seen as absurd. So for instance,

688
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: the example he gives is if a college cafeteria serves sushi,

689
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: uh and for starters, Well yeah, I mean you probably

690
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: can get sick. But but his example is basically like

691
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 1: somebody could find that as a case of cultural appropriation,

692
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,959
Speaker 1: and then somebody else would see that as being absurd,

693
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: as being a conflation right off, if you saw that

694
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: as cultural appropriation. So this is where you get into

695
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: this like sort of battle between whether or not something

696
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: is or isn't offensive, and it gets worse when the

697
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: conflation backfires. Then all examples are considered absurd. So, for instance,

698
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: even when something is malicious like the fraternity party where

699
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: everybody's wearing black face for example, right, uh, And I

700
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: just realized as I was doing the research for this,

701
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: and I had this moment where I was just like, oh, uh,

702
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: that you could use this. This is basically cannon fodder

703
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: for content creation on the internet, right, for little media

704
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: outlets like without engaging with the larger question in any

705
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: manner like we're trying to do today. It's basically any

706
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: time an incident like this happens, it's just all right,

707
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: that's a perfect five word piece that we can just

708
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: like spit out there and get people to click on, right,

709
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: Like if we feign outrage over something, or we feign

710
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: outrage over somebody else's outrage. I mean, you see this everywhere.

711
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: It's it's so much of what I think makes a

712
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: Facebook probably uh intolerable right now? Yeah, and then commenting

713
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: or critiquing another individual's outrage and what degree is that

714
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: outrage appropriate? Right? So, I think what we're finding here

715
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: is this is essentially a problem with language, right, that

716
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: we're not using words accurately to describe the differences between

717
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: something like racism and cultural appropriation. And the example I

718
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: think of, uh, and when you first brought up this

719
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 1: topic to me it came to mind was Paton Oswald

720
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: has this great comedy bit about this on Netflix. The

721
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: specials called talking for clapping. He jokes about the difference

722
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: between terminology versus listening to someone's heart, on the difference

723
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: between their words and their intent, And he does these

724
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: these sort of caricature characters. You know, one person is

725
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: using all the exact right terms, but they're what they're saying,

726
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: the content of what they're saying is offensive, versus like

727
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: somebody who doesn't know the exact right terminology, but they meanwhile, um,

728
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: and it's probably. This is where I think is a

729
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: good point to mention Gert Hofstad and his cultural dimensions theory. Now,

730
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 1: the idea here, we could whole episode on this, but

731
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try to boil it down quickly. He breaks

732
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: down cultural factors and communication and how they contribute to

733
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: miss communication. And there's five factors that he's pointing us

734
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: to here, power, distance, individualism versus collectivism, uncertainty, avoidance, masculinity

735
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: versus femininity, and long term versus short term orientation. Now,

736
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: I'm not a hundred percent of propos of his theory,

737
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: but I recognize I think he's kind of on the

738
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: right track here of looking at how different cultures communicate

739
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: and understanding one another. Differently, And basically the idea here

740
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: is to ensure that the symbols themselves aren't misunderstood. Communicators

741
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: need to be cognizant of the factors themselves. Right. The

742
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: way he actually does it, he'll he breaks them up

743
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: by nation, which I think is probably part of the

744
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 1: problem here, because I don't think one nation necessarily has

745
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: a culture per se, right to say, like American culture,

746
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: uh doesn't recognize like so many of the subcultures within it,

747
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: right Oh yeah too. I think to to to boil

748
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: down another nation to a singular, you know, monolithic culture

749
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: is generally to betray a very incomplete idea of of

750
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: who these people are. Yeah, And so I think that

751
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: might be why a lot of the examples we're seeing

752
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 1: in the literature here come from mass media. The communicators

753
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: themselves aren't actually targeting like a single audience, so they're

754
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 1: subsequently unintentionally offensive to people that they just forgot about

755
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 1: that would be part of this mass broadcast. Right. Um, yeah,

756
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 1: I mean countless examples. I don't think when Selena Gomez

757
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: puts on a bindy or um, what what did Katy

758
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: Perry do? Did she have corn rows? I think that

759
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: was what people. Uh, I think that was the example.

760
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: She was Egyptian. I don't know that dark Horse. The

761
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: Egyptian culture is an interesting example too, because what is

762
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: we'll get into it will discuss the idea of like

763
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: what happens if a culture is not appropriated and it

764
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: runs the risk of becoming outdated. It kind of runs

765
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: the risk of becoming something like Egyptian culture. Which not

766
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: to say that you could not misappropriate ancient Egyptian h

767
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 1: iconography your dress in a way that would offend someone.

768
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: But given the distance, given the time, given the fact

769
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: that the the ideas of the ancient Egyptians did not

770
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: travel well even during their time, much less into modern times, um,

771
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: it makes it a little safer for some for sale

772
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 1: pop singer two to utilize. I haven't seen that new

773
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: Tom Cruise Mummy movie. I can't imagine that it is

774
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: in any way portraying Egyptian culture in a positive I mean,

775
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: like I said, it tends to be this this safe zone,

776
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: or relatively safe at least, you know, compared to so

777
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: many things. I mean, we still have Mommy movies. We

778
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: talked before about how kind of weird it is that

779
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: we have these tales about Uh, these bodies that were

780
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: stolen from from tombs by by colonial powers and they

781
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: come to life and start killing people, and and for

782
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: the most part, like no serious self examination is conducted. Yeah, yeah,

783
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: well right and again, so like I think all of

784
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: this comes back to like a matter of semantics and language,

785
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 1: kind of paying attention to what you're saying and what

786
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: you're doing, and probably where the term misappropriation needs to

787
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: be clarified and used instead of appropriation. Now, another notable

788
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: area here or that that the factors into our discussion

789
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: concerns American sports teams and the use of Native Americans

790
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: stereotypes as mascots. Now, certainly this is a this is

791
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: a whole discussion onto itself. But what's interesting here for

792
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: the purposes of our discussion is that is that there

793
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: was a study that was published in the Journal of

794
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: Consumer Psychology by a team of researchers from the University

795
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: of Montana, the University of Washington, and Washington State University,

796
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: and they set out to empirically test the use of

797
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: American Indian brand imagery and how it increases UH stereotype

798
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: beliefs in the broader population. And they wanted to see

799
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: what kind of impact the brands would have on both

800
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: negative and positive stereotypes. So examples here would be Indians

801
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: are warlike versus Indians are noble, so it's a noble savage,

802
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: right that kind of Yeah. Then the idea that these

803
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: are the two private predominant stereotypes and these are the

804
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 1: only two that can exist when you're doing just search

805
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 1: a surface level understanding of another culture. So interestingly enough,

806
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: they found that while conservative individuals that they tested, they

807
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 1: did not change their opinion about Native Americans upon seeing

808
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: such imagery. Uh. Liberal individuals were far more malleable. Uh,

809
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: and they were affected by both positive and negative stereotypes.

810
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: And this apparently falls into line with previous studies that

811
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: have revealed that that liberal individuals tend to have more

812
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: malleable worldviews and are therefore sometimes more sensitive to contextual clues.

813
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: So I have a great example of this. We live

814
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, Georgia. Have you ever going to see the

815
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: Braves play? No, yeah, it's not my thing, but a

816
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: couple of coworkers at a job previous to this took

817
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: me to a Braves game. And did you know about this?

818
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: The tomahawk chop? Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sir, I'm familiar

819
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: enough with it to know that as we chop your arm. Yeah, So,

820
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: like there's a certain point during the game where that,

821
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: you know, the crowd gets excited in support of the

822
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 1: home team in Atlanta Braves, and they do this tomahawk

823
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: chop thing where they like use their arms like the

824
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 1: tomahawks that they're like bringing them down on the skulls

825
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: of their opponent. There's actually like a I don't even

826
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: know what it is, like a robot like animatronic thing

827
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: that kind of comes out and swings the tomahawk and everything.

828
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: And I remember the first time I saw that just

829
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: being like WHOA, Like, what is happening here? This is

830
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 1: super offensive? Um, But again that might just be like

831
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: my predilections, right, Like uh, I just saw it as

832
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: being like, Okay, this is the the savage stereotype being

833
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 1: brought out to play here. Now. They had a separate

834
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: field study as well, and the researchers also found that

835
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: exposure to a quote more negative ethnic logo A significantly

836
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: strengthened negative stereotypes among liberal individuals, while exposure to the

837
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: less negative logo did not significantly influence negative stereotypes At

838
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: any level of political identity. So what what does all

839
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: this fit into our conversation here. Well, I think one

840
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: of the things that's interesting is that it reveals that

841
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: one can interact with such artifacts of cultural appropriation without

842
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: necessarily thinking about them, without certainly without engaging with them,

843
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: but also not realizing why they could be offensive. And

844
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: it also is interesting to see how malleable worldviews can

845
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,399
Speaker 1: cut both ways. So the very the very, the very

846
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: aspect of your psyche that makes you more willing to

847
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: to see the situation from another individual side and to

848
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: shift your worldview accordingly. Uh, that can also lead to

849
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: the to the less desirable effect that you're influenced than

850
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: by bits of negative stereoto typing um and and you know,

851
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: negative cultural misappropriation. So this is actually part of the

852
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: sort of factor of leading to the whole like is

853
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,760
Speaker 1: it absurd? Is it not absurd? Should it be blamed?

854
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: Should it not be blamed? So, yeah, there's so many

855
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: complex factors here. Now let's look at some of the

856
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: cases for cultural appropriation and see if we can get

857
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: anything more out of them. Uh. Sometimes it's seen as

858
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: being positive when it's seen as appreciation and influence rather

859
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: than appropriation. Also when creators seek permission from the person

860
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: or culture they're appropriating from, or they're paying homage to

861
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: the artistry, then it gets complicated. How do you know

862
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: who you're supposed to ask? Like this whole thing gets

863
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 1: into intellectual property. I found so many articles about intellectual

864
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: property and ownership of cultural artifacts, and that there's actually

865
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: legal precedent for culture being copyrighted in certain cases. To

866
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: Um and Jenny Avan's argues in that Atlantic piece, the

867
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation is actually a result of globalization, so subsequently

868
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 1: it's inevitable, but it's also ultimately positive. In her mind,

869
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: it's an exchange of ideas, styles, and traditions, and it's

870
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: showcasing the joy of living in a multicultural society. Susan

871
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,280
Speaker 1: Scaffitti wrote a book that is called Who Owns Culture?

872
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 1: Appropriation and Authenticity in American Law, and she says that

873
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: culture shouldn't freeze itself in time as if it's like

874
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 1: part of a music e M diorama. She actually argues

875
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation can save cultural products from fading away. And

876
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: Pakistani novelist Camilla Shamsi called for more, not less, imaginative

877
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: engagement with her country. She says, quote, the moment you

878
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: say a male American writer can't write about a female Pakistani,

879
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: you are saying, don't tell these stories. And even worse so,

880
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 1: you're saying, as an American male, you can't understand a

881
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: Pakistani woman. She is enigmatic, inscrutable, and unknowable. Therefore she's other.

882
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: Leave her and her nation to its otherness. Write them

883
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: out of your history. I ran across a wonderful article

884
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: in Ian magazine. No surprise that they come up pretty

885
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: frequently here. Nabilia At jeffre Uh makes some really good

886
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: points in the article is Nothing Sacred? And when she discusses,

887
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: among other things, the experience of seeing non Sufi Muslims

888
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: take up the dervish whirling. Okay, he talks about, you know,

889
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: the origins of this custom and then what it's like

890
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: to see it, uh, it practiced by by non Muslims

891
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: and say, uh, West London, and you know, it's hard

892
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 1: to to see it as anything other than like a

893
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: hollowed out portion of someone's culture. But he also points

894
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: out that quote religions and cultures, and indeed nations have

895
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: survived only by being open to new ways of representing themselves,

896
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 1: and that the survival and spread of a culture's core

897
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: values come at a price, and the alternative to paying

898
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: that price is sometimes fossilization. Uh, your your culture just

899
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: becomes irrevalent. So this is again like plays right into

900
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 1: that whole American Gods thing. Essentially, the thesis of American

901
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 1: Gods as a TV show and a novel is that

902
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: these gods are are representations of cultures, and they either

903
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: become fossilized and are forgotten and subsequently die, or they

904
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: incorporate themselvesselves somehow into these new cultures. Yeah, like belly

905
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: dancing comes to mind as a as as a potential,

906
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: you know, area to ask questions like this, but one

907
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: that so maybe a little more related to to you

908
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: and me. Yoga. I think it fits nicely in here

909
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: because you have a practice with roots in India, but

910
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: a practice that has undergone heavy alteration, alteration by Western

911
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: practitioners and continues to undergo alteration as it takes takes

912
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: on various forms, sometimes increasingly secular forms, other forms that

913
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 1: reinforce spiritual concepts, concepts that that might uh that that

914
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: you might argue or misappropriated as well. But if the

915
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: core physical practice improves the human experience, then isn't it

916
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: worth the adaptation? That's what I'm asking in, and can't

917
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 1: the same beset of meditation in various spirit spiritual models

918
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 1: as long as there's a you know, an openness there,

919
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: and uh, an honesty and its use. So there is

920
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: actually an article in the Boston Globe that came up

921
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 1: about this, about yoga specifically and whether it was cultural appropriation.

922
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: The tone of this article is a little bit more

923
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: confrontational than I'm really willing to engage with here, but

924
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: essentially the author was pushing back because there was an

925
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: accusation that Western practitioners of yoga were ignoring colonialism and

926
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: the oppression of where the practice originated from. Uh. And

927
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: his pushback was similar to what you said, which is

928
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: essentially like, well, if the practice is beneficial to mankind,

929
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: shouldn't we do it anyway? Yeah? I think that at times.

930
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not trying to boil all this down to

931
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: this one question, but I think sometimes we have to

932
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: ask ourselves is there a legacy of horror here? And

933
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: in the answer, no matter where you are in life,

934
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: for culture is almost always yes, uh. And again that's

935
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: not not too blanketly forgive any cultural transgression, but maybe

936
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: it's simply important to on some level acknowledge the legacy

937
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: of horror and everything we do. Uh. And I realized

938
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: it sounds a bit dark even for us, but but

939
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: you know it, it kind of falls in line with

940
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: what we've been talking here, like be prepared to, uh,

941
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: to slip on the horror lens from time to time,

942
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: if only for a moment, if only to ground or

943
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: present choices, beliefs and privileges. Uh, you know, in in

944
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: a in an appropriate frame of reference. That's my personal

945
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 1: take on it. Anyway. Yeah, so you know we're winding

946
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: up here. I think uh that you know, the research

947
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: looking at this it helped me a little bit with

948
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: my question in terms of like the work that I'm creating,

949
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,919
Speaker 1: but also in terms of, you know, what are things

950
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 1: that I should be offended by or or things that

951
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: I maybe should question out loud versus other things where

952
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: it's sometimes, like I said, there's lots of content created

953
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: on the internet about this because it's fuel for the

954
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: fire and it gets AD clicks. So you know, is

955
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: this worth clicking on? Is this headline worth engaging with?

956
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: Or should I just skip right past it. So hopefully

957
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: we've provided you with some additional insight here and some

958
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: additional tools, uh for you to just figure out where

959
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: you stand on all of this and and to understand

960
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: where other people are falling on on the topic of

961
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation and cultural appropriation. Yeah, and I have to say,

962
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: as a fan of the show before I joined the show,

963
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 1: Robert does a really good job on Stuff to Blow

964
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: your Mind dot Com of incorporating a lot of different

965
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: cultures into our examination of sciences and philosophy over the

966
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: last what is it now, six seven years that the

967
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: show has been going on that. Yeah, So if you

968
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: visit stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, you're just

969
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 1: gonna find a lot of really interesting insights and that

970
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: are connected to what we were talking about here today.

971
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 1: And not only that, we've got all these are from

972
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: our blog posts, are podcast episodes, videos that we've done.

973
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: And then you've also got links out to all of

974
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: our social accounts if you want to interact with us

975
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 1: about this topic. That links to our Facebook, Twitter, Instagram

976
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: and tumbler on there. That's right. Hey, if you listen

977
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: to us on Apple Podcasts dropped by there, give us

978
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 1: a strong review. Help us out there with the algorithm

979
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: and if you just want to get in touch with

980
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:00,399
Speaker 1: us directly share your take on this hot topic, then

981
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 1: just email us at blow the Mind at how stuff

982
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of

983
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com