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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom? Never told you?

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Speaker 1: From house top works dot Com. Hi, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is Molly and I'm Kristen. Kristen. On a scale

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Speaker 1: of one to ten, how would you rate your workplace stress?

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Speaker 1: My workplace stress will depends on the day. Let's just

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Speaker 1: take today for instance. It's ten, really stressful. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I'd give it a six or seven.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty high. Am I stressing you out right now?

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Speaker 1: A little bit? With whenever I have to rate things? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got little well tense? Well, did you know? I mean,

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Speaker 1: don't blame it on me. This level of stress that

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Speaker 1: you're feeling might be due to the fact that your

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Speaker 1: boss is a woman. Can you believe that? Well, I

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Speaker 1: can't believe it because I read it, but it is

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Speaker 1: it does seem that that does seem like such a

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Speaker 1: strange thing to say. But that came from a two

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Speaker 1: thousand five survey that researchers at the University of Toronto

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Speaker 1: did where they were evaluating the stress levels and physical

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Speaker 1: health problems of men and women and the men and

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Speaker 1: women either had one male boss, one female boss, or

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Speaker 1: a male and a female boss. And according to the results,

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Speaker 1: women who only had one female boss reported more psychological distress,

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Speaker 1: which included trouble sleeping, difficulty focusing on work, depression and anxiety, headaches,

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Speaker 1: stomach pain, and heartburn. And women who only worked for

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Speaker 1: one male boss. But what about the dudes in the situation.

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Speaker 1: Did they respond so negatively to having a single female boss?

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Speaker 1: You know, they single, as in only one of the

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Speaker 1: one of them not unmarried. That caused the stress of

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Speaker 1: another type. Um No, the men did not respond the

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Speaker 1: way the women did when they no matter which kind

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Speaker 1: boss they had, they had equal levels of the stress.

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Speaker 1: So maybe it's not about the bosses. Maybe maybe we

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Speaker 1: need to just chill out more at work. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: the researchers kind of put in as a footnote that

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Speaker 1: the fact that a job where a woman has one

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Speaker 1: female boss might be something really stressful, like teaching or

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Speaker 1: nursing or social work. Um, but the headlines are all

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Speaker 1: like female bosses stress you out. Yeah, and especially if

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Speaker 1: the female boss to female subordinate relationship can get particularly tense,

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Speaker 1: certain studies have shown. But then you have other studies

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Speaker 1: saying that women make fantastic A plus bosses compared to men. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you never find an article that sort of middle of

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Speaker 1: the road either female bosses are awesome, where female bosses

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Speaker 1: are stressing out their workers and people hate them. And

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Speaker 1: why are we even looking at this to begin with? Well,

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Speaker 1: of course, since the workplaces opened up to women and

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Speaker 1: we've been clambing up the corporate ladder is happening and

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Speaker 1: knock knock, knock, breaking on through with us letto heels. Uh. So, naturally,

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Speaker 1: business researchers want to know, well, how are the ladies doing?

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Speaker 1: Because leadership skills are often associated with stereotypically male traits,

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Speaker 1: such as being more aggressive and confident and a strong

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Speaker 1: willed Whereas we we we might think that, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: how can women bring along all these feminine traits of

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Speaker 1: care and nurture really drive a fortune company? For instance?

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Speaker 1: To the top right, it's very much darn if you do,

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Speaker 1: darn if you don't, because so many studies will show

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Speaker 1: that when women uh demonstrate those typically masculine traits, they

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Speaker 1: come off badly. Often they are referred to as a

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Speaker 1: word that rhymes with which female dog. If you haven't

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Speaker 1: still gotten it, then we just can't help you. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then on the other side, when they try and

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Speaker 1: bring these nice traits in the quote unquote you know,

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Speaker 1: soft traits of being a good teammate. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: they they are seen as two weaks. So it's very

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Speaker 1: much what is a lady boss supposed to do? Um?

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Speaker 1: And then how do these traits actually, you know, affect

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Speaker 1: their underlings. So let's talk about the grab bag of

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Speaker 1: surveys that have evaluated men versus women in leadership roles

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Speaker 1: in the workplace, and by and large, women typically come

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Speaker 1: out on top. We've got an article all the way

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Speaker 1: back from two thousand in Business Week, and it says

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Speaker 1: studies show that women executives, when writed by their peers, underlings, bosses,

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Speaker 1: score higher than male counterparts on a variety of measures

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Speaker 1: from producing high quality work to goal setting to mentoring employees.

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Speaker 1: And what was interesting about that particular study is the

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Speaker 1: researchers didn't set out to find out if female bosses

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Speaker 1: were better. They were just questioning, you know, people on

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Speaker 1: what made an effective boss, and it just the data

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Speaker 1: showed that the women were doing so much better on

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Speaker 1: these skills. You know, they're being seen as people who

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Speaker 1: could think through decisions better than the our bosses. They're

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Speaker 1: more collaborative, and they weren't always out for themselves. They

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Speaker 1: were less likely to seek personal glory and more likely

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Speaker 1: to give credit to the team. And just for another example,

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Speaker 1: this is also from that two thousand Business Week article. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there was a consulting firm that looked at a sample

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Speaker 1: of fifty eight thousand managers and found that women out

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Speaker 1: ranked men in twenty out of twenty three areas. There

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Speaker 1: was another survey in which women This is from a

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Speaker 1: completely different survey in which women bosses ranked higher than

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Speaker 1: men in twenty eight out of thirty one measures. Again

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Speaker 1: and again, we're coming out if we may if we

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Speaker 1: make a list of measures we want the best boss

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Speaker 1: to have. It seems like the women display more of

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Speaker 1: those skills and when they don't. Uh, these researchers are

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Speaker 1: saying that their weaknesses are less pronounced than a mail bosses,

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Speaker 1: you know, if if the boss, if the mail boss

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Speaker 1: you know is too aggressive. Uh, a woman who has

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Speaker 1: also ranked to aggressive is not faulted for that as

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Speaker 1: much as the manness, because you might have to think like,

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Speaker 1: if a woman has gotten to that point of leadership

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Speaker 1: within a company. You know, she is our she clearly

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Speaker 1: knows how to get the job done. But then she

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Speaker 1: also has all of these, um these additional traits that

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Speaker 1: that maybe men might not possess quite as or might

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Speaker 1: not access quite as uh naturally as women. They give

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Speaker 1: women a little bit of an edge. But we should

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Speaker 1: say that the gender differences are often very small, and

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Speaker 1: in large samples like the one that pulled the fifty

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Speaker 1: eight thousand managers. In large samples like that, um it

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Speaker 1: can it can kind of skew individual results. Of course,

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Speaker 1: that's what anyone who does want these surveys says that,

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Speaker 1: you know, it just depends on whether that person likes

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Speaker 1: their boss and liking your boss. It can be a

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Speaker 1: fifty fifty proposition. Some people have great bosses, some people

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Speaker 1: have awful bosses. And at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: when someone's filling out a survey on whether they like

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Speaker 1: their boss or what they like about their boss, they

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Speaker 1: may not be thinking about gender first and foremost. So

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Speaker 1: let's fast forward to two thousand ten. We've been talking

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Speaker 1: a lot about all of these internal findings that women

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Speaker 1: are just as capable, if not more than men, at

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Speaker 1: being leaders and Hopefully in that ten year period we've

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Speaker 1: had more women reaching sea level positions and really showing

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Speaker 1: showing whose boss not Tony Danza. However, the perception of

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Speaker 1: women in leadership has not changed in line with those

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Speaker 1: those survey results of how how how we perform? Right,

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Speaker 1: because remember those first surveys we talked about the people

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Speaker 1: in the study didn't realize they were going to talk

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Speaker 1: about gender. That's just something the researchers pulled out. So

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Speaker 1: if they go to people and specifically say male or

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Speaker 1: female boss, which is better? Which do you want? By

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Speaker 1: and large, everyone male and female goes for the men. Anecdotally,

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Speaker 1: male bosses are perceived to be better at their jobs.

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Speaker 1: And Alice Eagerly, a social psychology professor at Northwestern says,

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Speaker 1: it's a general cultural phenomenon, the preference for men leaders

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Speaker 1: and bosses. And I think it just goes back to

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Speaker 1: that association of leadership qualities with typically male trade qualities.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing too, when you break it down

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Speaker 1: by gender, like which boss would you rather have? If

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Speaker 1: you pull a group of women than pull a group

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Speaker 1: of men, more women are probably gonna say that they

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Speaker 1: want a male boss. Right, And you know, it's It's

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Speaker 1: something we've talked about in a few other podcasts where

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Speaker 1: you know, women don't really help women that much on

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Speaker 1: the job. It's like we don't want to see each

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Speaker 1: other succeed. You know, they've been says about whether female

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Speaker 1: bosses help their underlings or whether they just say, hey,

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Speaker 1: I made it, you're on your own. If I did it,

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Speaker 1: you can do it, And whether the underlings in return

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Speaker 1: support the female boss, you know, in a crunch time

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Speaker 1: or if you know someone's head has to be on

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Speaker 1: the line, who do they support? And so, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's very weird to see so many women say that

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Speaker 1: they don't want a female boss. Now, is it a

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Speaker 1: female bosses obligation to tech and promote women in particular,

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Speaker 1: regardless of how they perform. Absolutely not. That is also

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Speaker 1: a form of sexism if women are just promoting other

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Speaker 1: women on the basis of they're possessing a vagina. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, like why, I just yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm very um mystified by this prickly relationship between female

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Speaker 1: bosses and female subordinates that often comes out. And I

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Speaker 1: would also be interested to see how that breaks down

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Speaker 1: by size of office, Like if that's reflective of just

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Speaker 1: like large corporate settings or if it's really um, if

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Speaker 1: tensions rise when the office gets smaller. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: one interesting thing, uh that I found on Live Science

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Speaker 1: was something about how people look at their female bosses,

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Speaker 1: and we talked about the soft quote unquote feminine skills

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Speaker 1: versus the masculine skills, and the study found that a

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Speaker 1: female boss was expected to be mother like you know. Yes,

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Speaker 1: workers were ranking her on whether she listened to them,

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Speaker 1: if she was forgiving of the fact that they had

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Speaker 1: to leave early to pick up a kid, um, if

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Speaker 1: she was if she was touchy feely, basically, if she

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Speaker 1: supported them um, and if they didn't do that. If

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Speaker 1: the if the female bosses were more quote unquote masculine,

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Speaker 1: then the workers ranked her poorly. But when they did

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Speaker 1: the same for the male bosses and asked them, you know,

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Speaker 1: does your male boss support you? Can your male boss

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Speaker 1: tell when you're feeling down? They didn't care. They only

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Speaker 1: cared if the female bosses were being touchy feeley, and

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Speaker 1: the male bosses were not expected to do that. So

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Speaker 1: it's another sort of you know example of how you know,

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Speaker 1: these female employees who don't want a female boss. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it's because they want the wrong thing out of a

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Speaker 1: boss and they know what they can get out of

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Speaker 1: the male boss. And I think it's telling if we

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Speaker 1: um if we toss out these specific competencies that were

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Speaker 1: analyzed in the Harvard Business Review in two thousand one

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Speaker 1: when they were evaluating male versus female bosses. They were

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Speaker 1: looking at traits including envisioning, energizing, designing and aligning, rewarding

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Speaker 1: and feedback, team building, outside orientation, tenacity, and emotional intelligence,

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Speaker 1: and not a huge surprise, female leaders rated higher on

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Speaker 1: every single one except for envisioning, which is recognizing new

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Speaker 1: opportunities and trends, which might be a little bit more

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Speaker 1: of an aggressive or typically male trade. And I hate

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Speaker 1: to always like boil this down to gender stereotypes, because, uh,

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Speaker 1: there is evidence that the quote cultural model of leadership

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Speaker 1: is becoming more androgynous. Basically, the more women we're seeing

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Speaker 1: in management and higher positions than the more it's shifting

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Speaker 1: our concept of what leadership really is away from this

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Speaker 1: male model to more to embracing both male and female

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Speaker 1: typical traits. Right, But to boil it down to gender stereotypes,

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Speaker 1: let us turn to the Daily Mail. Oh, Lord, because

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Speaker 1: this was a Daily Mail the as best and my

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Speaker 1: best I mean worst, because you know we've tried to

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Speaker 1: I think we've been pretty good. Christen saying stereotypically masculine,

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Speaker 1: feminine and knowing that there's not sort of one way

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Speaker 1: to go. That's just sort of how society has coded

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Speaker 1: certain traits. The Daily Mail just goes for it and

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Speaker 1: basically says that women have periods, they have hormones, they

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Speaker 1: get p ms, they are a mess to deal with

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Speaker 1: at least once a month, if not more, because they

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Speaker 1: might be upset about a boyfriend or a girlfriend or

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Speaker 1: just someone who is mean to them in the elevator,

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Speaker 1: and says that men are the best bosses because women

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Speaker 1: are too moody. Yeah, and this is I mean, we

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Speaker 1: can't Daily Mail didn't cook this up entirely. This survey

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Speaker 1: came from the online recruitment firm uk jobs dot net,

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Speaker 1: but it does make some some interesting points, like incredibly

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Speaker 1: both men and women are in total agreement that men

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Speaker 1: make better bosses. Was sixty three pc of women and

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Speaker 1: seventy three percent of men wanting a male boss. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that sixty three and seventy five is equal.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, the the male assets. There was a sidebar

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Speaker 1: on male assets and the number one is straight talking,

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Speaker 1: easier to reason with, less likely to suffer from mood swings,

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Speaker 1: able to leave their private life at home. And this

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Speaker 1: was the best no time of the month. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's I don't I mean, Molly, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: how we podcast when we are menstruating. I mean, and

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Speaker 1: Lord knows me. If there's any menstrual synchrony going on,

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Speaker 1: you can probably tell on the podcast because it's probably

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Speaker 1: a hot mess. Maybe they should just isolate us in

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Speaker 1: this booth so that we don't interact with the rest

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Speaker 1: of our workers when our menstruating. Yeah, I'm surprised we

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Speaker 1: haven't shut on the internet yet. So, I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: that's sort of the range. We've talked sort of about

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Speaker 1: a wide range of reasons why women might not get

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Speaker 1: the top job or why they might have difficulty being

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Speaker 1: accepted by the workers once they get the top job.

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Speaker 1: And it goes from the really simple stupid reasons or

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Speaker 1: I hope we can all agree they're kind of stupid

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Speaker 1: that women have a period once a month, maybe, and

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Speaker 1: um all the way to whether you know an aggressive

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Speaker 1: woman comes off poorly, I mean, straight talking and more reasonable.

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Speaker 1: Shop is these male assets in i uh, in the

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Speaker 1: daily mail. But you know, if a woman has seemed

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Speaker 1: straight talking, then would it just be that she doesn't

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Speaker 1: listen to others that she's too you know, forward with

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Speaker 1: her ideas. Every sort of trait that is deemed you know,

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Speaker 1: great for men can be turned around and said, oh, women,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing? Well? I just think that this

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Speaker 1: is a perfect example of how even though women have

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Speaker 1: numbers wise broken in to the workforce and even dominate

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Speaker 1: some industries, and we've broken into the higher ranks of

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Speaker 1: of businesses, but it takes even though we can do that,

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Speaker 1: it takes a while long time for culture and our

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Speaker 1: cultural mindsets to catch up. But there is a light

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Speaker 1: at the end of the tunnel. And this comes from

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Speaker 1: an article released only a couple of weeks ago, and

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Speaker 1: the headline is study shows exposure to female managers increases

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Speaker 1: their popularity. And I think this speaks to that point

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Speaker 1: about the leadership ideal becoming more androgynists. The more women

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Speaker 1: we see, the more normalized that behavior becomes, and the

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Speaker 1: less we uh disassociate like women with these like masculine

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Speaker 1: male traits like they can't they can't all be together. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I do think there's this disconnect that will hopefully, you know,

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Speaker 1: shut down, and that these surveys show that women are

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Speaker 1: really great with leadership traits, but that doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: the women get the top job. And so hopefully as

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Speaker 1: more of them do, you know, thanks to the survey

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Speaker 1: from a few weeks ago, then maybe we won't have

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Speaker 1: to worry about you know, does a female boss check

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Speaker 1: off so many masculine trades versus so many feminine traits?

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Speaker 1: Does she ask, you know, are you feeling sick? Is

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Speaker 1: she the office mom? And it just will it will

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Speaker 1: cease to matter. And since we have brought up so

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Speaker 1: many stereotypes, I think it's it's good to maybe end

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Speaker 1: on this quote from one of the study authors on

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Speaker 1: on this UH study on exposure to female managers, who

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Speaker 1: said that there's a need to create awareness of role

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Speaker 1: models who contradict the stereotype. Organizations and managers can try

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Speaker 1: to reduce the impact of gender stereotypes by acknowledging the

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Speaker 1: fact that they do exist. Yeah, so I think that's good,

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Speaker 1: good food for thought. We all have gifts to bring

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Speaker 1: to the table, whether we're menstuating or not exactly. I

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Speaker 1: want a T shirt that says that we can work

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Speaker 1: on that. So in the meantime, let's read some listen

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Speaker 1: to your looks. Well, I have one from our listener,

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Speaker 1: Galen phrase. We don't often we never actually say listeners

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Speaker 1: last names, but it's important to know her last name

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Speaker 1: in this example, because she wrote a book that she

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Speaker 1: thinks the sminty audience will love. It's called Grailing Cross,

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Speaker 1: and she especially thought that you guys would like it

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Speaker 1: because her characters were blurbd as the Paranormal World Thelma Mloise,

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Speaker 1: So it's got really strong female characters. It deals with

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Speaker 1: a lot of subjects that have shown up in our

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Speaker 1: past reading list of like magic, the supernatural, the paranormal mysteries.

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Speaker 1: It looks really good and again it's Galen phrase. The

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Speaker 1: book is Grailing Cross. You can find out on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: or she told me Cobo books dot com. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: I've got an email here from Aaron in response to

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Speaker 1: our podcasts on beer. She writes, I just finished listening

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Speaker 1: to your Winded Beer Become a Boy's Drink podcast, and

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Speaker 1: while you were fantastic as always, thank you, Aaron. They

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Speaker 1: were also kind of drunk. I was surprised that you

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Speaker 1: neglected to mention one of my favorite historical facts about

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Speaker 1: women and beer. Doctors used to recommend that nursing mothers

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Speaker 1: and wet nurses drink beer is a way to increased

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Speaker 1: breast milk production, since beer was a convenient source of calories.

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Speaker 1: Some people believe that certain stout beers were developed specifically

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Speaker 1: for this purpose, and guinness was often prescribed to lack

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Speaker 1: teating women. I thought it was worth a mention since

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Speaker 1: this lady specific and certainly flies in the face of

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Speaker 1: today's accepted practices. So that's a fun fact. And also

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Speaker 1: wanted to read this email as a thank you to

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Speaker 1: Aaron for writing it, because I turned it in to

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Speaker 1: a blog post for the day, So see your We

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Speaker 1: we love getting these emails. They are very important to us.

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Speaker 1: And if you'd like to read the blog posts, it's

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Speaker 1: over at stuff. I never told you that how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com in case you haven't checked it out,

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Speaker 1: and I would really, I mean, I like it if

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't mean a lot to me. And you can

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Speaker 1: also leave comments and like us and do all sorts

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Speaker 1: of fun things over on Facebook. And you can tweet

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Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff Podcast. So there you go, and

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Speaker 1: in the meantime, get smart over at how stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

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