1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:23,944 Speaker 1: Pushkin Just a quick warning. The following podcast discusses suicide 2 00:00:23,984 --> 00:00:27,984 Speaker 1: in the bullying of gay youth. I'm Jason Anthony. I 3 00:00:28,024 --> 00:00:31,664 Speaker 1: wrote My Four Days in Fake Gay Conversion Therapy for 4 00:00:31,744 --> 00:00:34,344 Speaker 1: Wired magazine and this is the story of the week. 5 00:00:36,504 --> 00:00:38,464 Speaker 1: So in two thousand and seven, I got a call 6 00:00:38,584 --> 00:00:42,224 Speaker 1: from the ABC news show Nightline. Then they had a 7 00:00:42,264 --> 00:00:46,544 Speaker 1: really strange request. They asked me to fly down to 8 00:00:46,624 --> 00:00:50,104 Speaker 1: Mexico the next day to report a segment. Now I 9 00:00:50,184 --> 00:00:54,264 Speaker 1: had never worked for Nightline. I don't speak Spanish, but 10 00:00:54,344 --> 00:00:57,464 Speaker 1: that is not why this was strange. The reason this 11 00:00:57,544 --> 00:00:59,624 Speaker 1: was strange was they wanted me to go to this 12 00:00:59,784 --> 00:01:04,864 Speaker 1: resort that had a really weird tourist attraction, bake crossing 13 00:01:05,104 --> 00:01:08,504 Speaker 1: the Mexican border. So I show up on a Saturday night. 14 00:01:09,184 --> 00:01:12,864 Speaker 1: I wait with about thirty five middle class Mexicans who 15 00:01:12,864 --> 00:01:15,984 Speaker 1: had paid twenty dollars to simulate crossing the US border. 16 00:01:16,464 --> 00:01:19,184 Speaker 1: So we're waiting until it gets dark. We're introduced to 17 00:01:19,224 --> 00:01:23,584 Speaker 1: this guy named Poncho, and Poncho had smuggled in real 18 00:01:23,624 --> 00:01:27,384 Speaker 1: life hundreds of Mexicans across the real border. So for 19 00:01:27,504 --> 00:01:32,424 Speaker 1: like six hours, we're running through mud and walking along 20 00:01:32,584 --> 00:01:36,384 Speaker 1: cliffs and all the while these fake US border agents 21 00:01:36,504 --> 00:01:39,704 Speaker 1: are driving around and broncos and shooting at us with 22 00:01:40,184 --> 00:01:44,744 Speaker 1: what I hope we're blanks. So at the end, which 23 00:01:44,824 --> 00:01:48,824 Speaker 1: is like three in the morning, we've been blindfolded by 24 00:01:48,824 --> 00:01:51,984 Speaker 1: our coyote, and they take off our blindfolds and we 25 00:01:52,064 --> 00:01:56,704 Speaker 1: find ourselves in this huge clearing filled with hundreds of 26 00:01:56,784 --> 00:02:01,864 Speaker 1: lit candles. And then someone unfurls a Mexican flag and 27 00:02:01,944 --> 00:02:07,864 Speaker 1: they start singing these seemingly patriotic Mexican songs, and I 28 00:02:07,904 --> 00:02:11,504 Speaker 1: think we're celebrating the fact that so many Mexicans have 29 00:02:11,624 --> 00:02:15,024 Speaker 1: risked their lives to come to America and send money 30 00:02:15,024 --> 00:02:18,704 Speaker 1: back to their homeland. But I'm not entirely sure, because 31 00:02:19,184 --> 00:02:28,264 Speaker 1: again I don't speak Spanish. I never fully understood why 32 00:02:28,664 --> 00:02:33,104 Speaker 1: people were paying to have this horrible experience until I 33 00:02:33,184 --> 00:02:37,024 Speaker 1: read Jason's story and wired about people who role play 34 00:02:37,424 --> 00:02:48,384 Speaker 1: even weirder events. Writing is hard. Who's got that kind 35 00:02:48,424 --> 00:02:51,784 Speaker 1: of time when you're already busy trying to be John 36 00:02:51,904 --> 00:02:55,144 Speaker 1: stand So it turns on a mic Ma the Twiddles 37 00:02:55,184 --> 00:02:58,144 Speaker 1: and knob because a journalist Frand has got in that 38 00:02:58,344 --> 00:03:03,624 Speaker 1: dual time auditories single story. Just listen to smart people 39 00:03:03,704 --> 00:03:23,024 Speaker 1: speak conversation feeling information is just so. Jason Anthony's story 40 00:03:23,064 --> 00:03:26,384 Speaker 1: is about LARPing, which stands for live action role playing, 41 00:03:26,664 --> 00:03:30,344 Speaker 1: which is something so nerdy that not even I have 42 00:03:30,424 --> 00:03:33,744 Speaker 1: done it. Larpin's when you take dungeons and dragons and 43 00:03:33,904 --> 00:03:36,664 Speaker 1: try and do it in the real world. So you'll 44 00:03:37,144 --> 00:03:39,744 Speaker 1: get dressed up as an elf, go out into the 45 00:03:39,784 --> 00:03:43,224 Speaker 1: woods and find some opposing wizard and just beat them 46 00:03:43,264 --> 00:03:46,424 Speaker 1: with your foam broadsword. What I learned from Jason's article 47 00:03:46,504 --> 00:03:51,304 Speaker 1: and Wired is that LARPing became a huge deal in Scandinavia, 48 00:03:52,104 --> 00:03:56,544 Speaker 1: so big that they moved way past fighting dragons or 49 00:03:56,584 --> 00:03:59,544 Speaker 1: re enacting Civil war battles or even crossing the Mexican border. 50 00:04:00,184 --> 00:04:04,344 Speaker 1: They created these complicated, multi day LARPs about some really 51 00:04:04,424 --> 00:04:08,384 Speaker 1: dark subjects, like being in a bunker during a nuclear war. 52 00:04:09,104 --> 00:04:11,824 Speaker 1: This other one takes place in a prison camp. And 53 00:04:11,984 --> 00:04:14,704 Speaker 1: the most popular one they ever did is in the 54 00:04:14,824 --> 00:04:19,584 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties during the AIDS epidemic. People pay to experience 55 00:04:19,624 --> 00:04:24,144 Speaker 1: these things, people like Jason. All Right, Jason, thank you 56 00:04:24,464 --> 00:04:27,224 Speaker 1: for doing this, and thanks for writing this amazing story. 57 00:04:27,344 --> 00:04:29,184 Speaker 1: This is one of the crazier things I've ever read. Oh, 58 00:04:29,304 --> 00:04:30,944 Speaker 1: you're so kind to say that, No, it's great to 59 00:04:30,944 --> 00:04:36,144 Speaker 1: be on the show, big Fan. I've never heard anyone 60 00:04:36,184 --> 00:04:39,064 Speaker 1: say that to a podcast. I've never heard before. It 61 00:04:39,184 --> 00:04:42,184 Speaker 1: felt like you were LARPing being a podcast guest. That's 62 00:04:42,424 --> 00:04:44,544 Speaker 1: that was exactly. That was exactly what was happening. I 63 00:04:44,544 --> 00:04:46,504 Speaker 1: hope it was convincing. So how do you even hear 64 00:04:46,544 --> 00:04:49,304 Speaker 1: about Nordic larpin? You know? Nordic larpe had been on 65 00:04:49,344 --> 00:04:52,024 Speaker 1: my radar for a while. I've written about games and 66 00:04:52,104 --> 00:04:55,464 Speaker 1: gaming for a while, and I'd heard about this weird scene. 67 00:04:55,864 --> 00:04:58,984 Speaker 1: I owed a visit to some friends in Denmark, and 68 00:04:59,104 --> 00:05:01,344 Speaker 1: just out of curiosity, I wondered if maybe I could 69 00:05:01,384 --> 00:05:03,824 Speaker 1: catch one of these Nordic larks that was going on. 70 00:05:04,064 --> 00:05:06,584 Speaker 1: I happen to find one that was about forty miles 71 00:05:06,584 --> 00:05:09,824 Speaker 1: away from where I'd be a staying, So I threw 72 00:05:09,864 --> 00:05:11,704 Speaker 1: my name in the hat. So you sign up for 73 00:05:11,744 --> 00:05:14,504 Speaker 1: this LARP, and the theme of this particular LARP is 74 00:05:14,544 --> 00:05:17,904 Speaker 1: what So this is a gay conversion therapy camp, which 75 00:05:18,144 --> 00:05:21,304 Speaker 1: is you know, I'm gay? And I thought, hey, why not? 76 00:05:21,784 --> 00:05:23,544 Speaker 1: And I have to say, within like a week of 77 00:05:23,584 --> 00:05:26,424 Speaker 1: signing up for these things, it's impossible to sit down. 78 00:05:26,504 --> 00:05:28,304 Speaker 1: You and I are of an age, it's impossible for 79 00:05:28,304 --> 00:05:29,704 Speaker 1: me to sit down at a table of other gay 80 00:05:29,704 --> 00:05:32,064 Speaker 1: men and not have you know, at least one of 81 00:05:32,064 --> 00:05:35,984 Speaker 1: them have gone through either gay conversion therapy or something 82 00:05:36,024 --> 00:05:38,584 Speaker 1: like it. Gay conversion therapy still goes on in the 83 00:05:38,664 --> 00:05:42,184 Speaker 1: US all the time, right. Absolutely, it's outlawed on a 84 00:05:42,304 --> 00:05:45,264 Speaker 1: state by state basis, but I think it's something like 85 00:05:45,384 --> 00:05:48,584 Speaker 1: in more than half of states it's currently still legal. 86 00:05:48,944 --> 00:05:52,064 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's incredibly prevalent people who go through 87 00:05:52,104 --> 00:05:54,904 Speaker 1: these gay conversion therapy camps or it's something like six 88 00:05:54,944 --> 00:05:58,944 Speaker 1: to eight times at risks for suicide, certainly long term 89 00:05:59,304 --> 00:06:02,344 Speaker 1: psychological harm. So I thought, hey, hey, why not. That 90 00:06:02,384 --> 00:06:05,104 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. If you've heard about how awful these 91 00:06:05,264 --> 00:06:08,584 Speaker 1: camps are, why would you want to experience even a 92 00:06:08,664 --> 00:06:12,984 Speaker 1: similar version of that. Yeah, that's a tricky one. I'm 93 00:06:13,024 --> 00:06:17,184 Speaker 1: not sure that I know. But look, Jill, you're a journalist, 94 00:06:17,264 --> 00:06:21,424 Speaker 1: and I think journalists maybe have a little gene wired 95 00:06:21,464 --> 00:06:24,944 Speaker 1: the wrong way. Other journalists run into war zones, you 96 00:06:25,024 --> 00:06:28,064 Speaker 1: run into unpleasant situations. If there's something interesting that's happening, 97 00:06:28,184 --> 00:06:31,344 Speaker 1: something newsworthy that's happening around the world. I don't know, 98 00:06:31,504 --> 00:06:34,984 Speaker 1: you just have to know, right, Yeah, yeah, okay, so 99 00:06:35,064 --> 00:06:36,704 Speaker 1: you sign up for this and what do you have 100 00:06:36,744 --> 00:06:39,264 Speaker 1: to prepare for the larb Right, it's kind of amazing. 101 00:06:39,424 --> 00:06:43,624 Speaker 1: Months before they send you these sheets that explain your 102 00:06:43,704 --> 00:06:45,944 Speaker 1: character and explain the world you're in. So I was 103 00:06:45,984 --> 00:06:49,544 Speaker 1: just sign this character named Ferret. He was described as eager, 104 00:06:49,664 --> 00:06:51,984 Speaker 1: kind of an a student. He was a do gooder. 105 00:06:52,064 --> 00:06:54,504 Speaker 1: I'd asked for a tricky a tricky character, one who 106 00:06:54,504 --> 00:06:57,464 Speaker 1: maybe wanted the therapy to work. His family was life 107 00:06:57,544 --> 00:06:59,544 Speaker 1: was a little messed up. He arrived at the camp 108 00:06:59,584 --> 00:07:02,464 Speaker 1: covered in bruises as a busy guy. I didn't do 109 00:07:02,504 --> 00:07:04,864 Speaker 1: a lot of prep work going into this. I read 110 00:07:04,864 --> 00:07:07,624 Speaker 1: the sheets and thought, who is this kid? But that's 111 00:07:07,664 --> 00:07:10,864 Speaker 1: about the depth that I've worked that I put into it. 112 00:07:11,544 --> 00:07:13,904 Speaker 1: How nervous are you going into this thing? Or you 113 00:07:13,944 --> 00:07:15,304 Speaker 1: don't sound nervous at all. It's not like you're just 114 00:07:15,344 --> 00:07:18,704 Speaker 1: packing the bag and see what happens. Yeah, I kind 115 00:07:18,704 --> 00:07:21,344 Speaker 1: of saying not super nervous. A lot of friends were 116 00:07:21,384 --> 00:07:23,224 Speaker 1: worried in a way that I should have paid more 117 00:07:23,224 --> 00:07:26,384 Speaker 1: attention to. Right. You know, there's a lot of men 118 00:07:26,424 --> 00:07:28,984 Speaker 1: in my generation who've been through gay conversion therapy. I 119 00:07:28,984 --> 00:07:30,704 Speaker 1: met a lot of them. I ran into another one 120 00:07:30,784 --> 00:07:33,304 Speaker 1: over this past weekend, and so it was a lot 121 00:07:33,304 --> 00:07:35,544 Speaker 1: of eye rolling. It was a lot of like take 122 00:07:35,584 --> 00:07:38,104 Speaker 1: care of yourself. But you know, I also thought, you're 123 00:07:38,104 --> 00:07:40,144 Speaker 1: playing a game, like what you'ah the worst thing? You 124 00:07:40,224 --> 00:07:42,944 Speaker 1: just you know, you just walk off campus and don't 125 00:07:42,984 --> 00:07:44,944 Speaker 1: have to worry about it at all. Okay, so you 126 00:07:45,104 --> 00:07:48,024 Speaker 1: arrive at this retreat center, can you just describe, like 127 00:07:48,184 --> 00:07:51,104 Speaker 1: what it looks like when you first get there? Man, So, 128 00:07:51,224 --> 00:07:54,624 Speaker 1: Denmark is a really comforting place. This larpe had rented 129 00:07:54,624 --> 00:07:58,544 Speaker 1: this retreat center in the woods, and it's this typical 130 00:07:58,704 --> 00:08:01,864 Speaker 1: Danish public space with all of the very friendly architecture. 131 00:08:02,384 --> 00:08:04,784 Speaker 1: But the Lark organizers had also gotten into this Danish 132 00:08:04,784 --> 00:08:06,984 Speaker 1: space and started to make it over into what it 133 00:08:07,024 --> 00:08:10,224 Speaker 1: would be this center for action, this gay conversion therapy camp. 134 00:08:10,704 --> 00:08:15,384 Speaker 1: There were these jaunty posters all over the place with 135 00:08:15,824 --> 00:08:19,904 Speaker 1: these serene, banal looking heterosexual couples looking at each other's eyes. 136 00:08:20,024 --> 00:08:22,544 Speaker 1: There were a lot of animals, you know, a lion 137 00:08:22,624 --> 00:08:24,824 Speaker 1: and a lioness on a poster sort of showing you 138 00:08:24,864 --> 00:08:28,224 Speaker 1: how heterosexuality was the norm of the natural world. And 139 00:08:28,264 --> 00:08:31,984 Speaker 1: then just this the slogans the finality, these slogans helping 140 00:08:32,024 --> 00:08:35,664 Speaker 1: you become natural. They produced this amazing flag that flew 141 00:08:35,744 --> 00:08:37,904 Speaker 1: on the flagpole at the center of the camp. So 142 00:08:38,064 --> 00:08:39,824 Speaker 1: it was as if you were in Scandinavia, but a 143 00:08:39,904 --> 00:08:43,544 Speaker 1: Scandinavia that had gone horribly wrong. Okay, so tell me 144 00:08:43,584 --> 00:08:46,704 Speaker 1: about the first day. The organizers give this pep talk 145 00:08:46,984 --> 00:08:49,904 Speaker 1: and they play some James Blake song and then boom, 146 00:08:50,024 --> 00:08:52,984 Speaker 1: suddenly you're in the larp and you have to pretend 147 00:08:53,024 --> 00:08:57,704 Speaker 1: to be this teenager named Ferret. Right. What shocks me 148 00:08:57,944 --> 00:09:01,064 Speaker 1: about this LARPing experience is that you know, the light 149 00:09:01,544 --> 00:09:05,464 Speaker 1: switches and everyone is in. They're just in the new reality. 150 00:09:05,624 --> 00:09:08,744 Speaker 1: And I mean, I just decide I'm gonna go jump 151 00:09:08,744 --> 00:09:11,904 Speaker 1: in this with abandon. The character Ferret is supposed to 152 00:09:11,904 --> 00:09:15,944 Speaker 1: be kind of a goody two shoes, so I'm being loud, obnoxious. Shit, 153 00:09:16,024 --> 00:09:18,064 Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember what it's like to be sixteen, 154 00:09:18,144 --> 00:09:21,864 Speaker 1: and I'm raising my hand and answering all of the questions, 155 00:09:22,784 --> 00:09:25,344 Speaker 1: and so we're LARPing around. It is so awkward. I 156 00:09:25,384 --> 00:09:28,984 Speaker 1: find almost immediately to have conversations with people when you're 157 00:09:29,584 --> 00:09:33,944 Speaker 1: pretending as a grown up, right, Like, it's just incredibly awkward. 158 00:09:34,184 --> 00:09:35,904 Speaker 1: As a kid, I get you know, when you're playing 159 00:09:35,944 --> 00:09:38,344 Speaker 1: house as sure you know I'm the family cat. It 160 00:09:38,424 --> 00:09:40,584 Speaker 1: makes complete sense. But as it grown up it was 161 00:09:40,624 --> 00:09:43,184 Speaker 1: awkward for me. Even as a kid, I find it 162 00:09:43,584 --> 00:09:46,624 Speaker 1: acting is so hard, and you're being asked to be 163 00:09:46,704 --> 00:09:50,184 Speaker 1: an improverb for fortieth straight it seems impossible. Yeah. What 164 00:09:50,344 --> 00:09:53,664 Speaker 1: I discovered quickly is that almost everybody else chose a 165 00:09:53,824 --> 00:09:57,544 Speaker 1: version of themselves, and so I had chosen this kid 166 00:09:57,584 --> 00:10:00,784 Speaker 1: who was bouncy and obnoxious and really wanted to be 167 00:10:01,304 --> 00:10:04,504 Speaker 1: concured of his gayness. And almost immediately I was feeling like, 168 00:10:04,504 --> 00:10:06,624 Speaker 1: oh my god, not only am I terrible at this, 169 00:10:06,704 --> 00:10:10,824 Speaker 1: I'm pissing everybody off. You suck at According to the article, 170 00:10:11,024 --> 00:10:13,784 Speaker 1: I am terrible. I could not convey in words how 171 00:10:13,904 --> 00:10:17,184 Speaker 1: terrible I was at LARPing and I'm being loud and 172 00:10:17,304 --> 00:10:19,504 Speaker 1: I hate the sound of my voice in my own ears. 173 00:10:19,704 --> 00:10:21,344 Speaker 1: I just want to hide. I just want to crawl 174 00:10:21,424 --> 00:10:25,104 Speaker 1: under something. Is this a miserable, sweaty experience so far? Oh, 175 00:10:25,144 --> 00:10:27,544 Speaker 1: insanely say insanely sway, And of course you're like, well, 176 00:10:27,544 --> 00:10:29,544 Speaker 1: I've just now committed to four days of pretending to 177 00:10:29,584 --> 00:10:33,184 Speaker 1: be this teenager. It just the whole thing feels cringey 178 00:10:33,344 --> 00:10:36,264 Speaker 1: and awful and awkward, and I don't know what I've 179 00:10:36,304 --> 00:10:39,144 Speaker 1: gotten myself into and what's this likely. Day to day 180 00:10:39,304 --> 00:10:42,904 Speaker 1: at conversion camp, you're going to classes and lectures and 181 00:10:42,944 --> 00:10:46,264 Speaker 1: therapy sessions. This larpe had a school structure, so this 182 00:10:46,304 --> 00:10:48,584 Speaker 1: is all based on extensive research on what happens and 183 00:10:48,704 --> 00:10:53,184 Speaker 1: mostly US conversion therapy camps. There were classes that were 184 00:10:53,224 --> 00:10:56,424 Speaker 1: gender separated. You would partner up and you'd read a 185 00:10:56,464 --> 00:10:59,584 Speaker 1: piece of homoerotic literature to your partner, and if you 186 00:10:59,664 --> 00:11:03,944 Speaker 1: felt yourself getting any arousal, you had to prick yourself 187 00:11:03,944 --> 00:11:07,424 Speaker 1: with attack in your thumb. That's something they really do 188 00:11:07,424 --> 00:11:09,864 Speaker 1: at gay conversion therapy. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, So in 189 00:11:09,984 --> 00:11:12,304 Speaker 1: something we got a best of hits right this There 190 00:11:12,304 --> 00:11:16,184 Speaker 1: were a lot of lectures, you know, the psychotherapeutic argument 191 00:11:16,184 --> 00:11:20,784 Speaker 1: against homosexuality, of the scientific argument against homosexuality. And then 192 00:11:20,824 --> 00:11:23,064 Speaker 1: of course there were the therapy sessions. These were these 193 00:11:23,144 --> 00:11:26,144 Speaker 1: really tight groups of eight people where you would have 194 00:11:26,144 --> 00:11:29,504 Speaker 1: someone just really dig deep into your personal story. And 195 00:11:29,584 --> 00:11:32,824 Speaker 1: the group therapy that I have is led by this 196 00:11:33,264 --> 00:11:38,464 Speaker 1: woman named Miss Walker, and Miss Walker is just that's dystopic. 197 00:11:38,584 --> 00:11:41,344 Speaker 1: Miss Walker that seems scary, doesn't it. Yeah, she and 198 00:11:41,424 --> 00:11:44,504 Speaker 1: she looks like it. I don't know what this LARPer 199 00:11:45,624 --> 00:11:47,904 Speaker 1: did to sort of give this effect, but it was 200 00:11:48,024 --> 00:11:53,384 Speaker 1: just chilling. She's just this Hollywood send up of a psychiatrist, right, 201 00:11:53,464 --> 00:11:56,184 Speaker 1: you know, just the sort of light helmet of black 202 00:11:56,224 --> 00:12:01,784 Speaker 1: hair and this bright red lipstick. This iciness emanated, emanated 203 00:12:01,824 --> 00:12:04,144 Speaker 1: from her whenever she's walking through a room. And so 204 00:12:04,184 --> 00:12:06,944 Speaker 1: she's actually therapizing people one by one in our small 205 00:12:07,024 --> 00:12:10,344 Speaker 1: therapy group and it gets to me and she just 206 00:12:10,464 --> 00:12:13,224 Speaker 1: looks me in the face and says, you're faking. No 207 00:12:13,264 --> 00:12:16,224 Speaker 1: one likes you, and this is exactly what I'm feeling 208 00:12:16,224 --> 00:12:18,424 Speaker 1: at the moment, right, And so she has me standing 209 00:12:18,424 --> 00:12:20,064 Speaker 1: in front of the class and just says, alrighty, everyone, 210 00:12:20,384 --> 00:12:23,104 Speaker 1: if you have something to say, you know, just get 211 00:12:23,144 --> 00:12:25,024 Speaker 1: it off your cat chests. Just tell Ferret you know 212 00:12:25,064 --> 00:12:27,304 Speaker 1: what you're honestly thinking. And it becomes this, you know, 213 00:12:27,384 --> 00:12:30,904 Speaker 1: like this Maoest struggle session where everyone is just like, hey, 214 00:12:31,064 --> 00:12:34,784 Speaker 1: you're genuinely terrible and awkward and you're faking everything and 215 00:12:34,824 --> 00:12:37,064 Speaker 1: no one likes you. And I am, you know, I 216 00:12:37,064 --> 00:12:39,304 Speaker 1: don't you know, I'm alone in a foreign country. I 217 00:12:39,344 --> 00:12:40,744 Speaker 1: think is this part of the game? Is it not 218 00:12:40,784 --> 00:12:42,824 Speaker 1: part of the game? So I I just leave this 219 00:12:42,864 --> 00:12:45,824 Speaker 1: experience just completely torn down and shaking it. It's really weird. 220 00:12:46,144 --> 00:12:48,744 Speaker 1: So now you're in. Now you're you're kind of feeling 221 00:12:48,824 --> 00:12:51,504 Speaker 1: like you're actually laughing, right, Yeah, I feel I feel 222 00:12:51,504 --> 00:12:53,984 Speaker 1: insecure for sure. Yeah, I feel I feel I feel 223 00:12:54,024 --> 00:12:56,264 Speaker 1: you know, Ferret's supposed to be insecure. I'm feeling insecure. 224 00:12:56,384 --> 00:12:58,704 Speaker 1: I so we're aligned in there. I'm feeling for the 225 00:12:58,744 --> 00:13:01,784 Speaker 1: first time like like this is this is how I 226 00:13:01,984 --> 00:13:04,024 Speaker 1: sort of get what's going on? I think. Okay, So 227 00:13:04,104 --> 00:13:07,184 Speaker 1: on the first night, you have this late night rendezvous 228 00:13:07,224 --> 00:13:09,424 Speaker 1: with the guy who's assigned to be your loving interest. 229 00:13:09,704 --> 00:13:14,104 Speaker 1: So what happens there? Yeah, it's technically lights out at 230 00:13:14,144 --> 00:13:18,464 Speaker 1: ten o'clock, but there's this hour where people are sneaking 231 00:13:18,504 --> 00:13:24,344 Speaker 1: around in the dark. So after insanely traumatic day for 232 00:13:24,344 --> 00:13:27,944 Speaker 1: for Ferret and and for me frankly, the character North 233 00:13:27,984 --> 00:13:32,704 Speaker 1: who's my lover, he's leaning against a building with his 234 00:13:33,344 --> 00:13:37,624 Speaker 1: ripped firefighter physique and he beckons me over and we right, 235 00:13:37,704 --> 00:13:40,184 Speaker 1: we take we take a walk into the dark forest, 236 00:13:40,224 --> 00:13:44,344 Speaker 1: which is conveniently situated right behind the dorms, and we 237 00:13:44,664 --> 00:13:50,024 Speaker 1: have some awkward teenage conversation and we initiate the sex mechanic. 238 00:13:50,464 --> 00:13:53,224 Speaker 1: What is larpe sex? What is the fake version? So? 239 00:13:53,304 --> 00:13:55,624 Speaker 1: What is? What is? What is larpe sex? And it's 240 00:13:55,664 --> 00:13:58,504 Speaker 1: different organizers do it in different ways, and in fact 241 00:13:58,504 --> 00:14:01,824 Speaker 1: everyone larpe sex differently. I get it. Yeah, right, In 242 00:14:01,904 --> 00:14:04,144 Speaker 1: this game there were actually two different sex mechanics, one 243 00:14:04,344 --> 00:14:08,144 Speaker 1: for straight sex and one for gay sex. What okay? Yeah? 244 00:14:08,184 --> 00:14:11,384 Speaker 1: And they said that the straight sex one was supposed 245 00:14:11,384 --> 00:14:14,184 Speaker 1: to be a little more boring but simple, and the 246 00:14:14,264 --> 00:14:19,304 Speaker 1: queer sexment I believe as a straight guy, it's not good. Yeah, 247 00:14:20,264 --> 00:14:22,384 Speaker 1: the queer one was supposed to be a little more 248 00:14:22,544 --> 00:14:26,464 Speaker 1: physically involved but also really depressing, which I can I 249 00:14:26,504 --> 00:14:29,424 Speaker 1: can vow as a gay man is is also true. 250 00:14:29,984 --> 00:14:33,264 Speaker 1: So you start by by grabbing each other's hands, staring 251 00:14:33,304 --> 00:14:37,824 Speaker 1: at the floor. You're hands travel up the undersides of 252 00:14:37,824 --> 00:14:40,184 Speaker 1: each other's arms. You're sort of crawling up each other's arms. 253 00:14:40,304 --> 00:14:42,544 Speaker 1: Then you sort of rotate so that you're back to 254 00:14:42,624 --> 00:14:45,264 Speaker 1: back and spine to spine, and all of these things 255 00:14:45,304 --> 00:14:50,144 Speaker 1: are happening very slowly and awkwardly, and intimately spine to spine, 256 00:14:50,184 --> 00:14:51,704 Speaker 1: you can kind of feel each other breathing and you 257 00:14:51,744 --> 00:14:53,664 Speaker 1: hang out there for a minute if you feel like 258 00:14:53,704 --> 00:14:55,424 Speaker 1: things are progressing to the next place, and sextually you 259 00:14:55,464 --> 00:14:59,224 Speaker 1: sort of go back again face to face, look at 260 00:14:59,224 --> 00:15:01,064 Speaker 1: each other in the eyes, and then to sort of 261 00:15:01,104 --> 00:15:07,144 Speaker 1: represent these culminating acts, you say something that you wish 262 00:15:07,304 --> 00:15:10,304 Speaker 1: you could do to the other person, and then the 263 00:15:10,304 --> 00:15:16,064 Speaker 1: other person responds with one of their profound fears about 264 00:15:16,104 --> 00:15:19,064 Speaker 1: your being together, and then you drop hands and then 265 00:15:19,104 --> 00:15:21,384 Speaker 1: that's that's sort of it's it's over. I would never 266 00:15:21,424 --> 00:15:23,744 Speaker 1: ever do that in real life. That's too intimate. I 267 00:15:23,744 --> 00:15:25,504 Speaker 1: would never do that as another person. I wouldn't do 268 00:15:25,544 --> 00:15:28,784 Speaker 1: that with my wife. That's that's so much more than sex. 269 00:15:28,944 --> 00:15:32,984 Speaker 1: That's crazy. Tell them your fears and your desires and 270 00:15:33,064 --> 00:15:36,464 Speaker 1: like touch their forearm. Yeah, this needs to be thought. 271 00:15:37,624 --> 00:15:39,744 Speaker 1: Did you bring this home? Did you start touching your 272 00:15:39,784 --> 00:15:42,584 Speaker 1: husband's forearm and telling them your fears. Yes, there's there's 273 00:15:42,624 --> 00:15:44,824 Speaker 1: been a lot of forearm touching an household ever since 274 00:15:44,824 --> 00:15:46,744 Speaker 1: I got back. It's a it's a it's a I 275 00:15:46,784 --> 00:15:48,464 Speaker 1: think I would totally try that at home if I 276 00:15:48,464 --> 00:15:51,984 Speaker 1: had been told. Part of the repertoire, Yeah for sure. Yeah, 277 00:15:51,984 --> 00:15:54,224 Speaker 1: So that was that was There are other part times 278 00:15:54,264 --> 00:15:56,544 Speaker 1: of other types of large sex if they had a 279 00:15:56,584 --> 00:15:59,864 Speaker 1: masturbation mechanic where you sort of did the same thing 280 00:15:59,864 --> 00:16:02,664 Speaker 1: to yourself with your forearms, and then at the moment 281 00:16:02,704 --> 00:16:06,064 Speaker 1: of you know, ultimate joy, you clapped really loudly, so 282 00:16:06,264 --> 00:16:09,024 Speaker 1: periodically around the lark. You'd hear like a loud clap 283 00:16:09,144 --> 00:16:11,264 Speaker 1: from the shower stalls or from one of the rooms, 284 00:16:11,264 --> 00:16:14,104 Speaker 1: and you knew what was happening. Okay, so you have 285 00:16:14,224 --> 00:16:19,424 Speaker 1: your forearm sacks with North and then and then he 286 00:16:19,464 --> 00:16:22,384 Speaker 1: winds up bailing on it, right, yeah, about halfway through. 287 00:16:22,464 --> 00:16:24,664 Speaker 1: About halfway through, he just sort of like freaks out 288 00:16:24,704 --> 00:16:27,584 Speaker 1: and kind of, you know, says, this is this is 289 00:16:27,624 --> 00:16:29,984 Speaker 1: not for me. I want to sort of pursue relationship 290 00:16:29,984 --> 00:16:32,024 Speaker 1: with women. And he kind of storms off, and I'm 291 00:16:32,064 --> 00:16:34,344 Speaker 1: there with the equivalent larpe, equivalent of having my pants 292 00:16:34,384 --> 00:16:37,104 Speaker 1: around my ankles, kind of in the forest. And after 293 00:16:37,144 --> 00:16:38,864 Speaker 1: what has been a traumatic day of feeling like a 294 00:16:38,864 --> 00:16:40,824 Speaker 1: misfit in the larpe and then being torn down in 295 00:16:40,824 --> 00:16:43,264 Speaker 1: this therapist session and then you know, kind of left 296 00:16:43,384 --> 00:16:46,424 Speaker 1: half naked, you know, in the cold Danish night, I 297 00:16:46,504 --> 00:16:49,704 Speaker 1: just feel mentally devastated. You know, it's a flashback to 298 00:16:49,744 --> 00:16:52,584 Speaker 1: being a young queer kid suddenly thirty years have disappeared, 299 00:16:52,624 --> 00:16:58,384 Speaker 1: and I'm just that kid that abandoned, you know, disregarded, 300 00:16:58,904 --> 00:17:01,224 Speaker 1: dumb kid who doesn't doesn't know who he is or 301 00:17:01,224 --> 00:17:03,424 Speaker 1: how the world works. It really it brought you back 302 00:17:03,464 --> 00:17:06,664 Speaker 1: to that place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember my 303 00:17:06,704 --> 00:17:09,424 Speaker 1: own first time, which was which is really award and 304 00:17:09,504 --> 00:17:12,304 Speaker 1: really awful, you know, and uh, you know, being a 305 00:17:12,344 --> 00:17:15,824 Speaker 1: queer kid in the eighties was just um was it was. 306 00:17:15,944 --> 00:17:18,544 Speaker 1: It was brutal. I remember my history teacher telling the 307 00:17:18,624 --> 00:17:21,704 Speaker 1: class that you know, AIDS was justice, and it just 308 00:17:21,784 --> 00:17:23,624 Speaker 1: being that was just kind of the norm, you know, 309 00:17:23,664 --> 00:17:26,384 Speaker 1: back back back then in the eighties, we still had 310 00:17:26,504 --> 00:17:29,904 Speaker 1: enough of that reality of you know, like it really 311 00:17:29,944 --> 00:17:31,944 Speaker 1: really tough for queer people, even for sis you know, 312 00:17:31,984 --> 00:17:35,144 Speaker 1: white queer people like me. That yeah, brought back a 313 00:17:35,384 --> 00:17:37,904 Speaker 1: probe a lot of a lot of memories. So here 314 00:17:37,944 --> 00:17:41,024 Speaker 1: I was, having gone into this lark, you know, pretty 315 00:17:41,104 --> 00:17:43,904 Speaker 1: much as as as a lark, sort of realizing within 316 00:17:43,984 --> 00:17:45,584 Speaker 1: seven hours that it was just going to be this 317 00:17:45,704 --> 00:17:49,784 Speaker 1: profound and probably you know, terrifying to some extent experience. 318 00:17:52,664 --> 00:17:56,344 Speaker 1: So Jason was unprepared for any of this, Like any American, 319 00:17:56,464 --> 00:18:00,184 Speaker 1: he walked in way too cocky. Meanwhile, the guy who 320 00:18:00,184 --> 00:18:04,784 Speaker 1: played North the forearm Stroker, had written love poems that 321 00:18:04,824 --> 00:18:07,224 Speaker 1: he gave to Jason when he showed up. He had 322 00:18:07,264 --> 00:18:11,344 Speaker 1: actually knitted his own sweater because he thought that's what 323 00:18:11,464 --> 00:18:14,904 Speaker 1: his character would wear. After the break, we're going to 324 00:18:14,984 --> 00:18:17,664 Speaker 1: hear how Jason paid the ultimate price for his lack 325 00:18:17,704 --> 00:18:28,624 Speaker 1: of preparation, or at least his character did. When we 326 00:18:28,704 --> 00:18:32,664 Speaker 1: last left Jason, he was having a devastating day pretend 327 00:18:32,784 --> 00:18:37,144 Speaker 1: gay conversion therapy camp. So many people feel so many 328 00:18:37,184 --> 00:18:40,064 Speaker 1: things like you did. That there's safe words, and there's 329 00:18:40,104 --> 00:18:42,624 Speaker 1: like a safety room with tea and like a safety 330 00:18:42,664 --> 00:18:45,104 Speaker 1: volunteer you can talk to. Did you think about going 331 00:18:45,144 --> 00:18:48,304 Speaker 1: in there? You know, I didn't. I think a little 332 00:18:48,344 --> 00:18:50,864 Speaker 1: bit of it is that journalist curiosity, you know what's 333 00:18:51,504 --> 00:18:54,024 Speaker 1: going to happen. There was also a little bit of 334 00:18:54,904 --> 00:18:57,864 Speaker 1: the attraction of large the reason that these people come 335 00:18:57,864 --> 00:19:00,984 Speaker 1: and do these terrible experiences that begins to become apparent 336 00:19:01,024 --> 00:19:03,704 Speaker 1: to me, and it's a very hard thing to put 337 00:19:03,744 --> 00:19:09,544 Speaker 1: into words. There is just this feeling of approaching misery 338 00:19:09,584 --> 00:19:12,464 Speaker 1: that is like kind of sinking into a into a 339 00:19:12,504 --> 00:19:15,264 Speaker 1: hot bath. You know, at first it's scalding, and it hurts, 340 00:19:15,304 --> 00:19:17,824 Speaker 1: but then it's it's kind of impossible to leave. And 341 00:19:17,904 --> 00:19:19,944 Speaker 1: that's really the only way I can describe the fact 342 00:19:20,024 --> 00:19:23,344 Speaker 1: that I was feeling just awful, and yet I had 343 00:19:23,464 --> 00:19:27,104 Speaker 1: no interest whatsoever in cutting that experience short or in 344 00:19:27,264 --> 00:19:29,944 Speaker 1: bowing out of it. Okay, So they bring you into 345 00:19:29,944 --> 00:19:33,904 Speaker 1: a meeting and they confront you with your fake parents 346 00:19:34,184 --> 00:19:38,584 Speaker 1: who are abusive and homophobic, and it's really stressful. And 347 00:19:38,624 --> 00:19:42,304 Speaker 1: so what happens right after that we have immediately after that, 348 00:19:42,424 --> 00:19:44,984 Speaker 1: we have this group exercise where all the guys are 349 00:19:44,984 --> 00:19:48,944 Speaker 1: brought out onto the lawn with one another. And this 350 00:19:49,024 --> 00:19:51,664 Speaker 1: is another thing kind of from real conversion therapy camps. 351 00:19:51,824 --> 00:19:54,264 Speaker 1: You know, guys are put into pairs and they're told, look, 352 00:19:54,704 --> 00:19:58,784 Speaker 1: you need to feel your testosterone. Queer boys don't feel testosterone, 353 00:19:58,784 --> 00:20:00,864 Speaker 1: but real men feel testosterone. So what we want you 354 00:20:00,944 --> 00:20:02,904 Speaker 1: to start rough housing with one another, right, So they 355 00:20:02,904 --> 00:20:04,944 Speaker 1: have you kind of get into each other's space and 356 00:20:04,944 --> 00:20:09,024 Speaker 1: start shoving each other around. And I just absolutely let loose. 357 00:20:09,144 --> 00:20:11,104 Speaker 1: So I just take this guy that I'm playing the 358 00:20:11,184 --> 00:20:13,424 Speaker 1: game with and I shove them to the ground and 359 00:20:13,464 --> 00:20:15,944 Speaker 1: I'm punching them in the stomach. Did you lose control 360 00:20:16,104 --> 00:20:18,584 Speaker 1: when you're a fake punching that guy. I lost control 361 00:20:18,624 --> 00:20:23,424 Speaker 1: emotionally for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, people do these 362 00:20:23,504 --> 00:20:26,824 Speaker 1: large experiences so that they can lose control emotionally, right, 363 00:20:27,144 --> 00:20:30,224 Speaker 1: that's the art of it. Did that scare you? Yeah? Absolutely, 364 00:20:30,224 --> 00:20:33,824 Speaker 1: it was terrifying. Holy moly. Yeah. I mean sitting here 365 00:20:33,904 --> 00:20:36,504 Speaker 1: way in a group of people that I didn't know, 366 00:20:37,464 --> 00:20:40,264 Speaker 1: you know, just allowing myself to be completely raw and 367 00:20:40,344 --> 00:20:44,424 Speaker 1: completely furious was intense. Yeah. For sure. When you're doing 368 00:20:44,504 --> 00:20:49,544 Speaker 1: this like fake improv but feeling real things in your body, 369 00:20:50,024 --> 00:20:53,064 Speaker 1: is there a part of your brain that's also lucid 370 00:20:53,104 --> 00:20:56,464 Speaker 1: and judging you and saying like, what am I doing? 371 00:20:56,464 --> 00:20:59,744 Speaker 1: Why do I feel this? Oh? A thousand percent? Oh gosh, 372 00:20:59,784 --> 00:21:03,144 Speaker 1: a thousand percent? But it is weird. Just how if 373 00:21:03,144 --> 00:21:05,984 Speaker 1: you tell some about these experiences, they're like, well, you 374 00:21:05,984 --> 00:21:08,104 Speaker 1: could walk out at any moment. You know it's fake. 375 00:21:08,424 --> 00:21:10,544 Speaker 1: But just like with the Stanford prison experiment or a 376 00:21:10,544 --> 00:21:13,344 Speaker 1: reality show, it's real to you in the moment, even 377 00:21:13,344 --> 00:21:15,064 Speaker 1: if there's a part of your brain that's saying it's 378 00:21:15,064 --> 00:21:19,664 Speaker 1: not real, it feels real in your body. Yeah. Absolutely absolutely. 379 00:21:20,264 --> 00:21:23,384 Speaker 1: There's this idea that in Nordic Lark they called bleed, 380 00:21:23,584 --> 00:21:27,664 Speaker 1: which is this idea that the fakeness feeling real. They 381 00:21:27,664 --> 00:21:29,784 Speaker 1: call it bleed, is the fake reality bleeding into your 382 00:21:29,784 --> 00:21:31,464 Speaker 1: real reality. I think that's what you see in the 383 00:21:31,544 --> 00:21:34,144 Speaker 1: Stanford prison experiment, right where the fake reality and the 384 00:21:34,224 --> 00:21:37,424 Speaker 1: real reality sort of start to mesh mesh into one another. 385 00:21:37,544 --> 00:21:40,624 Speaker 1: It's just such a weird phenomenon that if you isolate 386 00:21:40,664 --> 00:21:43,504 Speaker 1: people and these the only people around you, even though 387 00:21:43,504 --> 00:21:46,424 Speaker 1: you know you can walk out that door, you will 388 00:21:46,944 --> 00:21:49,384 Speaker 1: feel everything as if it's real and do whatever it 389 00:21:49,424 --> 00:21:51,824 Speaker 1: takes to fit in. It's like one of the creepiest 390 00:21:51,864 --> 00:21:54,704 Speaker 1: things about being a person. Yeah, no, no, no, Yeah, 391 00:21:54,744 --> 00:21:58,584 Speaker 1: there was absolutely shocking and you and I'd say, I 392 00:21:58,584 --> 00:22:00,904 Speaker 1: don't even know what it is. Maybe four hours, four 393 00:22:00,904 --> 00:22:04,584 Speaker 1: hours in a situation that's a completely different reality. Yeah, 394 00:22:04,584 --> 00:22:06,864 Speaker 1: and that you yourself, the telf that you thought you 395 00:22:06,904 --> 00:22:09,824 Speaker 1: were is gone. It's just gone, your six suationally a 396 00:22:09,864 --> 00:22:12,584 Speaker 1: new person. So when did you feel that bleed the most? 397 00:22:12,864 --> 00:22:15,024 Speaker 1: So the climax of the piece is me sitting on 398 00:22:15,064 --> 00:22:18,384 Speaker 1: the bunk in the morning and my body is racked 399 00:22:18,424 --> 00:22:21,704 Speaker 1: in sobs and I'm just crying. I'm snotting all over 400 00:22:21,744 --> 00:22:24,064 Speaker 1: the sheets. I'm trying to stay quiet, but like in 401 00:22:24,064 --> 00:22:26,584 Speaker 1: that awkward way. The bunk bed that I'm sharing in 402 00:22:26,624 --> 00:22:29,264 Speaker 1: this room with four other guys, it's like squeaky squeaky, 403 00:22:29,304 --> 00:22:31,864 Speaker 1: squeaky squeaky, because I'm like racked with like these you know, 404 00:22:31,944 --> 00:22:38,584 Speaker 1: snuffling sobs, and rationally, I'm like, this is idiotic, this 405 00:22:38,664 --> 00:22:43,424 Speaker 1: is so dumb, this is not you. And yet emotionally, 406 00:22:43,504 --> 00:22:45,784 Speaker 1: I had just been put through the ring or this 407 00:22:45,864 --> 00:22:47,344 Speaker 1: is on the last day of the LARP, and I, 408 00:22:47,944 --> 00:22:51,384 Speaker 1: you know, I'd really lived in this reality of this 409 00:22:51,464 --> 00:22:54,264 Speaker 1: kid who was on the verge of killing himself, and 410 00:22:54,344 --> 00:22:58,784 Speaker 1: looking down at that, I'm incredibly sympathetic. And I look 411 00:22:58,824 --> 00:23:02,944 Speaker 1: at this kid and by extension myself with just this sympathy, 412 00:23:04,224 --> 00:23:07,504 Speaker 1: you know, this seeing another person with the same intimacy 413 00:23:07,544 --> 00:23:10,624 Speaker 1: of having shared a skin with them. But on the 414 00:23:10,664 --> 00:23:13,584 Speaker 1: other hand that that rational mind is just like, holy, 415 00:23:13,624 --> 00:23:17,504 Speaker 1: this is all so fake. Nothing's happened here. You've just 416 00:23:17,584 --> 00:23:19,944 Speaker 1: kind of eaten some you know, blueberries in a in 417 00:23:19,984 --> 00:23:22,624 Speaker 1: a summer camp in Denmark for three days, like literally 418 00:23:22,664 --> 00:23:25,264 Speaker 1: get over yourself. Okay, So you get this invitation to 419 00:23:25,304 --> 00:23:28,424 Speaker 1: go meet the organizers of the LARP. They take this 420 00:23:29,184 --> 00:23:31,424 Speaker 1: incredible step of pulling me out of the game for 421 00:23:31,424 --> 00:23:33,384 Speaker 1: a little bit to sort of, you know, so I 422 00:23:33,384 --> 00:23:36,464 Speaker 1: can talk to them as as Jason about about the game. 423 00:23:36,544 --> 00:23:40,104 Speaker 1: So I, uh, that's that's when I sort of meet 424 00:23:40,144 --> 00:23:42,704 Speaker 1: the organizers of the game, who've been kind of sitting 425 00:23:42,824 --> 00:23:45,504 Speaker 1: at the periphery dressed as janitors. That's how they're kind 426 00:23:45,504 --> 00:23:48,104 Speaker 1: of overseeing this game that they've been designing for the 427 00:23:48,224 --> 00:23:50,984 Speaker 1: last six or seven years. Okay, so they bring you 428 00:23:51,024 --> 00:23:53,104 Speaker 1: in because you had sent them an email for this 429 00:23:53,344 --> 00:23:56,264 Speaker 1: idea you had for your character. Yeah, so I asked 430 00:23:56,344 --> 00:23:59,904 Speaker 1: if I could kill myself. I asked if Ferret could 431 00:24:00,224 --> 00:24:03,624 Speaker 1: kill himself. And I look I as a game out 432 00:24:03,624 --> 00:24:06,024 Speaker 1: of my age. I know that this is just what 433 00:24:06,184 --> 00:24:09,504 Speaker 1: happens with queer kids in these environments and the satistics, 434 00:24:09,704 --> 00:24:12,544 Speaker 1: you know, just in your face. I certainly had suicidal 435 00:24:12,584 --> 00:24:17,944 Speaker 1: ideation in my time, and in just that little bit 436 00:24:17,944 --> 00:24:23,504 Speaker 1: of Ferret's experience, I knew with a certainty that this 437 00:24:23,624 --> 00:24:25,464 Speaker 1: kid was just not going to make it right. Like 438 00:24:25,464 --> 00:24:28,984 Speaker 1: he had no support. He was just this fragile character, 439 00:24:29,344 --> 00:24:31,104 Speaker 1: the best I can put it is, And it just 440 00:24:31,144 --> 00:24:33,944 Speaker 1: felt like a mathematical equation like I've been supplied with 441 00:24:34,064 --> 00:24:37,144 Speaker 1: all of the details, and in my mind, I ran 442 00:24:37,224 --> 00:24:38,904 Speaker 1: the figures and there just was no way that this 443 00:24:38,984 --> 00:24:41,344 Speaker 1: kid lived. So I went into ask I'm like, you know, 444 00:24:41,424 --> 00:24:44,184 Speaker 1: is it possible. Is it possible for Ferret to kill 445 00:24:44,264 --> 00:24:47,504 Speaker 1: himself in the course of the game. So the organizers 446 00:24:47,504 --> 00:24:50,784 Speaker 1: tell Jason that yes, he can go ahead and kill 447 00:24:50,824 --> 00:24:54,104 Speaker 1: his character, but they just asked that he waits until 448 00:24:54,144 --> 00:24:56,704 Speaker 1: the end of the larp so that it doesn't become 449 00:24:56,744 --> 00:25:00,184 Speaker 1: the focus of the game for everybody. So a few 450 00:25:00,184 --> 00:25:03,944 Speaker 1: hours before the larpe ends, Jason leaves the grounds and 451 00:25:03,984 --> 00:25:07,864 Speaker 1: the organizers announced his death to the whole group. And 452 00:25:07,944 --> 00:25:11,224 Speaker 1: so the larpe ends, there's like a party which sounds 453 00:25:11,264 --> 00:25:12,784 Speaker 1: a little name to be honest, the way he described 454 00:25:12,784 --> 00:25:14,344 Speaker 1: as someone at the disco ball and they played some 455 00:25:14,424 --> 00:25:18,144 Speaker 1: Gloria Gainer And then you find out that a lot 456 00:25:18,184 --> 00:25:20,744 Speaker 1: of these people are straight. What was your reaction to 457 00:25:20,784 --> 00:25:23,384 Speaker 1: finding out that so many straight people were participating in this. 458 00:25:23,744 --> 00:25:26,824 Speaker 1: You know, it was less shocked that they were experiencing 459 00:25:26,864 --> 00:25:29,184 Speaker 1: it than the fact that at the after party they 460 00:25:29,184 --> 00:25:31,464 Speaker 1: were hooking up a lot more successfully than the gay 461 00:25:31,504 --> 00:25:35,544 Speaker 1: players were. What percentage of people hooked up after the 462 00:25:36,544 --> 00:25:39,344 Speaker 1: larpin experience that you were at. I mentioned in the 463 00:25:39,384 --> 00:25:43,144 Speaker 1: story that it was a little heartbreaking that North, my 464 00:25:43,304 --> 00:25:46,904 Speaker 1: lover within the game, you know, found this girl he 465 00:25:47,024 --> 00:25:49,704 Speaker 1: was just obsessed in love with, and so he spent 466 00:25:49,904 --> 00:25:52,984 Speaker 1: pretty much the whole afterparty hanging out with her, which 467 00:25:53,024 --> 00:25:56,024 Speaker 1: is great. He's allowed, right, that's his real romance, but 468 00:25:56,064 --> 00:25:59,064 Speaker 1: he was he was my fake boyfriend, and yet he's 469 00:25:59,144 --> 00:26:00,904 Speaker 1: run up. Was Oh my god, he's rejected you in 470 00:26:01,024 --> 00:26:03,344 Speaker 1: real life and in fake life, and like, oh, it's 471 00:26:03,384 --> 00:26:05,624 Speaker 1: too much. He just wanted to twist the twist of 472 00:26:05,624 --> 00:26:09,024 Speaker 1: the knife. Your husband wasn't afraid you're gonna hook up 473 00:26:09,104 --> 00:26:11,704 Speaker 1: with someone, or he's just like, that's what happens. Denmark's 474 00:26:11,704 --> 00:26:16,064 Speaker 1: stays in LARPing Denmark. I don't think my husband would 475 00:26:16,064 --> 00:26:18,664 Speaker 1: have been jealous of anything that happened here. I mean, 476 00:26:18,704 --> 00:26:21,424 Speaker 1: he got to hang out here in Queen's Order from 477 00:26:21,464 --> 00:26:24,984 Speaker 1: the amazing tipe places in Elmhurst, you know, have Desi 478 00:26:25,224 --> 00:26:28,704 Speaker 1: food from from Jackson Heights. And meanwhile I was cold 479 00:26:28,744 --> 00:26:30,944 Speaker 1: and miserable and having fake sex in a forest. He 480 00:26:31,144 --> 00:26:34,944 Speaker 1: was not jealous whatsoever. So a few months later they 481 00:26:35,064 --> 00:26:39,144 Speaker 1: do this larp again and you find out there's another 482 00:26:39,184 --> 00:26:42,144 Speaker 1: guy who played Ferret and and you're you're get in 483 00:26:42,224 --> 00:26:44,904 Speaker 1: touch with him thinking he obviously had the same horrifying 484 00:26:45,024 --> 00:26:47,464 Speaker 1: experience that you had, because it's an awful character, it 485 00:26:47,504 --> 00:26:50,464 Speaker 1: goes through this awful thing. Yeah, but it turned out 486 00:26:50,504 --> 00:26:53,864 Speaker 1: that's not what this dude experienced at all, right, completely 487 00:26:53,984 --> 00:26:56,944 Speaker 1: not yeah, completely not because it was it was it 488 00:26:57,104 --> 00:26:59,584 Speaker 1: you know, all made some friends, had a little romance, 489 00:27:00,704 --> 00:27:03,824 Speaker 1: wondered how I'd pursue my life in this oppressive machine. 490 00:27:03,904 --> 00:27:05,704 Speaker 1: But you know, we all we all power on and 491 00:27:05,824 --> 00:27:08,664 Speaker 1: of course that's how most people navigate this experience. I 492 00:27:08,704 --> 00:27:11,224 Speaker 1: think was most telling as I was kind of I 493 00:27:11,464 --> 00:27:14,784 Speaker 1: was asking people about, you know, how they experienced this 494 00:27:15,304 --> 00:27:19,584 Speaker 1: miserable LARP, this torture larp, and overwhelmingly the feedback from 495 00:27:19,624 --> 00:27:22,184 Speaker 1: sources was, yeah, this wasn't a miserable LARP. I don't. 496 00:27:22,264 --> 00:27:24,824 Speaker 1: I have no idea why you were miserable and killed yourself. 497 00:27:24,944 --> 00:27:27,384 Speaker 1: Everybody else was kind of having a good time. Why 498 00:27:27,504 --> 00:27:30,104 Speaker 1: are they having a good time? Like, why do people 499 00:27:30,184 --> 00:27:32,424 Speaker 1: do this? I think there's a lot of effort to 500 00:27:32,504 --> 00:27:36,224 Speaker 1: try to talk about these LARPs as as therapy, right, 501 00:27:36,304 --> 00:27:38,024 Speaker 1: sort of a way way that people a place that 502 00:27:38,064 --> 00:27:42,504 Speaker 1: people go to sort of heal and get better. I 503 00:27:43,584 --> 00:27:47,904 Speaker 1: reject that interpretation of it. I think I put these 504 00:27:48,344 --> 00:27:51,624 Speaker 1: misery larpe, these miserable experiences of LARP more in the 505 00:27:51,744 --> 00:27:56,784 Speaker 1: space of opera and the blues and country music, right, 506 00:27:57,424 --> 00:28:00,904 Speaker 1: I think these misery LARPs are really a place where 507 00:28:00,944 --> 00:28:05,864 Speaker 1: we do this very human thing of running towards misery 508 00:28:06,864 --> 00:28:13,104 Speaker 1: in art. Right, we just have profound sadness and we 509 00:28:13,264 --> 00:28:14,904 Speaker 1: need a place to express it that's on every day 510 00:28:14,944 --> 00:28:17,184 Speaker 1: in the life, because frankly, everyday life is not really 511 00:28:17,504 --> 00:28:20,544 Speaker 1: well suited to a lot of misery. Part of what 512 00:28:20,784 --> 00:28:23,344 Speaker 1: Lark does, part of the reason that it walks in 513 00:28:23,464 --> 00:28:28,704 Speaker 1: those dark territories, is that it invites us to have 514 00:28:28,984 --> 00:28:34,144 Speaker 1: this really perennial human experience of running towards misery because 515 00:28:34,184 --> 00:28:37,464 Speaker 1: it's it's something we need. So you'll be LARPI again, right, 516 00:28:37,584 --> 00:28:40,464 Speaker 1: who knows? Yeah, the right one came along for sure. Yeah. 517 00:28:40,904 --> 00:28:44,664 Speaker 1: Jason Anthony's story Nordic LARP My four Days Fake Gay 518 00:28:44,704 --> 00:28:48,264 Speaker 1: Conversion Therapy appears in the October twenty twenty two issue 519 00:28:48,304 --> 00:28:50,984 Speaker 1: of Wired magazine. Thank you so much for talking to me, 520 00:28:51,384 --> 00:28:54,144 Speaker 1: and more importantly, for writing this story. It's amazing you're 521 00:28:54,224 --> 00:28:56,104 Speaker 1: kind of saying that. Thank you so much. I really 522 00:28:56,144 --> 00:28:59,504 Speaker 1: appreciate you're having me on there. All I wanted to 523 00:28:59,624 --> 00:29:03,384 Speaker 1: do after talking to Jason is LARP. There's so many 524 00:29:03,504 --> 00:29:06,264 Speaker 1: things I want to fake do. At first, I thought 525 00:29:06,264 --> 00:29:09,624 Speaker 1: I wanted to lark being like coked up it's fifty 526 00:29:09,664 --> 00:29:12,864 Speaker 1: four in the seventies, But I don't think they'd let 527 00:29:12,944 --> 00:29:15,184 Speaker 1: me in, even in the fake Lark version. But the 528 00:29:15,264 --> 00:29:18,104 Speaker 1: more I thought about it, the more disappointed I was 529 00:29:18,224 --> 00:29:22,344 Speaker 1: that even my LARP fantasies are nerdy. Honestly, I'd love 530 00:29:22,464 --> 00:29:26,544 Speaker 1: to LARP being at Davos. Oh, hello, Bill Gates. I 531 00:29:26,664 --> 00:29:30,104 Speaker 1: want to LARP James Joyce dictating fitting against Wake to 532 00:29:30,224 --> 00:29:33,464 Speaker 1: Samuel Beckett when he's like all blind and the words 533 00:29:33,504 --> 00:29:35,984 Speaker 1: are made up and he's telling him how to spell it. Oh, 534 00:29:36,544 --> 00:29:40,224 Speaker 1: I'd LARP being on Mars with Elon Musk and like 535 00:29:40,464 --> 00:29:42,864 Speaker 1: yelling at Elon about how nothing's working and what a 536 00:29:42,904 --> 00:29:46,704 Speaker 1: stupid idea coming here was. Jason found parts of himself 537 00:29:46,784 --> 00:29:49,824 Speaker 1: he didn't like by larpin. But all I needed to 538 00:29:49,904 --> 00:29:52,864 Speaker 1: do was think about what I wanted to larpin. I'm 539 00:29:52,904 --> 00:30:01,224 Speaker 1: gonna stick to dungeons and dragons at the end of 540 00:30:01,344 --> 00:30:04,704 Speaker 1: the show. What's next for joel Stein? Maybe he'll take 541 00:30:04,744 --> 00:30:08,944 Speaker 1: a naver boke Around Online. Our show today was produced 542 00:30:09,064 --> 00:30:12,224 Speaker 1: by Kate mccauliffe and Nish even Cut. It was edited 543 00:30:12,264 --> 00:30:17,024 Speaker 1: by Robert Smith. Our engineer is Amanda kay Wang and 544 00:30:17,104 --> 00:30:20,904 Speaker 1: our executive producer is Kathryne sheer at All. And our 545 00:30:20,944 --> 00:30:24,064 Speaker 1: theme song was written and performed by Jonathan Colton and 546 00:30:24,184 --> 00:30:26,944 Speaker 1: a special thanks to my voice coach Vicky Merrick and 547 00:30:27,104 --> 00:30:31,264 Speaker 1: my consulting producer Laurence Elasnick. To find more Pushkin podcast, 548 00:30:31,704 --> 00:30:35,504 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 549 00:30:35,584 --> 00:30:38,864 Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein and this is 550 00:30:38,904 --> 00:30:42,144 Speaker 1: the story of the week. Did Ferrett ever get to 551 00:30:42,184 --> 00:30:47,584 Speaker 1: fake masturbait? No he did not, sadly, Yeah no, right, 552 00:30:47,624 --> 00:30:51,064 Speaker 1: there was some there. I think it was satisfying even that, 553 00:30:51,224 --> 00:30:53,864 Speaker 1: right there. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Please, I'm 554 00:30:53,904 --> 00:30:56,904 Speaker 1: sure you know. Just don't clap too loudly if if 555 00:30:56,944 --> 00:30:58,584 Speaker 1: the kids are around, right, you don't want anyone to 556 00:30:58,664 --> 00:30:59,544 Speaker 1: know what you're getting up to.