1
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:07,680
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

2
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:19,760
Speaker 2: A man out cutting grass comes upon a gruesome discovery

3
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,200
Speaker 2: a little girl in a suitcase.

4
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,280
Speaker 3: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

5
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,680
Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation

6
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,960
Speaker 2: and Serious XM one eleven.

7
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,600
Speaker 3: Listen to our friends at kat RK.

8
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,280
Speaker 4: A man cutting grass here in this pasture, off I

9
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,080
Speaker 4: forty five found a container. Inside were baby clothes, pampers,

10
00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,000
Speaker 4: and the remains of a little girl just left out

11
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:45,519
Speaker 4: in the middle of nowhere.

12
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,720
Speaker 5: You know when you open a container that the skull

13
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,800
Speaker 5: was definitely identifiable, the jawbone was.

14
00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,160
Speaker 6: In plain sight, and if not, I am and so

15
00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:57,840
Speaker 6: that's when.

16
00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,160
Speaker 5: Your heart thanks You think, oh mercy, we went.

17
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:01,840
Speaker 6: In or here.

18
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,200
Speaker 4: Investigators believe someone from out of town left that little

19
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,880
Speaker 4: girl's body here in Madisonville, and her remains have been

20
00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,520
Speaker 4: hidden in that desolate pasture for more than six months.

21
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,759
Speaker 7: I think the big city came to the country.

22
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,720
Speaker 4: On a Tuesday evening here in this small town of Madisonville.

23
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,320
Speaker 4: What five the local barbecue restaurant is packed.

24
00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,480
Speaker 6: I mean, everybody knows everybody.

25
00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,400
Speaker 4: Everyone at dinner talking about the mystery baby.

26
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,119
Speaker 7: It's pretty much on everybody's tongue.

27
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,600
Speaker 6: Today and we don't have these cases very often.

28
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,080
Speaker 4: The shocking discovery made over the weekend.

29
00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,600
Speaker 7: But finding a child is his heartbreaking.

30
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 2: With Men All Star Panel two, pick apart what we

31
00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,720
Speaker 2: know right now the remains of a little girl believed

32
00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 2: to be between two and six years old, stuffed in

33
00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 2: a suitcase, found by a stranger out cutting the grass. First,

34
00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,280
Speaker 2: let's go to investigative reporter with KAGS News A thinker,

35
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 2: William Johnson.

36
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:03,320
Speaker 3: William, thank you for being with us.

37
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,720
Speaker 2: Tell us about the discovery of this girl in a suitcase.

38
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,640
Speaker 8: The body was found on September seventeenth, and from what

39
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,640
Speaker 8: I can understand, the little girl was somewhere between two

40
00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,760
Speaker 8: to six years old. They really didn't make that definitive,

41
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,640
Speaker 8: but she had dark brown hair and she was somewhere

42
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,040
Speaker 8: from the Southwest region.

43
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 2: Joining me right now, Daphne Young, National Chief Communications Officer

44
00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:31,680
Speaker 2: with Child Help at Childhelp dot Org. Daphney, thank you

45
00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,240
Speaker 2: for being with us. I know you see this type

46
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,560
Speaker 2: of scenario every day, but I want to try to

47
00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,200
Speaker 2: analyze what we know right now. We know the little

48
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:46,040
Speaker 2: girl is folded over inside of a suitcase. We know

49
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,640
Speaker 2: that this happened around Madisonville, Texas. We also know that

50
00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,680
Speaker 2: it was out in a pasture off a major highway,

51
00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,639
Speaker 2: and I find that significant. First of all, Daphnie, let's

52
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,920
Speaker 2: talk about the fact that this little girl we believe

53
00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 2: as five years old, but could be anywhere between two

54
00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,480
Speaker 2: and six in a suitcase off a major highway. Let's

55
00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,880
Speaker 2: talk about the conditions under which the little girl is found.

56
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,640
Speaker 2: And I have to solve this mystery. What do you

57
00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,440
Speaker 2: make of the fact that she's so near a major highway.

58
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,080
Speaker 9: And that tells us that there's a highly likelihood that

59
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,320
Speaker 9: she was pitched out of a vehicle like trash. She

60
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 9: may have been transported over a long area, she was

61
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,720
Speaker 9: wrapped up and concealed. That tells me, obviously that there's

62
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 9: a great deal that whomever was involved put into trying

63
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 9: to hide this little child's identity, trying to wrap her up,

64
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 9: and then trying to dispose of her and get rid

65
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,040
Speaker 9: of her in this past year, so someone wanted to

66
00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,920
Speaker 9: not only conceal the body, but also wanted to potentially

67
00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:05,040
Speaker 9: hide where they were from. And throwing this little tiny

68
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,280
Speaker 9: child in a suitcase and throwing her out of a

69
00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 9: moving car on a highway would allow them to get

70
00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,200
Speaker 9: right back on that major thoroughfare and get to their

71
00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,200
Speaker 9: next location or even return home.

72
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,240
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Madisonville, Texas, because Daphnie Young just touched

73
00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,039
Speaker 2: a nerve. Who would put this child, a five year

74
00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,160
Speaker 2: old little girl in a suitcase and leave her out

75
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:33,200
Speaker 2: in a pasture to decompose. First of all, Madisonville is

76
00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,440
Speaker 2: in the county seat of Madison County. The population is

77
00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:44,520
Speaker 2: only about five thousand people. That greatly reduces the number

78
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 2: of potential suspects. Straight out to IRV Miller joining me.

79
00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:55,400
Speaker 2: Renowned defense attorney with the Miller Firm. He also is

80
00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 2: legal advisor to The Good Wife and The Good Fight

81
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:05,480
Speaker 2: my CBS, and you can often find him on WBBM TV.

82
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:07,760
Speaker 3: IRV Miller, thank you for joining us.

83
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,040
Speaker 2: The fact that there's a population of five thousand people,

84
00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,680
Speaker 2: that's a significant factor in the investigation.

85
00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,200
Speaker 10: I think you have to add on a lot more

86
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,480
Speaker 10: people to that because you have to add down all

87
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,359
Speaker 10: the people that may be driving down the highway. It

88
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,800
Speaker 10: could have just stopped, pulled over and took the suitcase

89
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,799
Speaker 10: and dumped it on the side.

90
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,159
Speaker 2: Well absolutely, I mean you and I were talking earlier

91
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,400
Speaker 2: about the Shasta and Dylan Grownee case in Cordelaine, Idaho,

92
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,760
Speaker 2: which is if you look down on it from above,

93
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,000
Speaker 2: which I have, is completely green. You can't even see

94
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,160
Speaker 2: the home where Shasta and Dylan were kidnapped where they

95
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,440
Speaker 2: were kidnapped, because the part was driving by on it

96
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,520
Speaker 2: very busy interstate and happened to look through and see

97
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,880
Speaker 2: Shasta in the above ground pool.

98
00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,880
Speaker 3: It was not a local. It was a very small.

99
00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:11,039
Speaker 2: Area, rural, but it was near that thoroughfare, just like

100
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 2: this or of Miller, And.

101
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,960
Speaker 10: I don't think that's by chance. So if I had

102
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,719
Speaker 10: to make a guess, my guess would be instad a local.

103
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,920
Speaker 10: If somebody driving down the highway and looking for some

104
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,520
Speaker 10: nice deserted spot to dumped the suitcase off and continueing

105
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,360
Speaker 10: their journey, that would be how I would look at

106
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:27,600
Speaker 10: this one.

107
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:27,880
Speaker 3: I mean.

108
00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,560
Speaker 2: And another thing, Madisonville is about four and a half

109
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:37,239
Speaker 2: square miles. It's not big. It's not big at all.

110
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:42,200
Speaker 2: So everybody in Madisonville knows everybody else. You'd have to

111
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,840
Speaker 2: know that a little five year old girl had suddenly

112
00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,120
Speaker 2: gone missing, at least from school or pre k. Guys,

113
00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,680
Speaker 2: we're talking about a five year old little girl. We

114
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,880
Speaker 2: believe she's five, stuffed in a suitcase and thrown out

115
00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,839
Speaker 2: into a pasture. William Johnson, joining US kags she was

116
00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,560
Speaker 2: a suitcase thrown or was it buried?

117
00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,040
Speaker 8: From what we understand, it seems like it was thrown,

118
00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,480
Speaker 8: and so that's what made this story just really interesting,

119
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 8: at least from a journalist perspective, because you don't often

120
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,360
Speaker 8: come across a story at least admitting person's cases. You're

121
00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 8: usually looking for someone actually who has gone missing. You

122
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,680
Speaker 8: rarely find a case where you find or remain to

123
00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,920
Speaker 8: someone and you just don't know how to respond after that,

124
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,640
Speaker 8: and from there it just becomes about picking up pieces

125
00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 8: and puzzling it all together.

126
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,120
Speaker 2: Guys, we also know that Madisonville, Texas, is about one

127
00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:43,280
Speaker 2: hundred miles north of Houston. Would someone drive all the

128
00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,760
Speaker 2: way from Houston to dump this suitcase with a little

129
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 2: girl in it? I mean to you, Doctor Carla Manley,

130
00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:54,160
Speaker 2: joining US, clinical psychologist and author of Date Smart, Transform

131
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:59,800
Speaker 2: your relationships and love fearlessly, doctor Carla. In my experience

132
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:05,160
Speaker 2: of investigating and prosecuting homicides, very often you find a

133
00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,720
Speaker 2: killer disposed of a body, disposed of evidence, commit any

134
00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,600
Speaker 2: in the faarious activity in a location with which they

135
00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:19,560
Speaker 2: are comfortable. For instance, Scott Peterson, he didn't drive five

136
00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,520
Speaker 2: hours away to dunt Lacy's body. He went to his

137
00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:27,280
Speaker 2: fishing hole and that is where he dun't Lacey and

138
00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 2: his unborn son Connor. He was familiar with it. He

139
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,960
Speaker 2: felt comfortable there, he knew his way around. Let's think, Okay,

140
00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:41,400
Speaker 2: here's another example. We all remember the case of Vanessa

141
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,920
Speaker 2: Vanessa Gain, the beautiful young soldier at Fort Hood, right

142
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:53,280
Speaker 2: there in Texas. Where did her killer dispose of her?

143
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,360
Speaker 2: Where he was familiar with the area? Not too far

144
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,760
Speaker 2: from Fort Hood? He dismembered her and tried to burn

145
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,679
Speaker 2: her body and hide her body in a place with

146
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 2: which he was familiar. I mean, you know, think about it,

147
00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,040
Speaker 2: doctor Carla. If you want to get rid of evidence,

148
00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 2: where do you go Somewhere you think is obscure. So

149
00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,160
Speaker 2: while this person, we keep thinking the killer, the person

150
00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,760
Speaker 2: that disposed of this little girl's body, could have been

151
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:28,320
Speaker 2: from anywhere. That person knew about madisonvill Texas. So they've

152
00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 2: got to have some connection with it.

153
00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,600
Speaker 11: Absolutely, it could be that because we are certain creatures

154
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,280
Speaker 11: of habit and we do tend to when we're familiar

155
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,440
Speaker 11: with our environment, you tend to think it's safer, more secure,

156
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,920
Speaker 11: and it's more accessible. If it were a passerby somebody

157
00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:50,240
Speaker 11: traveling through. That indicates a different scenario altogether, where somebody

158
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,400
Speaker 11: may have just been they've killed their daughter, killed the child,

159
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,079
Speaker 11: was on a journey and disposed of it like trash

160
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,000
Speaker 11: as they went on to their next destiny.

161
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:01,640
Speaker 9: Could be either.

162
00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 2: Case, or it could be a complete stranger that took

163
00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 2: her and raped her and threw her there, although there

164
00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 2: would have been a missing person's report, like William Johnson

165
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,679
Speaker 2: Kags pointed out, and there.

166
00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 9: Wasn't one absolutely in either case.

167
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:39,840
Speaker 12: It's chilling and heartbreaking.

168
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,120
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.

169
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,040
Speaker 2: Guys, for those of you just joining us, a guy

170
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:44,319
Speaker 2: cutting the grass finds a horrible makes a horrible discovery.

171
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,320
Speaker 3: Out in the middle of a pasture.

172
00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 2: He finds a suitcase with a dead little girl inside.

173
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 2: You know, another danger right there, And I'm going to

174
00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 2: go back to Earth Miller on this very quickly. We'll

175
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 2: never forget that. Mister Ray Kronk found the remains of Killy,

176
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,440
Speaker 2: the daughter of top Mom Casey Anthony, bagged up and

177
00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,120
Speaker 2: thrown out in a swampy area about ten houses down

178
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:24,720
Speaker 2: from the Anthony home. He came under suspicion because he

179
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,240
Speaker 2: found the body. He called multiple times to police to

180
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 2: come look at what he had found, and then he

181
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,719
Speaker 2: came under suspicion. He was there by the way, rightfully,

182
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,240
Speaker 2: that was part of his job, that he was in

183
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:45,079
Speaker 2: that location and he happened to see this bag. And

184
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,960
Speaker 2: then of course he became a target. Everyone suggesting he

185
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,880
Speaker 2: was the killer. And that was a line of suggestion

186
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 2: by the defense at the trial. So this guy out

187
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 2: cutting his grass, he has to be on the ready

188
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 2: earth miller before he get explained.

189
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,520
Speaker 10: Oh, no question about it. And if I could throw

190
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 10: out one other example for you that's typical over the years,

191
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,320
Speaker 10: and that's people dumping bodies and rivers and hoping the

192
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,520
Speaker 10: current of the river will take the body far away

193
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,960
Speaker 10: from where the body was placed in the river so

194
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,240
Speaker 10: its aids in their escape. And obviously the person finds

195
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,400
Speaker 10: the body is the first suspect and that has to

196
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,080
Speaker 10: be checked out. And I'm sure that's the very first

197
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:26,960
Speaker 10: thing that the local authorities did to see if there

198
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,800
Speaker 10: was any connection. Probably put the guy in a polyagraa.

199
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:36,040
Speaker 10: It took DNA samples, questioned him to try to clear

200
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,840
Speaker 10: them or to try to continue on with the investigation

201
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:40,640
Speaker 10: considering him as a suspect.

202
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,000
Speaker 2: Can you imagine the shot This guy in George probably

203
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,160
Speaker 2: still has nightmares about it, finding this suitcase, opening it

204
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 2: up and finding a little girl folded over inside. Guys,

205
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,840
Speaker 2: take a listen to our cut five our forends at

206
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:56,560
Speaker 2: KP n.

207
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,120
Speaker 3: X and that's you to say.

208
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,360
Speaker 13: The little girl's remains had been there for a few

209
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,040
Speaker 13: months before being discovered. They're not hoping new composite sketches

210
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,079
Speaker 13: will help identify her. In this pasture just onf I

211
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,320
Speaker 13: forty five near Madisonville, Texas, is where they found her.

212
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,600
Speaker 13: The skeletel remains of a little girl, her pink dress

213
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,160
Speaker 13: and blankets, all dumped on the side of the road

214
00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:16,920
Speaker 13: like trash.

215
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,880
Speaker 14: She has found in touching garbage bag that has been

216
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:20,880
Speaker 14: placed inside of it.

217
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,600
Speaker 13: At Virtue Case, Ashley Rodriguez is a forensic case manager

218
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,480
Speaker 13: for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

219
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,520
Speaker 14: There were people who the end of the little girl. I

220
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,080
Speaker 14: just heard about this little.

221
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,880
Speaker 3: Girl and they made very well.

222
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,559
Speaker 14: They'll be wondering what happened to her.

223
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 15: Little girl.

224
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:41,600
Speaker 2: You know, I find every every bit of information is

225
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:46,480
Speaker 2: the clue joining me right now. Dorian Bond, very well

226
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:51,680
Speaker 2: known private detective, owner of Bond Investigations, also in Texas.

227
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,200
Speaker 2: You can find them at Bond Investigations dot com. Dorian,

228
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,640
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. I find it probative.

229
00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,920
Speaker 2: It proves something to me that this little girl was

230
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:08,360
Speaker 2: wrapped in several garbage bags, then put into a suitcase,

231
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,280
Speaker 2: and then of course thrown out in the middle of

232
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 2: this pasture number one, the garbage bags are a great

233
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,400
Speaker 2: purveyor of fingerprints.

234
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 3: They really can hold a print.

235
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,880
Speaker 2: That's been my experience getting prints off garbage bags, and

236
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,880
Speaker 2: it tells me something else. If you'll remember, Killy Anthony

237
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,840
Speaker 2: was wrapped up in garbage bags but also disposed of

238
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,720
Speaker 2: with her favorite blanket. This little girl had on a

239
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,760
Speaker 2: dipe and a little pink dress and was wrapped up

240
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,040
Speaker 2: in garbage bags and then put into the suitcase.

241
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:47,480
Speaker 3: What does that tell you?

242
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 16: That tells me that it's probably a person that has

243
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:51,760
Speaker 16: never done this before.

244
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,240
Speaker 17: They don't understand forensics, They don't understand exactly how the

245
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:56,840
Speaker 17: police work.

246
00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,720
Speaker 2: To doctor Tim Gallagher joining us renow met examiner for

247
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,440
Speaker 2: the State of Florida, lecturer University Florida Medical School and

248
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:10,040
Speaker 2: forensic Medicine founder and host on the International Forensic Medicine

249
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:15,600
Speaker 2: Death Investigation Conference. Doctor Gallagher, it's a real honor to

250
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,680
Speaker 2: have you with us today. What are what would be

251
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 2: your procedures at the Medical Examiner's office when you get

252
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:32,160
Speaker 2: this suitcase inside you see garbage bags inside that it's

253
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:32,800
Speaker 2: a little girl.

254
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 18: This is a very good question, and it does happen

255
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,560
Speaker 18: more than is reported generally. When we get something like that,

256
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 18: we bring in the entire suitcase with everything intact, and

257
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,560
Speaker 18: we go through it layer by layer, meaning that we

258
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,480
Speaker 18: remove the lid. Before we remove the lid, we try

259
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 18: to find a trace evidence. We may look for fingerprints,

260
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,840
Speaker 18: for mail, for hair samples of plant samples, et cetera.

261
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 18: On the outside of the suitcase. And then as we

262
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 18: open it, as we go through the layer and layer

263
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 18: of garbage bags, you know, we are saving everything and

264
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 18: we are submitting all of that for DNA evidence, for

265
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 18: trace evidence, fingerprint evidence, and it's a very slow procedure

266
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,080
Speaker 18: and it's a very careful and exactly one because we

267
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,800
Speaker 18: don't want to lose anything, we don't want to contaminate anything.

268
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:32,200
Speaker 18: So so after we are done with the surrounding garbage

269
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,280
Speaker 18: bags or plastic or anything like that. Then it's time

270
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,040
Speaker 18: to examine the exterior of the body and see if

271
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:43,880
Speaker 18: there are any injuries, if there are any types of

272
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 18: devices on the body, and then we'll do the internal

273
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 18: examination to find out the exact cause of death.

274
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,440
Speaker 3: Well, that was a lot of information, Dottie Gallagher.

275
00:16:53,680 --> 00:17:00,120
Speaker 2: We know that the bag was a black fabric roller board,

276
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,600
Speaker 2: like so many of us carry, not the hard type luggage,

277
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:13,080
Speaker 2: but flexible. Again, that is a fantastic surface to get

278
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:19,320
Speaker 2: fiber evidence, hair evidence, touch DNA. Doctor Tim Gallagher, medical

279
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,280
Speaker 2: examiner joining us out of Florida. How do you go

280
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,879
Speaker 2: about preserving a roller board suitcase kind of looks like

281
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:35,200
Speaker 2: a backpack on wheels, you know, with the expandable handle

282
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 2: that you can pull it through the airport. That's what

283
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,400
Speaker 2: it looks like. How do you go about preserving that evidence?

284
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,360
Speaker 2: And then to Dorian Bond and Arthan Miller, how can

285
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 2: we also track the make and model so to speak

286
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:49,360
Speaker 2: of the suitcase.

287
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,240
Speaker 3: But first to you, doctor Gallagher.

288
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,040
Speaker 18: Well, that's going to be very important to do. The

289
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,879
Speaker 18: first thing is to remember to transport it, you know,

290
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,680
Speaker 18: without contaminating any of the things on the outside. So

291
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 18: the person who's doing the examination would have to be

292
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 18: in a hazmat suit or a very protective suit. And

293
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,200
Speaker 18: then the other thing is it has to be taken

294
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:16,200
Speaker 18: to a special drying room where a lot of the moisture,

295
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 18: you know, is removed from it. And then from there

296
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 18: you can start processing. You can start going over looking

297
00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 18: for as we were talking about before, a touch, DNA evidence,

298
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,679
Speaker 18: fingerprints and other trace evidence there. So the important thing

299
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 18: is not to contaminate it and to get it dried

300
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,720
Speaker 18: and into a state where they can start doing the examination.

301
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a very elaborate process, you know. I want

302
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 2: to talk about how that suitcase itself can be traced

303
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,280
Speaker 2: or of Miller joining us attorney with the Miller Firm

304
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 2: and legal analyst RV. I said, make and model like

305
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:58,440
Speaker 2: I would about a car, but everything from duct tape

306
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 2: to garbage bags. Two suitcases can be traced to a manufacturer,

307
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,400
Speaker 2: where it was sold, part of the not just where

308
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 2: it was sold, what store, but what part of the

309
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 2: country in which it was sold.

310
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 3: A lot can be learned from that suitcase. I hope

311
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 3: they're doing it.

312
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,399
Speaker 10: I think it depends on the type of suitcase it is.

313
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,360
Speaker 10: Is it the one that's in general distribution throughout the country.

314
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 10: Is it something that perhaps is sold by Amazon, which

315
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 10: could go to anywhere in the country. They're looking for

316
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,080
Speaker 10: that point of sale, event of where the potential retail

317
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 10: store was that could have sold this suitcase to somebody

318
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 10: that could have put it into the hands of the

319
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 10: person that eventually used it to transport this child in.

320
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 3: What about a Dorian bond.

321
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,639
Speaker 16: Yeah, tracking of that suitcase, like you said, is going

322
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 16: to be very important a lot. I've kind of done

323
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 16: this before once when some items have been included in

324
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,439
Speaker 16: evidence and contacting the manufacturer, they see who they distributed to.

325
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,879
Speaker 16: When it contributed to a Walmart, you can narrow it

326
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 16: down by the styles, sometimes the colors, and if it's

327
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,040
Speaker 16: a small store, it's a local regional store, that's that's

328
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 16: the best that you can track it down to. Then

329
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 16: you can see where then you can track the sales

330
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,359
Speaker 16: who purchased them. They have a suspect, Let's say the

331
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,480
Speaker 16: suspect is a truck driver or something like that, they

332
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 16: would go to that truck driver's log to see if

333
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 16: he was in that certain area when that certain suitcase

334
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:30,639
Speaker 16: was purchased.

335
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 2: In the midst of all this a very unusual clue Amarges.

336
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,919
Speaker 3: Take a listen to our cut eleven kp n X.

337
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 19: The skeletal remains of a little girl, her pink dress

338
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 19: and blankets, all found dumped in a pasture on the

339
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 19: side of a Texas highway.

340
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 20: Most likely the person responsible for placing the remains of

341
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,160
Speaker 20: the young child on the side of the road are

342
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 20: they're not from our area.

343
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 19: Chuck Lieger with the Amber her Oldert network has been

344
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 19: digging into the case.

345
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,879
Speaker 21: Pallen analysis has indicated at least a tie to the

346
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 21: southwestern United States, particularly the southeastern part of Arizona, or

347
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,880
Speaker 21: the northern or northern Mexico.

348
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,400
Speaker 19: He says, someone in that area knows something.

349
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: Guys pollen emerging as a clue to the name of

350
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 2: this little girl. That unidentified baby, Jane Doe, stuffed in

351
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 2: a suitcase and found in a very small town, Madisonville, Texas.

352
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 2: Take a listen now to our friend Mike Gonzalez.

353
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 22: While she was found in Texas, a closer look at

354
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 22: the pollen grains on both her remains and the suitcase

355
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,360
Speaker 22: suggest she was from somewhere in the southwest United States

356
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 22: or just below that region. It's even more likely she

357
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,640
Speaker 22: was from southeast Arizona. DNA test show.

358
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 5: She could have been Caucasian out in the world, and

359
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 5: we want to go back figuring out.

360
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 6: This case, Who this is and why do this happen?

361
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 22: How this happen, leaving us with more clues than answers

362
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 22: as investigators continue to try and figure out who this

363
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 22: little girl is too.

364
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 2: Daphnie Young joining US national Chief Communications officer at Childhelp

365
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 2: dot Org. Daphne, I'm seen cases cracked on even more

366
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: unusual clues than this, But don't you agree that, for instance,

367
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 2: soil samples found on a child's shoes, on bugs even.

368
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 3: Found on their body.

369
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 2: And the extent of maturation of those insects, much like

370
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 2: pollen twigs, foliage found at the scene, in the suitcase,

371
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 2: in the trash bag, on the child, are emerging as

372
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,719
Speaker 2: very very solid clues.

373
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 3: Daphne.

374
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 9: Absolutely, nature is on the side of the victim in

375
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 9: this case, because that is evidence that can be imperceptible

376
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 9: to the human eye. Most people don't even think about it.

377
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 9: We heard earlier that this is not an experienced criminal.

378
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 9: Pollen grains can get into clothing, bags, shoes, under fingernails.

379
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 9: At ASU, I checked into it and researchers are doing

380
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 9: geo computation to identify.

381
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: The hold hold on geo computation explain, So that's where

382
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 2: they try to identify the footprints of the pollen.

383
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 9: There's apparently a mathematical model where you could determine where

384
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 9: a certain plant blooms, its regional bearings, all of this.

385
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 9: So we're located in Arizona where there is potential that

386
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 9: this pollen comes from. This is Wiaer Country, Tombstone, Bisbee,

387
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 9: the remote Churikawa Mountains. There's a huge moving into Mexico.

388
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 9: There's a huge sloth of space in southeast Arizona. But

389
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 9: it is fascinating that this information can be a clue

390
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 9: on the side of this little child to say she

391
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 9: was here, someone has to know her.

392
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 2: To you, doctor Tim Gallagher, how does it work? You

393
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 2: find paulen on, what the clothing, the hair, and then

394
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: how do you match that pollen to somewhere else here

395
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 2: we're thinking parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico, but most

396
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 2: likely the bottom right hand area of Arizona on the

397
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: New Mexico border. That's where we're thinking Arizona. How do

398
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: you do that and how do you as a medical

399
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 2: examiner say, oh, there's pollen, I'm going to collect it.

400
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 18: Well, if the person was laying outside for any length

401
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 18: of time, pollin will naturally settle on them, you know.

402
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 18: So if you were able to determine this person was

403
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 18: outside for any length of time, you would certainly collect

404
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 18: for pollen. Now, how pollen works is that each specific

405
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 18: plant has its own specific pollen. It's it's as though

406
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 18: it's the fingerprint of the plant. So no to pollen.

407
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 18: No two pieces of pollen are the same from different

408
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 18: types of plants. So so horticulturists have catalogued each and

409
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 18: every type of pollen that they're aware of. So you

410
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 18: would look at the pollen under the microscope and you

411
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 18: would see the structure of that pollen, and then you

412
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 18: would reference it through the horticultural atlas and find out,

413
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 18: you know, what plant this is from, and then determine

414
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 18: what part of the country that plant is native in,

415
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 18: and then you will be able to determine the area

416
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 18: of search, as these people apparently did the southwest part

417
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 18: of the United States. So just based on the type

418
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 18: of pollend, the microscopic structure of it, and then referencing

419
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 18: it against the catalog that will give you the approximate

420
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 18: location for the native area where that pollen may have

421
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 18: came from.

422
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 3: And how do you collect it off the clothing of

423
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: the air.

424
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 18: There are several ways you can do that. You can

425
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 18: use an adhesive based of plastic, or you can use

426
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 18: a vacuum type system. Either one of them is just

427
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 18: as effective. They are just several different ways. I was

428
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 18: involved in one case where a honeybee was actually in

429
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 18: the person's clothing and we were able to get the

430
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 18: pollen from the legs of the honey bee in that

431
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 18: particular case, So you'd be surprised. You have to go

432
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 18: in with an open mind. You can find it, as

433
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 18: the other person said, anywhere anywhere on the body.

434
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: That is amazing to me.

435
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 2: And I don't understand how you can collect it with

436
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 2: an adhesive such as tape or that a vacuum without

437
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 2: destroying it.

438
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 3: Doctor.

439
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 18: Well, pollen is released into the atmosphere by the plant

440
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 18: and it could travel several miles and bump over several things.

441
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,479
Speaker 18: The structures are of the pollen, the microscopic individual pollen

442
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 18: grains are almost indestructible. I mean, there's not really a

443
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 18: whole lot you can do to them outside of burn them,

444
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 18: that would destroy them. So they are very very robust

445
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 18: and very easy to collect.

446
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: I think if it as like baby powder, I mean,

447
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 2: is it that substantial or is it even more fine

448
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 2: than baby powder?

449
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 18: Well, generally you find them in clumps, you know, so

450
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 18: they would either be a very brilliant green color or

451
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 18: a very bright yellow color, so that helps. Then of

452
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 18: course you would go over the clothing with a very

453
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 18: high powered not microscope but sometimes a magnifying glass and

454
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 18: with high lighting, different types of lighting and that will

455
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 18: illuminate you know, different types of material one of those

456
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 18: materials being pollen.

457
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: What light would that be that illuminates pollen?

458
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 18: There are different wavelengths of light that you can use,

459
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 18: and of course each pollen will have a slightly different wavelength.

460
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 18: But we have machines that go through a series of

461
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 18: wavelengths and one of them, it will definitely hit on

462
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 18: one of them that will reflect back a positivity for

463
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 18: pollen Dotga Gallagher.

464
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: That is amazing and your depth of knowledge, I mean,

465
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: that's amazing to me. We now know that a DNA

466
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: profile has been done for the little girl. Take a

467
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: listen to our cut seven our forensic KPN x Well.

468
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 13: Her remains were dumped in Texas, paulland found on her

469
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 13: belongings point to her being from somewhere further west.

470
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 14: You would either from Arizona or spend some time in

471
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 14: Arizona prior to her death.

472
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 13: Well, it's still unclear what led to the little girl's death.

473
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 13: Rodriguez is hoping that polland and pictures are the first

474
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 13: steps in unraveling the mystery of who she is and

475
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 13: what happened to her.

476
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 14: You really want to be able to help to give

477
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 14: her her name back and find some vestors for her.

478
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 13: The agency does now have a DNA profile for the

479
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 13: little girl. It's being run through national databases. If you

480
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 13: have any information on who this little girl is, you're

481
00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 13: asked to call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

482
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

483
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: Back to Daphne Young, our special guests joining us from

484
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: She's a national chief Communications officer with Childhelp dot Org

485
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: who helps thousands and thousands of children every year.

486
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 3: It's amazing, Daphne.

487
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: It sounds to me that just running this child's DNA

488
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: through the database, that's not going to cut it, because

489
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: someone in her immediate family would have to have their

490
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: DNA in the system, like a purp for instance, or

491
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: a government employee that had to give DNA. An ancestral

492
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: DNA chart tree must be done to find out who

493
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: the parents are of this little girl and ancestral Let

494
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 2: me give a good example to make sense. Think about

495
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: the Golden State killer Joseph Dangelo. We had DNA but

496
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: couldn't find him in the system. So DNA experts built

497
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: out an ancestral DNA family tree. They had to go

498
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: all the way back to I think it was the

499
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds and follow the great great great great great

500
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: great great grandfather of connected to this DNA down to

501
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: the next set, the next set, the next set, and

502
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: then find out who connected to the most recent DNA

503
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: was in the area, and that it wasn't like a

504
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: three year old little boy or a ninety year old woman.

505
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: Had to be someone that fit with a killer slash rapist.

506
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: And they got Joseph Dangelo bam, just like that. And

507
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: you know what he said when he was arrested. Oh wait,

508
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 2: well way, I've got a roast in the oven. Yeah,

509
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: he's convicted. That's building an ancestral family tree.

510
00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: Is that being done?

511
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 9: I think It's so important because, as the expert said before,

512
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 9: I don't think we're looking for career criminals. The psychology

513
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 9: of that child wrapped and the blankets and the personal

514
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 9: effects with this little girl seem to indicate this is

515
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 9: an intimate caregiver, a parent, somebody who connected to the child.

516
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 9: We know from the psychology of abusers that if you

517
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 9: are close to someone, even when you've done the most

518
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 9: horrific thing to them, you create almost like a makeshift

519
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 9: burial or cover their face or eyes. You don't want

520
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 9: that little soul looking back at you. And so I

521
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 9: definitely think we're looking for someone in the family. And

522
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 9: to your point, if that's not a career criminal, then

523
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 9: we definitely need to find out who gave birth to

524
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 9: this little child and who was connected to this family.

525
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and statistics definitely show the most likely per is

526
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: someone related to or connected to this child. And let's

527
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: remember wherever the mom and dad are. They haven't reported

528
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 2: her missing, are they the per? I mean, we have

529
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: to look at the harsh facts in addition to the

530
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: heartbreaking nature of a five year old little girl dead,

531
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: wrapped in blankets and garbage bags, put in a rollerboard,

532
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: and thrown out in a pasture. This little child had

533
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: some sort of an ailment. Take a listen to our

534
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: cut eight our friends at twelve news.

535
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 22: Investigators are releasing a picture of a feeding tube that was.

536
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 7: Found on that little girl's body.

537
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 22: The skeletal remains of a little girl, her pink dress,

538
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 22: and blankets all dumped on the side of the road

539
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 22: like trash. Now, this picture of the little girl's feeding

540
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 22: tube is being released publicly for the first time as

541
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 22: investigators in Texas try to figure out the girl's death.

542
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 22: Madison Sheriff Travis Neely was at the scene.

543
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 6: It was a weekend. I think it was a Saturday.

544
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 6: I was at home doing odds and.

545
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: Ends at home doing odds and ends when the sheriff

546
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 2: Sheriff Neelie is called out to this pasture. Significantly, this

547
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 2: child had a feeding tube. The most vulnerable and helpless,

548
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: a little taught five year old girl with a feeding tube.

549
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: Now did.

550
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 3: Take a listen to more from our friends at twelve News.

551
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 22: The call came in about skeletal remains in a pasture

552
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 22: off a highway on Interstate forty five between Dallas and Houston.

553
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 22: Experts say the girl who was between the ages of

554
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 22: two and six, likely suffered from a condition called micronathia,

555
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 22: affecting her ability to eat on her own and she

556
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 22: needed lifelong medical attention. Forensic artists from the National Center

557
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 22: for Missing and Exploited Children used a CT scan of

558
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 22: the girl's skull, so you create these images of what

559
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 22: she may have looked like to help jog someone's memory.

560
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: A CAT scan on this child's head to create a composite.

561
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: I have personally commandeered composites of unidentified murder victims. We

562
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: did not have use of a cat scan. That is amazing,

563
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 2: but now we know this little girl found with a

564
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: feeding tube. I want to circle back Dorian Bond orv.

565
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: Miller with the idea of whether a feeding tube or

566
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: medical paraphernalia can be tracked with some sort of for

567
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: lack of a better phrase, a then number on it,

568
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: like on a pacemaker or an AFIB device. They have

569
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,959
Speaker 2: numbers on them and you can track to whom that

570
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: particular device was given. But I want to find out

571
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 2: about micro nathia. What is that, doctor Gallagher.

572
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 18: Micro Nazia is a developmental delay in the formation of

573
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 18: the job. So generally it's a very very small jaw

574
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 18: maybe incapable of chewing, but typically what causes it is

575
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 18: sometimes it's an injury to that area, you know, at

576
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 18: a very young age, or there are some genetic diseases

577
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 18: that have micronathia or poorly developed jaw you know, as

578
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 18: part of their genetic makeup. It could be a genetic problem,

579
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 18: much like down syndrome is a genetic problem. There are

580
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 18: certain other diseases and conditions that have that feature to

581
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 18: the micronathia. It could also mean that instead of an

582
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 18: injury or developmental problem, the child could have been exposed

583
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 18: to a toxin at a very early age, or even

584
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 18: a caustic agent such as dreno bleach, something in that area,

585
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 18: you know, that would cause that poorly developed jaw you know,

586
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 18: to express itself.

587
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 3: Micro Nafia is that you're saying, doctor Gallagher.

588
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 18: Right, yeah, micro nathia micro meaning small nathia meaning jaw,

589
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 18: So basically small jaw, but it's because of a developmental

590
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 18: problem with it. That is what this child is experiencing

591
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 18: and most likely why they needed the gastric tube or

592
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 18: G tube or feeding tube.

593
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 3: Well, it seems to me.

594
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 2: If her ailment is simply a malformed lower jaw. Couldn't

595
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 2: that be fixed with kids? Try to surgery?

596
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 18: Well, it could be a one of it could be

597
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 18: one of the problems she has in a larger genetic

598
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 18: problem that she has in a larger genetic disease. There

599
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 18: are certain diseases called Pataus syndrome or Edward syndrome that

600
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 18: there's many, many other problems they have, including the jaw.

601
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 18: So just fixing the jaw isn't necessarily going to fix

602
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 18: the problem. So reconstructing the jaw, no, not at somebody

603
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 18: who's that age, because they're still growing, you know, So

604
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 18: it would be surgery upon surgery upon surgery, you know,

605
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 18: as they get older, you know, into their teenage years,

606
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 18: into their adult years. So it would be it would

607
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 18: be serial surgeries to get that corrected in the right way.

608
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: What more do we know about the evidence as it

609
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 2: relates to this tiny girl's microme, Nafia take a listen

610
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: to our friends Katie or k.

611
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 4: Forensic testing shows the girl was between the ages of

612
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 4: two and five, her body underdeveloped, and she suffered from

613
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 4: a serious medical condition.

614
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 5: Inside of the bones and the container was a pig tube,

615
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 5: which is a medical tube that is inserted medically through

616
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 5: the ribs for feeding in the stomach, feed liquids with.

617
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 4: The SERB says that feeding tube is the biggest lead

618
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 4: right now.

619
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 3: The stock number was still on it.

620
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 4: Investigators tracked down the company who made it to see

621
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 4: what hospital it was sent to. Hopefully hospital records will

622
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,919
Speaker 4: reveal who the little girl was and who left her here.

623
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 3: I find it.

624
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: Really hard to believe Dafney Young, that we've got the age,

625
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 2: an approximate age, a rollerboard, her clothing, a blanket, and

626
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 2: a feeding tube that was sorted through her ribs with

627
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: a stock number audit and we can't identify this child.

628
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 9: It's a downright bizarre because she was in a healthcare

629
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 9: system for a spell. Doctors, nurses, text pop who clean

630
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 9: the rooms. She had a very visual disability that would

631
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 9: have been made her easy to remember. She was tiny

632
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 9: and to describe such a petite little girl. She may

633
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 9: have had issues of failure to thrive that medical professionals

634
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 9: would be paying attention to because the body may be smaller,

635
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 9: she may be even older but had trouble eating and

636
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 9: the nutrition piece of this may have been difficult. And

637
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 9: also we know that children with disabilities are four times

638
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 9: more likely to be abused, and thirty three percent of

639
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 9: those have medical conditions. So often folks working in hospitals

640
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 9: have been properly are also being very careful about assuring

641
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 9: the bonding with an infant that has special needs during

642
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 9: those early pregnancy times where they're just trying to make

643
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 9: sure that things are cop aesthetic with the mother and

644
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 9: the father and the child in these circumstances. So it

645
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 9: felt like there should have been so many eyes. And

646
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 9: I'm just wondering why no one is coming forward or.

647
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 3: Mailer joining us right now.

648
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: Criminal defense attorney, you've handled a lot of cases, or

649
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: what happens to parents just get tired of taking care

650
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 2: of a sick child and they just kill.

651
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 10: It, you know, as a former prosecutor like you and

652
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 10: then a criminal defense attorney that I'm doing now, I

653
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 10: think it's fair to say that dead is one of

654
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 10: the possible causes in this particular case. Don't forget that

655
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 10: the cause of death was undetermined by the medical examiner

656
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 10: in this case.

657
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 6: We don't know that.

658
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 10: The child died as a result of foul play or

659
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 10: of natural causes. And I have to tell you this

660
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 10: thing with the illnes this and the feeding tube tells

661
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 10: me one thing that she was not a local child,

662
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 10: because I guarantee you that the law enforcement authorities to

663
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 10: hospitals then I would say, several hundred miles of this

664
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 10: town of Madisonville to see if they had any patient

665
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 10: care with these particular things that disease itself and the

666
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 10: insertion of a feeding tube. I guarantee you that that

667
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 10: was done, and nothing apparently has come up in all

668
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 10: these years that would lead them to believe that they

669
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 10: were able to find somebody based upon a local ill

670
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 10: child that they would now be able to Deathie.

671
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 2: Let me throw a legal phrase at e Dorian Bond.

672
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: Dorian Bond joining us from Bond Investigations dot com. You

673
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: just heard something Erv Miller say, and here's the legal

674
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 2: term natural causes. My rear end. If this child had

675
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: died of natural causes, don't you know they would have

676
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 2: taken her to the hospital to try to save her life,

677
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 2: give it her a burial. That's totally a sorry, ur Miller.

678
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 2: This child did not die of natural causes. And they thought, oh, oh,

679
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 2: that's just like top mom Casey Anthy going oh yeah,

680
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: Canty drowned in the pool.

681
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: So what you had your dad or.

682
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 2: You put her in a garbage bag and throw in

683
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 2: a swamp. That's a lie. This child did not die

684
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: of natural causes.

685
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 16: Yeah, natural causes is kind of uh. You can just

686
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 16: add a lot of a lot of things to it

687
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 16: in natural causes. If you fell off of a building,

688
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 16: it's a natural cause, but of course its force trauma.

689
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 16: But it could be natural causes because they had a

690
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 16: heart attack when they stand on the edge of a

691
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 16: building or something. You never know.

692
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 17: So that's I mean, I think once you wrap over,

693
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 17: you wrap a child up in a in a garbage bag,

694
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 17: put it in the suitcase, and put it in a field,

695
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 17: and things like that. We want to understand what happened

696
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 17: before it got to that point, and the medical issues

697
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 17: and the breathe, the feeding tube, things like that.

698
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 16: That's a good place to start an investigate.

699
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 2: Oh man, you are so right, Dorian Bond and doctor

700
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 2: Carl and Manley. I just think about this little child,

701
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 2: this little five year old girl who's already struggling with

702
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: a malformed jaw in life, she can't eat properly, and

703
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 2: now she's dead. Why do parents pick on torture and

704
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 2: abuse the child that is disabled.

705
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 15: It's such a good question. Now, san This is not

706
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 15: meant in any way to say it's appropriate to ever

707
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 15: abuse a child. Children who are who have disabilities. Child

708
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 15: abuse neglect is reported to be three percent to ten

709
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 15: percent higher in that population, and I believe that there

710
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 15: are several reasons. One, the child, especially child with disabilities,

711
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 15: can't report what's happening. They often are so compromised they

712
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 15: can't report it. Second, we often see and abuse children

713
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 15: and I worked in juvenile probation for several years. The

714
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 15: children are so afraid that even if they are able

715
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 15: to explain what's going on, but I'm not afraid of

716
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 15: losing that primary caregiver. When we look at the parents,

717
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 15: the parents are often so compromised mental health in mental

718
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 15: health ways and children who have disabilities. Depending upon the

719
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 15: nature of the disabilities, it can be extremely tiring and taxing,

720
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 15: and the parents often do not have the resources and

721
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 15: the support they need to get stable and in some

722
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 15: cases at what they do is to harm the child, react,

723
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 15: take their frustration out on the child, and the child

724
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 15: ends up dead like this, poor little thing.

725
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 2: Doctor carl and Manley. Not what I wanted to hear,

726
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: but true. If you know or thank you know anything

727
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,919
Speaker 2: about this poor little girl, please call nine three six

728
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: three four eight twenty seven fifty five. Repeat nine three six,

729
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: three four eight twenty seven fifty five.

730
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 3: Goodbye friend,