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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: Some of us in the newsroom have spent the past

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Speaker 2: few days at Africa's biggest mining conference in Cape Town

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Speaker 2: Mining and Daba against a global backdrop.

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Speaker 3: Of strong demand for critical minerals.

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Speaker 1: Most of the old non mines are gradually declining in grade,

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Speaker 1: most of the easy minds of the world have already

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Speaker 1: been found, but there's tremendous expiration potentials, in particular on

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Speaker 1: the African continent. The supply world demand.

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Speaker 2: There's certainly a sense of optimism on the ground about

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Speaker 2: this commodity's boom cycle, as we talked about last week,

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Speaker 2: but many are wondering whether high prices can lead to

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Speaker 2: more investment and in turn help be the key to

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Speaker 2: growing Africa's mining sector and industrializing the continent.

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Speaker 3: At the same time, I see.

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Speaker 4: More opportunity than risk, I have to say, because in

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Speaker 4: the last year, and really it has just been in

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Speaker 4: the last year, the whole landscape has changed because fundamentally,

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Speaker 4: what has happened is that governments have recognized how important

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Speaker 4: minerals are to any of their national security goals, whether

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Speaker 4: that's defense, energy, industrialization. So that has brought with it

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Speaker 4: a level of support that the mining industry.

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Speaker 5: Has not seen in decades from governments.

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Speaker 2: On this episode of The Next Africa Podcast, we'll look

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Speaker 2: at the big stories that came out of Mining and

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Speaker 2: DABA and why investors are still bullish on African minerals.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer Zabasaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

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Speaker 2: bringing you one story each week from the continent driving

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Speaker 2: the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: can provide. Joining us this week are Bloomberg reporters Matthew

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Speaker 2: Hill and William Klows, who have been with us all

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Speaker 2: throughout the week at Mining and DABA in Cape Town. Guys,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us. It has been

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Speaker 2: a hectic one. Let's just start with this. Last week

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Speaker 2: we were talking to two of our colleagues about the

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Speaker 2: growing strength of gold investment on the continent. But of course,

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Speaker 2: as you both know, it's not the only thing that's

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Speaker 2: getting the mining sector excited. Matt andwell, you've been at

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Speaker 2: Mining and DABA for several years. I wonder if you

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Speaker 2: compare the previous years you've been at this event to

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Speaker 2: this year, how would you assess the mood.

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Speaker 3: Maybe, Matt, do you want to start.

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Speaker 6: Cape Town is absolutely boomtown at the moment.

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Speaker 7: There are thousands of people.

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Speaker 6: Coming from all around the world, perhaps more than ever,

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Speaker 6: given this clamoring that we've seen for critical minerals in

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Speaker 6: Africa's critical minerals. In particular, from conversations that I've had

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Speaker 6: with people this week, there's been a couple of surprises

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Speaker 6: expressed about how many delegates they are from the US

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Speaker 6: this year.

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Speaker 7: For example, I don't know what have you been hearing, Will.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's pretty busy and bustling. I've been to these

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Speaker 5: things on and off.

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Speaker 8: Over seven or a years, and it's got much bigger

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Speaker 8: in recent years.

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Speaker 5: I mean physically bigger.

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Speaker 8: They need twice as much space for the people, the stands,

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Speaker 8: meeting rooms and balls. So I think that reflects the

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Speaker 8: sort of growing interest in this critical minerals. It's obviously anecdotal,

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Speaker 8: but I've had several conversations with mining industry types who

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Speaker 8: said in Daba used to be a bit of a jolly.

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Speaker 5: For them, a bit of fun.

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Speaker 8: They didn't pack their schedules too tight so they can

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Speaker 8: enjoy the Capetown sun in February. But now it's all work, work, work,

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Speaker 8: because there are deals to be done and business to

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Speaker 8: be one.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, it's definitely a higher tempo than it used

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Speaker 5: to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, someone who's telling me they haven't even been able

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Speaker 2: to see the sun because they've been in the convention

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Speaker 2: center so long. But I think, as you guys are

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Speaker 2: both alluding to, it reflects the growing excitement really in

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Speaker 2: the industry more broadly. But what do you think it

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Speaker 2: is that is really drawing people to this event? Is

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Speaker 2: it the booming commodity cycle? Is it the global ev

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Speaker 2: you know, the shift to AI that many people are

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Speaker 2: talking about, and the minerals that are needed.

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Speaker 3: What is the focus for the industry.

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Speaker 9: So yeah, I think obviously it helps composite record prices

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Speaker 9: and gold at record prices, but sort of I would say,

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Speaker 9: trying to ensure supply, adequate supply of these minerals, and

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Speaker 9: preferably that that supply is not too concentrated in one country.

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Speaker 5: You know, there's lots of.

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Speaker 8: Research that comes across our desks and it comes with

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Speaker 8: different numbers, but what is really consistent is that whether

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Speaker 8: it's copper, lithium, coobalt, manganese, graphite, we're going to need

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Speaker 8: to mine and refine quite a lot more of it.

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Speaker 8: To meet that demand, and because of things like the

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Speaker 8: electrification of transportation or heating, you know, which for instance

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Speaker 8: requires a massive build out of electricity grids, or even

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Speaker 8: the growing market share of electric vehicles, or they're just

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Speaker 8: being more solar panels and more wind turbines. All of

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Speaker 8: these things are just mentioned. They're very metals intensive, so governments, industries,

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Speaker 8: they're very keen for investment in reliable supply mining more

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Speaker 8: than that, especially for the US and Europe, it's a

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Speaker 8: problem for them that China dominates the processing and refining

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Speaker 8: of so many.

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Speaker 5: Of these materials.

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Speaker 8: They've got China's for hugely commanding positions in the value

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Speaker 8: chains of wherever you look, copper, cobalt, lysium, rare earths,

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Speaker 8: and they've been investing billions and billions in Africa for years,

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Speaker 8: places like Zimbabwe and Congo so that the cobalt or

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Speaker 8: lysium mind there can be sent to China to be

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Speaker 8: turned into battery grade chemicals or battery PAGs and finally

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Speaker 8: electric vehicles.

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Speaker 5: Things like that.

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Speaker 7: Do you listen to.

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Speaker 8: US or European executives and politicians, and as Matt says,

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Speaker 8: there's a lot of them here. There's a big emphasis

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Speaker 8: on developing Western supply chains for these metals, being less

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Speaker 8: reliant on China for these mineral products, and for many

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Speaker 8: that will involve ambitions to source minerals mined in Africa

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Speaker 8: do a certain amount of processing here in Africa before

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Speaker 8: shipping the material onto plants and factories in the West

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Speaker 8: that for the most part don't really exist yet, but

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Speaker 8: governments want to develop them to reindustrialize their economies and

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Speaker 8: catch up as ground lost China.

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Speaker 6: That's an excellent point that will make it's a very

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Speaker 6: steep learning curve for Western economies because mining over the

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Speaker 6: past few decades to a great extent, has not been

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Speaker 6: the flavor of the month.

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Speaker 7: Suddenly it is.

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Speaker 6: And just to put Africa in the global context, jen

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Speaker 6: you spoke to the head of Africa Finance Corps earlier

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Speaker 6: this week about the study that they just published which

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Speaker 6: found that Africa has twenty percent of the globe's mineral

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Speaker 6: wealth and of that eight point six trillion dollars remains undeveloped.

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Speaker 6: So if you are looking for these critical minerals, Africa

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Speaker 6: is the place where you have to be right.

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Speaker 2: And what was interesting about that, Matt, was that Soamila

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Speaker 2: Zubru was saying there is an opportunity there, of course

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Speaker 2: to serve the export market, but then also to serve

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Speaker 2: what is critical and strategic for Africa, right, and so

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Speaker 2: sort of reframing what this idea of criticality means, which

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Speaker 2: sort of leads me to my next question for you, Matt,

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Speaker 2: and it's this idea of collaboration and partnership driven development

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Speaker 2: as we see this shifting world order, how does that

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Speaker 2: actually work, especially in an industry like mining, and as

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Speaker 2: well was just pointing out China has dominated this, at

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Speaker 2: least production of this on the African continent for decades.

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Speaker 3: So what are you hearing about how this could work?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess like one way to look at that

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Speaker 6: is when you consider that the copper price has shot

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Speaker 6: up above thirteen thousand dollars a ton, which is more

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Speaker 6: than double what it was just a few years ago.

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Speaker 6: Almost inconceivable how quickly the price has climbed, and how

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Speaker 6: much demand there is for copper. Anything that involves electricity

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Speaker 6: has to have copper, and Africa, the Central African copper world,

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Speaker 6: is the one place in the world where copper production

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Speaker 6: has been growing quite rapidly and will continue to do

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Speaker 6: so in the coming years, So that's kind of forced

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Speaker 6: people who want copper to look at Central Africa countries

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Speaker 6: like Democratic Republic of Congo and Zambia especially, And what

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Speaker 6: it's also done is given leverage to these countries about

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Speaker 6: what happens with their copper, both in terms of the

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Speaker 6: production of it, the transportation of it, and the processing

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Speaker 6: of it. And we've seen a great rise in willingness

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Speaker 6: for other countries like the US, the EU and China

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Speaker 6: to develop logistics as a partnership, not as lending money

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Speaker 6: to these African governments who are already overburdened with.

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Speaker 7: Debt to build roads or railway supports.

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Speaker 6: Or whatever, but actually partnering with them to develop this

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Speaker 6: infrastructure that then operates on commercial terms. We've seen the

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Speaker 6: Lobito Corridor, which is backed by the US, the refurbishing a.

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Speaker 7: Railway line that runs from the Atlantic.

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Speaker 6: Port of Lobito and Angola all the way to the

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Speaker 6: copper mining area in Congo, and there's plans to then

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Speaker 6: connect that onwards into Zambia.

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Speaker 7: On the other side of.

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Speaker 6: The copper belt, we've got the Tazara railway line, which

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Speaker 6: was built by China, Zambia and Tanzania back in the seventies,

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Speaker 6: but since fallen into disrepair, those three governments are now

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Speaker 6: working together to refurbish that line and bring it back

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Speaker 6: to life. Chinese consortium that's doing that is bringing nearly

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Speaker 6: one point four billion dollars of their own money to

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Speaker 6: bring that railway line back into play in partnership with

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Speaker 6: the Zambiaan and Tanzania and government. So there's been kind

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Speaker 6: of like a new way of looking at these resources

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Speaker 6: and how everyone can share the benefits, perhaps more evenly.

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Speaker 2: Matt and Will stick with me both when we come back,

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Speaker 2: we will have more of some of the themes that

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Speaker 2: came out from this year's mining in Dada in Cape Town.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back today on the podcast. We're continuing our look

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Speaker 2: at Africa's natural resources as we assess the mood of

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Speaker 2: the twenty twenty six mining and Daba in Cape Town.

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Speaker 2: Matthew Hill and William Clouds are.

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Speaker 3: Still with me.

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Speaker 2: Will You've reported extensively on the Democratic Republic of Congo.

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Speaker 2: Considering a lot of the reporting that we've been hearing

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Speaker 2: about the government and the potential minerals deal, the deal

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Speaker 2: with the US, do they feel like they have leverage

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Speaker 2: at this particular moment to enact the best deals that

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Speaker 2: would work for them.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, more more than they did in the past, I

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Speaker 10: would say so. And you mentioned, you know, the US

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Speaker 10: under Trump administration has broke at this peace steal between

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Speaker 10: Congo and Rwanda that is supposed to end decades of

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Speaker 10: deadly conflict in mist in Congo.

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Speaker 8: As part of that, there was a separate minerals partnership

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Speaker 8: between the US and Congo which is designed to give

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Speaker 8: US investors, US companies preferential access to some of Congo's

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Speaker 8: very good metal deposits. And this is obviously because the

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Speaker 8: Trump administration is prioritizing shuring our US supplies to critical

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Speaker 8: minerals and reducing dependence on China.

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Speaker 5: So this partnership is part of that.

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Speaker 8: And we are already seeing in the space of a

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Speaker 8: couple of months some deal.

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Speaker 5: Making towards the US and American companies.

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Speaker 8: There are flows of copper being directed by the Congolese

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Speaker 8: states towards the US, probably used to China. A US

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Speaker 8: government backed investment vehicle called Ryan CMC has announced a

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Speaker 8: preliminary deal to acquire stakes in Glencore's Congolese copper.

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Speaker 5: Cobot Minds and a few other American companies. What are they?

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Speaker 5: A company called Vertus Minerals.

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Speaker 8: Have struck a deal to buy a Congoluse company. It's

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Speaker 8: in the process of building a very large cobolt mine.

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Speaker 8: The government of Congo, like the government of Zambia, is very,

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Speaker 8: very very keen to diversify. They don't want to kick

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Speaker 8: the Chinese out, but they would like to diversify the

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Speaker 8: sources of investment. And having a US and to a

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Speaker 8: lesser extent, Europe that is now less averse to investing

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Speaker 8: in these places that were previously considered a bit a

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Speaker 8: bit risky definitely provides pretty decent leverage to the government

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Speaker 8: to those countries.

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Speaker 6: And just to underline that point, when I was speaking

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Speaker 6: to the Zambian Finance ministry yesterday, he stressed exactly that

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Speaker 6: that it's not good for the country to have too

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Speaker 6: much investment from any one place in the world, but

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Speaker 6: to sort of spread the risk and have investment from everyone.

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Speaker 6: The Zambian and Congo governments have realized that they have

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Speaker 6: much more leverage now and where previous governments perhaps kind

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Speaker 6: of leaned into resource nationalization in terms of like trying

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Speaker 6: to extract as much tax revenue as they could possibly

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Speaker 6: get out of the mining companies to the point where

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Speaker 6: they chase some of them out and trying to grab

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Speaker 6: shareholdings in companies. The governments, at least in Zambia and

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Speaker 6: perhaps to an extent in Congo are being much more

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Speaker 6: strategic about how they're looking at their resources and this

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Speaker 6: idea of resource nationalization where the state mining companies of

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Speaker 6: each country, each government are now looking to tap into

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Speaker 6: the equity the minority states that they have in the

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Speaker 6: minds in their countries and say to the majority shareholders, look,

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Speaker 6: we own x percent of that MIND. Give us on

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Speaker 6: commercial terms whatever the percentage of copper that the MIND

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Speaker 6: is producing equivalent to our equity stake, and we will

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Speaker 6: then take that copper, will pay for it on commercial terms,

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Speaker 6: and we'll take that cop and trade it with whoever

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Speaker 6: we want on whatever terms we want. And so it

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Speaker 6: does give them that leverage and choice about where that

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Speaker 6: cop goes to.

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Speaker 2: And Matt, I know you and I were speaking a

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Speaker 2: bit to the Botswana Minister of Minds a little bit

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Speaker 2: about how they're thinking about that as it pertains to

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Speaker 2: diamonds as well. So that's a really interesting point you

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Speaker 2: brought up there before we let you guys go. I

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Speaker 2: wonder what your takeaway has been throughout the week. What

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Speaker 2: is it that you're going to be watching out for.

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Speaker 2: As you mentioned, it's been quite a lot of talking

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Speaker 2: and walking and meetings and rhetoric and discussions and reporting

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Speaker 2: that you guys have been doing. But I wonder if

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Speaker 2: there is one thing to sum up the week, what

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Speaker 2: you would say, Well.

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Speaker 8: So top level in terms of demand, there's obviously this

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Speaker 8: classic superpowers between US and China, with the US acknowledging

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Speaker 8: how far ahead China is in mining, processing, refining of

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Speaker 8: the minerals. For African mining ministers, if you listen to

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Speaker 8: officials from Congos in Bobwe, Guinea and others, the priority

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Speaker 8: is that scrambles for African resources went badly for Africa.

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Speaker 8: So there's a really strong emphasis on not being dictated

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Speaker 8: to by outsider. It's and buffeted about by the needs

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Speaker 8: of others. And I focused on trying to maximize economic

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Speaker 8: benefits for the countries where the minerals found, and what

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Speaker 8: they're talking about most of the time is insisting on

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Speaker 8: more processing, more manufacturing in their countries. You know, I

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Speaker 8: think it makes sense that I've heard a few approving

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Speaker 8: comments this week about OPEK and the Middle East asserting

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Speaker 8: itself over the oil industry all those decades ago. It's

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Speaker 8: about trying to make sure that this time around, their

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Speaker 8: mineral resources, which the world wants so much, drives to

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Speaker 8: kind of economic development that, for example, these minutesters see

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Speaker 8: when they go to the Gulf.

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Speaker 7: That's a super important point for me.

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Speaker 6: Also, I think that twenty twenty six could be the

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Speaker 6: year or maybe the year where the rubber hits the

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Speaker 6: road in terms of the US and the EU putting

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Speaker 6: them money into the infrastructure like the Lobito Corridor. The

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Speaker 6: President of Zambia said that work after he lost count

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Speaker 6: of how many conferences and workshops and talk shops that

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Speaker 6: have been about investing in the Lobito Corridor, that this

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Speaker 6: is the year when the brick and mortar is actually

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Speaker 6: going to be put into the ground. I think on

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Speaker 6: the congalse side too, with all the deals that have

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Speaker 6: been negotiated and struck, people are going to be watching

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Speaker 6: very closely about whether that does actually hit the ground.

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Speaker 6: And even in Zambia, where one of the big US companies,

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Speaker 6: Cobalt Metals, should be taking some pretty critical decisions on

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Speaker 6: developing their massive mining project in Zambia too, So I

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Speaker 6: think this time next year we could be able to

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Speaker 6: tell much more clearly whether the European Union and the

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Speaker 6: US rarely do mean business about doing what they've said

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Speaker 6: that they will do in Africa.

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Speaker 2: And you can read all of our coverage of the

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Speaker 2: mining and DABA across Bloomberg platforms. Now here's some of

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Speaker 2: the other stories we're watching across the region. This week,

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Speaker 2: Kenyan venture firm Delta forty, backed by billionaire George Soros,

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Speaker 2: raised twenty million dollars to expand its financing for startups

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Speaker 2: across the continent, and petrosin Senegal's state owned oil company,

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Speaker 2: plans to conduct its own one hundred million dollar exploration

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Speaker 2: campaign this year to discover crude in onshore fields. You

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Speaker 2: can find these stories across Bloomberg, including the Next African Newsletter.

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Speaker 2: Will of course put a link to that in the

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Speaker 2: show notes. This program was produced by Adrian Bradley and

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Speaker 2: tiwa Adebayo. Don't forget to follow and review this show

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Speaker 2: wherever you usually get your podcasts, But for now I'm

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Speaker 2: Jennifer Zabasaja.

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Speaker 3: Thanks as always for listening