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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have.

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Speaker 1: Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and

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Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy. Zeph

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Speaker 1: and bast start changing with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Jamie, would you like to come eat some sandwiches

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Speaker 3: with me in my room full of taxidermy birds?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 4: I felt personally attacked by that scene as someone who

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Speaker 4: recently asked you to take care of the taxidermy bird

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Speaker 4: that I taxidermied this year.

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Speaker 1: I was like, that is I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, there are a lot of communities that are poorly

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Speaker 4: represented in this movie, but true, I have yet to

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Speaker 4: see the essay on taxidermists.

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Speaker 3: Respond, well, maybe that's your responsibility.

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Speaker 4: Exidermists are regular people, just like you and me, And

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Speaker 4: I think that the one thing that Norman Babs does

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Speaker 4: correctly say is that it's actually a very affordable hobby.

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Speaker 4: People think it's going to be expensive. The only real

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Speaker 4: expense is your time and your ability to wish to

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Speaker 4: dissect things. Yeah, but I think that as long as

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Speaker 4: you're doing it legally and good. So sorry to start

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Speaker 4: with my stumping for fellow taxidermists.

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Speaker 3: No no, no, please, I.

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Speaker 1: Used to a symbol in a Hitchcock movie.

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Speaker 4: I mean it's good, but taxidermists didn't recover for years

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Speaker 4: after this movie.

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Speaker 3: Maybe yes, it protected class of people taxidermists.

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Speaker 4: The wild thing is there's like all these laws around taxidermy,

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Speaker 4: which is good, but essentially you cannot and should not

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Speaker 4: taxidermy an animal that is in any way endangered or protected.

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Speaker 4: There's all these laws around it. But you can taxidermy

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Speaker 4: any animal that is technically an invasive species as long

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Speaker 4: as they are already dead.

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Speaker 1: So there's all.

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Speaker 4: These complicated rules. But when it was explained to me

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Speaker 4: by my gorgeous, amazing taxidermy instructor, I.

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Speaker 1: Was like, wow, it all does make sense.

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Speaker 4: But she sources the birds that we taxidermied in her

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Speaker 4: class like they were like ethically, I don't know. I

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Speaker 4: mean they were invasive species and on a farm and

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Speaker 4: killing animals, and so I guess then you're allowed to.

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Speaker 1: Kill the birds.

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Speaker 4: But she bought the birds from this guy who like

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Speaker 4: owned a farm in Wisconsin, and she's been buying European

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Speaker 4: starling bird corpses from this man for a decade and

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Speaker 4: he has never asked her what she's using the birds for.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that so scary? He's like that, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to know?

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Speaker 2: Is why?

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Speaker 1: Just if the check clears, it's all good.

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Speaker 3: Also, it all comes full circle because someone who had

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Speaker 3: a farm in Wisconsin, ed Gean, aka the person who

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Speaker 3: the book of this movie was loosely based on.

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Speaker 1: So no, well not mister ed that's a different guy.

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Speaker 1: That's a horse.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it all comes full circle.

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Speaker 1: It's true.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. I think

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Speaker 3: that was a good trip, perfect, flawless, no notes. My

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Speaker 3: name is Caitlin Derante, my name is Jamie Loftus, and

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Speaker 3: this is the podcast where we discuss either taxidermy or

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Speaker 3: looking at your favorite movies from an intersectional feminist lens.

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Speaker 3: That long conversation about taxidermy mostly past the Bechdel test,

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Speaker 3: I believe, until we got to the pharm owner.

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Speaker 1: I think it did. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And also on the record, our friend Bryant is watching

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Speaker 4: my bird.

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Speaker 1: I checked in on him a couple of times. He's

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Speaker 1: doing good. Glad to hear it. But that didn't pass

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Speaker 1: the Bechtel test. But why is that?

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Speaker 4: It's a media metric that we use as a jumping

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Speaker 4: off point for discussion. Certainly not the be all and

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Speaker 4: all of discussion at all, but Kitlin.

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Speaker 1: What the hell is it?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel,

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Speaker 3: sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test, first appearing in Alison

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Speaker 3: bechtel comic Dex To Watch Out For in nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 3: Intended originally as just like a one off goof a

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Speaker 3: bit a joke that has since been kind of co

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Speaker 3: opted into this pretty widespread media metric. There are many

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Speaker 3: versions of it. The one that we use is this,

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Speaker 3: two characters of a marginalized gender have to have names,

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Speaker 3: they have to speak to each other, and their conversation

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Speaker 3: has to be about something other than a man, and

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Speaker 3: ideally for us, it's a big meaty conversation. Yeah, okay, sure,

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Speaker 3: sorry to say meaty.

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Speaker 4: Now, as a member of the tax star of his community,

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Speaker 4: I know a thing or two about meat.

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Speaker 3: Sure. So that's our show, today's episode. It's it's a big.

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Speaker 1: One, A long time coming, I think, yeah, because at

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Speaker 1: this point this show has been running long enough that

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Speaker 1: we've covered it lee.

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Speaker 4: One or so of the whatever considered the big director Ouvra.

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Speaker 1: Which is mostly white guys. It includes this one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but we've never covered this guy. And here we are.

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Speaker 1: The day has come.

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Speaker 4: We are covering nineteen sixty Alfred Hitchcock Psycho. It's true

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Speaker 4: and we have an amazing guest. I'm so excited for

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Speaker 4: our guests.

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Speaker 3: Yes, she is a film critic, podcaster, and columnist for

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Speaker 3: Total Film Magazine. It's Leila Latif.

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Speaker 5: Hi, Welcome, I'm so excited. Longtime listener, first time cooler, welcome.

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Speaker 1: Never stop calling.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, like this is not a soft landing.

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Speaker 3: This is heavy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm excited. This is a challenging movie in many

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Speaker 5: many regards, so it seems to be a different movie

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Speaker 5: every time I watch it.

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Speaker 4: It really is, I mean, and this is I think

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Speaker 4: part of the reason we haven't been acting avoiding Hitchcock.

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Speaker 4: But part of the reason that I've avoided it is

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Speaker 4: just logistically, there is so much written about this movie

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Speaker 4: and this director that you're like, how do you even

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Speaker 4: prepare for this episode?

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Speaker 1: And we're about to find out.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Jamie, you and I were both talking off

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Speaker 3: Mike about how we did a lot to prepare, like

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Speaker 3: the normal amount, but because there's just so much with

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Speaker 3: this movie. We feel like we've barely scratched the surface.

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Speaker 3: I kind of took approach where I was like, well,

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Speaker 3: there's just too much, so I'm going to do almost nothing.

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Speaker 1: Huh.

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Speaker 3: Except I read like Anthony perkins entire Wikipedia page. I

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Speaker 3: read a bunch of stuff about ed Gean. I listened

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Speaker 3: to part one of the Behind the Bastards episode on

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Speaker 3: Alfred Hitchcock. I obviously watched the movie several times.

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Speaker 1: I would say, that's not almost nothing. Why are you

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Speaker 1: being down with yourself? I was like, quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: You're right, it's like a working week.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a lot. Yeah, but I still feel

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Speaker 3: very unprepared.

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Speaker 4: I think it's kind of hard not to. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I think between the three of us, you know, we've

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Speaker 4: I think it's interesting with this movie. There's so many

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Speaker 4: ways into talking about it, and it just seems sort

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Speaker 4: of like what stands out to you personally that you're

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Speaker 4: kind of drawn to. I was really drawn to how

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Speaker 4: serial killers and like mental illness are portrayed in this

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Speaker 4: movie and how it influenced other movies.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we should just get into our personal histories.

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Speaker 4: Because when I was rewatching it I haven't seen this

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Speaker 4: movie in probably close to ten years, and I kind

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Speaker 4: of forgot how well we get to know Marian before

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Speaker 4: she dies, right, which there's a lot to talk about

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Speaker 4: with Marion for sure, which I feel like you wouldn't

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Speaker 4: know by the scenes from this movie that are the

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Speaker 4: most famous.

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Speaker 1: But we'll get to.

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Speaker 3: That, yeah, because it's just like she's getting stabbed.

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Speaker 4: But first let's get through what our personal history is

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Speaker 4: with I guess this movie and also just Alfred Hitchcock

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Speaker 4: in general.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Leila, what's your experience with the overall?

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Speaker 5: Psycho just feels like something that I'd like never not

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Speaker 5: seen in a weird way, like I think is like

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Speaker 5: by the time I came to it, I just like

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Speaker 5: I'd seen so many parodies and references, and I knew

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Speaker 5: exactly what was going to happen with like the chest

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Speaker 5: spinning around, and I knew that there was this whole

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Speaker 5: thing where you know, she kind of dies at this

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Speaker 5: like midway point and stuff. So like I had so

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Speaker 5: much knowledge coming into it, and I watched every horror

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Speaker 5: movie like way too young.

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Speaker 2: It is probably like seven when I watched this for

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Speaker 2: the first time.

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Speaker 5: Like it just feels like omnipresent in my life in

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Speaker 5: a weird way, but like as a result like coming

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Speaker 5: back to it, and I'm kind of like you, Jamie,

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Speaker 5: Like it probably been about ten years since I've seen

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Speaker 5: it last, but it feels like the parodies could kind

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Speaker 5: of like gotten away from it, And it was really

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Speaker 5: nice to come back to because I reimagined Marian because

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Speaker 5: it's kind of like what she'd been in the culture

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Speaker 5: is like Drew Barron more from The Scream basically of

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Speaker 5: like the big star who like shot gets killed off,

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Speaker 5: rather than like she's in it till like the midway point.

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Speaker 3: I would say, yeah, the first forty five minutes or so, and.

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Speaker 4: She has like in a whole arc. It's like, it's

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Speaker 4: why I totally I didn't remember.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it didn't feel like the rug pull that i'd

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Speaker 5: like remembered. Like I've still left this feeling like she

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Speaker 5: was the star of this movie. She was still the

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Speaker 5: protagonist rather than just some kind of plot twist device.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Jamie, how about you?

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Speaker 4: My history with this movie, same thing. I mean, I

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Speaker 4: found myself as I was watching it this time. It

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Speaker 4: surprised me in a lot of ways. And it also

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Speaker 4: I don't know This feels like one of the few

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Speaker 4: movies where it's impossible to have a clean reading of

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Speaker 4: it because everyone knows what happens at the midpoint of

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Speaker 4: the movie. I would love to be able to see

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Speaker 4: this movie and not know that happens, but it's impossible.

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Speaker 4: By the time I saw it for the first time

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Speaker 4: in probably high school, everyone knows what happens, and I

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Speaker 4: think I remembered it as happening earlier in the movie.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean, it's like you, it's so cultural

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Speaker 4: osmosisy that everyone knows the chair turning, everyone knows the

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Speaker 4: shower scene, and so it's it's an interesting watch because

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Speaker 4: you can't not know that kind of against your will.

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Speaker 4: And I think my relationship with Hitchcock I was in

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Speaker 4: fifth grade. For I had this amazing teacher who for

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Speaker 4: some reason decided he was going to show a bunch

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Speaker 4: of nine year olds The Birds, and there were two

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Speaker 4: kids that peeded themselves during the movie. It's just it

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Speaker 4: was an iconic fifth grade experience. Every kid in that

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Speaker 4: class remember seeing The Birds. Parents were upset. My mom

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Speaker 4: was like, huh, and then I didn't sleep for like

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Speaker 4: a week. And so that's I think my most vivid

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Speaker 4: Hitchcock related movie, and then learned more about him as

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Speaker 4: a person as an adult. It's like a wild ride

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Speaker 4: with his work, which we can get into later. And also,

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Speaker 4: I mean I listened to the Hitchcock episodes of Behind

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Speaker 4: the Bastards when they first came out, and.

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Speaker 1: I mean, holy shit, I mean.

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Speaker 4: This literally said quote women are a nuisance. So there's

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Speaker 4: a lot to get into. But this movie, I think

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Speaker 4: I came away from it surprised and with way more

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Speaker 4: to talk about than I originally thought. I went so

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Speaker 4: excited to talk about it, Caitlin, was your history with

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Speaker 4: Psycho the Hitchcock expanded Universe.

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Speaker 3: I saw it for the first time in college. I

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Speaker 3: think when I was watching a bunch of Hitchcock for

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Speaker 3: the first time, and like you, Jamie, I already knew

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Speaker 3: the iconic means the twist at the end, you know,

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Speaker 3: just through cultural osmosis. And then I think I didn't

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Speaker 3: watch it since, but I will think about the movie

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Speaker 3: basically anytime, because in the past few years, the conversation

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Speaker 3: about trans representation in media is more present in the zeitgeist,

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Speaker 3: and part of that conversation is the representation of like

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Speaker 3: trans and or gender non conforming people as murderers in media,

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Speaker 3: and I'd be like, oh, Psycho, Like Psycho is such

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Speaker 3: an early example of that, so like it just like

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Speaker 3: comes to mind every time that particular topic gets brought up.

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Speaker 3: And then rewatching the movie, I was like, oh, yes, confirmed,

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Speaker 3: So that will be I imagine a huge part of

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Speaker 3: our discussion later on. But yeah, it's it's just weird

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Speaker 3: to me that such a huge like piece of cinema,

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Speaker 3: like an iconic piece of cinema, like such an influential

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Speaker 3: thing in American cinema that's so celebrated is also so

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Speaker 3: damaging and harmful to so many communities. So that's those

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Speaker 3: those are my initial thoughts on it. But yeah, I

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Speaker 3: haven't seen this movie. I think since I've watched it

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Speaker 3: that first time, probably like well over fifteen years ago.

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Speaker 3: But I generally like Hitchcock movies. It's weird, like I

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Speaker 3: like Strangers on a Train. I like Rear Window, I

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Speaker 3: like north By Northwest. I haven't seen Rope and a

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Speaker 3: few of his other like pretty major ones.

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Speaker 2: I'm with you, there are some like really tiny gems.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I about every decade I'll do like a

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Speaker 5: big Hitchcock rewatch and like the minor ones are so good,

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Speaker 5: like Lifeboat is amazing, rope Rocks, there's like.

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Speaker 2: Less problematic than Psycho in many regards.

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Speaker 5: But I think, like with that same nasty spirit, really

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Speaker 5: recommend Frenzy, which is basically his last good one. I mean,

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Speaker 5: and just like and I don't know, maybe it's like

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Speaker 5: my Britishness, but like I think he's like I love

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Speaker 5: his humor, Like There's a Lady Vanishes is so funny.

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Speaker 1: I never seen it.

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Speaker 2: It's really really funny.

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Speaker 5: And I always feel like humidates more than any other

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Speaker 5: genre of film, and like it's still like laugh at

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Speaker 5: loud funny and just stupid and like the best ways interesting.

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Speaker 4: I think we're having a conversation like this recently where

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Speaker 4: it's like, for all of this movie's difficult and often

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Speaker 4: just outright prejudiced ways of viewing the world.

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Speaker 1: It's a good movie.

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Speaker 4: And that's kind of why it has the cultural influence

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Speaker 4: that it does and why we're talking about it and

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Speaker 4: why it's like, I don't know, if you can make

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Speaker 4: a good movie and project those values, it's.

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Speaker 1: Kind of a scary amount of power to have.

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Speaker 4: I haven't done Hitchcock B Sides viewing before. I did

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Speaker 4: recently go back and watch the birds to see if

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Speaker 4: it was as scary as I remembered, and it was not.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty funny, though, it's a very fun It's terrible.

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Speaker 2: It's so bad.

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Speaker 1: Not good.

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Speaker 3: It's bad.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, try being nine god yeah.

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Speaker 5: Fair, But like it all kind of like brings the

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Speaker 5: question of like the kind of autistic male genius were

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Speaker 5: in a way like I'll do mental gymnastics to like

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Speaker 5: make Psycho okay, and like try and like justify it

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Speaker 5: to myself. I can in no way justify that, like

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Speaker 5: Tippy Hedron was like tortured to make the buds.

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Speaker 4: It's so popular, absolutely, yeah, yeah, And it's so interesting

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Speaker 4: that there was only a care about it in any

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Speaker 4: cultural way in like five years years ago, because as

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Speaker 4: far as I know, she had spoken about it before

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Speaker 4: and no one cared. And then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: when the Me Too movement started getting some momentum, all

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Speaker 4: of a sudden, people cared and we're like, I can't

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Speaker 4: believe I didn't know this, And.

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Speaker 3: It's like, well you could have a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, Well,

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Speaker 3: shall we take a quick break and then come back

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Speaker 3: to recap the movie. Let's do it all right, We'll

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Speaker 3: be right back, and we're back. Here is the recap

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Speaker 3: of Psycho. We are in Phoenix, Arizona. Ever heard of it?

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Speaker 3: And we meet Marion Crane that's Janet Lee, of course.

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Speaker 3: She is in a hotel room SMO coaching her boyfriend

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Speaker 3: Sam played by John Gavin. They are talking about getting married,

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Speaker 3: but they can't because he is in debt and he's

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Speaker 3: paying his ex his ex wife's alimony, and he can't

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Speaker 3: support her, and so they can't get married. Then we

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Speaker 3: see Marion at work at a real estate office where

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Speaker 3: a rich guy named mister Cassidy is there to buy

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Speaker 3: a house with a load of cash.

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Speaker 4: This fucking guy, this guy, he's so horrible. And then

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Speaker 4: he crossed into like campy territory for me when he

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Speaker 4: said I need a drinker, Rooney.

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Speaker 1: And he's like, well, what are we gonna do with

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Speaker 1: this guy?

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Speaker 2: He's just and it's just like tax evasion.

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Speaker 4: He's like, my daughter is my baby and my property.

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Speaker 4: I don't pay my taxes and I I want to

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Speaker 4: drink at work right now.

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Speaker 5: And I am such a terrible father that I assume

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Speaker 5: you can be an eighteen year old girl and never

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Speaker 5: had a sad day, And.

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Speaker 4: We learn all of this while he is sexually harassing

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Speaker 4: our protagonist.

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Speaker 1: It really is kind of an all timer.

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Speaker 4: And to be fair, the movie is aware that he's horrible,

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Speaker 4: but it was just like I didn't remember that character,

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Speaker 4: and I watched that scene three times because I was

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Speaker 4: just like, I don't know if I'm catching everything.

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Speaker 1: He's moving so fast he's Among.

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Speaker 3: The things is the fact that he has a lot

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Speaker 3: of cash of forty thousand dollars that he's just carrying around.

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Speaker 4: On him in nineteen sixty money, it's ninety six money

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Speaker 4: fucking juggled it.

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Speaker 5: You can just add a zero, which is very helpful mathwise,

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Speaker 5: So it's it's about four hundred, one.

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Speaker 3: Hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so houses were expensive back then, too.

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Speaker 1: Well that's like I'm probably a huge state.

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Speaker 3: Big ass house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, So point is he's got cash.

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Speaker 4: One thing I loved about Marian right from the jump

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Speaker 4: was that she is giving it about two percent at

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Speaker 4: her job. I feel like that is rare to see

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Speaker 4: in any movie in a way that the movie is

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Speaker 4: sort of ambivalent about, Like she comes back really late

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Speaker 4: to work because she was having sex and then she

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Speaker 4: leaves twenty minutes later.

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Speaker 1: She's like, oh, my head, and then like I gotta go.

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Speaker 4: Like I just that's how I acted at my jobs

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Speaker 4: in my early twenties, and I kind of was like,

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Speaker 4: maybe I should bring it back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, one seems bothered.

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Speaker 3: She's quietly quitting, no doubt about it.

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Speaker 5: She's given capitalism about the level of respect that it deserves.

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Speaker 4: Exactly, she does not give a shit, but she's worked

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Speaker 4: there for ten years. Like, you're just like, good for Marian, honestly,

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Speaker 4: like we should try less hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true read wealth, go for it, Marian.

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Speaker 3: That was her plan.

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Speaker 4: Also, yeah, what she does a victimless crime. I think

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Speaker 4: you're just like, yeah, steal forty thousand dollars for someone

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Speaker 4: who's actually her as to you. You know, he's already rich,

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Speaker 4: he's the worst.

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Speaker 3: Do it, yeah, for sure, steal, eat the rich, steal

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Speaker 3: from the rich, et cetera. So he comes in with

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Speaker 3: this forty thousand dollars. Marian's boss, mister Lowry, tells her

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Speaker 3: to take it directly to the bank. So Marian leaves

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Speaker 3: with the cash, but she doesn't go to the bank. Instead,

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Speaker 3: she packs the suitcase and heads out of town with

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Speaker 3: the money. On her way out, her boss sees Marion

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Speaker 3: in her car and he's like, hmm, that's weird, and

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Speaker 3: she's like, oh no, and then the string instruments are

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Speaker 3: playing loudly and it's an anxious moment. Then for a

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Speaker 3: while a cop is tailing her. He follows her to California,

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Speaker 3: where she trades in her car for another car in

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Speaker 3: a transaction that takes like five minutes because it's the sixties,

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Speaker 3: and then she takes off again in a hurry. She's driving,

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Speaker 3: it's dark, it's pouring rain, so she pulls over at

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Speaker 3: the Bates Motel, which big mistake.

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Speaker 1: Big mistake, babe.

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Speaker 4: I really appreciated in that whole sequence because even when

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Speaker 4: the scenes are like kind of weirdly long, it feels

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Speaker 4: very intentional and like, you just I didn't really remember

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Speaker 4: the last time I saw this movie how intentional.

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Speaker 1: This movie is about setting up.

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Speaker 4: How Marian has to navigate her way through the world

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Speaker 4: like as a woman and as like an attractive woman,

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Speaker 4: very very intentionally, and it's like it's I don't know,

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Speaker 4: I feel a time.

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Speaker 1: Where you could easily get away with showing.

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Speaker 4: Woman or any character really just kind of moving through

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Speaker 4: the world like ah hahi.

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Speaker 1: Whatever, and just like half assing it.

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Speaker 4: There is like a menacing undertone to how every man

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Speaker 4: in the story treats her right up to her arriving

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Speaker 4: at base motel, and then by Norman as well, and

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Speaker 4: that whole sequence where she's driving towards the motel and

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Speaker 4: you hear kind of her fantasizing about how people will

401
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Speaker 4: react to her disappearance and all this stuff. It's just

402
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Speaker 4: it's more than I remembered getting in terms of context

403
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Speaker 4: for who she is and why she's running.

404
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Speaker 3: And I thought it was cool, and it's something that

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Speaker 3: a lot of contemporary horror movies fail to do in

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Speaker 3: terms of like showing the unease in which a woman

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Speaker 3: moves about the world. People and particularly men around her

408
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Speaker 3: will be menacing and creepy, and in a lot of

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Speaker 3: like female protagonists in more modern horror movies, they're just like, what,

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Speaker 3: I don't even notice anything. Everything seems fine, no danger here,

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Speaker 3: nothing to worry about. In a way that always bugs

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Speaker 3: me because I'm like, that is not how women move

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Speaker 3: about the world. We're like very cognizant of the dangers

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Speaker 3: around And I feel like this movie successfully does that

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Speaker 3: in a way that a lot of other horror movies

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Speaker 3: do not.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's something that was really articulated pretty

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Speaker 5: beautifully in like the recent Barbie movie. Very different movie,

419
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Speaker 5: but like like that with women, like attention often just

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Speaker 5: has this like undertone of violence, and like obviously Marin

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Speaker 5: is a like ludicrously beautiful and glamorous woman. And there's

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Speaker 5: the what I found interesting about like because she's kind

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Speaker 5: of always moving with this undertone of violence, that there

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Speaker 5: is always this attention which has this like sinis to

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Speaker 5: like you said, menace edge to it, like that hyper

426
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Speaker 5: vigilance can of get her so far. So actually she

427
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 5: drops her guard whilst where with Norman in a way

428
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Speaker 5: that kind of makes sense if you've seen like her

429
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Speaker 5: journey so far, because of course he is being unsettling

430
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Speaker 5: and disturbing in a way that we can identify. But

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Speaker 5: that is simply every interaction she has with a.

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Speaker 2: Man to a certain degree up till that point.

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Speaker 4: Mm hmmm, and we see her like advocate for I

434
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Speaker 4: don't know, I like that it's like also clear that

435
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 4: she understands what's happening. She's kind of choosing her battles

436
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 4: as this sort of continues to happen. She chooses them

437
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 4: very intentionally, like with the cop where the cop is

438
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Speaker 4: arassing her. He wants to know what she's doing. Why

439
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Speaker 4: is she sleeping on the side of the road, And

440
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 4: she's just like, what have I done? Why do I

441
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 4: need to show you my license and registration?

442
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: What is necessary? Like why are you doing this?

443
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 4: And I really appreciate how it's such a hard balance

444
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 4: to strike, and I feel like it's really I don't know,

445
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 4: I was thinking about the Barbie movie as well.

446
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: I just said for the second time the very night.

447
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 4: But yeah, like striking the fact that she is, like

448
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 4: she's hyper competent, she's very aware of what's happening. But

449
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 4: being aware of what's happening is not necessarily enough to

450
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 4: protect you. And it felt like this movie did a

451
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 4: better job than I remembered at like making that clear

452
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 4: and striking that balance.

453
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 3: M hm for sure. Okay, So she is now at

454
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 3: the Bates Motel, which is run by Norman Bates played

455
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 3: by Anthony Perkins, who lives in the house just up

456
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 3: the hill overlooking the motel. He checks her into room one.

457
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 3: She gives him a fake name like in the registry,

458
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 3: and she's also the only guest staying there, because the

459
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 3: whole thing with this motel is that it used to

460
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 3: be along a main highway, but they made a new highway,

461
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 3: so there's basically no traffic going past this place, and

462
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 3: no one stays there anymore, so it's very secluded. Then

463
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 3: he invites her to his house for dinner, but as

464
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 3: she's getting settled and hiding the cash by rolling it

465
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 3: up in a newspaper and sitting it on the bedside table,

466
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 3: amazing hiding spot.

467
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 1: To be fair with her first time stealing forty thousand dollars.

468
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: True.

469
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: True, True.

470
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 5: It also seems like getting away with crime was pretty

471
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 5: easy back then, like a cop could watch you as

472
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 5: you switch costs.

473
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he's just like, well, I don't know, I know,

474
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: And he's like, Wow, this lady knows the law. She knows.

475
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: I guess what she's doing isn't technically against the law.

476
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 5: I mean, of all the things about Hitchcock that have

477
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 5: like aged really badly, how much in basically every movie

478
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 5: he hates the police.

479
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: True, And it's just or is the delightful to me?

480
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like portrayed as bumbling, incompetent getting in the way,

481
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 3: never helping that kind of thing.

482
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's like the whole third act of this

483
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 4: movie relies on like it's barely discussed. It's just like

484
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 4: assumed by Sam and by oh my gosh, what's her name,

485
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 4: her sister, Lila, Lilah, that the cops are not competent

486
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 4: enough or don't care enough to solve this crime, and

487
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 4: they have to take it into their own hands, which

488
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: is like, it's great.

489
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 3: For sure, Okay. So as she's getting settled into her room,

490
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 3: she overhears Norman Bates arguing with his mother about inviting

491
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: a strange woman over for dinner, and the mother is

492
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 3: like shaming him and shaming Marian. And then he shows

493
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 3: back up with some food and she's like, oh, your

494
00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 3: mom sounds awesome. And then they dine together, but in

495
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 3: the parlor area behind his office, which is that room

496
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 3: full of taxidermy birds. He tells her she eats like

497
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 3: a bird. Then he's like a boy's best friend is

498
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: his mother, and he talks about how his mother is

499
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: mentally unwell and how he feels trapped there having to

500
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 3: take care of her. She's very controlling all of this stuff,

501
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: and Marian's like, well, why don't you put her in

502
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 3: a facility And he's like, no, those places are horrible,

503
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: and he gets pretty scary for a moment, and she's like, yikes, bro,

504
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: But things kind of return to normal ish and she

505
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: goes back to her room, where he then peeps on

506
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 3: her via a hole in the wall while she's undressing.

507
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 3: Then she gets in the shower, we get the iconic

508
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: shower scene where Norman bay his mother comes in and

509
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 3: stabs Marian in the shower multiple times. The violins are screeching.

510
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: It's iconic.

511
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: It's like that music cue in the Jaws music cue.

512
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 4: Mmm, Like that's those are the two they just maybe

513
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 4: there's others, maybe Star Wars, whatever doesn't.

514
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 3: As far as like horror movies go.

515
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I want to say.

516
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 5: That it's a Jurassic Park one, but yeah, nothing's quite

517
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 5: as evogetive as.

518
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: It's so good.

519
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 4: Yeah that I'm excited to come back to that scene

520
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,479
Speaker 4: between the two of them right before the death scene too,

521
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 4: because that scene is just like full of things to.

522
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: Talk about for sure.

523
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

524
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 3: So Marian has been stabbed to death, and moments later

525
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 3: Norman discovers what his mother has done. He rushes to

526
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: help Marian, but it's too late. She's dead, so he

527
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 3: cleans up the crime scene, packs up her body and

528
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 3: her belongings, including the money that's tucked in the newspaper

529
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: that he doesn't realize is there, into her car, and

530
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: then pushes her car into this like swamp tarpit kind

531
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 3: of place. Cut to Marian's sister Lilah played by Vera Miles,

532
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: approaching Marian's boyfriend Sam to try to find out where

533
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 3: Marian is because it's been several days and no one

534
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 3: has heard from her.

535
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 4: Then this guy Arbagast, great name, truly sounds like a

536
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 4: guy in a horror movie to me.

537
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 3: He's played by Martin Balsom. Arbagast is a private investigator

538
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 3: who I think was hired by mister Cassidy, the guy

539
00:30:54,800 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: who's forty thousand dollars is missing. And Arbagas starts going

540
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: around to different motels in the area to try to

541
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 3: find Marion, including the Bates Motel, and he's able to

542
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 3: match Marian's handwriting in the registry book with a sample

543
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: that he has, so he starts asking Norman a bunch

544
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 3: of questions about did Marion stay there and blah blah blah,

545
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: and mister norm is being pretty suspicious, and then Arbagast

546
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 3: sees Norman's mother sitting in the window of the house

547
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 3: and Arbagast wants to question her, but Norman is like no, thanks,

548
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 3: now go away please. Obviously, Arbagast is very suspicious, and

549
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 3: he comes back a little later and goes to the

550
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: house to question missus Bates because he thinks that she

551
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: has information about Marion's whereabouts. But missus Bates promptly stabs

552
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 3: Arbagast to death in another pretty iconic scene where he's

553
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: falling backwards down the stairs. Meanwhile, Lila and Sam are like,

554
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: where's our friend, mister Arbagast. He was supposed to call

555
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 3: us back several hours ago. So Sam goes off to

556
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 3: find the Baits motel to see what's going on.

557
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: Quick stop off with some useless police.

558
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 4: Yeah right, yeah, I guess that the best you could

559
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 4: say of the police in this movie is that at

560
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 4: one point they were kind of doing their best.

561
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: And that's not saying much. So Sam finds the motel,

562
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 3: he can't find Arbagast, so he comes back to Lila.

563
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 3: Then they go to this like deputy sheriff guy who

564
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 3: is like, well, sounds like your private investigator doesn't even

565
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 3: have his facts straight because Norman Bates's mother died ten

566
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 3: years ago, and Sam is like, well, I saw an

567
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 3: old woman sitting in the window, and so there's like

568
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 3: a lot of confusion about who she is and what's

569
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: going on.

570
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 4: God, there's so many moments in this movie that it's

571
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 4: like it really kept hitting for me how iconic the

572
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 4: big beats of this movie are. Because there are multiple

573
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 4: times when I was rewatching it last night when I

574
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 4: was just like, how.

575
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: Could he not know that? Like it's psycho, Like you

576
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: should know that. But then if it were possible to

577
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: have a clean reading of this movie, would I have

578
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: picked up on it? Maybe not. I don't know, We'll

579
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: never know.

580
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 3: It's triaky.

581
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 5: It does seem a bit weird though that apparently like

582
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 5: Hitchcock emphasis like so so dedicated to preserving these twists,

583
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 5: and like was buying up every copy of like the

584
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 5: book that it was based on to like make sure

585
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 5: people wouldn't know, and like that before it happens, this

586
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 5: that like small shadowing of just like oh no, she's dead,

587
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 5: why would you put right?

588
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 4: That kind of gives a lot away, and like those

589
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 4: characters have no incentive to lie about it, like, but

590
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 4: it is kind of just like passed over as the

591
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 4: movie goes forward, and they're like, no, no, there's an

592
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 4: old lady up there. We know it.

593
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 3: Maybe they try to cover their tracks because the sheriff

594
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: guy is like, well, if missus Bates is still alive,

595
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 3: then who's that woman buried in the cemetery? And it's like,

596
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 3: well that doesn't do quite enough.

597
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 5: Sorry, you've still planted the idea, right, Yeah, but I mean,

598
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 5: I guess it's very different because like it's not like

599
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 5: we saw Psycho fresh. We saw it like knowing that

600
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 5: that was going to happen, But that does seem in

601
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 5: retrospect like a little taking the wind out of the sails. Yeah.

602
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 3: Anyway, so Lila and Sam, realizing that the police are useless,

603
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 3: go to the motel to investigate on their own. They

604
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: check in pretending to be a married couple and sneak

605
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 3: into room one. So their suspicion is that Norman Bates

606
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 3: stole the forty thousand dollars from Marion, but they don't

607
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: find any conclusive evidence in room one. So Lila wants

608
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 3: to talk to the mother while Sam distracts Norman and

609
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: Lila goes into the house. She snoops around the mother's bedroom.

610
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 3: She snoops around Norman's bedroom, which is very like childlike

611
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 3: and creepy. Meanwhile, Norman Bates does not like the things

612
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 3: that Sam is insinuating, so he knocks Sam out and

613
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: rushes up to the house. Lilah meanwhile heads down to

614
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 3: the fruit cellar, where she sees Missus Bates from behind,

615
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: sitting in a chair. But then Missus Bates spins around

616
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 3: and twist She's a skeleton.

617
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: Who would have know.

618
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: How you spin an old lady around when you yeah,

619
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: look at me.

620
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 4: I do appreciate in this whole sequence, like Sam, I guess,

621
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 4: I don't know like how intentional the movie is making this,

622
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 4: but it felt clear to me where it's like Sam

623
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 4: is I guess well intentioned, but he is just like

624
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 4: not good at doing any any of the things he's

625
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 4: supposed to be doing. Lyla takes control from him multiple times,

626
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 4: and he's always like, I don't know, but then always

627
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 4: ends up going with your plan, and then he executes

628
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 4: his portion of the plan poorly without like I was like,

629
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 4: why would you say I'm going to go distract Norman Bath?

630
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: And then immediately get into an argument with him. What

631
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: are you doing?

632
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not being subtle at all. He should be like, hey,

633
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 3: let's talk about taxidermy.

634
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: Or something like, right, distract him.

635
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 3: Instead he's just like you stole money, didn't you?

636
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, if we know anything about Norman

637
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: of this point is that he can be let on

638
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: a tangent.

639
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 4: Yeah right, it's like he hasn't talked to anybody in years,

640
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 4: Like he's down to chat, just like, don't talk to

641
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 4: him about his mom or crimes two topics to avoid

642
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 4: and what.

643
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 3: Does Sam do? But talks about both of those? Yep, okay,

644
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 3: so missus Bates is a Skelington. And just then Norman Bates,

645
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 3: dressed as his mother in a wig and a dress

646
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 3: and he's holding a knife, pops in about to stab Lila,

647
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 3: but then Sam comes in behind Norman and stops him

648
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 3: and saves Lila. Then we cut to a courthouse where

649
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 3: a psychiatrist who has just spoken to Norman Bates off

650
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: screen explains a whole bunch of stuff that will unpack,

651
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 3: but basically that Norman Bates has a dual personality where

652
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 3: sometimes he's Norman, sometimes he's his mother and how Norman

653
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 3: had murdered his mother and her lover ten years prior

654
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 3: and then stole her body and preserved it and becomes

655
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 3: his mother. And then the movie ends with a shot

656
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 3: of Norman Bates, but with voiceover from his mother saying,

657
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 3: my son is a bad boy. He's the one who

658
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: murdered those people. I wouldn't even harm a fly.

659
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: And then he has that shot that looks just like

660
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: Janetly when she's in the car. They're both like like

661
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: narrow eyes.

662
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 4: Almost like stealing forty thousand dollars from a rich guy

663
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 4: is the same as being a serial killer.

664
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, not the same. So that's the movie. Let's take

665
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 3: another quick break and we'll come.

666
00:38:51,040 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 4: Right back, and we're back. We're back, okay, Leila. We

667
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 4: always defer to our guests. What would you like to

668
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 4: discuss first? What jumped out at you?

669
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 5: I mean, I've seen it so many times, but I

670
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 5: think this time I kind of ended up going down

671
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 5: like a little bit of a.

672
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, like a different perspective on it.

673
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 5: And I was reminded in like the early days of YouTube,

674
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,919
Speaker 5: you know, when people were doing like these things where

675
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 5: they'd re edit movie trailers to make them look like

676
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 5: they were a different genres when Mary Poppins was like

677
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 5: a horror movie and somebody did like Psycho as being

678
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 5: like a romantic comedy, and like, weirdly I found myself

679
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 5: watching this as.

680
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: Being like this is like kind of a Hallmark Christmas

681
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: movie ooh, and like hit me out.

682
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 5: It's they specify it starts on December eleventh, and she's

683
00:39:54,960 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 5: got like two days in Phoenix, Arizona, and then she

684
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 5: has an overnight drive and then they specify that it's

685
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 5: a week till people start looking for her.

686
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: That's say two three days of the investigation.

687
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 5: In the end, I swear to god, I think Norman

688
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 5: Baits that final scene happens on Christmas.

689
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: Whoa, And then the whole thing just.

690
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 5: Like I kind of work backwards from that where I

691
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 5: was like, is this like the most searing satire on

692
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 5: like bullshit romantic comedy Christmas movies? Wow?

693
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:34,240
Speaker 2: Because we have our like Gal from the city, this kind.

694
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 5: Of career gal who kind of is like ambitious in

695
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 5: all of these ways and kind of cutthroat, and then

696
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 5: she's kind of got the boyfriend who won't really commit,

697
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 5: but she's really very interested in him. And then this

698
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 5: like folksy guy who loves his mom and has hobbies

699
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 5: takes her in and it kind of fell at like

700
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 5: the forty seven minute mark, I was like, there is

701
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 5: a version of this where he is about to he's

702
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 5: going to spend forty k investing in this motel and

703
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 5: he's about to teach her the meaning of Christmas. And yeah,

704
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 5: it's it's not what I expected to think coming into

705
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 5: this podcast. Part of me and I think the Anthony

706
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 5: Perkins being like such an insane dream boat was just

707
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 5: like I'm actually watching what promising young woman wishes. It

708
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 5: was where we are having like this like Syrian critique

709
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 5: of like the nice guy in like the cultural imagination.

710
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: That's so yeah, fascinating.

711
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 4: I didn't know very much about Anthony Perkins as a person.

712
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 4: I I mean, he has a fascinating and in many

713
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 4: ways I think tragic life in the way that I

714
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 4: mean he was like a dream boat. He was like

715
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 4: a an icon long before this movie came out, but

716
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 4: was also a very talented actor. He was closeted, I

717
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 4: think for his entire life, and at different points in

718
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 4: his life underwent abusive kind of conversion therapy to try

719
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 4: to not be gay. Anymore, which is very of the

720
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 4: time that's well documented, and ultimately died of AIDS, but

721
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 4: also just had this incredible life and this incredible career

722
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 4: and was an activist his entire career. And it was like,

723
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 4: I really loved learning about him, and I was curious

724
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 4: why he was thought of for this part, because he's

725
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 4: in his late twenties when he did this, and he

726
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 4: was advocated for by Hitchcock, even though I don't know.

727
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 4: I was curious about because it's an adaptation from the

728
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 4: book you were referencing Leila, and Hitchcock got wind of

729
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 4: it and basically bought it out of a stock so

730
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 4: no one could find out about all the Dune kinds

731
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 4: of moments. But originally I was pleasantly surprised at the

732
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 4: changes that Hitchcock and the screenwriter, whose name is Joseph Stefano,

733
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 4: chose to make from the book. I have not read

734
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 4: the book, probably never won. Yeah, But originally I think

735
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 4: it was written in sort of far more broad stereotype strokes,

736
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 4: where the character of Norman is written to be I

737
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 4: think an alcoholic who quote unquote SWAP's personalities when he

738
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 4: drinks too much. He's written to be middle aged, he's

739
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 4: written to be not stereotypically handsome, and it was sort

740
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 4: of suggested, like, what if we cast a young, kind

741
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 4: of iconically hot guy to do.

742
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: This, and how will that affect it? And I think

743
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: it was a really.

744
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 4: Interesting switch that definitely affected my read of the movie

745
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 4: and sort of challenges what you expect from people who

746
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 4: look a certain way when you see them on screen.

747
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 4: Other changes I saw was in the book Marian and

748
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 4: Sam do not have a hotel tryst in the book

749
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 4: that was added for the movie. But something that they

750
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 4: took out that I couldn't really remember if it happened

751
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 4: or not, and it was pleasantly surprised, was that because

752
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 4: Lila and Sam were spending so much time together, I'm

753
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 4: like two hot people in nineteen sixty, They're probably were

754
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 4: probably going to force them together arbitrarily, but they don't.

755
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: And I guess in the book that did happen, where

756
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: like Lila and Sam fell in love over the recent

757
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: death of someone they both loved.

758
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 4: So I mostly thought that the changes that they made

759
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 4: for the movie were pretty cool and like serve the story.

760
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 3: I agree. And then also, as we mentioned, the book,

761
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: which was written by Robert block was loosely based on

762
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 3: real life murderer slash grave robber ed Gan, which I

763
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 3: guess might kind of inform like the really bizarre psychoanalysis

764
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 3: that the psychiatrist gives of Norman Bates at the end

765
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 3: of the movie, which again we'll talk about.

766
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: But give him a break. It's Christmas.

767
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 3: He's like, Merry Christmas.

768
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 4: By the way, It's true he has to close one

769
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 4: of the most famous movies of all time on Christmas.

770
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: No less, he's having a hard time that scene.

771
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 4: I also kind of forgot of like I think that

772
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 4: happens in a lot of Hitchcock movies and maybe just

773
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 4: older movies in general, where at the end everything has

774
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 4: to be wrapped up and you're like, wait, there's only

775
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 4: two minutes left, and then a guy gives a speech

776
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 4: and then you're like, oh, okay, I guess that.

777
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: I guess that's how it ends. It's just so abrupt.

778
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

779
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 4: But yeah, so did you, Caitlin, did you go sort

780
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 4: of down the rabbit hole on Edge? I didn't learn

781
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 4: a lot about him personally.

782
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: I just knew that the.

783
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 4: Author of the book like lived locally, and so it

784
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 4: was something that was like local lore that existed in

785
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 4: his mind.

786
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: I read a large chunk of ed Dean's Wikipedia page

787
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: on Scholarly Journal of course Wikipedia. Basically it so I

788
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 3: know everything now, so I don't have a whole lot

789
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 3: of insight here, although I was curious because like the

790
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 3: wikiped again, I should, you know, do more research than

791
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 3: just scholarly Journal Wikipedia. But the Wikipedia page for the

792
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 3: movie Psycho says like, oh, here are the similarities between

793
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 3: Norman Bates and ed Gean. They both like live in

794
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 3: these secluded areas. They both had domineering mothers where they

795
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 3: like had a shrine to them in their house. They

796
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 3: both wore women's clothing. And then I looked into ed

797
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 3: Gean more and I was like, wait a minute, that

798
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 3: may or may not be true. I couldn't. What I

799
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 3: did find is that ed Green made a suit or

800
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 3: started to and this is gonna be graphic and gory,

801
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 3: but he started to make like a woman suit literally

802
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 3: a like skin suit from his victims and or like

803
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 3: bodies that he had grave robbed.

804
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 4: The list of things found at his house, if you're beware,

805
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 4: you're in for his care, it is are al, steign, scary, scary, bad, horrible,

806
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 4: and yeah, because I also read that very scary Wikipedia page.

807
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: It felt like.

808
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 4: Because it seems basically impossible and maybe for the best

809
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 4: that that was not shown on screen and like fully

810
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 4: adapted into Norman Bates's character.

811
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: The sub in was a.

812
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 4: Very transphobic and just generally queer phobic narrative around gender

813
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 4: nonconforming clothing. They're like, well, it's basically the same thing,

814
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 4: and you're like, well, wait, hold.

815
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: On, no, it's not. It's not.

816
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, I guess that leads into so I want

817
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 3: to kind of unpack what the psychiatrist says about Norman

818
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 3: Baits and then what the implications of that are. So

819
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 3: the psychiatrist is describing Norman Bates as having some sort

820
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 3: of like quote unquote split personality disorder, and I know

821
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 3: that's like not the real name of anything, but also

822
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 3: the disorder that's being depicted in the movie is like

823
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 3: not a real thing. It's some you know, like Hollywood

824
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 3: version of a disorder. But the point is the psychiatrist

825
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 3: is saying that sometimes he's Norman Baits, sometimes he's inhabiting

826
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 3: the personality and likeness of his mother. He describes Norman

827
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 3: as having been quote unquote disturbed ever since his father died.

828
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 3: That his mother was clingy, demanding, and it seems like

829
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 3: she and Norman had a very codependent relationship until missus

830
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 3: Bates met a man. She took a lover, and Norman

831
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 3: became very jealous. So he murdered his mother and her lover.

832
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 3: But he knew that murdering his mother was bad, that

833
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 3: he was a bad boy, and so he had to

834
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 3: erase this crime in his mind by becoming his mother.

835
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 3: So he stole her corpse and preserved it. And he

836
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 3: was also again he was jealous of his mother and

837
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 3: assumed that she was just as jealous of him as

838
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 3: he was of her. And so if he ever felt

839
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 3: an attraction to woman, you know, the mother side of

840
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 3: him would take control. Again, this is the psychiatrist describing this.

841
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 3: The mother side of Norman would take control. And so

842
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 3: like when he met Marion and he was attracted to her,

843
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 3: that set off the mother, and then he as his mother,

844
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 3: like inhabiting the personality and mindset of his mother. That's

845
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 3: who killed Marion. And then as far as why he

846
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 3: was wearing a dress and a wig, another person in

847
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 3: the courtroom speculates that Norman was a and then he

848
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,919
Speaker 3: uses like a very dated term to refer to people

849
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 3: who wear clothes that quote unquote don't match the gender

850
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 3: that they're assigned at birth. But the psychiatrist is like, no, no,

851
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 3: that's not true. Norman Bates wore those clothes to become

852
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 3: his mother and to maintain the illusion that his mother

853
00:50:55,680 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 3: is alive. So we have this just like really like

854
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: quack science, quack medicine explanation of what is going on

855
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 3: in the psychology of Norman Bates. And the movie does

856
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 3: not come right out and say like, this person is

857
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 3: trans and or gender non conforming and therefore they are

858
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 3: a murderer. But this is one of many movies that

859
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 3: equates gender non conformity kind of to use that as

860
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 3: an umbrella term here with mental illness, which, like at

861
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 3: the time, you know, in the sixties and before and beyond,

862
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 3: this was a very popularly held belief.

863
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 4: Which I think you can trace in Anthony Perkins's own life.

864
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 4: Kind of ironically, it's like this was very much the

865
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 4: normalized opinion to have at the time, to the point

866
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 4: where the lead actor in the movie, whose character is

867
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 4: being subscribed to all this bullshit like was experiencing obviously

868
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 4: not the exact same thing, but was also being treated

869
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 4: as if being queer was a fundamental failure in a

870
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 4: medical condition. I mean, and that was for a decade

871
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 4: after this movie came out, and like what, I think,

872
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 4: it's like these different I don't know, there's so many

873
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,839
Speaker 4: different issues and discussions inside of that like minute long

874
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 4: monologue where it's conflating gender non conformity and transness and

875
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 4: queerness with mental illness, and this is like a very

876
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 4: typical problem for horror movies to have. Still is like

877
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 4: completely mis understanding the mental illness that they think that

878
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 4: they're describing, that they are needlessly conflating with gender non conformity.

879
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: So it's just like all of this stuff all at once.

880
00:52:57,960 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: I know.

881
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 4: We've talked about how in movies, and often in horror movies,

882
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 4: there will be a specific mental illness that is prescribed

883
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 4: as like this is why this character is violent, you know,

884
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 4: needs to be put away, needs to be killed, whatever

885
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 4: the movie sort of prescribes to, and it is like

886
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 4: almost always the better choice to just not attach a

887
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 4: specific diagnosis to something like that. Like no one's asking

888
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 4: that horror movie villains don't exist, but it is still,

889
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 4: I mean, the one that always comes up for me

890
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 4: because I think it just like upset me personally. Was

891
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 4: in the opening sequence of Midsomar, where it's implied that

892
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 4: Florence Pugh's sister murders the entire family because she is bipolar,

893
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 4: which is just like such a huge false swing. Then

894
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 4: that was a couple of years ago, and so it's like,

895
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 4: you know, very normalized within this genre to do that.

896
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 4: But I just wanted to share it quick because I'm

897
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 4: not a mental health professional, Like I was, like, it's

898
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 4: safe to say, like I'm assuming that they're getting this

899
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 4: diagnosis wrong, but I wonder if anyone's written about it.

900
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 4: So I have just a quick passage from the American

901
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 4: Journal of Psychiatry from twenty twenty from Riley manscene Bs,

902
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 4: writing about horror movies and mental conditions throughout the ages.

903
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 4: They write quote. One of horror's most iconic portrayals of

904
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 4: a psychiatric condition was in Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho. The protagonist

905
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 4: Norman Bates, who commit several murders, demonstrates many features of

906
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 4: dissociative identity disorder. Because the ID was not well explored

907
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 4: in media at the time, many interpreted the delusions and

908
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 4: disorganized thought of Norman Bates as schizophrenia. As a result,

909
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 4: audiences generalized the two disorders as one. Psycho portrayed a

910
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 4: psychiatric condition coupled with a new heightened level of violence

911
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 4: on the silver screen, which perpetuated negative stereotypes of violence

912
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 4: by psychiatric patients unquote. And so it's not psycho that

913
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 4: invented this, but it's definitely one of the most popular examples.

914
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 3: Right, And so to go back to conflating gender nonconformity

915
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:21,720
Speaker 3: with mental illness, which this movie very much does among

916
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 3: many others, And again that was and still is until

917
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 3: pretty recently, was a belief held by medical science and psychiatry.

918
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 3: It wasn't until twenty thirteen when the DSM five was

919
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 3: published that quote gender identity disorder was eliminated and replaced

920
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 3: with gender dysphoria, pulling that from psychiatry dot org.

921
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're all waiting for the DSM six to drop

922
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: because yeah.

923
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so medical science was historically very much in the

924
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 3: mindset of conflating gender non conformity with mental illness, but

925
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 3: not just mental illness, specifically with violence, because there are

926
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 3: many many mental illnesses and I have several of them

927
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 3: that are nonviolent, you know, but like this and many

928
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 3: many movies say like, if you have any characteristics of

929
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 3: gender non conformity, you are mentally ill and therefore violent.

930
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 3: You're an abuser, you're a murderer, you're a psychopath, basically,

931
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 3: And this was basically the only way that trans people

932
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 3: and any gender non conforming people were represented in media

933
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 3: for the longest time, which has obviously had like an

934
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 3: incredibly damaging effect on that community, to the point where

935
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 3: there's still constant legislation trying to bar trans people from

936
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,439
Speaker 3: using the appropriate bathrooms because they think that trans people

937
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 3: are going to prey on people in bathroom things like that, and.

938
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 4: Just legislating trans people out of existence altogether. Which we've

939
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 4: talked about this on the show before. But the doc

940
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 4: that came out a couple of years ago, Disclosure, it like, yes,

941
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 4: illustrates this point very clearly.

942
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

943
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 3: I even pulled a quote from it because I as

944
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 3: part of my prep, I also watched a chunk of

945
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 3: that movie and Laverne Cox points out that quote, Alfred

946
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 3: Hitchcock seems to be obsessed with people who traverse gender

947
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 3: stereotypes as murderers. And then there are clips of Psycho.

948
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 3: There's a clip of the Alfred Hitchcock Hour from nineteen

949
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 3: sixty five. There's also a clip from a movie called

950
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 3: Murder exclamation Point from nineteen thirty, so Hitchcock had a

951
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 3: habit of doing this quite a lot.

952
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 4: Me.

953
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 5: One of the things that I find also like kind

954
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 5: of on a next level kind of upsessing about the

955
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 5: narrative that this starts is that also kind of gender

956
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 5: nonconformity comes from like a nugget of abuse that like,

957
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 5: there has to be kind of like an inciting incident,

958
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 5: there has to be something that horribly wrong with your

959
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 5: childhood that kind of like sent you off on this spiral.

960
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 2: But also like in a broader context, like I hate

961
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,439
Speaker 2: these sort of stories.

962
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 5: About abuse victims necessarily themselves evolving into.

963
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 2: What it is that damaged them in the first place.

964
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 5: And I mean, I'm not a scientist, but like I

965
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 5: believe the numbers do not actually manifest in that way.

966
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 5: Like if you are someone who has been through a

967
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 5: horrifically abusive childhood, the idea that you are necessarily doomed

968
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 5: to reenact that. I think it's very very difficult for

969
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 5: survivors of abuse to feel that you are necessarily trapped

970
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 5: in that cycle, but also just like not helpful, and

971
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 5: you know, in any degree, and you know that faces

972
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 5: like the people that most likely to suffer from that

973
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 5: sort of abuse are people from marginalized genders. So it

974
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 5: just all feels like it's buying something very insidious.

975
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 3: To me, especially because this movie blames normans, like the

976
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 3: thing that makes him become quote unquote disturbed is the

977
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 3: death of his father, almost as if to say, like,

978
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 3: without the presence of another male figure in his life,

979
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 3: like setting him on the right path, he becomes this murderer.

980
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 3: And it also blames his mother for like all of

981
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 3: his bad behavior. And that's not to say that like

982
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 3: there aren't abusive dynamics between parents and children, and that

983
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 3: an abusive parent can't like, you know, affect a person's

984
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 3: behavior and kind of the way their life pans out.

985
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 3: But like the this movie is very much like this mother,

986
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 3: she it's all her fault, and mothers are to be blamed.

987
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 4: Well, I guess I was a little confused about that

988
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 4: by the end, because I feel like, I mean, and

989
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 4: I don't know how intentionally this was done, but by

990
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 4: the end of the movie, just because obviously from Norman,

991
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 4: we get an inaccurate depiction of his relationship with his

992
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 4: mother because he's acting as if she is still alive,

993
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 4: and then at the end we get kind of a

994
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 4: glazed over version of their relationship where it was not

995
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 4: clear to me by the end of the movie the

996
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 4: mother and son were deeply codependent, sure, but outside of that,

997
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 4: it was unclear to me what degree of abuse had occurred.

998
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 4: Or it seems like in some ways that you read

999
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 4: it as like Norman was presented as this bad seed,

1000
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 4: or that a close relationship with his mother manifested a

1001
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 4: mental illness, which is just like I was just confused

1002
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 4: by the end.

1003
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: I was like, what sequence of events is it? Is

1004
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 1: it trying to push.

1005
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 5: Well, because fundamentally we are presented that Norman is like

1006
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 5: completely like sexually shut down, like he mean, I think,

1007
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 5: kind of give the impression that he's never had any

1008
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 5: sort of intimacy with women, whilst his mother, by all accounts,

1009
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 5: has had too committed relationships. She was married and then

1010
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 5: she had like this fiance as well. So it does

1011
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 5: kind of beg the question of like how much of

1012
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 5: this is sort of his psychosexual obsession with her rather

1013
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 5: than necessarily how it really was right, right.

1014
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 1: Because it isn't.

1015
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 4: I mean, in the movie, it is implied that like

1016
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 4: Norman is attracted to women and is attracted to Janet

1017
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 4: Lee's character to Marian, and that like that is something

1018
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 4: to be resisted and pushed away, and that's I don't know,

1019
01:01:57,240 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 4: maybe that is like a way in of talking about

1020
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 4: a little bit, because I think just Marian was a

1021
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 4: character who I think was better covered and more thoughtfully

1022
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 4: covered than I remembered. Because I think a big turn

1023
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 4: in Norman's narrative is that he is doing what a

1024
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,439
Speaker 4: lot of men are doing to Marian in this movie.

1025
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 4: He is trying to, you know, lure her and get

1026
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 4: her alone and spend time with her and have her attention.

1027
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 4: But he's doing it in a gentler way than we've

1028
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 4: seen men in this movie do it.

1029
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 1: So far. It doesn't make her less on guard, but

1030
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: it's a different approach.

1031
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 4: And at this point in the movie where like we're

1032
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 4: not really sure who Norman is or what he's like,

1033
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 4: and that conversation between them takes a turn where he

1034
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 4: gets very prickly and defensive and frustrated when his mother

1035
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 4: comes up and the decisions around his family come up

1036
01:02:55,600 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 4: and then when she leaves, he immediately begins spying on

1037
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 4: her and watching her take off her clothes, which is

1038
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 4: not the first time that even happens in the movie,

1039
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 4: because that's like how the movie starts, is by us

1040
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 4: looking at a window at like Marian topless with Sam

1041
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:15,080
Speaker 4: So it's I don't know. I thought they were like

1042
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 4: interesting choices of how she's framed where you're always I mean,

1043
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 4: there are moments where your the camera's very intentionally like

1044
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 4: leering at her, and with Norman it's a character driven leering,

1045
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 4: but that's not even the first time that you're staring

1046
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 4: at Marian through a window with her clothes off, Like

1047
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 4: it's just I don't know, the way that she's framed

1048
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 4: seems intentional in that way.

1049
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 3: Well, it made me wonder because this is like one

1050
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 3: of the first, if not the first, slasher movies, and

1051
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 3: such a big trope about slasher movies, as we've discussed,

1052
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 3: is the punishment of sexuality, specifically women's sexuality, with violence.

1053
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 3: So if you see teenagers and teen girls having sex,

1054
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 3: they are bound to get murdered violently in a way

1055
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 3: that's often framed extremely sexually, like the murder itself and

1056
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 3: this is the case for this movie, because she gets

1057
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 3: murdered while she's naked in the shower in a way

1058
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 3: that you could argue is sexualized. Where it made me wonder,

1059
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:38,479
Speaker 3: is Marian being punished for kind of having The movie

1060
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 3: frames what she's doing as having this like secret torrid affair.

1061
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 3: It's not quite that. But it took me on my

1062
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 3: second watch to realize the dynamic of the relationship because

1063
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 3: they're talking about like, oh, or should we get married,

1064
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 3: or who has been married.

1065
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:55,160
Speaker 1: Before or not?

1066
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 3: And I was confused by a lot of it, and

1067
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 3: I thought maybe at least one of them, between Marian

1068
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 3: and Sam, was already married and they were cheating and

1069
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 3: having this you know, secret affair where they have to

1070
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 3: meet up in a hotel room and all this stuff.

1071
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 3: And then it turns out that no, it's just that

1072
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 3: he can't marry her because he is in debt and

1073
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 3: can't support her or something. But I feel like the

1074
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 3: movie is still framing it as like this is a

1075
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 3: secret torrid affair out of wedlock, and they're having sex

1076
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 3: out of wedlock, and therefore Marian has to be punished,

1077
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 3: and you know, punished violently and in a very sexually

1078
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 3: charged way. I don't have like necessarily even conclusive thoughts

1079
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 3: or totally fully formed thoughts on it, but it was

1080
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:53,440
Speaker 3: just like a lot of different things I was picking

1081
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 3: up on.

1082
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 5: I think that's how I kind of previously felt, and

1083
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 5: like this viewing change that a little bit for me.

1084
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 5: I kind of saw the Dynamicus being a bit like

1085
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 5: Sex and the City, Mister Big kind of like Sam

1086
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 5: is kind of making excuses and she is like wanting

1087
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 5: to commit and settled down, and then when she's in

1088
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 5: the car, she kind of fantasizes about what he'll say

1089
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 5: when he sees her, and she's going to be so

1090
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 5: like happy to see him in all of you know,

1091
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:25,360
Speaker 5: and all of those things. And I didn't feel that

1092
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 5: like the movie was necessarily judging her for those desires.

1093
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 5: And then like the shower scene is just so kind

1094
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 5: of overplayed in my head. But what struck me this

1095
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 5: type watching it is that she kind of lies out

1096
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 5: of the bath, you know, out of the shower, and

1097
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 5: you know, he has this really long shot that's just

1098
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 5: on her eye, and the water from the shower is

1099
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 5: like dripping, and it kind of does appear to be

1100
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 5: almost like tears and forst moment you think she's dead,

1101
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 5: and then you kind of see that she's It's like

1102
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 5: the last flickers of life kind of coming out of her.

1103
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 5: And the thing she's looking at is the money. It's

1104
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 5: a pot of me that it's just like that was

1105
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 5: the sin.

1106
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't know where to fall on.

1107
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 4: I guess I was surprised at the amount of grace

1108
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 4: the movie shows to Marian. I mean, and maybe that's

1109
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:18,280
Speaker 4: me putting too much of a modern view on it,

1110
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 4: but it felt to me like the movie was, you know,

1111
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 4: not judgmental of Marion's actions.

1112
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1113
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 4: I mean, I know that there's gendered stuff in this too,

1114
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 4: where you know, in movies where male protagonists, you know,

1115
01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 4: steals or robs someone, it's the pressure to justify it

1116
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 4: is not as great. But I felt like the movie

1117
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 4: did a good job of making it clear what Marian

1118
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 4: was trying to do and how frustrating her life was,

1119
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 4: and that she wanted out and she didn't want I mean,

1120
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 4: I think that there's a way to see it both ways,

1121
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 4: but it felt like it was a frustration of feeling

1122
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 4: like she had to hide a relationship and a frustration

1123
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 4: of feeling like having this relationship would result in her

1124
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 4: and her partner being judged on top of being treated

1125
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:16,120
Speaker 4: like shit at work, on top of being harassed by

1126
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 4: every man she comes into contact with.

1127
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 1: Not that stealing this money would change that, but it was.

1128
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:22,719
Speaker 1: It's a very.

1129
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 4: Active decision by her. I mean, I think a lesser

1130
01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 4: movie would have someone suggest it to her. But it's like,

1131
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 4: she gets access to this money, this is her chance,

1132
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 4: and she decides to do it.

1133
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 1: I like that part.

1134
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:38,640
Speaker 4: I don't really feel was done judgmentally. I think the

1135
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 4: way that she dies and when she dies was how

1136
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 4: I I don't know. I mean, I didn't come down

1137
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 4: hard in one way. But I think it is really

1138
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 4: interesting that it's like the moment that she decides to

1139
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 4: come clean is when she's killed, And I don't know

1140
01:08:55,280 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 4: how that sort of affects the way that the movie

1141
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:00,720
Speaker 4: seems to be viewing her. I think the way the

1142
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:03,439
Speaker 4: movie frames her versus the way she's written are often

1143
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 4: kind of in conflict, which we've talked about in a

1144
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 4: pajillion movies. I don't really understand why we're leering at

1145
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 4: her at the beginning of the movie. I guess I

1146
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:15,759
Speaker 4: do understand it more when it's done from the character

1147
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:18,839
Speaker 4: perspective of Norman, but there is other times it happens

1148
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 4: that I don't understand. But there was a quote from

1149
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 4: that Hitchcock and True Faux book, which is just extended

1150
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:31,799
Speaker 4: interviews with Hitchcock discussing how the shower scene was filmed

1151
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,360
Speaker 4: and what was supposed to be motivating it, And this

1152
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 4: is a quote from Janet Lee within that book, Marian

1153
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 4: had decided to go back to Phoenix, come clean, and

1154
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 4: take the consequence. So when she stepped into the bathtub,

1155
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 4: it was as if she were stepping into the baptismal waters.

1156
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 4: The spray beating down on her was purifying the corruption

1157
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 4: from her mind, purging the evil from her soul. She

1158
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 4: was like a virgin again, tranquil at peace, unquote. And

1159
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 4: so choosing to kill her at that moment, I don't

1160
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 4: know what trying to do there, because it doesn't feel

1161
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 4: like a punished I mean, I feel like you can

1162
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:11,080
Speaker 4: argue that she's killed as a punishment for considering the

1163
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 4: sin of stealing or the sin of a relationship that

1164
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 4: was not acceptable at the time. But we've just seen

1165
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 4: her decide that she's not going to do that, and

1166
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 4: she's going to return to her virtuous life. Yeah, and

1167
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 4: that's when she's killed. And I don't I mean, I

1168
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 4: don't know.

1169
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 5: It's such a fascinating scene that one with you know,

1170
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:33,800
Speaker 5: when they're having the sandwiches in the living room. Given that,

1171
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 5: like I think what Hitchcock managers to like do so

1172
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 5: skillfully is like you can, I mean the music and

1173
01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:42,040
Speaker 5: the birds and like the lighting and everything, you know

1174
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 5: that this woman is in like grave danger and it's

1175
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,599
Speaker 5: under threat. But because Giantly's performance is just so good

1176
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,720
Speaker 5: that you can kind of see why she's in like

1177
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 5: the mode of like this is just like a harmless

1178
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 5: meet you in this is kind of like some eccentric

1179
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 5: guy and he's kind of dreamy, and it's like her

1180
01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 5: why her God is down still comes across in that scene.

1181
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 5: But I had completely forgotten that there's something about that

1182
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:08,760
Speaker 5: conversation that she has with Norman that makes her change

1183
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 5: her mind and like decide that she's going to like

1184
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:13,680
Speaker 5: go back and make it all okay again and like

1185
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 5: give back the money and like change it. And I

1186
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 5: and I've rewatched it like two or three times and

1187
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 5: I couldn't quite pick up on it. What Hitchcock thinks

1188
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:28,240
Speaker 5: Norman is doing to Marian because she seems of like

1189
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 5: such a kind of stronger constitution than he is. And like,

1190
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 5: as much as you know Anthony Perkins's dreamy.

1191
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:42,479
Speaker 2: Like that persuasion never felt quite right to me. Beyond

1192
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:45,439
Speaker 2: that maybe she has like a moment to pause and reflect, but.

1193
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:51,679
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, I couldn't identify anything specific that he says,

1194
01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 3: unless maybe it's just like him talking about like being

1195
01:11:56,880 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 3: trapped and you know, under the control of his mother basically,

1196
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 3: and like she worries that by running away, and like

1197
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 3: because she'll eventually have to deal with the consequences of

1198
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 3: like stealing this money, if she will feel trapped just

1199
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 3: by like that stress and the burden or not even

1200
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 3: the guilt, the stress of getting potentially caught, right, maybe

1201
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 3: she decides it won't be worth it. But whatever it is,

1202
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 3: I agree that it's not clear.

1203
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean, but that's why this is a

1204
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:37,799
Speaker 5: you know, Christmas romcom movie, like kind of deep, incredibly compelling,

1205
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 5: intelligent woman gets like persuaded by this like.

1206
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:45,639
Speaker 4: Lame right, the purpose of that scene because I agree,

1207
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 4: like I didn't feel like that that conversation resulting in

1208
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 4: her deciding to undo what she just started doing like

1209
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 4: their predicaments are not similar.

1210
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 1: It was confusing why it was switched. I read and like, this.

1211
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:05,960
Speaker 4: Makes sense to me, but maybe the execution just like

1212
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:08,400
Speaker 4: doesn't work for a modern audience, or maybe it just

1213
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 4: doesn't work at all.

1214
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:11,679
Speaker 1: Was that that scene was put there?

1215
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:13,560
Speaker 4: That scene doesn't appear in the book, and it was

1216
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,840
Speaker 4: put there so that it's like almost this moment of

1217
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:21,200
Speaker 4: like transference, so that you know enough about Norman that

1218
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:25,799
Speaker 4: when when Janetly's character dies in a couple of minutes,

1219
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 4: your sort of sympathies have been transferred from Marian to Norman.

1220
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:35,080
Speaker 4: Which that makes sense that you have to do that,

1221
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 4: But maybe but I think that like I honestly don't

1222
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 4: even know that that had to happen, Like why did

1223
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 4: she need to change her mind in order to leave

1224
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 4: that room and take a shower?

1225
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 1: Like her plan could have been the same. I guess

1226
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1227
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:50,640
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't like object to it, but I

1228
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:53,400
Speaker 4: don't really understand why that switch happened.

1229
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 2: But do you think that's just.

1230
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:58,920
Speaker 5: Kind of like male gaze in that like Hitchcock felt

1231
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 5: that we needed to have like additional reasons to find

1232
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 5: her death to be a bad thing. Yeah, because I

1233
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 5: ONMI kind of really needed that interaction with the guy

1234
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 5: who's doing the tax evasion and the eighteen year old

1235
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,520
Speaker 5: daughter to be just like I am fully.

1236
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 4: On right her and her victimless crimes, like I don't

1237
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:19,880
Speaker 4: give Yeah, maybe that is like, oh, we need to

1238
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 4: show that she has made the upright, morally pure choice.

1239
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,600
Speaker 1: And so then when she dies, it's sadder because she

1240
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 1: was going to do the right thing. She just didn't

1241
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:33,799
Speaker 1: get the chance. She was tempted. Oh that sucks. I wouldn't.

1242
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 4: I would rather die stealing forty thousand dollars than die

1243
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 4: about and steal forty thousand dollars exactly.

1244
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:46,920
Speaker 3: I also wish that Lilah had been poised more front

1245
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 3: and center as like the new protagonist after Marion dies.

1246
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 3: Then she is because as we were discussing earlier, like

1247
01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:00,360
Speaker 3: she's better at like going about this whole thing as

1248
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 3: far as like investigating her sister's disappearance. She has better ideas,

1249
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:08,080
Speaker 3: she's got better execution, Like I just I wish that

1250
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 3: she had been allowed to be a bit more important

1251
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 3: to the story because instead it becomes about like it's

1252
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 3: her and it's Sam and it's Arbagaust and then Norman

1253
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:26,320
Speaker 3: Bates is the person that we're like, Actually, I don't

1254
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 3: even know what the movie who. The movie is like

1255
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 3: trying to get you to identify with as like the

1256
01:15:32,479 --> 01:15:37,400
Speaker 3: character you're rooting for post Marian's death, because a protagonist

1257
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:40,720
Speaker 3: dying forty five minutes into the movie is a really

1258
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:43,640
Speaker 3: weird narrative choice, and like, I don't know what to

1259
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:48,280
Speaker 3: I think it rocks. It's interesting, but like audiences aren't

1260
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 3: trained how to like redirect their empathy to like who now,

1261
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 3: and like it's now spread over a bunch of different characters,

1262
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 3: and I guess I just wish like that Lila would

1263
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 3: have been POI there's like the new main person that

1264
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:05,400
Speaker 3: we were supposed to direct our empathy toward.

1265
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean I do love that.

1266
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 5: Like I said, I love horror movies, but like you know,

1267
01:16:10,600 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 5: sometimes in the beginning of them, you can just kind

1268
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:17,240
Speaker 5: of quickly identify who's like cannon fodder that this is

1269
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:20,360
Speaker 5: kind of the opposite of that. But I know, I

1270
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:22,600
Speaker 5: don't want to kind of bring new bad news. But

1271
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:26,360
Speaker 5: like I mean, Hitchcock treats Vera Miles, who played Lilah

1272
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:29,640
Speaker 5: Crane like that because he was really angry at her for.

1273
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:33,439
Speaker 2: Getting pregnant, so she gives her not much to do,

1274
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 2: and he kind.

1275
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:38,960
Speaker 5: Of dresses her to be like really like Dowdy, and

1276
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:43,600
Speaker 5: she doesn't kind of get like the heroic moment, and

1277
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:46,000
Speaker 5: he like really downplays her to me.

1278
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 2: He kind of positions her as big, like the the

1279
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:50,800
Speaker 2: lesser sister, and.

1280
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 3: She's damseled at the end where she has to be

1281
01:16:53,240 --> 01:16:58,040
Speaker 3: saved by Sam who comes in and saves her from Norman. Wow,

1282
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,599
Speaker 3: Hitchcock is a monster.

1283
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 4: I was really frustrated, like how difficult that information was

1284
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 4: to find as well, Like that is not presented as

1285
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:14,040
Speaker 4: even in the like sort of reappraisal of Alfred Hitchcock

1286
01:17:14,200 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 4: and female actors and women characters and all this stuff

1287
01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:20,720
Speaker 4: that doesn't come up a lot, which I guess maybe

1288
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:25,560
Speaker 4: is because it's kind of a blip comparatively, but like logistically,

1289
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 4: even if you're trying to streamline this movie, Sam is

1290
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 4: very much in the way in the back half of

1291
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 4: that movie. It would have been very simple to give

1292
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 4: Lila kind of an elevated role, and you know, maybe

1293
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:42,559
Speaker 4: it is more realistic that she'd have to bump up

1294
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:45,320
Speaker 4: against this guy that thinks he knows what he's doing

1295
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:49,680
Speaker 4: or thinks that he knows her sister better than cheetahs

1296
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 4: or whatever. Different kind of blips come up between them,

1297
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:55,560
Speaker 4: but it's like he's mostly in the way, And like

1298
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 4: Lilah's character, we also just don't really know anything about

1299
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 4: her outside of the fact that she's Mary and sister.

1300
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 4: We don't know like, is she also a single girl?

1301
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:08,800
Speaker 4: Are they super close? It seems like they are, but

1302
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:09,479
Speaker 4: we don't really.

1303
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:10,799
Speaker 3: Know what are her hobbies.

1304
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:14,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's just that throwaway line at the beginning where

1305
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 5: I mean, they do you kind of like off handby

1306
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:18,840
Speaker 5: kind of suggests that she's like a bit pathetic or

1307
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:21,160
Speaker 5: it's just like, well, you know when Sam talks about her,

1308
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:23,519
Speaker 5: like we'll send her off to the movies and turn

1309
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 5: the picture of your mother around and kind of get busy.

1310
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:28,959
Speaker 1: It's frustrating.

1311
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think like we could have I don't know

1312
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 4: if the way she would have been written in nineteen sixty.

1313
01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 4: I also don't really have a clear idea of how

1314
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:39,080
Speaker 4: she's presented in the book and how much that was changed.

1315
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 4: But it just felt like I was happy she was there,

1316
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 4: and I was happy that she was I guess, yeah,

1317
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 4: more active than I would have expected, especially because Sam

1318
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:50,439
Speaker 4: is in all of those scenes and you sort of

1319
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 4: half expect that he's going to be like, we have

1320
01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:54,519
Speaker 4: to do this, this, and this, where most of the

1321
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:59,160
Speaker 4: actions they take are orchestrated by her. But ultimately I

1322
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 4: feel like we're kind of short changed. The opportunity to

1323
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:04,880
Speaker 4: see kind of who she is, and the fact that

1324
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 4: that's connected to Hitchcock's malicious treatment of women he worked

1325
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 4: with just sort of puts a bow in it. I mean,

1326
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 4: I guess that this is worth going through in brief

1327
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:22,880
Speaker 4: will include links to more thorough sources on this, but

1328
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:24,519
Speaker 4: because this is the first time we've talked about a

1329
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:28,320
Speaker 4: Hitchcock movie on this show, if you have not encountered

1330
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:35,280
Speaker 4: not really a feminist hero that Alfred Hitchcock was famously

1331
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,600
Speaker 4: abusive and coercive to a number of women that he

1332
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:42,640
Speaker 4: worked with, I think most famously and the women that

1333
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:46,400
Speaker 4: he worked with who has spoken out about it most extensively.

1334
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: Lele.

1335
01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:50,920
Speaker 4: You referenced earlier Tippy Hedron in the movie That Made

1336
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 4: My Classmates and definitely not me p The Birds, where

1337
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:59,160
Speaker 4: not only was she treated brutally on the set of

1338
01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:03,120
Speaker 4: that shoot, he was also relentlessly sexually harassing her behind

1339
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,760
Speaker 4: the scenes, controlling her behavior, controlling her food intake, and

1340
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 4: just generally making her entire early career a living hell.

1341
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 4: She spoke out on this in a number of times

1342
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 4: starting in the nineteen eighties, but was mostly brushed to

1343
01:20:18,240 --> 01:20:21,600
Speaker 4: the side until she released mmoir in I think it

1344
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:24,640
Speaker 4: was twenty sixteen or seventeen and spoke about it in

1345
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 4: more detail. Similar stories exist for the actor Brigitte o'bert,

1346
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:34,559
Speaker 4: who played a part in To Catch a Thief, who

1347
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 4: was sort.

1348
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:39,960
Speaker 1: Of taken on as a you know, mentee by Alfred Hitchcock.

1349
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:41,719
Speaker 4: She was thrilled about it, she is a young actor,

1350
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 4: and then he you know, sexually assaulted her in a car,

1351
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:48,360
Speaker 4: lunged at her, tried to kiss her, et cetera. That's

1352
01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:51,519
Speaker 4: well documented different women who worked.

1353
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:52,120
Speaker 1: In his offices.

1354
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:54,799
Speaker 4: It was just like a very clear pattern of behavior

1355
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:58,240
Speaker 4: that was I think in the way that these stories

1356
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:02,400
Speaker 4: very often are just like an open secret internally, but

1357
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:06,680
Speaker 4: it's almost tacitly expected that no one should know or

1358
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 4: should care because of the looming shadow of like what

1359
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:17,360
Speaker 4: this director means to culture and you know, bloody fucking black.

1360
01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:20,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I I'm feeling like very protective of like

1361
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:23,599
Speaker 5: my kind of twelve year old film found self, who's

1362
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:25,040
Speaker 5: just like, oh my god.

1363
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:27,519
Speaker 2: A Hitchcock box set and a Kubrick box set.

1364
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:28,519
Speaker 4: What could the role?

1365
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:30,479
Speaker 3: It's not there.

1366
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:37,519
Speaker 5: I mean, I think the interesting thing about Hitchcock is

1367
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:40,519
Speaker 5: I'm not in any way trying to like excuse like

1368
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:42,519
Speaker 5: the rank misogyny, and I think you can see it

1369
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:46,080
Speaker 5: on the screen, and like, you know, he's a wonderfully

1370
01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:48,880
Speaker 5: talented director in many regards, Like that doesn't make any

1371
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 5: of that suck less. But I think there's a weird

1372
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:57,080
Speaker 5: kind of cyclical thing happens that because he's so convinced

1373
01:21:57,120 --> 01:22:00,280
Speaker 5: of like the kind of passivity of men and like

1374
01:22:00,520 --> 01:22:06,400
Speaker 5: connected to like essentially blaming women for their actions where

1375
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:10,040
Speaker 5: they weakly end up being like the most compelling character

1376
01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:12,640
Speaker 5: in each one of his films is like the men

1377
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 5: are kind of like useless babies a lot of the

1378
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:18,360
Speaker 5: time because like the original sin must go back to

1379
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:24,320
Speaker 5: the woman, so she ends up being like inadversently the

1380
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:25,320
Speaker 5: most like the.

1381
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:26,080
Speaker 2: Core of it all.

1382
01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:28,840
Speaker 4: I think Married is like a good example of that too,

1383
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:32,640
Speaker 4: where it's like the compelling parts of Marian's character, I

1384
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 4: genuinely don't know at every turn whether I am supposed

1385
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:41,040
Speaker 4: to be fascinated by her and excited by like who

1386
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:45,439
Speaker 4: she is and the choices she's making, but I am

1387
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:47,880
Speaker 4: If it's an accident, I guess I don't really give

1388
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:51,640
Speaker 4: a shit, Like it's good that you can find that

1389
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 4: inside of her and yeah, like you're saying, Leila, it

1390
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:56,559
Speaker 4: doesn't make Hitchcock less of a monster in the way

1391
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 4: that he both treated women and viewed them.

1392
01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:04,280
Speaker 1: This was in the Hitchcock Trufau interviews as well.

1393
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:09,679
Speaker 4: He was asked why do you hate women, and he answered,

1394
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 4: I don't exactly hate them, but I certainly don't think

1395
01:23:13,080 --> 01:23:15,280
Speaker 4: they're as good actors as men, and then goes on

1396
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:19,920
Speaker 4: to explain at length why women suck at acting and

1397
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:22,800
Speaker 4: that's why he has to be mean to them and

1398
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 4: be harder on them and dress them suggestively to distract

1399
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 4: from the fact that they are worse actors than men.

1400
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:31,240
Speaker 1: So it's so weird.

1401
01:23:31,320 --> 01:23:35,400
Speaker 4: It's like he I mean, not weird, it's I guess normal,

1402
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:38,759
Speaker 4: But I think he engaged in a mask off discussion

1403
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 4: of it that is pretty wild, where he was pretty

1404
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 4: open about his misogynist views on women's skills and ability

1405
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:51,600
Speaker 4: and valuing them for looks over talent, but also was

1406
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:56,920
Speaker 4: sort of really determined that how that manifested in his

1407
01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:01,679
Speaker 4: behavior was never public till well after he died.

1408
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:04,400
Speaker 5: Like, gee, Alfred, is there anything else that maybe be

1409
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:06,280
Speaker 5: dealing with on the set that the man.

1410
01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:09,360
Speaker 2: Might be making that job's hot?

1411
01:24:09,800 --> 01:24:10,960
Speaker 1: Ah, it didn't occur to him.

1412
01:24:11,160 --> 01:24:17,160
Speaker 3: God And speaking of like blaming women and women are

1413
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:20,880
Speaker 3: sinners who must be punted, like the speech that the

1414
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:24,920
Speaker 3: psychiatrist is giving at the end, where like poor Lilah,

1415
01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:28,920
Speaker 3: she just keeps being like, is my sister dead or what?

1416
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:31,960
Speaker 3: Like she still doesn't even know what happened to her sister,

1417
01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:36,400
Speaker 3: and the psychiatrist, yeah, just said, well, she was really

1418
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:39,800
Speaker 3: sexy and that's why she's dead because she was so

1419
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:44,519
Speaker 3: attractive and Norman Bates was so attracted to her and

1420
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 3: so aroused by her that he had to kill her. Okay,

1421
01:24:49,280 --> 01:24:52,639
Speaker 3: she dude, read the room frame this a little bit.

1422
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:54,760
Speaker 4: Seriously.

1423
01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:59,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, her sister literally died.

1424
01:25:00,240 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that needs to I mean I did

1425
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:05,599
Speaker 5: kind of think that the Bobby movie doesn't need a sequel,

1426
01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:07,840
Speaker 5: but maybe it's ken watching.

1427
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:12,439
Speaker 1: Psycho truly they showed in the Godfather, but there's a

1428
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 1: whole world out there.

1429
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:16,880
Speaker 3: There's other movies. I don't even know what to make

1430
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:19,360
Speaker 3: of this line exactly, but there's a part where when

1431
01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:24,240
Speaker 3: Arbagast goes to question Norman Bates and he's just like,

1432
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:28,479
Speaker 3: was it like this woman was here? I know she was,

1433
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:31,760
Speaker 3: and you know, maybe she tricked you, or like maybe

1434
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:35,720
Speaker 3: she's trying to scheme you, And Norman Bates says something like,

1435
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:39,439
Speaker 3: I'm not a fool and I'm not capable of being fooled,

1436
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:41,160
Speaker 3: not even by a woman I.

1437
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 5: Know, and then like, just to kind of make it

1438
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:45,920
Speaker 5: all the more twisted, it was just like, but even

1439
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:47,920
Speaker 5: if I was fulled, my mother wouldn't be pulled.

1440
01:25:48,360 --> 01:25:54,480
Speaker 2: She's okay. Way to make it all the women's fault again.

1441
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:56,479
Speaker 1: They're like, what it did? Seem like?

1442
01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:59,000
Speaker 4: That seems was making an effort to blame every woman

1443
01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:02,280
Speaker 4: we have seen in the entire movie before or heard of,

1444
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:05,719
Speaker 4: because we don't ever see them on What a Treat.

1445
01:26:06,439 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is just my favorite thing of fiction though,

1446
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:14,160
Speaker 5: Like these like unassuming man babies, I mean, like the

1447
01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 5: true evil in the world.

1448
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:17,040
Speaker 2: I really like it when they're identified.

1449
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:21,160
Speaker 3: Yeah that is Norman Baits to a tea. Yeah, I

1450
01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:24,080
Speaker 3: mean the point where he still has like stuffed animals

1451
01:26:24,160 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 3: in his bedroom and like, okay, a little tiny baby bed.

1452
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:32,880
Speaker 2: Okay, I feel like this is going to be pitch.

1453
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:35,000
Speaker 5: This is my next piece, the kind of Norman Baits

1454
01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:37,120
Speaker 5: to five hundred Days of Summer Pipeline.

1455
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:44,920
Speaker 3: Yes, I would read that one percent on it. Does

1456
01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:47,439
Speaker 3: anyone else have anything they'd like to discuss?

1457
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:51,760
Speaker 4: I have one more quick thing just about going kind

1458
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:55,360
Speaker 4: of back to the discussion of Norman Baits as an

1459
01:26:55,640 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 4: iconic movie serial killer and how serial killers are this

1460
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:08,000
Speaker 4: fixation of and to some extent, invention of the media

1461
01:27:08,160 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 4: and media narratives, and just watching it again. It's not

1462
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:14,960
Speaker 4: a movie that's discussed in this piece, but it's one

1463
01:27:14,960 --> 01:27:17,640
Speaker 4: of my favorites and by friend of the cast and

1464
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:20,840
Speaker 4: a dear pal, Sarah Marshall wrote a great piece in

1465
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:25,360
Speaker 4: The Believer last year called Violent Delights, sort of about

1466
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:30,519
Speaker 4: the specifically American media fixation on serial killers and sort

1467
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:34,920
Speaker 4: of examining true crime fandom as it exists today. The

1468
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:38,719
Speaker 4: passage I was thinking of while we're looking at Norman

1469
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:43,160
Speaker 4: Bates and the fact that he was inspired by a

1470
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:44,519
Speaker 4: real life serial killer.

1471
01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:45,120
Speaker 1: Although, as you.

1472
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 4: Explained, Caitlin, the gender non conforming elements were way mis

1473
01:27:51,120 --> 01:27:57,920
Speaker 4: translated onto Norman Bates. But just how the serial killers

1474
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 4: that media narratives and movies tend to focus on are

1475
01:28:02,080 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 4: serial killers who are other in some kind of way

1476
01:28:06,840 --> 01:28:11,439
Speaker 4: and ignore the most common type of serial murder, which

1477
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:15,479
Speaker 4: is a straight man. And so the example that she

1478
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:19,599
Speaker 4: uses in the piece is someone who had never heard

1479
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:22,639
Speaker 4: of before I met Sarah and she told me about

1480
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:27,400
Speaker 4: all these serial killers is Ronald Gene Simmons, who is

1481
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:32,920
Speaker 4: not a well known American serial killer, but committed at

1482
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:37,320
Speaker 4: the time one of the most horrific mass murders, including

1483
01:28:37,400 --> 01:28:40,439
Speaker 4: his entire family, over the course of two days. And

1484
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:43,479
Speaker 4: she speculates the reason that he has not fixated on

1485
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:46,280
Speaker 4: is because there is nothing that's other about him. He

1486
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:50,920
Speaker 4: is a regular guy who committed a horrible atrocity. And

1487
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:53,560
Speaker 4: how that is framed as kind of the way of

1488
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:57,040
Speaker 4: the world, even though it is like far more criminal

1489
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:01,639
Speaker 4: act of murder than we see when women kill people

1490
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:05,439
Speaker 4: and when queer people kill other people, it's presented in

1491
01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:08,560
Speaker 4: a different way where it's like fundamentally evil, this is

1492
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:12,240
Speaker 4: at the core of their being, versus when we hear

1493
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:15,920
Speaker 4: about straight men killing people and usually white straight men

1494
01:29:16,040 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 4: killing people that it's presented as well they were reacting

1495
01:29:20,360 --> 01:29:23,599
Speaker 4: to the world, not that they are evil to their core.

1496
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:27,800
Speaker 4: And so just in the way that Norman Bates is

1497
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:33,479
Speaker 4: othered and made to seem effeminate and dresses, you know,

1498
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:36,920
Speaker 4: like we were saying gender nonconforming, it feels like those

1499
01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:40,559
Speaker 4: are the characters that really get fixated on and made

1500
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:45,439
Speaker 4: examples of in this completely disingenuous way. And I'd recommend

1501
01:29:45,479 --> 01:29:46,880
Speaker 4: reading the piece. It's really interesting.

1502
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:50,719
Speaker 5: I mean, it's fascinating to me that like ed Gean

1503
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:57,280
Speaker 5: has generally got like problematic elements aside eight great movies,

1504
01:29:58,000 --> 01:30:01,880
Speaker 5: and like nobody else I didn't think comes like close

1505
01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:02,160
Speaker 5: to that.

1506
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:04,360
Speaker 1: It's wild. I didn't realize we've got.

1507
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:06,640
Speaker 5: This, We've got Texas Chainsaw, we got Silence of the

1508
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:11,519
Speaker 5: like that, Like ed Gean, it's really interesting how he

1509
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:16,320
Speaker 5: in particular captured like the cultural imagination, the way that

1510
01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:18,679
Speaker 5: they are yet to make a decent Ted Bundy movie,

1511
01:30:18,800 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 5: and like I mean that, you know, for a million

1512
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:24,120
Speaker 5: gross reasons. And I don't even want to like get

1513
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:26,120
Speaker 5: into like the way that Ted Bundy has been freed

1514
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:28,240
Speaker 5: by the media because it just will meersen it is.

1515
01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:32,599
Speaker 5: But like it is very interesting that like this one

1516
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:35,400
Speaker 5: guy and just these couple of details where it's like

1517
01:30:35,479 --> 01:30:38,760
Speaker 5: we've got it's essentially the grave robbing. It's the kind

1518
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:41,400
Speaker 5: of taxi and we maybe doing leather work something with

1519
01:30:41,560 --> 01:30:44,679
Speaker 5: like people's skin, and it's like just the hint of quickness,

1520
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 5: and like that was enough to inspire, Like it was

1521
01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:51,400
Speaker 5: like Helen Detroita, he'd like launched a thousand ships in

1522
01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:53,120
Speaker 5: terms of like cultural imagination.

1523
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:58,360
Speaker 3: Similarly, the movie Psycho, where the last thing I want

1524
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:01,920
Speaker 3: to talk about is and I'm not an expert in

1525
01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 3: film history, but this movie was made in nineteen sixty

1526
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:09,840
Speaker 3: when the production code, which we've talked about on the

1527
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:14,439
Speaker 3: show before in various episodes, just very quick refresher if

1528
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:18,280
Speaker 3: any listeners are not familiar. It was this code that

1529
01:31:18,360 --> 01:31:22,000
Speaker 3: Hollywood movies had to follow from nineteen thirty four to

1530
01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:26,320
Speaker 3: I believe nineteen sixty eight, I think was when it

1531
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:30,920
Speaker 3: was replaced by the MPAA rating system. But basically it

1532
01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:36,360
Speaker 3: was this like set of guidelines that was overseen by

1533
01:31:36,439 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church, where like there could be no nudity

1534
01:31:41,680 --> 01:31:45,040
Speaker 3: or overt sexuality on screen. A lot of things had

1535
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:47,320
Speaker 3: to be implied rather than shown there could be no

1536
01:31:47,439 --> 01:31:50,800
Speaker 3: graphic violence, all these different things just as a way

1537
01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:51,840
Speaker 3: to censor movies.

1538
01:31:52,040 --> 01:31:54,960
Speaker 5: No interracial relationships where they work to treat it as equals,

1539
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:55,720
Speaker 5: and that was a fun one.

1540
01:31:56,320 --> 01:32:00,639
Speaker 3: All kinds of like really disgusting stuff that was scene

1541
01:32:01,200 --> 01:32:04,400
Speaker 3: as a way to like, you know, promote good American

1542
01:32:04,960 --> 01:32:08,920
Speaker 3: religious values, when it was really just censoring art and

1543
01:32:09,360 --> 01:32:14,880
Speaker 3: being nasty. But anyway, by the sixties, the code, the

1544
01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:17,759
Speaker 3: restrictions of the Code were becoming a bit more lax.

1545
01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:22,759
Speaker 3: They're still being enforced, but filmmakers were like finding ways

1546
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:27,320
Speaker 3: to like try to circumvent the restrictions and stuff like that,

1547
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:31,600
Speaker 3: and a lot of the things that were in the

1548
01:32:31,640 --> 01:32:35,519
Speaker 3: original cut of Psycho, you know, the board were like,

1549
01:32:35,760 --> 01:32:38,759
Speaker 3: you can't have this scene where they're in a hotel

1550
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:41,479
Speaker 3: room where she's half naked, like you know, she's topless

1551
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:44,519
Speaker 3: with just a bra on and they're kissing and they're

1552
01:32:44,560 --> 01:32:46,680
Speaker 3: not marry, Like, you can't have stuff like that, the

1553
01:32:46,960 --> 01:32:48,960
Speaker 3: shower scene that you know, they obviously had a lot

1554
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:52,799
Speaker 3: of problems with the shower scene, but eventually, like Hitchcock

1555
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:55,080
Speaker 3: wormed his way out of it, and a lot of

1556
01:32:55,160 --> 01:32:58,759
Speaker 3: the stuff that he originally wanted stayed in the film,

1557
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 3: and because this was such a huge, like box office hit.

1558
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:08,519
Speaker 3: This movie was made on a tight budget even for

1559
01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:10,280
Speaker 3: the time. It was made for less than a million

1560
01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:15,639
Speaker 3: dollars and it grossed fifty million dollars at the box office.

1561
01:33:16,040 --> 01:33:19,160
Speaker 3: Like it was just a huge smash hit, to the

1562
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:22,280
Speaker 3: point where the original critical reception of this movie was

1563
01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:26,439
Speaker 3: like pretty mixed, where people were like, this is so controversial,

1564
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 3: I don't know about this, it's scandalous. But because like

1565
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:34,599
Speaker 3: audiences loved it, critics were like, maybe it is awesome.

1566
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:38,000
Speaker 3: And then it was like nominated for various Academy Awards

1567
01:33:38,479 --> 01:33:43,320
Speaker 3: all this stuff not Anthony Perkins, which is a crime ridiculous.

1568
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:48,560
Speaker 3: But anyway, this movie basically set a new level of

1569
01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:52,200
Speaker 3: like acceptability in terms of what you could show on

1570
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:58,880
Speaker 3: screen with violence and sexuality and quote unquote deviant behavior,

1571
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:03,360
Speaker 3: which is a very low noted idea, but this movie

1572
01:34:03,439 --> 01:34:06,240
Speaker 3: kind of like set a new standard. And again, this

1573
01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:09,160
Speaker 3: isn't the first movie that showed, you know, like a

1574
01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:14,880
Speaker 3: gender nonconforming person as a violent murderer. The documentary that

1575
01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:19,160
Speaker 3: we referenced earlier, Disclosure dives into that a lot more deeply.

1576
01:34:19,280 --> 01:34:23,720
Speaker 3: I'd recommend everyone watching that film. There's also another docuseries

1577
01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:29,439
Speaker 3: on Shutter called Queer for Fear, which is all about

1578
01:34:30,200 --> 01:34:35,080
Speaker 3: representation of queerness in horror movies. I haven't watched it,

1579
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:38,920
Speaker 3: so I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, but it seems interesting

1580
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:41,880
Speaker 3: and I'm going to watch it anyway. All this to

1581
01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:47,320
Speaker 3: say that this movie was so influential in sort of

1582
01:34:47,439 --> 01:34:51,599
Speaker 3: like shaping the way certain things were represented on screen.

1583
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:57,879
Speaker 3: And I think so much of the way mental illness

1584
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 3: is like widely misunderstood by Hollywood and gender nonconformity is

1585
01:35:03,280 --> 01:35:07,559
Speaker 3: widely misunderstood by Holiday can be attributed to this movie.

1586
01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:12,560
Speaker 3: So it has a lasting impact in many ways, and

1587
01:35:13,160 --> 01:35:15,160
Speaker 3: not all of them are good. In fact, many of

1588
01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:20,520
Speaker 3: them are very bad. Anyway, the end of my tirade.

1589
01:35:20,120 --> 01:35:23,560
Speaker 2: About that it's a tough one. Like I have to

1590
01:35:23,720 --> 01:35:26,360
Speaker 2: just like resist the mental gymnastics where I try to

1591
01:35:26,479 --> 01:35:28,640
Speaker 2: be like it's okay actually.

1592
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:35,560
Speaker 5: Because you know, I appreciate a great edit, but no,

1593
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:38,519
Speaker 5: I mean, like you have to kind of reconcile even

1594
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,840
Speaker 5: things that you appreciate, art that you think is great

1595
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:45,360
Speaker 5: with its like negative impact on the world, and like

1596
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:46,040
Speaker 5: that needs to.

1597
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:48,000
Speaker 2: Be I think the priority.

1598
01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:55,599
Speaker 3: I agree anything else before we do Bechdel tests.

1599
01:35:56,479 --> 01:36:00,120
Speaker 1: I like this movie. Unfortunately, I think.

1600
01:36:01,600 --> 01:36:04,479
Speaker 4: In spite of everything we've talked about and it's complete validity,

1601
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:06,519
Speaker 4: this movie rips and so that's challenging.

1602
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:09,000
Speaker 3: It is tricky, it is I call it.

1603
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:12,600
Speaker 2: I kind of created a name for it based on

1604
01:36:12,760 --> 01:36:14,120
Speaker 2: like Jered Carbichael has a.

1605
01:36:14,120 --> 01:36:16,360
Speaker 5: Really great episode of The Carmichael Show where he talks

1606
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:18,400
Speaker 5: about how like fundamentally we all have to kind of

1607
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:20,719
Speaker 5: make a decision based on like how talented and because

1608
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:25,760
Speaker 5: something is versus how like damaging it is. It's an

1609
01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:28,200
Speaker 5: episode where they're discussing Bill Cosby. But I have like

1610
01:36:28,360 --> 01:36:30,479
Speaker 5: taken that on mentally, and I call it the Elia

1611
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:36,360
Speaker 5: Kazan index. He sucked, but he was really good at movies.

1612
01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:39,240
Speaker 5: But so I consider that an index. And it's like you, I,

1613
01:36:39,840 --> 01:36:43,280
Speaker 5: this is how talented you need. I need you to

1614
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 5: be in order for me to recover from it that

1615
01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:49,439
Speaker 5: you are a force foot.

1616
01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:54,559
Speaker 1: And everyone's smile ish varies with that, right.

1617
01:36:54,960 --> 01:36:57,800
Speaker 5: I mean, I trust myself to watch Hitchcock and like

1618
01:36:58,080 --> 01:37:01,920
Speaker 5: not become like an agent of the patriot right, right.

1619
01:37:03,880 --> 01:37:07,120
Speaker 3: I know there's certain things that I struggle to let

1620
01:37:07,240 --> 01:37:11,680
Speaker 3: go of because they were made by someone very problematic,

1621
01:37:11,920 --> 01:37:16,280
Speaker 3: but they are such a terrific piece of media that

1622
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:19,680
Speaker 3: it's a constant battle that I fight every day.

1623
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:22,840
Speaker 1: And you're braver than the troops. For that, I we

1624
01:37:23,000 --> 01:37:25,240
Speaker 1: have to say it again. We run the front lines

1625
01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:28,160
Speaker 1: of watching movies, all three of us.

1626
01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:30,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, damn.

1627
01:37:31,520 --> 01:37:34,479
Speaker 2: The only thing that I would add because it's in

1628
01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:35,400
Speaker 2: all caps, so I.

1629
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:37,439
Speaker 1: Feel like I have to mention simply perfect.

1630
01:37:38,520 --> 01:37:41,000
Speaker 2: This is the best eyebrow movie I've ever seen in

1631
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:41,599
Speaker 2: my entire life.

1632
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:42,639
Speaker 1: Oh, you're right.

1633
01:37:44,040 --> 01:37:49,840
Speaker 5: Yes, every single character, like the Sheriff has like these

1634
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:55,559
Speaker 5: tough Yeah, Anthony Papkins, Janet Lye strong brow coming.

1635
01:37:55,400 --> 01:37:56,240
Speaker 2: On from Sam.

1636
01:37:57,080 --> 01:37:59,559
Speaker 1: It's true again, Like I.

1637
01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:03,640
Speaker 2: Don't want to be like reductive, but like what an

1638
01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:05,280
Speaker 2: eraror for the eyebrow.

1639
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:08,559
Speaker 3: I'll allow it. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

1640
01:38:09,200 --> 01:38:11,320
Speaker 5: I came out of like you know, I'm a millennial.

1641
01:38:11,560 --> 01:38:13,960
Speaker 5: Like we had a rough time and then we had

1642
01:38:14,040 --> 01:38:15,000
Speaker 5: to try and grow them.

1643
01:38:14,960 --> 01:38:19,760
Speaker 1: Back with varying degrees of success. It takes years and

1644
01:38:20,600 --> 01:38:24,200
Speaker 1: beforward your backward. It's challenging, truly.

1645
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:27,200
Speaker 5: So lucky that I was too lazy and too poor

1646
01:38:27,320 --> 01:38:32,760
Speaker 5: to get regular facing. But it's so nice to see

1647
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:35,080
Speaker 5: such a full set of brows across the.

1648
01:38:35,160 --> 01:38:36,160
Speaker 1: Cast is nice.

1649
01:38:36,200 --> 01:38:39,000
Speaker 3: I'm glad it's back. I'm glad of thick brow is

1650
01:38:39,320 --> 01:38:40,120
Speaker 3: back in vogue.

1651
01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 2: My preference, when does that ever happen?

1652
01:38:42,240 --> 01:38:44,800
Speaker 5: That like the thing that's like really in fashion and

1653
01:38:44,960 --> 01:38:47,280
Speaker 5: like really esthetically peasing to everyone. It's a thing that

1654
01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:49,400
Speaker 5: requires you should do nothing, just leave them.

1655
01:38:49,800 --> 01:38:50,880
Speaker 3: Can we have more of that?

1656
01:38:51,560 --> 01:38:51,760
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1657
01:38:52,760 --> 01:38:55,080
Speaker 1: As for the basel tiest, I do believe that this

1658
01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:55,879
Speaker 1: movie passes.

1659
01:38:56,120 --> 01:38:59,799
Speaker 3: Is it between Marian and her colleague in the office

1660
01:39:00,040 --> 01:39:01,000
Speaker 3: is at the beginning?

1661
01:39:01,280 --> 01:39:02,960
Speaker 1: Yes, whose name is Caroline?

1662
01:39:03,040 --> 01:39:03,240
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1663
01:39:03,240 --> 01:39:04,320
Speaker 2: Who's Hitchcock's daughter?

1664
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:05,880
Speaker 3: Oh, that's Hitchcock's daughter.

1665
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.

1666
01:39:08,960 --> 01:39:11,000
Speaker 5: Which is a brutal role for your dad to write

1667
01:39:11,040 --> 01:39:13,840
Speaker 5: you because like there is like a really like damning

1668
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:15,720
Speaker 5: line at the end where she's just like, oh, he

1669
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:17,879
Speaker 5: would have flootered at me, but he must have spotted

1670
01:39:17,960 --> 01:39:20,920
Speaker 5: my wedding ring. And that's like a punchline, like of

1671
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:23,000
Speaker 5: course he didn't rude Alfred.

1672
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:26,120
Speaker 1: I don't think they say her name out loud, but

1673
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:28,719
Speaker 1: she does have like her name is like on her desk,

1674
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:32,240
Speaker 1: so I considered her to be a named character. She's

1675
01:39:32,280 --> 01:39:33,600
Speaker 1: credited as Caroline.

1676
01:39:34,360 --> 01:39:36,519
Speaker 6: They talk about I was actually I was watching this

1677
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:38,960
Speaker 6: movie with my boyfriend, and we were like, I don't

1678
01:39:39,000 --> 01:39:41,840
Speaker 6: know if I have enough like knowledge of nineteen sixty

1679
01:39:41,920 --> 01:39:46,120
Speaker 6: to understand what the joke is with the sedatives. If

1680
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:49,439
Speaker 6: it's a mother's little helper joke, if it's a more

1681
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:51,679
Speaker 6: insidious joke than that, I was not clear.

1682
01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:54,400
Speaker 4: But she was like, don't take astrain. Take this like

1683
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:59,800
Speaker 4: tranquil my mom doctor gave me or something. And I

1684
01:39:59,840 --> 01:40:02,080
Speaker 4: was like, this seems like a joke that probably made

1685
01:40:02,120 --> 01:40:05,240
Speaker 4: sense at the time. It doesn't seem awesome, but I

1686
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:09,200
Speaker 4: don't fucking understand it same anyways, that passed.

1687
01:40:10,120 --> 01:40:10,720
Speaker 3: That does pass.

1688
01:40:11,040 --> 01:40:17,800
Speaker 5: Everyone's mother's just coming in and messing up, truly. Yeah,

1689
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:22,840
Speaker 5: my assumption with that joke is that like she took

1690
01:40:22,920 --> 01:40:25,840
Speaker 5: it and then passed out and was able to like

1691
01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:26,799
Speaker 5: consummate the marriage.

1692
01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:29,040
Speaker 2: But like maybe that's just oh god.

1693
01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:33,240
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean that that was one of the theories floated,

1694
01:40:33,479 --> 01:40:34,280
Speaker 1: But there just was.

1695
01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:36,240
Speaker 2: She was like so nervous.

1696
01:40:37,560 --> 01:40:40,320
Speaker 1: That joke was so dated that I found it actively confusing.

1697
01:40:40,479 --> 01:40:43,960
Speaker 1: But it did technically pass the vecyl tense did there

1698
01:40:44,040 --> 01:40:44,200
Speaker 1: you go?

1699
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:45,320
Speaker 5: There you go?

1700
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:49,400
Speaker 3: But onto our perfect metric the nipple.

1701
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:51,680
Speaker 1: Scale wofully titled metric.

1702
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:55,600
Speaker 3: Not to be confused with. Uh no, never mind. I

1703
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:57,320
Speaker 3: was going to make a reference to something that ed

1704
01:40:57,400 --> 01:40:59,720
Speaker 3: Geen had made, but I won't even if you want

1705
01:40:59,720 --> 01:41:03,519
Speaker 3: to look it up. Ooh you can, I think one

1706
01:41:03,560 --> 01:41:07,479
Speaker 3: you're thinking that, yeah, So instead I'll just breeze right

1707
01:41:07,560 --> 01:41:10,800
Speaker 3: past it. The nipple scale zero to five nipples where

1708
01:41:11,320 --> 01:41:14,640
Speaker 3: we rate the movie based on examining it through an

1709
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:21,800
Speaker 3: intersectional feminist lens. I guess I'll give this like a

1710
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:30,120
Speaker 3: one one nipple for because it does have interesting female

1711
01:41:30,360 --> 01:41:35,360
Speaker 3: characters to some degree. Granted, one of them is murdered

1712
01:41:36,040 --> 01:41:39,679
Speaker 3: forty five minutes into the movie. The other one doesn't

1713
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:43,400
Speaker 3: get a whole lot of screen time or active participation

1714
01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:48,920
Speaker 3: in the narrative. But I like both Marion and Lila

1715
01:41:49,040 --> 01:41:56,040
Speaker 3: as characters. They are strong willed, they are active to

1716
01:41:56,160 --> 01:42:01,439
Speaker 3: some degree. They are damseled and or killed, so they're

1717
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:08,120
Speaker 3: kind of they befall. Not a great fate befalls them,

1718
01:42:08,400 --> 01:42:12,960
Speaker 3: but the time they are on screen there I would

1719
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:15,400
Speaker 3: say more interesting than a lot of the male characters.

1720
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:25,519
Speaker 3: But ultimately, this is a movie that wildly misunderstands mental

1721
01:42:25,560 --> 01:42:34,600
Speaker 3: illness and conflates gender nonconformity with violence being violent and

1722
01:42:35,280 --> 01:42:40,920
Speaker 3: does a whole lot of extremely reductive and harmful things

1723
01:42:41,760 --> 01:42:46,240
Speaker 3: to extremely vulnerable communities and kind of paves the way

1724
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:50,400
Speaker 3: for a lot of movies to do similar things later on.

1725
01:42:51,840 --> 01:42:55,040
Speaker 3: So it kind of again doesn't completely lay the groundwork

1726
01:42:55,160 --> 01:42:58,880
Speaker 3: for this. Earlier movies had done something similar, but this

1727
01:42:59,120 --> 01:43:02,559
Speaker 3: is a one of the most iconic movies in American

1728
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:07,240
Speaker 3: cinema history, and the implications of what happens in the

1729
01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:11,479
Speaker 3: movie have had a very lasting impact for worse. So

1730
01:43:12,479 --> 01:43:16,640
Speaker 3: I can only give it one nipple, and I'll give

1731
01:43:16,680 --> 01:43:23,760
Speaker 3: that nipple to janetly because she is cool. I don't

1732
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:26,200
Speaker 3: know much about her personal life, but she rocked.

1733
01:43:26,760 --> 01:43:31,760
Speaker 1: She's famously Jamie Lee Curtis's mom, Mommy, and this movie

1734
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:33,240
Speaker 1: is about Mommy's.

1735
01:43:33,080 --> 01:43:35,519
Speaker 2: Went through the nightmare being married to Tony Kasis.

1736
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:39,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's a survivor, but also not because she died,

1737
01:43:40,200 --> 01:43:45,519
Speaker 4: but only because she result Anyways, Well, on that note,

1738
01:43:45,600 --> 01:43:56,599
Speaker 4: I guess, and I meant that critical.

1739
01:43:57,000 --> 01:44:04,280
Speaker 1: I meant that how dare is she? Technically, if you

1740
01:44:04,360 --> 01:44:06,040
Speaker 1: live long enough, no one's a survivor.

1741
01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:11,559
Speaker 2: That is the direction that survivors goes.

1742
01:44:11,760 --> 01:44:14,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's survivor damas temporary.

1743
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:18,280
Speaker 1: It's a finite di finishing returns on being alive.

1744
01:44:19,040 --> 01:44:22,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, Well, I guess I will go one.

1745
01:44:22,640 --> 01:44:24,920
Speaker 4: I guess I'm tempded to go one and a half because.

1746
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:27,200
Speaker 1: Of how surprised I was at what was available in

1747
01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:28,800
Speaker 1: this movie and what had.

1748
01:44:28,840 --> 01:44:33,759
Speaker 4: Changed to scale back the misogyny present in the original text,

1749
01:44:33,920 --> 01:44:38,200
Speaker 4: which I feel like usually that is flipped, but I

1750
01:44:38,240 --> 01:44:41,559
Speaker 4: don't know. I guess whoever edits the Wikipedia these days

1751
01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:42,960
Speaker 4: you can choose.

1752
01:44:42,760 --> 01:44:45,200
Speaker 1: One or one and a half depending on how you

1753
01:44:45,400 --> 01:44:46,200
Speaker 1: personally feel.

1754
01:44:46,680 --> 01:44:51,200
Speaker 4: But I mean, obviously, I think that the biggest issue

1755
01:44:51,240 --> 01:44:54,600
Speaker 4: with this movie is, as we've talked about, how the

1756
01:44:54,800 --> 01:44:58,800
Speaker 4: character of Norman Bates contains all of these conflicting things

1757
01:44:58,880 --> 01:45:05,320
Speaker 4: being presented as evil, with the gender nonconformity being front

1758
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:07,920
Speaker 4: and center for what has this legacy of harm, and

1759
01:45:08,000 --> 01:45:15,920
Speaker 4: then also mental illness being mischaracterized as inherently incurable, untreatable, violent,

1760
01:45:16,080 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 4: murderous bad. So that I think is the part of

1761
01:45:21,080 --> 01:45:23,920
Speaker 4: this movie that is just kind of impossible for me

1762
01:45:24,080 --> 01:45:27,479
Speaker 4: to reconcile to some extent. Then I think that, you know,

1763
01:45:27,600 --> 01:45:31,760
Speaker 4: whether intentionally or not, there's wait, okay, sorry, my cat's here.

1764
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:35,080
Speaker 1: Flee present.

1765
01:45:35,560 --> 01:45:39,840
Speaker 4: Flee has entered the chating, So loud, But I think

1766
01:45:39,920 --> 01:45:43,559
Speaker 4: as far as how much we get to know Marian,

1767
01:45:43,680 --> 01:45:46,120
Speaker 4: how her perspective is prioritized.

1768
01:45:46,160 --> 01:45:48,679
Speaker 1: For the first half of the movie, I was pleasantly

1769
01:45:48,720 --> 01:45:51,439
Speaker 1: surprised by I was on her side. It felt like

1770
01:45:51,479 --> 01:45:52,479
Speaker 1: the movie was on her side.

1771
01:45:53,080 --> 01:45:58,360
Speaker 4: I felt like Lilah was underplayed, and then that leads

1772
01:45:58,400 --> 01:46:02,920
Speaker 4: to Hitchcock's like see of misogyny and why Lyla's.

1773
01:46:02,520 --> 01:46:03,479
Speaker 1: Character was underplayed.

1774
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:05,599
Speaker 4: So for everything we've talked about today, I guess I'm

1775
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:09,880
Speaker 4: gonna go one and a half for some reason arbitrarily,

1776
01:46:10,320 --> 01:46:12,920
Speaker 4: and I'm gonna give one to Janet Lee and I'll

1777
01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:15,400
Speaker 4: give the other half two Vera miles because she had

1778
01:46:15,439 --> 01:46:17,160
Speaker 4: to endure a lot and didn't get to do what

1779
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:18,120
Speaker 4: she should have been able.

1780
01:46:17,960 --> 01:46:18,840
Speaker 1: To do on this movie.

1781
01:46:19,720 --> 01:46:22,360
Speaker 5: I mean, I think I'm meantually gonna like do a

1782
01:46:22,840 --> 01:46:25,760
Speaker 5: reasonably big boost and go with like two and a half.

1783
01:46:26,600 --> 01:46:31,320
Speaker 5: But like, I don't credit any of that, particularly to Hitchcark.

1784
01:46:31,640 --> 01:46:38,799
Speaker 5: I think it's sort of he inadvertently centered queer stories

1785
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:42,320
Speaker 5: in women's stories, like within this movie in a way

1786
01:46:42,400 --> 01:46:44,479
Speaker 5: that like, for all that it's problematic, it is at

1787
01:46:44,600 --> 01:46:48,400
Speaker 5: least compelling and like particularly like within the job that

1788
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:50,920
Speaker 5: I do, and like I have to just like review

1789
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:52,720
Speaker 5: like film for a week and stuff. It's like so

1790
01:46:54,120 --> 01:47:00,559
Speaker 5: often where I'm just having to see women and anybody

1791
01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:04,519
Speaker 5: from mardualized gender like use this kind of like narrative

1792
01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:10,200
Speaker 5: tools to kind of help straight suspens character arcs that

1793
01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:14,120
Speaker 5: like this still feels like refreshing that I was just

1794
01:47:14,200 --> 01:47:17,519
Speaker 5: like I don't think Psycho expects me to give a

1795
01:47:17,520 --> 01:47:20,599
Speaker 5: shit about what Sam's up to, and like that's still

1796
01:47:20,840 --> 01:47:21,200
Speaker 5: kind of.

1797
01:47:21,560 --> 01:47:24,280
Speaker 2: For all of like the problems with it.

1798
01:47:25,200 --> 01:47:29,560
Speaker 5: That feels nice to like actually be like ganantly was

1799
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:34,080
Speaker 5: given the space to make a character like we are

1800
01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:36,840
Speaker 5: kind of going into for all of its issue. All

1801
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:39,439
Speaker 5: of Norman bates his relationship with Muy is the central

1802
01:47:39,520 --> 01:47:42,040
Speaker 5: thing in his life. It's not all about him just

1803
01:47:42,080 --> 01:47:44,200
Speaker 5: trying to like trying to impress other dudes. Like I

1804
01:47:44,280 --> 01:47:46,559
Speaker 5: don't give a crap in those scenes, but like Sam

1805
01:47:46,640 --> 01:47:48,719
Speaker 5: and Norman are kind of like having some weird alpha

1806
01:47:48,840 --> 01:47:50,559
Speaker 5: beta male kind of like stand off.

1807
01:47:51,160 --> 01:47:56,000
Speaker 2: So like, yeah, I don't credit Hitchcock.

1808
01:47:55,520 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 5: With like doing this on purpose, but like where he

1809
01:47:58,840 --> 01:48:03,400
Speaker 5: made the the people in the film that mattered most

1810
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:07,760
Speaker 5: like strangely like suberversive and progressive and exciting to me,

1811
01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:13,120
Speaker 5: and I I don't know how much like janetly brought

1812
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:15,560
Speaker 5: to that, how much like you know the story that

1813
01:48:15,880 --> 01:48:18,000
Speaker 5: I don't know how much like Anthony Perkins bought of

1814
01:48:18,080 --> 01:48:21,000
Speaker 5: his like personal story. But I feel now watching it

1815
01:48:21,680 --> 01:48:24,479
Speaker 5: seeing the way that like obviously an actress like Janitely

1816
01:48:24,560 --> 01:48:26,960
Speaker 5: would have been objectified her whole life, the way that

1817
01:48:27,080 --> 01:48:29,840
Speaker 5: like Anthony Perkins would have to have like suppressed so

1818
01:48:29,960 --> 01:48:32,160
Speaker 5: much of his identity, I feel like I'm watching that

1819
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:34,839
Speaker 5: on screen and like that's me is like genuinely exciting

1820
01:48:34,920 --> 01:48:35,240
Speaker 5: and cool.

1821
01:48:36,280 --> 01:48:37,640
Speaker 1: Oh that's such a cool word about it.

1822
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:39,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you have anyone you want to give your

1823
01:48:39,320 --> 01:48:39,840
Speaker 3: nipples too?

1824
01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:42,320
Speaker 5: I think I feel like I need to give them

1825
01:48:42,320 --> 01:48:44,840
Speaker 5: to Jamie Lee Curtis, because like what a burden to

1826
01:48:44,960 --> 01:48:49,920
Speaker 5: charry when your career. I like, and I love that,

1827
01:48:50,120 --> 01:48:52,639
Speaker 5: like when a NEPO baby is just like so open

1828
01:48:52,800 --> 01:48:54,560
Speaker 5: with just like hey got down to me and like

1829
01:48:54,680 --> 01:48:57,000
Speaker 5: three other people for Halloween and they were like, well,

1830
01:48:57,040 --> 01:48:59,200
Speaker 5: make a couple of headlines if it's like the syrup

1831
01:48:59,200 --> 01:49:02,040
Speaker 5: Psycher's daughter and just fully open about it.

1832
01:49:02,320 --> 01:49:05,360
Speaker 2: Like I mean, I love Jamie Lee curs I do too.

1833
01:49:05,720 --> 01:49:08,840
Speaker 4: I'm like that's I guess the least you could ask

1834
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:11,280
Speaker 4: of someone in that position is just to be honest

1835
01:49:11,320 --> 01:49:14,080
Speaker 4: about it, And it seems like she is like uniquely

1836
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:16,439
Speaker 4: able to be honest about it because most people are like,

1837
01:49:16,520 --> 01:49:18,599
Speaker 4: I don't know, I guess they just did my best

1838
01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:19,639
Speaker 4: and worked harder.

1839
01:49:20,240 --> 01:49:23,880
Speaker 1: You're just like okay, But you.

1840
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:26,400
Speaker 5: Know, Jack Quaid is like seems to be like the

1841
01:49:26,479 --> 01:49:29,439
Speaker 5: gen Z version of Jamie Leaue curses because he's out

1842
01:49:29,479 --> 01:49:30,320
Speaker 5: on those picket lines.

1843
01:49:30,320 --> 01:49:32,720
Speaker 2: I saw him pictures of him today, so it's like, yeah,

1844
01:49:33,040 --> 01:49:33,639
Speaker 2: some of that get.

1845
01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:37,520
Speaker 1: Oh is he Dennis Quaid's song Meg Ryan and Dennis.

1846
01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:39,320
Speaker 2: Nis Quaid and Meghan right, Meg Ryan?

1847
01:49:40,920 --> 01:49:42,960
Speaker 3: I remember they have a kid together.

1848
01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:45,559
Speaker 2: I think they have multiple damn.

1849
01:49:46,080 --> 01:49:51,439
Speaker 3: Well, well, thank you so much for joining us. Do

1850
01:49:51,520 --> 01:49:53,840
Speaker 3: you want to talk at all about the Latif Test.

1851
01:49:54,560 --> 01:49:56,560
Speaker 3: I feel like it's like such a great thing that

1852
01:49:56,640 --> 01:49:59,000
Speaker 3: you did, and I'd love to like give it credit

1853
01:49:59,240 --> 01:49:59,880
Speaker 3: if you liked.

1854
01:50:00,600 --> 01:50:00,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1855
01:50:01,040 --> 01:50:03,960
Speaker 5: I mean, it's like the Bechdel Test was my path

1856
01:50:04,200 --> 01:50:07,519
Speaker 5: into like this being my job essentially, Like I was

1857
01:50:07,600 --> 01:50:10,280
Speaker 5: working in a completely different field. I had a catering

1858
01:50:10,320 --> 01:50:12,760
Speaker 5: and events company and then like one night I was

1859
01:50:13,360 --> 01:50:17,240
Speaker 5: doing till my parents went stoned, and like I just

1860
01:50:17,360 --> 01:50:18,240
Speaker 5: just like texting my.

1861
01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:20,240
Speaker 2: Sister and I was just like, ah, there should be

1862
01:50:20,400 --> 01:50:22,559
Speaker 2: like a Bechdel test for race.

1863
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:25,960
Speaker 5: And this was like twenty sixteen, I want to say,

1864
01:50:26,240 --> 01:50:30,040
Speaker 5: and I promised this wasn't really a thing before I

1865
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:31,200
Speaker 5: poined it.

1866
01:50:31,880 --> 01:50:33,960
Speaker 2: But my sister is very much like a movie note

1867
01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:34,200
Speaker 2: as well.

1868
01:50:34,320 --> 01:50:37,000
Speaker 5: She's a film director, and we were just texting about

1869
01:50:37,120 --> 01:50:40,280
Speaker 5: how like, well, what would a Bechdel test for race be?

1870
01:50:41,040 --> 01:50:43,519
Speaker 5: And it's like, you know, similar beats of like you

1871
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:45,960
Speaker 5: got to have two characters that aren't white, they got

1872
01:50:46,040 --> 01:50:48,599
Speaker 5: to talk to each other about something aside from what's

1873
01:50:48,640 --> 01:50:51,600
Speaker 5: going on with a white character. One of them is

1874
01:50:51,680 --> 01:50:56,000
Speaker 5: definitely not magic, kind of just like silly stuff, and

1875
01:50:56,080 --> 01:50:58,760
Speaker 5: it like really like took off and it was one

1876
01:50:58,800 --> 01:51:03,160
Speaker 5: of those very stre things were like that's the first

1877
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:05,560
Speaker 5: thing I ever wrote. And I remember like meeting with

1878
01:51:05,640 --> 01:51:08,439
Speaker 5: this editor and he was, you know, full the Guardian,

1879
01:51:08,479 --> 01:51:10,320
Speaker 5: which is like a big paper in the UK, and

1880
01:51:10,479 --> 01:51:12,240
Speaker 5: him being just like we're putting it on the cover.

1881
01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:15,120
Speaker 5: And I had this like completely false belief about like

1882
01:51:15,200 --> 01:51:18,000
Speaker 5: what being a journalist is. It's just like wait a second,

1883
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:20,400
Speaker 5: you have an idea and they're like three thousand words,

1884
01:51:20,439 --> 01:51:22,599
Speaker 5: it got two months see you and a bit kid.

1885
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:26,560
Speaker 5: But yeah, like that was that was my intro to

1886
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:30,000
Speaker 5: it all, and it was just also, I mean, from

1887
01:51:30,040 --> 01:51:33,719
Speaker 5: my perspective, like such a kind of interesting delve into

1888
01:51:35,080 --> 01:51:38,160
Speaker 5: white feminism in like a weird way, because I had

1889
01:51:38,840 --> 01:51:42,840
Speaker 5: a huge number of white female journalists within like the

1890
01:51:43,040 --> 01:51:45,439
Speaker 5: next couple of weeks just like take my work and

1891
01:51:45,560 --> 01:51:48,360
Speaker 5: like fully rip it off. And I didn't really understand

1892
01:51:48,400 --> 01:51:53,320
Speaker 5: what was going on at the time, and in retrospect it's.

1893
01:51:53,240 --> 01:51:54,200
Speaker 2: Like really messed up.

1894
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:57,000
Speaker 5: I had like actually like the editor of the paper

1895
01:51:57,080 --> 01:51:59,680
Speaker 5: that had published my work write or a talk to

1896
01:51:59,800 --> 01:52:03,680
Speaker 5: me saying that, like creativity is being wiped out as

1897
01:52:03,760 --> 01:52:05,080
Speaker 5: we demand diversity.

1898
01:52:06,080 --> 01:52:09,519
Speaker 2: I mean, like it's it really is. Like twenty sixteen

1899
01:52:09,760 --> 01:52:12,400
Speaker 2: was like the wild West of intersectionual.

1900
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:14,040
Speaker 1: Feminism for sure.

1901
01:52:14,680 --> 01:52:17,400
Speaker 5: And yeah, in a way, I kind of wish I

1902
01:52:17,479 --> 01:52:19,280
Speaker 5: knew what I knew now because I would have been

1903
01:52:19,320 --> 01:52:22,160
Speaker 5: able to stand up myself a bit better. But like, yeah,

1904
01:52:22,560 --> 01:52:24,600
Speaker 5: the sort of Bechdel test was kind of like my

1905
01:52:25,160 --> 01:52:29,439
Speaker 5: intro but also like a bit of a curse of

1906
01:52:31,000 --> 01:52:33,320
Speaker 5: like I've always been interested in like the way that

1907
01:52:33,439 --> 01:52:35,720
Speaker 5: we like framed these things in the way that we

1908
01:52:35,920 --> 01:52:41,800
Speaker 5: sort of address representation. But it bit me on the ass,

1909
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:46,599
Speaker 5: like I had every kind of of retort coming back

1910
01:52:46,680 --> 01:52:46,840
Speaker 5: to it.

1911
01:52:47,760 --> 01:52:49,640
Speaker 2: And sometimes I do think now that, like.

1912
01:52:51,439 --> 01:52:53,479
Speaker 5: As much as like that was kind of just like

1913
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:55,479
Speaker 5: something that I tried out, and like now this is

1914
01:52:55,600 --> 01:52:59,880
Speaker 5: like my full time job, which is awesome. It's tricky

1915
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:02,640
Speaker 5: because I think some of those retorts, some of that

1916
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:06,360
Speaker 5: ripping off wouldn't happen now, but maybe it would.

1917
01:53:06,600 --> 01:53:08,519
Speaker 2: I don't know, like if things got that much better

1918
01:53:08,600 --> 01:53:10,120
Speaker 2: since nineteen sixties.

1919
01:53:09,760 --> 01:53:12,599
Speaker 3: Psycho not a ton.

1920
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:18,040
Speaker 4: It's so absurdly frustrating to me that it's like your

1921
01:53:18,240 --> 01:53:22,480
Speaker 4: first of all that you were ripped off is fucking ridiculous.

1922
01:53:22,479 --> 01:53:23,360
Speaker 3: Oh I'm so sorry.

1923
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:26,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, check out the dates for the Latif test.

1924
01:53:26,320 --> 01:53:28,080
Speaker 5: And then two weeks later the New York Times were

1925
01:53:28,200 --> 01:53:29,800
Speaker 5: renaming it the Diverne test.

1926
01:53:31,320 --> 01:53:36,760
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, like yeah, that's horseshit. And then on top

1927
01:53:36,800 --> 01:53:40,560
Speaker 1: of that, I think that there is like a disingenuous

1928
01:53:40,560 --> 01:53:44,320
Speaker 1: way of framing tests like the Latif test, like the

1929
01:53:44,360 --> 01:53:47,679
Speaker 1: Bechdel test as a demand when it's just a way

1930
01:53:47,760 --> 01:53:48,960
Speaker 1: to have a discussion.

1931
01:53:49,680 --> 01:53:54,800
Speaker 4: And like I think it even today and by people

1932
01:53:54,880 --> 01:53:58,320
Speaker 4: that I'm generally like minded with I get frustrated when

1933
01:53:59,080 --> 01:54:04,240
Speaker 4: it's a framework to set a baseline and discuss moving forward.

1934
01:54:04,360 --> 01:54:07,360
Speaker 4: It's not like you're trying to I don't know, Like

1935
01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:11,240
Speaker 4: I feel like it's presented very disingenuously, very often as

1936
01:54:11,280 --> 01:54:14,760
Speaker 4: a way to not have an intersectional discussion.

1937
01:54:16,240 --> 01:54:19,160
Speaker 3: It's why I don't even pay attention if a movie

1938
01:54:19,240 --> 01:54:22,559
Speaker 3: passes the Bechdel test or not for this podcast, because

1939
01:54:23,200 --> 01:54:26,040
Speaker 3: it's so little of what we actually talk about, and

1940
01:54:26,280 --> 01:54:30,400
Speaker 3: so it's such again, it's a jumping off point, and

1941
01:54:30,520 --> 01:54:36,360
Speaker 3: we have left that jumping off point years ago, at

1942
01:54:36,480 --> 01:54:38,600
Speaker 3: least for the sake of this podcast. Like we are

1943
01:54:38,640 --> 01:54:41,600
Speaker 3: so far beyond that, and I understand how it still

1944
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:45,320
Speaker 3: can be a useful tool, but like in the context

1945
01:54:45,360 --> 01:54:47,840
Speaker 3: of this podcast, I'm just like, yeah, but what about

1946
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:51,760
Speaker 3: the other like one hundred minutes we spend talking about

1947
01:54:51,840 --> 01:54:53,680
Speaker 3: everything else about the movie?

1948
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:58,640
Speaker 5: So yeah, I mean Passon's aren't interesting. I mean, like

1949
01:54:58,760 --> 01:55:02,320
Speaker 5: they just like and like whether it's kind of even

1950
01:55:02,400 --> 01:55:05,080
Speaker 5: looking at something like Psycho. Would we be so worried

1951
01:55:05,200 --> 01:55:09,640
Speaker 5: about the transgender on performing representation Psycho if it was

1952
01:55:09,760 --> 01:55:13,040
Speaker 5: not part of like something larger and more insidious, it

1953
01:55:13,040 --> 01:55:15,000
Speaker 5: would just be like a quirk of the movie, but

1954
01:55:15,160 --> 01:55:18,960
Speaker 5: like everything has to be contextualized, and.

1955
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:22,560
Speaker 2: You know it's it's about there.

1956
01:55:24,720 --> 01:55:28,560
Speaker 3: Yes, where else can people check out your writing? Follow

1957
01:55:28,600 --> 01:55:30,560
Speaker 3: you on social media, et cetera.

1958
01:55:31,120 --> 01:55:36,200
Speaker 5: So I'm at Leila Underschool Latif on Twitter before at

1959
01:55:36,280 --> 01:55:43,680
Speaker 5: least before Yeah, I've got a host Truth of Movies,

1960
01:55:44,000 --> 01:55:46,920
Speaker 5: which is a podcast where we review like the week's

1961
01:55:47,120 --> 01:55:48,040
Speaker 5: latest releases.

1962
01:55:49,400 --> 01:55:51,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a contributing.

1963
01:55:50,920 --> 01:55:53,560
Speaker 5: Editor and Columbus for Total Film right for the White

1964
01:55:53,600 --> 01:55:57,160
Speaker 5: Lives Sit and Sound about to be the Indie Wire

1965
01:55:57,240 --> 01:55:59,760
Speaker 5: representative on the ground for the Venice.

1966
01:55:59,520 --> 01:56:02,320
Speaker 2: Film first should be fun. Yeah, oh my god, no

1967
01:56:02,520 --> 01:56:05,520
Speaker 2: celebrities or actors is gonna come. But like I'm hoping

1968
01:56:05,600 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 2: that they like put that budget into giving us free food.

1969
01:56:09,200 --> 01:56:09,840
Speaker 3: That'd be nice.

1970
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:12,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so excited to read your cover.

1971
01:56:13,520 --> 01:56:16,360
Speaker 3: And thank you so much for coming on the show.

1972
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:18,320
Speaker 3: Come back anytime, you so much.

1973
01:56:18,360 --> 01:56:20,200
Speaker 2: I'm making this show. I freak love this show.

1974
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:22,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, I love making it. Thanks for being a

1975
01:56:22,800 --> 01:56:26,040
Speaker 1: part of it. And yeah, come back anytime, bring back anything.

1976
01:56:26,320 --> 01:56:28,320
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to think, like what could be like

1977
01:56:28,400 --> 01:56:30,240
Speaker 2: a more hardcore thing than this.

1978
01:56:32,960 --> 01:56:37,560
Speaker 1: Undiscussable movies guests, I.

1979
01:56:37,600 --> 01:56:39,920
Speaker 3: Still feel like we've only just scratched the surface.

1980
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:46,920
Speaker 2: Like I'm like, God, yipes, let's not do that.

1981
01:56:47,280 --> 01:56:47,720
Speaker 1: Let's not.

1982
01:56:48,840 --> 01:56:52,280
Speaker 3: But hey, you can follow us at Bechdel Cast. You

1983
01:56:52,360 --> 01:56:57,160
Speaker 3: can subscribe to our Matreon at patreon dot com slash

1984
01:56:57,240 --> 01:57:00,280
Speaker 3: Bechtel Cast, where you get two bonus episodes every mon month,

1985
01:57:00,360 --> 01:57:04,640
Speaker 3: plus access to the back catalog, and it's all for

1986
01:57:04,880 --> 01:57:06,800
Speaker 3: five dollars a month.

1987
01:57:07,640 --> 01:57:10,440
Speaker 4: Yes, you can also get our merchover at teapublic dot

1988
01:57:10,520 --> 01:57:16,800
Speaker 4: com slash d Bechtel Cast. And with that, let's get

1989
01:57:17,040 --> 01:57:19,840
Speaker 4: pulled out of that scary bog at the end of

1990
01:57:19,920 --> 01:57:20,320
Speaker 4: the movie.

1991
01:57:20,880 --> 01:57:21,360
Speaker 3: Oh yeah

1992
01:57:24,000 --> 01:57:24,280
Speaker 5: Bye.