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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Ryntrall and Anderson's squirrel Chasing Hour

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Speaker 1: Hell Yeah, podcast in which the dogs Rintrall and Anderson

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Speaker 1: chase squirrels, or at least make noises at squirrels in

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Speaker 1: the background while we record a podcast called cool People

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Speaker 1: Who did Cool Stuff. It's all very texture.

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Speaker 2: It's called yea yeah, Sorry you introduce me yet.

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Speaker 1: Well that's Scharene Sharen.

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Speaker 3: Lanny Nis is here post him ethnically ambiguous host. It

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Speaker 3: could happen here, poet, filmmaker, friend icon.

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Speaker 2: I did it, but we're great. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Thank you first and foremost a friend first and foremost

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Speaker 3: a friend second, second, foremost. I forgot to mention it.

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Speaker 3: Mother of Bunny the cat, Mother of Bunny the cat.

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Speaker 1: I have a cat. Okay, so it's the how.

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Speaker 3: Does Bunny you feel about squirrels?

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Speaker 2: She loves to watch. Yeah, she'll she will be the

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Speaker 2: observer to the squirrel chasing listeners.

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Speaker 3: I want to brag about Margaret for a second listeners.

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Speaker 3: Before we started recording part one, Bunny was Bunny was

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Speaker 3: being bad, and so I called Bunny bad. Bunny and

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Speaker 3: Margaret knew that reference. And I just want to give

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Speaker 3: credit where credits due.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not only did she know, but she knew that

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Speaker 2: Bad Bunny was Porto Rican.

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Speaker 3: There was there was like.

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Speaker 1: There, Yeah, it's because Bad Bunny is done work with

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Speaker 1: Cardi B and Cardi B supports sex workers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a great way to know who Bad Bunny.

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Speaker 3: Is and and Bad Bunny is actual. So my parents

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Speaker 3: have a bunny that like an actual bunny rabbit that

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Speaker 3: this is so much information that the listeners don't need.

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Speaker 3: But there's a bunny that lives in their yard and

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Speaker 3: my parents leave out seeds and appropriate bunny and squirrel

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Speaker 3: litle and deer food for they live in the woods.

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Speaker 3: And I got them to name the bunny Benito, which

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Speaker 3: has been bunny's actual name, and so they but but

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Speaker 3: they've now changed it to bun Eto. And that's just

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Speaker 3: a little bit about why I am the way I am.

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Speaker 3: Honestly that.

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Speaker 2: Benito is great on its own for it bunny, honestly,

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Speaker 2: I know, and it ends in an osna. Bunnies are

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Speaker 2: the best. I love bunnies.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, that that has been unnecessary animal talk, but

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Speaker 3: also necessary animal talk.

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Speaker 2: Someone out there appreciates it. I know at least one person.

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Speaker 1: And everyone else has been pressing for fifteen seconds.

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Speaker 4: And that's fine, okay, Sorry, No, I'll just bring up

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Speaker 4: animals every like minute or so, so they'll just keep skipping,

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Speaker 4: you know what I mean, Like they'll talk about stuff

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Speaker 4: and then they're still talking about fucking cats.

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Speaker 1: And then we can think, Yeah, like the things that

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Speaker 1: we can form relationships with that aren't people that make

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Speaker 1: our lives enriched. How boring is what people will say

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Speaker 1: because they have no heart or soul or something. The

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Speaker 1: other voice you've heard is Sophie.

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Speaker 3: Oh Ship, it's me, mother of Anderson yea of podcasts,

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Speaker 3: podcast podcast, friend of Benito, the Bunny.

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Speaker 2: Friend of.

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Speaker 1: Our audio engineering is done by Ian Hi.

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Speaker 3: Ian I I the.

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Speaker 2: Father of an animal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Ian, I don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't think Ian has, but I feel free to

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Speaker 3: put in a fun animal fact here if you're bored,

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Speaker 3: and if you're not, and if you're not bored and

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Speaker 3: you don't feel like putting in a fun animal fact,

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Speaker 3: that's also okay.

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Speaker 2: But you don't have anything, you know? We love? Ian

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Speaker 2: is the point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, but you have to say hi, Ian before

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Speaker 1: we can continue. We've made a rule. Everyone has all right,

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Speaker 1: And our music is written for us by young woman.

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Speaker 1: And this is part two of a two part series

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Speaker 1: about hunger strikes, the last recourse of the desperate against

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Speaker 1: their oppressors. Where we last left our heroes, the Irish

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Speaker 1: Republican Army, who are a lot of people's not heroes,

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Speaker 1: but are in a situation where they also feel like

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Speaker 1: they have no recourse. They have just been told that

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Speaker 1: they were not to be treated as prisoners of war

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Speaker 1: anymore in Her Majesty's prison Maze, but instead as common

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Speaker 1: criminals fed to the minotaur, even though many of them

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Speaker 1: were getting picked up without charges, evidence or trial, which

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Speaker 1: is a fun way to find yourself a prisoner is

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Speaker 1: to not get accused of any crime.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The first inmate to protest this was a guy named

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Speaker 1: Kieran Nugent. And what led him to a life of

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Speaker 1: the IRA Well, maybe I'm not certain, but I think

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Speaker 1: there's like one part of his past that I can

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Speaker 1: think might have radicalized him. It's when he was fifteen

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Speaker 1: years old standing on the street with a friend when

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Speaker 1: a car stopped asked them for directions. When they started

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Speaker 1: to answer, someone in the car pulled out a submachine

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Speaker 1: gun and shot him eight times and killed his friend.

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Speaker 1: He survived getting shot eight times as a fifteen year old,

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Speaker 1: and I can't imagine why he went and joined the

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Speaker 1: IRA after that.

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Speaker 2: Was there not that there's ever a reason to do

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Speaker 2: any of that, but was there any motive?

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Speaker 1: Not that I'm aware of. I'm under the impression it

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Speaker 1: was literally like, let's just go kill those Catholic kids. Wow.

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Speaker 1: So when he was sixteen, he joined the IRA. He

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Speaker 1: spent five months in jail without being convicted of anything,

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Speaker 1: and then he was arrested again, I think when he

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Speaker 1: was seventeen, and this time he got a conviction. He

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Speaker 1: spent he served nine months. When he was eighteen, he

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Speaker 1: got arrested for hijacking a bus. He was the first

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Speaker 1: person sent to the Minotaur's maze after they decided to

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Speaker 1: stop treating paramilitaries like prisoners of war. And so he

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Speaker 1: showed up and they're like, all right, put on your

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Speaker 1: prison clothes, and he's like, I'm not a fucking criminal.

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Speaker 1: I'm a fucking freedom fighter. I'm not I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to do that. Or more specifically, he said that if

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Speaker 1: they wanted him to wear a uniform, they would have

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Speaker 1: to nail it to his back. He wore a blanket instead.

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Speaker 1: This gets called the blanket protest. Very direct namers at

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Speaker 1: this particular juncture.

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Speaker 2: Also too cute for my liking. The troubles was cute,

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Speaker 2: you know, blanket protest. I understand what it's doing. It's

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Speaker 2: very literal.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, terrible.

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Speaker 2: Things have cute names, and that makes me unsettled.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be like if Bunny wasn't your cat but

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Speaker 1: instead like a giant creature in the woods with red

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Speaker 1: eyes that sings the British national anthem.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, like that is terrify.

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Speaker 1: I know, what if there's like a monster in your

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Speaker 1: woods that just like say nationalist of Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 1: The second prisoner to join the blanket protest was a woman,

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Speaker 1: so of course she has left out of most of

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Speaker 1: the narratives. I like had the whole script written where

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Speaker 1: I was like, and then the second prisoner is and

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Speaker 1: as this other guy, and then later I was like, no,

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Speaker 1: this other person was the second person to join the protest.

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Speaker 1: She was in a different prison for women, and she

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Speaker 1: had a version of the best name ever. Her name

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Speaker 1: was mari Ed, which is Irish from Margaret, and she

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Speaker 1: was in prison for fourteen years for bombing a hotel

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Speaker 1: that was being used by British soldiers, and at trial

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Speaker 1: she refused to acknowledge the colonial court.

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Speaker 2: Well about us cross the board, check check check.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she fucking she goes hard. The third prisoner to

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Speaker 1: join the blanket protest was a man named Jackie McMullen.

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Speaker 1: He is usually marked as the second because why would

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Speaker 1: women matter, even though women have been active participants in

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Speaker 1: Irish struggles since literally forever.

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Speaker 2: But women are at people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, yeah, Jackie. This guy, Jackie had been arrested

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Speaker 1: twenty times as a teenager. He has a quote about it.

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Speaker 1: Every male aged thirteen to sixty five would have been arrested,

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Speaker 1: the vast majority for screening. Like basically they would just

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Speaker 1: arrest every Catholic they saw to see if they were

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Speaker 1: like opt no good or whatever. Right, So he've been

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Speaker 1: arrested twenty fucking times.

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Speaker 2: So we still don't really know how they know they're Catholic. Really,

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Speaker 2: maybe like.

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Speaker 1: The neighborhoods they're in or again someone knows, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know. The neighborhoods were increasingly I think since

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six, the neighborhoods were increasingly segregated, were actually

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Speaker 1: going to talk about some people who like actually had

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Speaker 1: grown up in very like mixed neighborhoods and were perfectly

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Speaker 1: fine and everything was happy until nineteen sixty six when

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Speaker 1: Protestants started like self segregating away from the Catholics and stuff.

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Speaker 1: So Jackie was a freedom fighter with the IRA. He

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Speaker 1: had a nickname. His nickname was Teapot. Love it because

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Speaker 1: one of his tops of one of his ears had

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Speaker 1: been shot off. Well he was, I know, they don't

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Speaker 1: fuck with the guy named Teapot who has a revolver

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Speaker 1: and is a missing part of his ear. When you

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Speaker 1: look up photos of all of these guys now, like

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Speaker 1: the ones who survive all of this, they're just like

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Speaker 1: they're just some old Irish guy. It's like real cute.

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Speaker 1: There's just like, oh there's anyone's yeah yeah. And so

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Speaker 1: Teapot had been caught with a revolver when he was twenty.

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Speaker 1: His trial was only forty minutes long. He also refused

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Speaker 1: to recognize the court. When he was in prison, his mother,

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Speaker 1: alongside other Irish women, changed herself to the railings outside

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Speaker 1: the Prime Minister's house in London. Wow, and by Christmas

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Speaker 1: that year, So a few months later it started in September,

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Speaker 1: there were forty prisoners wearing blankets, mostly IRA and the

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Speaker 1: Irish National Liberation Army.

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Speaker 2: Folks, we're not to acquire these blankets.

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Speaker 1: It's like what they have in prison. It's like the

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Speaker 1: it's the blanket that they're like, all.

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Speaker 2: Right at or airplane blanket.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, probably whatever. The whatever your fucking scratchy wool blanket

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Speaker 1: you have in prison.

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Speaker 2: Is okay, So they all have like they access to

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Speaker 2: get a blanket. I guess what I'm saying, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. By nineteen seventy eight, they escalated from the blanket

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Speaker 1: protest to the dirty protest, where prisoners refused to wash

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Speaker 1: and then started smearing their shit and menstrual blood on

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Speaker 1: the walls of their cells.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm not mad about it.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean whatever, whatever fucking works, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Or whatever. I mean, that's fucking disgusting. Yeah, if you're

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Speaker 2: not going to get shamed into action, maybe you'll get

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Speaker 2: disgusted into action.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, Like I don't want Yeah, it's probably just

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Speaker 1: to get the guards to be like, man, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to deal with this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: I don't get paid enough for this shit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They had five demands and their demands weren't freedom for Ireland,

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Speaker 1: like that's what they were fighting for as their cause, right,

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Speaker 1: But this sort of strike is usually about specific conditions,

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Speaker 1: and specifically they had five demands related to essentially prisoner

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Speaker 1: of war status. They demanded the right to not wear

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Speaker 1: a prison uniform, the right to not do prison work,

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Speaker 1: the right of free association with other prisoners and to

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Speaker 1: organize educational and recreational pursuits. The right to one visit,

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Speaker 1: one letter and one parcel per week, and full restoration

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Speaker 1: of remission lost through the protest. Basically, it's like, while

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Speaker 1: they were protesting, the state was like, well, this doesn't

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Speaker 1: count as your life time served because you're like not

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Speaker 1: being nice outside of prison. People start organizing for their support.

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Speaker 1: The kind of at the beginning of this people are like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that matters, but what really matters

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Speaker 1: is like the struggle, you know, and then people were like, actually, no,

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Speaker 1: those people in prison matter outside prison. By eighteenth not

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy nine nineteen seventy nine, the usage writing about

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Speaker 1: the eighteenth century nineteenth fuck whatever. Nineteen seventy nine, the

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Speaker 1: Northern Irish socialist politician Bernadette mccawsky is a working class

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Speaker 1: Republican woman, because republican means socialist at this point in

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Speaker 1: time in history, in this particular place, because political labels

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Speaker 1: change what they mean depending on context. She started to

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Speaker 1: fight for folks she'd been present at Bloody Sunday. Later

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty one, people break into her house trying

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Speaker 1: to assassinate her. She gets shot nine times in front

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Speaker 1: of her children, and she lives.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: She was like, all right, kid, you got shot eight times.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get not shot nine times and live. So

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Speaker 1: she's working to support the prisoners. This is before she

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Speaker 1: gets shot. In nineteen eighty the Dirty Strike goes Hunger Strike.

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Speaker 1: One hundred and forty eight prisoners in the men's prison volunteer,

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Speaker 1: but they pick seven of themselves total as a symbolic

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Speaker 1: thing about the number of folks who signed the nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixteen Declaration of the Republic. When kind of the Easter

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Speaker 1: Rising sort of kicks off what leads to the independence

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Speaker 1: the semi independence of Ireland. At the nearby women's prison,

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Speaker 1: three women join, including our girl Marriod, and later just

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Speaker 1: to end her saga. Unfortunately, in nineteen eighty eight, she's

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Speaker 1: killed during her arrest In Joe Bralter, she's trying with

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Speaker 1: some IRA friends to car bombs some British soldiers when

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Speaker 1: they get caught, and inquiries later show that she was

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Speaker 1: actually illegally shot because she had been trying to comply

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Speaker 1: with her arrest when they killed her. Wow, But for

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Speaker 1: now she's hunger striking.

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Speaker 2: Is it like something on top of like, it's not

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Speaker 2: replacing the dirty strike.

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Speaker 1: It's like in addition to they might have stopped smearing

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Speaker 1: their shit on their walls. I'm not sure. They probably

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Speaker 1: were pretty excited to take a shower.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's not great for the person

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Speaker 2: doing the dirty strike either, I'm sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And then the hunger strike is also it's just

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Speaker 1: a it's an escalation, you know. And and they win

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Speaker 1: this hunger strike in nineteen eighty. The strike lasts fifty

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Speaker 1: three days, but in the end the government blinks. They're

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Speaker 1: afraid of the backlash loget if they kill this prisoner.

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Speaker 1: Which is another thing that nonviolence pairs really well with

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Speaker 1: is violence m H. It was the threat of violence

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Speaker 1: that caused the British government to concede to this non

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Speaker 1: violent tactic. So the government say all right, fine, we'll

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Speaker 1: meet you five demands. But then the government being a government.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you knew this. Sometimes governments don't

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Speaker 1: hold their promises.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, are you serious?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know it. It changes the law, don't.

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Speaker 2: Follow the law. People don't care about morals or or anything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd think. I mean, obviously there's no system by

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Speaker 1: which people would get elected if they weren't honest.

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Speaker 2: And my god, I really thought, I really thought governments

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Speaker 2: could help us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this is probably the only time in place

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Speaker 1: where a government has done this. Okay, great, So they

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Speaker 1: start another hunger strike on March first, nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 1: and the IRA has a military command structure, right, the

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Speaker 1: officer commanding of the imprisoned IRA members is a guy

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Speaker 1: who's in prison and his name is Bobby Sands, and

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Speaker 1: he's like, well, I'm in charge, and so I'm going

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Speaker 1: to do the honorable thing, and I'm going to go first.

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Speaker 1: So he stops eating, and you know, they're like, we

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Speaker 1: are political prisoners. We will be treated as such. They

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Speaker 1: have the five demands, the same five demands they've ostensibly

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Speaker 1: already won, but have not. Bobby Sands, he grew up

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Speaker 1: in a mixed neighborhood Protestant Catholic neighborhood. But when he

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Speaker 1: was twelve in nineteen sixty six, all of his Protestant

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Speaker 1: friends stopped talking to him. I think their families basically

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Speaker 1: made them ice him out. As an adult, he tried

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Speaker 1: to just go be a guy, right, and he went

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Speaker 1: to get work as a coach builder, which is a

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Speaker 1: busmaker in American English. I had a double check.

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Speaker 2: He thought building coaches to like go to the NBA

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Speaker 2: or anything.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, okay, okay. Whereas I was thinking

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Speaker 1: it was like horse drawn carriages, they still had horse

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Speaker 1: drawn carriage.

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Speaker 2: You know, wait, what is it really say it against bus?

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Speaker 2: A bus?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he made buses bus where he tried to make buses,

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Speaker 1: but a bunch of guys wearing fucking like paramilitary Protestant

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Speaker 1: armbands who he worked with. The word that gets used.

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Speaker 1: The verb they used is harassed. They harassed him into quitting,

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Speaker 1: And by harassed, I mean they stuck a gun in

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Speaker 1: his face and told him to fuck off. And his

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Speaker 1: family and almost all the other Catholics in the family

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Speaker 1: were driven out of their homes at gunpoint. So he's

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Speaker 1: like all right Ira time he bombs a furniture store.

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Speaker 1: I have literally no idea why. I'm sure he had

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Speaker 1: a reason. And then he gets in a shootout with

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Speaker 1: the cops and he gets sentenced to the Minotaur's Maze.

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Speaker 1: And then March first, nineteen eighty one, he begins to

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Speaker 1: hunger strike. More prisoners join at staggered intervals. Basically the

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Speaker 1: idea is that if we join at different times, there's

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Speaker 1: always going to be different prisoners at different lengths of it,

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Speaker 1: basically because they know that they're doing this until they die.

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Speaker 2: Right, So so nothing really changed after the first one, right,

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Speaker 2: so what did how did it end?

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Speaker 4: Then?

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Speaker 2: Per se? Like what did what?

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Speaker 1: They were like, Oh, we're going to meet all your

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Speaker 1: demands and then they were like, oh right we win. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: then they just didn't okay.

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Speaker 2: Got it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And so by doing this as staggered intervals, they

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Speaker 1: have different people at different stages of it. So instead

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Speaker 1: of everyone dying all at once, people die at different intervals.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that we know so this is like

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Speaker 1: the famous hunger strike in Ireland. There's a bunch their

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Speaker 1: hunger strikes have been work going on in Ireland. I

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Speaker 1: didn't write them all down but since nineteen seventeen, Like

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Speaker 1: it is, as long as there's been people fighting for

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Speaker 1: an Ireland, it probably goes back way while, as we

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Speaker 1: talked about, it goes way the fuck back. While he

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Speaker 1: was two months into the hunger strike, Bobby Sands ran

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Speaker 1: for the British House of Commons basically like ran for

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Speaker 1: government in Northern Ireland and he won. He won, he

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Speaker 1: was in the prison. How is he able to run? Well,

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Speaker 1: they ended up passing the law after this that says

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Speaker 1: that you can't run for British Yeah, and so he

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Speaker 1: runs and he gets a seat in a House of Commons,

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Speaker 1: he's not allowed to sit it. It doesn't get him

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Speaker 1: out of prison, right, And he's also two months into

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Speaker 1: a hunger strike. So it's a protest vote basically. It's

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Speaker 1: like people are like, well, we're going to vote for

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Speaker 1: this dying guy because we support his cause and that's

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Speaker 1: how we will show it. Margaret Thatcher, who is trying

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Speaker 1: to give Margaret's a bad name, said, crime is crime.

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Speaker 1: There's no special concessions, like we're not gonna treat anyone

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Speaker 1: like prisoner as a war and this guy can't sit

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Speaker 1: even though he's been elected. Fuck democracy, you know, and

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Speaker 1: winning an election will starving yourself is a really good

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Speaker 1: way to get media attention for your hunger strike. It's

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Speaker 1: also a good way to get the UK to pass

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Speaker 1: a law specifically for make sure no one ever does

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Speaker 1: what you do again. And this is actually the reason

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Speaker 1: that they hadn't really thought about this before. I think

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Speaker 1: is that this is when the IRA came around to

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Speaker 1: electoralism as a strategy. Before that, they were absentationists, right,

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Speaker 1: they refused to vote, and then eventually they're like, all right, fine,

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Speaker 1: we'll just start fucking voting and nationalists because we actually

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Speaker 1: are the majority of people here.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: On his sixty sixth day of hunger striking, Bobby Sands,

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Speaker 1: who was twenty seven years old, died. No more than

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Speaker 1: one hundred thousand people came to his funeral. France, the

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Speaker 1: Margaret Thatcher was like fuck you, I don't care. She

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Speaker 1: wrote a whole bunch of stuff basically being like, he's

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Speaker 1: an evil terrorist trying to blackmail us with his life.

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Speaker 2: Such a bad margaret.

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Speaker 1: Yeah sorry, no, I mean.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry that you're Margaret. And yeah she has that name.

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Speaker 2: That's not fair.

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Speaker 1: I know, we got called a lot there. God give

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Speaker 1: her a different name, just to take it back for

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Speaker 1: the Margarets monster stature. Yeah, well, I'll think about it.

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Speaker 1: Sorry that thatchue Kanye's baddy. Apparently I've learned on the

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Speaker 1: show that baddye means good.

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Speaker 2: So no, baddie means like like Cardi B's a baddy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, no no.

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Speaker 3: I Ian was was like I've said. Ian texted me

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Speaker 3: after editing that episode, was like, I was like, I

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Speaker 3: was so confused, and then you explained it to Margaret

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Speaker 3: and then it mads it.

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Speaker 1: In my mind. Baddy is like the are we the

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Speaker 1: Baddy sketch where the Nazis have to admit that they're

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Speaker 1: that might be on the wrong side. No, anyway, no, anyway.

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Speaker 2: We've time has progressed since then. I suppose I am

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Speaker 2: now aware.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, do you know what else you should be aware of?

396
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Speaker 3: That it's a time for an ad break.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, if you want to be a batty, you

398
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 1: should wear clothing that is advertised. You know, actually, whether

399
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: or not these companies advertise clothing, you should try to

400
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 1: buy clothing from them. You should write them and say

401
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Speaker 1: make it happen, please sell me, not T shirts, not

402
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 1: branded stuff like I want them to make article full

403
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: articles of clothing, like I want to see their textile capacity.

404
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 2: Quilts.

405
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Speaker 1: Yeah, blankets, blankets you could wear a you could start

406
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Speaker 1: your own blanket protest by buying blankets from the gold

407
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Speaker 1: vendors who are going to come on to sell you that.

408
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Speaker 1: Here you go and we're back for lists enough. A

409
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Speaker 1: bunch of people who died after Bobby Sands. Francis Hughes

410
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Speaker 1: died next, then Raymond mccreash and Patsy O'Hara, who had

411
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Speaker 1: once been shot at the age of fourteen by a

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Speaker 1: British soldier. Joe McDonell, Martin Hurson, Kevin Lynch, Kieren Doe,

413
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Speaker 1: Thomas Mcgillwey and Michael Devine died. Ten people died. They

414
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Speaker 1: were all in all in their twenties, and the strike

415
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Speaker 1: ended in a sort of draw. Eventually, the other Hunger

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Speaker 1: strikers withdrew because a lot of their families were like, look,

417
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Speaker 1: even if you fall unconscious, if you fall unconscious, we're

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Speaker 1: going to allow medical intervention. So they withdrew and England

419
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Speaker 1: declared it a victory. But the strikers won four of

420
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Speaker 1: their demands during this they won everything but the right

421
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Speaker 1: to avoid work, and the other hunger strikers didn't want

422
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Speaker 1: to withdraw because they were like, no, Bobby Sands has

423
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Speaker 1: died for this. We can't turn our backs now.

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Speaker 2: You know.

425
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Speaker 1: But it basically their hands were forced because you can't

426
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Speaker 1: control what happens to you when you're unconscious. But they

427
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: actually won their fifth demands soon enough. They won it

428
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Speaker 1: through another means, the kind of sideways means. They went

429
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Speaker 1: it through a means that's called the Great Escape.

430
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Speaker 2: Who yes, tell me more.

431
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: Another thing that people in prison sometimes choose to do

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Speaker 1: is on the twenty twentieth, twenty fifth of September nineteen

433
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Speaker 1: eighty three, thirty eight IRA prisoners broke out of jail.

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Speaker 1: This is a maximum security prison. This is like considered like,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's Her Majesty's fucking maze, right.

436
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: How do they do it?

437
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 4: Do we know?

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Speaker 1: How they do? We do?

439
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 2: They didn't break original.

440
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, they wounded twenty guards in the process. Hell yeah,

441
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 1: they inadvertently killed one who died of a heart attack.

442
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,919
Speaker 1: To be fair, they'd also stabbed the guy. No, I know,

443
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: I know, to be fair, they'd also stabbed the guy.

444
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: But later a coroner's report was like, actually the heart

445
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: attack was unrelated to the stabbings, and so like someone

446
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: who got caught during all of this actually had their

447
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: charges lessened because they hadn't they had killed him, the

448
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: heart attack did. Yeah, six handguns had been smuggled into

449
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: the prison, and so like a cell block or whatever

450
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: takes the guard's prisoner, some of them were shot and

451
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 1: stabbed as necessary, like people who like tried to run

452
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 1: to set the alarm and stuff and stuff like that.

453
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: The escapies got out of the cell block and they

454
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: hijacked a truck. They're still inside the prison guard right,

455
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 1: And then they took the truck over to the gatehouse.

456
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: They took over the gatehouse, taking over guards there, and

457
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: then they tried to drive out, but the exit was

458
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: blocked by cars, so they climbed over the fence and

459
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: they made it free. And this was the largest prison

460
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: break in British history. And I will say Britain if

461
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: you don't want to take that, l just admit that

462
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: it was Ireland and not Britain. And then it wasn't

463
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: the large jail break in British history.

464
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 2: Well that's an easy out, you really.

465
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I found the solution. About half of the men

466
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: stayed free, some rejoined active duty, and others moved to

467
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: Ireland or the US. Basically like they got back to

468
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: IRA headquarters and the IRA is like, look, you can

469
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: either come back to active duty or we will buy

470
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: you like tickets and get you whatever you need to

471
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: move to the US or Ireland, and about it was

472
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: about half and half what people chose to do. A

473
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: lot of the people who moved to Ireland or the

474
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: US later got arrested, They got caught, and they had

475
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: they were facing an extradition to but then a lot

476
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: of them successfully fought that extradition, both in the US

477
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: and Ireland. There was a lot of places where like,

478
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: now we're not gonna extradite your political prisoners are so

479
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: obviously political prisoners. And two of the escapees were never

480
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: heard from again. But the heroes of this escape was

481
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: that there was a rear guard. When they took all

482
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: of the guard's hostage in the cell block, they needed

483
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: someone to stay behind to keep the guards from putting

484
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: up the calling the alarm to give everyone time to

485
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: get out. So a couple people stayed there and kept

486
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: the guards hostage, and then once everyone had had enough

487
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: time to escape, they went back to their cells. Well,

488
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: they basically fell on the proverbial grenade.

489
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

490
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: And the thing that happened is after this escape, the

491
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: work camps at Her Majesty's Prison Mays were shut down

492
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: because like prisoners were no longer like trusted to work. Right,

493
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: So the strikers won their fifth demand.

494
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 2: That's great, that's great to hear. That's yeah.

495
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: Don't give us all five of our demands. We're going

496
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 1: to stab and shoot people, don't you do.

497
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's what happened when non violence turns.

498
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: Violent, yeah, which is when you don't let it be nonviolent.

499
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

500
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: And just to briefly wrap up the Irish situation with it,

501
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, shin Fane, which is the socialist

502
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: political party that grew out of the IRA They are

503
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: now the largest political party in Northern Ireland. The UK

504
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: slide into right wing politics and out of the EU

505
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: helped that happen, right, because Northern Irish people like, wait,

506
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: we don't want to leave the fucking EU. We'd rather

507
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: join Ireland and stay with the EU, you know. And

508
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: of course Star Trek has predicted an Irish unification of

509
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. So it's just around the corner. Yeah,

510
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: fingers crossed. Yeah, but now we're going to go twenty

511
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: six hundred miles from Ireland to another country that has

512
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: struggled for recognition and freedom because of some decision that

513
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: England made.

514
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: Fucking England.

515
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, God, the country of Palestine. To draw the connections,

516
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: Ireland is trying to recognize Palestine as a state. Both

517
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 1: of the lower houses have passed a motion to recognize Palestine,

518
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: but the government, I think that means an executive branch

519
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: or whoever makes the decisions after the lower houses. I

520
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: don't actually know enough about English Irish politics. They won't

521
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: go for it until it's formally acknowledged by the rest

522
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: of Europe. So they're ignoring what the majority of Irish

523
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: people want, which is to recognize Palestine. They are the

524
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: first EU country to condemn Israel's de facto annexation of

525
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 1: Palestinian land. And as we talked about, it's not because

526
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: Irish people are like inherently cooler, it's because they have

527
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: a lot in fucking common Yeah. Shin Faine, the IRA's

528
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: political party essentially, or the political party came out of

529
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: the IRA, wants to see the Israeli ambassador remove from

530
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: the Republic of Ireland, and John Boyne, the Foreign Affairs

531
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: speaker for the party, told Al Jazeero, once the time

532
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: has gone for words of condemnation, now is the time

533
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: to take decisive action against a lawbreaker that presides over

534
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: an apartheid system.

535
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: That's that's the most attractive thing I've ever heard an

536
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: Irish person say. I love Ireland.

537
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it.

538
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 2: It's also just like I don't know, I think more.

539
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: I don't think enough people know that, like know just

540
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: how much Ireland like it's an advocate for Palestine. I

541
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: think the majority of people don't realize like this very

542
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: Caucasian place. Yeah, that's like known for other things, is

543
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: also pretty fucking badass and like the biggest advocate advocate

544
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 2: for like people that don't have a voice.

545
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually that's pretty cool.

546
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 2: So if you're Irish out.

547
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: There, Yeah, And it's like particularly funny because like Irish

548
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: American is like one of the primary white identities that

549
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: Americans cling to, but the way that Irish Americans cling

550
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: to it is in this weird right wing way. And

551
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: I've talked about this before, but there's nothing more depressing

552
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: than watching listening to Ira songs on YouTube and seeing

553
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: all the comments from right wing US people being like,

554
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: that's right, Republicans, you're our guys, and then like all

555
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: the Irish people have going to be like, we're socialists.

556
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: That's what Irish, That's what Irish Republican means.

557
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: People who know the meaning of different words in different places.

558
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of words that have a lot of meanings

559
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: that are complicated. We're gonna talk about Zionism now. Strap

560
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: In Irish leftists used to have more sympathies for Zionism

561
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: before nineteen thirty seven because they had sympathies for a

562
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: stateless people. But they were not excited. When I say they,

563
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: I'm talking about like large groups and governments and stuff.

564
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say every individual Irish person is

565
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: good or bad, right, but they were not excited about

566
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: the partition and the creation of an ethno state. If

567
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: folks want to learn more about what's going on in Palestine,

568
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: we're going to talk a little bit more. But I

569
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: really recommend there's this podcast sharene that you might have

570
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: heard of that covers a lot about what's going on

571
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: in Palestine. It's called it Could Happen Here. And if

572
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: people look up any episodes that Sharine has done. It

573
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: is one of the best sources that I will It's

574
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: where I get a lot of information.

575
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: Don't give you too much credit. There are a lot

576
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: of people doing good stuff talking about Palestine, but I

577
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 2: do try to give people the bare minimum of what

578
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: they should know because no one else is talking about it,

579
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: so I gotta do it. But thank you for that

580
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: shout out. I wasn't sure where you were going with that,

581
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: to be honest.

582
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: No, No, it's I mean, well, I don't know. I

583
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: feel like when I came up into politics, I feel

584
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: like talking about what was going on Palestine was like everywhere,

585
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: and I feel like that's not as much the case anymore.

586
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: And I have complicated ideas about what the reasons for

587
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: that might be. Yeah, but it's a shame.

588
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I mean people, not people. But like

589
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 2: the media, this big word like makes it so that

590
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: it's too complicated to talk about for the majority of people. Right,

591
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: like what you said about earlier, Like it's not about

592
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: religion for the processing, Like, it's not just about religion

593
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: for for the Irish and English. It's the same thing.

594
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: It's not this like ancient religious conflict that it's like unsolvable.

595
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: It's actually much more simple than that, and much more

596
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: like violent and evil than this complicated. I don't know

597
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: it just it's it's all a bunch of words tossed around,

598
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: making making people confuse. But yeah, I think a power struck.

599
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: Knowing more about Palestine is like, even if something doesn't

600
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: affect you, I think it is shameful if you don't

601
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: give a shit about people suffering in another part of

602
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: the world. I don't think that's an excuse that I'm

603
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: willing to accept.

604
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: Though, and especially when our tax money is one of

605
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: the primary things that fuels exactly. So, I know more

606
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: about Jewish history than I know about Palestinian history, and

607
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: so some of what I'm going to talk about is

608
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: from this perspective, just literally to understand part of what

609
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: creates that or part of what's going into that. So

610
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: I want to talk about Zionism. I ran this past

611
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: one last night. I'm like running all this past one

612
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: of my anarchist Jewish friends about how to talk about

613
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: this stuff. In the twentieth century, most Jews lived in

614
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: the diaspora, which is the spread out community no longer

615
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: where it culturally originated from and without a specific homeland.

616
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: There's roughly three attitudes that were happening about how to

617
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: handle this anti Zionism, leftist Zionism, and right wing Zionism.

618
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: Anti Zionism, which was largely leftist, said basically, this culture

619
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: that we have built in the diaspora is also beautiful

620
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: and it is not to be abandoned, and we have

621
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: to fight for our rights here where we are here

622
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: being largely Eastern Europe in the east coast of the US,

623
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: with Warsaw and New York City as I believe the

624
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: two largest population centers for Jews. We talk a little

625
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: bit more about this relationship in the Warsaw Ghetto episode

626
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: with Miriam Who's my friend who I was wow? I

627
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: was trying to talk to about all of this. And

628
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: this anti Zionism was largely internationalist and therefore opposed to

629
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: anything like nationalism, and this tended to include the anarchists

630
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: and many of the communist Jews, which was a huge

631
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: percentage of the Jews in both Eastern Europe and New

632
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: York City. There's also some right wing or i guess

633
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: religiously conservative anti zionism from within Judaism. At this time,

634
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: which is basically the idea that Judaism is a spiritual

635
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: project and not a political one, and that for some people,

636
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: Jewish immigration to Palestine was actually a sin that contradicted

637
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: the will of God, having to do with more complicated

638
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 1: stuff that is above my head about like prophecy and such.

639
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: Then there's left wing Zionism, which is sometimes conflated with

640
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: or is the same thing then diagrammed with labor Zionism,

641
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: which is basically like, well, we should go back to

642
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: Palestine in mass but not necessarily. For some people it was,

643
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 1: and some people it wasn't. Let's set up a specific

644
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: separate state. They were split on that. It was also

645
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: very specifically, we don't want Western powers to give us

646
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: a state. We want to organize a socialist society of

647
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: kaboots communal farms and go from there. In the end,

648
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the labor Zionists did a lot of

649
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: the really bad shit, a lot of the early Israel

650
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: bad stuff, like the displacement of seven hundred thousand Palestinian

651
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: Arabs during the nineteen forty eight war.

652
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: The Nekva, the catastrophe is what.

653
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: It's yeah, that was largely perpetrated by left wing Zionists,

654
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: just to be upfront about that. Yeah, within labor Zionism

655
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 1: you also have what's called cultural Zionism, which Albert Einstein

656
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: considered himself a cultural Zionist, which supported the Jewish return

657
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: to the homeland, but only in the context of Jewish

658
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: Arab cooperation, and it was opposed to the creation of

659
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: a Jewish state. Now I'm quoting Einstein with quote borders

660
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: an army in a measure of temporal power. And a

661
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 1: lot of the Jewish anarchists who weren't anti Zionists fell

662
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: into this category where clearly anarchists don't usually advocate for

663
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: the creation of a state. They tended to present what

664
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: was called the bi national solution, which is a single

665
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: state with Arab and Jewish equality. Today, Israeli's anarchist movement

666
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: largely calls for the no state solution, which is just

667
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: sort of the like, let's get rid of all the governments.

668
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: We're anarchists. Also, a lot of these left of Zionists

669
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 1: show up to lay the groundwork right all the Zionists

670
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: talks and Jewish folks began moving to Palestine, only to realize, oh,

671
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: this would be really bad. The Communist in particular recognized

672
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: this in the nineteen twenties, several showed up ready to

673
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: form like socialist parties, and we're like, oh, it's actually

674
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: mostly Arabs living here. We like literally didn't know that

675
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: because we live in a very strange media sphere. In

676
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, it would actually be really shitty and

677
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: discriminatory if we set up a Jewish state, even a

678
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: communist one. And so those folks became anti Zionists and

679
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: worked alongside Arab workers to set up things like the

680
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: Palestinian Communist Party. Of course, communism had this wonderful thing

681
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: happened where Joseph Stalin came and killed all the people

682
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: doing good things within it. My dog doesn't approve of

683
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: Joseph Stalin. I'm shocked by this good boy.

684
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 2: And uh yeah, you've raised him well.

685
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: One of the guys behind this like conversion to anti

686
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: Zionism within leftist Sionism, his name was jose Burger Barzali.

687
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: He wound up caught in Stalin's purges and sent to Siberia. Right,

688
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: that's your reward for being a morally consistent communist in

689
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. Then there's right wing Zionism, right wing

690
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: zionem Is Zionism is We're going to go back and

691
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 1: get what's ours and fuck everyone else. During the Warsaw

692
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: Ghetto Uprising, all three factions were present. Is where I

693
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: know more about it from right the research I did

694
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: for that episode. But until the very end, the leftists

695
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't throw down with the right wing Zionists because they

696
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: fucking hated them, because they were fascists, and they were like,

697
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: the only thing that's different between you and the Nazis

698
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: is that the Nazis are currently in control. Obviously, the

699
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: Jews weren't the only folks who were pondering the impact

700
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: of large scale immigration to Palestine. The Arab people who

701
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 1: lived there at the time Palestine was eighty three percent Arab,

702
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: eleven percent Christian, and five percent Jewish around the turn

703
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: of the century. They were like, this might not go great,

704
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: and they were right by Arab, you mean most right.

705
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: I do.

706
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 1: Actually, now i'm realizing that that I like, I actually,

707
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: I'm actually curious. When I was doing this research, a

708
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: lot of things would specifically be like Arab and Jewish

709
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: as like the way to contrast things rather than Muslim

710
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: and I don't like that at all. Okay, that's really

711
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: good to know, and I'm.

712
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: I mean, people have different opinions on it. I just

713
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 2: think it furthers this. I mean, part of me does

714
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 2: appreciate it because it kind of equates both being Arab

715
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: and actually, no, that's all I want meant to say.

716
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 2: You know how like the word Jewish can be in

717
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 2: both cultural and religious. Yes, I think that's true for

718
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: a lot of religions. I think that's true for Christianity

719
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 2: and Islam, you know what I mean. Yeah, but I

720
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: think it gets overlooked. But it would be different if

721
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: they said Muslim and Jewish and they were equating it

722
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: that way. But I think their version of that to

723
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: say Arab. But that's assuming that the Christians weren't also Arab.

724
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: I would you know?

725
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: They were all Arab? In my there were just different

726
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: religions that all actually got along great before the fucking

727
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: British got involved.

728
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:01,959
Speaker 1: Yeah.

729
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 2: But but yeah, I think that's where people get confused

730
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 2: because before like the the mass like stealing of homes

731
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: and the catastrophe and all that stuff, there weren't a

732
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: lot of white European Jews in Palestine. You know, Like

733
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: I think that's when the racial stuff started changing. In

734
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 2: my opinion, I don't.

735
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: Know, no, no, that that's incredibly useful context. As I

736
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: was reading it, I was like I went back and

737
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: forth about like how I was going to try and

738
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: present the stuff, and I just didn't know, you know,

739
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: And so I really appreciate that.

740
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: No, of course. And I also think it's like some

741
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: like a lot of Arabs are white passing, So I

742
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: think it's kind of confusing to even like differentiate it sometimes.

743
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: But there is a huge difference like in my opinion

744
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: of Arab versus like a like a white European X,

745
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 2: Y and Z.

746
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, but.

747
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, all the Arab states or countries rather like Syria, Lebanon, Palestine,

748
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: all the religions co mingled so seamlessly and beautifully, like

749
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: in Syria even when I was growing up there, like

750
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: like when I was when I would visit as a

751
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: teenager or like a young adult or like kid or

752
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 2: whatever the shit, Like since I was like two, my

753
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: grandpa would like go on a daily walks. He would

754
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: go pray at the mestig, grab some bread from the

755
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 2: Jewish baker, grab some what is so from the Christian guy.

756
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 2: No one fucking gives a shit, you know, until it's

757
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: become this land grab and like literal genocide. Like it

758
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 2: didn't have to go that way, is what I'm trying

759
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: to say.

760
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that that makes sense to me and attracts

761
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: with the bit I've read about it, and I'm kind

762
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: of curious. I'm under the impression that some of the

763
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: left left Zionists were like, we just want to go

764
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: participate in the existing like happy everyone gets along. Mm hmmm,

765
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,280
Speaker 1: Palestine thing, and obviously the larger portion of them created

766
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: a state, and you know, I.

767
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 2: Don't think it actually is a thing. I think the

768
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: way it started, the fact that you've exiled and murdered

769
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 2: and masacred people, if that's how you're gonna start, there

770
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 2: is no peaceful cooperation after that, Like it's so totally

771
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: you know, like I think, I think it's kind of

772
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: like a pipe dream. Unfortunately, when people kind of go

773
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 2: that route, because even though they have good intentions, it

774
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 2: is really naive and low key stupid. Sorry, sorry, maybe

775
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: that's too harsh, but I just don't think it's reasonable

776
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: to be like, for example, oh, the Native Americans and

777
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: indigenous people and in the Pilgrims they're friends now, Like, no,

778
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: that's not how that works, you know, I don't know.

779
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: I think it's just as ridiculous as that. But sorry,

780
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: I can write about this forever and I apologize.

781
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: No, I mean there's a reason that had you is

782
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 1: that guessed on this episode? Yeah, you know, like I

783
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: in this case, I was game specifically about the like

784
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: before like the like like turn of the central that's

785
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: what you mean.

786
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, sorry, sorry, I got myself but angry.

787
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, whatever the intentions of the various wings of

788
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: its Jewish founders, what Israel became is a settler apartheid

789
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 1: state founded on this genocide and the Knakba.

790
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, okay, sorry, just to go back to

791
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: what you were saying, there is now that I know,

792
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 2: the time period or like the pre Israel thing you're

793
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 2: talking about. I don't think people realize that Christianity, Judaism,

794
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 2: and Islam are basically the same religion, just at different

795
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 2: time periods. Like Christianity is the continuation of Judaism, and

796
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 2: Islam is the continuation of both Judaism and Christianity. Like

797
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: it's just like extending the timeline. And that's why the

798
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 2: Land of Palestine and the dough month of Rock and

799
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: all of that. It's it's sacred. That space is sacred

800
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 2: to all of them. There's a reason for that because

801
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: they're all extremely similar and based on the same ideals

802
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 2: of like a one God, religion and all this stuff.

803
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 2: So I think there was a time when it was

804
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: completely just cultural and vibrant, and I'm sure there were problems,

805
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 2: like there are everywhere, but I think people don't realize

806
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: that now, and they still see Islam as being this

807
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: like different thing, and Judaism is different and Christianity is different,

808
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: when really they're all the fucking same. Like Alma just

809
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 2: means God, Like that's that's just an Arabic word for God.

810
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 2: It's not a different God. It's the same fucking God.

811
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: And Judas and not Judas. Jesus and Moses are both

812
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: like really important prophets for Muslims, and I don't think

813
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: people know that. I don't know, so I apologize.

814
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I only learned that Jesus was an

815
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 1: important prophet to Islam as an adult, but I learned

816
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: almost nothing about Islam as a kid. And then yeah, like.

817
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: Mean, why should you, I don't I don't follow you.

818
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: For that I mean, yeah, like, I'm glad I've taken

819
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: the time to learn as an adult, and I would

820
00:43:55,640 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 1: recommend that other people do too. Yeah, speaking of the

821
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: continuation of it, Shinead O'Connor, who died yesterday as we

822
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: record this, left the Catholic Church because it was a horrible,

823
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: monstrous thing that attacked her, but then still sow it

824
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: very hard to believe and wound up at the end

825
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: of her life converting to Islam. All right, Yeah, I'm

826
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: just sad about it. So, yeah, if you haven't been

827
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: keeping track what's going on and w actually before we

828
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 1: talk about hunger strikes in Palestine, we should talk about

829
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: stuff things. Here you go and we're back. We're gonna

830
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: talk about some Palestinian hunger strikes and we're gonna talk

831
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: about it because in the context of apartheid, in displacement

832
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 1: and just disproportionate retribution and just raw oppression, right, Palestinians

833
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: are kept in open air prisons and treated worse than

834
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 1: it is easy to imagine the troubles the Irish thing

835
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: that was bad, that was a bad time to live

836
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: in Ireland. My family in Ireland didn't like to talk

837
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: about them, and wish that they could just not talk

838
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: about politics. Civilians were killed, lots of civilians. Killing civilians

839
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: is a moral. Car bombs and crowded places is a moral.

840
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: It's bad. Many freedom fighters lose their legitimacy in my

841
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: eyes when they do shit like that. But we can

842
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: see why they did it, we can see like and

843
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: we can support an overall cause and some of their

844
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: actions without necessarily supporting all of the actions that all

845
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 1: individuals take, and without drawing a false moral equivalence between

846
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: the violence of a colonial authority state and the violence

847
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: of the people resisting it. As my irant, I had

848
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: the advantage I had to write my rent down.

849
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 2: No, that was very eloquent. I liked it. But yeah,

850
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 2: it's like a similar thing of like, what do you say,

851
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: like a nail bomb versus like rocks, It's literally the

852
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 2: same thing.

853
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 1: It's like it's yeah, I.

854
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 2: Mean Palestine is a little very clear or just because

855
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 2: like they don't have any kind of army versus the

856
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 2: most powerful army in the world. So that's like a

857
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 2: little bit silly to even try. But yeah, don't I

858
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 2: know what you mean?

859
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: No, totally, So, yeah, there's an order of magnitude difference

860
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: in the violence that is put upon a Palestinian people

861
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: and that they put back. While I was writing this script,

862
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: I saw footage of the occupation pouring cement into a

863
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: spring like a to cement it up so that people

864
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: couldn't grow food and have access to water, which is

865
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: actually a war crime, which doesn't matter, because yeah, power

866
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: is what matters to people.

867
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: This is okay, Sorry, my last little tangent, Like I

868
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: actually can't promise that I might do this again. What

869
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 2: really confounds me, I guess about a certain brand of

870
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 2: Zionism where it's about returning to the homeland and loving

871
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 2: the homeland and that's where the the beauty will be

872
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: and all everyone will be united. What I don't understand

873
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 2: is like, if you gave a shit about the land youuron,

874
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 2: you wouldn't actively destroy it. You wouldn't like, there's the

875
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: whole thing I did an episode about, or yeah, exactly,

876
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: like I had an episode about olive trees and Palestine

877
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 2: like a couple months ago, and literally there's a whole

878
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 2: system of like uprooting olive trees and destroying farms and

879
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: all of these things that really just make you realize

880
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: it's not about this beautiful notion of X, Y and Z.

881
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: It's literally about destroying something that's not yours and pretending

882
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 2: that it is after that. And I think that is

883
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 2: just like one of my biggest arguments in face of that,

884
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: like retort of like this is our beautiful place to live, Like, no,

885
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,479
Speaker 2: you're cementing springs and rooting out olive trees where they're

886
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: like meant to grow. That makes no sense to me.

887
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 2: So that's always really just like really bewildered me, to

888
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 2: be honest, I don't know what the defenses for that

889
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 2: when it comes to the land of Palestine. I don't know.

890
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 2: I don't know.

891
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: Power is a hell of a drug. Yeah, it's like

892
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: there's a reason that the one ring must be cast

893
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: into the fires of Mount doom.

894
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 3: Ah.

895
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: Wasn't sure I was going to get in a lot

896
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: of the rings reference in this episode, but I did.

897
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 2: It's impressive.

898
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: It's impressive. So a lot of Palestinian folks hunger strike,

899
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: specifically Palestinian prisoners, specifically Palestinian prisoners who are held Oh

900
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: it's going to be the name of it's in my script,

901
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 1: but I forget much like how the Irish were allowed

902
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: to be held without any charges or trial, and Israel

903
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: has decided that it is legal for them to hold

904
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: people on secret evidence that no one ever sees, and

905
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 1: hold people without charges and without trial just the same

906
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: the there's no rule of law, you know, there's no

907
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: due process of law.

908
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: And now it's on video everywhere, Like they just arrest

909
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 2: people on the street, like boys usually, yeah, like not

910
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: even a teenage boy. Just get sent to jail and

911
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 2: are there for years.

912
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: Yeah.

913
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

914
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: So in twenty seventeen, on Palestinian Prisoner's Day, which is

915
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: April seventeenth, fifteen hundred Palestinian political prisoners started a hunger

916
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,879
Speaker 1: strike to improve prison conditions, and they taking only salt water.

917
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: And you know what their demands were. It wasn't free Palestine,

918
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: although that is a valid and desirable thing, but it's

919
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: not the kind of thing you win with hunger strikes.

920
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: They didn't even have the five demands of our ira folks.

921
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: They wanted a public telephone so they could talk to

922
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 1: their families. They wanted bi monthly family visits. They wanted

923
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: to be able to take photos with their families. They

924
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: wanted air conditioning, not a famously cold placed Palestine. They

925
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: also wanted the end of imprisonment without trial. It was

926
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: called administrative detention, where people can be held on secret

927
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 1: evidence for years. It's still exists in Israel. Currently there's

928
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: more than a thousand Palestinians being held without charges or evidence.

929
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 1: Everyone knows Guantanamo Bay is bad right because it had

930
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: no due process of law. Guantanamo Bay currently holds thirty

931
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: one prisoners. Hunger strikes in Palestine have been going on

932
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: for decades. Here's some of them. In nineteen sixty nine,

933
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: prisoners struck for enough food and a repeal on the

934
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: ban of writing letters and no more being forced to

935
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: call the guards sir. Those were their demands. It was

936
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: broken by the strikers being thrown in solitary confinement, which

937
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: is of course very normal to an American audience, but

938
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,959
Speaker 1: it shouldn't because it is absolutely classified as torture under

939
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 1: that above mentioned useless international law. Nearby the same year,

940
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: some strikers won stationary like that is the level of

941
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: rights that they're fighting for. In nineteen seventy, some women

942
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: prisoners fought for let us have sanitary products that the

943
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: Red Cross is trying to give us. They had to

944
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: starve themselves in order to say, please, let the red

945
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: fucking Cross, give us some goddamn sanitary products.

946
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: I'm kind of ang sorry, I'm just kidding angry.

947
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: No, I'm getting angrier too. In nineteen seventy a political

948
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: prisoner named Abdul Kader abu Altham was murdered by guards.

949
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: He was hunger striking for stationary and for prisoners to

950
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: be able to get closed from their family. When guards

951
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: force fed him, they put a tube into his lungs

952
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,959
Speaker 1: instead of his stomach. He will not be the last

953
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: person killed by this negligence and or malice. And since

954
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: this is the only place I've ever read about this happening,

955
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: I think it's fucking malice. But I don't know.

956
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know how I feel.

957
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nineteen seventy six, they were striking for stationary and

958
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 1: to replace plastic mattresses with actual mattresses. The prison said, yes,

959
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: they stopped striking the prisoner. The prison was like, no,

960
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: just kidding, fuck you. In nineteen eighty yeah. In nineteen

961
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: eighty two, more prisoners, Rasim Halloway and Ali Jafari, were

962
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 1: murdered by force feeding, once again just into the lungs.

963
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: Their strike wins and the conditions are improved in nineteen

964
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: eighty four, a thirteen day strike by eight hundred prisoners

965
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: won ventilation, they won better food, radio, TV, and clothes

966
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,359
Speaker 1: is one of the more successful ones. And nineteen eighty seven,

967
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: three thousand prisoners go on strike for twenty days. They

968
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: don't win. And if you're a christ like.

969
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: Three three thousand prisoners, what one exists to you in

970
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 2: these persons? Two is not all of them, you know,

971
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: and three go on a hunger strike like that is

972
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: just you know.

973
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 1: That's actually the next part. The next thing I wrote

974
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: in my spae no no no, I wrote, Look, I'm

975
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: just going to say it. If your country of ten

976
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,720
Speaker 1: million people has three thousand political prisoners, that's too many

977
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 1: and you're doing something bad.

978
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah that yes, thank you, margaret. Yeah.

979
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: Or seven thousand prisoners went on strike in nineteen ninety two,

980
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: and which is I don't know if this is to

981
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: be fair or not. This is more than there are

982
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: currently Palestinian political prisoners. But seven thousand prisoners went on

983
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 1: strike in nineteen ninety two, and they want a decent amount.

984
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: They shut down an isolation unit, they stopped strip searches.

985
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 1: Prisoners were allowed to cook their own meals, and they

986
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: got more family visitation, but four years later in two thousand,

987
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: they're striking again for some of the same shit, like

988
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: let us have access to phones, stop putting people in solitary.

989
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: In two thousand and four, four thousand prisoners strike for

990
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: phones and shit like that again, not like cell phones

991
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 1: to hang out on the internet all day, but like, literally,

992
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: can we have a fucking payphone so we can talk

993
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: to our families the prisons. Instead of giving the four

994
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: thousand prisoners anything, they deny them books and newspapers and

995
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 1: cigarettes and salt and family visits. No salt in the desert.

996
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: There's more than that. There's more hunger strikes than that,

997
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 1: because they get colonial promises which are nothing. It's true

998
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: the US promises shit to indigenous people. It's true when

999
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 1: England promises shit to the Irish people, and it's true

1000
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: when Israel promises shit to the Palestinian people. Have you

1001
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: ever heard of Tristan Anderson. He's an American activist.

1002
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 2: Sounds familiar, but please tell me more.

1003
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: I knew him. I'm using the past tense only because

1004
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: I haven't talked to him in a long time, not

1005
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: because he's dead. He's an American activist, I haven't seen

1006
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: him in years. I haven't seen him since before what

1007
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: happens here. In two thousand and nine, he was working

1008
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: with the International Solidarity Movement in the West Bank and

1009
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: he was standing next to his Jewish partner when an

1010
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: Israeli soldier shot a baton round at his face, even

1011
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: though he was observing the protests at a distance. And

1012
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: this was a round intended to be fired from around

1013
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: four hundred meters at an arc and not very specifically,

1014
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: not designed to be shot at close range or directly

1015
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: at people. It was shot at sixty meters directly, and

1016
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: it shattered his skull. Part of his brain had to

1017
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: be removed, and he's been paralyzed and mentally disabled and

1018
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: in need of round the clock care ever since. The

1019
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 1: Israeli government didn't file any charges against the soldiers who

1020
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: shot him. His family sued the State of Israel. His partner,

1021
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: Gabby Silverman, came to support him and cared for him

1022
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 1: during the trial. From an article on this trial the

1023
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: civil Trial published by the IMMC quote. As soon as

1024
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: the court hearing ended, Silverman, who is Jewish, received a

1025
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: formal order that she must leave the State of Israel

1026
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: within this next seven days. The reasons stated on the

1027
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,959
Speaker 1: paperwork included insufficient proof that there was a lawsuit going

1028
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: on and insufficient proof that she was a Jew. Well,

1029
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 1: this isn't The Times of Israel had actually erased Silverman's

1030
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 1: jewishness before they had a headline quote pro Palestinian activists

1031
00:55:55,360 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: assault Jewish woman in Oakland because Gabby Silverman and other

1032
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: people through a rally for Tristan Right, and a Zionist

1033
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,919
Speaker 1: came to the rally for Silverman's maimed partner and wrote

1034
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: Zionist slogans on the ground in chalk. So Silverman and

1035
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,439
Speaker 1: others ran the Zionist out. So, according to the Times

1036
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 1: of Israel, the Zionist gets to be called a Jewish woman.

1037
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: But Silverman is just a pro Palestinian activist because Israel

1038
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: is a home for homeland for all Jews except for

1039
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 1: the ones who support Palestine.

1040
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 2: Also, just the just a harp on this like not

1041
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 2: enough proof thing. Literally, like nine people that are like, hey,

1042
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 2: I'm Jewish can go on birthright, Yeah you know what

1043
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 2: I mean. Like it's so fucking easy for a lot

1044
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 2: of like Jewish people in no matter if it's cultural

1045
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 2: or whatever, to go on fucking birthright. It's not even anyway.

1046
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 2: I mean, this is just clearly just yeah backwards and

1047
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 2: not what they say it is.

1048
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, no, totally like yeah, if she had

1049
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: shown it wanted to be like, hey, I anyway, whatever, Okay.

1050
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: A month after Tristan was shot, a thirty year old

1051
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: Palestinian man named Bessim Abu Rame was killed by a

1052
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: soldier who shot a tear gas canister into his chest

1053
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: at a short range. In just the first half of

1054
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: this year, Israel has killed one hundred and twelve Palestinians.

1055
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: Palestine only has five million people total. This is like

1056
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: if some foreign country killed seven four hundred Americans in

1057
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: the first half of this year.

1058
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 2: I appreciate you making that comparison, because year after year

1059
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 2: they kill hundreds of people and I don't know, the

1060
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 2: world just goes on obviously, Yeah, but I don't know.

1061
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 2: And the things you're mentioning, it's it's not like an

1062
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 2: isolated occurrence to like fire someone at close range or

1063
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 2: like yeah literally shoot like a sniper shooting a reporter

1064
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 2: in the head. Yeah, that has press tracket on or whatever.

1065
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 2: I think it's completely it's just vile. Yeah, it's vile

1066
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 2: and normalized And I always plug this movie, and even

1067
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 2: though it's been a while since it's come out, I

1068
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 2: think it's a good example of just like how just

1069
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 2: what's the word I'm looking for? Like vile is not

1070
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 2: the the like evil enough to describe it. But Gaza

1071
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 2: Fights for Freedom is a film by activist Abby Martin

1072
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 2: and it's shot by cinematographers in Gaza or just like

1073
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 2: people that have cameras in Gaza, and like they put

1074
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 2: the footas together and you see IDF soldiers do heinous

1075
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 2: things like like it's like they're playing a video game,

1076
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 2: Like they shoot at someone and they're like, oh, I

1077
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: got them, Like yeah, they're like cheering and their whatever,

1078
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 2: and they're they're children, Like it's a lot of them

1079
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 2: are like the majority Palestinians at least in Gaza are children. Yeah,

1080
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 2: Like it's they're like below the age of like eighteen

1081
00:58:56,680 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: or something. So as we're talking talking about the stuff

1082
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 2: and you're hearing like they fired at your dad at

1083
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 2: close range or whatever. These are not icoate ad incident

1084
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 2: of anything. They're just like so normalized and unpunished that

1085
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 2: they just continue to happen totally, and it it just

1086
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 2: makes me so furious because I don't know, I'm someone

1087
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 2: I have a really hard time reading about Middle Eastern

1088
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 2: news personally like it used to, like I just especially

1089
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 2: after like the Syrian civil I didn't want to call

1090
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 2: it a civil war. It's like a fucking massacre. But

1091
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:38,919
Speaker 2: it's like seeing photos of like children like that look

1092
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 2: like my cousins are like me. Not that they have

1093
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 2: to look like me, but it just like really fucked

1094
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 2: me up. Yeah, and it should fuck everyone up, is

1095
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 2: my thing. I would be fucked up just point blank

1096
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 2: with any kind like you know what I mean, Like

1097
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 2: it's not.

1098
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you weren't like, oh whatever. I don't care about

1099
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 1: the Irish people when I was telling the Irish part

1100
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: of the story, yeah, like yeah, it's humans.

1101
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 2: But I think similar to like I think the vast

1102
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 2: majority of the world is accustomed to seeing certain types

1103
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: of people be killed on camera or have violence done

1104
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 2: against them, or the ways bring them on their dead

1105
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 2: bodies on shore, whatever it is. There, there's just like

1106
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 2: people of color, like specifically I'm talking about like black

1107
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 2: Americans and like Arabs and like anyone else that's like

1108
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 2: marginalized and like darker skinned. We're just so used to

1109
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 2: seeing them suffer, and it makes me so mad because

1110
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 2: it's the way it's normalized is just so evil. I

1111
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:36,919
Speaker 2: don't know, there's there's no I don't have the vocabulary

1112
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 2: to actually explain just how angry I am. But I

1113
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know. I'm also say I'm gonna cry.

1114
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 1: No, I'm I agree.

1115
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, just makes me mad. Everything makes me mad. And

1116
01:00:53,720 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 2: Israel is the fucking just the stupidest excuse for or

1117
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 2: I don't know, any kind of quote unquote democracy like

1118
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 2: or whatever they want to call it. It's just like this,

1119
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 2: just like our police, like they're all held accountable for anything,

1120
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 2: and they're not gonna stop until someone does something, and

1121
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 2: they probably won't. And so it's just like you have

1122
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 2: these Palestinians that like literally are like you don't have

1123
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: PTSD is something that like, oh, it can happen to

1124
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 2: you sometimes if like you are taken out of the

1125
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 2: context that you gave you that PTSD. They did a

1126
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 2: study and I'm misquoting it probably, but like the vast

1127
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 2: majority of Palestinian children are stuck in the state of

1128
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 2: PTSD because they're just used to the terror and yeah

1129
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 2: and violence that they have always known. And will only

1130
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 2: probably ever know and in their lifetime. And that makes

1131
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 2: me really fucking upset, because yeah, because it just should

1132
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,440
Speaker 2: and whatever. Okay, I'm done. I'm really sorry.

1133
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: No, I literally why. I'm glad you're the guest.

1134
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 2: I'm not sweaty now me and I'm also sweaty because

1135
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 2: it's hot, that's the only reason. But I'm just angry

1136
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 2: and sweaty, and it's really easy for me to feel helpless.

1137
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 2: I think it's probably the same for a lot of people.

1138
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 2: It's like, well, what can we do? And I think

1139
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 2: like you talking about it is making a difference, Like

1140
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 2: me having episodes that I could happen here is helping

1141
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 2: people be aware just how not okay it is or

1142
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 2: just how the media has presented it to be in

1143
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 2: a different way. I think that is a great starting point.

1144
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 2: And with time, over these like decades, I guess, or

1145
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 2: even just like the past like ten years, it has

1146
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 2: become more acceptable to vocally support Palestine. It hasn't become

1147
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 2: like great, but it's become more acceptable to even like

1148
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 2: broach that subject when it comes to like celebrities and stuff.

1149
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 2: And I think that's a little baby step that makes

1150
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 2: me hopeful and we're so off topic now, I'm so sorry.

1151
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: I'm just mad. I mean, I think about, Okay, I

1152
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 1: think about how it was eight hundred or nine hundred

1153
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: years after the first time that England colonized Ireland, before

1154
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 1: Ireland won something like independence, and Ireland is still fighting

1155
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:18,440
Speaker 1: for independence, right, coming on a thousand years into colonization.

1156
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 1: And it gives me hope for the indigenous communities of

1157
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 1: North America who are also living in a settler state.

1158
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: The United States is a settler state. It gives me

1159
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 1: hope that decolonization is possible. And I think thinking about

1160
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 1: it's like they want to normalize stuff, and denormalizing it,

1161
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: I think is so important. And I think that what happens, yeah,

1162
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 1: what happens to the Palestinian people is normalized, and we

1163
01:03:55,680 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: need to stop that, you know, and like not to

1164
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 1: be like, oh, don't worry another eight hundred years. No, no, no,

1165
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 1: I know what you're saying, but like, but it is

1166
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: a it isn't.

1167
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 2: A sliver of hope. No, you're right, it's it's yeah.

1168
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 2: I think the last thing I'll say before you continue,

1169
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 2: and I will let you continue, I swear, but we

1170
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 2: talk about shame, right and how hunger strikes are supposed

1171
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 2: to will the captors or the the oppressors into feeling

1172
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 2: so shameful that they change what they're doing. I think,

1173
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 2: especially now with all the videos and cameras and iPhone

1174
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 2: footage and everything else that's accessible that like actually portray

1175
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 2: the IDF doing disgusting things, they don't have any shame.

1176
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 2: They're past that. I really think there are some are,

1177
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 2: So go ahead, sorry.

1178
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: I feel shame. No, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm totally interrupting you.

1179
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I was kind of just sorry to ramble.

1180
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 2: I think there's there're an example of a body that

1181
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 2: has held so has been not held accountable at all

1182
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 2: to the point where like shame is not even even

1183
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 2: crosses their mind. Does that make sense?

1184
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 1: No, totally, But and I think that it's like it's

1185
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: less that the person will feel shame and more that

1186
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: they will be shamed, right, yes, yeah. And actually, to

1187
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 1: bring it back to the last example, the last hunger

1188
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: striker I'm gona talk about is actually the reason I

1189
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: did this whole fucking Okay, yeah, week's episode, and it's

1190
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: going to come back to this. I apologize, No, no,

1191
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: I don't. There's a man named a Kadira Non and

1192
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 1: he was a militant Palestinian activist. He was born in

1193
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 1: the West Bank, where he owned a bakery and a

1194
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 1: produce store. In the early two thousands, he served as

1195
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 1: the spokesperson for a group called the Palestinian Islamic Jihad

1196
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 1: the PIJ. This is one of the most militant Palestinian

1197
01:05:52,920 --> 01:06:00,040
Speaker 1: liberal liberation organizations, and so he's conflated with them for

1198
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 1: some good reason and some other reasons we're going to

1199
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,479
Speaker 1: talk about that are not good. So I'll talk about

1200
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: them really quickly, and if you have more context on them,

1201
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: please inform me. But Palestinian Islamic Jahad is fighting not

1202
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: for a two state solution, but for the return of

1203
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 1: Palestine and the end of the State of Israel to

1204
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: how it was before nineteen forty eight. Quote one of

1205
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: their founders quote, I will never under any conditions except

1206
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: the existence of the State of Israel. I have no

1207
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: problem living with Jewish people. We have lived together in

1208
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 1: peace for centuries. However, the PIJ uses suicide bombs against

1209
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 1: civilians as part of their tactics to achieve that if

1210
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: there's an organization in Palestine that might earn the label terrorist.

1211
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 1: It is likely the PIJ. That is my impression from

1212
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: my reading of this. Kadir Adnan left the PIJ, at

1213
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 1: least according to his wife, and this is not contradicted

1214
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 1: successfully anywhere that I've seen. He left in two thousand

1215
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 1: and seven, so sixteen years ago. He was arrested again

1216
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 1: and again without charges or trial for his affiliation with

1217
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 1: the PIJ. One thing about arresting people without charges or evidence.

1218
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 1: It sure makes it hard to prove to the world

1219
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:11,120
Speaker 1: that your arrests are justified, since your whole thing is

1220
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 1: that you don't bother justifying it. So Israel's like, oh,

1221
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 1: he arrest him because with the PIJ, they do not

1222
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: present evidence that he was part of the PIJ, post

1223
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 1: his choosing to leave it around two thousand and seven.

1224
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 1: He was never charged with any attacks by Israel, and

1225
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:33,280
Speaker 1: he was a member of the Palestinian Reconciliation Committee. Israel

1226
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 1: never bothered trying to find out if he'd done anything illegal.

1227
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 1: They would just arrest him again and again. At the

1228
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 1: start of twenty twenty three, he was on his twelfth

1229
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 1: arrest by Israel and his fifth hunger strike. His longest

1230
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 1: had been in twenty fifteen, when he was protesting his

1231
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:52,200
Speaker 1: evidence less arrest, and that time his strike won him

1232
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 1: his freedom and an incredible amount of international attention from

1233
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: human rights groups. And so this is that kind of

1234
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: like Israel didn't feel any shame about this. They just

1235
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,920
Speaker 1: wanted a fucking jail, right, But enough people were able

1236
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: to be like, what are you doing? And actually a

1237
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: lot of it. One of the articles I read basically

1238
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 1: was like Israel was afraid he'd become a Gandhi. Right,

1239
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: Israel was afraid he would become like the center of

1240
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:21,480
Speaker 1: a I mean, the center of a non violence resistant

1241
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 1: movement that gains power and infendance. Like that's what they

1242
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 1: were afraid of. And so he won his freedom, but

1243
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,679
Speaker 1: he continued to get arrested and continued to hunger strike

1244
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:34,599
Speaker 1: over and over again because they just like see him

1245
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: and they'd be like, aha, they're come here, and you're

1246
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 1: fucking under arrest, you know. In February of this year,

1247
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 1: he was picked up again. He al most immediately started

1248
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 1: a hunger strike. He went without food for eighty seven days,

1249
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 1: and on May second, twenty twenty three, he died. He

1250
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:51,800
Speaker 1: was forty five years old and he was a father

1251
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 1: of nine. His wife Ronda agh Non, I pronounced that wrong.

1252
01:08:57,040 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Ronda Non begged military not to launch any

1253
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 1: attacks in his name that would go against his spirit

1254
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 1: of non violent struggle. His death was met with a

1255
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:10,759
Speaker 1: general strike in Palestine, again nice reminiscent of what happened

1256
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 1: during Bloody Sunday in Ireland as well. It was also

1257
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 1: met by munitions fired towards Israel. I believe it was

1258
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: like two rocket strikes and a mortar strike. This wounded

1259
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 1: three construction workers. Those rocket attacks, which were not nice,

1260
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: killed no one, and they were met with fighter jets

1261
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 1: bombing Gaza, killing thirteen people. And I think three wounded

1262
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:38,120
Speaker 1: for thirteen dead is about the ratio. To understand the

1263
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 1: scale of violence between these two organizations. Right, most Western media,

1264
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 1: like literally, until I got deeper into it, every single

1265
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:50,680
Speaker 1: article I read just referred to him as affiliated with

1266
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 1: the PIJ because he was the spokesperson for them sixteen

1267
01:09:55,400 --> 01:10:02,920
Speaker 1: years ago. And yeah, a reporter named Muhammad al Kik

1268
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: was held in twenty fifteen without trial or charges, and

1269
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 1: he hunger strike for ninety four days to gain his release.

1270
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 1: I think he lasted ninet four days because I think

1271
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:12,639
Speaker 1: he was saying glucose water. I had this moment where

1272
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, what, I've never read any anyway,

1273
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:18,559
Speaker 1: only to be arrested once more in twenty seventeen. He

1274
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 1: is alive right now, he's survived. He was accused of

1275
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,600
Speaker 1: working for Hamas, which not trying to specifically go to

1276
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 1: bat for Hamas. They're just a political party. Yeah, they

1277
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 1: were the majority. They were in charge for a long time.

1278
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 1: I think they're not currently in charge. I think Fatah's

1279
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:40,080
Speaker 1: in charge right now. But so they accused him of

1280
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:45,920
Speaker 1: being affiliated with the majority party of Palestinian politics. They

1281
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 1: didn't bother bringing any evidence against him that he was

1282
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:53,960
Speaker 1: related to them. But Israel doesn't bother with legal proceedings,

1283
01:10:54,840 --> 01:11:00,120
Speaker 1: and the world is silent on Palestine. Western progressive are

1284
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 1: afraid it's too messy. Freedom fighters aren't always like cool

1285
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:06,879
Speaker 1: socialists in Palestine. Although if you want, there's an Israeli

1286
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:09,400
Speaker 1: group Anarchists against the Wall, that takes direct actions support

1287
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 1: a Palestinian struggle. So you just listen to the anarchists

1288
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 1: in that area, listen to what they have to say.

1289
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:18,599
Speaker 1: Just support Palestine being opposed to Israeli's apartheid state is

1290
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: not anti Semitism. The people who claim that it is

1291
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 1: are trying to cover crimes against humanity. You don't have

1292
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 1: to support the actions of every rebel in order to

1293
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 1: support the underlying cause. And although plenty of people use

1294
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 1: their support, plenty of people do use their support of

1295
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 1: Palestine to mask anti Semitism. That is an actual thing,

1296
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 1: that is an actual problem, and those people's anti semitism

1297
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 1: should be opposed. They are distinct things. You can be

1298
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:48,719
Speaker 1: against the IRA's love for car bombs and desire United Ireland.

1299
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 1: You can be against suicide bombings and support Palestinian independence.

1300
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 1: It's not that hard to be ethically consistent. Oppression is bad.

1301
01:11:56,880 --> 01:12:01,720
Speaker 1: Settler states are generally bad. Targeting civilians bad. There you go, right,

1302
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:04,720
Speaker 1: People whose backs are against the wall will look for

1303
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:07,879
Speaker 1: whatever weapons are available. Sometimes those weapons are hunger strikes.

1304
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 1: Sometimes people starve to death on the king's threshold, not

1305
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 1: to change the king's mind, but to curse his memory.

1306
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 1: And please don't go watering down this tactic by like

1307
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:22,400
Speaker 1: deciding your hunger striking for the end of capitalism or something.

1308
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:26,799
Speaker 1: Hunger strikes are specific tools used by people in specific situations. Thanks,

1309
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 1: that's my end rant.

1310
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 2: That was worded really well. I appreciate that.

1311
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:33,679
Speaker 1: Thanks.

1312
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I was thinking about, well, you

1313
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 2: don't need anything for a hunger strike, I think is

1314
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 2: what is important to remember. Like when a prisoner has

1315
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 2: no other recourse and literally nothing else to protest with

1316
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 2: but their body, that's when that comes in. I think,

1317
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:59,680
Speaker 2: because like this is my last attempt to I don't know.

1318
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 2: I think it's actually a really scary, sad thing to

1319
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:08,639
Speaker 2: have to come to that point, and that just shows

1320
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 2: you how how much that cause is important and necessary.

1321
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 3: You know what.

1322
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 2: I mean that I could push someone to that place,

1323
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 2: and I think it's it's it's what you said was

1324
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:24,679
Speaker 2: really important about you don't have to support every rebel

1325
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 2: to support the underlying cause. I think it's really important

1326
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 2: to remember. I think remembering that anti Zionism is not

1327
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 2: anti Semitism. It's really important to remember. And yeah, I

1328
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 2: don't know, this was a I hope this was ago.

1329
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:46,320
Speaker 2: He's an episode minus my my tangents. But I think

1330
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:49,280
Speaker 2: all of my tangents are just me trying to to

1331
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:55,599
Speaker 2: relay that what's happening in Palestine is not okay. I

1332
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 2: personally don't even like to call it Israel. Maybe that

1333
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 2: is like a hot take. I don't know if I care.

1334
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:07,559
Speaker 2: It's Palestine, wilwas be Palestine, and I think no one

1335
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:10,680
Speaker 2: is not okay and making sure everyone else knows it's

1336
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:13,799
Speaker 2: not okay. I think it's the bare minimum that anyone

1337
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:18,960
Speaker 2: should do, and regardless of what you think, there should

1338
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 2: be no excuse or justification for I know this doesn't

1339
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:27,840
Speaker 2: mean anything, but like all the crimes against humanity and

1340
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 2: like literal ethnic cleansing and genocide and massacres that have

1341
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 2: and I don't think there's anything that can justify that,

1342
01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 2: and there shouldn't be in anyone's mind if there is,

1343
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:40,000
Speaker 2: that sounds like a you problem, examply yourself. I don't know,

1344
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 2: go to therapy, but you know what I mean. I

1345
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:45,160
Speaker 2: appreciate you doing this episode and having me on.

1346
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks, thanks for being on. I've wanted to talk

1347
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:53,600
Speaker 1: about some of these issues for a long time, and

1348
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:55,760
Speaker 1: I haven't. I mean, honestly, I've been nervous to it

1349
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 1: right because I'm like, because one, I want to do

1350
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 1: it right, and also because it's a thing that like,

1351
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember when I was first getting into politics,

1352
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 1: you know, as nineteen or something, and I believed what

1353
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:10,679
Speaker 1: I had been told which was, oh, it's messy, You're like, oh,

1354
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:14,640
Speaker 1: both sides, I don't know, you know, was like what

1355
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:17,559
Speaker 1: I had grown up with, and meeting people who were

1356
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 1: able to like sit me down and be like, it's

1357
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:24,439
Speaker 1: not a samey, samey. You know, there are things that

1358
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:27,559
Speaker 1: both sides are doing are bad and they don't compare,

1359
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: and comparing them serves a specific narrative, and I really

1360
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:34,280
Speaker 1: appreciate the people who took the time to talk to

1361
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:34,880
Speaker 1: me about that.

1362
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a depressor and the oppressed. At the end

1363
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:41,160
Speaker 2: of the day, there's nothing but those can never.

1364
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:44,799
Speaker 1: Be equated in my opinion. So yeah, but yeah, I think.

1365
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 2: Hopefully this was educational for people, and I appreciate that

1366
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 2: you want to talk about it. I mean, I understand

1367
01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:53,320
Speaker 2: that it's nerve wracking because it's it is for me

1368
01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:55,320
Speaker 2: too every time I talk about it. Not every time,

1369
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 2: but there's always backlash when I criticize I and as

1370
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 2: something particular or the state of Israel. Already think I

1371
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:03,120
Speaker 2: do have this bit I used to do, not recently

1372
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:05,479
Speaker 2: on Twitter, but I used to just like make fun

1373
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:07,400
Speaker 2: of the IDF because I would quote tweet them and

1374
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 2: just like make fun of them. And that was really

1375
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 2: fun for me. But I got that. I got yeah,

1376
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:16,879
Speaker 2: just like they have the dumbest, most like lying tweets

1377
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:20,839
Speaker 2: of like this person and this Palestinian kid is shaking

1378
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:24,240
Speaker 2: the hands of an IDF soldier and I'm like, that's no.

1379
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,320
Speaker 2: Uh so every once in a while I would do that.

1380
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,639
Speaker 2: But I actually don't have an end to the sentence.

1381
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 2: I don't even know how it started. But I appreciate you,

1382
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:37,400
Speaker 2: and I will stop talking now.

1383
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:39,720
Speaker 1: All right, well, but now I'm about to ask you

1384
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:40,160
Speaker 1: a question.

1385
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:41,679
Speaker 2: Oh no, okay, where.

1386
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:45,400
Speaker 1: Can people find you? Oh hear more of your hot

1387
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:47,679
Speaker 1: takes or podcast stuff?

1388
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 2: Maybe this will motivate me to go drag the IDF

1389
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 2: Twitter again. But my Twitter is a Shiro Hero sixty

1390
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:57,040
Speaker 2: sixty six and my Instagram is shiro Hero. Yeah, fuck

1391
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:00,559
Speaker 2: the IDF and fuck Israel and all the good stuff.

1392
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:04,880
Speaker 2: I think there are plenty of resources and videos in

1393
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 2: particular that you can watch if you do want to

1394
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 2: learn more about what the IDEF is doing, or like

1395
01:17:09,720 --> 01:17:15,440
Speaker 2: how exactly like like western like American and European settlers

1396
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:18,479
Speaker 2: literally just like take a Palestinian families home and that

1397
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:21,559
Speaker 2: they're just like from fucking New York or some shit

1398
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,120
Speaker 2: and they have the ability to do that versus like

1399
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:27,080
Speaker 2: I have palaestin your friends that their families literally cannot

1400
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 2: go back there. And I think as you learn more

1401
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 2: about Palestine, if you choose to which I encourage you

1402
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:37,320
Speaker 2: to do, you'll realize just how deep and it's insidious

1403
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:41,800
Speaker 2: it is. And maybe that'll make you angry enough like

1404
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 2: it does to me, to just like not shut up

1405
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:47,800
Speaker 2: about it. Uh. So that's where you can find me,

1406
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:50,920
Speaker 2: and I will be motivated now to go drag the IDF.

1407
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,120
Speaker 2: So stay tuned for that excellent.

1408
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 1: Uh. If you want to argue with me about my day,

1409
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 1: I'll be at the Anarchist Book Fair in Asheville, North Carolina,

1410
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:06,679
Speaker 1: and I won't engage because I don't want to argue

1411
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:09,519
Speaker 1: about it. I actually really dislike arguing about politics with

1412
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:12,639
Speaker 1: people because usually we don't change each other's minds. Yeah, yeah,

1413
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:17,360
Speaker 1: that makes sense, but it is From August eleventh, thirteenth,

1414
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 1: I want to say, you'd think i'd know. In Asheville,

1415
01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:26,040
Speaker 1: North Carolina, I will be presenting a lecture called a

1416
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:29,960
Speaker 1: Halfway Concise History of Anarchism. I will be playing as

1417
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 1: Nomadic war machine. If you want to hear my band

1418
01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:37,040
Speaker 1: Nomadic war Machine. It's Nomadicwarmachine dot bandcamp dot com. And

1419
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 1: if you want to hear these episodes where instead of

1420
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 1: cutting to ads, it's just weird, awkward ad transitions and

1421
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:47,559
Speaker 1: then us immediately coming back, it's like the best of

1422
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:52,799
Speaker 1: both worlds. It's Cooler Zone Media and you can subscribe

1423
01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:54,720
Speaker 1: to it on Apple Podcasts and eventually you'll be able

1424
01:18:54,720 --> 01:19:02,680
Speaker 1: to subscribe to it on Android. See you next week.

1425
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:06,200
Speaker 3: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1426
01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:09,360
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

1427
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:12,760
Speaker 3: visit our website Coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out

1428
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1429
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:17,080
Speaker 3: your podcasts.