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Speaker 1: Defense has tried to make Michael Cohne the accused is

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Speaker 1: it just doesn't matter whether Michael Cohne wanted to make

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Speaker 1: money or whether he's believable.

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Speaker 2: The document speaks.

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Speaker 1: For itself, and Hope Hicks, a loyalist to Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: said it was politically motivated.

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Speaker 2: So did David Peckerck. The case has been made.

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Speaker 3: This judge has allowed the jury to hear falsely that

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Speaker 3: there was there were campaign violations, and there were not.

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Speaker 3: And so I'm quite convinced that this jury thinks that

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Speaker 3: there was a verified and established campaign violation committed and

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Speaker 3: connected to Trump.

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Speaker 2: That's just not the case. I've been saying for a while.

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Speaker 4: Just from a media standpoint, MSNBC's got their view of

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Speaker 4: the trial. Fox has their view of the trial, and

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Speaker 4: I feel like the people on CNN, basically you get

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Speaker 4: a couple of different views that they don't seem to

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Speaker 4: be shading it one way or the other near as much.

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Speaker 4: But I don't know the point is of even taking

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Speaker 4: in any of these legal pundits because they're all over

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Speaker 4: the place, and of course you know there's an outcome

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Speaker 4: I want, so I tend to agree with the ones

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Speaker 4: that you know, talk about it the way I want

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Speaker 4: it to turn out. But there's a lot of really

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Speaker 4: experienced lawyers, former prosecutors, blah blah blah, that have one

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Speaker 4: hundred and eighty degree different opinions where we are on

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Speaker 4: this thing. Yeah, yeah, well, okay, And how honest are

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Speaker 4: they being?

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Speaker 2: I don't have any idea.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I would say several of them, including one we

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Speaker 5: just heard, is so transparently full of crap and so

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Speaker 5: clearly pandering that there need not be taken seriously. But

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Speaker 5: to discuss the chaos, especially yesterday in the Trump trial.

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Speaker 2: Great to welcome.

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Speaker 5: Back retired Superior Court judge Larry Goodman, former attorney elevating

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Speaker 5: the Supreme Court or the Superior Court in the eighties.

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Speaker 5: Retired after thirty one years, handled many many murder trials

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Speaker 5: in Alameda County in the Bay Area, among other things,

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Speaker 5: interestingly started the Cross Crossroads program to help rehab felons

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Speaker 5: and give them a second chance, which I think is

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Speaker 5: a fabulous and worthy endeavor.

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Speaker 2: Larry good to have you back.

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Speaker 6: How are you Thanks for having me. I'm doing great.

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Speaker 6: We're sitting here in Alameda on the back of our boat,

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Speaker 6: just taking in the morning sunshine.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Why so there was a guy on the stand yesterday,

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Speaker 4: this Costello guy who kept rolling his eyes with the

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Speaker 4: judge or saying ah geez after the judge would say

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Speaker 4: sustained or whatever, and at one point was trying to

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Speaker 4: stare the judge down. How do you have you ever

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Speaker 4: had that happen to you and how are you supposed

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Speaker 4: to handle it as a judge?

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Speaker 6: Well, it starts the way before that witness is about

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Speaker 6: controlling the courtroom. I mean I did cases where I

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Speaker 6: had people charged with murders sitting next to me on

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Speaker 6: the witness stand, and they weren't always agreeable to what

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Speaker 6: I was doing. But you don't just start getting mad

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Speaker 6: and start yelling back at the witness. There are ways

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Speaker 6: to do it, and sometimes it's better, I know, he

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Speaker 6: closed the courtroom and shoot on Costello for a little bit.

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Speaker 6: It's usually a lot more effective to stop the witness,

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Speaker 6: look at the jury, and then scold the witness while

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Speaker 6: you're looking at the jury, to let the jury know

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Speaker 6: that you really disapprove of what this witness is doing.

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Speaker 6: To get into an ego match with Costello by closing

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Speaker 6: the courtroom and yelling at each other, I don't think

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Speaker 6: accomplished as much.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, indeed, so Andy McCarthy suggested Andy McCarthy in the

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Speaker 5: National Review that the judge had been wildly inconsistent in

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Speaker 5: overruling or allowing objections to Costello's testimony, and that it

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Speaker 5: just wasn't even handed and it was frustrating to Costello,

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Speaker 5: who's an experienced attorney. How aware of you aware of

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Speaker 5: the testimony are you? And does that ring Trudy at all?

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Speaker 6: Yes, I mean I unfortunately, I'm one of these news junkies,

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Speaker 6: so I follow the stuff for you closely. And it's

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Speaker 6: almost like I think Trey Goudi described it as, there's

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Speaker 6: this different strike zone when the defense is asking questions

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Speaker 6: versus when the prosecution is asking questions. And I've never

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Speaker 6: heard of a judge normally there's a question that's a

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Speaker 6: yes or no question and the person starts to explain,

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Speaker 6: the response from the judge will be you have to

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Speaker 6: answer it yes or no, then you can explain your answer.

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Speaker 6: This judge said to answer it yes or no and

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Speaker 6: didn't let the witness explain his answer at all. So

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Speaker 6: that's just it's almost like a parallel universe. What's going

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Speaker 6: on in that court?

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Speaker 5: Last time you were on we asked you, you know

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Speaker 5: what percentage of judges shouldn't probably be judges, and whether

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Speaker 5: this guy was on the list. And my recollection is

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Speaker 5: is you're not impressed by Wan merchand.

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Speaker 6: I am less than impressed. Less than not impressed. I

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Speaker 6: guess it would be the appropriate way. I mean, as

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Speaker 6: rulings just they don't make any sense. The ruling he

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Speaker 6: made about the expert FEC witness that makes no sense.

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Speaker 6: You get he said, well, you have two experts. I

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Speaker 6: will confuse the jury. That's what witnesses do. That's what

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Speaker 6: experts men, and give an opinion. The jury decides which

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Speaker 6: one's believable. It's not up to him to limit what

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Speaker 6: the jury here is When there are competing points of

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Speaker 6: view about a particular point of law or a particular.

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Speaker 4: Fact, I guess it's a different philosophy. And I don't

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Speaker 4: know how many judges have the philosophy that this guy

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Speaker 4: might have, that his job as a judge is to

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Speaker 4: have a view of the world and try to push

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Speaker 4: court cases the direction of his view of the world

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Speaker 4: to make the world a better place, as opposed to

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Speaker 4: just applying the law in a dispassionate way is that

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Speaker 4: the way you're say in well.

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Speaker 6: Then he should run for Congress and not be a judge.

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Speaker 6: I mean, you're supposed to be on the bench and

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Speaker 6: you're you're supposed to let your call balls and strikes basically.

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Speaker 6: And I had trials where the outcome was anything but

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Speaker 6: you know, totally opposite of what I wanted to happen.

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Speaker 6: But it happened, and we just try to give people

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Speaker 6: a fair trial. He obviously has a bias. He's not

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Speaker 6: even trying to hide the bias. Maybe that's the way

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Speaker 6: it works in certain courts in New York, but it's

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Speaker 6: so obvious that it's it's troubling almost.

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Speaker 5: And I'm assuming you've talked to fellow judges, retired judges

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Speaker 5: about this case at least a little bit.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah, a couple of my friends. We stay

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Speaker 6: in touch. We don't, you know, just hey, what do

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Speaker 6: you think about this? And then it's I don't think

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Speaker 6: you'll find anybody that's really being honest. The universally won't

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Speaker 6: say this judge has done a really poor job of

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Speaker 6: presiding over this trial.

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Speaker 5: Retired Superior Court Judge Larry Goodman on the line. So

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Speaker 5: let's talk about some of the explosive developments of the

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Speaker 5: other day in which Michael Cohen allowed it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I stole like, what was it, jack, fifty thousand dollars

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Speaker 5: from the twenty five I think, yeah, from the Trump

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Speaker 5: organization while he was spreading money around various fixers and

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Speaker 5: hoods and porn stars and the rest of it.

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Speaker 2: What do you think the jury made of that, Larry.

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Speaker 6: Well, I mean, he admitted to a felony on the stand,

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Speaker 6: so you know, it goes to credibility. It's it's very

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Speaker 6: strange to have a witness confess to a crime that's

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Speaker 6: of a higher quality than the crime for which the

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Speaker 6: defendants on trial. You know, it's, Wow, you just admitted

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Speaker 6: stealing all this money, so we already know you're a liar,

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Speaker 6: and now we know you're a crook. So it should

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Speaker 6: it should affect the credibility of the way the jury

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Speaker 6: tests his testimony or reacts to his testimony.

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Speaker 4: I would think, I know, it's an old, tired question

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Speaker 4: of what judges wear under their robes, But as you

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Speaker 4: got later in your career, did you move away from

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Speaker 4: dress pants and closer to pajamas?

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Speaker 6: Pretty well, I never wore I think my first five years,

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Speaker 6: I wore tie in a regular dress shirt and from

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Speaker 6: then on it was Levi's and golf shirts.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's good enough. Just to justice deserves a non

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Speaker 5: sweaty neck per something. Larry Goodman, retired judges on the line, Larry,

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Speaker 5: I realize, Oh that's right.

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Speaker 2: I know what I want to ask.

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Speaker 5: So the prosecution has not yet made clear the underlying

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Speaker 5: crime that turns the paperwork errors or deliberate omissions into

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Speaker 5: a felony. Don't they have to say what crime he's

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Speaker 5: charged with at some point?

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Speaker 6: Well, they do, and they should have been made to

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Speaker 6: do that before they ever put on their first witness.

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Speaker 6: They certainly should have been required to do that through

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Speaker 6: an expert witness, to which then the defense could have

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Speaker 6: had their own expert witness. But now it looks like

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Speaker 6: they're not going to find out until closing argument. And

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Speaker 6: the interesting thing about a closing argument is the jury

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Speaker 6: is instructed that what did lawyers say during argument is

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Speaker 6: not evidence. So the definition of from somebody who's giving

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Speaker 6: an argument that they can't consider it is a factual statement.

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Speaker 4: Interesting, All right, go ahead, Jack, how often were you wrong?

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Speaker 4: Do you think about what direction you thought the jury

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Speaker 4: was gonna go since you all heard the same thing, probably.

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Speaker 6: You know, maybe less than five percent, And most of.

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Speaker 2: The time you had an idea how you thought the

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Speaker 2: jury was going to go.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And there was only a couple of cases where

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Speaker 6: the jury came back not guilty on a couple of

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Speaker 6: multiple homicide cases that the whole courtroom was just shocked.

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Speaker 6: One time it was because of jury misconduct and the

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Speaker 6: other time, but I think the jury was just scared

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Speaker 6: to death. They wanted to just get out of Oakland

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Speaker 6: without getting okay.

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Speaker 2: So well, then that's interesting.

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Speaker 4: Then, So practically all the time, since those are two

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Speaker 4: outlier situations, practically all the time you knew how the

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Speaker 4: jury was going to go. Why do I keep hearing

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Speaker 4: on cable news. There's no predicting a jury. You never

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Speaker 4: have any idea how a jury is going to react.

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Speaker 4: Those seemed to be in conflict.

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Speaker 6: Well, because where I was practicing or where I was

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Speaker 6: sitting as a judge, by the time we got to trial,

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Speaker 6: things have been patched out pretty well. Everybody kind of

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Speaker 6: knew what was going on. I mean, jurys did crazy things,

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Speaker 6: don't get me wrong. But most of the time, by

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Speaker 6: the time you go through a preliminary hearing. You go

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Speaker 6: through pre trial hearings, you kind of know where the

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Speaker 6: evidence is going to lie. Unless somebody does something crazy

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Speaker 6: during the trial, everybody kind of knows how it's going

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Speaker 6: to come out.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 5: So back to Jack's question, how surprised would you be

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Speaker 5: scale of one to ten if the jury came back

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Speaker 5: with a conviction of Trump on one or more of

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Speaker 5: the felon accounts.

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Speaker 6: Not surprised at all. Oh really, I mean it's because

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Speaker 6: the way the trial's gone. I mean again, I don't

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Speaker 6: know what this jury. I haven't seen the jury. I

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Speaker 6: don't know what they look like. I'm a little concerned

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Speaker 6: that they now have eight days to find the ways

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Speaker 6: to get in trouble. Between now when they come back

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Speaker 6: to hear arguments and instructions that game.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean by getting trouble?

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Speaker 6: They go back to work and their coworker says, hey,

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Speaker 6: did you hear about that? I understand you guys weren't

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Speaker 6: in the courtroom when that happened, or oh yeah. So

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Speaker 6: they've got all this time to go back to their

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Speaker 6: regular lives and have people interact with them, and even

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Speaker 6: if they try to adhere to the admonition, you're not

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Speaker 6: to discuss this case or let anybody discuss it with you.

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Speaker 6: It's pretty hard to live by those rules for eight

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Speaker 6: days when you're back to your normal life.

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Speaker 4: How about over Memorial Day weekend there's a little drink

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Speaker 4: y pooing folve perhaps.

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Speaker 5: Why do you think they're taking such a long break

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Speaker 5: before the closing arguments?

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Speaker 6: I have no idea. I mean it's unheard of. I mean, well,

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Speaker 6: even on death penalty cases, we wouldn't let the jury

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Speaker 6: wander around for eight days before we did closing arguments instructions.

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Speaker 6: That just makes And they're going to do instructions, I

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Speaker 6: guess this afternoon. So then what's the what's the hang up?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Okay, so this this seems to be like an untapped

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Speaker 4: scandal here because I didn't hear anybody explain why it

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Speaker 4: was going to be a week?

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Speaker 2: Want to get back in there?

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Speaker 5: Well, and I speaking as a several time juror. The

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Speaker 5: idea that you'd get your jury instructions and then go

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Speaker 5: home for a week before you come back, that's idiotic.

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Speaker 2: Those instructions are important.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, though they're No, they're not going to be instructed,

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Speaker 6: they're just going to hammer out the instruction. So I'm

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Speaker 6: my understanding is the judge likes have closing arguments, go

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Speaker 6: right into instructions and then start deliberations. And that's all

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Speaker 6: well and good, but you don't by the time you

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Speaker 6: get back next Tuesday, jeerors are going to have forgotten things.

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Speaker 6: They're not going to be in the same mindset, like

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Speaker 6: I said, They're going to go back to their regular

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Speaker 6: lives and maybe been infected by some piece of information

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Speaker 6: that they're not supposed to know about. Or they may

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Speaker 6: get curious and go google, you know, FBC laws or

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Speaker 6: someone who knows what they're gonna do.

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Speaker 2: So what a dumpster fire it really?

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Speaker 6: Is it? Jonathan Turley said it best when he said

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Speaker 6: it's like a parallel universe of the trial. It just

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Speaker 6: makes no sense in so many different different aspects. Wow.

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Speaker 5: Retired Superior Court Judge Larry Goodman, Larry, great to talk

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Speaker 5: to you, Thanks again for the insight and happy sailing.

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Speaker 6: Thanks till very much, Calculator, Bye bye, Armstrong and Getty