1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: I'm Arlene Hursson. We're back where with Bob Guccioni in 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: his town house in New York. Again. Thank you for 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: being on the show again. I know how busy you are. 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: Pressure the pressure is the vodka on? You mean the pleasure, God, 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: this pleasure. Okay, here's the thing. Bob Guccioni was a 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: charming dude and here he is practically charming the pants 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: off talk show host Arlene Herson in the eighties on 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: the Arlene Herson Show. I have to say, and to 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: see you success, to be here in this fabulous house, 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no doubt that your success. Arlene is 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: clearly a fan of Bob's to say the least, but 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: even she has to admit that Bob has as many 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: detractors as he does fans. And when this relatively light 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: conversation takes a turn towards his critics, Bob tense is up. 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,639 Speaker 1: You are worth, as we had mentioned earlier, over two 16 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollars. Penthouse is not the only publication. 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: You also have a form variations, the Girls of Penthouse, 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: Pentause Letters. But it all but that's a different kind 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: of magazine, omni different. Can you feel the defensiveness. Yet 20 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: there are other parts too, But there's a lot to 21 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: do with sex, with people's sexual problems. You know, you 22 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: show pictures of women in sexy poses. It's sex, sex sex, 23 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: that's really how you built your forty. But people have 24 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: said because of that, you've been called the king of sleeves. Now, 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: how do you react to something like Well, I just 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: I don't react to it really because I think people 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: who say things like that are very stupid, uninformed, because 28 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: there's nothing sleazy about sex. Healthy sex is the most 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: wonderful thing in the world. We wouldn't be here if 30 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: it wasn't from mothers and fathers appreciating the value of 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: healthy sex. So people who say things like that, it's 32 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: just stupid. Arlene's critiques here are the softest of softballs. 33 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: But you can tell even mentioning his critics rattles Bob's cage. Now, 34 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: everybody definition of pornography varies. What's your definition of put? Well, firstly, 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: when I say pornography, pornography is award with no legal contents. 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:12,119 Speaker 1: It's just a stupid argument. These magazines represent healthy sexuality, 37 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: that's what they say. After the fact, that's absolutely untrue. 38 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: This interview took place more than two decades after the 39 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: launch of Penhouse and more than a decade after the 40 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: launch of Viva magazine, and even still here in criticism 41 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: years later. It fires him up, so you can imagine 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: how bent out of shape Bob must have been. After 43 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: the launch of Viva set off a media firestorm. After 44 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: the first issue, reporters called Bob's Viva self conscious, old hat, stale, 45 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: and even sick. They said the sex in Viva was 46 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: very well unsexy. There's a particularly rough review in Time 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,839 Speaker 1: magazine that so incensed Bob. He addressed it in a 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: full page editor's letter that runs in Viva's January nineteen 49 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: seventy four issue. The letter is titled time off for 50 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: bad Behavior. Here's an excerpt. Whereas Time devoted one paragraph 51 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: to Viva's editorial content, they devoted five paragraphs to the 52 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: credibility content of its publisher. Time goes on to question 53 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: such disparate non secretos as whether or not the reader 54 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: could survive not the editorial content of the magazine, but 55 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: my own personal pretensions, my ability to judge and handle staff, 56 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: and my right to change pages weeks after the closing 57 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: deadline because Even though all the reviews are technically about Viva, 58 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: kind of more about Bob Guccioni himself. As Viva's editor 59 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: in chief. All roads, good or bad, but especially bad, 60 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: lead back to him. Bob was progressive in so many ways. 61 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: How he talks about healthy sex, and even the fact 62 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: that he started Viva makes him decades ahead of his time. 63 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: Bob's strong opinions got him far, They got him Penthouse, 64 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: and they earned him an empire. But Viva wasn't Penthouse. 65 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: It didn't fit his usual formula. He couldn't just throw 66 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: tits and ass and a few gonzo journalists at it 67 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: and call it a day. From the start, Viva played 68 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: by different rules, and the more Bob doubled down on 69 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: his vision, the more he tried to control it, the 70 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: more out of control it got. From crooked media and iHeartMedia. 71 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: I'm Jennifer Rommolini and this is stiffed. Episode two, time 72 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: off for bad behavior, Act one, awkward man ass. If 73 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: you pour over these early Bob Guccioni edited issues of Viva, 74 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: you're left with all sorts of question, things like why 75 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: so many boobs and so much bush? Who finds the 76 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: little hooker? Comic funny. But the biggest question you'll ask 77 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: if you read these early Bob Guccioni Viva magazines is 78 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: what kind of life leads a human man to believe 79 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: he should be in charge of a women's sex magazine. 80 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: Robert Charles Joseph Edward Sabbatini Guccioni was born December seventeenth, 81 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty, in Brooklyn into a big middle class Sicilian family. 82 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: You know, my father was an Italian American who grew 83 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: up with strong, strong Italian values. Here's his son, Bob Junior, 84 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: and what our Italian values founded on the mother, Respect 85 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: for the mother, respect for the matriarch. Later in life, 86 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: Bob Guccioni obviously loved women, but according to Bob Junior, 87 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: this comes from a genuine respect for women that was 88 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: instilled in him during his youth. My grandmother was a 89 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: very powerful woman. They had nothing, they grew up in 90 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: the depression, but she was powerful and you know, saw 91 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: beyond the horizon. And she also for danging to my 92 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: father as a you know, son of the universe, figured 93 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: he was destined for great things. But she instilled upon 94 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: him and in him a great respectful that was you know, 95 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: that was absolutely the foundation. It might be hard to believe, 96 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: but growing up GUCCIONI was not only a mama's boy, 97 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: but actually an altar boy too and true story. He 98 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: later studied for the priesthood briefly before instead marrying his 99 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: high school sweetheart, with whom he had his first kid. 100 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: Here's Bob and the Arlene Herson show again that eighteen 101 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: years old you were married for the first time. I 102 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: got married. Why I did everything very quickly, Okay, but 103 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: eighteen years old. I wanted a scene, feel and experience. 104 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: Everything was quickly as possible. That marriage ended quickly, and 105 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: after this Bob moved to Europe to be a classical painter. 106 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: With the story goes twenty four dollars in his pocket 107 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: and a handful of paintbrushes and newly single, Bob wasn't 108 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: single for long. Immediately married my second wife. I've been 109 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: married almost all my life. I married my second wife 110 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: practically the day that I divorced my first wife, so 111 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: I've always had a life companion. He has four more kids, 112 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: including Bob Junior. He supports the family by briefly managing 113 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: a chain of British laundromats and working as a cartoonist 114 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: for the London American. There's not enough money in painting 115 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: or cartooning or laundromats, so he sets his sights on 116 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: something bigger. You know. My thought it was a great painter, 117 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: and he grew up studying, you know, European painters, and 118 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: so he had this natural tendency to think, well, the 119 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: naked body, either way male or female. Art. With this 120 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: apparently innate interest in the naked body, it's not surprising 121 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: that Bob sets his sights on an industry which is suddenly, 122 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: in the sixties, extremely lucrative porn. And so in nineteen 123 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: sixty five Penthouse UK is born. Bob had about the 124 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: art and classiness even though he was a photographer. That's 125 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: Peter Block. Peter worked for Bob for nearly thirty years 126 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: as a copy editor at Viva and for longer as 127 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: the editor of Penthouse. Over those years, Peter heard many 128 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: many of Bob's stories, including the one about how Bob 129 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: first spotted a woman who would have a great deal 130 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: of influence over him, his third wife, slash business partner, 131 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 1: Kathy Keaton. Kathy was basically a stripper and with Bob 132 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: saw her. I don't know where and when he went 133 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 1: to her dressing room because he was acted to her. 134 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: She had a bunch of Financial Times or Wall Street 135 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: journals and things like that, because she was very smart, 136 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: and so he Again the official line was he realized 137 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: that she would be someone who would be very good 138 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: helping him sell advertising for his new magazine, and that's 139 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: how they got together. Kathy was a well paid exotic 140 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: dancer with no sales or publishing experience. I was very 141 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: impressed with her. I said, I want you to come 142 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: work on a magazine. And I said, well, I can't 143 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: hey you as much as you're making. And she says, well, 144 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: how much can you pay? I said fifteen pounds a 145 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: week and she said okay. Convincing Cathy to help him 146 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: sell ads for his new magazine may not have looked 147 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: to the outside world like the smartest business move. Cathy 148 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: was special and Bob knew it. Here's editor Peter Block again. Oh, 149 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: she was ambitious. She was very incredibly smart. She was 150 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: way ahead of her time. Hiring Kathy and giving her 151 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: a senior role shaping the company was one of Bob 152 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: Guccioni's first and most genius gut instincts, because like his 153 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: son told us earlier, Bob was actually kind of a genius. 154 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: He was also, like all of us, complicated, full of contradictions. 155 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: He was arrogant, full of male ego and hubris, but 156 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: also professionally generous and savvy, and he for sure had 157 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: an eye for talented people like him who also wanted 158 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: to push boundaries. I mean, here he is a guy 159 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: wearing you know, open shirts down to his waist and chains, 160 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: one of which might have had his own penis engraves 161 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: hunted and Kathie being in her you know, go go 162 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: boots and being an ex stripper. That's doctor Judy Curansky, 163 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: be of a sex columnist. But they were intelligent, you know, 164 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: they made they wanted to do something different in the world, 165 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: break all the taboos, and you know, go against society. 166 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: And that was his way of doing it because this 167 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: was the sexual revolution. Then he was way out there, 168 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: charging in front. You might recognize Doctor Judy's voice from 169 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: the nationally syndicated call in radio advice show Love Phones, 170 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: which he hosted from nineteen ninety two to nineteen ninety 171 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: eight before starting to write for Viva in the seventies. 172 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: Doctor Judy was a pioneering sex researcher a more serious academic. 173 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: Since I was a senior research scientist at Columbia at 174 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: the Psychiatric Institute, I was the protege of a number 175 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: of very senior psychiatrists who were approached by Masters and Johnson, 176 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: the grandfather and grandmother of sex therapy. So while I 177 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: was wearing the hat of studying psychiatric disorders, I was 178 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: also becoming this major known as the sex therapist. And 179 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: so I was approached to do a column for Viva. 180 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: Doctor Judy's on the Fence. At first, she'd never done 181 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: anything like this. It was a big choice. Since I 182 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: had such a reputation in the professional field, I had 183 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: to be concerned how would my colleagues perceive this. This 184 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: was a very sensitive time in the world that you 185 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: were either a proper, respected professional or you were part 186 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: of the sleazy pornographic world. But Bob sees something in 187 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: doctor Judy, and it maybe helps her see something in herself. 188 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: She takes the job. He struck me as he was 189 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: very intelligent. He was very forward thinking. He was highly creative, 190 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 1: and I appreciated that in him. And that's the thing 191 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: about Bob. He knows how to spot talent. But once 192 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: they join his team. He's not always great at playing 193 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: well with others, nor sharing his toys and Viva. At 194 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: this moment, it's Bob's favorite new toy and he seems 195 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: pretty obnoxious about it, but to be charitable. Like many 196 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: founders up to this point, Bob Guccioni's success had relied 197 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: heavily on betting on his own unyielding vision. Well, if 198 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: I backed myself ten out of ten times, I'm going 199 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: to win. And if I doubt myself ten out at 200 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: ten times, I'm definitely gonna lose. So even in the 201 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: case where he was wrong, and I think suspected at 202 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: the time that he was off center, he still had 203 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: this thing, well, if I backed myself ten times out 204 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: of ten, I will come out ahead. Not only did 205 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: Bob have confidence in his own abilities, but he had 206 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: confidence in his vision and creative perspective. For the time, 207 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 1: he was very progressive when it came to sex, sex 208 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: positivity and the fact that women had erotic inner lives. 209 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: He just maybe had a bit too much confidence when 210 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: it came to what those inner lives looked like. So 211 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: Bob Senior keeps backing himself controls most of Viva's editorial 212 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: and all of its images. Viva doesn't even get its 213 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: own cover shoots. Bob literally reuses outtakes from his penthouse shoots, 214 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: so the covers of this erotic women's magazine are well 215 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: topless penthouse pets with high hair and come hither looks 216 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: cropped from the shoulders up and inside the magazine, things 217 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: in Bob's early Viva aren't any less weird. There's an 218 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: adverse suction cup device called beauty Breast that's meant to 219 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: help increase a woman's bus size grow inches in just 220 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: fourteen days. Next to a Q and A with musical 221 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: theater director Bob Fosse, there's a wrinkled overtan man's ass. 222 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: Right next to a profile of actress and Bancroft. There's 223 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: a five page spread on I shit You not erotic 224 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: pocket watches, including one that's engraved with an image of 225 00:14:54,640 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: a couple engaging in the sex Act sixty nine. These 226 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: were all Bob's calls. Here's writer Annie Gottlieb, one of 227 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: Viva's first female calumnists. What women find sexy about men 228 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: was barely touched on in Viva. You know, men are 229 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: just so visual and women are much more multisensory about 230 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: what turns us on. Annie comes to Viva as a 231 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: twenty something feminist book critic. She's part of the young 232 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: New York intelligency of the time, writing for places like 233 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: The New York Times and The Village Voice. Annie is 234 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: one of a handful of young, ambitious women now working 235 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: at Viva. But did Bob rely on any of their 236 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: expertise to dictate what women wanted from a sexy women's magazine, No, 237 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: GUCCIONI kept sort of barging in like a bowl in 238 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: the china shop, and you know, and making it weird. 239 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: It was annoying, and it was also funny. Truth is, 240 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: if Bob had been open to feedback, women like Annie 241 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: may have offered ideas beyond awkward man ass in topless 242 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: penthouse pets. Here's Viva editor Robin Walliner. I don't think 243 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: he gave a moment's thought to what women wanted or needed, 244 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: and it wasn't just photos in Viva's editorial meetings. Bob's 245 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: the kind of boss who tells you how it's going 246 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: to be. He doesn't so much reject story ideas at 247 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: this point as not seemed to welcome them in the 248 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: first place. Now, Bob Guccioni is certainly not the first 249 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: nor last editor in chief to treat his magazine like 250 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: his own personal fiefdom. This behavior is practically in the 251 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: job description. As a result, Viva's off the mark in 252 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: big ways. But Bob's also wrong about smaller details that 253 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: have a big impact too. Here's Robin again the term feminist. 254 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: So we didn't use it in the magazine, but we 255 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: all were feminists. Yes, Bob and later Kathy hated the 256 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: word feminist, and they instruct the staff of their feminist 257 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: porn magazine not to use it. But like Robin said, 258 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: the Viva staffers are proud seventies feminists. They're buoyed by 259 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: the women's liberation movement, which is by nineteen seventy four 260 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: in full swing. They have a mission. And when these 261 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: young feminists find they can't walk through the front door 262 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: of the house of Guccioni, they go searching for a window. 263 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: Act two. Volva astray but make a feminist. So it's 264 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: not just Bob Guccioni. The Viva editors needed to work 265 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: around the environment they worked in. Could be off pudding 266 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: as well. Penhaus and Viva shared everything, copy editors and 267 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: art departments, and of course a coworking space. Here's a 268 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: Viva editor, Pat Lindon. There were these disgusting guys, disgustingly 269 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: slobby guys, and they lived there. Basically, they had actually 270 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: drilled holes in the wall and they were They would 271 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: smoke pot there at night and then they would blow 272 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: it out the hole so that it didn't smell it 273 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: the building, Pat and the entire viewa staff shared an 274 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: office with all of Guccioni's magazines, and in the seventies 275 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: that meant mainly Penthouse, but also Penthouse spinoffs like Forum 276 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: and Penthouse Letters. And they also shared office space with 277 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: a whole host of characters from Guccioni's family, who Bob's 278 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: senior famously employed to help run his empire. Bob Guccioni's 279 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: sister was in charge of merchandise, right and so on 280 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: her desk were a bunch of samples and there was 281 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: a blow up doll that was hanging on the walls. 282 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: It was a doll that men could have sexual intercourse 283 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: with and had came with the vagina and I guess 284 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: it came with some sort of cream or something. And 285 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: then there was an ash tray shaped like a volvo 286 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: so that men could stuff kill their cigars and that, 287 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: and Bob Guccioni's father had that same as straight down 288 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: in his office. Bob had hired his father, Anthony Guccioni, 289 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: then an elderly man, to be in charge of the 290 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: company's finances. He was built officially on the masthead a 291 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: secretary treasurer, and he had a rubber breast and you've 292 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: pushed the nipple that would summon his secretary. Come on, 293 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: it was a bizarre place. Here's Annie. I used to 294 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: have a terrible time getting paid. It would take six 295 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: weeks to get my check. And I remember Gay Bryant 296 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: saying to me, Anthony Guccioni doesn't like to sign checks. 297 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: And he of course had to sign the big checks 298 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: for the printer and the photographers, the color separations and 299 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: all the advertising and all that. He had to sign those. 300 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: So we took it out on the four hundred dollars people. 301 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: Bob Lay's out cash for big name male photographers and 302 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: even big name male writers like John Irving. But Viva's 303 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: few female writers and editors have to scrape by with less. 304 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: They have to fight to get paid. Still, for the 305 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: most part, they're just happy to be there, happy for 306 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: the work. Here's Betty Jane Raphael, who joined the Viva 307 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: staff as senior editor at the beginning of the magazine. 308 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: New York was not at its best everyone knows in 309 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 1: the seventies, but for young people in magazines it was 310 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: pretty exciting, I mean, at least for women. Viva is 311 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: Betty Jane's second job out of college. Before joining Viva, 312 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: she'd worked as an editor at McCall's, also in New 313 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: York City. And the world opened up in the sixties 314 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: because well, the pill came and so a lot of 315 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: us good girls didn't have to be so good anymore. 316 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: And we lived in the city, we didn't commute home, 317 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: and life was pretty exciting, I felt. Betty Jane's one 318 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: of only two female editors credited on these early issues 319 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: of Viva. Betty Jane and Viva's few female writers like 320 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: Annie are putting a little bit of the feminist spirit 321 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: they're experiencing outside of the office into the magazine. They're 322 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: finding ways to put their own stamp on it, even 323 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: if they do this mostly in secret. Because guess what 324 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: are the third issue of Viva. They found their window in. 325 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: It's a section of the magazine called Graffiti, which runs 326 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: over seven pages pages thirty three to forty each month. 327 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: It's a section devoted to art and music and film 328 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 1: and eventually whatever the hell the Viva editors want. It 329 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: was part of a sort of cultural inset that was 330 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: on non glossy paper, so everybody knew that was the 331 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: part you could skip if you were only interested in 332 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,959 Speaker 1: sexy pictures in fashion. You know, it was kind of 333 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: like brown paper, the kind you would wrap a sandwich in. Remember, 334 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: most of Bob's Viva is luxurious feeling. He's a snob 335 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: about production, only cares about the pages that are high gloss. 336 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,479 Speaker 1: You know. It had a very disposable look to it. 337 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: But within that setting, we had total freedom to write 338 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: whatever we wanted. You know, we were poorly paid and 339 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: no probably nobody read what we wrote, and that was 340 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: what set us free. And within this literal, brown paper 341 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: bag secret magazine. Within the magazine, the smart, progressive feminist 342 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,479 Speaker 1: vision for Viva begins to come to life. Annie's covering 343 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: the book world, highlighting feminist poets. She's writing about Tony Morrison, 344 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: Sula and Alice Walker's stories of Black Women in Love 345 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: and Trouble. Each month, the graffiti section leads with a 346 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: personal essay on things like sexual pleasure, the pitfalls of marriage, 347 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: and work life balance, and these essays are written by 348 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: influential writers and artists of the nineteen seventies. I am 349 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: not an ogre. I just have this unpleasant conflict, thus 350 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: writer and podcast host Ashley Ford. She's reading Loraino Grady, 351 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: the legendary black conceptual artist and culture critic. Oh Grady 352 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,479 Speaker 1: actually wrote in Viva's May nineteen seventy four graffiti section, 353 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: and it's an essay that honestly could be published today. 354 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: I want a loving relationship with a man built on 355 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: mutual respect and reciprocal give and take. But what I 356 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: really need is someone to make no demands on me 357 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: as a housewife. Not mind if I write until five 358 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: or six in the morning and still be there to 359 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: keep me company when I can no longer stand typing. 360 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: In other words, though I may want a husband, what 361 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: I need a wife. The graffiti section also included big 362 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: time writers like Nancy Friday, who wrote the best selling 363 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: sex fantasy's book My Secret Garden. Here's Nancy on Tom 364 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: Snyder's popular seventies late night talk show Tomorrow set it before, 365 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: and I'll say it again. Women have gone really socially 366 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: sexually with men just about as far as we can 367 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: go right now, and right now the time is from 368 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: men to really change. Nancy Friday went on to write 369 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: more than a half dozen books on women in sexuality. 370 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: She's widely considered an early sex positivity icon, an important 371 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: feminist figure in the sexual revolution in the world of media. 372 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: Even then she was a get. The fact that her 373 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: essay is relegated to Viva's brown paper bag inserts section 374 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: tells us a lot about who was actually calling Viva's 375 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: major shots, and it tells us a lot about how 376 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: much this middle aged male pornographer in chief had yet 377 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: to catch up to and adapt to the times. And 378 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: it also tells us a lot about the lengths to 379 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: which in these early days the women Viva fought to 380 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: execute their vision and work around him. Here's Betty Jane again. 381 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: We knew who we were working for, and we did 382 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: not let it strive from us. I would just go 383 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: after people I wanted to see in the maccine, and 384 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: it usually would be based on some book that was 385 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: coming out or recognition. We just did our stories or 386 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: articles and then had them put together with photo layouts 387 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: of soft porn, and by ignoring Bob's porn and landing 388 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: their own big name writers like Simone de Beauvois and 389 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: important up and comers like Nikki Giovanni, sometimes they managed 390 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 1: to pull their vision off. I guess we all felt 391 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: that we were like working against the tide and actually 392 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: kind of working under the radar, because I don't think 393 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: he ever read much of the magazine. And this this 394 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: was a shift because, with the exception of the graffiti pages, 395 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: Bob initially read most everything in Viva. It was a 396 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: big part of his job. And if Bob didn't read 397 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: the magazine anymore, what was he doing? Well? After months 398 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: of criticism and bad reviews pointed directly at him, he's 399 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: possibly rethinking the Viva formula after all, you know, the 400 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: thing to understand by my dad, because he was incredibly brilliant, 401 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: but he couldn't be a woman. He could beat many things, 402 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: but he couldn't be a woman, and therefore he couldn't 403 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: perceive how complex a woman's approach to six is. After 404 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: a few months, the criticism may have just become too 405 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: much for Bob, and he starts to lose interest in 406 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: his shiny new toy because in the issues following that 407 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: January nineteen seventy four editors letter at the beginning of 408 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: this episode, the one where Bob rails against Time Magazine 409 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: for criticizing his role as editor of Viva, Bob never 410 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: writes an editor's letter again, and in fact, by the 411 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: end of July of nineteen seventy four, there's an even 412 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: bigger shift in the magazine. Bob's name is no longer 413 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: on the masthead as editor. He's officially taken his editor 414 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: in chief ball and gone home. He never came. I 415 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: mean he would come into the office maybe once a month. 416 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: He was like a New York celebrity who never wanted 417 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: to leave the house. His father came into the office, 418 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: his sisters, children, lots of gucciono is in the office, 419 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: but not Bob. And the new editor, well, she's about 420 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: to push the magazine in a new direction and potentially 421 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: give Viva's readership what they actually want. What I do 422 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: remember was boxes of letters that would come in from 423 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: angry women who said show more. Cop Stiffed as an 424 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: original podcast from iHeartMedia and Crooked Media. It's produced by 425 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: Crooked Media. It's hosted and written by me Jennifer Romalini 426 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: and produced by Megan Donnas. Sidney Rath is our associate producer, 427 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: story editing by Mary Knoff, music sound design and engineering 428 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: by Hannes Brown. Our fact checker is Julia Paskin. Additional 429 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: production support from Nafula Cato and Inez Maza. Thanks to 430 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: Alex Peppadimus for reading the voice of Bob Guccioni and 431 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: to Ashley Ford for reading Loreno Grady from Crooked Media. 432 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Sarah Geismer, Katie Long, and Mary Knoff, 433 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: with special thanks to Alison Falzetta and Lyra Smith from iHeartMedia. 434 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Beth Anne Macaluso and Julia Weaver.