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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront the problems in their lives and

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Speaker 1: then give them actionable advice and have them report back

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Speaker 1: to let us know what happened when they did what

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Speaker 1: we suggested.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a young married couple wants to learn how

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Speaker 1: to stop their arguments from escalating into destructive screaming matches.

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Speaker 3: My sister moved in with us and there's been rules

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Speaker 3: that need to be set in place for the household.

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Speaker 3: We've had certain disagreements and it always ends with arguments

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Speaker 3: to where we don't even want to talk to each

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Speaker 3: other anymore.

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Speaker 2: First, a quick note, Deo Therapists is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 2: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's

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Speaker 2: not a substitute for professional health health care advice. Diagnosis

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Speaker 2: or treatment. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to

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Speaker 2: let iHeartMedia use it in part or in full, and

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Speaker 2: we may edit it for length and clarity. In the

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Speaker 2: sessions you'll hear. All names have been changed for the

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Speaker 2: privacy of our guests. Hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do

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Speaker 2: we have in our mailbooks today?

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Speaker 1: Today we have a letter from a woman who wants

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Speaker 1: to know how she and her fiance can learn to

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Speaker 1: not turn every discussion into a screaming match. And we're

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Speaker 1: actually going to have both of them on to talk

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Speaker 1: about that. And here's the letter. Dear Therapists. I am

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Speaker 1: in a ten year relationship with my now fiance, Finn.

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Speaker 1: We have grown up together and he's my best friend.

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Speaker 1: I absolutely love him. He is a police officer and

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Speaker 1: his line of work has trained him not to show emotions.

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Speaker 1: I work as a therapist. Great combination.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 1: Recently his sister moved in with us, and that has

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Speaker 1: really pushed us to argue about household rules. Sometimes I

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Speaker 1: feel so alone, and I've expressed this to him. He

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Speaker 1: is receptive, but I worry that the stressors we face

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Speaker 1: now are minimal compared to the ones that we may

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Speaker 1: face later. On down the line when we get married

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Speaker 1: and have children. We have gone through so much change

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Speaker 1: over the last ten years, but I feel like we

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Speaker 1: argue like our teenage version of ourselves. Sometimes we say

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Speaker 1: things that really hurt each other and we don't communicate well.

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Speaker 1: I really want us to fight better, because I know

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Speaker 1: we feel like we are both losing sometimes. I would

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Speaker 1: love your support in helping us to connect and identify

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Speaker 1: unhealthy communication patterns. We'd like to learn how to have

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Speaker 1: a discussion without turning it into a screaming match. Thank you, Grace.

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Speaker 2: Grace and Finn have been together since they were young,

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Speaker 2: and it sounds like they might have grown and evolved,

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Speaker 2: but their communication together has not. So they really do

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Speaker 2: need to learn very different habits than habits they've already

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Speaker 2: established over ten years. And I'm very glad we have

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Speaker 2: both of them here because it really does require two

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Speaker 2: to change your communication style.

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Speaker 1: And what I like too about this letter is that

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Speaker 1: she's not saying the problem is with my partner. A

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Speaker 1: lot of times we get these letters and people say,

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Speaker 1: my partner does this, How do I get them to change?

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Speaker 1: And what she's saying is we both do this, and

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Speaker 1: we both need to learn how to change. So let's

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Speaker 1: go meet them and see how we can help. You're

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Speaker 1: listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be

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Speaker 1: back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: So Hi Grace, Hi Finn.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 4: Yes, thank you so much for having us.

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Speaker 2: You're very welcome. We'd love to hear a little bit

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Speaker 2: about how you guys got together when, and just how

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Speaker 2: the relationship has been over the past ten years.

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Speaker 4: We started dating high school, so we've been together since

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Speaker 4: we were teenagers, and there's just been a lot that

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Speaker 4: has happened throughout the last ten years, like surviving like

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Speaker 4: long distance while I was in college. Finn is from

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Speaker 4: out of state and so he has family over there

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Speaker 4: in so just having to juggle like visiting them too.

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Speaker 4: We've had a lot of successes in our careers and

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Speaker 4: also like in our personal lives of getting a house

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Speaker 4: and getting engaged, and so I think it's been really good,

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Speaker 4: but there's also been like really difficult moments too.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about the difficult moments.

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Speaker 4: There's just a lot of things that happened growing up together,

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Speaker 4: just having to figure out how to be in a

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Speaker 4: relationship and like stay in one, but also being able

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Speaker 4: to find like our own identities and that now we

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Speaker 4: have a house and Finn's sister recently moved in, and

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Speaker 4: that's just been a little bit difficult because we haven't

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Speaker 4: lived together for a terribly long time. I think it's

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Speaker 4: been be.

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Speaker 3: A year to no, about two years now.

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Speaker 4: Two years, so eight of those years that we were

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Speaker 4: together we didn't live together. It's just been kind of

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Speaker 4: difficult navigating that different dynamic of having somebody else there.

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Speaker 2: You were tearing up when you talked about that You've

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Speaker 2: been through some hard things. Could you give us an

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Speaker 2: example of what some of those hard things were and

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Speaker 2: what makes you feel emotional when you think about them.

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Speaker 4: I think just when me and Finn were younger, I

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Speaker 4: was off in college and there was just a lot

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Speaker 4: of things that I did that I wasn't like super

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Speaker 4: proud of. Lying a lot there was just I think

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Speaker 4: a lot of pain cause because of that. And so

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Speaker 4: even though there had been a lot of really good

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Speaker 4: and beautiful moments, there's also been a lot of difficult

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Speaker 4: ones as well, including that period of time.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us what the lies were about and

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Speaker 1: how the two of you got through that.

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Speaker 3: Sure, we were young teenager and as most teenagers do,

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Speaker 3: we experiment with most commonly like marijuana, and I was

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Speaker 3: heavily against drinking alcohol, smoking, and some of the difficult

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Speaker 3: things that we went through were I guess Grace wanted

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Speaker 3: to experiment a little more with that, and when I

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Speaker 3: would ask her questions about it, she would lie to

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Speaker 3: me and say that she was home, when in reality

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Speaker 3: she was with friends smoking stuff like that that created

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Speaker 3: trust issues between us, and then when she went off

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Speaker 3: to college a couple hours away, I just feel like

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Speaker 3: that there were still trust issues, which created more issues

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Speaker 3: within our relationship, and it just made it difficult as

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Speaker 3: we got older.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because in your letter, Grace, you said that

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Speaker 1: the two of you don't know how to disagree without

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Speaker 1: something turning into a screaming match. And I think that

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Speaker 1: this is an example early on where instead of something

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Speaker 1: turning into a scream match, you disagreed about something and

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Speaker 1: you both kind of avoided it. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you about the fact that I want to

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Speaker 1: do something different, so I'm going to lie. So that

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Speaker 1: we don't have to have some kind of confrontation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that happened, and so sometimes does happen.

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Speaker 4: I've tried to really encourage Finn and even myself to

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Speaker 4: have really difficult conversations because avoiding them hasn't helped us.

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Speaker 4: But sometimes it's really difficult because when we get into arguments,

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm usually the one having to bring

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Speaker 4: them up, and sometimes I just get tired of it

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Speaker 4: because I like want Finn to bring up the things

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Speaker 4: that he is feeling and experiencing, but that doesn't always happen.

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Speaker 1: When these lies were happening, how did you deal with

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Speaker 1: the fact that the lies were discovered? And then how

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Speaker 1: did the two of you prepare that?

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Speaker 3: So as far as discovering it, I feel like I

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Speaker 3: would just ask a lot of questions and the answers

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Speaker 3: wouldn't add up to me. So I'd ask further questions

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Speaker 3: like where are you here, let me FaceTime you, and

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Speaker 3: I'd get a response It's like, well, I'm in my room,

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Speaker 3: I'm falling asleep, it's dark, and I'd say, well, turn

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Speaker 3: on the light. It was just questions like that that

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Speaker 3: would give me the answers to tell me that I

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Speaker 3: was being live to. In reference to how we got

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Speaker 3: through it, I feel like maybe communication. I remember talking

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Speaker 3: about it, apologies, tears as I'm being told it's not

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Speaker 3: going to happen again.

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Speaker 1: Did you believe that that it wouldn't happen again?

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Speaker 3: I did. This was towards the end of high school. Yes,

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Speaker 3: and then when she went to college, we were about

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Speaker 3: a two and a half hour drive away from each other.

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Speaker 3: And what I'm saying is incidents like those just didn't

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Speaker 3: make it easier being in a long distance relationship.

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Speaker 2: Grace mentioned that she brings up difficult conversation and she

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Speaker 2: wishes you would do more of that. In terms of

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Speaker 2: the trust and repairing that rupture from late high school

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Speaker 2: and the colleges. Do you feel that's repaired on your end,

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Speaker 2: and if not, do you bring it up as something

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Speaker 2: to discuss and figure out.

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Speaker 3: I don't bring that topic up, per se. I feel

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Speaker 3: like we do trust each other. I feel like that

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Speaker 3: was our high school selves that made those mistakes, and

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Speaker 3: I know that people grow and mature, they become different

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Speaker 3: people as they get older. We haven't had any recent

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Speaker 3: issues when it comes to lying, So I feel like,

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Speaker 3: in reference to me trusting Grace. That's gotten a lot better.

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Speaker 1: You know, the patterns get set up really early in

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Speaker 1: a relationship, and the two of you got together at

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Speaker 1: a certain time in life when you're still figuring out

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Speaker 1: who you are, you're still developing emotionally. You haven't had

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Speaker 1: a lot of experience in relationships because you guys were

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Speaker 1: a primary relationship very early on. And so I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about not only the lies, but this question of what

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Speaker 1: do you do when you fundamentally disagree about something? How

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Speaker 1: do you tolerate difference in the relationship. You've Finn said

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Speaker 1: I'm not okay with smoking and drinking, and Grace thought,

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Speaker 1: this is the time that I want to experiment with that.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure over the course of the last ten

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Speaker 1: years you've had other fundamental disagreements about things, because two

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Speaker 1: different people will have different ideas at times. So how

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Speaker 1: did the two of you deal with those times when

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Speaker 1: you have different ideas about things? You're both looking at

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Speaker 1: each other and smiling.

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Speaker 2: And maybe you can tell us about one more recent

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Speaker 2: example of a disagreement and how you've dealt well or

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Speaker 2: not with it.

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Speaker 3: Right. I feel like, for example, when Grace mentioned that

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Speaker 3: my sister moved in with us, and there's been rules

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Speaker 3: that need to be set in place for the household.

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Speaker 3: We've had certain disagreements and it always just ends with

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Speaker 3: just arguments to where we don't even want to talk

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Speaker 3: to each other anymore.

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Speaker 2: And to be clear with both of you, when we

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Speaker 2: talk to couples, couples never argue about world peace. They

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Speaker 2: argue about the towel on the floor, the suck in this.

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Speaker 2: So we know it's going to sound trivial. That's what

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Speaker 2: couples argue about. But give us an example of house

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Speaker 2: rules that you'd argue about.

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Speaker 4: The most recent one was I've really struggled with food

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Speaker 4: and body and people's bodies. And something that's been really

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Speaker 4: difficult is Finn's sister used to make a lot of

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Speaker 4: comments about people's bodies. And it was really difficult because

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Speaker 4: sometimes Sin, me and his sister would be home and

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Speaker 4: she would make these comments, but Finn wouldn't hear them.

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Speaker 4: And I think, like just growing up, that was always

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Speaker 4: something that was in my household, so I just didn't

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Speaker 4: want it and like my and so it was something

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Speaker 4: that I had talked to her about and something that

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Speaker 4: she said she was going to work on but then

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Speaker 4: it continued to happen. And I know that when you

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Speaker 4: set a boundary sometimes it needs to be restated, but

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Speaker 4: I just felt really unheard. That's what happens a lot

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Speaker 4: when we disagree. I just feel very unheard. And so

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Speaker 4: that time we had like a really bad argument because

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Speaker 4: I had told him she had made a comment and

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Speaker 4: I would really appreciate if he would say something when

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Speaker 4: those things would come up as well, not just me.

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Speaker 4: And then something that made me really upset was he

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Speaker 4: had said that she had gone to him and whispered

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Speaker 4: in his ear that she had lost weight. And even

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Speaker 4: though I had told him that something that I don't

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Speaker 4: want to be discussed here, I just got really upset

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Speaker 4: because why didn't you say something about like stopping it?

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Speaker 4: And he did it? And I don't know. That was

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Speaker 4: just a really hard argument. I had left the house

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Speaker 4: that night just because I didn't want to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Then can you tell us you a side of that, please?

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Speaker 3: Sure? So she's always struggled with her weight, and if

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Speaker 3: somebody makes any negative comments towards anybody's body type, she

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Speaker 3: does not like it, which is understandable. I guess it

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Speaker 3: wasn't aware that she had this conversation with my sister about, hey,

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Speaker 3: in our household, we're not going to speak about body types,

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Speaker 3: body weight, anything like that. So my sister one day

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Speaker 3: came up to me and said, I've lost some weight,

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Speaker 3: which was her goal, and I said, oh, well, hey,

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Speaker 3: good for you. You know, she's telling me about one

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Speaker 3: of her accomplishments. So I told her a good job.

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Speaker 3: And later on, Grace and I had this conversation about, hey,

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Speaker 3: we don't want these conversations being brought up in the household,

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Speaker 3: so I brought it to her attention. I said, well, hey,

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Speaker 3: my sister recently made this comment to me, and I

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Speaker 3: told her congratulations because she was telling me of one

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Speaker 3: of her accomplishments. And I just started this massive argument

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Speaker 3: that why did I say congratulations? Why did I put

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Speaker 3: a stop to it? That she felt like I was

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Speaker 3: going against her. I felt like, WHOA, I didn't have

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Speaker 3: any bad intentions. My sister came up to me to

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Speaker 3: tell me something. I said, I'm just so I'm good

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Speaker 3: for you for your accomplishments.

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Speaker 1: When you had that disagreement as teenagers, Grace decided to

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Speaker 1: do what she wanted to do and just not tell

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Speaker 1: you and you're the opposite, Finn. Your sister said that

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Speaker 1: to you without Grace there, So technically you didn't have

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Speaker 1: to tell Grace that your sister had that private conversation

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Speaker 1: with you, but you did, and then it turned out

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Speaker 1: that there was a very negative consequence to telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: If Grace back then had told you the truth, there

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Speaker 1: probably would have been a very negative consequence too. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I'm in the backyard smoking with my friends. You would

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Speaker 1: have gotten really upset, so so you're smiling. So I

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Speaker 1: just want to point out that pattern that it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like, if you don't tell the truth, you create

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Speaker 1: a trust issue, and if you do tell the truth,

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Speaker 1: you get into a huge argument. So there's no good

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Speaker 1: solution here in the current way that the two of

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Speaker 1: you communicate.

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Speaker 2: And my question would be, were you arguing the same

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Speaker 2: points twenty times, which is how arguments tend to escalate.

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Speaker 2: You just make the same point again and louder, or

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Speaker 2: with more of an exclamation point. I just want to

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Speaker 2: get a sense of how that escalated into you not

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Speaker 2: sleeping in the house.

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Speaker 4: I was just working really hard to set boundaries with

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Speaker 4: his sister about what was allowed and not allowed in

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Speaker 4: the house. I just wanted Fenn to say, hey, Grace

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Speaker 4: has already set that boundary, but the fact that he

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Speaker 4: didn't just made me feel like he didn't respect the

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Speaker 4: boundaries that I was trying to set.

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Speaker 2: Finn was saying that he didn't think that violated the

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Speaker 2: boundary because it was said in confidence. Maybe he shouldn't

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Speaker 2: have conveyed that to you, but that was just something

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Speaker 2: between he and his sister. They could have discussed it

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Speaker 2: on a walk or something not in the house. The

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Speaker 2: boundary is really about her saying things in front into view.

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Speaker 2: That's where the disagreement is on the principle between the

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Speaker 2: two of you in this case, did you talk about

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Speaker 2: that principle?

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Speaker 3: I feel like she just doesn't want any conversations about

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Speaker 3: weight or body types. And what I was trying to

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Speaker 3: explain to her was I didn't feel right telling my sister, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I know you're coming up to me. You're confiding in

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Speaker 3: me with your accomplishments about losing weight, which was your goal,

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Speaker 3: And I didn't want to answer and just say, well,

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Speaker 3: stop stop, I don't want to hear anything. We're not

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Speaker 3: having these conversations here in this household. It's not allowed

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Speaker 3: cause if that was me, and I was trying to

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Speaker 3: reach a goal, and I finally told somebody like, hey,

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Speaker 3: this is my goal and I've accomplished it. I would

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Speaker 3: feel really bad if somebody told me don't tell me

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Speaker 3: about that price.

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Speaker 1: Just to be clear, is your request that these conversations

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Speaker 1: not happen in front of you, or that these conversations

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Speaker 1: never happen at all?

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Speaker 4: I guess she's not in front of me, but it

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Speaker 4: makes it really difficult to hear that. Finn. I guess

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Speaker 4: was praising weight loss specifically with his sister because she

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Speaker 4: had told me I'm skipped meals, I'm not eating, so

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Speaker 4: it wasn't accomplished in like a very healthy manner, and

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Speaker 4: in my head, it was like perpetuating in eating disorder.

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Speaker 4: But he didn't have that information.

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Speaker 1: Finn, what was your purpose in telling Grace that you

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Speaker 1: had had that private conversation with your sister.

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Speaker 3: I believe the topic had came up somehow that night,

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Speaker 3: and I told her, well, hey, I just want to

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Speaker 3: tell you just so it doesn't come up later on.

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Speaker 3: She says, well, why don't you tell me? And then

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Speaker 3: it just blew up, like if I had just completely betrayed.

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Speaker 2: Her, you know, what's interesting about this specific argument, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure this one's typical, but your sister, Finn, actually,

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Speaker 2: by coming to you when Grace isn't in the room,

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Speaker 2: whispering it just in case she's in earshot, she's actually

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Speaker 2: abiding by the boundaries, Grace, that you set, because she

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Speaker 2: did interpret them to me, not in front of you.

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Speaker 2: She was trying to abide by those boundaries by having

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Speaker 2: it as a private conversation with her brother. And I

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Speaker 2: just want that to be there as well, because Grace,

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Speaker 2: your feeling is I don't feel heard and I don't

341
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Speaker 2: feel seen. But in this case, she was actually doing

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Speaker 2: it because she had you, and that's why it was

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Speaker 2: in a whisper even when you went in the room.

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Speaker 2: Do you see that, Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I do.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if the two of you would try a

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Speaker 1: little experiment right now, could you have that conversation again

348
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Speaker 1: right now, just so we can hear what it sounds like. Finn,

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Speaker 1: If you could start at the point in the conversation

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Speaker 1: where you told Grace that this had happened with your sister,

351
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Speaker 1: don't try to recreate what actually happened. We want to

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Speaker 1: hear you just right now. How would it sound if

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Speaker 1: you had the conversation right now.

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Speaker 3: So with what we're recently talking about, I just want

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Speaker 3: to let you know that my sister did come up

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Speaker 3: to me. She told me that she had lost some

357
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Speaker 3: weight and she whispered it to me, and she was

358
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Speaker 3: excited about her goal. So I told her, good job, congratulations.

359
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Speaker 3: I just thought i'd let you know, thank you for

360
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Speaker 3: leving me.

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Speaker 2: Now, where are you at right now, Grace, because you

362
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 2: seen him and that obviously is not how the original

363
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,399
Speaker 2: discussion went. So this issue goes, what are you feeling

364
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:05,880
Speaker 2: right now?

365
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,600
Speaker 4: When Laurie asked about why Finn had brought that up,

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Speaker 4: I don't think that it was to let me know

367
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Speaker 4: in case I found out. We were in a really

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Speaker 4: like heated argument.

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Speaker 1: Already about what.

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Speaker 4: So we had brought her a donut and she had said,

371
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Speaker 4: yike's two donuts in one day, like not a good thing.

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Speaker 4: And so then I went to the room told him,

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Speaker 4: and she makes comments like that, would you mind helping

374
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Speaker 4: me reinforce the boundary? And then he kind of paused

375
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Speaker 4: and he said yeah. But then I took that as

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Speaker 4: he didn't actually like want to do that, even though

377
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,199
Speaker 4: he was saying he did. He said, so, do you

378
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,160
Speaker 4: just not want any conversations to be had about this?

379
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,520
Speaker 4: I said, well, yes, like I don't want that to happen.

380
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,520
Speaker 4: And He's like, she actually came up to me and

381
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 4: was said this and like secret because she didn't want

382
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:02,679
Speaker 4: you to hear it, And so it sounded more of

383
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 4: like because of the way that you think this is

384
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Speaker 4: now the consequence of that of people having to tiptoe

385
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Speaker 4: around you, and so it didn't seem like it was

386
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 4: I'm telling you this because I don't want you to

387
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 4: find out later. It was more I'm telling you this

388
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Speaker 4: because I'll get the disruption that you're causing.

389
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Speaker 2: This is really tricky and nuance to be clear, because

390
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,880
Speaker 2: this was almost like a provocation. He is a doughnut

391
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Speaker 2: and then she responds to the doughnuts spontaneously by saying, oh,

392
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 2: it's too in one day. So she had her own

393
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,920
Speaker 2: reaction because she has her own issues, perhaps with weighting food.

394
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Speaker 2: And my question for you, Finn is if you disagree

395
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Speaker 2: about where the boundary is or what's a reasonable boundary,

396
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 2: do you feel comfortable if you have a different position

397
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Speaker 2: to voice it on a topic that's a really sensitive

398
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Speaker 2: topic for Grace.

399
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Speaker 3: I don't feel one hundred percent confident.

400
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Speaker 1: Can you tell Grace your point of view?

401
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 3: So that night I had explained that my point of

402
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 3: view was if somebody came to me telling me their

403
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,679
Speaker 3: goals and their achievements and they were happy about it,

404
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,919
Speaker 3: I didn't want to shut them down. Now if it

405
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 3: was having some sort of negative impact where they were

406
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 3: disrespecting you, I would have immediately put a stop to it.

407
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 3: The other thing I explained to you was, for example,

408
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 3: if I was working toward my goals and I was

409
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 3: finally reaching them, it would feel really good if somebody said, hey,

410
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 3: good job. And then when you told me that that

411
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 3: still wasn't okay, I just felt like, okay, Well, then

412
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 3: I don't want to say anything around you.

413
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 1: You guys are talking about the content, and what we

414
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 1: would like you to talk about is the process. So

415
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: you can argue the different points about anything. We happened

416
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 1: to be talking about this weight boundary, but we could

417
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 1: be talking about any of the many arguments that the

418
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 1: two of you have had, And the process is what

419
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,159
Speaker 1: Grace was picking up on earlier, which is that she suspects,

420
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: and I suspect that she's right that you feel a

421
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 1: bit constrained by this boundary, and you're also not sure

422
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: where the boundary begins and where it ends. So can

423
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 1: you talk to her about what the two of you

424
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: do when you feel like I want to help make

425
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable and at the same time this is

426
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: making me so uncomfortable that we need to find someplace

427
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: where we both feel comfortable.

428
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 3: Something that we've argued about which I feel like everything

429
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,360
Speaker 3: ties in together has been jealousy. We've recently had arguments

430
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 3: about jealousy and coworkers texting me where there was no

431
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 3: the conversation ever went anywhere other than work related conversations.

432
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 3: There was this big argument to where she went through

433
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 3: my phone, went through my social media pretty much, and

434
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 3: I explained to her this goes back to the trust

435
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 3: issues as well. I said, you can look through my phone,

436
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 3: but I just want to let you know that if

437
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 3: you go through that, you're telling me how much you

438
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 3: trust me. I know I'm not hiding anything. After I

439
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 3: explained that to her, she still went through it, and

440
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 3: I said.

441
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 1: Okay, can you tell Grace how you feel about what happened?

442
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: And then Grace, I want you to tell Finn how

443
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: you feel about these texts. And what you see. We

444
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: want to stick with, not the facts and not whether

445
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,119
Speaker 1: nobody's right or wrong here. So there's no let me

446
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: tell you why I'm right. It's let me tell you

447
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: how this makes me feel. That's all we want to hear.

448
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 3: So when you want to go through my phone you

449
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 3: started questioning me about text messages, I feel like maybe

450
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 3: you just don't trust me, and I don't know. It

451
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 3: makes me question whether I'm doing something wrong. I go

452
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 3: through my messages, I go through my phone, and it's

453
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 3: just I feel like a bad person for some reason,

454
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 3: even though I feel like I'm not doing anything wrong.

455
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like because of the history that we've

456
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 4: had with lying, sometimes I think that you're going to

457
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 4: do something back because I hurt you like years ago.

458
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 4: And so when I see a reoccurring coworker's name pop up,

459
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 4: I just start to put in information that isn't there

460
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 4: and makes me wonder about a lot of things, even

461
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 4: though you've never given me a reason to feel that way.

462
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 4: Sometimes those thoughts are so big that I have to

463
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 4: do something and check and make sure.

464
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: Grace, you're sitting with a lot in that moment, and

465
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 2: you do have to do something about those feelings. Does

466
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: it occur to you that one of the things you

467
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: could do is come to Finn and say, hey, you know,

468
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 2: I sometimes get these feelings that you haven't totally forgiven

469
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 2: me or gotten over those lies I told you years ago,

470
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 2: back in high school and college, and it makes me

471
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 2: worry that you're still holding some kind of anger or

472
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: resentment and that that will be expressed in some kind

473
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: of way. So when I see a coworker's name come up,

474
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: immediately go to is that how it's being expressed. I

475
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: have these worries and fears, and I thought I should

476
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 2: tell you about them, because I know you haven't given

477
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 2: me any reason to be concerned or suspicious, but I

478
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: thought you should know where my mind goes. Has it

479
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 2: a goed to you that you can just go with

480
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: the feeling without actually the behavior that signals I don't

481
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: trust you, But to convey I do trust you here,

482
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: I'm sharing.

483
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 4: This what you're saying to you guys obviously the most ideal,

484
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 4: but I think that Finn has sometimes a difficult time

485
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 4: with receiving emotions and expressing them, and so if I

486
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 4: think it will be met with, well, I'm not doing

487
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 4: anything or the emotion won't be touched on.

488
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: Can you tell him what would be a response that

489
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: would feel really comforting and reassuring to you?

490
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

491
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 4: I think if I were to come to you and

492
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 4: tell you about what was coming up for me, I

493
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 4: think something that would be helpful is I think sometimes

494
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 4: like when I come to you, you ask like, well,

495
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 4: why why do you feel that way? And I think

496
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 4: it would just be helpful for you to respond with

497
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 4: I would never want to like hurt you in that

498
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 4: way of having that reassurance, I think like that would

499
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 4: be helpful in those moments.

500
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: Would it help if he give you a hug in

501
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: those moments?

502
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 4: Yeah? And I think it would be helpful if you

503
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 4: gave me like a.

504
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: Hug, Finn.

505
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: How does that sound to you?

506
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: I hear what she's saying, and what I've expressed in

507
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: the past is almost like if I were to apologize

508
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 3: to what she says, I feel like I'm kind of

509
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 3: accepting what she's saying as to you know what, You're right,

510
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 3: I am.

511
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: Did you hear that she was asking for you to

512
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: apologize for something? Is that how you heard it?

513
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 3: I heard she wants to be heard.

514
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: I know that actually she wants to be reassured. MM,

515
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: that's what she wants.

516
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: But also there's going to be a critical difference, Grace,

517
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: in terms of how Finn hears it. If you say

518
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: it the way I suggested, in which you say, I

519
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 2: have these worries and concerns, they might not be reasonable.

520
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: I'm going back so many years, but I'm sharing my

521
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: anxiety with you. Sounds very different than sometimes I worry

522
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 2: if you're doing such and such, if you come from

523
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 2: the place of this might be me as opposed to

524
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,719
Speaker 2: it's you. Because when Finn hears as I'm feeling suspicious,

525
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 2: he hears that as therefore you did something that triggered that,

526
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 2: as opposed to I'm still dealing with some of these feelings,

527
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: and this is what comes up, which sounds much less

528
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: an accusation, And I think that's what would make it

529
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 2: much easier for Finn to just stay with reassurance if

530
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 2: he knew that's what you needed, as opposed to feeling

531
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: like he has to defend himself because there's a subtext

532
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: of accusation.

533
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 3: I do catch myself often trying to defend myself, and

534
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: that's been another argument in itself. For example, if she'll

535
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,239
Speaker 3: ask me questions, why is she texting you? Why does

536
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 3: her name always pop up? Why does she always ask

537
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 3: you questions? Why does she call her husband? And I

538
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 3: answer her questions, I say, well, I have more experience

539
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 3: than my career to what I could help this person out.

540
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 3: And after I get my explanation, and she'll say, I

541
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 3: just don't understand why she's texting you, though I feel

542
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: it's almost like I'm being interrogated.

543
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: Or it's an attack.

544
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 3: Correct, an attack. That was the word I was about.

545
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: To say, grease. It's interesting that the trust issues come

546
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: up because you were the one who lied to Finn,

547
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: and yet you question whether he's going to retaliate and

548
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: be dishonest with you. So he hasn't done anything that

549
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: has made you question whether you can trust him. And

550
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, given that some of this has to do

551
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: with your insecurity, have you ever explored any of that

552
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: your own history in therapy?

553
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

554
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 4: I currently go to therapy every week, and that's something

555
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 4: that has been the focus most recently, the history of

556
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 4: my confidence, because I feel like something that I've discovered

557
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 4: in therapy is engaging in self sabotaging behaviors, and I

558
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 4: know that it can be like overwhelming for Finn sometimes,

559
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 4: and so I have expressed I hope that you don't

560
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 4: get tired and like leave. He has never said he

561
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 4: was going to, but you know, I just feel like

562
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 4: sometimes people can only take so much.

563
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: Well, that's the self sabotaging. Though. You're worried that he's

564
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: going to leave, so then you try to control him

565
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: in all these different ways, which might actually not make

566
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: him leave, but make him feel less close to you. Yeah,

567
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: So the very thing that you're afraid of, by trying

568
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: to control him so that it doesn't happen, might actually

569
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: make him feel overly controlled, and then he's going to

570
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: feel distant from you. So we're suggesting that there are

571
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: other ways. It sounds paradoxical, but to be less controlling

572
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: will actually allow him to come closer to you. Yeah,

573
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: And that's where you're going to have to deal with

574
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: your anxiety, because it's your anxiety that you're bringing to him.

575
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: It's not anything that he's done. It's this anxiety about

576
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: whether you are worthy of his interest, and he's not

577
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: doing anything. And you agree with that, I think in principle, Yeah.

578
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 4: I do agree. I do agree that he isn't doing

579
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 4: anything and hasn't done anything.

580
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: Finn, how does that feel to hear that? For her

581
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: to say he isn't doing anything and he hasn't done anything.

582
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: This huge smile swept over you.

583
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: She's acknowledged that in the past, And what makes me

584
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 3: smile is that I feel like, although that's been acknowledged,

585
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 3: the argument have still come up.

586
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: And Finn, have you acknowledged to Grace how that makes

587
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: you feel in those moments? Have you been able to

588
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: say to her something like, you know, Grace, I'm trying

589
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: really hard to understand how you feel. But sometimes when

590
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 2: it it's about your anxiety, and it comes out in

591
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: a way that makes me feel that I'm defending myself

592
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: a lot. And I don't feel resentful, but I might

593
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: if this continues.

594
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 3: I think we've had that conversation.

595
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: You've said those things.

596
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 3: So we have this huge walking closet and it's in

597
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 3: our bedroom and one time we were sitting in there

598
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 3: and we actually had a calm conversation. We were expressing

599
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 3: our feelings about this topic. In particular, from what I remember,

600
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: I thought I had explained that to her about how

601
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: I felt about this.

602
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 4: Yes he did, he did.

603
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: Yea, what happened where you were able to go into

604
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: the closet and have a really calm conversation. Is that

605
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: a place that the two of you can go and

606
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: have home or conversations. What happened that time that went

607
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: so well, that went so differently from all of these

608
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: other conversations that escalate into screaming matches.

609
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 3: I might have been getting ready for bed, I don't remember,

610
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: but she walked into the closet and she just said, hey,

611
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 3: take a seat. We sat down and we just started talking.

612
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 3: She apologized about things that she has said, and I

613
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 3: believe I also apologize.

614
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 4: He did express. I just feel like when I'm accused

615
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 4: of these things, it just really upsets me because I'm

616
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 4: doing X y Z to try to build like a

617
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 4: future for us, and it just doesn't feel great. There

618
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 4: was like really deep conversations about emotions I really really like,

619
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 4: and so when I have them with Finn, it just

620
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 4: makes me really like happy when I hear about his

621
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 4: feelings and what's coming up for him. But I feel

622
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 4: like that's very rare.

623
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: But that's why it's so important, Grace and Finn that

624
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: we come back to this question that we're asking you

625
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: what allowed that to happen in the closet at that time.

626
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: What allowed you, Finn, to feel comfortable enough not to defend,

627
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: but to actually be vulnerable and talk about your feelings.

628
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: What was that?

629
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: I feel like it was when I would tell her

630
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: pretty much how I felt, she would look at me

631
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 3: and listen. I remember her specifically just nodding her head

632
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: to reassure me that she was listening to what I

633
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: was saying.

634
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: I think that what allowed you to say it is

635
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,239
Speaker 2: that she says, let's talk, and the talk started with

636
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: an apology rather than an accusation. The minute you don't

637
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: feel you have to defend, you have more access to

638
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: your feelings because you're not busy defending, and you have

639
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: a little bit more ability to express them, and then grace,

640
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 2: you have the ability to hear them and appreciate them.

641
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 2: And that's really important to note that when you start

642
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: with the anxiety, which finnu here as an accusation or

643
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,719
Speaker 2: an attack, then you get defensive. Then those conversations don't

644
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 2: go well. But when you start with a vulnerability and

645
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: you respond with vulnerability, then you connect. And that is

646
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: key for the two of you to remember that each

647
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 2: being vulnerable is going to allow you to have much

648
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: more productive and connective conversations than being defensive or accusatory.

649
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, makes sense, Chrice, What is going on for you

650
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: right now?

651
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 4: I think I just like appreciate guy saying that, I

652
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 4: just want then to be more open to.

653
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: Doing that, and I think that he is open to

654
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: doing that when he doesn't feel like a big argument

655
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: is about to break out. Going back to the weight issue,

656
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: for example, do I tell her this? Do I not

657
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 1: tell her this? What do I do? In this moment?

658
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: He can't really talk about his experience of what it's

659
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: like when he feels like there's no way to please you. Yeah,

660
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 1: because I think ultimately he wants you to feel good.

661
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: But sometimes what you're asking of him feels impossible, confusing, unrealistic.

662
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: That's where these conversations are so important. That you, in

663
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: an ideal world might like there to be zero discussion

664
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: of weight, and it's particularly in your home, and then

665
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: you have this other person living with you, and you

666
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: might reasonably say, look, I don't want people to discuss

667
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: diets and weight and their insecurities in front of me, Okay,

668
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: but they have to be able to talk about things

669
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: amongst themselves because otherwise they can have their own independent relationship. Yeah,

670
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: and that conversation just escalated because there's no room for

671
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: both of the perspectives. So I'm wondering if we can

672
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: just go back and see if you guys can have

673
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: a different discussion right now about weight and what that

674
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 1: might look like, and if you can really invite Finn

675
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: to share his feelings about what this is like for

676
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: him as someone who thinks you're beautiful, knows your history

677
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: and wants to be able to create some harmony in

678
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: the household and make you feel comfortable, but also create

679
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: an environment where he feels comfortable too. Can you ask

680
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: him offer an invitation to him. Both of you need

681
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: to keep that in mind that when you're talking to

682
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: the other person, you're offering them an invitation. You're not

683
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: trying to sway them. You're trying to invite them from

684
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 1: a place of curiosity. Can you make that invitation to him?

685
00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 4: So I want to, I guess, talk about conversation and

686
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 4: how can I make you feel more comfortable.

687
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: How can I reassure you that I'm okay with listening

688
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 2: to what you have to say, that I'll really try

689
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 2: and understand it and hear it with my ears rather

690
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: than with my gut.

691
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 3: I feel like when you ask me questions, especially difficult

692
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 3: topics like this, if I give your response, you can't

693
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 3: tell me that my feelings are wrong. I feel like

694
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 3: that's what makes it tough.

695
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 4: So what would make it comfortable or I guess like

696
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 4: more reassuring for you in those moments?

697
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: How can I reassure you that I'm listening and I'm

698
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 1: taking in how you feel.

699
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about the conversation that we had when we

700
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 3: were sitting in the closet. It was a calm voice,

701
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 3: eye contact. We were not cutting each other off.

702
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: So Finn, can you tell her how you feel about

703
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: the boundaries right now that are in the household and

704
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 1: what you would like to see that take into account

705
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: Grace's feelings but also yours.

706
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 3: I know the boundaries that you want set in the household,

707
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 3: to a point, I feel like they were a little vague.

708
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 3: I want more clarification because I feel confused to where

709
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 3: it's like, well, what can be said and what cannot

710
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 3: be said?

711
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 4: What do you think you would be comfortable with what's

712
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 4: being said.

713
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 3: Me personally if I feel like it's not attacking you,

714
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 3: For example, I've used to say clean food. Right, if

715
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: I were to eat certain foods like hey, I don't

716
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: want to eat junk food or dirty food, not get

717
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 3: attacked and say, well, food's not dirty. You can't say that.

718
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 3: Comments like that just make you say, okay, well I

719
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 3: don't want to say anything then never mind.

720
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 2: What was good there, Grace is that you were intent

721
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 2: on following up and understanding. You stuck with it until

722
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: he did get to some specificity. You mentioned feedings a

723
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: couple of times, and I think it would be good

724
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: for you, Finn, to have more of that. For each

725
00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 2: of the positions you have. You can have a feeling

726
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: behind it. You can say, for example, or try and

727
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: stay away from the things I know are problematic. But

728
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 2: if something comes out and it's in the gray area,

729
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: it would be great if you just let it go.

730
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: So I didn't have to feel like I'm self conscious

731
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: about talking about the stop because then I just don't

732
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 2: want to talk about it. So you add a layer

733
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 2: of the emotional impact before the request comes, and that

734
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 2: makes it much easier for Grace to hear and understand,

735
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 2: and you kind of know how you feel. It wasn't

736
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 2: very difficult for you to articulate to get to the feelings,

737
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 2: and that phrasing you use Grace about what would be comfortable.

738
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 2: It's a really useful one, what would be comfortable, because

739
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: it's a really considerate question to ask, So there's something

740
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 2: generous in the question alone.

741
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm thinking back to that original disagreement that

742
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: you guys had about whether Grace could experiment or not

743
00:39:53,239 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: experiment with smoking and drinking, and that's another place where you'

744
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: finn felt very strongly the way Grace now feels very

745
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: strongly about the way conversations and you tried to control

746
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: her and it didn't work out too well. She ended

747
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: up lying, She ended up going behind your back. She

748
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: wasn't able to say to you, I really want to

749
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: experiment with this, saying no, you don't really feel comfortable

750
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: with it. I don't want to lie to you, but

751
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 1: I also feel like this is something that I want

752
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: to do right now. And maybe she would have or

753
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: maybe she wouldn't have. Maybe you would have had a

754
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: better conversation about it, and it wouldn't have caused so

755
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: much anxiety on both sides because there would have been

756
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: room for you to talk about we have this difference

757
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: and we're different people and we want to make each

758
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 1: other comfortable, but we also need to live in the world.

759
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 1: Every couple has to manage those questions. How much do

760
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: we make the other person comfortable, how much do we

761
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: make ourselves comfortable? Where can those overlap where we're both comfortable,

762
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: and where are the ways where we have to tolerate

763
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: a little bit of difference. And that might be where

764
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: you don't like the terminology he uses around something, and

765
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: he can be aware of that and try to change that,

766
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: But he's also saying, if I happen to use this

767
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: terminology because that's what I'm used to, can we just

768
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: not make a big deal out of it. I'm trying

769
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: in all of these ways, and I want to be

770
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: recognized for all the ways that I'm trying to make

771
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: you comfortable. But at a certain point I become uncomfortable

772
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: because I feel like I can't say anything without me

773
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: being bad in your eyes. And same with this question

774
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: around the texting and the coworker, where he's saying, I

775
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: need you to trust me on this, and I will

776
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: be there and give you the hug and give you

777
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: the reassurance. But if it happens every single time it's

778
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: going to push me away. It's going to be hard

779
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: for me to do the thing that you want that

780
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 1: makes you feel comfortable. Grace, which is me being vulnerable

781
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: and opening up with you.

782
00:41:55,360 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and grace also to recognize that when he said

783
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: to you, you can look at my phone whenever. If

784
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 2: you look at it too much, it's going to imply

785
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: that you don't trust me, and that will make me

786
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: feel all kinds of things. It's the principle of the

787
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 2: access that's reassuring, rather than having to verify that however

788
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 2: regularly by going through the phone. The fact that you

789
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: have access should be the reassuring thing and the thing

790
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 2: that you then convey appreciation for.

791
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: And maybe what you're really asking underneath all that is,

792
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: can you give me more reassurance that you find me attractive?

793
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 1: Regardless of these texts, I'm, for whatever reason, feeling insecure,

794
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: and here are the ways that I would love to

795
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: be reassured. Maybe it's verbally, maybe it's nonverbally through touch.

796
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: Do you know what those ways are that you like

797
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: to be reassured that you feel desired by him? He

798
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 1: looked right at you, like, Oh, I really want to

799
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 1: hear this. So this would be really good information for him.

800
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 4: I think through touch, but also your words. I know

801
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 4: that you say like you love me, we say that

802
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,760
Speaker 4: a lot, but I think just being able to express,

803
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 4: like wristuff, you do find me attractive, not just when

804
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 4: I get my eyebrows done or something. I'm not saying

805
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 4: that you only do it with them, but like that

806
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 4: reaction that you do where you're like, dang, I like

807
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:20,439
Speaker 4: onet that more.

808
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 3: When she gets like her eyebrows done, her eyelashes, I

809
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 3: just did this exaggerated hype pretty much. I'm like, day,

810
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 3: that looks so good. Let me see it. Can take

811
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,439
Speaker 3: a picture of this that looks good and.

812
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 2: Look at the expression on her face when you do that. Yeah, right,

813
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: and so that's great that all kinds of other ways

814
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 2: to do that. You can do that that way, but

815
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: it gets a really strong response, and Race is saying

816
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: she needs more of that and not just eyebrows day.

817
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 2: It can be a regular day, and it can be

818
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 2: passing by and just touching her as you pass by

819
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 2: and whispering something to her little moment that can really

820
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: convey that would be good to amplify.

821
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 3: That's definitely something I'm going to try more.

822
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: And I have one last question. You mentioned in your

823
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: letter that sometimes you say things that you don't mean.

824
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 4: We don't call each other names, but we do attack

825
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 4: each other. Last night, for example, I was talking to

826
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 4: him about starting a couple's therapy and I had brought

827
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 4: up like something about entrance and the cost, and he

828
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 4: said something along the lines of it's going to be

829
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 4: X amount a month, So how long do you think

830
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 4: it's going to take? And I said, well, it just

831
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 4: depends on how invested we are, I guess. But when

832
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 4: he asked the question of well how long is this

833
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 4: going to take? Guy shut down. I stopped talking because.

834
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 1: You heard it as we are not worth investing in.

835
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: How did you hear it?

836
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, like it's going to be that much, so we

837
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 4: can just work on it by ourselves.

838
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: Like I don't prioritize our marriage. That's what you heard.

839
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: That's not what he said, but that's what you heard, right, Yeah, okay, right,

840
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: I don't think you were saying to Grace, I don't

841
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: prioritize us for our marriage. Can you tell Grace what

842
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: you meant when you said that?

843
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 3: Well, I feel like the conversation came up about the

844
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 3: insurance not taking it for couple's therapy. And as I

845
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 3: was driving, you were giving me all these numbers about

846
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 3: how much it might be, and I just said, okay,

847
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 3: so how much would it be a month? I was

848
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 3: just asking for our financial information pretty much. And the

849
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 3: reason I was asking you is because what you do

850
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 3: for work, I feel like you'd have more information. So

851
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 3: I was pretty much asking, Okay, we'd be paying this

852
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 3: much a month, how long would you like to keep

853
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 3: going to this person? And when I kind of got

854
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 3: the negative response to it, where I was like, hey,

855
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 3: that's not what I meant, I feel like that's when

856
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 3: I got upset. And something Grace didn't mentioned is I

857
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 3: told her, you know what, it doesn't matter what the

858
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 3: price is. I'm willing to pay X of money just

859
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 3: so I could finally ask you questions in peace.

860
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: I'm laughing because that is the core of what happens

861
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 1: both ways. You both interpret each other's behavior as an attack.

862
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: The interpret questions as an attack.

863
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: Yes, you interpret questions like tell me about the text. Oh,

864
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: you're bad, right, you're cheating on me. So when you

865
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: think about how we make stories up in our heads

866
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: about what something means. We try to make meaning and

867
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: we tell a story and your story there, Grace was

868
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,439
Speaker 1: he doesn't prioritize our relationship. This is a burden. He's

869
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: kind of grudgingly thinking about can we put a price

870
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: on our marriage, right or does he want to spend

871
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: the money on something else that's not as valuable. And

872
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: I think what he was saying is I'm trying to

873
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: protect us. Of course, I value our marriage and I'm

874
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: trying to take care of our financial picture at the

875
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: same time. So I'm trying to be responsible by figuring out, Okay,

876
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: how can we make this work? And so I need

877
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: information because of your profession. You might have an idea

878
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: about how long this might go on, and that can

879
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,439
Speaker 1: help me budget. So let's try to think about this.

880
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: His interpretation was, I'm asking these questions for the good

881
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: of us, and you heard, oh, I'm not invested in us.

882
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

883
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 4: I do think that that happens a lot when we argue, Finn.

884
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 4: We'll often say like, I'm not trying to attack you,

885
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 4: like I'm on your team, but it doesn't feel that way.

886
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 4: Sometimes both like we're on completely opposite teams.

887
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: Well that's mutual, right, you both feel attacked in the

888
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 2: conversations that you have then we're going to suggest ways

889
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 2: for you to change some of that dynamic. And the

890
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: new thing to do would be to say, I'm beating

891
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: that a little bit as an attack. Do you mean

892
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 2: that this way? Or how do you mean that? And

893
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 2: you need to be much slower in how you have

894
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: these discussions because you say one short thing and another

895
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 2: short thing, and then the ten assumptions in between those things,

896
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 2: and a lot of them are wrong. You really have

897
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 2: to put assumptions aside, slow it down and go, wait,

898
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: I was feeding that that might be wrong. I just

899
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 2: want to check. So the slowing down, the rushing forward

900
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: based on faulty assumptions, which you each have plenty of

901
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 2: as we've seen today, will be very helpful.

902
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: So, Grace and Finn, we have some advice for you,

903
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: and we were thinking about how you met so young,

904
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: and how we all, no matter what age we meet,

905
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: bring things from our childhoods into our current relationships. And

906
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: what we would like you to do is to each

907
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: write down one thing that you think you bring in.

908
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: So Grace, what do you bring in? Finn? What do

909
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: you bring in that sometimes gets in the way of

910
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: being present in the moment. For example, Grace, you mentioned

911
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: that you have a history in your family of weight

912
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: being handled a certain way. So what part of that

913
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: gets in the way of these conversations with Finn and

914
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 1: Finn you probably have something, maybe you felt accused, but

915
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: whatever it was that you think sometimes gets conflated with

916
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: what's happening in the present in this relationship. Now, So

917
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: that's the first task. We always say, if it's hysterical,

918
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: it's historical, and that means that if you're having a

919
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: really big reaction to something, part of it is about

920
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: what's happening in the moment, but part of it is

921
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: also probably about what has happened in the past that

922
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: is getting layered onto the conversation in the present.

923
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 4: Okay, do you want us to share it with each other?

924
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: Yes, reflect on it separately, write it down, and then

925
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:46,959
Speaker 1: share it with each other.

926
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 2: Another task would like you to do once a day

927
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 2: each of you initiate a flirtation. It can be very mild,

928
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 2: it can be acute text. It can be you paused

929
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 2: by and you caress the other person. It can be

930
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 2: you say something complimentary, or you leave a voicemail, you

931
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 2: left a note about AI miss your cute face. Something

932
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 2: that's flirty so it's romantic slash sexual, but one little

933
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 2: flirt that each give to one another once a day

934
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 2: because that will remind you of your romantic connection.

935
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 1: I think you guys are much more excited about this

936
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: task than the first one. You guys are smiling so

937
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 1: much right now.

938
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 3: I thought that was easier.

939
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: And that's something that we know. Grace is really craving

940
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: and I'll bet you too.

941
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 3: Fit.

942
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: It's nice to hear that your partner really desires you

943
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: as thinking about you, and they bring that sense of

944
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: fun back to the relationship, and so when you are

945
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: having more difficult conversations, you have that glue of the

946
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: fun and the enjoyment as well.

947
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: The next thing is we know that sometimes your arguments

948
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:59,320
Speaker 2: can escalate and go from zero to sixty very very quickly,

949
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: and especially on certain topics. We'd like you to both

950
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: recognize that the minute the escalation is happening, and you

951
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 2: know when it's happening because faces are getting read or

952
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 2: tones might get louder, emphasis might be stronger. The minute

953
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 2: that's happening, it means you're not understanding the other person,

954
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: you're getting defensive, you're getting combative, you've stopped listening and

955
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 2: trying to understand the other person, and you have a

956
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: history of making a lot of assumptions, some of which

957
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: might not be true. So every time one of you

958
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 2: catches both of you catch an escalation happening, you get

959
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: to come up with a ceasefire. And the instruction is

960
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 2: you go into curiosity mode, because at that point you've

961
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 2: stopped understanding the other person. So now that's the actual goal.

962
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 2: You pause whatever the argument is about and say, phinn,

963
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: I'm getting annoyed, I'm getting frustrated, but I'm putting that aside.

964
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: I really want to understand exactly what you think and

965
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 2: how you feel about it, and let's spend a little

966
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 2: bit of time on that, and then we can spend

967
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 2: time on you understanding me. But let's make sure we

968
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 2: really understand one another rather than making assumptions and now

969
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 2: giving on assumptions that are faulty in the first place.

970
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 2: It is very difficult to stop mid argument, but usually

971
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: be fine if one of you can take the initative

972
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 2: at some point and say the escalation time, curiosity time,

973
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 2: whatever the phrase that you would use that suits you,

974
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 2: and come up with the phrase that is the signal.

975
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 2: This is a way to really train yourselves to get

976
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 2: curious rather than get angry.

977
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: And in both of your lines of work, as a

978
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: police officer, you know all about de escalation and how

979
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: to handle that. And as a therapist grace when things

980
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: start to escalate, you know how to help people de escalate.

981
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: So come up with something that feels familiar to both

982
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 1: of you in terms of how can we de escalate

983
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: with each other? What is the word? The action that

984
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: we know is just our shorthand. And now we're going

985
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: to get really curious because clearly we're not understanding each

986
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: other right now, and you might even need as part

987
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 1: of the de escalation. We're going to take a fifteen

988
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: minute break.

989
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 2: And once you find the word that will get you

990
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 2: to stop what you're doing. Shake hands on the fact

991
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 2: that when somebody uses that word, it's like a timeout

992
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 2: you go to abide, So just be very clear that

993
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 2: you're agreeing to abide by that timeout.

994
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: We find that if words are getting really loud and

995
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 1: people can't hear each other, sometimes the signal that they

996
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: have with each other is one person will just start dancing,

997
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 1: one person does a funny move for something with their body,

998
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: and then it's like, oh, whoa wait, Okay, got it,

999
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: and the other person has to mimic it, and you

1000
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 1: just okay, we're on the same page. Now, this is

1001
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: our de escalation, and that means this is our ceasefire

1002
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 1: right now, and the other person does it in kind.

1003
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: Maybe we need a little break to de escalate ourselves.

1004
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: But we're going to come back to it and get curious.

1005
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 2: And we're going to recommend a book about couple's communication,

1006
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 2: and we'd like you to this week read the chapter,

1007
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 2: listen to the chapter together, and just discuss what you

1008
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 2: took away from it how you can implement anything there

1009
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:05,959
Speaker 2: in your own lives. The book is called Seven Principles

1010
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 2: for Making a Marriage Work, and it's by John Gottman.

1011
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 2: You're smiling, Grace, you're familiar.

1012
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have it on my Amazon curve, but I

1013
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 4: haven't ordered it.

1014
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 2: Well, then it's going to be very easy to order.

1015
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 2: We want you to each listen to the chapter or

1016
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 2: each read and then discuss this week, because as you

1017
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: will see, there there are four signs of poor communication.

1018
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 2: They're called them the four horsemen of the apocalypse. All

1019
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 2: couples have them, but when they are really the main

1020
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 2: pattern of the communication, they're very problematic and they include criticism, contempt, stonewalling,

1021
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 2: and defensiveness. And again it's about the dosage and the frequency,

1022
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 2: but we want you to be aware so that you

1023
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 2: can avoid them.

1024
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: And the next thing is we love the fact that

1025
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 1: when you got into the closet together you were able

1026
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 1: to have this really calm, open, vulnerable conversation with each other.

1027
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: You could truly hear each other. It felt safe to

1028
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 1: both of you. So we would like you to build

1029
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: in to your relationship a once a week, very quick

1030
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: relationship check in in the closet. Go in the closet

1031
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: once a week, and make this like a date. It's

1032
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: not going to feel burdensome because it could be five minutes.

1033
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: And it's really that curiosity exercise. Tell me about you,

1034
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: tell me about you, and it's just to really get

1035
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: to know what's going on inside for each other, and

1036
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: it's a place that you're associating with. We feel safe

1037
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 1: to be open here. We don't escalate in here. We

1038
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 1: know that we can go into curiosity mode in here,

1039
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: and it's good for us to check in because sometimes

1040
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,919
Speaker 1: when we don't check in, things build up and then

1041
00:55:56,080 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: we're already primed to have an argument because we're already upset.

1042
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 1: We want you to talk about it before you get upset.

1043
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: So the closet is a very sacred place. We do

1044
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,720
Speaker 1: not escalate in the closet.

1045
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:09,359
Speaker 4: Okay, sounds good.

1046
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: Okay. If you do get into an argument this week,

1047
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: or you do have a disagreement this week, we would

1048
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: like you to do the stop whatever that signal is

1049
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: for you. We want you to go into the curiosity,

1050
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: and then we want you to argue the other person's perspective.

1051
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 1: And by argue, we don't mean get loud. We mean

1052
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: we want you to articulate. If you are the other person,

1053
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: tell your version of it from that person's perspective. You

1054
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: don't have to agree with their perspective at all. It's

1055
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: just now I really understand why they feel this way,

1056
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: I understand why this is a big deal to that,

1057
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: and then you can kind of come to Okay, now

1058
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: what do we do now that we both really feel

1059
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: that we understand the other person.

1060
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 2: It's very powerful to hear the other person argue your

1061
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 2: perspective because then it makes you feel like, Okay, she

1062
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: does get it. Ok he does get it, because he's

1063
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 2: doing a good job about giving my side.

1064
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 4: I think that sounds pretty like doable and good.

1065
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 3: It sounds good. I really like the exercise, even though

1066
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 3: it sounds like it'll be a little tough. I like

1067
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 3: the one where we have to argue the other person's

1068
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 3: point of view. I was like, Wow, that's I've never

1069
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 3: thought about doing something like that. It seems interesting. So

1070
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to trying that exercise out.

1071
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you so much for having us. We really

1072
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 4: appreciate it. I feel like you guys are really helpful

1073
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 4: and being able to just get to I guess, the

1074
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 4: root of things, and so I really appreciate you taking

1075
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:36,439
Speaker 4: the time and having us on here.

1076
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 2: You know, one of the things our listeners can't see

1077
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 2: is how a couple, when they're sitting next to each

1078
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 2: other are interacting during the session. And this couple was

1079
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 2: so warm, and they were looking at each other, and

1080
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 2: they were smiting at each other, they were touching each

1081
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 2: other the entire time they had contact between them. It

1082
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 2: was really an important facet that we certainly register very

1083
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 2: much as therapists, and it makes us feel like this

1084
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 2: is a couple that really cares about each other. And

1085
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: that's always great to see because that's a strong foundation

1086
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 2: to build in.

1087
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was clear how much love there

1088
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 1: is between the two of them. They clearly care a

1089
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: lot about each other, and they have a real enjoyment

1090
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: of each other that they could smile, they could laugh

1091
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: when Grace would start to tear up or cry. He

1092
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: was very present. You know, when we think about couples

1093
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 1: who have communication difficulties, but they also don't have the

1094
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: glue that this couple has, there's another hurdle, and they

1095
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 1: don't have that hurdle. I do really think that the

1096
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: fact that they got together young it gave them one advantage,

1097
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: which is that they on one hand, kind of grew

1098
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: up together. On the other hand, they're still using communication

1099
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: patterns and they still have childhood histories getting in the

1100
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: way of adult communication. But I think that the tools

1101
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:04,919
Speaker 1: that we gave them are things that they can use

1102
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:09,919
Speaker 1: every single day and find that eventually, when they put

1103
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: these into practice in a consistent way, that it's really

1104
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: going to change the way they interact with each other

1105
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: on a regular basis and they won't have those kinds

1106
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: of escalations.

1107
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 2: And that's the thing that I think is also very encouraging.

1108
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 2: They both seem so open to these tools and to

1109
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 2: experiment with these things and even a little excited about it.

1110
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 2: So that's very promising.

1111
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 1: You're listening to dear therapists. We'll be back after a

1112
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: short break. So, guy, we heard back from Grayson Finn

1113
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: and I'm excited to hear how their week went.

1114
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 4: Hi Laurie, Hi Guy, this is Grayson Finn. We were

1115
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 4: just calling you to give you an update on the

1116
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 4: tasks that you asked us to do, starting with the

1117
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 4: cute text flirting. That was really fun. I feel like

1118
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,320
Speaker 4: receiving Finn's messages really made me feel loved and like

1119
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 4: he was thinking about me, and just also being able

1120
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 4: to do that with him too. I think really bridged

1121
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 4: and furthered a connection between the two of us.

1122
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, same thing. Grace actually left a posted note on

1123
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 3: the mirror one day that I saw when I woke up,

1124
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 3: and I feel like that really meant a lot, even

1125
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 3: though something really minor, made me feel a lot more

1126
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 3: connected to her, And it's crazy how something so small

1127
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 3: impacted my day. So I feel like that really helped.

1128
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 4: And then we were able to establish kind of like

1129
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 4: we didn't argue this past week, which was kind of

1130
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 4: really nice. There was a little bit of a we

1131
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 4: were going to argue, but it ended up not being

1132
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 4: an argument. It was something that again was filled with assumptions,

1133
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 4: but we kind of talked about it a little bit.

1134
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 4: We did establish that we were going to try to

1135
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 4: hug when we were arguing, and Finn even said he

1136
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 4: was going to break out in a dance move, so

1137
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to seeing that. And we were able

1138
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 4: to read the chapter of seven Principles of Making a

1139
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 4: Marriage Work. It was really interesting to kind of reflect

1140
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 4: on the things that I did and brought into the relationship,

1141
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 4: and hearing Finn's perspective was helpful.

1142
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 3: The same thing on reading the book, I was able

1143
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 3: to see some of the stuff that I bring into

1144
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 3: the relationship that maybe I never realized and saw I

1145
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 3: write this chapter. So I feel like reading this chapter

1146
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 3: really did help out a lot. And the homework the

1147
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 3: all assign actually, I feel like just really helped us out.

1148
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 3: And we didn't argue.

1149
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 4: This week, And I think a lot of the reason

1150
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 4: why we didn't argue, which me and Finn talked about,

1151
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,439
Speaker 4: was being able to be more connected and feel more

1152
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 4: like friends almost even though we were never not friends,

1153
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 4: but just being able to hear some vulnerabilities from Finn

1154
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 4: and vice versa. We did go into the closet. We

1155
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 4: actually sat there for quite a while, more than five minutes,

1156
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 4: and we talked about some things about a relationship but

1157
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:13,479
Speaker 4: also some things that we need from each other, which

1158
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 4: was really nice.

1159
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 3: And it was connected there.

1160
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it was fun to see Finn so excited

1161
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 4: to do the homework. He like was actually like looking

1162
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 4: forward to it, and it was really nice to see that.

1163
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 4: And we were able to practice articulating the other person's

1164
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 4: perspective based off of a previous argument, not based off

1165
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 4: of a current one, since we didn't get into one,

1166
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 4: but we were able to kind of see each other's

1167
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 4: sides and argue those points. More than anything, we really

1168
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 4: want to thank you laur and Guy because we feel

1169
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 4: like you guys did a phenomenal job at being able

1170
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 4: to help us connect more and help us communicate better.

1171
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate you guys so much. Thank you for

1172
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 3: listening to us, thanks for giving us the opportunity to

1173
01:02:55,600 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 3: come onto the podcast, and once again, just I feel

1174
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 3: like it definitely improved our relationship with feeling more connected.

1175
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 3: So again, thank you' all very much.

1176
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 2: You know, NN is really getting curious about this relationship

1177
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 2: now and getting curious about how things work, and she

1178
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 2: is too. And when I hear that they had a

1179
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 2: conversation about the fact that they didn't really have an

1180
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 2: argument and what that's about, that's great. That's a couple

1181
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 2: who are starting to be self reflective, looking at what

1182
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 2: they're doing, how they're communicating, and getting curious about it.

1183
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 2: It is the best ingredient for good communication and for

1184
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 2: working on things.

1185
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 1: And that's so important. So we're not saying to them,

1186
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: don't argue. We're saying, when you have a disagreement, can

1187
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 1: you use the tools that we gave you curiosity looking

1188
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 1: at the four horsemen from the Gotman book, what are

1189
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 1: the assumptions? Can you articulate the other person's perspective? Can

1190
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: you go into that space, which for them was the closet.

1191
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 1: It was a nice safe place for them to go.

1192
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: And can you then be more vulnerable in that space

1193
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 1: of trust where you know it's not going to escalate?

1194
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 1: And I love also that they decided they're going to hug.

1195
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: That's going to be their signal to each other that

1196
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: they're escalating, and that Finn might break out into a

1197
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: dance move I think that's a brilliant strategy.

1198
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 2: I love it too. Finn is the police officer, Grace

1199
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 2: is a therapist. She's the one that's more emotional. But

1200
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 2: as we always say, there's a difference between what we

1201
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 2: express in terms of what we're feeling and what we're

1202
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 2: actually feeling, and both of them had really similar emotional

1203
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 2: responses to the assignment. Both of them felt really buoyed

1204
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,920
Speaker 2: by the flirtation. Finn really felt touched by the post

1205
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 2: it on the mirror. They were both excited to read

1206
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 2: the book and to discuss it. They both felt much

1207
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 2: more connected to one another and felt that that was

1208
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 2: important because they needed that. I think their emotional experience

1209
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 2: under the hood, away from what they actually projected the

1210
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 2: outside world, is really similar in that way, and which

1211
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 2: is great because they're both emotional, they're both of the

1212
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 2: capacity for it, and they both need that connection.

1213
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 1: I love guy what you say about connection, because when

1214
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: people are arguing, they're completely disconnected. They're not connecting in

1215
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: any way, shape or form. They're trying to prove their point.

1216
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: They feel unheard, they feel misunderstood, and everything that they

1217
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 1: did this week made them feel further connected. It built

1218
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 1: up the trust and that allows the space for curiosity,

1219
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 1: which is also why Grayson Finn, if you're listening, we'd

1220
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 1: like you to still do that first task that we

1221
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: gave you, which was to tell each other one thing

1222
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 1: from your history that you bring into this relationship. But

1223
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:40,960
Speaker 1: I do think guy, that they made good steps in

1224
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: starting to build trust and closeness and that that allows

1225
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 1: the space to hear each other, and even the flirting exercise,

1226
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 1: it just makes them feel more valued and held by

1227
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:53,919
Speaker 1: the other person, and that's the foundation that we all

1228
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:57,439
Speaker 1: need to feel understood in a relationship.

1229
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 2: Next week, a woman whose parents are pressuring her to

1230
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 2: get married and have a baby wanders how to set

1231
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 2: boundaries with her family.

1232
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 4: When I was twenty three, he would say, oh, no,

1233
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,959
Speaker 4: she doesn't need to get married yet. She's so young,

1234
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 4: she has time. And then you know, in a couple

1235
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 4: of years after that, all you're too old.

1236
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 3: You don't have time.

1237
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1238
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 1: free so you don't miss any episodes, and please help

1239
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: support your therapists by telling your friends about it and

1240
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 1: leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help

1241
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:31,720
Speaker 1: people to find the show.

1242
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1243
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:40,280
Speaker 2: email us at Lauriandguy at iHeartMedia dot Com. Our executive

1244
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 2: producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher,

1245
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 2: additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our

1246
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 2: intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our

1247
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 2: podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see

1248
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 2: you at our next session. The Therapist is a production

1249
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:09,400
Speaker 2: of iHeart Radio, Fish Food, h